Omar Mirza April 1, 2001
#82 Posted by ferozk on April 5, 2001 2:12:57 am
Re: arjun_m # 73
Just a point of clarification.
My reference to Bush`s revised cold war policies was meant in the sense that it seeks confrontation instead of consensus in forging international policies.
United States does not have to support Pakistan like it did during the cold war, because India has more strategic importance for it than Pakistan - in terms of trade.
I am against United States` support of Pakistan, because Pakistanis will blindly implement Washington`s bidding and when United States` interests change, Pakistanis will complain of being ignored by the United States. United States` alliance is the worst thing, which can happen to Pakistan and in my opinion, Pakistan will be far less worse off it tries to exist without United States` patronage.
An alliance with the United States is rational decision if that decision is taken within a realistic assesment of the prevailing geo-political situation. Pakistan has a very childish concept of foreign policy. It believes in giving absolute loyality and it accepts absolute loyality in return and that is a very flawed premise upon, which to decide foreign policy.
Therein lies the rub. Pakistan needs to come up with a rational foreign policy based on pragmatic realizations of its security considerations and not on emotionalism.
Pakistan is a very emotional nation prone knee jerk acts of myopia cursed with a unwillingness to admit to its past mistakes.
Hence, Pakistan continues to make make wrong decisions, because it never learns from its mistakes and simply compounds the problem endlessly.
Ciao!
Just a point of clarification.
My reference to Bush`s revised cold war policies was meant in the sense that it seeks confrontation instead of consensus in forging international policies.
United States does not have to support Pakistan like it did during the cold war, because India has more strategic importance for it than Pakistan - in terms of trade.
I am against United States` support of Pakistan, because Pakistanis will blindly implement Washington`s bidding and when United States` interests change, Pakistanis will complain of being ignored by the United States. United States` alliance is the worst thing, which can happen to Pakistan and in my opinion, Pakistan will be far less worse off it tries to exist without United States` patronage.
An alliance with the United States is rational decision if that decision is taken within a realistic assesment of the prevailing geo-political situation. Pakistan has a very childish concept of foreign policy. It believes in giving absolute loyality and it accepts absolute loyality in return and that is a very flawed premise upon, which to decide foreign policy.
Therein lies the rub. Pakistan needs to come up with a rational foreign policy based on pragmatic realizations of its security considerations and not on emotionalism.
Pakistan is a very emotional nation prone knee jerk acts of myopia cursed with a unwillingness to admit to its past mistakes.
Hence, Pakistan continues to make make wrong decisions, because it never learns from its mistakes and simply compounds the problem endlessly.
Ciao!
#81 Posted by harimau on April 4, 2001 11:41:57 pm
Ref binifer #: 78
[``The Kashmiris constitute less than 1% of India`s population and will be squelched like cockroaches.``
Are you for real?]
Yes, sweetheart, I am for real. I post in plain English home truths that Pakistanis, fervent believers in Islam, their fellow-travellers and hand-wringing Hindu apologists don`t like to hear.
[``May the flies of a thousand camels reside in your armpits``]
Would those flies have to be of Arab or Chinese origin or would sand flies of the Thar desert be acceptable to true-blue Pakistanis?
[``The Kashmiris constitute less than 1% of India`s population and will be squelched like cockroaches.``
Are you for real?]
Yes, sweetheart, I am for real. I post in plain English home truths that Pakistanis, fervent believers in Islam, their fellow-travellers and hand-wringing Hindu apologists don`t like to hear.
[``May the flies of a thousand camels reside in your armpits``]
Would those flies have to be of Arab or Chinese origin or would sand flies of the Thar desert be acceptable to true-blue Pakistanis?
#79 Posted by Pankaj on April 4, 2001 9:45:47 pm
Ferozk#69
``India will have to do a clever diplomatic balancing act and given the ``wild card`` of Pakistan, India cannot afford to let Pakistan emerge as a Chinese protége in a regional sense. Iran is tilting towards Russia (in defense related matters and in gaining nuclear technology from Russia) and if India is not careful, it will be identified as a nation ``running with the foxes while hunting with the hounds``.
``
Actually the situation is extremely complicated from Indian point of view. India does not want to go in the bad books of Russia as it is its main supplier of defence equipments. At the same time India, at this juncture can not afford to rile up Chinese. If Russia and China team up together to prevent US from making inroads into Asia, India would be in an unenviable situation. Given its economic and geopolitical interests, it would be inviting a big trouble if it antagonises Russia-China combine. China can cause India a lot of harm if they apply themselves to it, and in absence of Russia to fall back on in Asia, it would be a disaster inspite of American support. So India should keep itself away from this power game and at least not become a stooge of USA. India should strive to maximise her economic interests and lay low till it becomes an economic power to match Chinese(ie double its GDP from $480bn to a trillion(Chinese) ). But it requires some ingenuity to prosper without siding any party overtly. The useless rhetoric of non alignment will not work. India has everything to loose and little to gain in the kind of situation you hypothesize.
``India will have to do a clever diplomatic balancing act and given the ``wild card`` of Pakistan, India cannot afford to let Pakistan emerge as a Chinese protége in a regional sense. Iran is tilting towards Russia (in defense related matters and in gaining nuclear technology from Russia) and if India is not careful, it will be identified as a nation ``running with the foxes while hunting with the hounds``.
``
Actually the situation is extremely complicated from Indian point of view. India does not want to go in the bad books of Russia as it is its main supplier of defence equipments. At the same time India, at this juncture can not afford to rile up Chinese. If Russia and China team up together to prevent US from making inroads into Asia, India would be in an unenviable situation. Given its economic and geopolitical interests, it would be inviting a big trouble if it antagonises Russia-China combine. China can cause India a lot of harm if they apply themselves to it, and in absence of Russia to fall back on in Asia, it would be a disaster inspite of American support. So India should keep itself away from this power game and at least not become a stooge of USA. India should strive to maximise her economic interests and lay low till it becomes an economic power to match Chinese(ie double its GDP from $480bn to a trillion(Chinese) ). But it requires some ingenuity to prosper without siding any party overtly. The useless rhetoric of non alignment will not work. India has everything to loose and little to gain in the kind of situation you hypothesize.
#78 Posted by Binifer on April 4, 2001 9:45:47 pm
Harimau # 70
``The Kashmiris constitute less than 1% of India`s population and will be squelched like cockroaches.``
Are you for real?
``May the flies of a thousand camels reside in your armpits``
C. Klinger
``The Kashmiris constitute less than 1% of India`s population and will be squelched like cockroaches.``
Are you for real?
``May the flies of a thousand camels reside in your armpits``
C. Klinger
#77 Posted by ba_kait on April 4, 2001 5:56:49 pm
Dost-mittar #55 and Neptune #65
[I also discovered that Dhaka is named after a Hindu goddess, Dhakeshwri, to which an ancient temple is dedicated in Dhaka. But what I found even more interesting was that none of my muslim friends in Dhaka (of which I made many during my stay) knew about this origin of their city`s name.]
Well, no. It is actually the other way round. The name Dhakeshwari (literally - goddess of Dhaka) is derived from Dhaka
The name Dhaka is apprently derived from ``Dhaak`` trees which may have been in abundance at that time. There are many such names around:
eg.
Plassy: Palash
Champaran:Champa Aranya or Forest of Champa trees
Bakait
[I also discovered that Dhaka is named after a Hindu goddess, Dhakeshwri, to which an ancient temple is dedicated in Dhaka. But what I found even more interesting was that none of my muslim friends in Dhaka (of which I made many during my stay) knew about this origin of their city`s name.]
Well, no. It is actually the other way round. The name Dhakeshwari (literally - goddess of Dhaka) is derived from Dhaka
The name Dhaka is apprently derived from ``Dhaak`` trees which may have been in abundance at that time. There are many such names around:
eg.
Plassy: Palash
Champaran:Champa Aranya or Forest of Champa trees
Bakait
#75 Posted by arjun_m on April 4, 2001 5:56:49 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#74 Posted by arjun_m on April 4, 2001 5:56:49 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#73 Posted by arjun_m on April 4, 2001 5:56:49 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#72 Posted by Asim on April 4, 2001 5:56:49 pm
As an aside, check out the following news
``Talibanisation of Americas.``
April 3, 2001
Web posted at: 3:23 PM EDT (1923 GMT)
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/04/03/hairless.fines/index.html
MACCLESFIELD, North Carolina (AP) -- Some clean-shaven guys could find themselves in a hairy situation in a couple of weeks. Beard-growing is now mandatory in Macclesfield, North Carolina. Any male without at least some stubble growing by April 15 will be subject to arrest and-or a 25 dollar fine.
Local officials enacted the beard ordinance to celebrate the town`s 100th birthday. Organizers say beard-growing is an old English tradition for special occasions.
But Gene Wallace says he`s ready to go to jail rather than risk his wife`s wrath. He says he grew a beard once, but she didn`t like it. Wallace notes that law or no-law, he still has to live with her.
``Talibanisation of Americas.``
April 3, 2001
Web posted at: 3:23 PM EDT (1923 GMT)
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/04/03/hairless.fines/index.html
MACCLESFIELD, North Carolina (AP) -- Some clean-shaven guys could find themselves in a hairy situation in a couple of weeks. Beard-growing is now mandatory in Macclesfield, North Carolina. Any male without at least some stubble growing by April 15 will be subject to arrest and-or a 25 dollar fine.
Local officials enacted the beard ordinance to celebrate the town`s 100th birthday. Organizers say beard-growing is an old English tradition for special occasions.
But Gene Wallace says he`s ready to go to jail rather than risk his wife`s wrath. He says he grew a beard once, but she didn`t like it. Wallace notes that law or no-law, he still has to live with her.
#71 Posted by macgupta on April 4, 2001 5:56:49 pm
Ferozk :
Non-alignment has far too often (seemed to me) to be geared towards Indian leaders` need to play to a gallery and primp their egos rather than a means to advance India`s interests.
India does have opportunities opening up; but you are right that each opportunity brings with it the possibility of loss.
-Arun
#70 Posted by harimau on April 4, 2001 5:56:49 pm
Ref png #: 67
[I am sickened with snobbish attitude of indians who think they or their country are so better. They try to be in league with other nuclear powers when most of their own people are living in the same slumps as in Pakistan, Sri Lanka or Bangladesh (P/S/B). Their literacy rate is at par with P/S/B.]
You are wrong here. The literacy rate in Sri Lanka is in excess of 89% whereas in India it is around 54%. Get your facts right.
The fact that Sri Lanka has a higher literacy rate doesn`t prevent them from being stupid in their treatment of their 20% minority Tamils.
Don`t attempt to compare that to the plight of Kashmiris. The Kashmiris constitute less than 1% of India`s population and will be squelched like cockroaches.
[I am sickened with snobbish attitude of indians who think they or their country are so better. They try to be in league with other nuclear powers when most of their own people are living in the same slumps as in Pakistan, Sri Lanka or Bangladesh (P/S/B). Their literacy rate is at par with P/S/B.]
You are wrong here. The literacy rate in Sri Lanka is in excess of 89% whereas in India it is around 54%. Get your facts right.
The fact that Sri Lanka has a higher literacy rate doesn`t prevent them from being stupid in their treatment of their 20% minority Tamils.
Don`t attempt to compare that to the plight of Kashmiris. The Kashmiris constitute less than 1% of India`s population and will be squelched like cockroaches.
#69 Posted by ferozk on April 4, 2001 12:36:18 pm
Re: Shankar and macgupta
Folks, the way the Bush administration is handling its international relations, one aspect of its tenor is becoming increasingly clear.
This administration, unlike past republican governments, is not isolationist, but unilaterist in approach to international affairs.
If you look at its intentions vis-a-vis the national missile defense; Kyoto climate treaty; irking China; and generally acting outside the gambit of international relations, it is risking its own isolation. Granted that the United States, as a sole super power will act on its own interests, but it has to deal in way that does not anger other countries. If European Union goes ahead with the ratification of Kyoto, Washington will find itself isolated in its own traditional sphere of influence: Europe.
Already, Russia is angered by the American dominated NATO drive to move towards the Russian border and if United States continues with its arms sales to Taiwan, it seriously risks seeing a Sino-Russian entente against it in Asia.
India may harbor ideas about playing China against America, but India has to tread carefully if it wants to avoid irritating Russian interests. Russian and Chinese interests will take predominance over Indian aspirations, because both Moscow and Beijing want to be the next bi-polar powers in Asia with the express intention of containing American influence in the area. Both China and Russia may disagree with each other, but they will agree to the fact that American influence is not a good thing for their policies in Asia.
India will have to do a clever diplomatic balancing act and given the ``wild card`` of Pakistan, India cannot afford to let Pakistan emerge as a Chinese protége in a regional sense. Iran is tilting towards Russia (in defense related matters and in gaining nuclear technology from Russia) and if India is not careful, it will be identified as a nation ``running with the foxes while hunting with the hounds``.
India will have to pick a side and stick with it. This may be a fine game plan, given a BJP rule, but if Congress returns to power, it may redirect India towards a non-aligned status and that would seriously annoy the Americans, who have every intention of playing India against China. Hence, India has more to close than gain in this new Asian ``great game`` of the 21st century.
Like I mentioned in my article, The Asian Waltz, there is a new game in Asia and its rules are just emerging. It will be really interesting to see how this game develops and how the nations of Asia team in the process!
Ciao!
Folks, the way the Bush administration is handling its international relations, one aspect of its tenor is becoming increasingly clear.
This administration, unlike past republican governments, is not isolationist, but unilaterist in approach to international affairs.
If you look at its intentions vis-a-vis the national missile defense; Kyoto climate treaty; irking China; and generally acting outside the gambit of international relations, it is risking its own isolation. Granted that the United States, as a sole super power will act on its own interests, but it has to deal in way that does not anger other countries. If European Union goes ahead with the ratification of Kyoto, Washington will find itself isolated in its own traditional sphere of influence: Europe.
Already, Russia is angered by the American dominated NATO drive to move towards the Russian border and if United States continues with its arms sales to Taiwan, it seriously risks seeing a Sino-Russian entente against it in Asia.
India may harbor ideas about playing China against America, but India has to tread carefully if it wants to avoid irritating Russian interests. Russian and Chinese interests will take predominance over Indian aspirations, because both Moscow and Beijing want to be the next bi-polar powers in Asia with the express intention of containing American influence in the area. Both China and Russia may disagree with each other, but they will agree to the fact that American influence is not a good thing for their policies in Asia.
India will have to do a clever diplomatic balancing act and given the ``wild card`` of Pakistan, India cannot afford to let Pakistan emerge as a Chinese protége in a regional sense. Iran is tilting towards Russia (in defense related matters and in gaining nuclear technology from Russia) and if India is not careful, it will be identified as a nation ``running with the foxes while hunting with the hounds``.
India will have to pick a side and stick with it. This may be a fine game plan, given a BJP rule, but if Congress returns to power, it may redirect India towards a non-aligned status and that would seriously annoy the Americans, who have every intention of playing India against China. Hence, India has more to close than gain in this new Asian ``great game`` of the 21st century.
Like I mentioned in my article, The Asian Waltz, there is a new game in Asia and its rules are just emerging. It will be really interesting to see how this game develops and how the nations of Asia team in the process!
Ciao!
#68 Posted by Studebaker on April 4, 2001 11:46:02 am
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#67 Posted by png on April 4, 2001 11:46:02 am
I am sickened with snobbish attitude of indians who think they or their country are so better. They try to be in league with other nuclear powers when most of their own people are living in the same slumps as in Pakistan, Sri Lanka or Bangladesh (P/S/B). Their literacy rate is at par with P/S/B. Their people and government are just as corrupt as in P/S/B. Do I need to remind everyone in recent arms deal scandal reaching to the top level military and political power. They are so proud of their tech industry, the fact is that most of their tech value is gone especially after a big scandal in their stock exchange. They are comparing themselves to other industrialized nations when they can`t even launch a freaking rocket. They want to join security council to become defenders of the world when millions of people are oppressed in their own country not to mention their human rights record in Kashmir.
Just making more babies don`t make you world power. I acknowledge indians are very capable people and so are people in P/S/B, but they need to address some basic needs before climbing up another ladder and they should loose infriority complex.
Just making more babies don`t make you world power. I acknowledge indians are very capable people and so are people in P/S/B, but they need to address some basic needs before climbing up another ladder and they should loose infriority complex.
#66 Posted by shankar on April 4, 2001 11:46:02 am
firstslip,
#51
Americans are as human as anyone else. Its human nature to think of his/her own interests above everyone elses. Hence the famous saying ``looking out for number one``. Since the US is the sole superpower, her interests are extremely important to every other country. Right, wrong or indifferent, thats the way the world turns.
During the cold war, the Soviet Union was a counterbalance to ``American hegemony``. Every country (including China) tilted towards either the Soviet Union or the US, depending on that country`s interests--irrespective of that country`s domestic ideology. Pakistan was more ``aligned`` to the US/West in opposition to the Soviet Union. For that ``service``, the West, esp the US rewarded Pakistan handsomely with military & economic aid.
You criticise the US for making a darling of these oil rich Arab states. How do you account for Pakistan`s behaviour towards these states? The way Pakistan brown noses these countries is pathetic. For S.Arabia to intervene on the behalf of Nawaz Sharif was a gross interference into a sovereign nation`s internal affairs. However, no GoP has ever criticised Saudi ``hegemony``. Have they criticised these countries for not doing more for Pakistan`s peeve about Kashmir? Are the Palestians more ``important`` muslims than the Kashmiris? After the steadfast backing Pakistan has provided to the Palestinian cause; all that these Arabs have done is murmured polite empathy towards the Kashmiris. Then those besharams turn around & give India a wink & a nod. Heck of a way for ``friends`` to behave! Pakistan KNOWS this, but does`nt do a damn thing about it. Why?! Is it because they are the only cash cows left for Pakistan?!
Has Pakistan ever made a big stink about the way China has treated the Tibetans? When it comes to Kashmir, Pakistan plays this pious,honorable country that wants to stand on vaunted principles of human rights & freedom. Hey, thats great! But then apply those principles to every country that tramples human rights--including their own. Many Pakistani Chowksters like to quote AI as the basis of Indian atrocities in Kashmir. The ``spin`` here is that they conveniently de-emphasise what the AI says about Pakistan or China, for that matter.
I dont want to single out Pakistan as hypocritical. India is just as much an ``equal opportunity whore``, based on her interests. India has made a big stink about Tibet,like Kashmir is someone elses problem! India`s notion of non alignment was absolute hypocracy. They were aligned to the Soviet Union, pure & simple. India`s claim to be the world largest secular democracy is hypocracy--pure & simple. What amuses me is that India now wants to play the US & China against each other. All things considered, India, despite her size, is pretty much insignificant in world affairs. However, she acts like she`s a legend in her own mind. One false move & she`ll land up antagonising both China & the US. Lets see how these bania coyotes walk through this mine field.
The bottom line is that EVERY country acts according to her INTERESTS, not ideology. This hypocracy applies to every human being & country. The US press is singled out because the US is the biggest kid on the block. Throughout history, the strong have dominated the weak. The strong have justified that hegemony by believing that only they know what is ``right`` or ``just``. Is that fair? NO! But thats reality.
``Sh *t happens``!! We have no choice but accept it. Whining about it wont do a damn thing.
#51
Americans are as human as anyone else. Its human nature to think of his/her own interests above everyone elses. Hence the famous saying ``looking out for number one``. Since the US is the sole superpower, her interests are extremely important to every other country. Right, wrong or indifferent, thats the way the world turns.
During the cold war, the Soviet Union was a counterbalance to ``American hegemony``. Every country (including China) tilted towards either the Soviet Union or the US, depending on that country`s interests--irrespective of that country`s domestic ideology. Pakistan was more ``aligned`` to the US/West in opposition to the Soviet Union. For that ``service``, the West, esp the US rewarded Pakistan handsomely with military & economic aid.
You criticise the US for making a darling of these oil rich Arab states. How do you account for Pakistan`s behaviour towards these states? The way Pakistan brown noses these countries is pathetic. For S.Arabia to intervene on the behalf of Nawaz Sharif was a gross interference into a sovereign nation`s internal affairs. However, no GoP has ever criticised Saudi ``hegemony``. Have they criticised these countries for not doing more for Pakistan`s peeve about Kashmir? Are the Palestians more ``important`` muslims than the Kashmiris? After the steadfast backing Pakistan has provided to the Palestinian cause; all that these Arabs have done is murmured polite empathy towards the Kashmiris. Then those besharams turn around & give India a wink & a nod. Heck of a way for ``friends`` to behave! Pakistan KNOWS this, but does`nt do a damn thing about it. Why?! Is it because they are the only cash cows left for Pakistan?!
Has Pakistan ever made a big stink about the way China has treated the Tibetans? When it comes to Kashmir, Pakistan plays this pious,honorable country that wants to stand on vaunted principles of human rights & freedom. Hey, thats great! But then apply those principles to every country that tramples human rights--including their own. Many Pakistani Chowksters like to quote AI as the basis of Indian atrocities in Kashmir. The ``spin`` here is that they conveniently de-emphasise what the AI says about Pakistan or China, for that matter.
I dont want to single out Pakistan as hypocritical. India is just as much an ``equal opportunity whore``, based on her interests. India has made a big stink about Tibet,like Kashmir is someone elses problem! India`s notion of non alignment was absolute hypocracy. They were aligned to the Soviet Union, pure & simple. India`s claim to be the world largest secular democracy is hypocracy--pure & simple. What amuses me is that India now wants to play the US & China against each other. All things considered, India, despite her size, is pretty much insignificant in world affairs. However, she acts like she`s a legend in her own mind. One false move & she`ll land up antagonising both China & the US. Lets see how these bania coyotes walk through this mine field.
The bottom line is that EVERY country acts according to her INTERESTS, not ideology. This hypocracy applies to every human being & country. The US press is singled out because the US is the biggest kid on the block. Throughout history, the strong have dominated the weak. The strong have justified that hegemony by believing that only they know what is ``right`` or ``just``. Is that fair? NO! But thats reality.
``Sh *t happens``!! We have no choice but accept it. Whining about it wont do a damn thing.
#65 Posted by Neptune on April 4, 2001 11:46:02 am
Re: Dost-mittar #55
[I also discovered that Dhaka is named after a Hindu goddess, Dhakeshwri, to which an ancient temple is dedicated in Dhaka. But what I found even more interesting was that none of my muslim friends in Dhaka (of which I made many during my stay) knew about this origin of their city`s name.]
Well, no. It is actually the other way round. The name Dhakeshwari (literally - goddess of Dhaka) is derived from Dhaka.
[I also discovered that Dhaka is named after a Hindu goddess, Dhakeshwri, to which an ancient temple is dedicated in Dhaka. But what I found even more interesting was that none of my muslim friends in Dhaka (of which I made many during my stay) knew about this origin of their city`s name.]
Well, no. It is actually the other way round. The name Dhakeshwari (literally - goddess of Dhaka) is derived from Dhaka.
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- Clark.Kent: Rashid, Wonder how you conclude... A Very Costly Bill
- ellora: #155: The British... With Never a Lamentation
- ellora: Pinku, stop defending the... Understanding Islamic Revival In
- Ranger98860: Pakistan Hijras Worldwise Riaz... Understanding Islamic Revival In
- Ranger98860: Ambedkar is probably the... Understanding Islamic Revival In
- Ranger98860: I am in favor... A Very Costly Bill
- Ranger98860: Who is this Maqbool... Who is Maqbool Bhat?
- jang: i am somewhat optimistic... A Very Costly Bill








reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content