They Changed My God

PM #247:

Motivation you ask?

Must I have a hidden agenda? I dont.

I am a seeker and an activist. I want to ask questions, tough ones, to see if there truly is something good behind the hype..because if there is then I want to be part of it.

But, all I face is `shut up`, `dont ask`, `believe without question`, `faith` etc.

Religion in the 21st century needs to cater to an educated, questioning, reasoning individual. Yes, there are thousands of sheep who follow without question. But I am not one of them. I asked a sheikh the same questions I raised and he refused to answer. He threatened me that I would face the wrath of Allah because I questioned.

My take, I know Allah wants me to question.

You can probably relate to the following, Patrick. I believe there is a story in the bible about a master giving his 2 servants `talents` before he left on a long trip. On his return, one of the servants showed the master how he buried his talents and brought back exactly what was given him. The other servant however, brought back much more because he had put his talents to work and created more for himself and his master. The Master rewards the one who put his talents to use and is displeased with the other.

I believe God has given us all our faculties to use at all times. i personally think it is a disgrace if we conveniently and selectively suspend our rationality and reasoning.

Greetings

It is just outstanding. Would you please point me to Urdu version or e-Mail as and attchment. Thank you.

Your humble

Mazhar

Re: TAhmed

``And how does man benefit from religion: by rising above his animal instincts.``

Animals are less destructive than we are. At least in terms of killing their own species. Humans specialize in that and are helped along by religion.

The Bible says ``God created Man in His own image.``

Should it be the other way round? Man created God in his own image... even Islam that does not believe in images has assigned a (male) gender to God...

Even the most backward, isolated society of any time has worshipped God in some form of the other, with similar qualities - all powerful, giver of bounties, punisher of evil-doers... how is the God of one group different from that of others, basically?

I think one thing that distinguishes man from animals is the ability to believe in a God... and fight about it...

JR #246 You make some thoughtful points. I may add that it goes to your credit that you do so after what must have seemed a rather harsh post from me. I`ll get back to these (need to get to some mundane stuff now like preparing for a busy day coming up).

Rsaxena: Agreed. God is probably not a space alien who created the universe as a class project. I look at it this way: Religion is not there because God needs it. It is there for the benefit of man. And how does man benefit from religion: by rising above his animal instincts. Another thought for the day :-)

Bystander: Welcome sir and thanks for your comments on this thread.

JR:

Are wagers being accpeted on your `prediction`? Here`s my $20 that says it will come true. One caveat: more circularity and evasiveness must not be mistaken for a refutation. :)

I think you`re cool, but wonder what the motivation is. You think obviously otherwise intelligent folks don`t see what you see? Reminds me of a quote of Russell, which I`ll do violence with: ``What power has reason in the presence of faith?``

later,

PM

Tahmed #240:

``JR #231 Thanks for the salute, but I dont think there is anything I can say to convince you (a) Islam does not sanction religious killing. I find it incredibly bad manners to insult other people`s

religions so easily as you do (and as Sadna was doing earlier until I had to thank her and wish her a good day). I presented you examples of killings done in the name of Hinduism, but you brush that of as being somehow justified. And I made it clear that I condemned the thugs who killed innocent children, not Hinduism. This is more courtesy than I have received from you when you keep telling me that Islam condones killing. (b) I gave you the example of the DNA to illustrate something I will have to put more bluntly now: you sir are penny wise pound foolish; you read focus on digits on the right side of the decimal, not the left side; you focus on form, not substance. You talk about reforming Islam, and your definition of reform is to re-organize the book. Ask a babu in the sub-continent what is good accounting and he will tell you one where debits equal credits. You will never find it possible to make him understand that there more to accounting than that.``

I dont know why you took a sudden turn? But, where have I in my post condoned Hindu religious violence? Also, you say I insulted Islam. Please sir be real, if questioning something is insulting then are you asking me to leave my brains behind when I come in to pray?

I knew you would never cross that line and admit that there are many not so noble verses in the Quran. I told you before, that you would predictably stop right there.

Also, sir you are very good with convoluted explanations - your most recent is Accountancy?

Final - Simple questions- Do you think that there are verses in the Quran that are demeaning to women and followers of other faiths?

Yes or No answer please - no DNA and accountancy, okay!

Do you think there are verses in the quran that are confusing and contradictory?

Do you think there are verses in the Quran that are time specific?

Do you think there are verses in the Quran that encourage violence to people of other faiths?

Prediction - I bet you will not answer, because it takes courage to say something is not right, even though for 1400 years people have said everything in it is right and timeless.

Also, you can accuse me all you want, but I am not insulting you or Islam. I am just asking some questions as a person who has read the Quran, the bible, the Torahs, Mahabharatha, Ramayana and the Gita.

Also, please do not assume that I follow a particular faith. I dont. I believe in God and trust all religions lead there, but I disagree with fanatics who say their religion is the true faith.

Remember the anecdore about God (mill owner) and the cotton pickers. In the final analysis, God does not ask the cotton pickers which road they took to get to the mill, but asked them what was the quality of the cotton they each have.

So sir, are you about the quality of the cotton or about which road you took to get the cotton to the mill?

Re: TAhmed

``Actually I had mentioned the Flat Earth Society in connection with the Atheists Society since both have a few things in common: both are a bit quaint and outdated by now; both are based on assumptions (saying there is no God is just as much an assumption as saying there is one).``

You do know that it was the Church which wanted to kill Galileo and other astronomers for suggesting that the Earth was neither flat nor the center of the universe, right?

``Personally, I think that what we are finding out through science indicates that the likelihood of our being the only consciousness is almost negligible.``

I fully agree with that. But I can`t accept some alien from outside the Milky Way as God!

Rsaxena: Actually I had mentioned the Flat Earth Society in connection with the Atheists Society since both have a few things in common: both are a bit quaint and outdated by now; both are based on assumptions (saying there is no God is just as much an assumption as saying there is one). Personally, I think that what we are finding out through science indicates that the likelihood of our being the only consciousness is almost negligible. In order to believe in God we dont need to imagine what He is like either. Just that we are part of a much bigger story. The fact that religion has been made into a means for insulting one another on chowk and other forums is the fault of the individuals concerned, not religion.

JR #231 Thanks for the salute, but I dont think there is anything I can say to convince you (a) Islam does not sanction religious killing. I find it incredibly bad manners to insult other people`s religions so easily as you do (and as Sadna was doing earlier until I had to thank her and wish her a good day). I presented you examples of killings done in the name of Hinduism, but you brush that of as being somehow justified. And I made it clear that I condemned the thugs who killed innocent children, not Hinduism. This is more courtesy than I have received from you when you keep telling me that Islam condones killing. (b) I gave you the example of the DNA to illustrate something I will have to put more bluntly now: you sir are penny wise pound foolish; you read focus on digits on the right side of the decimal, not the left side; you focus on form, not substance. You talk about reforming Islam, and your definition of reform is to re-organize the book. Ask a babu in the sub-continent what is good accounting and he will tell you one where debits equal credits. You will never find it possible to make him understand that there more to accounting than that.

Reform is indeed needed. It is needed in the hearts and minds of South Asians. Among Indians no less than among Pakistanis. And among the arrogant and opinionated middle and upper classes more than in anyone else. The Quran, the Vedas, even the Buddhas that were destroyed recently, are not the problem. It is the lousy education system and degenerate cultural traditions that produces people who have nothing better to do than find fault in everything rather than appreciating them.

Sorry if I have offended you, particularly after your nice compliment, but I think it is better to be honest than polite.

Re: Urstruly

``Jehad is one of the necessary Rukan of Islam. It cannot be tonned down and cannot be left out.``

You are right.

Zahra ...and Urstruly,

I am quite well aware of the pillars of Islam and the importance of prayer.

My only contention is that a beautiful message has been distorted and is, whether you agree or not, the cause for major concern at a global level.

Check Urstruly`s last post. The wrong Jehad seems to be very high on the list of some people.

Here is why I think Urstruly`s def of Jehad is wrong.

`Activism` is what Jehad is. Every human must be an activist against evil. Each one must ofcourse use extreme caution and definitely give the benefit of the doubt to those who he believes are evil.

Reason: Good and Evil are relative to a large extent and very subjective and based on a case by case basis.

One cannot just assume somebody else is wrong and take law into his own hands and punish him. The judgement part and punishment part are Gods prerogative. Making that perpetrator and others aware of the bad that is being done is the most important facet of Jehad.. not the part of killing someone because you think he is wrong. Because, again, if most people used their brains, what good comes of killing and mayhem? Ultimately does that solve the problem and rid the evil? No. Is it not a better Jehad to raise awareness to the evil and highlight the human suffering and ill effects of something bad that is being done. This is a message that will reach a wider audience. Just putting a bullet in somebody`s head does not solve the problem and is not Jehad.

Also, where in the Quran does it say Jehad is to be faught only against members of other faiths?

What about the Jehad against members of the own faith who are as evil?

Also, why selective Jehad?

Islam is begging for reform and the flock are running helter skelter doing all the wrong things. The message needs to be focused and real. People forget we are not using swords anymore and .. drum roll.. we are not bedouin.

Just imagine if Jehad by sword was elevated to Jehad by Nuclear bombs...

Again, Please let us use our brains. Even the slightest effort to think through things without prejudice and filters will make things a lot clearer.

Zahra

A correction to your post:

The following items that you have attributed as pillars are actually ``components`` i.e. Arkan if I have translated it right:

Tauheed, Namaz, Roza, Zakat, and Haj.

The seven pillars i.e. basic beleives on which the concept of Islam is built upon:

1. Oneness of God
2. Mohammad being his messenger and last prophet.
3. Belief in Qyamat-that is the end of the world
4. Belief in the Qudrat i.e. God being the absolute
5. Belief in the books, scriptures, and Qurran being the last book
6. Belief in previous prophets
7. Belief in heavenly beings - angels etc.

So there is difference between pillars and components. The sixth componenet i.e. Rukan then is Jehad. It is not rubbish and cant be tonned down. There definitely are catagories of Jehad:

1. Jehad-bil-Lissan i.e. Jehad with your speech which is considered the best of all when you stand up against a tyrrant.

2. Jehad-bil-Qalam i.e. Jehad with your pen. It is same as the first one.

3. Jehad-bi-Saif :Jehad with your sword i.e. the last resort when all the avenues of compromise are closed.

4. Jehad-bil-Maal: Jihad with your wealth i.e. supporting the cause of Jihad with your money-also one of the best.

5. The lowest but not the last catagory of Jihad is when you are incapable of doing any one of the above but in your heart you consider what is wrong is wrong.

Zahra:
Jehad is one of the necessary Rukan of Islam. It cannot be tonned down and cannot be left out. There are as many verses that support and compel as to go on Jihad as there are for Namaz and other Arkan.

Sweet JR:

I ran into your following post a few days back and checked my conscience to see if it was still alive after that episode: I heard a voice saying, ``I am here...I am here...`` then I thought I better add my two dollars worth as well.

[To a person with a conscience is this right?
A little baby girl born in another faith - is she a kufr. Is she a lesser human and are the doors of heaven not open to her because she is not a Muslim? ]

I think we have given far more importance to Jehad because of the freedom movements going on in Kashmir and Afghanistan. The five main pillars of Islam are: Tauheed, Namaz, Roza, Zakat, and Haj. The current day and age Muslims have left the main elements behind and have taken up Jehad as a substitute for everything[apparently] - which is quite rubbish. There are clear cut instructions on when Jehad should be taken and when it should not be. There were quite a few stories associated with the Holy Prophet(PBUH). Someone had an elderly mother and he wanted to go for Jehad and the Holy Prophet asked him to stay back and take care of his elderly mother as that was equivalent to going for the Jehad. Rights of fellow human beings.

A prostitute was kind to a hungry stray cat and was sent to heaven, whereas a very pious woman was not - for poorly treating a fellow human being[or animal] I do not exactly remember.

There are many stories that will give thee a picture of true Islam. Remember Haqooqul-Ibaad[Rights of Human Beings] was always given preference over Haqooq-Allah [Rights of God].

[I want the true Islam that says everyone is welcome, there is no need to be a particualar way, dress or speak or act a particular way - the only message is be true to God and yourself.]

Well, I am not sure why you are getting a message otherwise. I completely agree with the gist of your thought, but there are certain elements which are very definitive. There are certain pillars that will stand there whether you want to abide by them or not.

I will give another example: I am a die-hard believer on Duaa`. But I have also read and have been told that Duas do not get accepted if you are not regular in your prayers. Do I stop offering my Duaas? No. I make an effort to offer my prayers regularly to get the best out of my Duas`. Am I 100% successful? No. Should I stop praying to God because I missed one prayer. No!
Just like you make an effort in everything in life, this effort is worth the reward as well. Why not?

Also, on my previous comment, Haqooqul-Ibaad was not applicable to Muslims only. Nowhere have I ever read that Non-Muslims are animals, so they should be regarded that way. Please do not misread and misconstrue things and create confusions for yourself. Also, Quran is spelled as ``Q.U.R.A.N`` without any ``Os.``


JR: Life is too short. Do not add complexities in your life by wasting time on KKK mentalities and etc. If you have a good heart and you feel that your connection with Allah Ta`ala is alive then it`s between you and God; why bring the whole world in the picture to applaud you and your beliefs. You do not need that, provided you are secured. You do not seem secured. You want a pat on your back for something that is bothering you. Or something you want to get rid of - And I am not sure what? I have just skimmed through your post and had this feeling and I am in my own train of thoughts so I do not have any clue on what I have written and where I am. I will stop.

Later,

Take Care.

Re: JR

You wrote to krashid:

``Sir, is there a better way for you to express yourself, because you are not getting thru at all.``

I think his only alternative means of communication is chemical secretions. I don`t think you will understand those either.

Re: JR

You wrote to krashid:

``Sir, is there a better way for you to express yourself, because you are not getting thru at all.``

I think his only alternative means of communication is chemical secretions. I don`t think you will understand those either.