Biases of the American Press
Omar Mirza April 1, 2001
#147 Posted by OMAR1974 on July 2, 2001 12:11:28 pm
Published Dawn Letters to the ed Wednesday,
June 27
Interest-based system
It was refreshing to read Z. Ali Mallah`s common sense view (letter, June 22 ``Interest based system``)that, ``World countries will stop investment as they will be no commitment of returns. People who have extra money in Pakistan will also stop depositing money in the bank for the very same reason.``
I would only like to add that in the absence of viable market-Islamic financial instruments, when the world has become a global village, capital flight is inevitable, as excess capital always seeks the highest return without regard to national ideology, only individual self-interest.
At that point, if the government is unable to pay its domestic debts, it will simply become insolvent, and when all the widows and pensioners who invest in national savings schemes queue up to ask for their principal (the face value of the government bonds they currently hold) they will all be told to go to hang themselves.
What a triumph for unelected Mullahism that will be! All will be equally hungry, poor, and destitute, just like in Afghanistan. Then, once mass despair with `Western influenced government institutions, and the absence of accountable government` has fully set in, the Mullahs can take over the government and run an utterly unabashed totalitarian state in which no one else has either modern democratic rights,half a say, or a free opinion. There won`t be any free press either. I assure you all of that.
What a master plan!
OMAR MIRZA
New York, USA
June 27
Interest-based system
It was refreshing to read Z. Ali Mallah`s common sense view (letter, June 22 ``Interest based system``)that, ``World countries will stop investment as they will be no commitment of returns. People who have extra money in Pakistan will also stop depositing money in the bank for the very same reason.``
I would only like to add that in the absence of viable market-Islamic financial instruments, when the world has become a global village, capital flight is inevitable, as excess capital always seeks the highest return without regard to national ideology, only individual self-interest.
At that point, if the government is unable to pay its domestic debts, it will simply become insolvent, and when all the widows and pensioners who invest in national savings schemes queue up to ask for their principal (the face value of the government bonds they currently hold) they will all be told to go to hang themselves.
What a triumph for unelected Mullahism that will be! All will be equally hungry, poor, and destitute, just like in Afghanistan. Then, once mass despair with `Western influenced government institutions, and the absence of accountable government` has fully set in, the Mullahs can take over the government and run an utterly unabashed totalitarian state in which no one else has either modern democratic rights,half a say, or a free opinion. There won`t be any free press either. I assure you all of that.
What a master plan!
OMAR MIRZA
New York, USA
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#146 Posted by Gnomad on May 8, 2001 7:44:45 pm
Mr. Mirza,
I think the comments you made in your article are accurate and formidable. In your ``bio`` at the end of your article it stated that you often have letters published in Dawn. Have you written any the the Post or the Times? If so, have they been published? This is, in my opinion, one way to get your views out into the open. Another is to write a book. You write well. Perhaps a fiction story based in fact will reach a wider readership and can create support for your point of view.
That is, of course, unless you want to return to Pakistan for a visit one day.
I think the comments you made in your article are accurate and formidable. In your ``bio`` at the end of your article it stated that you often have letters published in Dawn. Have you written any the the Post or the Times? If so, have they been published? This is, in my opinion, one way to get your views out into the open. Another is to write a book. You write well. Perhaps a fiction story based in fact will reach a wider readership and can create support for your point of view.
That is, of course, unless you want to return to Pakistan for a visit one day.
#145 Posted by mohajir on April 14, 2001 8:09:43 pm
Is Bush administration seeing India as strategic partner?
By Aziz Haniffa, India Abroad News Service
http://in.news.yahoo.com/010414/43/rhpx.html
Washington, Apr 14 - U.S. President George W. Bush`s drop by at a meeting between National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and Indian External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh earlier this month was more than just a protocol gesture.
In fact, his invitation to Singh to join him in the Oval Office was not only a carefully orchestrated move with potentially profound implications but a conscious decision to co-opt India into a strategic partnership, not so much as a counterweight to China but as a dependable ally in the region, say knowledgeable officials.
That the timing of Singh`s visit and Bush`s significantly long chat with him happened when Washington was sparring with Beijing, the sources acknowledged, was a coincidence, but they were making no apologies for it and asserted that if China perceived the U.S. as coveting India as a strategic partner, so be it, said senior officials, speaking to IANS on condition of anonymity.
Although some senior State Department officials and Singh -- who also wears the defense minister portfolio -- himself has said the nearly 40 minutes of conversation that Bush engaged him in could hardly be construed as a nudge to Beijing, particularly at a time when Washington was engaged in a serious spat with China over its spy plane, other officials including some in the Pentagon and the National Security Council acknowledged that there was more to it than meets the eye.
These officials said the Bush administration, especially the president, did not see the U.S. playing any aggressive or intermediary role in either Europe or the Middle East as its predecessor Clinton administration had done, but instead saw the potential new theater of engagement as Asia and, in that, China as the emerging threat.
The sources, to emphasize their point that the administration was intent to pursue its relationship with India to a significantly unprecedented strategic level, spoke of the meeting with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld that followed the meetings with the president, Rice, and Secretary of State Colin Powell.
Here was Rumsfeld, the most important of the triumvirate of President Bush`s foreign policy advisers and the person closest to Vice President Dick Cheney -- who had not too long ago grouped India with ``rogue states`` like North Korea and Iran, and slammed Russia for providing nuclear knowhow to India -- saying not only that he would have no qualms if the remaining sanctions against New Delhi were lifted, but entering into substantive agreements with New Delhi`s defense establishment.
They included a high-level dialogue between himself and the defense minister of India, analogous to the one that Singh and the State Department have been conducting, exchange visits between the chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff of the U.S. and the chiefs of staff of India, and other agreements in other areas of military agreement.
Here, at the very first meeting between the new administration`s defense secretary and Singh, were in principle agreements, which in one sweep envisaged expanding relations far beyond the hitherto mundane joint military exercises between the two countries, which according to the Pentagon sources, had hardly meant anything at all.
As a quid pro quo for India`s being a willing partner, the sources said the thinking in the strategic circles in the administration was that the dialogue with New Delhi be elevated to a serious security dialogue beyond the usual contentious non-proliferation component, which the Bush foreign policy team saw as an oxymoron anyhow because it had no intention of signing the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT).
That this thinking had preceded Singh`s visit by weeks, the sources said, was manifested by the president`s nomination of Harvard professor Robert Blackwill as the new ambassador to India. Blackwill`s having dealt with global politics in the National Security Council, when he served the current president`s father in the first Bush administration, and his recent interactions with the Russian and Chinese military officials was a deliberate decision to engage New Delhi seriously in a security dialogue, they said.
Thus, these officials told IANS that a conscious decision had been taken at the highest levels to co-opt India into a strategic partnership, not so much as a counterweight to China but as a dependable ally in the region and to indicate Washington`s intentions at the earliest possible opportunity. That the timing of Singh`s visit and Bush`s significantly long chat with him happened when Washington was sparring with Beijing, the sources acknowledged was a coincidence, but they were making no apologies for it and asserted that if China perceived the U.S. as coveting India as a strategic partner, so be it.
Stephen P. Cohen, director of the South Asia Program at Brookings Institution, believes Blackwill`s pending appointment was an extremely well-calculated move by the president on the advice of his strategic advisers, who believed the envoy-in-waiting`s expertise on the Chinese military`s psyche could be invaluable in seeking to co-opt India as a strategic ally.
Sumit Ganguly, professor of Asian Studies and Government at the University of Texas at Austin, told IANS, ``the State Department may well brush off the significance of the presidential nod to Jaswant. However, I am sure that the time spent with Jaswant was not accidental even if it was unplanned. Someone in his foreign policy entourage must have tipped off Bush of the potential utility of talking to Jaswant while the American crew were languishing in a Chinese military base on Hainan Island.``
However, Ganguly argued, ``The real issue, of course, is whether or not this meeting and the visit will lead to tangible improvements in Indo-U.S. relations or if they will remain only at the level of atmospheric changes.``
``It will be interesting,`` he said, ``to see if the administration in its quest for better ties with India works to lift sanctions further, allows the sale of dual use technology to India and starts addressing India`s deep-seated concerns about Pakistan`s feckless support to various insurgent groups in Kashmir such as the Lasksher-e-Taiba and the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen.``
According to a State Department official, the U.S. was not engaged in a ``zero-sum game`` with New Delhi and Beijing, as previous administrations had been accused of playing with India and Pakistan during the Cold War years.
``It (Singh`s visit) was a good opportunity that was very well used by both sides to get our relationship on a sound footing with the new administration,`` the official said.
By Aziz Haniffa, India Abroad News Service
http://in.news.yahoo.com/010414/43/rhpx.html
Washington, Apr 14 - U.S. President George W. Bush`s drop by at a meeting between National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and Indian External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh earlier this month was more than just a protocol gesture.
In fact, his invitation to Singh to join him in the Oval Office was not only a carefully orchestrated move with potentially profound implications but a conscious decision to co-opt India into a strategic partnership, not so much as a counterweight to China but as a dependable ally in the region, say knowledgeable officials.
That the timing of Singh`s visit and Bush`s significantly long chat with him happened when Washington was sparring with Beijing, the sources acknowledged, was a coincidence, but they were making no apologies for it and asserted that if China perceived the U.S. as coveting India as a strategic partner, so be it, said senior officials, speaking to IANS on condition of anonymity.
Although some senior State Department officials and Singh -- who also wears the defense minister portfolio -- himself has said the nearly 40 minutes of conversation that Bush engaged him in could hardly be construed as a nudge to Beijing, particularly at a time when Washington was engaged in a serious spat with China over its spy plane, other officials including some in the Pentagon and the National Security Council acknowledged that there was more to it than meets the eye.
These officials said the Bush administration, especially the president, did not see the U.S. playing any aggressive or intermediary role in either Europe or the Middle East as its predecessor Clinton administration had done, but instead saw the potential new theater of engagement as Asia and, in that, China as the emerging threat.
The sources, to emphasize their point that the administration was intent to pursue its relationship with India to a significantly unprecedented strategic level, spoke of the meeting with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld that followed the meetings with the president, Rice, and Secretary of State Colin Powell.
Here was Rumsfeld, the most important of the triumvirate of President Bush`s foreign policy advisers and the person closest to Vice President Dick Cheney -- who had not too long ago grouped India with ``rogue states`` like North Korea and Iran, and slammed Russia for providing nuclear knowhow to India -- saying not only that he would have no qualms if the remaining sanctions against New Delhi were lifted, but entering into substantive agreements with New Delhi`s defense establishment.
They included a high-level dialogue between himself and the defense minister of India, analogous to the one that Singh and the State Department have been conducting, exchange visits between the chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff of the U.S. and the chiefs of staff of India, and other agreements in other areas of military agreement.
Here, at the very first meeting between the new administration`s defense secretary and Singh, were in principle agreements, which in one sweep envisaged expanding relations far beyond the hitherto mundane joint military exercises between the two countries, which according to the Pentagon sources, had hardly meant anything at all.
As a quid pro quo for India`s being a willing partner, the sources said the thinking in the strategic circles in the administration was that the dialogue with New Delhi be elevated to a serious security dialogue beyond the usual contentious non-proliferation component, which the Bush foreign policy team saw as an oxymoron anyhow because it had no intention of signing the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT).
That this thinking had preceded Singh`s visit by weeks, the sources said, was manifested by the president`s nomination of Harvard professor Robert Blackwill as the new ambassador to India. Blackwill`s having dealt with global politics in the National Security Council, when he served the current president`s father in the first Bush administration, and his recent interactions with the Russian and Chinese military officials was a deliberate decision to engage New Delhi seriously in a security dialogue, they said.
Thus, these officials told IANS that a conscious decision had been taken at the highest levels to co-opt India into a strategic partnership, not so much as a counterweight to China but as a dependable ally in the region and to indicate Washington`s intentions at the earliest possible opportunity. That the timing of Singh`s visit and Bush`s significantly long chat with him happened when Washington was sparring with Beijing, the sources acknowledged was a coincidence, but they were making no apologies for it and asserted that if China perceived the U.S. as coveting India as a strategic partner, so be it.
Stephen P. Cohen, director of the South Asia Program at Brookings Institution, believes Blackwill`s pending appointment was an extremely well-calculated move by the president on the advice of his strategic advisers, who believed the envoy-in-waiting`s expertise on the Chinese military`s psyche could be invaluable in seeking to co-opt India as a strategic ally.
Sumit Ganguly, professor of Asian Studies and Government at the University of Texas at Austin, told IANS, ``the State Department may well brush off the significance of the presidential nod to Jaswant. However, I am sure that the time spent with Jaswant was not accidental even if it was unplanned. Someone in his foreign policy entourage must have tipped off Bush of the potential utility of talking to Jaswant while the American crew were languishing in a Chinese military base on Hainan Island.``
However, Ganguly argued, ``The real issue, of course, is whether or not this meeting and the visit will lead to tangible improvements in Indo-U.S. relations or if they will remain only at the level of atmospheric changes.``
``It will be interesting,`` he said, ``to see if the administration in its quest for better ties with India works to lift sanctions further, allows the sale of dual use technology to India and starts addressing India`s deep-seated concerns about Pakistan`s feckless support to various insurgent groups in Kashmir such as the Lasksher-e-Taiba and the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen.``
According to a State Department official, the U.S. was not engaged in a ``zero-sum game`` with New Delhi and Beijing, as previous administrations had been accused of playing with India and Pakistan during the Cold War years.
``It (Singh`s visit) was a good opportunity that was very well used by both sides to get our relationship on a sound footing with the new administration,`` the official said.
#144 Posted by sigalph235 on April 12, 2001 3:35:43 am
re mohajir # 144
The leftist intelligentsia often misunderstands the the coup that left SHeikh Mujib and his familt dead. In its love of everything that stinks of anti-Americanism, the pinkos ignore the reality of the dictatorship that Mujib created. Please don`t mislead others about this. The facts are as follows:
1. Mujib was the murderer of democracy in 1975 when he created a one-party state that was policed by his Gestapo known as the `Rakhibahini`.
2. Mujib`s one-party state allowed only four newspapers, all, of course, government controlled.
3. Mujib`s security forces killed thousands of political opponents including valiant freedom fighters just like Pinochet`s did. Interestingly enough, some bodies were never found.
4. Mujib, in January 1975 decreed all judges and top civil servants to be become memebers of his one-party BKSAL system. Those who refused, a la General PM, were retired.
5. On the day he was assasinated, Mujib was to be declared `President fo Life` at the Dhaka University campus.
6. Mujib`s son was caught red handed in late 1974 while attempting a robbery of the gold vault at Bangladesh Bank.
7. Kennedy said it best, ``those who make reform impossible, make revolutions inevitable``.
8. Notwithstanding the nonsense about Kissinger and CIA`s involvement, the revolt of 1975 againts the Mujib dictatorship was led entirely by officers and men who were freedom fighters of 1971 and had little love for the US. The fact remains that the top leaders of the coup resided in Libya (Amercian ally, eh?) for the longest time after the coup.
9. Mujib was a great leader of the War of Independence of 1971. He destroyed his standing by detroying the very freedom that 3 million Bengalis died for. In this regard a man named Benedict Arnold comes to mind-great freedom fighter until greed got the best of him.
10. For all his patriotism, Mujib let walk free those 195 officers of the Pakistan Occupation Forces against whom there were serious allegations of genocide.
11. Please save us Bengalis the grief over a fallen dictator.
The leftist intelligentsia often misunderstands the the coup that left SHeikh Mujib and his familt dead. In its love of everything that stinks of anti-Americanism, the pinkos ignore the reality of the dictatorship that Mujib created. Please don`t mislead others about this. The facts are as follows:
1. Mujib was the murderer of democracy in 1975 when he created a one-party state that was policed by his Gestapo known as the `Rakhibahini`.
2. Mujib`s one-party state allowed only four newspapers, all, of course, government controlled.
3. Mujib`s security forces killed thousands of political opponents including valiant freedom fighters just like Pinochet`s did. Interestingly enough, some bodies were never found.
4. Mujib, in January 1975 decreed all judges and top civil servants to be become memebers of his one-party BKSAL system. Those who refused, a la General PM, were retired.
5. On the day he was assasinated, Mujib was to be declared `President fo Life` at the Dhaka University campus.
6. Mujib`s son was caught red handed in late 1974 while attempting a robbery of the gold vault at Bangladesh Bank.
7. Kennedy said it best, ``those who make reform impossible, make revolutions inevitable``.
8. Notwithstanding the nonsense about Kissinger and CIA`s involvement, the revolt of 1975 againts the Mujib dictatorship was led entirely by officers and men who were freedom fighters of 1971 and had little love for the US. The fact remains that the top leaders of the coup resided in Libya (Amercian ally, eh?) for the longest time after the coup.
9. Mujib was a great leader of the War of Independence of 1971. He destroyed his standing by detroying the very freedom that 3 million Bengalis died for. In this regard a man named Benedict Arnold comes to mind-great freedom fighter until greed got the best of him.
10. For all his patriotism, Mujib let walk free those 195 officers of the Pakistan Occupation Forces against whom there were serious allegations of genocide.
11. Please save us Bengalis the grief over a fallen dictator.
#143 Posted by mohajir on April 11, 2001 12:28:01 pm
Book Title: The Trial of Henry Kissinger (English)
Author: Christopher Hitchens
Review: This books describes how US and Henry Kissinger were involved in supporting Pakistan in the massacre of 3.6 million Bengalis during the Bangladesh war. Also they were involved in coup of Bangladesh which killed Shiekh Hasina`s entire family. This book is a must read for all Bangladeshis and Pakistanis. (maybe Indians too)
With the detention of Augusto Pinochet, and intense international pressure for the arrest of Slobodan Milosovic, the possibility of international law acting against tyrants around the world is emerging as a reality. In this incendiary book, Hitchens takes the floor as prosecuting counsel and mounts a devastating indictment of a man whose ambitions and ruthlessness have directly resulted in both individual murders and widespread, indiscriminate slaughter. He investigates and reveals Kissingers` involvement in: the deliberate mass killings of civilian populations in Indochina; the deliberate collusion in mass murder and assassination in Bangladesh; the personal suborning and planning of a murder, of a senior constitutional officer in a democratic nation that the USA was not war with - Chile; the incitement and enabling of a mass genocide in East Timor; and the personal involvement in the kidnap and murder of a journalist living in Washington DC.
Author: Christopher Hitchens
Review: This books describes how US and Henry Kissinger were involved in supporting Pakistan in the massacre of 3.6 million Bengalis during the Bangladesh war. Also they were involved in coup of Bangladesh which killed Shiekh Hasina`s entire family. This book is a must read for all Bangladeshis and Pakistanis. (maybe Indians too)
With the detention of Augusto Pinochet, and intense international pressure for the arrest of Slobodan Milosovic, the possibility of international law acting against tyrants around the world is emerging as a reality. In this incendiary book, Hitchens takes the floor as prosecuting counsel and mounts a devastating indictment of a man whose ambitions and ruthlessness have directly resulted in both individual murders and widespread, indiscriminate slaughter. He investigates and reveals Kissingers` involvement in: the deliberate mass killings of civilian populations in Indochina; the deliberate collusion in mass murder and assassination in Bangladesh; the personal suborning and planning of a murder, of a senior constitutional officer in a democratic nation that the USA was not war with - Chile; the incitement and enabling of a mass genocide in East Timor; and the personal involvement in the kidnap and murder of a journalist living in Washington DC.
#142 Posted by jay on April 11, 2001 12:28:01 pm
anNY,
CHOWK AND SEVILLE ROW,
Everything has its place in the scheme of things, chowk at best have two threads where there is some fire works, that is chowk, look at the imagery, it is street with narrow lanes, there are small shops, awkward signage, uncouth personnel, not the saville row of suited men in top hats. Every body knows the rules, indo-pak articles makes its slow beginning till some one spills the blood and there is a posting frenzy, it exceeds 200 easy, and if there are a few more like the urtruly, ali1 etc, it easily exceeds 500. one cannot have an exchange of 500 posts of distilled wisdom. Once the frenzy starts it is the turn of the pious and the meek to quitt the thread, any how they inherit the earth, at least according to bible.
on a personal note, the highest state of human being is one of total awareness of oneself, and in t your case if you can sense the feeling of hatred towards hindus and become aware of it, then you have no hatred, most likely not towards any one. One who is hateful wallows in it unaware of it. what is supreme is the integrity, not to give in to pretensions in the hope achieving something, even when it is trivial, the respect from an unknown group using psuedo names.
Value loaded name calling to the extent that one is compelled to post very personal experiences to prove otherwise is a trend that need to be fought.
regards
jay
CHOWK AND SEVILLE ROW,
Everything has its place in the scheme of things, chowk at best have two threads where there is some fire works, that is chowk, look at the imagery, it is street with narrow lanes, there are small shops, awkward signage, uncouth personnel, not the saville row of suited men in top hats. Every body knows the rules, indo-pak articles makes its slow beginning till some one spills the blood and there is a posting frenzy, it exceeds 200 easy, and if there are a few more like the urtruly, ali1 etc, it easily exceeds 500. one cannot have an exchange of 500 posts of distilled wisdom. Once the frenzy starts it is the turn of the pious and the meek to quitt the thread, any how they inherit the earth, at least according to bible.
on a personal note, the highest state of human being is one of total awareness of oneself, and in t your case if you can sense the feeling of hatred towards hindus and become aware of it, then you have no hatred, most likely not towards any one. One who is hateful wallows in it unaware of it. what is supreme is the integrity, not to give in to pretensions in the hope achieving something, even when it is trivial, the respect from an unknown group using psuedo names.
Value loaded name calling to the extent that one is compelled to post very personal experiences to prove otherwise is a trend that need to be fought.
regards
jay
#141 Posted by Ordinary on April 11, 2001 1:25:11 am
Omar, I really disappointed in you, why it`s the job of NYTimes or for that matter the west or other western media to do the PR job for Pakistan. Whose job it is? Anyway. Doesnt the positive image thingy start at home, what Pak has done lately (or fiffty so yrs) to improved its image. Why should we then complain `biased west` is not reporting the positive side of us. When we indeed providing the fuel to the fire.
West didnt created the honour killing, Ahmedi bashing, Karo kari, and all that not so good with Pakistan. It is us who are to blame. We never have really worked hard to improve our image at all, we do or did is just blame other for our miseries. What we need is a serious soul searching even if it comes at the cost of Talbanization of Pak, so be it(then we gonna learn the very hard way). Yes indeed!
West didnt created the honour killing, Ahmedi bashing, Karo kari, and all that not so good with Pakistan. It is us who are to blame. We never have really worked hard to improve our image at all, we do or did is just blame other for our miseries. What we need is a serious soul searching even if it comes at the cost of Talbanization of Pak, so be it(then we gonna learn the very hard way). Yes indeed!
#140 Posted by ali1 on April 10, 2001 8:53:43 pm
RE: # 193 aNNy
[When I started interacting at chowk some time back, I would view bilal ahmed sahabs posts with much suspicion and incredulity. Like, could he be for real? Itnee tameez aur saleeqa was hard to digest. It was only when we had a teacher to take our literature class last semester that I understood his kind of people. Iftikhar Shafi a teacher of the English department at the University of Karachi in his mid 20`s (I think) taught us literature for 6 months. The man was so incredibly humble, nice (for desperate want of better words).......]
--WARNING--WARNING--WARNING--WARNING--WARNING--
Dear Anny, please BEWARE of the humble (slick), nice (glib) professors and ex-professors of KU or any other Pakistani Univ.
- The saleeqa and tameez are instruments that help in trapping the young innocents. Marketing ploys for their ideologies if you like.
- These sly Profs. exist on all sides, left of center and as well as right of center. Thus we have Jamaati sweet talkers, Commie/Liberal sweet talkers, Tableeghi sweet talkers, Mohajir sweet talkers etc. etc.
- They are aware of and at times even control the ``nastier`` side of the tanzeem. So a Jamaa`ti sweet talker knows about the existence of the danda and the KK brigades and could be part of the ``decision making`` body that decides on where to use the danda or the KK.
- Even if one believes in the Islamic or the Liberal or some Punjabi/Sindhi cause, these can be served better once education is done.
Just my 2 cents.
[When I started interacting at chowk some time back, I would view bilal ahmed sahabs posts with much suspicion and incredulity. Like, could he be for real? Itnee tameez aur saleeqa was hard to digest. It was only when we had a teacher to take our literature class last semester that I understood his kind of people. Iftikhar Shafi a teacher of the English department at the University of Karachi in his mid 20`s (I think) taught us literature for 6 months. The man was so incredibly humble, nice (for desperate want of better words).......]
--WARNING--WARNING--WARNING--WARNING--WARNING--
Dear Anny, please BEWARE of the humble (slick), nice (glib) professors and ex-professors of KU or any other Pakistani Univ.
- The saleeqa and tameez are instruments that help in trapping the young innocents. Marketing ploys for their ideologies if you like.
- These sly Profs. exist on all sides, left of center and as well as right of center. Thus we have Jamaati sweet talkers, Commie/Liberal sweet talkers, Tableeghi sweet talkers, Mohajir sweet talkers etc. etc.
- They are aware of and at times even control the ``nastier`` side of the tanzeem. So a Jamaa`ti sweet talker knows about the existence of the danda and the KK brigades and could be part of the ``decision making`` body that decides on where to use the danda or the KK.
- Even if one believes in the Islamic or the Liberal or some Punjabi/Sindhi cause, these can be served better once education is done.
Just my 2 cents.
#139 Posted by concerned on April 10, 2001 1:46:04 pm
jay,
i don`t see how you can continue after reading anNy`s post.
:O)
i don`t see how you can continue after reading anNy`s post.
:O)
#138 Posted by anNy on April 10, 2001 1:10:36 pm
Cyra Reply # 136
``anNY...enough of the emotional melodrama already!``
cyra..doll..must we be nasty?
Eklavya # 132
``The ability to interact with such a diverse, knowledgeable, and intelligent group of people is nothing short of pure miracle.``
I agree wholeheartedly with your post and especially the above Sir. Its incredible being part of a community such as this. If u can, please mail me at annythedud@yahoo.com. (this is what chowk does..i`m asking an INDIAN to mail me!!nothing short of a miracle I assure you)
I still find it hard to believe you`re an Indian though :0)
Jay # 137
When I started interacting at chowk some time back, I would view bilal ahmed sahabs posts with much suspicion and incredulity. Like, could he be for real? Itnee tameez aur saleeqa was hard to digest. It was only when we had a teacher to take our literature class last semester that I understood his kind of people. Iftikhar Shafi a teacher of the English department at the University of Karachi in his mid 20`s (I think) taught us literature for 6 months. The man was so incredibly humble, nice (for desperate want of better words) we couldn`t stop staring- it was like an Indian movie (no offence here) where every single individual in the class was touched by his goodness, even the idiotic political activists we have in our class. He is some where in the U.S now, conducting research on sufism and may he be happy wherever he is. People like you and me consider people like him and bilal sahab freaks. We fight and diss each other thinking of only our goal, nation, religion and ideology. Would it ever cross your mind that a post by you which is derogatory towards Pakistan will make many momentarily miserable and for the more jazbatee like me, more or less dampen the day? I`m not being sappy and emotional here at all; just trying to make you understand like I did, not very long ago that it is people like Bilal sahab and Sir Shafi who lend some sanity to this otherwise budtameez world. And to say mean things like `senseless expressions of indignations` and `damp squids` is not a very nice thing to do. You say people like them have sold their souls. Atleast its not soiled with hate like yours and mine, haanjee?
``anNY...enough of the emotional melodrama already!``
cyra..doll..must we be nasty?
Eklavya # 132
``The ability to interact with such a diverse, knowledgeable, and intelligent group of people is nothing short of pure miracle.``
I agree wholeheartedly with your post and especially the above Sir. Its incredible being part of a community such as this. If u can, please mail me at annythedud@yahoo.com. (this is what chowk does..i`m asking an INDIAN to mail me!!nothing short of a miracle I assure you)
I still find it hard to believe you`re an Indian though :0)
Jay # 137
When I started interacting at chowk some time back, I would view bilal ahmed sahabs posts with much suspicion and incredulity. Like, could he be for real? Itnee tameez aur saleeqa was hard to digest. It was only when we had a teacher to take our literature class last semester that I understood his kind of people. Iftikhar Shafi a teacher of the English department at the University of Karachi in his mid 20`s (I think) taught us literature for 6 months. The man was so incredibly humble, nice (for desperate want of better words) we couldn`t stop staring- it was like an Indian movie (no offence here) where every single individual in the class was touched by his goodness, even the idiotic political activists we have in our class. He is some where in the U.S now, conducting research on sufism and may he be happy wherever he is. People like you and me consider people like him and bilal sahab freaks. We fight and diss each other thinking of only our goal, nation, religion and ideology. Would it ever cross your mind that a post by you which is derogatory towards Pakistan will make many momentarily miserable and for the more jazbatee like me, more or less dampen the day? I`m not being sappy and emotional here at all; just trying to make you understand like I did, not very long ago that it is people like Bilal sahab and Sir Shafi who lend some sanity to this otherwise budtameez world. And to say mean things like `senseless expressions of indignations` and `damp squids` is not a very nice thing to do. You say people like them have sold their souls. Atleast its not soiled with hate like yours and mine, haanjee?
#137 Posted by shankar on April 10, 2001 10:02:13 am
scout,
I go away from Chowk for a few days & whats this I see? youre going to leave chowk?!! Are you crazy?!! Who the heck is going to check Saxena now? Do you know how many times you have gouged out his family jewels with one slash of your keyboard? Never mind that rakshash grows new ones like sharks do when they lose their teeth.
I`m sorry I teased you about him. I was just giving you guys a taste of your own medicine when you were teasing ylh.
Listen, if moderates start leaving Chowk, then this place will be occupied only by bigots. A few of my posts to harimau are being censored by Chowk staff. I may disagree with the logic behind their censorship, but I have to respect their privilege & perogative to do so, as they own this site. Despite that, its a great place for all to read, write & think.
Please reconsider. Chowk will be unbearable without my cute little jalapeno kid sister.
I go away from Chowk for a few days & whats this I see? youre going to leave chowk?!! Are you crazy?!! Who the heck is going to check Saxena now? Do you know how many times you have gouged out his family jewels with one slash of your keyboard? Never mind that rakshash grows new ones like sharks do when they lose their teeth.
I`m sorry I teased you about him. I was just giving you guys a taste of your own medicine when you were teasing ylh.
Listen, if moderates start leaving Chowk, then this place will be occupied only by bigots. A few of my posts to harimau are being censored by Chowk staff. I may disagree with the logic behind their censorship, but I have to respect their privilege & perogative to do so, as they own this site. Despite that, its a great place for all to read, write & think.
Please reconsider. Chowk will be unbearable without my cute little jalapeno kid sister.
#136 Posted by jay on April 10, 2001 10:02:13 am
anNY 131
ABUSE AND VIOLENCE,
There are a few on the chowk, who believe in `civilised` exchange on the chowk, these are the ones from the west who have sold their soul. In all of the indian languages there is a rich vocabulary of abuses, they provide the relief for the tensions, with out leading to physical violence. The so called black turned whites with the help of industrial grade bleach, verbal abuse like like it is to their cultural heros, is terrible, but they have no problems in killing a few with remote controlled bombs in bagdad, no hurt sense of civility when a man is sent to prison for 25 years for stealing a pizza, provided he has been called `sir`, and then locked up. In india, he would have been abused, given a kick and sent home. That is barbaric. It is types of bilal ahmed who are trying to establish a western style of exchange on an essentially indo-pak forum with their senseless expressions of indignations. If they had cared to reflect back into their past, into their early surrounds they would have realised what they are talking about is the white mans shallow values. It is pathetic to see these individuals coming to the arena of heated exchanges with their damp sqibbs, they should stick with the poetry threads and try to get some flavours off the brown sugar preparations. What is on chowk is the indo pak style, the mud slinging and posturing, never real violence. Men killed in the so called three indo pak wars is less than what the great white men of US knock off at homes in a year, the culture and style of exchange, the allegedly civilised on the forum are trying to foster on chowk.
I lost track of the original topic, may be later.
regards
jay
ABUSE AND VIOLENCE,
There are a few on the chowk, who believe in `civilised` exchange on the chowk, these are the ones from the west who have sold their soul. In all of the indian languages there is a rich vocabulary of abuses, they provide the relief for the tensions, with out leading to physical violence. The so called black turned whites with the help of industrial grade bleach, verbal abuse like like it is to their cultural heros, is terrible, but they have no problems in killing a few with remote controlled bombs in bagdad, no hurt sense of civility when a man is sent to prison for 25 years for stealing a pizza, provided he has been called `sir`, and then locked up. In india, he would have been abused, given a kick and sent home. That is barbaric. It is types of bilal ahmed who are trying to establish a western style of exchange on an essentially indo-pak forum with their senseless expressions of indignations. If they had cared to reflect back into their past, into their early surrounds they would have realised what they are talking about is the white mans shallow values. It is pathetic to see these individuals coming to the arena of heated exchanges with their damp sqibbs, they should stick with the poetry threads and try to get some flavours off the brown sugar preparations. What is on chowk is the indo pak style, the mud slinging and posturing, never real violence. Men killed in the so called three indo pak wars is less than what the great white men of US knock off at homes in a year, the culture and style of exchange, the allegedly civilised on the forum are trying to foster on chowk.
I lost track of the original topic, may be later.
regards
jay
#134 Posted by sigalph235 on April 9, 2001 11:52:56 pm
re india and iran
SO there is something to be said for the term ``indo-aryan`` eh?
Next thing you know, Pakistan`s mullah class will claim that the Shiites were Hindus all along!
In all fairness, the Taleban must be given credit for bringing everybody worth the name on one side (Pakistan and the Saudis being the exceptions). Who could`ve thought that Iran, USA, Russia, France, and India will all be allies for a little bit?
SO there is something to be said for the term ``indo-aryan`` eh?
Next thing you know, Pakistan`s mullah class will claim that the Shiites were Hindus all along!
In all fairness, the Taleban must be given credit for bringing everybody worth the name on one side (Pakistan and the Saudis being the exceptions). Who could`ve thought that Iran, USA, Russia, France, and India will all be allies for a little bit?
#133 Posted by sigalph235 on April 9, 2001 11:52:56 pm
re ferozk
Buddy, I thought the Mormons had cut you off from the internet or your good wife had put some sense in you!
Anyway, I agree with just about everything you said in the last post with this exception:
``Sig, the current tete a tete is nothing more than Freudian attempt to determine who is the ``big boy`` in Asia. ``
On this one I think a little more than Freud and Jung are involved. I trust this is an effort to balance the military discomfort with acute economic needs. Heck, I am the last one who wants a conflict with China. America`s economy will take a serious hit if that happens.
Buddy, I thought the Mormons had cut you off from the internet or your good wife had put some sense in you!
Anyway, I agree with just about everything you said in the last post with this exception:
``Sig, the current tete a tete is nothing more than Freudian attempt to determine who is the ``big boy`` in Asia. ``
On this one I think a little more than Freud and Jung are involved. I trust this is an effort to balance the military discomfort with acute economic needs. Heck, I am the last one who wants a conflict with China. America`s economy will take a serious hit if that happens.
#132 Posted by sigalph235 on April 9, 2001 11:52:56 pm
re scout
Your opinions and mine are more often divergent than not. But please don`t leave. Philosophy and politics like we discuss here are but mere efforts to shed some light in the massive darkness and all of us play our part in our God given capacities. One less effort is one less flicker of light. So, in the words of Firaq,
``Tum judaa hoge to ho jaaegi yeh raat pahaar,
Raat ke raat thahr jao ke kuchch raat kate``
We are all travellers in darkness at some point. Keep us company.
Your opinions and mine are more often divergent than not. But please don`t leave. Philosophy and politics like we discuss here are but mere efforts to shed some light in the massive darkness and all of us play our part in our God given capacities. One less effort is one less flicker of light. So, in the words of Firaq,
``Tum judaa hoge to ho jaaegi yeh raat pahaar,
Raat ke raat thahr jao ke kuchch raat kate``
We are all travellers in darkness at some point. Keep us company.
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