Is IT the Panacea?

Friends:

Zahra 31 has extended very well the ideas I highlight in my article. Thanks. With 70-80 % of our population still in our villages it is paramount that most development activity be geared to benefit this large group. IT in agriculture is a very fruitful area & I have read of some success stories from India about this. It would be great to encourage such activity in Pakistan.

I am not against e-commerce nor am I unaware of its potential advantages. Our priorities need to elsewhere -- making money will come out of realising those goals, and not the other way around. We need practical education that attends to the real needs and creates productive jobs in our country and by implication in South Asia.

On a slightly different note, I am puzzled by the total lack of focus of some `discussants`. Could a separate area be created on CHOWK to cater for their special needs.

Isa Daudpota

Friends:

Zahra 31 has extended very well the ideas I highlight in my article. Thanks. With 70-80 % of our population still in our villages it is paramount that most development activity be geared to benefit this large group. IT in agriculture is a very fruitful area & I have read of some success stories from India about this. It would be great to encourage such activity in Pakistan.

I am not against e-commerce nor am I unaware of its potential advantages. Our priorities need to elsewhere -- making money will come out of realising those goals, and not the other way around. We need practical education that attends to the real needs and creates productive jobs in our country and by implication in South Asia.

On a slightly different note, I am puzzled by the total lack of focus of some `discussants`. Could a separate area be created on CHOWK to cater for their special needs.

Isa Daudpota

demystifying the - ``why are there more Indians than Pakistanis in IT related fields???``

less beef and more bhaajjii on the brain : )

aicha

Romair:

Each human being has their own course of action for their life. Some live day by day, whereas some plan ahead. Some are short term planners, whereas others are long term planners. It`s an individual`s perception. Even in one house, all siblings do not think the same way; expecting all men and women to be motivated by the same idea has pretty slim chances in that regard.

Both of us generally agree on certain points. But I read something again and again in your posts. Well-off/Rich/Affluent. These words are sounding pretty shallow after your first post. I think it is the caliber of a person that makes them choose a route and make their mark than their worldly assets. Yes, the worldly assets may assist in a way, but it`s the ``inside`` that has to have the sense of motivation and not the material things. I can see why you used the words again and again -to illustrate your point on financial independence and the privileged class. The interesting thing about this country is that in order to be somewhere you have to work hard on your own and you have to put your best foot forward. Kind of always on high-alert! Sometimes this rut can get on one`s nerves, but other times it may serve as one of the goals of one`s life.

I wanted to conclude this informative discussion with some ending thought; but I guess I got carried away.

On an ending note, I took away some good points from this discussion and will suggest a few thought. Now read them as they appear on the screen and discard them if they are not appealing. Do not come back and start ripping them apart, please! You have the Aquarian`s tendencies! I may or may not be right. Whatever! Coming to the burning point:

- Human beings evolve with time and they should. The evolution is indicative of +ive growth pattern. It`s like checking out CISCO`s Stock Performance. When CICSO`s curve rises and the stock-splits, there is :-)))) and when it comes down, there is a :-(((( !

But what may be evolution to me and you, may not hold a penny`s worth for a third person. Whereas what may be important to them, may mean nothing to us.

In short, one can influence people; but one cannot change the outlook of anyone. Be it a wife, a husband, a teen-ager, a sibling, a parent...an ulloo, a gadha whatever!

I was just setting the stage for my forth-coming suggestion :-)

- I think all these enlightened and affluent men in your vicinity should be persuaded to spend the money that they wished to spend on their wives` education on someone else`s education back home, who may do something with that knowledge and awareness - for whom it may be a roadmap to Eldorado. Otherwise, it will be a waste. And you do not have to be a millionaire or a billionaire or a zillionaire to achieve such goals, you should have the flame inside. And just do the ``prathana`` for that flame, to keep burning forever!

Glad to exchange some thoughts with you on this board.

Take Care!

Romair,

Your observations re Pakistani women in the US are interesting. In my personal experience (in the medical field) I`ve come across very few Pakistani female doctors.

In medical college, about 40% of my class comprised of women. To tell you the truth they were much better students than the men. I found them much more studious & concientious than men. There were quite a few muslim women in my class too.

Perhaps this may sound sexist, but I feel women make much better doctors than men. They are more nurturing & empathetic. Unfortunately, patients (including women) seem to have more confidence in male doctors--even in a ``liberated`` society like the US.

When I had gone back to India about 5 yrs ago, I met a lot of my classmates during a reunion. I was quite dissapointed that most of the women who graduated with me were either practising part time or had taken academic positions as lecturers & professors.

I cant blame them. I think Indian society insists that they become homemakers first & their careers come secondary to their husbands`. Its a shame because most of these women have in laws & servants who can relieve them of the duties of a homemaker. Personally, its a waste of their talent.

This fact hit home too. My younger brother is a family practitioner in Bombay & is married to one of his classmates in medical school. My SIL has outperformed him in every exam in medical school. She has better people skills & in essense I would rather be her patient than my brother`s. Obviously, I didnt mention this blatant fact to him:)

He has taken over my father`s practice & she works parttime in a municipal free medical clinic. I asked him why he doesnt expand his practice & take her on as a full time partner? It seemed like a very innocent & logical question. I was taken aback when he shot back curtly ``she doesnt have time!`` BULL!! Both my parents are at home & we have servants. They only have one kid. What the heck role does she have as a homemaker? Oh well, I didnt want to start a fight by playing shrink & commenting about his insecurity & inferiority complex:)

I guess I dont have the right to stand in judgement. My wife is my office manager. All I have to concentrate on is the clinical aspect of my practice. She handles all the administrative & business aspects. Let me tell you, running a practice is no different than running a small business. Nobody teaches doctors how to run a private practice in medical school or residency. We go into practice very naievely & then realise its better to have a good office manager than a partner from Harvard medical school to be financially successful.

My dear wife, out of sheer necessity, had to teach herself medical billing, policy & procedures of insurance companies etc etc & now runs my practice like a well oiled machine. My collegues are not envious of my clinical skills; but they are very envious that my wife is the secret of my success. Without her, I`m a fish out of water.

Now, if my wife (who is obviously smarter than me) was a doctor & she was a fellow partner--how would I feel? Would I feel insecure? Would it adversely effect my ego? To tell you the truth, I dont have the guts to analyse myself because I`m too afraid of my conclusions:))

Zahra #124: ``Somehow, I have some doubts. If they were that enlightened, you won`t be complaining about their wives here``

Since you do not know the people I am talking about, you have two choices: you can take my word for it. Or you can disregard my word, in which case, you should also disregard everything else I have written.

There are actually quite a few Pakistanis guys who are more than willing to support the wives in their education and careers. I would say amongst the professional Pakistanis I have come across ( not only amongst my close friends) in the US, this group is in the majority. However, their wives have to take some initiative on their own first, before they ask for support from their husbands.

``Personally, I do not care what these wives do. Excuse my indifference. I am far more interested in the well-being of women back home.``

The only way, ``women back home`` will have the chance to progress is if well-off women here and in Pakistan take some initiative and end up as role models in influential positions. Until that happens, apart from the lives of the one odd women back home who gets a scholarship, nothing major is going to change.

``Majority of women, who come to the US after their medicine or engineering, will pursue their careers unless they are married to Pagal Ulloos[Mad Owls]!``

This is true. But how many Pakistani women in the USA have degrees in medicine and engineering. An overwhelming majority seems to come here after completing their B.A., etc. Until this overwhelming majority decides to join the mainstream, the doctors and engineers will not be able to do too much on their own. There just aren`t enough of them.

And an owl is generally regarded as oneof the most intelligent birds in America. It is only in Pakistan, that the owl is considered stupid.

``If your comment was a criticism towards the guest speakers who were invited, I am sorry I was not in the loop at all. And I think you should not hammer on that any more.``

Actually, my comment was not a criticism regarding the speakers. The speakers did a pretty good job. My comment was a criticism of the Pakistani women who did not show up to the function. And the fact that their aren`t any qualified Pakistani women available to speak. If I, a non-woman, could pay the money and take the time to show up for this function, then don`t you think many of the thousands of Pakistani well-off women in Silicon Valley could have shown up for this function. Who stopped them from showing up? Did their husbands tie them up or lock them in the bathroom? I have seen way too many of them line up, along with myself, to buy tickets to Junoon and Daler Mehndi concerts, when these singers visit Silicon Valley. Nothing wrong with that, but why don`t they show an equal interest on this side, as well.

They simple reason is that very few of them, despite having all the opportunity in the world, really care about technology, furthuring their abilities, getting into positions where they can help women in Pakistan, etc. The only ones who were present in the function were the ones from iopwe. However, to the best of my knowledge, this function was open to all men and women.

If out of the thousands of Pakistanis girls and women in Silicon Valley, all of whom are very well-off with well educated husbands, only ten (and seven out of these ten were themselves members of the organization that organized the function) bothered to attend this function, then don`t you think it is a pretty good indication that these women do not take interest. And until these well-off Pakistani women start taking interest as a huge group, I don`t think too much can be done for the not so well off Pakistani women. This, of course, does not mean that the few women who are making efforts should not be encouraged.

``I am no one to go and tell them what to do and how to do; I cannot impose my vision on someone and ask them to adopt that as theirs!``

I am not quite sure where you got the idea that I was requesting you to personally target these women. I was just pointing out the problem. Since you do represent an organization that is trying to solve these problems, and you had yourself requested my opinion (I did not volunteer it), hence I gave it to you, and pointed out an area which I felt needed to be highlighted.

Romair:

[I have found almost all of them to be very enlightened. If they were any more enlightened they would turn into light bulbs.]

- Interesting! I hope our interpretation of the word ``enlightened`` is along the same lines. Somehow, I have some doubts. If they were that enlightened, you won`t be complaining about their wives here :-)!

[They are far better husbands than their American colleagues. ]

- Over Sensitive and Defensive! Aren`t we? :-)


[Nearly every single one of the ones I know personally would be more than happy if his wife were to study furthur and pursue careers (provided it didn`t effect the upbringing of the kids). Many have actually encouraged their wives along these lines, if for no other reason, then because the guys wanted to pursue IT entrepreneurship, and needed someone to support the family for a year or so.]

- What happened to the power of persuasion? the enlightenment factor? the turram-khans? On a serious note, I think that is between these guys and their wives. No one can come and tell them what to do with their lives. Having a cousin in your area, who has gone through the same path; I know very well what you are talking about. He also went into entrepreneurship and his wife, an IT Consultant, opted to stay home for sometime as the kids were too young. Personal Decisions!

[It is the wives of these guys that I was refering to. Not women in Pakistan in general. I do not have much info on women in Pakistan, in general.]

- Personally, I do not care what these wives do. Excuse my indifference. I am far more interested in the well-being of women back home. That`s far more important to me than these women who are not working for some personal family reasons or lack of ambition or whatever. That`s one area that you`ve emphasized. And I am open to hearing your perspective. Majority of women, who come to the US after their medicine or engineering, will pursue their careers unless they are married to Pagal Ulloos[Mad Owls]! Trust me, there are certain cases like that as well :-)


[It is basically tough to pursue an education and a career. That is why only determined people can do it, even though many others get the opportunity. I cannot think of any advantage your fellow members in iopwe had over these girls (who constitute the majority of the Pakistani female population in the US). However, why did the members of iopwe pursue careers, but these girls didn`t?]

- The focus of our discussion is very different! Although your suggestion is reasonable, but it is geared towards the Pakistani Community in your vicinity. The current team is already in the process of including more women from the area in the network. You should realize that it is an international network. The members who are in Cali. represent a very little % of the overall membership.

[A majority of Pakistani girls, in Pakistan, do fall into the category you have mentioned, i.e lack of opportunity, lack of role models (very important), lack of encouragement, lack of support, etc. However, the ones who have made it to the USA, and have all the opportunities of the world at their feet, and still do not attempt to become role models, then they have no right to complain about the condition of women in Pakistan.]


- I agree as well as disagree. I have come across many newly married young women who despite having the urge to go for higher studies cannot pursue that. Their husbands are the traditional ones, who don`t believe in assisting the wives at home, and as a result the whole burden lies on the women. The woman, being a wise one, does not want to kill herself - working at home[like a maid] and rushing outside as well. So she chooses her comfort and mental stability over her ambitions(if any).


[If I want to uplift the standard of living of the average Pakistani, should I attempt to put myself in the position where I can do something about it, or should I enjoy myself, and hope someone from Iran or India is going to do it?]

- Thanks for humming the same tune!

If your comment was a criticism towards the guest speakers who were invited, I am sorry I was not in the loop at all. And I think you should not hammer on that any more. The intent was to discuss different career options in that forum and that was accomplished. Also, as many members live all over the world, it`s really hard to fly them for a one day event. That takes us back to my point - send me the list of the people who should be invited and I will forward it.

- Personally[that`s my personal opinion only] I simply do not care about those who are settled here and are lacking in ambition and drive. It`s the problem of these women and the men who got married to them or vice versa. These men better inculcate the sense among their wives, if they have any power of persuasion[if and only if]. I`d rather do something for women back home. It would be far more important to me to support a young woman who wants to pursue higher studies and cannot do so due to financial reasons in Patoki or District Gujrat or some little qasba than to motivate someone sitting in California waiting for an angel to land in her window and give her a sermon. Personally, that`s not my area of interest! Again, that`s my own way of channelizing my energies in the direction I want to. Personal Preference!

``The Pakistani men certainly aren`t going to do it. ``

- I completely agree. They are only out there to show their phoon phaan. If they were any Laiq then the country would have been in a better state!


[So while these 5% of the women may not be the cause of the problems for the women in Pakistan, very few of them, despite having the opportunity, have attempted to become the solution. In fact, the hardest working women in Pakistan are the poor women who work in the fields and as servants. Who gave them the ambition or the confidence, or self-worth? Necessity demanded it and they took on the challenge.]

- Now this is an ideal case of switching back and forth. This was exactly, where, I lost my cool composure earlier under another article. This switching back and forth to substantiate your response to one and only one argument is very annoying and irritating! You started with one case and issue and now have jumped to another that you claimed to have no clue about. If I were you, I will stick with that claim.

[Nearly every single one of my Pakistani colleagues here in the US would be more than happy if his wife furthured her education. Many of them would jump for joy. Many have tried to encourage their wives. Yet very few, probably less than 10%, of their wives attempt to pursue anything. The common factor amongst the ones who do pursue something is ambition and the will to do hard work, not anything else; not even their living standard in Pakistan.]

- Well, that`s a fair reason. I have met quite a few Pakistani guys who do not want to do well in life and are comfortable with where they are. Their spouses have no problem with that either. I am no one to go and tell them what to do and how to do; I cannot impose my vision on someone and ask them to adopt that as theirs! Can you? In fact, should you ? Don`t give me the ``role-model`` argument. That`s not applicable here. The kind of flow you have, you are prone to do that. Also, the Pakistanis in California are not the representative of Pakistani Community in the US. Yes, they are rep. of Pakistanis in their area only!


Take Care.

Rshridhar,

{{Is this fictitious Dr Shah a cardiologist practising in Florida? If he is, I think i know him}}

I live in a small town in Michigan. The story is true, the name Dr Shah is fictitious.

Rgds

romair,

quite an expected reply from you. the man of details and references and proofs suddenly expects to be taken at face value. let me just say that an honest man has nothing to hide.
i can find more holes in your clarification as well. a classic case of inventing more to cover up one. but i won`t.

[...you can remember what I said in earlier ones, while I cannot remember anything you stated in your previous posts...]
i attribute that to your superior interpersonal skills.

[...you could have concentrated on either of these three, yet you have chosen to narrow in on the one...]
and pray, what would be the point of concentrating on points on which we might be in agreeement? besides, on earlier occasions you have argued that indians are no better than the pakistanis or the chinese or the russians as far as technical abilities in IT go and that indians are just more in numbers and hence have all the visibility. you simply change your position to suit a particular post at a particular time.

i think a lot of pakistanis here would have been greatly relieved if you actually were a 12 year old islamabadi!

Romair:

For the time being, please stick to the pertinent points! Rest assured, I won`t let the ``controversial points`` escape that easily.

later,

It is unfortunate that this thread is not on the main board any longer, since this is developing into an interesting discussion. Maybe we should attempt to hijack one of the poetry threads on the main board, with IT related topics:-)

Zahra #115: ``You`ve hit on many issues and some of them are contradictory to your initial stance.``

Could you let me know the contradictions.

Shankar #116: ``Please dont misunderstand me (maybe I should have been been clearer).``

Don`t worry about misunderstandings. I did not think that you had refered to me in any kind of a derogatory manner. I was just attempting to answer your questions, and figure out why you felt that many Pakistanis consider Indians to be village-based. Also, I was attempting to clarify that my comparisons were between Indians and Pakistanis from comparable backgrounds.

``A few Pakistani bigots started putting down Indian Americans. Essentially they slammed Indians who come to America as low class, dirty, ugly, heeng smelling chuts.``

It has been my experience that when a replier (Pakistani or Indian) resorts to personal attacks towards an individual, it is a good indication that the replier has run out of information, but is unwilling to admit it. The replier has no leg to stand on, and is, at that point, resorting to his/her last line of defense, i.e. personal attacks. That is a good time to realize that such a person has nothing more to offer, and one should just ignore his/her comments. I get personally attacked by a lot of Indians, and quite a few Pakistanis as well. I generally ignore them, because, to me, its just a sign that these guys have basically lost the argument, but have too big of an ego to admit it.

So I would suggest you ignore the Pakistanis who make derogatory personal comments about Indians, also. Otherwise, you will either end up abandoning Chowk, or you will get so worked up that you will end up on your own psychiatrist`s chair :-) No website or interaction is important enough to even microscopically alter one`s emotional state. And do not worry about offending me. I am not easily offended, both intentionally or unintentionally. The fact that you and I are interacting should be enough of an indication that we have so far not offended each other.

dost-mittar #117: ``Could it be that we have here a case of what they call `pseudo correlation` in statistics, that is to say, you are confusing regional with national traits?``

This is probably quite accurate. I think the answer is something along these lines.

Most of the Pakistanis in the US IT industry actually tend to be from Karachi and not Punjab. I would guess there are more Pakistanis in Silicon Valley from Karachi, then from the rest of Pakistan combined (just an educated guess). I think 80% or so of the Pakistani IT companies are in Karachi. The culture of all of Pakistan is however greatly influenced by Punjab, due to its large population. So perhaps Pakistanis tend to socially slide towards a Punjab-centric society. While maybe Indians, as a whole, at least in IT, tend to slide towards a South-Indian centric society. I don`t know. Just a guess.

concerned #114: ``yaar, you really crack me up!

so what you are saying is that in your college, (which though not ivy league but has standards higher than those in your specialty, as you informed us a while back), companies rejected academically more capable indian guys who finished couple of semesters before you did (6-8 months before) and waited for smarter guys like you and other pakistanis to finish their courses!``

First of all, I find it interesting, perhaps an honor, that you follow my posts so closely. You can remember what I said in earlier ones, while I cannot remember anything you stated in your previous posts.

Just to clarify your minsunderstandings: Employers did not reject the Indians, nor the Pakistanis. Since we were graduate students, all of us were interviewing for jobs while we were studying. It is a always a good idea to do so, since the potential employers can then pay for the remaining tuition. So while we were students, I got hired before the Indian students, even though I was a semester or so behind them in academic work. All of them (apart from one or two who also were hired as students), got hired immediately after graduation, or within a few months after graduation.

I never stated that I was, ``smarter`` than any of the Indians. In fact, I attempted to indicate exactly the opposite.

``and these indian guys, nerds as they were, went begging for jobs while the pakistanis graduated.``

Is there any particular reason, why are you refering to Indians as nerds? In my replies, I never used this term.

Very very few IT graduates in the US go begging for jobs. Almost all of the ones with me in college were hired immediately after graduation. However, only a few of them were hired in full-time positions before graduation. Most were hired as part-time interns, before graduation.

``can you give us some details? for starters, which college did you attend? when did you graduate and what was your major? which company did you join right after college?``

No I cannot. Because it is none of your business. For all you, know I could be a twelve year old kid sitting in Islamabad who has fabricated all this information. And I am not going to spend the time in clarifying this, nor give you the right to doubt my integrity. Either believe what I am saying about myself at face value, or do not believe it. That is up to you. It doesn`t make any difference to me.

I hope the above answers your questions. I mentioned two areas in which I felt Indians excelled (programming and entrepreneurship) in comparsion to Pakistanis, and one area (people-related areas) in which I felt Pakistanis excelled in comparison to Indians. You could have concentrated on either of these three years, yet you have chosen to narrow in on the one in which I showed Pakistanis is favorable light. If it makes you feel any better you can completely ignore what I stated in my previous replies, and consider Indians to be superior, in every area, to Pakistanis and to the rest of the world. I will not lose any sleep over it.

Re: Reply #: 112

shankar Sir,

Is this fictitious Dr Shah a cardiologist practising in Florida? If he is, I think i know him.

sridhar

Umairr,

Please dont misunderstand me (maybe I should have been been clearer). I DONT think YOU are an arrogant snob. In fact, I`m impressed that you would interview & hire many Indians & you are willing to put aside any personal political/humanitarian bais as you do so. Its especially remarkable, since you are a half Kashmiri & have a personal & genuine complaint about what is happening in your native land.

Sometime ago, (I think it was sac) who published an article in Chowk about India`s IT industry. A few Pakistani bigots started putting down Indian Americans. Essentially they slammed Indians who come to America as low class, dirty, ugly, heeng smelling chuts. If I`m not mistaken, thats where the ``heeng smelling`` cliche started.

I realise there are bigots in every country. The vast majority of Pakistani posters on Chowk are decent, moderate & fair. I made a special reference to ``THOSE`` Pakistanis who feel...

Eventhough I`m a shrink, I`m just as neurotic as any of you.. While I laugh at those who insult me personally, it hurts when my countrymen/women are collectively insulted by prejudiced Pakistanis. There are very few things that we Indians are genuinely proud of; IT is one of them. Heck, our prowess may not be as great as the American IT industry. However, thats one of the few things other Asian countries admire about us; including Pakistanis (grudgingly, perhaps).

Romair:

I will get back to your questions as well as interesting observations later on. You`ve hit on many issues and some of them are contradictory to your initial stance. I understand that they were written in good faith and I want to read them in the same stride. It`s just that I want to be very careful in scrutanizing them, therefore I will address them later!

In the meantime, if you have any suggestions or a list of women in your area:

- who were not at IOPWE`s event and should have been there

or

- who are active in the community and were not aware of the gathering

or

- who can add a lot due to their experience and it would be great to have them on board

or

- you have friends whose wives are more involved in hulla-gulla than substantive objectives in life and you would like them to be at this event

or
.......
.......
.......


Please share that information with me on Zahra_Jamshed@msn.com

There will be an open house in the near future[I guess this month]. I think it will be great if you can provide the requested information. I will make sure that an invite is sent to them and we can tap into those indivs/resources.

PS: If you`d like to be at the gathering yourself, please send thy email address as well.

PS1: Thanks in advance for your sincere efforts, constructive criticism and thoughtful suggestions.

later,

romair,

[...All the Indians finished their academic program, with equal or higher grades than me, a couple of semesters before I did. However, I got a job before any of them did. In fact their was another Pakistani with me, and he got a job quite quickly also. Probably because both of us did quite a bit better than the Indian graduates in interviews...]

yaar, you really crack me up!
so what you are saying is that in your college, (which though not ivy league but has standards higher than those in your specialty, as you informed us a while back), companies rejected academically more capable indian guys who finished couple of semesters before you did (6-8 months before) and waited for smarter guys like you and other pakistanis to finish their courses!

and these indian guys, nerds as they were, went begging for jobs while the pakistanis graduated. eventually, the nerds also got jobs but only after smarter pakistanis had been hired. and then the nerds struggled in the management queue while you climbed the ladder with remarkable ease!

can you give us some details? for starters, which college did you attend? when did you graduate and what was your major? which company did you join right after college? which company did the indian guys work for?

looking forward to the info.

shankar #112: It is quite obvious that one cannot compare a person who has made it to the USA from a village in Pakistan to someone who has made it to the USA from Bombay or Banglore. And vice-versa. When I made a comparison between the areas in which Indians and Pakistanis and Americans were successful in the USA in IT, I was attempting to do so amongst people from equal backgrounds, i.e. comparing a Pakistani guy from Lahore with an Indian guy from Bombay, and an Indian guy from a village with a Pakistani guy from a village.

If we assume that Pakistanis and Indians enjoy an equal standard of living in Pakistan and India respectively, then one would have to assume that there are quite a few Pakistani success stories in the US (perhaps proportionately equal) which fall into the category of, ``low class, unsophisticated, heeng smelling chuts,`` as well. And a proportionately equal no. of Indians who come from big urban centers. So I am basing my comparisons on people who had comparative backgrounds in India and Pakisan, i.e. village educated Indians with village educated Pakistanis with village educated Americans. And the same for urban educated Pakistanis, Indians, and Americans.

And based on my experience of hiring and interviewing many candidates for start-up software companies, as well as my work experience, though not based on any scientific study, I have reached the following order of merit:

Software Programming: 1) Indians 2) Pakistanis 3) Americans

Entreprenuership: 1) Indians 2) Americans/Pakistanis (tied)

Management/People related jobs 1) Americans 2) Pakistanis 3) Indians

I don`t know how scientifically accurate this maybe, however I have read similar articles in magazines like Fortune. And I have experienced it too often personally to not be convinced of it. I don`t know the reasons behind this. Maybe the average Pakistani IT graduate does not like programming (I know Americans don`t). Maybe the average Indian graduate thinks moving up the management ranks is a waste of time, and immediately jumps to entrepreneurship. Or maybe there are certain factors in their respective societies and educational systems (Indian, Pakistani, American) that strengthen one aspect of their personalities an weaken other aspects. Or maybe my analysis is completely off the mark. Again I am comparing the villagers to the villagers and the urbanites with the urbanites.

Amongst my graduating class, most of the Indians were from major urban cities (you seemed to have assumed, for some reason, that they were from villages). Considering the fact that at the time of my graduation, IT had not even touched Pakistan, and was already well into India, in terms of IT urbanness, us Pakistani students were villagers in comparison to the Indians. I don`t think any of the Indians were any more intelligent than I. Yet all of them finished their degrees exactly on schedule, while most of us Pakistanis were a couple of semesters late. Almost all the Indians received equal or higher grades than I did. One could say they were technically more sound than I, and will probably write more papers and books than me. Yet I got a job before they did. And I have moved up management ranks faster than them. Yet, they probably will, if they already haven`t, start IT companies well before me. The American students in our group will probably avoid the engineering dept of companies, all together. They will start companies slower than Indians, but will move up the management ranks faster than Indians or Pakistanis. I don`t know why, but I have noticed this trend way too often.

On a side psycho-analytical note: When I mentioned that Pakistanis tended to be more confident in social dealings than Indians, you automatically assumed two things:

1) ``Pakistanis self confidently & arrogantly dissmissing Indians as low class, unsophisticated, heeng smelling chuts.`` I didn`t mention this anywhere. I just stated that Pakistanis could be self-confident to the point of being arrogant (with no reference to Indians). 2) Pakistanis in the US tend to be urbanites, while Indians tend to be villagers. Although, I never stated that either.

Is this an individual view, or is this view consciously or sub-consciously held by Indians regarding how Pakistanis view them? Or am I misreading your comments. Looking forward to your expert opinion.