A Kiss on the Cheek
Raza Latif March 18, 2001
#48 Posted by Asim on March 21, 2001 2:31:22 pm
Re: Chowk and Sex
Well the birds do it, and so do the bees. Even the priests at Vatican do it with the nuns. Read all about it. Is this the sort of mirch masala you were referring to Ras Sahib.
Asim
P.S i am looking forward to your existnsial eulogy for the messiah who will save Pakistan from utter chaos, and hopeless ness, the right honourable(the irony!), Allah Rakhi, Miss Benazir Bhutto. :)
Report: Priests, Missionaries Sexually Abuse Nuns
By Steve Pagani
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Vatican (news - web sites) acknowledged Tuesday a damning report that some priests and missionaries were forcing nuns to have sex with them, and were in some cases committing rape and forcing the victims to have abortions.
Some nuns were forced to take the contraceptive pill, the report cited in the Rome daily la Repubblica said.
The Vatican said the issue was restricted to a certain geographical area, but the report cited cases in 23 countries, including the United States, Brazil, the Philippines, India, Ireland and Italy.
``The stories are horrifying and disturbing to say the least,`` said Bill Ryan, spokesman for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.
However he added that he was not aware of anything similar in the United States.
``The National Catholic Reporter... offered no documentation for that. I don`t know how you would investigate something like that unless you had specifics or a charge,`` he added.
The charges first appeared in the Kansas City-based National Catholic Reporter weekly on March 16 and in a small Italian religious news agency Adista, which also publishes a weekly.
Limit Of Human Endurance
Missionary news agency MISNA condemned the abuse while recalling that missionaries often worked ``at the limit of human endurance.`` It urged the media to remember the good deeds of missionaries around the world as well as their failings.
A Vatican statement said ``in relation to the news of cases of sexual abuse against nuns committed by priests and missionaries, Chief Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls had the following announcement:
``The problem is known about and is restricted to a certain geographical area.
``The Holy See is dealing with the issue in collaboration with bishops, the Union of Superiors General (grouping of heads of male religious orders) and the International Union of Superiors General (heads of female religious orders).``
While the Vatican did not name the geographical area, the report said most incidents of sexual abuse against nuns occurred in Africa where the nuns were identified as ``safe`` following the onset of the HIV (news - web sites) and AIDS (news - web sites) viruses devastating the continent.
Nuns Forced To Abort
Charges made in the report, signed with names and surnames, were made known to Church authorities on several occasions throughout the 1990s, the article by la Repubblica`s respected Vatican correspondent Marco Politi said.
The author of the report was nun and physician Maura O`Donohue, who presented it to the head of the Vatican`s Congregation for Holy Orders, Cardinal Martinez Somalo, in February 1995.
He ordered a working group from the Congregation to study the problem with O`Donohue, who was AIDS coordinator for Cafod, the London-based Roman Catholic Fund for Overseas Development.
O`Donohue made specific reference to certain cases, one in which a priest forced a nun to have an abortion, after which she died. He then officiated at her requiem mass.
In reference to Africa, her report said: ``It is impossible (there) for a woman or an adolescent to refuse a man, especially an older man and in particular a priest.``
In Africa, certain priests sought out nuns ``for fear of contracting AIDS with prostitutes.``
``There are cases in which priests make nuns take the pill, ...and there was one case of 20 nuns in one religious community being pregnant at the same time,`` the article cited the report as saying.
A mother superior was continually ignored by the local bishop when she complained that priests in the diocese had made 29 of her nuns pregnant. The bishop relieved her of her duties, the report said without identifying the diocese.
Sexual Favors
In 1998, Marie McDonald, mother superior of the Missionaries of Our Lady of Africa, presented her report on ``sexual abuse and rape committed by priests and bishops.``
The Vatican is monitoring the situation, making sure bishops were aware of the phenomenon, but no direct action has been taken, the article said.
Vatican spokesman Navarro-Valls said in his statement: ``We are working on two fronts, training of people and finding a solution to individual cases.
``Some negative cases cannot let us forget the often heroic faith expressed by the large majority of those men and women in religious orders and of the clergy.``
MISNA echoed his words, saying: ``If on the one hand... these incidents of alleged sexual abuse cannot and should not be denied or justified, on the other hand they prompt us to reflect on the conditions in which the majority of the tens of thousands of missionaries live on the fringes of the so-called Third World.
``Many of them live in situations of extreme psychological and physical hardship, at the limits of human endurance.``
La Repubblica quoted McDonald as she knew of no inspections taking place after her report.
``Then there is the conspiracy of silence which makes the problem worse. Only if we confront this together, will we be able to find a solution,`` she said.
Well the birds do it, and so do the bees. Even the priests at Vatican do it with the nuns. Read all about it. Is this the sort of mirch masala you were referring to Ras Sahib.
Asim
P.S i am looking forward to your existnsial eulogy for the messiah who will save Pakistan from utter chaos, and hopeless ness, the right honourable(the irony!), Allah Rakhi, Miss Benazir Bhutto. :)
Report: Priests, Missionaries Sexually Abuse Nuns
By Steve Pagani
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - The Vatican (news - web sites) acknowledged Tuesday a damning report that some priests and missionaries were forcing nuns to have sex with them, and were in some cases committing rape and forcing the victims to have abortions.
Some nuns were forced to take the contraceptive pill, the report cited in the Rome daily la Repubblica said.
The Vatican said the issue was restricted to a certain geographical area, but the report cited cases in 23 countries, including the United States, Brazil, the Philippines, India, Ireland and Italy.
``The stories are horrifying and disturbing to say the least,`` said Bill Ryan, spokesman for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.
However he added that he was not aware of anything similar in the United States.
``The National Catholic Reporter... offered no documentation for that. I don`t know how you would investigate something like that unless you had specifics or a charge,`` he added.
The charges first appeared in the Kansas City-based National Catholic Reporter weekly on March 16 and in a small Italian religious news agency Adista, which also publishes a weekly.
Limit Of Human Endurance
Missionary news agency MISNA condemned the abuse while recalling that missionaries often worked ``at the limit of human endurance.`` It urged the media to remember the good deeds of missionaries around the world as well as their failings.
A Vatican statement said ``in relation to the news of cases of sexual abuse against nuns committed by priests and missionaries, Chief Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls had the following announcement:
``The problem is known about and is restricted to a certain geographical area.
``The Holy See is dealing with the issue in collaboration with bishops, the Union of Superiors General (grouping of heads of male religious orders) and the International Union of Superiors General (heads of female religious orders).``
While the Vatican did not name the geographical area, the report said most incidents of sexual abuse against nuns occurred in Africa where the nuns were identified as ``safe`` following the onset of the HIV (news - web sites) and AIDS (news - web sites) viruses devastating the continent.
Nuns Forced To Abort
Charges made in the report, signed with names and surnames, were made known to Church authorities on several occasions throughout the 1990s, the article by la Repubblica`s respected Vatican correspondent Marco Politi said.
The author of the report was nun and physician Maura O`Donohue, who presented it to the head of the Vatican`s Congregation for Holy Orders, Cardinal Martinez Somalo, in February 1995.
He ordered a working group from the Congregation to study the problem with O`Donohue, who was AIDS coordinator for Cafod, the London-based Roman Catholic Fund for Overseas Development.
O`Donohue made specific reference to certain cases, one in which a priest forced a nun to have an abortion, after which she died. He then officiated at her requiem mass.
In reference to Africa, her report said: ``It is impossible (there) for a woman or an adolescent to refuse a man, especially an older man and in particular a priest.``
In Africa, certain priests sought out nuns ``for fear of contracting AIDS with prostitutes.``
``There are cases in which priests make nuns take the pill, ...and there was one case of 20 nuns in one religious community being pregnant at the same time,`` the article cited the report as saying.
A mother superior was continually ignored by the local bishop when she complained that priests in the diocese had made 29 of her nuns pregnant. The bishop relieved her of her duties, the report said without identifying the diocese.
Sexual Favors
In 1998, Marie McDonald, mother superior of the Missionaries of Our Lady of Africa, presented her report on ``sexual abuse and rape committed by priests and bishops.``
The Vatican is monitoring the situation, making sure bishops were aware of the phenomenon, but no direct action has been taken, the article said.
Vatican spokesman Navarro-Valls said in his statement: ``We are working on two fronts, training of people and finding a solution to individual cases.
``Some negative cases cannot let us forget the often heroic faith expressed by the large majority of those men and women in religious orders and of the clergy.``
MISNA echoed his words, saying: ``If on the one hand... these incidents of alleged sexual abuse cannot and should not be denied or justified, on the other hand they prompt us to reflect on the conditions in which the majority of the tens of thousands of missionaries live on the fringes of the so-called Third World.
``Many of them live in situations of extreme psychological and physical hardship, at the limits of human endurance.``
La Repubblica quoted McDonald as she knew of no inspections taking place after her report.
``Then there is the conspiracy of silence which makes the problem worse. Only if we confront this together, will we be able to find a solution,`` she said.
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#47 Posted by saleha anjum on March 21, 2001 2:31:22 pm
Hi,
I have been a victim of such a marriage too but just as you wrote how your life changed makes me believe i was not the only one.I remember crying my heart out just before my `mehndi` but the night of mehndi when his flight landed and i saw him after four years of traumatic period of nikah,i was no different either.i did inquire myself ``what is this?`` but i guess his handsome face was an answer to everything.fears were always there but i think everything changes.
take care
I have been a victim of such a marriage too but just as you wrote how your life changed makes me believe i was not the only one.I remember crying my heart out just before my `mehndi` but the night of mehndi when his flight landed and i saw him after four years of traumatic period of nikah,i was no different either.i did inquire myself ``what is this?`` but i guess his handsome face was an answer to everything.fears were always there but i think everything changes.
take care
#45 Posted by hamidm on March 21, 2001 2:31:22 pm
....matches are made in heaven ....... arranged marriages are made by committees of cruel angelic jokesters in heaven - the same people who designed the camel and the ford pinto .......... but since the purpose of marriage is procreation -a lot of procreation with a little bit of mediocre sex thrown in - then arranged marriages do serve the purpose ...... clean dishes and a perfectly manicured yard are a bonus ........ and who needs a soul mate, when you can pour your heart out to neeli after all the other tamash-beens have left the sanctity of her kotha, or sally, the bartender, after that second very dry martini .........
#44 Posted by Asim on March 21, 2001 2:31:22 pm
Re: Rsaxena
`` there are a bunch of perverts talking about suhaag raats on this one. What next?``
Whats next?
Dual postings from unsuspecting readers, as if the weight of the brilliant ideas of us all once was not enough. Patiently waiting to see if this posting also gets reporoduced twice, like the numerous others on this thread, leading one to conjecture wildly,..``What`s up with the bulletinboard software``
What is a suhag rat? Surely you dont mean the bride!
Asim
`` there are a bunch of perverts talking about suhaag raats on this one. What next?``
Whats next?
Dual postings from unsuspecting readers, as if the weight of the brilliant ideas of us all once was not enough. Patiently waiting to see if this posting also gets reporoduced twice, like the numerous others on this thread, leading one to conjecture wildly,..``What`s up with the bulletinboard software``
What is a suhag rat? Surely you dont mean the bride!
Asim
#43 Posted by Urstruly on March 21, 2001 12:17:16 pm
There is something wrong here. Men are wasting their lives building their careers and women are wasting theirs finding someone with a career. Men with career look for those women who have not started looking for the men with career yet and those women who have waited for men with career look for the men whom they will love (or vice versa).
I think it should be a criminal offense not to get married before 20 for both men and women. It is a sheer waste of Chemical energy i.e. hormones.
I think it should be a criminal offense not to get married before 20 for both men and women. It is a sheer waste of Chemical energy i.e. hormones.
#42 Posted by Zehra on March 21, 2001 11:59:19 am
syed ahmed #40. took me a while to realize that was aimed at me.
the third party or whomever is there has come to see the real me. why shall i hide my humor wit and charm? so that i can get married and hide `the real me` for the rest of my life? now that would be wasting their time. if they dont know my politics from the get go, its pointless. wouldnt you agree?
this whole picture and resume exchange is what i find demeaning. i mean, as if that tells you who the person really is. this woman asked me, so beta, what do you want to do with your life, and i told her i want to make films and pretty much be doing what i am right now..she said, but if you get married, you don`t have to do that anymore and grinned at me woman to woman...i was so disgusted by her sugguesting that i didnt need a life after i married her prince charming that i told her marriage really didnt have a place in my life.
and just so that you know and not be sooo naive, when people want to meet you, it doesnt mater if you dont want to meet them...my parents have turned people away but they still find ways to come over and gawk and pester and ask stupid questions. they think that once we will see their chand ka tukra we will automatically fall on our knees, change our mind and get married.
on a final note, i have nothing against marriage..i mean to get married some day..just to someone i love. not too much to ask, is it?
:)
sadaf, that is sad that at 24 you are turning away from idealism. work on not doing so if it is bothering you :)
rizvi
the third party or whomever is there has come to see the real me. why shall i hide my humor wit and charm? so that i can get married and hide `the real me` for the rest of my life? now that would be wasting their time. if they dont know my politics from the get go, its pointless. wouldnt you agree?
this whole picture and resume exchange is what i find demeaning. i mean, as if that tells you who the person really is. this woman asked me, so beta, what do you want to do with your life, and i told her i want to make films and pretty much be doing what i am right now..she said, but if you get married, you don`t have to do that anymore and grinned at me woman to woman...i was so disgusted by her sugguesting that i didnt need a life after i married her prince charming that i told her marriage really didnt have a place in my life.
and just so that you know and not be sooo naive, when people want to meet you, it doesnt mater if you dont want to meet them...my parents have turned people away but they still find ways to come over and gawk and pester and ask stupid questions. they think that once we will see their chand ka tukra we will automatically fall on our knees, change our mind and get married.
on a final note, i have nothing against marriage..i mean to get married some day..just to someone i love. not too much to ask, is it?
:)
sadaf, that is sad that at 24 you are turning away from idealism. work on not doing so if it is bothering you :)
rizvi
#41 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on March 21, 2001 1:41:10 am
Welcome to CHOWK Raza!
I do want to remind you though that this is
CHOWK where a kiss on the cheek is possibly
cute but not much more.
The topic here is most interesting. Your
approach to it is refreshing but lacks
the ``Mirch Masala`` that is found in some of the
replies. I`m glad that at least Asim Hayat is
keeping - -.
Ras
#40 Posted by Syed Ahmed on March 20, 2001 8:26:58 pm
Re; Reply#31
Selecting a mate for marriage is a serious affair.
and it often involves lots of rejection and hurt feelings as well. It involves initial screeningss such as picture exchanges, background info etec etc, before a face-to face meetings are arranged...
Also poor sensibilities are a reflection of the family values, and reputations in general. People go through a lot of effort in a matchmaking process and sometimes there is considerable expense involved in gathering siblings or close family members, before such a meeting is arranged.
And its ofetn true, that ifthere is major infighting going in the family about marriage between the child and parents, particularly in coercive situations, that the children often
find it easier to say something inappropraite to the third party.
I think the person should have the courage to settle their internal differences and firmly
say NO to their own parents rather than wasting lots of peoples time and money - not to mention sensitivities.
Even if the the person in question is serious but does not like the prospective candidate, there are subtle ways of saying NO to other party via third parties....
Unfortunately the third party who is expecting to meet somebody nice and sensible and mature, is faced with a immature brat and callous sensibilities. Since maturity , behaviour and sensibility form a big portion of the the qualities that people look for in prospective spouses of their children, it often comes as a shock to the other party.
And the middle party often gets to hear ``kin batameez logon may.....`` etc etc ... And soon it hits the desi rumor circuit where it get exaggerated to hyperbolic propotions.....
And like they say in the professional world.... what goes around around... its true in
the desi matrimonial world as well....
So arrogant behaviours, callous attitudes,...and
`` I dont give a damn`` mindset - should be avoided, - This is just common sense....
Selecting a mate for marriage is a serious affair.
and it often involves lots of rejection and hurt feelings as well. It involves initial screeningss such as picture exchanges, background info etec etc, before a face-to face meetings are arranged...
Also poor sensibilities are a reflection of the family values, and reputations in general. People go through a lot of effort in a matchmaking process and sometimes there is considerable expense involved in gathering siblings or close family members, before such a meeting is arranged.
And its ofetn true, that ifthere is major infighting going in the family about marriage between the child and parents, particularly in coercive situations, that the children often
find it easier to say something inappropraite to the third party.
I think the person should have the courage to settle their internal differences and firmly
say NO to their own parents rather than wasting lots of peoples time and money - not to mention sensitivities.
Even if the the person in question is serious but does not like the prospective candidate, there are subtle ways of saying NO to other party via third parties....
Unfortunately the third party who is expecting to meet somebody nice and sensible and mature, is faced with a immature brat and callous sensibilities. Since maturity , behaviour and sensibility form a big portion of the the qualities that people look for in prospective spouses of their children, it often comes as a shock to the other party.
And the middle party often gets to hear ``kin batameez logon may.....`` etc etc ... And soon it hits the desi rumor circuit where it get exaggerated to hyperbolic propotions.....
And like they say in the professional world.... what goes around around... its true in
the desi matrimonial world as well....
So arrogant behaviours, callous attitudes,...and
`` I dont give a damn`` mindset - should be avoided, - This is just common sense....
#39 Posted by sadaf on March 20, 2001 7:35:17 pm
Zehra, Raza
No, I wasn`t saying that turning 24 is horrible, in fact, I am having one of my nicest birthdays today. I was saying that in this fast-paced world I sometimes find myself losing my idealism and optimism, and if I am doing that at only 24, then thats horrible.
I guess the point I was trying to make was that its not always easy to be idealistic. We have to make sure we keep things in perspective and not let the world get to us.
No, I wasn`t saying that turning 24 is horrible, in fact, I am having one of my nicest birthdays today. I was saying that in this fast-paced world I sometimes find myself losing my idealism and optimism, and if I am doing that at only 24, then thats horrible.
I guess the point I was trying to make was that its not always easy to be idealistic. We have to make sure we keep things in perspective and not let the world get to us.
#38 Posted by sadaf on March 20, 2001 7:35:17 pm
Zehra, Raza
No, I wasn`t saying that turning 24 is horrible, in fact, I am having one of my nicest birthdays today. I was saying that in this fast-paced world I sometimes find myself losing my idealism and optimism, and if I am doing that at only 24, then thats horrible.
I guess the point I was trying to make was that its not always easy to be idealistic. We have to make sure we keep things in perspective and not let the world get to us.
No, I wasn`t saying that turning 24 is horrible, in fact, I am having one of my nicest birthdays today. I was saying that in this fast-paced world I sometimes find myself losing my idealism and optimism, and if I am doing that at only 24, then thats horrible.
I guess the point I was trying to make was that its not always easy to be idealistic. We have to make sure we keep things in perspective and not let the world get to us.
#37 Posted by rsaxena on March 20, 2001 7:35:17 pm
What`s Chowk deteriorating to? There`s a bitchfight with Jay, Ali, and Sarwari on one board...there are a bunch of perverts talking about suhaag raats on this one. What next?
#36 Posted by rsaxena on March 20, 2001 7:35:17 pm
What`s Chowk deteriorating to? There`s a bitchfight with Jay, Ali, and Sarwari on one board...there are a bunch of perverts talking about suhaag raats on this one. What next?
#35 Posted by razalatif on March 20, 2001 7:35:17 pm
It is interesting to see, how a `Kiss on the Cheek` is being thought of as something sexual. The discussion at some points is nearly bordering on sexuality and its nuances in our society.
Now that we are getting technical, I would just like to point out that there was nothing sexual about the kiss. A kiss on the cheek is more of a gesture to acknowledge another person. The fact that it was on the cheek is important (it is also the title).
Therefore, the fact that nothing happened the night before does not bar the character from kissing his new wife on the cheek. The character did it as a public `stunt` to begin with and ended up where he ended up.
Thanks Aamir, for your comments. I guess your understanding of this predicament is more real than mine....:) But I still stand by my romantic `unreality`. Kar lay jo karna hey...:)
Raza
PS: Aamir is very good friend of mine and we have groped in realms of reality and dreams together for many a years now.
Now that we are getting technical, I would just like to point out that there was nothing sexual about the kiss. A kiss on the cheek is more of a gesture to acknowledge another person. The fact that it was on the cheek is important (it is also the title).
Therefore, the fact that nothing happened the night before does not bar the character from kissing his new wife on the cheek. The character did it as a public `stunt` to begin with and ended up where he ended up.
Thanks Aamir, for your comments. I guess your understanding of this predicament is more real than mine....:) But I still stand by my romantic `unreality`. Kar lay jo karna hey...:)
Raza
PS: Aamir is very good friend of mine and we have groped in realms of reality and dreams together for many a years now.
#34 Posted by razalatif on March 20, 2001 7:35:17 pm
It is interesting to see, how a `Kiss on the Cheek` is being thought of as something sexual. The discussion at some points is nearly bordering on sexuality and its nuances in our society.
Now that we are getting technical, I would just like to point out that there was nothing sexual about the kiss. A kiss on the cheek is more of a gesture to acknowledge another person. The fact that it was on the cheek is important (it is also the title).
Therefore, the fact that nothing happened the night before does not bar the character from kissing his new wife on the cheek. The character did it as a public `stunt` to begin with and ended up where he ended up.
Thanks Aamir, for your comments. I guess your understanding of this predicament is more real than mine....:) But I still stand by my romantic `unreality`. Kar lay jo karna hey...:)
Raza
PS: Aamir is very good friend of mine and we have groped in realms of reality and dreams together for many a years now.
Now that we are getting technical, I would just like to point out that there was nothing sexual about the kiss. A kiss on the cheek is more of a gesture to acknowledge another person. The fact that it was on the cheek is important (it is also the title).
Therefore, the fact that nothing happened the night before does not bar the character from kissing his new wife on the cheek. The character did it as a public `stunt` to begin with and ended up where he ended up.
Thanks Aamir, for your comments. I guess your understanding of this predicament is more real than mine....:) But I still stand by my romantic `unreality`. Kar lay jo karna hey...:)
Raza
PS: Aamir is very good friend of mine and we have groped in realms of reality and dreams together for many a years now.
#33 Posted by Asim on March 20, 2001 7:35:17 pm
Re: amir`s adsvice to Raza
``keep it up``
I have always wondered why the devil this dubious expression holds so much cliche value for us desis. These days, almost every other interact on Chowk specially, ends with ``keep it up``, or something to that effect. Sexual connotations apart, it has little in terms of encourgaemnet, not that anybody(read as the male variety), needs to know the pro`s in keeping it up. You are preaching to the converted, as someone said to Bina Shah on another board.
If you dont see the rhyme or reason behind the above diatribe, not to worry, i dont either. Perhaps it had something to do with having seen Deepa Mehta`s excellent movie ``Fire``, finally. The husbands coerced the two wives into seeking refuge and comfort in each others bosoms and boies. So tragic and yet so fascinating. Hinduism with its myriads of gods and goddesses and makebelief stories, can render common people so confused, almost as confused as the fatwahs from Islamic clergy. It really is tragic.
Asim
``keep it up``
I have always wondered why the devil this dubious expression holds so much cliche value for us desis. These days, almost every other interact on Chowk specially, ends with ``keep it up``, or something to that effect. Sexual connotations apart, it has little in terms of encourgaemnet, not that anybody(read as the male variety), needs to know the pro`s in keeping it up. You are preaching to the converted, as someone said to Bina Shah on another board.
If you dont see the rhyme or reason behind the above diatribe, not to worry, i dont either. Perhaps it had something to do with having seen Deepa Mehta`s excellent movie ``Fire``, finally. The husbands coerced the two wives into seeking refuge and comfort in each others bosoms and boies. So tragic and yet so fascinating. Hinduism with its myriads of gods and goddesses and makebelief stories, can render common people so confused, almost as confused as the fatwahs from Islamic clergy. It really is tragic.
Asim
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