They Changed My God

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Tahmed#153

Actually I read your interpretation of Islam too. From what I`ve read, it appears that you favour a broad and compassionate interpretation of Quran, keeping human virtues at the center. In other words, ``Pahle insaan phir bhagwan``.This sort of interpretation is clearly at variance with Asif N`s version which places Muslims( only Sunnis, Shias, Ahmadiyas et al. are Kafirs not to mention other religions) above other humans simply because of their beliefs. Till you follow your own mind instead of heeding to Mullas, you would always go on the right path. Hamidm, as I understand is critical of some of the religious beliefs which may have nothing to do with the human virtues. For example merely drinking alcohol followed by dozing off, doesn`t make one less morally upright than the other. Again IMO, deeds and deeds alone should be the criteria and NOT the beliefs.

Cheers

PS Perhaps Hamidm showed few signs of irritation quite unlike himself in responding to you. It could have been better had he not done so. All those who cticise others should accept their criticism with grace. May be this is the quality that separates us from the saints like Kabir, Rahim :-)

adnan_672 #160 aoa

``Do u really believe wht JR wrote was to get a better understanding of islam, i hope u r not that naive.``

If he is not sincere, then he would be joking. Why would anyone waste his time writing posts where he does not say what he means. What does he have to gain, and what do you have to lose? If people come to chowk, it is because they have common interests, otherwise there are millions of other web pages they could visit.

``u see tahmad sahab he actually asked for some parts of the Quran to be expunged, wht has been impossible to even comprehend for the last 1400 yrs, u want to make THAT a topic of discussion? ``

We should not be afraid to discuss anything. I have read the Quran carefully and am satisfied that it is a wonderful book and we can confidently discuss it with anyone. I think I responded to this part (already to JR) and if not will do so inshallah.

``and if u misunderstood my post it was definitely NOT a reply on ur behalf.``

OK.

``The only religion acceptable to these ppl. is one that does not interfere in their lives.``

I dont think there is any reason to assume this.

``tahmad i would give several examples from the quran which appear to be inconsistant IF u read the quran without the help of hadith. but it would not be appropriate here. (ex 2:62,5:51 etc etc, another 2:183, 2:196)``

Thanks. I shall plan to go over these verses and if necessary will seek further guidance from you on how to reconcile the inconsistencies you see or else provide my understanding.

``I did not want to start this line of argumentation but ur insistance on trying to read and understand the quran without guidance from the hadith (something which has been denounced by muslim jurists for 1400 yrs) forced me to give u some examples. I could go on and on, but the books i have suggested before will guide u a lot in this regard.``

Muslim jurists of 1400 years have no standing in Islam. They are mere mortals like you and me.

``No doubt u r a learned person, but it ``just`` might be possible that someone else had a better understanding of the book of Allah. So dont br allergic to reading the works of those who spent their entire lives trying to understand the book of Allah.``

You are very kind. I am sure there are people who have spent more time studying the Quran. This is a point you and I disagree on (and we have discussed it earlier): The Quran says that it is a book to make things simple and clear. It says that we should trust our eyes. When I read the Quran I find it is indeed simple and clear. Why should I not trust the Quran when it says this, but rather trust a person who says that the Quran really is not simple and clear and that I need to go by his explanation.

As I have said before, I believe you are a good man. And so I will appeal to you again to trust your eyes and your judgement and have the courage to reach your own conclusions based on studying the Quran. God will be with you, I am confident, when you do so. Rather than looking towards other people for guidance.

``Again if i have sounded harsh i apologize, i just meant to get thru to u my pt of view and why i think u r wrong in ur approach.``

You have never been harsh in your posts to me. In fact, it is I who tends to sometimes be harsh and perhaps even unfair in criticizing other people. I do hope that you will extend the same regard to our friend JR and people of other faiths.

JR #159 That is the post I just responded to.

JR #150 something. I did respond to a part of your post (see #136, and also subsequent post by krashid who very rightly corrected a misleading statement in my post which I then also discussed in response to krashid). Once again, you are very welcome to ask such questions and I am sure that Mr. Adnan, after further thought, will agree that it is in fact an honor for us muslims to have people express an interest in our religion.

I had (as promised in #136) said I would get back to you on your remaining questions, which I did but seems like chowk lost it in cyberspace. I`ll try to redo it sometime over the coming weekend.

Sadhna 162,

About a month ago, on the board, ``What Constitutes Blasphemy,`` Chowk was abuzz with the heady talk of the imminent `epic struggle` between the Pakistani secularists led by the armed forces and Pakistani fundamentalists. Some minister of theirs had bragged that he was going to control the forces of religious fanaticism. People here on Chowk reasoned that the `stakes were too high for Pakistan this time,` and that `this time the secularist armed forces meant serious business.`

This was seen as a magnificent new development. I had, with some sadness` made the following counter-predictions:

Feb-13-01 10:43:20 EST Reply #: 548

Eklavya (``What Constitutes Blasphemy`` board)

``I am afraid, however, that nothing of the sort (the suggested epic struggle) is going to happen. That struggle is taking place in Bangladesh. It will not happen in Pakistan. Pakistan is not Bangladesh.

...

...

``I will make more detailed predictions:

1. Terrorist killings in Kashmir are not going to decrease.

2. There will be NO CONTROL at all of free flow of arms within and across Pakistan.

3. Half-hearted attempts to bar display of arms will be made in Pakistan. Notice the focus on ``display.`` Lethal arms will continue to be available, tranported, and used in the service of religion in Pakistan as before.

4. India will not extend the ceasefire.

5. Pakistanis will blame India for everything.``

The only thing I have been wrong about was that India - acting most stupidly in my opinion - extended the ceasefire. Ofcourse, Pakistan still continues to blame India.

I will repeat what I had written then:

``These sombre predictions follow from a very different view of what Pakistan is all about (or, has become) and Musharraf`s personal character.``

I continue to hold those unpleasant beliefs. I wonder if people are still waiting for an `epic struggle.`

JR

U sir have a rather long nose (kinda reminds me of Pinocchios case)

anyways i will comment pointwise on ur posting and in all fairness U tell me wht genuine questions u raised?

``......convey that the Quoran has nothing to do with how the Jihadis and Maudoodis act. For a minute think if that will fly in a court of law ...``

well the jehadis r rt.

Try to recall ``safe havens`` in the Balkans, where was Europe and the rest of ur western civilization when ppl. were buthered there?? so it became ``us v.s them

ppl. massacared bodies burnt entire villages razed to ground in Sheeshan (Chechneya) wht was the ``civilized world doing`` kepping their nose out of Russia`s business.rt? again it became ``us v.s them

ppl. displaced from their homes, forced settlements, reign of terror by mossad, the west brazenly supported the Zionist fanatics in their madness, so it became ``us v.s them

and it goes on...................

Now do u find the answer to why it became ``us v.s them``?

ur western civilization loves democracy rt? yet in Algeria whn a Islam loving movement came to power thru the ballot wht happened, a bloody civil war, controlled by the west, so again it is......

The the west supports despotic regimes in the middle east and elsewhere when it suits her (good muslims refuse to identify themselves with these slave govts. installed in their countries), so resenment is natural.

``Christians, Buddhists and Hindus have crossed that bridge, but the Jews and Muslims still hang ......``

All religions DEMAND that, the christians are a miserable lot these days their church has become a big joke, its something like be a Christian on Sundays 9-11 then u r free ..........

``I fully admit that the original intent of the Quoran and its authors was noble and good, but ....``

My ignorant friend the Quran has no authors it is the book of Allah. Pl. learn the basics of any religion before declaring a crusade against it.

``I do not buy the argument that the Quoran and Sunnah are eternally good, it is the people who....``

Nobody cares.

``Islam must allow misleading verses to be expunged and must reform itself with a message that is more universal and human-``

Pl. define the message which is ``more universal and human`` and do give one example of where this is practised.

What were ur quetions, i found just rhetorical ones.

If u would genuinely like to understand islam i can give u a good reading list. but i really doubt it.

Adnan

Harpreet# 155

Scores of dohas of Kabir and Rahim that I crammed when I was young to beat the exams shows that the rote learning as prevalent in the Indian educational system, may be useful at times :-)

Well understanding their thoughts in proper perspective took me a few more years of analytic reasoning(not to mention some experience at chowk). The crux of all my thought processes can be summed up in one word, ``ideology``. An ideology is a set of well defined rules/guidelines, that is totalitarian in nature. It originally evolves to correct some of the evils in the social structure of the society. However once it succeeds, it assumes a totalitarian character and its blind adherents, emboldened by its success, seek to generalise it to all walks of life. They argue that this is to maintain the purity of idelogy. These should be called fundamentalists. Such ideologies bring immense suffering to mankind, since the are applied out of the context that lead to their evolution, a case of overgeneralisation and over simplification. Most of the organized religions, schools of thought like pure communism, capitalism, fall into the category of these ideologies. Take for example communism. It evolved to protect the rights of workers against capitalists who refused to share their profits with them. But later it transformed itself into an ideology that sought to establish ``dictatorship of proletariots`` swinging to the othewr extreme. It was generalised to all walks of life without analysing the validity of its applicability. Like Mao tried to destroy artifacts, religious symbols, Buddhist statues in China in order to implement ``total and unalloyed communism``. History was revised so as to depict it as a struggle between proletariots and capitalists. In short communist ideology sought to mould the daily life of people to fit its theory. Due to lack of time, I have left a lot unsaid, but thinking along these lines may show you how other idelogies as mentioned above have afflicted humanity though they originally evolved to correct a social imbalance. So let the ideas flow freely, without binding them in any ideology.

Eklavya#155

Ok ok ok... I hereby declare whatever I said in a previous posting be read as originally written by Eklavya. Sorry for this blunder and I hope Mr Eklavya would take not take my felony too harshly. :-)

Cheers

TAhmed 161:

:-)

That was very sweet!

I think I may have a viable solution. In fact, on second thoughts, I may have more than one options and I sure will get in touch with the ``right`` ones. No doubt, I could read something very clearly in thy posts.

Regards.

www.jang.com.pk
March 16 2001
Govt devises a new subtle profile for `Jehadi` movement

By Kamran Khan

KARACHI: After prolonged negotiations with the government agencies, the mainstream religious organisations, involved in armed struggle against the Indian armed forces in held Kashmir, have agreed to be discreet in their drive to collect donations and recruit volunteers. In return, the government has decided not to pursue - too aggressively - its pledge to force the closure of all such activity.

The announcement last month by the federal interior minister to launch an aggressive official campaign to uproot Jehad-related activities from the country had been contested with equal vigour by other influential government circles who thought that a rash official action may provoke an armed reaction from Jehadi elements and may push Pakistan to an internal strife of the scale currently being witnessed in Algiers, Egypt and Tunis.

Against the popular perception that the appeal and penetration of Jehadi organisations is restricted to the under-developed towns and villages of the country, the major cities are now witnessing a rapid expansion of these organisations. The Karachi police record showed that in a space of last one year the Jaishe Mohammad opened no less than 135 contact points that also serve as its recruitment and donation collection centres in the city.

Senior officials have informed The News that because of recent closed-door discussion with the heads of the leading Jehadi organisations, police and other law enforcement agencies have been told not to raid or use force against any Jehad-related facility in the country. The latest development has effectively reversed the dramatic announcement made by the interior minister Moinuddin Haider promising elimination of all such activity on February 13 last.

This unpublicised agreement between the Jehadi organisations and the government agencies smoothly functioned on Eid-ul-Azha when the authorities allowed the Jehadi organisations to collect animal hides worth tens of crores of rupees and for their part these organisations restrained their workers from setting up camps used in past to propagate Jehad and to associate the donations of animal hides to participation in Jehad.

Under the new arrangement the Jehadi organisations may not be able to make public appeals for recruitment but they will be allowed to maintain the contact points, including some mosques, to enlist the volunteers. As witnessed in recent past no Jehadi organisation would approach schools or colleges to seek volunteers for Jehad.

The contribution to Jehad will not be banned and the details of donations collected by the Jehadi organisations would not be submitted for tax deduction. Under the law even the charity organisations have to seek specific exemption from tax deduction from the CBR. The Jehadi organisations have agreed to abide by the government`s announcement against the public display of weapons.

The federal government is convinced that the main Jehadi organisations such as Lashkare Taiba, Jaishe Mohammad, Hizbul Mujahideen and Harkatul Mujahideen have no role in the present sectarian strife that had left more than 300 people killed in the first 15 months of the military government. The federal government gencies are also sure that the mainstream Jehadi organisations only carry out their operations in active collaboration with Indian Kashmiris in occupied Kashmir.

A soft corner for Jehadi movement in the military circles is also bolstered by a view that the Kashmiri freedom struggle has already reached its decisive phase and soon the Indian government would rush for a negotiated settlement. These officials think that an outright support and assistance to the Kashmiri freedom struggle is absolutely vital at this stage. Several officials who had spoken to The News on this subject thought that the military operations to be launched by the Kashmiri freedom fighters in the coming summer may prove decisive in this advance stage of the freedom struggle against the Indian rule.

Background interviews with the concerned officials revealed a severe dilemma griping the national security officials on Pakistan`s Jehadi movement. These officials concede that the international pressure on Islamabad to curb the Jehadi elements has grown unbearable in recent months, while on the other hand, these officials feel that they didn`t have the decisive control over the activities of the Jehadi groups.

Sources said that the military government was particularly concerned in December last year when it discovered that the Lashkare Taiba was directly responsible for launching an armed attack against an Indian army camp at the Red Fort in New Delhi. Sources said the attack demonstrated Pakistan`s diminishing influence over the activities of Jehadi groups inside India.

Western pressure on Pakistan to curb Jehadi elements, officials said, is principally rooted in Washington where the Indo-Israeli lobby was said to be active in influencing the US public opinion and decision making quarters against the Kashmiri freedom struggle and its supporters in Pakistan. Although the former US President Bill Clinton had spent a substantial chunk of his six-hour stay in Islamabad last year in expressing his concern about the proliferation of eligious extremism in Pakistan, the US pressure on this subject reached its peak in June last year.

During a secret visit to Pakistan in June last year the director of the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) George J Tenet visited the ISI headquarters in Islamabad to narrate the US concerns emanating from the growing religious fundamentalism in Pakistan. The CIA chief during this visit spoke candidly about the nexus between the Pakistani Jehadi organisations and Osama bin Laden.

The CIA chief had also met Chief Executive General Pervez Musharraf to suggest measures and actions that may prove that Pakistan was distancing from elements involved in international terrorism. Tenet had also met with the interior inister Moinuddin Haider.

Officials said the Musharraf administration seemed not impressed by the US views and opinion about the elements involved in the battle against Indian occupation of Kashmir from the Pakistani side and the military government is not prepared to offer any assurances to the US that may alter the path of freedom struggle in Kashmir. This was made abundantly clear, sources said, when the new US Central Command Chief General Tommy R Franks met with the chief executive in January this year.

General Franks was the highest level US government official who had visited Pakistan since CIA chief`s secret visit to Islamabad in June last year.

Military observers noted that the ongoing Kashmiri freedom struggle serves as the principal element in the glue that binds Pakistani military leadership. Four days after General Franks` visit to Pakistan the corps commanders who had met for a routine meeting at the GHQ under General Pervez Musharraf resolved not to accept any western pressure that may subvert the cause of Kashmiri people.

During the same conference in January, Foreign Minister Abdus Sattar had been invited to brief the commanders about the issues related to the foreign policy. The foreign minister, while speaking on the international image of Pakistan with reference to the activities of Jehadi elements in Pakistan, was met with intense queries by several senior officials who thought that any aggressive actions against the Jehadi groups would be extremely counter-productive.

Throughout his tenure as the Chief Executive, General Musharraf had been urging his international guests, that mostly include the western public opinion makers, to distinguish between any terrorist movement and the people involved in the battle to liberate Kashmir. Gen Musharraf had been telling the western audience to use their influence to bring India on a conference table as it provides an ultimate answer to resolution of rising Islamic militancy in the region.

Zahra #135 Your story reminded me of some wine bottles that are collecting dust in the cabinet. These were given over the years by people visiting who were unaware that muslims generally dont drink. Since this is a common custom in the US and it would not be nice to ask guests to take their gifts back, I have simply taken them and telling these people (more sincerely then they will ever know) that ``they shouldnt have``. Then I put them away in the cabinet. Since wine is supposed to improve with age, I now am the proud owner of a fine collection of vintage wines, the oldest being 18 years old :-) Trouble is, what on earth do I do with them since we neither drink nor serve drinks in the house to guests.

Your post reminded me of this problem that I need to take address. Here are three possibilities I thought of (a) give them to charity. The downside is that even if a charity accepted them, it would hardly be a good idea to give them to people who are already winos. (b) break the seals and flush em down the toilet, and chuck the bottles in the recycling bin. This is a viable possibility. However, it reminds me too much of the commercial about grown men crying over a broken whisky bottle; (c) pass it on as a gift to people who have some use for the stuff. However, it does not seem right to pass on gifts given to oneself; (d) mail them to Kabul, in case they still have some ammo left after saving the world from those raging Buddhas. Not a good idea - knowing those people, they would probably drink it and then tell their countrymen of the glorious fight battle they undertook to destroy the evil liquid. And their sins for drinking and then lying would be on my shoulders; (e) sell them to a liquor shop and give the proceeds to charity in Pakistan (where a dollar translates into lots and lots of real money). One could call it the ``Wine Sale Scholarship Fund``....Naah! On second thought, that does not sound right either.

One day I shall have a solution. Till then, the wine sits in a dark corner inside a closet, out of sight and out of mind. Silently and peacefully ageing, improving it`s vintage with every passing year.

tahmed:

Do u really believe wht JR wrote was to get a better understanding of islam, i hope u r not that naive.

u see tahmad sahab he actually asked for some parts of the Quran to be expunged, wht has been impossible to even comprehend for the last 1400 yrs, u want to make THAT a topic of discussion?

and if u misunderstood my post it was definitely NOT a reply on ur behalf.

The only religion acceptable to these ppl. is one that does not interfere in their lives.

tahmad i would give several examples from the quran which appear to be inconsistant IF u read the quran without the help of hadith. but it would not be appropriate here. (ex 2:62,5:51 etc etc, another 2:183, 2:196)

I did not want to start this line of argumentation but ur insistance on trying to read and understand the quran without guidance from the hadith (something which has been denounced by muslim jurists for 1400 yrs) forced me to give u some examples. I could go on and on, but the books i have suggested before will guide u a lot in this regard.

No doubt u r a learned person, but it ``just`` might be possible that someone else had a better understanding of the book of Allah. So dont br allergic to reading the works of those who spent their entire lives trying to understand the book of Allah.

Again if i have sounded harsh i apologize, i just meant to get thru to u my pt of view and why i think u r wrong in ur approach.

wassalaam

adnan

#162 Adnan:

``Get ur nose OUT of OUR business``

I gladly would if you kept your jihadis out of other people`s business.

Like GK chesterton said, ``Your freedom ends where my nose begins``.

Also, you are not able to counter any of the points I raised. Your immediate response is a personal attack. Is it possible for you who are so well learned in your religion to intelligently address even one of the issues raised. No. You can`t. You would not be such a blind, unquestioning follower if you had better faculties.

The so called custodians of organized religion prize people like yourself who follow like sheep.

Harpreet 155

et tu Harpreet!

Well, there is no defending one`s hard earned copyrights in these evil times. I hereby rescind all my claims :)

IMO Kabir may have become one of the pillars of an organized religion but spirits of both Nanak and Kabir truly live on in Sikhism. There is a loony fringe everywhere.

Pankaj 149

Pankaj, I have the copyright on comparing hamidm to Kabir! I did that first, first, first ....:)

But you are absolutely right. It is people like Kabir and Nanak who found the true path of religion.

As far as I know Kabir was a Muslim. Thus, he should be a beacon of light for both Indians and Pakistanis. In India, (northern India - I wish Kabir had written in southern languages too!) every child reads and learns Kabir`s dohas. That shapes the way Indian children come to think of the world around them. Reading and internalizing Kabir does not eliminate all prejudice but surely opens one`s eyes.

Harpreet #155
``..the irony of his becoming a pillar of an organised religion, with an equal number of lapsed and un-righteous hypocrites as any other religion would not have been lost on him, I suspect...``

Its even more ironical that there is a sect called Kabir Panthis having to struggle in the modern day to maintain a distinct identity.