Biases of the American Press

An interesting topic Omar!

Looking forward to the discussion, which will ensue on this topic.

Ciao!

Omar Mirza

A very good analysis.

In order to better assess the situation viz a viz Western media (particularly US) and Pakistan one must explore the answer to the following questions:

1. Has there been one single government in Pakistan that has been ``disobediant`` or confrontational with US on any one single issue since the end of Cold War?

2. If Pakistan`s nuclear progarm is THE issue then why treat Pak different from India. It is India and not the Pakistan where religious nuts are in power and whose fingers are itching to press the red button, then why single out Pak.

Unless one is from planet Mars it is not difficult to understand that the World is headed towards another Cold War. This Cold but still subtle confrontation has already started between West and the China. China`s confrontation with West especially on the issues of World Trade Agreements and Globalization are well known-where China is demanding a more equitable World Order as compared to what West wants. This Cold War will be different in a sense that it is not the West directly in ``military`` confrontation or arms race with China, instead this time India is being used as the point man. It is interesting to note that US Department of State is already using the term ``Strategic Partner`` for India. One may wonder, Strategic Partner against whom? One must also bear in mind the difference between the term ``Strategic Partner`` and ``Allies`` before we further this discussion. Pakistan was once a ``Strategic Partner`` with US in the war against Soviet Union in Afghan War, not anymore; whereas Austrailia, NewZealand, Japan are ``Allies`` in this part of the world.

Now when isolation of China will start, which wont be easy, it will be compellled to get into the Cold War style arms race with India. India has already started running in this race even before someone has blown the wistle. China, when isolated, will naturally try to find Strategic Allies and markets to counter that situation and Pakistan because of its history with India is a natural choice as an ally. That explains the Chinese cooperation in Pak nuclear program.

Now in this situation India has its own agenda against Pakistan, which is known to us since 14 August 1947. It may want to take care of this headache first before embarking on a full time confrontation with China which may not really be in plans but just a facade.

As long as China is alive and well I dont think that signing off on CTBT and relinqishing its Nuclear program will do any good to Pakistan-it just simply wont stop at that point. Therefore in conclusion Pakistan`s Kashmir policy and its Nuclear Policy are both right on track. US gotta find some other way to contain China. Pak will not and cannot be backed down wrt India.

The truth, my dear Pakistani friend, has 5 axes. Three are spatial, one is that of time and the last is that of perspective !

I can quite understand why you are upset about Pakistan getting negative press in the west. But what I see is that you are rankled as to why India is not getting the same. I cant make a claim that India is more ``progressive`` than Pakistan, since I havent seen your country. But I can tell you one thing. Ten years ago, there was a sense of despondency in the nation. Today, after economic reform, there is a palpable excitement in the air. You find upbeat people, an optimism of a kind, a can-do attitude. Indians have started to believe in themselves. A few successes here and there reinforced that belief. And you know what, these things spread like wildfire.

Consequently, people who come in contact with Indians take a better view of the country with them. This is not to say that media organizations are not biased. I make no such claim. What you see is a ``feel good`` feeling that has rubbed off on them.

About the ``rise`` of ``Hindutva``, which all Pakistanis keep harping about. The ``death of secularism`` and all that balderdash. I dont see it happening in my lifetime. You see, Indian society has seen n number of such ``movements``. These are passing fancies, essentially the nature of an Indian is to accept. If you have ever met a normal Indian, you will be able to see what I mean. Just because a bunch of street goons in the Shiv Sena decide to knock down a building, all Indians dont metamorphise into devils. I know you would like to believe in all that. After all, it gives you a sense of ``look, they are as bad as us``.

I also admire the fact that you are able to notice a few redeeming qualities in your ``enemies``. Good for you.

Your article was generally ok until I came across the underlying message. About this great ``Indo-Isreali`` combine that is out to destroy you.

Get real. The world is not all about you. I am sorry to inform you that you come from a nation that is a blip on the international radar. If you are pragmatic enough, it becomes apparent that there are no conspiracies etc.

The alternative of course is to go the David Koresh [Waco fame] way - dig a trench, clutch your missiles close to your chest and go to war with your real and imagined foes.

I wish you and your nation well. It would do well to remember that India is the big boy on the block and will remain so. The sooner this strikes home, the better. Fortunately for you, we are peace-loving folks. That does not mean we will give you the other cheek. Pakistan just isnt ready to reconcile to living with India as a friend.

I like the fact that the writer remains a scourge of fundamentalism, but I`d really be impressed if he lived in Karachi and wrote much of the same. Omar, we speak of the Zionist/Indian/Gabonese conspiracy against Pakistan, but let`s face the facts on ground zero....there isn`t much positive activity happening. bearded zealots burning american flags and yearning for the 10th century makes good airtime for the likes of dan rather. As for what India is doing in Held Kashmir....simply put their spin doctors are much more effective than ours. they spend more money training their diplomats and deal with ``obstacles`` way better than our own goons. In the end that`s what it`s about - intellectual capital. they`ve managed to harness theirs while we`re still trying to figure out which province gets how much after after 50 years of existence.

I don`t know about America`s Worst Nightmare, but a Taliban-like scenario is very possible here, and it`s every peace loving Pakistani`s worst nightmare. I`d like to suggest you come back and work against it.....quite a dilemma for you isn`t it? must be nice to keep the ``crusader`` image intact without putting anything on the line? ;)

Sir, I agree with most of what you say but WHY do you have to try to bring in a note of relativity vis-a-vis India in the coverage of Pakistan by the US media? Please appreciate that India, like other countries, is a huge land mass, has a vast variety of people and issues and points of view and you therefore cannot use us as a single point of reference.

It is like saying that George Bush`s views on the Kyoto Protocol are shared by everybody if the US.

As for an independent tv channel for Pakistan, may I suggest you watch Zee TV? They, very often, now have special programmes for and from Pakistan which treat matters without reference to India.

But yes, boss, I think you need to try to answer one last question: assuming that the free and democratic Pakistan is now just a question of time, then would you and others on this board like to place a best case/worst case time frame?

From what I hear, best case 1 year and worst case 3 years?

Omar,

Another pathetic abcd pakistani article, what a self deprecating reason for a democracy in pakistan, to get good reports in the US news papers.

May be it is time for the paksistanis to read something more than their on propaganda, the alleged human rights issues in kashmir maynot be all that bad, there may not be 700,000 indian troops, the jihadists may be a lot more than they think, and a country that supports jihadists that can take on the army of another country may be a `terrorist` supporting state.

Wake up call for pakistanis, others are spitting on your swag.

regards

jay

It`s a Jewish-Hindu conspiracy. Don`t you know the American media is run by Jews?

Heck, as Spout was saying a while back, even CNN is into the conspiracy (even though it`s owner is not Jewish).

Bechaara Pakistan...no one likes it anymore :(

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By being undemocratic, muzzling the press, and it`s economy in shambles, Pakistan has provided ample ammunition in the West to those who hate it, namely the Jewish lobby in the US and those Hindus who love to kick Pakistan while it`s down and who would, therefore, want to keep it that way.

The article`s conclusion is correct. Unless Pakistan becomes democratic with free press and independent judiciary, kicking it around would be a child`s play for it`s enemies. Without liberal democracy, independent judiciary and free press, Pakistan has got no future. Simple as that.

Pakistan enemies don`t have to be very intelligent to convince the Americans that Pakistan is America`s worst nightmare. Pakistan itself has made their jobs exceedingly easy. More often than not, as it happens in sports, your opponent beats you not because he was good, but because you lost the game yourself.

YOU WANT TO KNOW HOW THE JEWISH CONTROLLED MEDIA IS SUPRESSING THE FREE SPEECH IN THE USA??? READ CONGRESSMAN PAUL FINDLEY`S ``THEY DARE TO SPEAK``. IT IS AVAILABLE ON AMAZON.COM AND WILL OPEN YOUR EYES AS TO HOW THE SO CALLED `FREE MEDIA` IN THE USA RUN BY THE JEWSIH TERRORIST GROUPS IS RUNNING THE COUNTRY AND WILL NOT ALLOW ANY FREE SPEECH OR WRITING.

Pakistan must diassociate from Taliban. Stop fueling the Kashmiri terrorists and stop all the madrassahs that spread hatred. It is not just US but the entire world press is against Pakistan. Look at the BBC, Australian News, European newspapers. Do they project Pakistan positively?

This week it is going to be a major upset for Pakistan when Afghan opposition leader addresses European Parliament and blasts Pakistan for all the misery brought to Afghan people.

--

The invitation to Afghan opposition leader Ahmad Shah Masood to address the European Parliament this week is likely to enrage the ruling Taliban militia and their ally Pakistan, analysts said Monday.

Masood, the former defence minister under ousted president Burhanuddin Rabbani, has been invited by the European Union (EU) to address the European Parliament in Strasbourg on Thursday.

It will be a major diplomatic coup for the opposition commander, who has led the resistance against the hardline Islamic militia since 1996 when the Rabbani government was driven from Kabul.

Analysts here said the gloves appeared to have come off in the EU`s diplomatic struggle with the Taliban following the militia`s destruction of ancient Buddha statues despite international protests last month.

The Taliban, which control most of the country with a unique brand of Islamic law, yearn for international recognition but so far only Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates have obliged.

``The French government had ominously warned the Taliban that they would earn the world`s hostility if they went ahead with the destruction of the statues,`` wrote Rahimullah Yusafzai, a columnist with the News daily in Pakistan and a follower of Afghan affairs.

``The invitation to Masood to visit Strasbourg and Paris and deride the Taliban could very well be the first manifestation of the hostility to which the French government was referring.

``By shunning one armed faction, ie the Taliban, and befriending another, ie the Northern Alliance (under Masood), the European Parliament and other Western countries may be stoking the fire of continued fighting.``

Parliament President Nicole Fontaine on Saturday described Masood as ``vice-president of the Islamic State of Afghanistan.``

But the Taliban insist that Rabbani`s ``Islamic State`` has been destroyed and now the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, a military theocracy headed by Taliban chief Mullah Mohammad Omar, is the government.

Despite the Taliban`s claims that they control some 90 percent of the ocuntry, the Islamic State also holds Afghanistan`s seat at the United Nations.

Fontaine said Masood, a Tajik who speaks halting French, had been invited to ``explain the situation in his country,`` and would have the opportunity to meet parliamentary groups and hold a news conference.

She cited ``serious and repetitive`` violations of fundamental rights and personal dignity in Afghanistan, and referred to the Taliban`s strict laws regarding female employment and education.

Afghan women ``are banned from working outside and are subjected to physical and moral violence from another age, particularly young girls, who are excluded from the education system,`` she said.

``Women are the principal victims of a fanaticism that hides behind the Muslim religion which it betrays.``

Whatever the greater implications of the visit, it is sure to provide a captivating spectacle.

Masood, a turbaned warrior who is most at home with his rag-tag troops in the valleys and snow-capped mountains of northeastern Afghanistan, will cut a striking figure in the halls of European power.

``The Western media`s interest in Masood, often portrayed as the Lion of the Panjshir for defying the Soviet Red Army ... has always been high and one should be ready for saturation-level coverage,`` Yusafzai wrote.

He said Masood would almost certainly use his speech to launch a ``verbal tirade`` against neighbouring Pakistan, which is widely accused of supplying the Taliban with vital technical and material military assistance

The ``objectivity`` of the American media is shaped by many different things: (1)What is perceived to be in American interests, (2) What would be acceptable to the public, (3) The business interests of the media, etc. To a large extent these influences overlap but they also tend to run independent of each other. During a war, American interests are paramount and exposing atrocities by American troops could wait until the war is over. After that, winning an award here and there may motivate the reporters to write about things covered up previously. But, if it is perceived that the public can handle it, and indeed even demands it, then you have expose`s galore even in the midst of a war. The fact that America was, incredibly, losing a war which was becoming unpopular at home compelled the media to express outrage at a few select atrocities in Vietnam, where millions of people were slaughtered by American bombs and troops. You don`t hear about Panama where some 3000 innocent civilians were killed by American bombing in their zeal to capture Noriega. You don`t see the NYT or WP writing editorials clamoring for the trial of George Bush for war crimes. Again, serving American interests, or what newspapers consider to be so, hugely important. Even more important of course is selling papers. If the public won`t accept it, the newspapers won`t cover it. You won`t see the Detroit papers exposing the shenanings of GM & Ford or Delaware papers being critical of Dupont. First and foremost, however, is serving their own business interests. Newspapers write editorials and influence reporting of stories all the time where they have a conflict of interest. What else do you expect from business houses to whom newspapers and TV are another way to make money?

In sum, if India were seen as against American interests - as it was during the cold war - then India would be covered from the FakirSnakecharmerPovertyPagan angle. But for now it is the land of programmers and IITs.

Check out FAIR.org

Well of course American perception will be `biased`. It has been shaped over the decades by the Gaddafi, the PLO, the Hammas, Assad and Saddam, who, whatever the legitimacy of their beef, showed a willingness to `retaliate` agaist civilians in acts of terrorism. It isn`t just Muslims who are victims of this biased perception -- the Commies were too, and now the Chinese are. If the Indian GOVERNMENT was seen as supporting terrorism, you can rest assured a `bias` will develop against them too. (Of course, some imbeciles would like to see Kashmir in a nice -black-and-white light here. Go ahead!)

Oh, nad let`s not factor out stragetic ocnsiderations too, which we can thank God exist. Pakistani Muslims can lament the by products of the Afghan war all they like, but would they rather be singing the Russian national anthem today??

--------

Superpowers don`t need to be held to any higher moral standard (wrt `biases`) than do other nations. This is so much more whining and moaning about being `unjustly` treated.

Yale University is holding a Conference on Pakistan India relations to which I have been invited and will be attending....

BORDERING ON PEACE: A CONFERENCE ON INDIA-PAKISTAN RELATIONS

April 6-7, 2001

Linsley-Chittenden Hall(LC), Room 102

At Yale University

New Haven, Connecticut

Keynote Speeches:

Zamir Akram- Deputy Chief of Mission, Pakistan Embassy in Washington,DC

Shashi U. Tripathi- Consul General of India in New York

Panel A: The Economics of South Asia: An Instrument of Cooperation?

-Imran Anwar, CEO, EverTrac, Inc., Founder of the first Internet Service

Provider in Pakistan

-Shahid Javed Burki, Former Vice President of the World Bank, CEO of EMP

Financial Advisors

-Rahul Tongia, Research Fellow, Department of Engineering and Public

Policy at Carnegie Mellon University

Schedule for Friday, April 6:

6.00 PM : Keynote Speech - Shashi U. Tripashi

6.30 PM : The Economics of South Asia: An Instrument of Cooperation?

Schedule for Saturday, April 7:

11.30 AM : The Security Situation in South Asia

1.00 PM : Lunch Reception with Panelists

2.30 PM : Keynote Speech- Zamir Akram

3.00 PM : Cultural and Historical Perspectives

4.30 PM : Closing Comments

In addition to the panels, there will be a Student Discussion Session

and a Declaration Session on Saturday. Please email

sanjit.konda@yale.edu for detailed information or visit the ICRG webpage

at http://www.yale.edu/icrg

The conference is free and open to the public.

For more information about ICRG, practical information about attending ``Bordering on Peace`` (including directions), please visit our webpage:

http://www.yale.edu/icrg

You can also e-mail engin.yenidunya@yale.edu or

dipali.mukhopadhyay@yale.edu, call Engin at (203)436-1289 or Dipali at

(203)436-0872.

Hope to see you all there :)

YLH

A really good article and its been long time since such an objective analysis has been done. I still Think that we should start changing and thinking

about ourself instead of thinking what jew-hindu

communities are doing against us. If we are a

functioning democracy with all these abnoxious

mullahs cronered and left to have their pleasures

in the confines of their Hujjras we might

win a bit of respect in the world. There is an urgent need for us to understand our position

and our responsibilities in the changing world.

This is a fact that WHAT WORKED IN PAST MAY NOT

WORK TODAY so instead of putting in place a system that worked miricles 1400 years ago lets think of

the ways to have a system that can do miricles again for us.

Have fun.

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[...The question is why is Pakistan, and not India ``America`s Worst Nightmare?``...]

the day india starts an assembly line producing robots chanting `death to america`, and starts naming its babies `osama`, and starts sending soldiers of islam all over the world to wage a jehad against the enemies of islam, would be the day india would become america`s worst nightmare.

till then, pakistan would keep the trophy.

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Rsaxena # 7

``Bechaara Pakistan...no one likes it anymore :( ``

roses are red

violets are blue

Rsaxena is an icky old roach in my loo

he reeks of petroleum,

regurgitated boiled rice,

of droppings of pigeons

and farts shot by mice

of hydrogen sulphide and

remnants of the flu

phlegm coughed by millions

of retards that he knew

of gullets of buffalo

of crap soaked in cream

defacation dump opened

Kirk`s half only beamed

blood spurts from incisions

and flesh thus exposed

failed circumcissions:

the organs disposed

of briefs during papers

of socks shed by mouts

of breath in the mornings

and the pellets of goats

You, my dear man are annoying me.

Bill Clinton played a major role in improving India-US relations. Indian community also plays a important role. He wrote this article on his second visit to India starting tomorrow April 3 in aid of Gujarat earthquake victims.

Clinton`s India Yatra

Partners in spirit, partners in fact

By William Jefferson Clinton

Over the past eight years, I had the privilege of traveling to nearly 100 nations around the world on behalf of the United States of America. There are few trips that meant as much to me than the journey I took last year to India. This week, I will return to India.

When you think about how you`d like the world to look in 20 years - in Africa, in Asia, in Latin America, even in the Middle East - it`s hard to imagine how we could build the future we want without a partnership between the world`s two greatest democracies. After all, India and America are natural allies, each conceived in liberty, each finding strength in diversity, each seeing in the other a reflection of its own aspirations for a more humane and just world. But even though our democratic ideals gave us a common starting point, and our dreams of peace and prosperity gave us a common destination, for too long there was too little common ground between us.

I came to India last year with the hope that my visit would help the American people to see a new India and to better understand this proud nation that has given so many gifts to the world. In turn, I hoped that my visit would help India to better understand America. I believed that listening to one another, we could lay the foundation for a true partnership between our two nations based on mutual respect and common endeavour. I was heartened to see that following that many Indians now believe that a new day has dawned between us.

Of all the displays of grace that I saw on that trip last year, none compare to the overwhelming response of the Indian people to the victims and families of the devastating earthquake in Gujarat. Over the past two months, the tireless efforts of all those involved in the relief effort have proven that the worst natural disaster in Independent India`s history has brought out the best in its people.

But as news of the tragedy fades from world headlines, the urgency of the work still to be done must not. That is why I am returning to India -- to tour the affected areas, to meet with families and relief agencies, and to bring new attention to the challenge of reconstruction that remains.

As India knows all too well, there is much to be done. The numbers alone numb the senses -- more than 20,000 dead, 1.7 million injured, one million homeless. More than 1,200 schools were destroyed. More than one million homes must be repaired or rebuilt. For all the work that has been completed, damage estimates still reach above 350 billion rupees. And there is no way of accounting for livelihoods lost and lives disrupted.

Nothing can erase the devastating loss of the earthquake. Perhaps the best way to honor those who were lost in this terrible tragedy is work with the survivors to create a better future.

One positive development over the past two months is that the tragedy in Gujarat has given impetus to the creation of a new organization in America called the American India Foundation. This is a group of distinguished Indian-Americans who have contributed a great deal to our country, and who want to deepen their engagement with India to help India realise its vision for the 21st Century. This week, more than 20 distinguished members of this Foundation will tour Gujarat with me.

We hope to work with the people of this region to achieve their vision of a new Gujarat -- to work with government agencies, non-governmental organizations (NGO`s), and concerned Indians not just to build Gujarat back, but to build it better. In the short term, we hope to work with local officials in any way they need us to provide relief to meet basic needs and help Gujarat get back on its feet, be it rebuilding schools and providing teachers; repairing hospitals and providing doctors; or empowering people to reopen businesses by making credit available.

In the long-term, we want to be a resource to the people of Gujarat as they work toward their dream of bringing this region and its people into the 21st Century: by wiring schools for the Internet and other tools of the new economy; by bringing the next life-saving devices into hospitals and health centers; by using new technology to help local craftsmen market their products across India and across the world; by including local villagers in the planning process to avoid the well-intentioned but widely acknowledged mistakes of Latur and construct new buildings designed not only to withstand future earthquakes, but to meet the needs of local citizens. For centuries, the vision of the Indian people helped change the world. That same vision is at work in villages across the region today, and we will be honored to be a part of it.

While we pray that no future disasters will visit India, we know that nature has not been so kind. As many in Parliament have expressed, we share the hope that our common efforts to rebuild Gujarat will serve as a model for future efforts, particularly as Parliament works toward establishing a federal emergency management agency for India. This is intended to help the people of India endure everything from tornadoes to floods to hurricanes and emerge, in the end, even stronger.

All of this work will not be completed quickly. But the partnership I spoke of last year between the people of the United States and the people of India is not subject to time limits or deadlines. This is how partners in spirit become partners in fact. I pledge to do all I can to help make that goal a reality.

(Former US President Bill Clinton wrote this article exclusively for The Times of India.)

Mohajir:

This is the reason why US-India relations are imroving.

Getting India right

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20010402-394893.htm

Richard D. Fisher Jr.

America is entering a geopolitical moment: It now has the opportunity to forge a beneficial relationship with arising ``good`` superpower in a manner that provides a strong but positive balance to the rising ``bad`` superpower.

First things first. India is the ``good`` rising superpower. For more than 50 years, India has been a vibrant democracy. Just ask former Defense Minister George Fernandez, who recently resigned his portfolio because his underlings were caught taking bribes. Indians will be the first to admit their democracy is ponderous. But which one isn´t? And it is the law that ultimately prevails in India.

China is the ``bad`` rising superpower. For more than 50 years, China has been ruled by the men who lead its Communist Party. Real democracy is forbidden and any other seemingly organized opposition is brutally crushed. Nor do the ruling communists seem to tolerate other Chinese democracies. Just ask Taiwan, or even Hong Kong´s increasingly stifled democrats.

Both India and China are developing nations that have sectors of technological brilliance that contrast with areas of stark underdevelopment. The challenge for both is how to best throw off the shackles of socialism, which restrict opportunity and impede economic growth. Today foreign money bets on China, but the long-term edge may be with India. In India, successful entrepreneurs benefit from a legal system and are more likely to keep their rewards. In China, entrepreneurs must navigate a maze of corruption, and they can lose it all, and their lives, if they run afoul of the party.

Both India and China are now building nuclear missiles. One can question whether India started its nuclear missile race with Pakistan, but it now clearly behind, and cannot begin to match China´s arsenal. China´s expanding missile forces are pointed at its democratic neighbors Taiwan in particular. China sold Pakistan the means to build nuclear weapons and its new Shaheen solid-fueled missiles. At the same time, China is leading a global propaganda barrage against American missile defense plans. Some serious Indian defense experts suggest that cooperating with the U.S. in missile defense would benefit Indian security.

India and China are also competitors for future influence in South and East Asia. China wants to become the region´s hegemon. So far, it is China that arms the states on India´s borders, not the other way around. Though successive U.S. administrations say they will prevent the rise of such a hegemon, Asians are hedging their bets. Asian states from Singapore to Japan are quietly looking for ways to increase their strategic cooperation with India.

So should Washington, if it wants to continue its positive influence in the same region. Unfortunately, India and the United States have been at cross-purposes for most of the last 50 years, be it the Cold War divide, North vs. South politics, and socialism vs. capitalism. So lacking in overarching mutual interests, U.S. relations with the world´s largest democracy have been driven by a train of important but secondary issues: conflict with Pakistan; conflict over Kashmir; and India´s nuclear program.

Former Presidents Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr. tried to break out of this pattern by initiating a defense dialogue with India that was no doubt helped by the collapse of the Soviet Union. By the end of the Bush administration, the U.S. was even selling defense technology to India, like advanced engines for its Light Combat Aircraft program.

But this good beginning was cut down as the new Clinton administration sought to meddle in the Kashmir dispute. Any hope for improved defense ties were blown away by U.S. sanctions imposed following India´s 1998 nuclear tests. Most galling to Indians was the Clinton administration´s willingness to echo Chinese demands that India abandon its nuclear program while doing nothing to stop China´s nuclear traffic with Pakistan. It was simply shameful that CIA Director George Tenet could not publicly state that China was responsible for the sale of technology that enabled Pakistan´s new sold-fuel missiles until after Bill Clinton left town. Today more than 150 Indian entities are under U.S. nuclear-related sanction compared to less than a handful of Chinese entities.

It is time for the U.S. to break this pattern and seek strategic cooperative ties with India that demonstrate a U.S. recognition that India´s emergence as a future democratic superpower can benefit American security. For starters, the new Bush team would do well to state that the U.S. and India have an interest in preventing China´s nuclear and missile proliferation and its quest to be a regional hegemon. Washington should also end nuclear-related sanctions that prevent the resumption of a defense dialogue, that at a minimum, should take up where the previous Bush administration left off.

Ultimately, both the U.S. and India would benefit from helping forces in China that would move it toward democracy. For each the levers to do so are few, but one stands out: By helping a billion Indians develop a democratic superpower in this century the U.S. can help prove to a billion Chinese that they can have prosperity together with the freedom they now lack.



Richard D. Fisher Jr. is a senior fellow with the Jamestown Foundation.

All Pakis should read the following news item from Washington Times. Looks like Tehelka expose has done a lot of good to India by showing the world resilence of Indian democracy. Some excerpts are as follows.

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20010402-394893.htm

``First things first. India is the ``good`` rising superpower. For more than 50 years, India has been a vibrant democracy. Just ask former Defense Minister George Fernandez, who recently resigned his portfolio because his underlings were caught taking bribes. Indians will be the first to admit their democracy is ponderous. But which one isn´t? And it is the law that ultimately prevails in India.

China is the ``bad`` rising superpower. For more than 50 years, China has been ruled by the men who lead its Communist Party. Real democracy is forbidden and any other seemingly organized opposition is brutally crushed. Nor do the ruling communists seem to tolerate other Chinese democracies. Just ask Taiwan, or even Hong Kong´s increasingly stifled democrats.

``

``It is time for the U.S. to break this pattern and seek strategic cooperative ties with India that demonstrate a U.S. recognition that India´s emergence as a future democratic superpower can benefit American security. For starters, the new Bush team would do well to state that the U.S. and India have an interest in preventing China´s nuclear and missile proliferation and its quest to be a regional hegemon. Washington should also end nuclear-related sanctions that prevent the resumption of a defense dialogue, that at a minimum, should take up where the previous Bush administration left off.

Ultimately, both the U.S. and India would benefit from helping forces in China that would move it toward democracy. For each the levers to do so are few, but one stands out: By helping a billion Indians develop a democratic superpower in this century the U.S. can help prove to a billion Chinese that they can have prosperity together with the freedom they now lack.

``

Democracy might seem to be what will make the US attitude towards Pakistan change but then we have the examples of Algeria, Egypt etc. countries where US has supported non-democratic Governments. Even in Pakistan during Zia`s and Ayub`s regimes Pakistan was a US `ally`.

West always looks forward to safeguard its interests. That is perfectly understandable but it might not be acceptable since their changing policies create havoc with the developing economies - like that of Pakistan. All of us know what interests the West is looking out for. Lets see how the US would behave if Russia were to come into Afghanistan again, I am sure all the problems with the Pakistani domestic structure would be accepted as `a part of any developing country`s environment`, massive amount of aid would again roll in, and Pakistan would star in another Bond movie as a safe haven for the free world!

Mirza pyare,

A very good and well researched piece written with all the innocence and naivete of a round eyed schoolboy. Rather refreshing amidst all the cynicism.

``Why`` indeed ``why don`t they condemn the indians``

They wont because they need to use us...whether as a counterweight to PRC or a dumping ground for their obsolete technology or a marketor whatever.

The world is a harsh and hard place, there are no

Marquis of Queensbury rules here. I thought this was common knowledge by now.

bakait

Good, thought provoking article Omar.

I stopped reading the NY Times when it published a hate-monging AD sponsored by some extremist Indian group against Pakistan and Pakistanis. I believe I can find better news sources (Wall Street Journal, CNN, our own desi newspapers).

But I also believe Anamika has a point when she says that newspapers have to make money and please the public they are circulated in. NY City and it`s vicinity is teeming with Jews, why would the NY Times publish something anti-Israeli. Imagine all those bearded Rabbis tearing down the NY Times doors, demanding an explanation. In the same vein, they choose to publish negative articles about Pakistan since it is pro-Palestinian. It`s all a political game.

Americans are not dumb people either, unless they are brainwashed or just plain racist. They understand the hypocricies and politics of newspapers.

I had the pleasure of meeting NY senator Chuck Schumer at an Pakistani Eid Dinner, and in his speech, he expressed his concerns about the negative portrayal of Pakistan in the US as well as the issues faced by Kashmiris.

As far as US`s love for India lately, I personally don`t think the US gives a rat`s as * about Pakistan or India. As far as India is concerned, what more could the US want than a bunch of coconut oil dripping humble hardworkers getting down and dirty for the benefit of the United States of America. Now that`s the way to run a country. Extract the best from other countries to build your own.

And Indians think they are being loved for being ``oh so very democratic and secular.``

Yeah Right!

The following joke summarizes the American newspaper scene.

NEWSPAPERS

1. The Wall Street Journal is read by the people who run the country.

2. The New York Times is read by people who think

they run the country.

3. The Washington Post is read by people who think

they ought to run the country.

4. USA Today is read by people who think they ought to run the country but don`t understand the Washington Post.

5. The Los Angeles Times is read by people who wouldn`t mind running the country, if they could spare the time.

6. The Boston Globe is read by people whose

parents used to run the country.

7. The New York Daily News is read by people who

aren`t too sure who`s running the country.

8. The New York Post is read by people who don`t care who`s running the country, as long as they do something scandalous.

9. The San Francisco Chronicle is read by people who aren`t sure there is a country, or that anyone is running it.

10. The Miami Herald is read by people who are running another country.

Why is it so important to the author how we are viewed by the western press while the problems themselves are only mentioned in passing? Is the fact that CBS had a documentary on the subject even remotely comparable in importance to the fact that we do have armed lashkars roaming the country that threaten to turn the country into another Somalia? I think we should thank the CBS for highlighting this problem rather than whining about unequal criticism and conspiracies. But the only issue the author (like so many other Pakistanis commentators) seems to have is of our image in the west, while being blissfully unconcerned with the problems themselves.

Re: spout

``I stopped reading the NY Times..``

Is it because they use really big words?

``Imagine all those bearded Rabbis tearing down the NY Times doors``

Hah, I think you`re confusing bearded Rabis for bearded Mullahs who are far more likely to tear anything down. Jews made New York and Wall Street! Everyone knows that and respects them. Pakistan`s claim to fame in New York is Yousef Ramzi blowing up the World Trade Center.

As for CNN, weren`t you complaining about it the last time this issue came up? Now it`s reliable again? What a joke.

An excellent article ! The one flaw to me is that it is another article with Pakistan measured in relation to India rather than Pakistan on its own merits.

As a regular reader of the New York Times myself, I would like to point out that actually coverage of India (or Pakistan ) is quite scanty.

For instance, go to www.nytimes.com and search for articles that mention India, Pakistan, etc. during the past year, and get counts like :

India :1478

Pakistan:506

Kashmir:145

In contrast, Germany had 3084 mentions, China had 3408, Taiwan had 655, North Korea had 764, Singapore had 387. Kosovo had 809.

Most Americans get their news from television. Going to abcnews.com and using the search on their home page, the counts are India - 1778, Pakistan - 1153, Kashmir - 277, Germany - 3556, China - 4759, Taiwan - 953, North Korea - 672, Singapore - 663, Kosovo - 2521.

So, the first thing I would note is that India gets relatively little attention considering its size; and likewise for Pakistan.

The next thing to note is that it is big business and big labor (unions) that exert themselves over US foreign policy. Apart from this, the average American gets concerned only when Americans are sent overseas for combat duty. This is especially true after the end of the Cold War.

So perhaps the news coverage affects foreign policy; but it seems more likely that the foreign policy experts and business and labor influence news coverage. That is, wages and working conditions in a foreign country become of interest to a newspaper because an American factory is moving overseas, and not because of some crusader in the media who wants to bring some injustice into the American public eye.

To sum up, here be potential war, here be potential business, these are the two things that govern the meagre coverage given the third world in the American media. Genuine curiosity or concern is scarce.

India gets mentioned on both counts of war and business. Pakistan in its current state is mentioned only because of the former. I hope that lays to rest any illusions anyone has of the tails of South Asia wagging the dog of American media.

-Arun Gupta

Pakistanis, please calm down. There is nothing wrong in calling a spade a spade...that`s all the American media is doing viz-a-viz Pakistan.

If you must raise a ruckus, go protest in front of the NY Times building with little green plastic shaheed missiles, osama t-shirts, and loudspeakers.

There does seem to be a cold war looming -- just this weekend the tempers in China and America have flared over the incident with the American plane.

But there is a big difference in the situation now and that which existed between the Soviet Union and America.

The Soviet Union was an expansionist state, and the exporter of an ideology and armed insurrection. China has certain territorial ambitions but they are limited in scope. Nor is China the exporter of an ideology.

The Soviet Union and America had nowhere near the economic ties and investment that exists between China and America. Tthe US and China are basically in agreement about harnessing capitalism in contrast to the sharp disagreement with the Soviet Union.

Thus, any cold war will be because of China`s rulers` attempts to stay in power over an energetic people without their consent. E.g., China`s leaders are growing belligerent over Taiwan. Americans have recognized the Chinese claim, but cannot take the new aggressiveness. The disagreement is about means and not ends. Chinese leadership cannot agree to what would be acceptable means to the US because it would mean possible loss of control in China. So there is a dispute brewing there.

But it is unlikely that this will take on the dimensions of The Cold War.

Coming closer to home, despite all the rhetoric, India-China trade increased over 7-fold during the past decade and now exceeds that of Pakistan-China substantially. Moreover, after the Pokharan tests, India-China trade has actually increased by around 9% while Pakistan-China trade has declined by around 5%.

With the just-few-day-old liberalization of tariffs on consumer goods in India, Chinese trade with India is set to jump.

China does not want the Uighurs of its western Xinjiang province inducted into radical Islam; nor does it want Central Asia destabilized. It would therefore be at odds with Pakistan over the export of Islamic revolution from Afghanistan. Nor would it acquiesce in any jihadi success out of the fear that this would only add fuel to the fire.

Therefore Pakistan cannot take a Chinese alliance for granted. Growing economic ties and a common fear of the consequences of Islamic fundamentalism may yet make partners of India and China.

-Arun Gupta

macgupta on Apr-2-01 Reply #: 31

You are my main man, my hats off to you.

Shame on the Saffron clad Bubbas. Ya`ll go jump in the overflowing sarswati. Omar Mirza, you go jump in Munchar Lake, your article $ucks. God bless the soul who may rely on your legal opinion.

Gurv say kaho hum Bharati hain.

We all need to take pride in true Bharati culture and not in some westernized, corrupt INDIAN culture.

But most Americans think of Pakis as better people than Indians. All the cow, smell and ugly women jokes are made towards Indians. I have read this on discussion forums. This one I go to, usually has some topics everyday as to how ugly Indian women are. Some people in there mention that Paki women and people look better than Indians.

rSUXena various posts,

First of all, take a deep breath, relax and put your dhoti down. (as one of my professors would say `shaat up ya moron`)

Secondly, I personally have never mentioned disdain for Jews in NY so why are you getting all hot and bothered? Please stop fantasizing over an imaginary Pakistani vs. Jew brawl.

I agree, they have control over every aspect of NY City and adjoining areas. I am in a university program that is run by Jews. I have yet to encounter any negativity towards Pakistan or Pakistanis from any of them. But guess where I do encounter negativity?

Two Indian classmates. Now isn`t that ironic.

Why don`t you guys just chill?

As far as the NY Times is concerned, you may love it and salivate over it to your hearts content. I will not. It`s not the only newspaper in the world and not the only news source. Kapeesh?

ps: Please lose your autopilot anti-Pakistan agenda. You are a better person without it.

``ratiocinator

It would do well to remember that India is the big boy on the block and will remain so. The sooner this strikes home, the better.``

here is all the problem my friend ...its a long story...the Indians have never accepted the existence of Pakistan by heart, look even before independence they were claiming that this country will not be able to survive not even for 10 years, n since 1947 they r trying their best to somehow prove their cliam...a land built in the name of Islam on the land which the Hindus beleive is only for hindus...the biases of the Western media is an open secret...they dont raise voices against kingdoms in middle east, but want to safeguard ``democracy`` in pakistan, which was present in its worst form before 12-oct-1998, democracy is not of much concern to common men, we pakistanis need a government in which justice prevails, form of the government really really doesn`t matter....LET US DECIDE OUR OWN FATE AND STOP DICTATING US.

whine whine whine.....

{``Until Pakistan becomes a functioning democracy, ........ it will remain `America`s Worst Nightmare.```}

Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Egypt etc. are not functioning democracies exactly, but America loves them nevertheless.

whine whine whine....

NYT is a ``business`` whose ONLY objective like any other business is to create wealth for its shareholders.

whine whine whine....

Scout pyari, kabhi to socha karo. Has it ever occur to you that there may be some truth to what these newspapers are saying? Precisely what Tahmed says, instead of seeing the real problems you guys are worried about your image. Who gives a damn if you do not read NYP.... Hosh me aon, josh me bahekne se pehle.

Mr. Mirza

You will also note That very little is written about the civil war in Algeria, The Genocide in Chehniya, as well as the shameless, wholly immoral abandonment of Biharis in Bangladesh. Remember HE is watching and it is never to late to right a wrong. Any Muslim, any where in the world who wants to be a Pakistani citizen, should have the right to avail him or herself of that citizenship. But I digress,

It is important to note, that the NYT or WP are not the conscience of the world. One would be an oaf and a very lazy and unworldly one to believe that news, opinion or editorial about any topic in American or any other handful of papers is just objective, unbiased reporting. No need for emotional responses. These are just the rules of the game.

To Pakistanis and all Muslims, American media misunderstand you, mispresent you - and they are OK with that. If you be serious people (as in self respect)then, shau them, THE MONEY! or withdraw it. Spend MONEY to train your own, help them get jobs in these and other media, SUPPORT them. Make generous political contributions. And remember to PUNISH those who CHOOSE to be against you, till they change their attitude and behaviour. The world only takes those people seriously, who take themselves seriously. The world loves only those who first love themselves. Pakistanis, first love yourselves. First approve of yourselves. others will follow. This too, is a Universal Law, a rule of the game. Az tau HARKAT, Az maan BARAKAT.

Make sure that new Masajid and madrassahs are well funded, developed and staffed by educated, dedicated, reasonable academicians. Ensure the Universal message of the ``Merciful and Compassionate`` is broadcast far and wide (with the emphasis on MERCY and COMPASSION, for HE loves the sinner, the wreatched, the weak and the sick, who need his grace, love and guidance the most) Endow Colleges and Universities. Fund Hospitals. Learn How Catholics and Jews fund their instituitions. Begin with a small clinic. In America it is DO or the dole (witness the misery, the alienation of the African American). And there is no Law or accident of class barring you from succeeding! So stop the Whine! Be cheerful, tell them to bring it on! And SUCCEED. Remember to Love your fellow Pakistani first. LEAD and the world will follow.

It is not that American press is againt or for any country. The simple fact is America is a totally capitalist country with a sham democracy and lip service for human rights driven only by financial profit. For $20 an average American would kill his own mother. It happens everyday. Schoolkids kill each other because they are bored. Human rights don`t applt for the Arabs,Indians, pakistanis etc,unless, ofcourse they happen to be Anglo-Saxons. Killing millions of other ``non-white```folks is just ok in the name of democracy. The simple fact is that Amererica is an arrogant bully and a thug. It operates like a mafia hit man with its little evil lapdog England in intimidating and bullying other small states. The current situation with the gounded spyplane clearly shows the evil of American foreign and defence policies. Firstly, America was caught by the brave Chinese pilots and the plane was brought down. The arraogance of the pompous US ambassador sums it up when he had the gall to say that the aircraft can not be boarded under international law. It is a bit rich coming from a country that has killed, bombed and maimed innocent people all over the world and is still doing it. It has a president that was elected by fraud, just because daddy wanted junior to be the president. To show that the US is an inclusive society, the wasp establishement pick up a few token minorities like Colin Powell and Condelessa Rice to play unle tom and aunt jamima. Ms Rice seems to be totally oblivious to history. The honorable thing for China would be to confisicate the plane (reverse engineer it and sell the copies0 and lock up the 24 animals (crew) in a zoo for display.

Omar,

Hanging by a straw,

Pakistanis are always on the look out for a mandate, they want some reason for a democracy. IT is all the time the speach of jinnah, the dreams of the father of the nation. At last omar seem to have accepted that his speaches are as relevant and as practical as ice skiing lessons to the nomads of sahara. So he has coined another reason for pakistan to be a democratic country, just to be not the `worst night mare for the americans``.

The poor educated pakistanis are in a quandry, pakistan was created for the muslims of india, and the guiding priciples for ruling the country are in the book, the great man also was a ruler. The madate for the governance of pakistan is in the book, more than thousand years old, and now the pakistanis are pitting it against the speaches of a mere mortal with out success. Omar has found a new reason for pakistan to be a democratic, secular republic. All the best to you.

With no non-muslims in pakistan, democracy and secularism is an absurd luxury for pakistan, like air bags on a bullock cart.

full speed ahead, omar

jay

RE: spout

``First of all, take a deep breath, relax and put your dhoti down.``

Look who`s talking...``I stopped reading the NY Times``...``they treat Pakistan unfairly``...whine, whine, whine. Put your burka down.

``Secondly, I personally have never mentioned disdain for Jews in NY``

Only that Rabbis would tear down the doors of the NY Times. Yup, no disdain there. Go try that somewhere else, lady.

``I am in a university program that is run by Jews. I have yet to encounter any negativity towards Pakistan or Pakistanis from any of them.``

Hello? Earth to Spout. Did you not just spew some nonsense about how the Jewish-controlled media portrays Pakistan negatively because of some grand conspiracy about Palestine and what not.

``Why don`t you guys just chill?``

Oh we`re chilled alright...I don`t see any Indian crying about how the Western media protrays it viz-a-viz another country. If you take issue with how Pakistan is portrayed in the US, what the heck does that have to do with India? Give up your obsession and inferiority complex with India.

Omar

The following from jang shows anothert nightmare for those who employ pakistanis.

Pakistanis losing jobs in Britain due to `Islamomania`

By our correspondent

LAHORE: UK-based Prof Muhammad Anwar on Monday said the Pakistanis had been fast losing their employment in Britain because of `Islamomania`.

Speaking at a round-table conference on `Future of British Pakistanis`, organised by the Institute of Overseas Pakistanis (IOP) here, he said the Pakistanis spent time for ablution and prayers, during office hours, annoying their employers. Besides Pakistanis did not tend to assimilate British culture and traditions, he added. ``These factors are contributing to rising unemployment among the overseas Pakistanis and affecting their socio-economic position. Pakistan and Muslim identity was strong in England.``

r,

Re: scout

``ps: Please lose your autopilot anti-Pakistan agenda. You are a better person without it.``

Yeah, you too.

UzmaMarouf

You are really off on a tangent here. I mean way, way off.

I said ``India is the big guy on the block.``

Fact - It is. The *real *problem is that you like to equate your nation to India.

Take any parameter you want and the difference screams in your face. The idea is that Pakistan should give up these foolish ideas about ``boxing above the weight``. Its not going to happen. I realise that all of us sometimes like to try to play out of our league. And we lose. Nothing wrong with losing. Except the fact that smart folks know the difference between losing and being a loser.

And like I said, get over yourself. We couldnt care less what happened that side of the fence. You can go about all day playing Russian roulette with your politicians, your dictators and what not.

And while you at it, please stop behaving as if you chaps have copyrighted Islam. Its not like the prophet wrote the IPR in Pakistans name or something.

About your tirade on Hindus etc. I cant respond. I happen to be a Syrian Christian from the south. Apparently, you are barking up the wrong tree.

As for deciding about your fate, India isnt the one doing it. It happens to be some cheap tinpot military dictator in Islamabad. The sad part is you cant do anything about it, except parrot the ``PTV truths``. Good luck.

The Rediff Interview/Exiled Pak Poet Aftab Hussain

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/apr/03inter.htm

Pakistani poet Aftab Hussain was exiled from his country for publishing a collection of poems by Atal Bihari Vajpayee during the Indian prime minister`s bus trip to Lahore. The collection titled Jang Na Hone Denge was presented to Vajpayee at a ceremonial reception in Punjab by Hussain.

But the same book that brought Hussain his moment of glory, was to change the course of his life. A few months later, when Army Chief Pervez Musharraf overthrew former prime minister Nawaz Sharief in a military coup in October 1999, the ISI wanted Hussain to confess that the book was published at Sharief`s behest to please Vajpayee. The poet refused and had to flee to India.

A year after he crossed the border, Hussain has been denied asylum in India and stands very disillusioned. With no fixed address and perennially on the run, he agreed to meet Basharat Peer in an underground subway in Delhi.

What prompted you to publish the translation of Indian Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee`s poems in Pakistan?

The collection of Vajpayee`s poems Jang Na Hone Denge are from two of his books Meri Ekiyaavan Kavitaaeinand Qaidi Kavi Rai Ki Kundliyaan. Jamil Akhter, an Indian friend of mine translated these poems from Hindi to Urdu and asked me if I could publish them in Pakistan. I agreed. The collection of poems was still lying with me when Vajpayee was to come to Lahore by bus.

At that time there was festivity in Lahore. The people on the streets, the Pakistani media, almost everyone was talking about Indo-Pak friendship and how people wanted peace.

Publishing this book then was my little way of contributing towards cementing this friendship. It was the first time in Pakistan`s history that a book written by an Indian prime minister was being published there.

What kind of reactions did the publication of Jang Na Hone Denge draw?

Very positive. The then Information Minister of Pakistan Mushahid Hussain lauded its publication and asked me to present it to Vajpayeeji, which I did at the farewell ceremony held in his honour at the Lahore governor`s House on February 22, 1999. A Pakistani newspaper Daily Pakistan reported on Vajpayee the poet.

When did things go wrong?

Soon after the military regime took over. Various intelligence agencies started knocking at my door about my Indian connections and began asking details about the idea of the book. They even questioned my friends.

Around February 2000, they made me an offer: `Say that Nawaz Sharief asked you to do it and you lose nothing, or else face the consequences.` On my refusal (to do so), they ransacked my house in my absence. I was left with two options, either do as they say or leave Pakistan. My conscience did not allow me to say something that was not true so I left for India and reached here on March 16, 2000.

Where is your family?

I am a bachelor. My mother and two brothers are in Pakistan. They were tormented by the military regime and my friends would keep me informed about them. Now I have no idea where my mother and brothers are and in what condition. I miss them a lot.

You have not been staying in one particular house. Why?

I have been staying with different friends due to financial difficulties. I kept changing houses as I did not want those who are responsible for my plight to know about my whereabouts.

Why did you choose India?

I had to get out of Pakistan quickly. There were three options -- India, Iran and Dubai. Considering the nature of relations that Iran and Dubai have with Pakistan, I feared they might send me back. Further, India is a secular, democratic country and we share strong cultural and lingual ties, hence I decided to come to India.

How did the Indian government react?

Initially even Home Minister L K Advani said that if I apply for asylum `they will consider it.` And I did apply.

What happened after that?

I got no reply from the foreigners division of the home ministry. I was simply forgotten. Moreover, my visa for the first three months allowed me to remain in West Bengal, Orissa and New Delhi. On applying for a renewal, I requested that I be allowed to go to West Bengal, Orissa again and also to Aligarh and Lucknow. Instead I was frustrated because I was restricted to Delhi.

Did you approach the government for a work permit?

Yes, I approached the government for a work permit but all I got was dashed hopes. They just made me file applications and run from pillar to post for nothing.

I have no financial resources as such here but my Indian friends helped me a lot, they would privately get me some translation work so that I could survive.

Not only that, when I asked for permission to let me submit my doctoral thesis for evaluation to some Indian university, even that was not granted. All that the government officials would tell me is: `In your case the orders will come from the top brass.`

What happened to your application for a visa extension?

I had written again to the home minister and sent copies of my application to the President of India, prime minister, home and external affairs ministers. The response there was a deadly silence. I underwent severe mental agony due to this approach. One full year of my life has been wasted in these uncertain circumstances. I could not follow any creative pursuits.

And you were you trying for an asylum in India till recently?

Yes, I wrote to United Nations High Commission for Refugees asking them to interfere and help in deciding my case. UNHCR showed its concern and wrote to the external affairs ministry. It expressed its fears that could be deported and wanted my case to be transferred to it (UNHCR). Meanwhile, my visa had been extended for a month till March 30.

I also filed a petition with the National Human Rights Commission on February 22, 2000. On March 9, the NHRC issued a notice to the external affairs and home ministries, asking them for my case report within a week or else face action. The report was to come on March 16.

What happened next?

Instead, the home ministry informed me on the phone on March 14 that my asylum had been denied. They did not even give me any reasons. Further I was told: `You have sixteen more days. Leave India by March 30 -- the date your visa expires.`

I went to UNHCR again but they expressed their helplessness. As the Indian government had asked them keep off my case as it was ``politico-humanitarian.``

Did you approach any other countries for asylum?

Yes, I did. I asked a few countries to give me a visit visa but they refused because of the politically sensitive nature of my case. But they agreed to consider my case for asylum. The conditions for that were: I need to land on their soil or the UNHCR should recognise me as a refugee and recommend my case.

Did you approach the UNHCR again?

Yes, I did. I met the India chief of UNHCR, Augustine Mahige, on March 30. But even after lending me a patient ear, he said: ``We cannot even touch your case till the Government of India allows us to.`` I surrendered my passport to the UNHCR and informed the home ministry about it.

You got into trouble for publishing Vajpayee`s poems in Pakistan. Did you contact the PM for help?

After meeting the UNHCR chief, the very next day -- on March 31 -- I wrote a letter to Atalji. I wrote that since I had been denied asylum which implied that he did not want me on Indian soil, he should let the UNHCR take over the case so that they could arrange my passage to some other country that would grant me asylum.

Considering that Atalji himself is a poet I enclosed with my letter, a poem I wrote in these moments of distress. The poem is titled Khwaab Mehenge Padte Hain (Dreams come with a price) and gives a message to all those who dream of bridging various boundaries, shedding prejudices -- it tells them not to do this -- because they have to pay a terrible price for it. The way I did.

Did the poem arouse the poet in Vajpayee, the politician?

Partially. For, on Sunday, April 1, some officials from the ministry of home affairs contacted me saying that they had been instructed by the Prime Minister`s Office and my visa had been extended by two months.

What does it mean to you?

Almost nothing. What difference does it make? I have not been granted asylum or given a work permit. I have decided not go for it.

What do you really want from the Indian government now?

Let me leave India. That is all I want. The greatest favour India can do me now is: Let the UNHCR handle my case and arrange my passage to some other country that can grant me asylum. And give me a visa for the time the UNHCR takes in arranging my departure.

One year in India and a life spent in Pakistan, how do you compare the two?

I think people are the same on either side of the border. Indians are enlightened and secular. And the governments are also no different. The Indian government is only different from Pakistan`s autocracy because it is in the garb of democracy.

Aren`t you afraid of talking like this about the government while still in India?

You are only afraid when you either want a favour or fear losing something. I have lost almost everything and the only favour I want from the Indian government is to let me leave this country. I am not a criminal or a fugitive.

Why do you insist on comparing Pakistan with India? India is much more than a country, it is a civilisation; Pakistan is a country confused about whether it is a breakaway part of India / Indian civilisation or part of some grand Arabo-Islamic civilisation... You are better off comparing it with Libya or Sudan or whatever.

A couple of other points:

To expect NYT or any other American newspaper to be `objective` is dumb.

US public is least concerned about foreign policy, least of all US policy regarding South Asia.

Finally, if every paper outside Pakistan is not highlighting Indian `atrocities` in J&K, maybe the `atrocities` are not as severe as is made out to be by Pak media and govt.

Sorry to interrupt, just wanted to post this for the attention of sigalph235:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,3962925,00.html#top

``Lakhwant Singh Khalsa works for the Indian railway. On this, his first visit to Dhaka, the 40-year-old Sikh set out with a colleague to explore a little bit of the capital city.

As they walked across the Dhaka university campus at Ramna, Mr Khalsa stumbled upon a Gurudwara, or Sikh temple``

apologies again for the diversion.

regards

Harpreet

Re: tahmed321 Reply #: 22

Why is it so important to the author how we are viewed by the western press while the problems themselves are only mentioned in passing?

....

From what I have noticed about the sub-continentals, their predominant worry/phobia/fear/obsession is:

What will the people(especially the West) say/think?

While it is a good thing to care about other opinions it is not healthy to be obsessed by it. It smacks of a lack of self confidence.

In answer to :Reply #: 38

shima #39, ``Has it ever occur to you that there may be some truth to what these newspapers are saying?``

SURE but has it ever occured to you that countries such as Israel and India also commit atrocities which are ignored if not glossed over by the NY Times?

How do you answer that, tell me?

``instead of seeing the real problems you guys are worried about your image.``

Umm, hello? We do see the real problems, has the community ever let us forget? I don`t know where you`re coming from by saying this. I`m personally not as concerned with image as I`m concerned with fair media assessment.

On a side, I believe Indians are more image conscious than PAkistanis.

``Who gives a damn if you do not read NYP``

On the same note, who gives a damn if you don`t give a damn about me reading the NY Times? Your point is?

`` Hosh me aon, josh me bahekne se pehle. ``

Nice rhyme but I believe you should relax and not be so patronising.

Why are people getting so pissed off at my personal boycott against the NY TImes? It`s my prerogative.

You`d think they are the NYTimes marketing directors.

Buzz off :)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

The prejudice against Pakistan or overal muslims is not limited to NYT, WP or 60 minutes. Take any newspaper or TV, you would be blind not to realize it. Unfortunately as they say if you reiterate lies repeatedly it becomes truth, most people believe the news they read or watch. There are ten times more palestinians being killed, still they are called terrorists. Sharon, the grand daddy of terrorism (who started realm of terrorism with bombing of palestinian hotel in 54 and not to mention his prison camps from labanan war) is calling Arafat terrorist. Things won`t change until enough muslims join political and journalism system. Until then americans will only hear one side of the story and treat muslims as terrorist.

Scout has every right to boycott whatever newspaper she considers to be prejudiced. That is a time-honored, democratically cherished way of expressing strong disagreement. And if there is one thing we have all come to admire scout for, it is her strong views. More power to you, scout:)

For all those who harbor nostalgic memories of Old Delhi, and those who left India for Pakistan in 1947, but are unable to re-visit, I have posted a (not-too-well-written) account of a trip there in the Leafy Glade Inn, Article by Farzana Versey, article Empty Journeys, post #21

Mirza Sahib wrote:
``Until Pakistan becomes a functioning democracy, where the Pakistani people`s own Constitutional rights are respected (not expediently hedged), and State policies of condoning the actions of certain people who believe in violence are sidelined, it will remain `America`s Worst Nightmare.`

This is quite inaccurate. Historically, America
has sided wholeheartedly with the worst dictatorships in Pakistan. General Zia being the prime example.
What Pakistan lacks today is the ability to sell
its services and markets. If you want to get something positive in the American Press you should have something to market. Jihadis are
a terrible marketing tool especially since their transformation from being Mujahideen.
India appears to have plenty to sell at the moment and can do no wrong YET it is still
being ignored in general beyond Silicon Valley.
Indians in the US have developed economic clout but are still on the political/social periphery
in spite of their large numbers. And Pakistanis are not seen much beyond the Masjid scene which seems to take up most of their time.

Ras

Dear Omar Mirza:

Your statement: ``. . . Humankind has enshrined Freedom of Speech, Press, Religion, Association, Rule of law, Due process, Democracy, and Nondiscrimination on the basis of either gender or religious belief, as Universal Human Values. The denial of these rights, and the torture and imprisonment of political opponents by governments worldwide, is no longer acceptable State behavior.``

My reply: No longer acceptable State behavior! In whose eyes? What options are realistically available to the citizens if their fundamental civil and political rights are violated on a routine basis by the state apparatus apparently controlled either by a dictatorial or an elected regime? What if such a regime is supported by some of World`s leading democracies?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Re: macgupta # 33

I agree with your analysis of the situation vis-a-vis Sino-American relations.

Sino-American relations will worsen in the short to meduim term, because the Bush Administration does not have a foreign policy other than a revisionist cold war ideal. In this sense, as you have mentioned, Clinton`s foreign policy that was based on the logic of economic diplomacy helped to bring China and the United States closer in an economic sense. You are right: the present diplomatic tete à tete is more about the means than the end! This nothing more than a game leveraging influence in the region and mapping out the ground rules for a Sino-American ``mirror interests`` and how to manage their bi-lateral relations.

As to Pakistan and China and India relations, your arguments about China wishing to be stablizing influence in the CARs (Central Asian Republics) is right on the money. If China wants to confront United States in an Asian version of the cold war, it needs to mimimize political instability on its borders, which can seep into its domestic politics and cause internal instability for the government in Beijing.

The critical assumption to remember is that the Sino-Pakistan friendship is an all weather friendship and the forecasts of newly emerging Sino-Pakistan political weather patterns will be decided in Beijing and not Islamabad! The weather systems will flow in from China and it will gravely effect the political climate in Pakistan.

Ciao!

Here is another account of a boycott of a newspaper. It is relevant because an American might ask about the bias of the Pakistani media.

ABDULLAH MALIK is like that famous brew. He is into his eighty-first year and still going strong. Some time ago, he stopped reading newspapers, so one is not sure he will read this. ``That`s the best thing I did. I had reached a point where I could no longer read them, which is an odd thing for a life-long journalist to say,`` he explained.

What really got Abdullah Malik`s goat were Urdu columnists who along with gun-toting holy warriors determined to liquidate the infidels from the face of the earth, are now the only growth industry in Pakistan. He found what he read too enervating, too disturbing for his peace of mind and sense of well-being. So one day, he decided that enough was enough and, in any case, he had read more newspapers in a given year than most people do in a lifetime.

http://www.dawn.com/2001/04/02/op.htm#4

==

Not related to the topic at all, but here is an account of a Gurudwara in another capital at

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19873-2001Mar31.html

-Arun Gupta

I wonder what Pakis think of their little chapta buddies (erstwhile?) in commie China holding that American plane. I hope Bush strangles a few of them with a noodle.

Ref Daring #: 35

[But most Americans think of Pakis as better people than Indians. All the cow, smell and ugly women jokes are made towards Indians. I have read this on discussion forums. This one I go to, usually has some topics everyday as to how ugly Indian women are. Some people in there mention that Paki women and people look better than Indians.]

I am reminded of the story of a Pakistani who made it to the US, worked hard for a couple of years to save up enough money to visit his family in Pakistan, and landed in Karachi.

His family is of course very curious about America and everything American.

The dad asks, ``Well, son, what are Americans like?``

The American-returned Paki answers, ``Daddyji, Americans are very funny people. They call a fat man Slim. They call a bald-headed man Curly. And why, they know I have not been with my wife for almost two years and they call me a Fu * *ing Paki.``

Re: Dost-mittar #55

[I also discovered that Dhaka is named after a Hindu goddess, Dhakeshwri, to which an ancient temple is dedicated in Dhaka. But what I found even more interesting was that none of my muslim friends in Dhaka (of which I made many during my stay) knew about this origin of their city`s name.]

Well, no. It is actually the other way round. The name Dhakeshwari (literally - goddess of Dhaka) is derived from Dhaka.

firstslip,

#51

Americans are as human as anyone else. Its human nature to think of his/her own interests above everyone elses. Hence the famous saying ``looking out for number one``. Since the US is the sole superpower, her interests are extremely important to every other country. Right, wrong or indifferent, thats the way the world turns.

During the cold war, the Soviet Union was a counterbalance to ``American hegemony``. Every country (including China) tilted towards either the Soviet Union or the US, depending on that country`s interests--irrespective of that country`s domestic ideology. Pakistan was more ``aligned`` to the US/West in opposition to the Soviet Union. For that ``service``, the West, esp the US rewarded Pakistan handsomely with military & economic aid.

You criticise the US for making a darling of these oil rich Arab states. How do you account for Pakistan`s behaviour towards these states? The way Pakistan brown noses these countries is pathetic. For S.Arabia to intervene on the behalf of Nawaz Sharif was a gross interference into a sovereign nation`s internal affairs. However, no GoP has ever criticised Saudi ``hegemony``. Have they criticised these countries for not doing more for Pakistan`s peeve about Kashmir? Are the Palestians more ``important`` muslims than the Kashmiris? After the steadfast backing Pakistan has provided to the Palestinian cause; all that these Arabs have done is murmured polite empathy towards the Kashmiris. Then those besharams turn around & give India a wink & a nod. Heck of a way for ``friends`` to behave! Pakistan KNOWS this, but does`nt do a damn thing about it. Why?! Is it because they are the only cash cows left for Pakistan?!

Has Pakistan ever made a big stink about the way China has treated the Tibetans? When it comes to Kashmir, Pakistan plays this pious,honorable country that wants to stand on vaunted principles of human rights & freedom. Hey, thats great! But then apply those principles to every country that tramples human rights--including their own. Many Pakistani Chowksters like to quote AI as the basis of Indian atrocities in Kashmir. The ``spin`` here is that they conveniently de-emphasise what the AI says about Pakistan or China, for that matter.

I dont want to single out Pakistan as hypocritical. India is just as much an ``equal opportunity whore``, based on her interests. India has made a big stink about Tibet,like Kashmir is someone elses problem! India`s notion of non alignment was absolute hypocracy. They were aligned to the Soviet Union, pure & simple. India`s claim to be the world largest secular democracy is hypocracy--pure & simple. What amuses me is that India now wants to play the US & China against each other. All things considered, India, despite her size, is pretty much insignificant in world affairs. However, she acts like she`s a legend in her own mind. One false move & she`ll land up antagonising both China & the US. Lets see how these bania coyotes walk through this mine field.

The bottom line is that EVERY country acts according to her INTERESTS, not ideology. This hypocracy applies to every human being & country. The US press is singled out because the US is the biggest kid on the block. Throughout history, the strong have dominated the weak. The strong have justified that hegemony by believing that only they know what is ``right`` or ``just``. Is that fair? NO! But thats reality.

``Sh *t happens``!! We have no choice but accept it. Whining about it wont do a damn thing.

I am sickened with snobbish attitude of indians who think they or their country are so better. They try to be in league with other nuclear powers when most of their own people are living in the same slumps as in Pakistan, Sri Lanka or Bangladesh (P/S/B). Their literacy rate is at par with P/S/B. Their people and government are just as corrupt as in P/S/B. Do I need to remind everyone in recent arms deal scandal reaching to the top level military and political power. They are so proud of their tech industry, the fact is that most of their tech value is gone especially after a big scandal in their stock exchange. They are comparing themselves to other industrialized nations when they can`t even launch a freaking rocket. They want to join security council to become defenders of the world when millions of people are oppressed in their own country not to mention their human rights record in Kashmir.

Just making more babies don`t make you world power. I acknowledge indians are very capable people and so are people in P/S/B, but they need to address some basic needs before climbing up another ladder and they should loose infriority complex.

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Re: Shankar and macgupta

Folks, the way the Bush administration is handling its international relations, one aspect of its tenor is becoming increasingly clear.

This administration, unlike past republican governments, is not isolationist, but unilaterist in approach to international affairs.

If you look at its intentions vis-a-vis the national missile defense; Kyoto climate treaty; irking China; and generally acting outside the gambit of international relations, it is risking its own isolation. Granted that the United States, as a sole super power will act on its own interests, but it has to deal in way that does not anger other countries. If European Union goes ahead with the ratification of Kyoto, Washington will find itself isolated in its own traditional sphere of influence: Europe.

Already, Russia is angered by the American dominated NATO drive to move towards the Russian border and if United States continues with its arms sales to Taiwan, it seriously risks seeing a Sino-Russian entente against it in Asia.

India may harbor ideas about playing China against America, but India has to tread carefully if it wants to avoid irritating Russian interests. Russian and Chinese interests will take predominance over Indian aspirations, because both Moscow and Beijing want to be the next bi-polar powers in Asia with the express intention of containing American influence in the area. Both China and Russia may disagree with each other, but they will agree to the fact that American influence is not a good thing for their policies in Asia.

India will have to do a clever diplomatic balancing act and given the ``wild card`` of Pakistan, India cannot afford to let Pakistan emerge as a Chinese protége in a regional sense. Iran is tilting towards Russia (in defense related matters and in gaining nuclear technology from Russia) and if India is not careful, it will be identified as a nation ``running with the foxes while hunting with the hounds``.

India will have to pick a side and stick with it. This may be a fine game plan, given a BJP rule, but if Congress returns to power, it may redirect India towards a non-aligned status and that would seriously annoy the Americans, who have every intention of playing India against China. Hence, India has more to close than gain in this new Asian ``great game`` of the 21st century.

Like I mentioned in my article, The Asian Waltz, there is a new game in Asia and its rules are just emerging. It will be really interesting to see how this game develops and how the nations of Asia team in the process!

Ciao!

Ref png #: 67

[I am sickened with snobbish attitude of indians who think they or their country are so better. They try to be in league with other nuclear powers when most of their own people are living in the same slumps as in Pakistan, Sri Lanka or Bangladesh (P/S/B). Their literacy rate is at par with P/S/B.]

You are wrong here. The literacy rate in Sri Lanka is in excess of 89% whereas in India it is around 54%. Get your facts right.

The fact that Sri Lanka has a higher literacy rate doesn`t prevent them from being stupid in their treatment of their 20% minority Tamils.

Don`t attempt to compare that to the plight of Kashmiris. The Kashmiris constitute less than 1% of India`s population and will be squelched like cockroaches.

Ferozk :

Non-alignment has far too often (seemed to me) to be geared towards Indian leaders` need to play to a gallery and primp their egos rather than a means to advance India`s interests.

India does have opportunities opening up; but you are right that each opportunity brings with it the possibility of loss.

-Arun

As an aside, check out the following news

``Talibanisation of Americas.``

April 3, 2001

Web posted at: 3:23 PM EDT (1923 GMT)

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/04/03/hairless.fines/index.html

MACCLESFIELD, North Carolina (AP) -- Some clean-shaven guys could find themselves in a hairy situation in a couple of weeks. Beard-growing is now mandatory in Macclesfield, North Carolina. Any male without at least some stubble growing by April 15 will be subject to arrest and-or a 25 dollar fine.

Local officials enacted the beard ordinance to celebrate the town`s 100th birthday. Organizers say beard-growing is an old English tradition for special occasions.

But Gene Wallace says he`s ready to go to jail rather than risk his wife`s wrath. He says he grew a beard once, but she didn`t like it. Wallace notes that law or no-law, he still has to live with her.

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Dost-mittar #55 and Neptune #65

[I also discovered that Dhaka is named after a Hindu goddess, Dhakeshwri, to which an ancient temple is dedicated in Dhaka. But what I found even more interesting was that none of my muslim friends in Dhaka (of which I made many during my stay) knew about this origin of their city`s name.]

Well, no. It is actually the other way round. The name Dhakeshwari (literally - goddess of Dhaka) is derived from Dhaka



The name Dhaka is apprently derived from ``Dhaak`` trees which may have been in abundance at that time. There are many such names around:

eg.

Plassy: Palash

Champaran:Champa Aranya or Forest of Champa trees

Bakait

Harimau # 70

``The Kashmiris constitute less than 1% of India`s population and will be squelched like cockroaches.``

Are you for real?

``May the flies of a thousand camels reside in your armpits``

C. Klinger

Ferozk#69

``India will have to do a clever diplomatic balancing act and given the ``wild card`` of Pakistan, India cannot afford to let Pakistan emerge as a Chinese protége in a regional sense. Iran is tilting towards Russia (in defense related matters and in gaining nuclear technology from Russia) and if India is not careful, it will be identified as a nation ``running with the foxes while hunting with the hounds``.

``

Actually the situation is extremely complicated from Indian point of view. India does not want to go in the bad books of Russia as it is its main supplier of defence equipments. At the same time India, at this juncture can not afford to rile up Chinese. If Russia and China team up together to prevent US from making inroads into Asia, India would be in an unenviable situation. Given its economic and geopolitical interests, it would be inviting a big trouble if it antagonises Russia-China combine. China can cause India a lot of harm if they apply themselves to it, and in absence of Russia to fall back on in Asia, it would be a disaster inspite of American support. So India should keep itself away from this power game and at least not become a stooge of USA. India should strive to maximise her economic interests and lay low till it becomes an economic power to match Chinese(ie double its GDP from $480bn to a trillion(Chinese) ). But it requires some ingenuity to prosper without siding any party overtly. The useless rhetoric of non alignment will not work. India has everything to loose and little to gain in the kind of situation you hypothesize.

Ref binifer #: 78

[``The Kashmiris constitute less than 1% of India`s population and will be squelched like cockroaches.``

Are you for real?]

Yes, sweetheart, I am for real. I post in plain English home truths that Pakistanis, fervent believers in Islam, their fellow-travellers and hand-wringing Hindu apologists don`t like to hear.

[``May the flies of a thousand camels reside in your armpits``]

Would those flies have to be of Arab or Chinese origin or would sand flies of the Thar desert be acceptable to true-blue Pakistanis?

Re: arjun_m # 73

Just a point of clarification.

My reference to Bush`s revised cold war policies was meant in the sense that it seeks confrontation instead of consensus in forging international policies.

United States does not have to support Pakistan like it did during the cold war, because India has more strategic importance for it than Pakistan - in terms of trade.

I am against United States` support of Pakistan, because Pakistanis will blindly implement Washington`s bidding and when United States` interests change, Pakistanis will complain of being ignored by the United States. United States` alliance is the worst thing, which can happen to Pakistan and in my opinion, Pakistan will be far less worse off it tries to exist without United States` patronage.

An alliance with the United States is rational decision if that decision is taken within a realistic assesment of the prevailing geo-political situation. Pakistan has a very childish concept of foreign policy. It believes in giving absolute loyality and it accepts absolute loyality in return and that is a very flawed premise upon, which to decide foreign policy.

Therein lies the rub. Pakistan needs to come up with a rational foreign policy based on pragmatic realizations of its security considerations and not on emotionalism.

Pakistan is a very emotional nation prone knee jerk acts of myopia cursed with a unwillingness to admit to its past mistakes.

Hence, Pakistan continues to make make wrong decisions, because it never learns from its mistakes and simply compounds the problem endlessly.

Ciao!

RE: Haramiu # 70

[``The Kashmiris constitute less than 1% of India`s population and will be squelched like cockroaches.``]

Thats what your intolerant and bigoted religion teaches you... that humans are inherently unequal... made from brahma`s head, feet or arse... can be as high as the brahmins or can be sub-human cockroaches like muslims and shudras.

Like communism and stalinism, the civilised world must rid itself of this inhuman, unnatural religion; along with its bigoted followers if necessary.

re feorzk #69

My friend, the problem with your and Rockefeller`s brand of Republican foreign policy was that it was without principle and without power. Your liberal Republican foreign policy was based on nonsense do-gooderism that got America into the Cold War in the first place. You guys like Hatfield and Dan Coats were apologetic when Reagan asked the Commie s.o.b.s to get the h * * * out of Afghanistan, Poland and Nicaragua. You guys don`t believe it but the USSR or the Berlin Wall didn`t crumble from within. The Reagan Revolution brought them down. China and Russia today will have to be negotiated with principle not flaccidity. And if the pinlo French and the neo-Nazi Germans want to criticise the US, well what`s new? The only concern W ought to have is the national interest of the USA and the promotion of global freedom.

Feroz, I hate to break it to you, but the liberal Republicans lost in 1976 and the nazi Republicans in 1996; either you are an internationalist pro-business Republican or something from a different time.

Interesting article about India in Pakistani press :

http://www.newsline.com.pk/html/impressions.html

Sincerely,

Re: sigalph235 #: 85

I agree with your hypothesis that Reagan`s firmness pushed the Soviet state/communism to collapse, but the real reasons were economical and not political/military. The Soviets could not keep pace with the monies devoted by the United States on armaments. The Soviet Union collasped economically before it went belly up politically.

Yes, George W. Bush is pushing an American point of view and is only acting on those issues, which directly affect United States interest. I disagree with you that it is pushing for global freedoms across the board. In a realpolitik sense, United States` unilateralism may make a good congressional sound byte, but it makes for bad policy.

United States` foreign policy, since the end of the Second World War, in Europe has always revolved around the principle of consensus. It was the common European consensus that the Soviet Union was a threat to western Europe, a view advocated by Washington, that pushed for the creation of NATO and the European Coal And Steel Community - the parent organization of the European Union.

I will agree with you that Reagan was tough on the Soviet Union, but if you look at the deployment of the Pershing II missiles in western Europe, Reagan deployed those missiles after getting an ``ok`` from western Europe. Reagan`s ultimatum for the Soviets to get out of Afghanistan was facilated by Pakistan`s cooperation in the insurgency against the Soviets in Afghanistan. As to Nicargua, that was a complete failure, because depite all Reagan`s bluster, the Sandistas remined in power inspite of the United States` proxy war against them from bases in Hondurus.

In a bi-polar world of the cold war, United States-Soviet Union conflict was mirrored by their respective sphere of influences (east and west Europe). After the end of the cold war in November 1989 and the unification of the two Germanies in 1991, the bi-polar international diplomacy, which had dominated the world politics since 1945, was replaced by a multi-polar world. There are too many spheres of influence in the international relations at the present time.

The problem, for the United States, is that it wants to be a uni-polar power in a multi-polar world.

The United States, under Clinton, sought to sustain its influence via an economic diplomacy to take advantage of the process of international market globalization. That policy was also predicated on the building consensus. The Bush administration, on the other hand, is pushing United States into unilateralism.

I have nothing against that policy.

The United States is welcome to this policy, but it should be prepared for adverse reactions against it and should not think that world will gladly tolerate its selfish interests unconditionally and eternally. My friend, the United States cannot have its cake and eat it too!

To paraphrase Karl von Clusewitz, economics is the continuation of national security by other means in the present international context. Military might is proportional to a nation`s economic strenght and a nation`s political influence is the mixture of both its economics and military might.

China has learned this lesson and the United States seems to be forgetting its own historic experience in this regard.

My reference to Bush`s neo-cold war policies was to suggest that the Bush administration needs to follow the advice of Teddy Roosevelt- it should talk softly and carry a big stick, but sadly all it is doing is carrying a big stick!

How long can it sustain its confrontational policies?

Already there are misgivings in the board rooms of American business firms as to how this Sino-American EP- 3 Aires crisis will impact on American business interests in China? The United States did not have billions invested in the former Soviet Union, but it does in China! Is the United States willing to foresake its billions in China over some nostalgic cold war memory out of a John Wayne movie?

In your heart, do you really think that American business firms are willing to see their monies disappear so that Bush`s approval ratings go up in a CNN poll?

My friend, I supported Reagan and his policies and I supported Bush`s father`s stand against Iraq and I support the sanctions against that country (which I think need to be reconsidered).

Being a republican, I believe in the pledge of alligence. Still, I will not blindly follow a leader just because he/she happens to be a republican, because I feel that one needs to change with the times.

If the republicans do not change with the times and continue to stick with their policies of twenty years ago, they seriously risk stagnating politically and undermining their own chances in 2004.

I hope that you will take my advice and my advice to you my friend is not to get your panties in a knot and to think rationally and calmly on issues, which affect United States and try to avoid political knee jerk responses. :)

Ciao!

Sorry for the divergence

An unknown individual has struck in the name of freespeech. The Siqafat Organization Rutgers with which I was affiliated sometime ago was being run by people who believe in Censorship. Their message board apparently has been hacked, and proclaimed in the name of freespeech.

http://www.freedomofspeech.cjb.net

Pakistan Zindabad

To the halal butcher # 84

``Like communism and stalinism, the civilised world must rid itself of this inhuman, unnatural religion; along with its bigoted followers if necessary``

Nice for you to sum up the evil of Islam so succinctly and what we need to do to get rid of it. Starting with you. I volunteer to make a start on you. Get your cleaver ready.

How many Halal Muslim on Muslim murders took place last week butcher boy???

Chowk Staff,

How come my post to ``harimau`` wasn`t put up?

I didn`t even use any swear words.

You put his crap about Kashmiris up, but not my reply to him?

Pretty sad.

I dont fully disagree with the American vierw. I am Pakistani and have lived all my life except for five years in Pakistan. i have studied there and everytime i visit Pakistan I find it to be in a social, moral and economic decline. Please tell me one good that is there in Pakistan? One thing is a bit too difficult as there isnt any. We can romance with our country as that is all we have done in the last 50 years. We have lost track. We are intolerant people who consider themselves to be the most religious in the world as their women dont wear jeans. We are corrupt to the core and on all sides on a collapse of all values.

I fully agree with the point of view that the Americans have of us. we are to be blamed of it. We have to start writing about all the evil not try to defend it.

Bias.

While we are on the subject of bias, has anyone ever known Barbara Crossette of NYT to write an article that cast India in a positive light?

Just curious :)

Scout # 90

Try to mimick the good writing skills of Zahra; then Chowk wont throw your responses into the waste basket :)

Zahra: You rule.

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Re: arjun_m, #94

``The Chinese will get away with the EP-3 incident and threats to nuke LA. India got sanctioned for just testing nukes.``

Wonder why? What China is in American psyche, India will never be. China is in America`s core, India is in its periphery. For America, China and India are not the same and are not equal, and will never be.

re ferozk

The President of the United States expressed regret and said that our prayers are with the missing Chinese pilot`s family. If that`s not talking softly and humbly, what is?

I agree 100 per cent that collision with China must be avoided for business reasons. Not only is it the second biggest market but the potential, as the disposable income of the 1.2 bilion population goes up, is galactical. I have an interest in at least two companies which have half a billion invested in China between them. Definitely a no to any escalation.

But when you say,

``...and continue to stick with their policies of twenty years ago...``

that is just the invitation to conflict. The Cold War didn`t turn hot precisely because America was armed to the teeth and ready and willing to use the B-2. As Sir Winston said, the only sure guarantee of peace is to prepare for war. A strong America that is respected by the world is the first true guarantee of world peace. We discovered that 20 years ago and it worked. As the first Republican president said,

``What is conservatism but the keeping of the tried and tested as opposed to the untried and unknown``.

The minute China and the rogue states half way perceive a weakened American resolve, there will be havoc in the world. The world wasted 40 years on the Cold War thanks to pinko liberalism; never again!

By the way, as for the Pershing II missiles, the consensus you mention was pretty thin: the Iron Lady`s England, Helmut Kohl`s FRG by a thin margin, and Denmark I believe. And pinkos never stopped protesting the very things that saved them.

It may be a multipolar world now. But look deeply: philosophically it is fast becoming a world where the Anglo-American(please don`t tell me that the French are part of this) ideals of represenattive govt, free commerce, and individual liberty are ascendant. That ascendancy must be protected.

Re:Reply #: 84

``Thats what your intolerant and bigoted religion teaches you... that humans are inherently unequal... made from brahma`s head, feet or arse... can be as high as the brahmins or can be sub-human cockroaches like muslims and shudras``.

Ali1,

What is your problem? It is people like you who make me feel partition was the best thing that happened to India. You have a problem with Harimau, address it to him but for God`s sake do not bring in our religion. Since you are so biased and ignorant,it is useless to educate you about hindu religion. Who knows may be you came out of Brahma`s arse. That sure will explain everything about you.

sridhar

Re Siraj 91

Yes Pakistan does have a great deal wrong with it, but it is absurd to suggest that everything is wrong. The biggest problem is that the most are really uneducated. and the educated ``elite`` like it that way.

re women in jeans - If Pakistani women really want to fight for such things as the ``right`` to wear jeans (in that climate) - OK - let`s help them, but only if they fight their own fight not if it is to conform to some western notion of how they should dress, look, or feel. The wole world eating Mcdonalds and wearing levi`s, Hmmm - I`m sure more than a few people would take exception to such an eventuality.

Actually, self-realization, in a public sense of the word, for Pakistani women will be increasing difficult without the creation of truely vibrant economy and universal education and two years of universal national service after graduation from High school or college, in Pakistan.

Keep your faith in the essential goodness of ordinary Pakistanis, they will yet redeem that faith.

siraj91

It will be unfair to ignore at least these two: Dr. Abdus Salam (sp?) and Maulana Edhi (sp?).

Besides, reading some people on Chowk, I would not lose hope. In particular, I am impressed with Pakistani women here: they are articulate, opiniated, cultured, and very intelligent. There is no reason why a country blessed with such people can not overcome any challenge.

Regards

Eklavya,

This is in response to your excellent post on the Aisha Sarwari Board.

Pakistan needs to follow the excellent example set by Qaid-e-Azam.

In Dec 1947 Qaid resigned as the League president saying that ``As Governor General I cannot continue to hold the highest office in a self avowedly communal organization``. (Ayesha Jalal, Constructing a state, State of Martial Rule)

Pakistan should be a Non Communal Impartial Democracy!

-YLH

PS The Yale University Conference starts tommorow ... star attractions ..

Mohandas Gandhi`s Grandson : Raj Mohan Gandhi

Shahid Javed Burki, and a representative of the All parties Hurriyet conference..and myself, I am on the Declaration Writing commitee and also will sign it too.

Hope to see you all there!

:)

ali1 #84

PAKISTANI CASTE

You keep refering to the csate system, which is essentially the dis/advantage with birth. On the chowk I have noticed many claiming to be decendents of the man himself, at the drop of a slur they are willing to stste their `great` pedigree. I understand that in pakistan, all have an identity card, that along with the address, also gives the family datails..etc.

At least prima facie it appears that pakistanis are more concerned with family linkages and connections than the indians. A recent report talks of all menial jobs being reserved for non-muslims in karachi. Just asking, is it possible that pakistan is most `caste` ridden than india.

regards

jay

harimau, ali1,

What Chowk/subcontinent/world needs is to have the two of you squelched like cockroaches. Its bigots like you that are mainly responsible for the sad state of affairs in the subcontinent.

Its bad enough that you bigots spread hatred in this world. What is sickening is that all you do is thump your chests & conveniently let others die for your causes; while you cowards are safe in the sanctuary of America. If you guys feel so strongly about your respectve religions & Kashmir--do the world a favor & go to Kashmir & die for what you believe in.

I`m a hand wringing, moderate Islamic tree hugging hindu apologist---& proud of it.

ylh #100

Amen. And best wishes for Yale. Go and impress pants off those folks. :)

http://www.india-today.com/itoday/20010409/benazir.shtml

Exile and Benazir Bhutto are no strangers to each other. Prime minister of Pakistan for two terms, she has also been forced out of Pakistan on two different occasions. First by General Zia-ul-Haq after her father Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto`s execution in 1979, and again since 1998, after her rivalry with former prime minister Nawaz Sharif assumed epic proportions. Sharif himself is today in exile but the military government of General Pervez Musharraf shows no desire to have her return home to Clifton in Karachi.

With husband Asif Zardari languishing in jail on corruption charges, the 49-year-old Benazir shuttles between Dubai

and London. Dubai is where her two children go to school and where she spends time with her ailing mother Nusrat.

But London is where she gets active politically, fulfilling her responsibilities as chairperson of the Pakistan People`s Party (PPP) by telephone and e-mail. In an interview to Aaj Tak, she spoke to INDIA TODAY Editor Prabhu Chawla at her sister Samna`s spacious third floor flat in Queensgate, Kensington.

Q. Do you think you can dethrone Pervez Musharraf?

A. Many generals came and were dethroned-Yahya Khan, Zia-ul-Haq, Ayub Khan. Today Musharraf saheb is in power. But ultimately Pakistan as envisioned by Mohammed Ali Jinnah will succeed, which is a democratic Pakistan, a Pakistan in which the poor will be treated with respect.

Q. From its very birth, democracy in Pakistan has suffered. Why? Do politicians there have no credibility?

A. Is it a question of credibility or of a consensus which did not evolve? In India there are serious differences among political leaders but all the groups agree that India should have democracy, an independent election commission, free judiciary and a free press. It is the opposite in Pakistan. For example, when my government was removed undemocratically, no one raised a voice to say the President should not have such powers.

Q. There have been two types of regimes there. One elected, the other comprising the ISI and the army establishment. Is this true?

A. Yes, we have two regimes. One which is visible and the other which is not. This has caused much damage to our country because the political interests of the invisible regime have been opposed to those of the people. This is also why Pakistan broke up. Now it is being said there should be a legal structure for these invisible forces so that they act within the law.

Q. This seems impossible. Nawaz Sharif who had a two-thirds majority and tried to control this invisible regime was dismissed.

A. This is one perception. The other perception is that Sharif was himself the product of the invisible regime. So the majority which he had was not of the people. If a group of democratic parties gets a majority then I think changes can be brought in the structure so that there is a revolution in the country.

Q. Do you think the gun overrules the vote in Pakistan?

A. It has been so until now. But we are fighting to strengthen the politics of vote. This is not easy but if one has conviction and commitment, as the PPP and its supporters have for democracy, then one has to fight.

Q. In the type of jehad being practised there, arms are being used in the name of religion.

A. Religious groups have been given a free hand there. And after the Afghan jehad, a new jehad has started. When I say jehad I mean a political movement. In the Islamic world there are some groups which say that they have to resort to arms to rule over the world. There also are those who say that the meaning of Musalman is you to your own religion and I to my own.

Q. What do you believe in?

A. I believe that Islam is a call for peace, for tolerance.

Q. Do you support border intrusions in the name of Islam?

A. The Kashmir movement is of two types. One is a political movement, which is under the All Party Hurriyat Conference. We support them. The other is of Lashkar-e-Toiba and armed groups. We oppose them.

Q. Do you think that there is any solution to the Kashmir issue in the light of what is going on there?

A. No solution has come up in the past 50 years and it will not come up in the next 50 years if the people of India, Pakistan and Kashmir follow the path they have followed till now. Both countries have their own perceptions. Pakistan says the right to self-determination should be given.

Q. To whom?

A. To the people of Kashmir.

Q. Which Kashmir? Both of them?

A. Pakistan`s intention is that one Kashmir should be given this right. But if you people exert pressure then both Kashmirs can be included.

Q. Do you agree that both Kashmirs should vote on whether they want to live with India or Pakistan?

A. If India proposes this Pakistan will definitely agree.

Q. But the Simla Agreement ...

A. I think you people are not ready for this.

Q. In the Simla Agreement it was decided that we should respect the LOC.

A. It`s the Indian interpretation. Pakistan`s view is that it will be resolved bilaterally. If it fails we will go to the UN.

Q. What do you think of Vajpayee`s peace initiatives?

A. After Rajiv, Vajpayee is the first leader with farsightedness. He has taken some courageous steps. Pakistan is missing out on this window of opportunity.

Q. The UN is not going to interfere in this issue. Can there be an agreement on the LOC?

A. I think India wants the LOC to be made the international border. But Pakistan wants to politically support insurgency so that a referendum is carried out there. There can be no agreement between these opposing views. We should acknowledge there are differing viewpoints. One should undertake confidence building for that.

Q. This has been tried so many times-the Simla Agreement, Atal Bihari Vajpayee`s bus journey, your talks with Rajiv Gandhi, the contents of which are still secret.

A. We talked about Siachen and East Punjab. At that time East Punjab was a big problem for your people.

Q. It is the perception in India that you people were supporting, arming and financing them.

A. There is a perception that you people were doing the same in Karachi. Maybe we were doing that but we should now talk about our differences. We should build confidence for an open border. Then the new generation will distance itself from bloodshed and hatred.

Q. Vajpayee went by bus but what did he get? Kargil, guns ... A. It was wrong. But he was dealing with an undemocratic leadership.

Q. But it was an elected leadership.

A. How? Farooque Leghari established a biased regime and said, ``I will not allow Benazir to come back.`` We felt the 1997 election was a farce and boycotted it. Only 16 per cent of the electorate voted. The Election Commission of Pakistan claimed that 50 per cent had voted. All your newspapers rightly said that 16 per cent voted.

Q. It seems that votes are polled somewhere else in your country.

A. Yes. There are all sorts of rigging. So there was an insecure leadership. It wanted to please India, please the world, please the army. In Lahore, Vajpayee was being felicitated and the army was being told to take positions. General Musharraf said recently he would go anywhere and talk to India. I think if a military ruler says he is ready to talk then you must understand that our people want peace.

Q. You seem to have a lot of faith in General Musharraf.

A. I have differences with him. He has said that he will use the army against me and will stop me.

Q. When you were dismissed the first time, you said Osama bin Laden had been behind the move and that he had spent money.

A. In 1989, there was a no-confidence vote against me. Bin Laden gave $10 million to remove me. During Zia-ul-Haq`s rule the Afghan jehad had started in Pakistan. Madarsas were established and the children of the poor were recruited and promised clothes, etc.

Q. Were you against that?

A. Certainly. Members of the PPP are not allowed to take up arms. Then why should the mullahs be permitted to do so? This dual law goes against the Constitution.

Q. But did you compromise so that continuity was ensured?

A. Certainly. I did try.

Ref headshrinker #: 102

[Its bad enough that you bigots spread hatred in this world.]

I spread history, not hatred. How come not one you self-serving pathetic idiots have been able to refute one solitary single historical fact I have posted?

[What is sickening is that all you do is thump your chests & conveniently let others die for your causes;]

My cause is that people should learn the true history of Islam. How does such an academic exercise cause deaths?

[I`m a hand wringing, moderate Islamic tree hugging hindu apologist---& proud of it.]

You are a cretin with single central incisor syndrome. If you are a doctor as you have claimed to be, you would know what that means. Last time, it went over your head.

Wow, harimau is wiping the board clean with Pakistani behinds.

I think I`d like to refocus this discussion on the bias of the American press in reporting events with a current concrete example of what I`m talking about on reporting from the subcontinent folks, from the Washington Post today.

* * *A.B. Vajpayee has broken his promise to allow the APHC to visit Pakistan, why then is this NOT mentioned in this `objective` report ? In fact this `iniative` of Vajpayee`s is really a step backwards from his earlier promise, but note that it is being POSITIVELY reported rather than negatively, w/o any mention of the previous promise, on which India has clearly reneged, because it was never serious to begin with.

--OMAR Mirza

India Rebuffed on Proposal for Kashmir Talks _____Special Report_____

• Kashmir on the Brink

Associated Press

Friday, April 6, 2001; Page A29 NEW DELHI, April 5 -- India offered today to hold peace talks with Kashmiri separatists living abroad as well as those in the disputed Himalayan region. The offer was immediately rebuffed by the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, a key umbrella organization of political and religious groups in Kashmir, which demanded that the Pakistani government should be part of a tripartite dialogue.The government`s invitation to separatist and political groups living in India and abroad came four months after Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee ordered a temporary cease-fire against Islamic guerrillas fighting for Kashmir`s independence or unification with Pakistan. The statement offered no hope, however, of immediate negotiations with Pakistan, which has fought two wars with India over control of Kashmir since gaining independence from Britain in 1947. India accuses Pakistan of training and arming Islamic separatists who have been fighting since 1989 against Indian rule in the state of Jammu and Kashmir, India`s only state with a Muslim majority. Pakistan, an overwhelmingly Islamic nation, says it provides only moral and diplomatic support to the rebels.Today`s statement did not say when the dialogue would begin or with whom.``The government decided to embark upon a political dialogue with all sections of the peace-loving people of the state, including those who currently live outside it,`` the statement said. ``It is expected that . . . all political parties, nongovernment organizations, trade unions, social and religious bodies from all the regions of the state will participate.``Abdul Ghani Bhatt, a spokesman for the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, demanded that the Indian government allow a delegation of the group`s leaders to visit Pakistan to discuss the Indian offer with the Pakistani government and key militant groups there.

© 2001 The Washington Post Company

Getting back to the relevant topic......

The American media is a commercial enterprise and as such it has to tailor its commentary to the tastes and preferences of its audience and more importantly to its revenue generating advertisers. You can hardly expect the NY Times to be sympathetic to the Palestinian cause wheras Israeli deaths are mourned on the front page.
( Even the liberal chowk has its own biases..it hardly treads on controversial political issues - after all `` self-prservation`` instinct needs to be there, Although we have seen several anti-religion articles, with the exception of a current article, one hardly finds a balanced approach on religion)



Secondly the US Media is fairly mature when it comes to reporting US interests - such as the sanitized precision bombings in Nicaragua and Iraq.

Then there are the facts - Pakistan is a very intolerant society - Govt sponsored pogoms have
caused genocide in E. Pakistan, military campaigns in Baluchistan , Sind and Karachi.
BY western Standards, it is a primitive life form that cannabalizes its own future. (a careful look
of the posters on this forum alone, where the creme` of the Pakistani bourgouis, some deeply engendered with western sensibilities, seeks to enforce its liberal agenda with the same fascist overtones, that the conservatives practice in the mother country.)

Thirdly Pakistan is a country where pleuralistic thought is non existent, and that extends to many of the posters on this forum.

Then there is the Islamic bogey fanned by the defense establishments of the West in search of a
visible new enemy - that justifies MY TAXPAYER dollars going into playtoys and secretive budgets.

Of course they are ably assisted by ex-PrimeMinisters and other political leaders of
Pakistan, who fan the same rhetoric on the lecture circuit in order to secure support
for their own agendas. Foreign ministers extolling the use of the nuclear option, like Gauhar ayub, and his equally
moronic successor Sardar Assef....





In addition, Pakistanis are known for their fiery rhetoric, - and no tangible results, The Mullah`s extoll the vices of western commercialism and the then jump on the asylum bandwagon to get to the US ....

Also Pakistan is a nation with NO COLLECTIVE MORALITY - that rings true of all of us here,
When the ILO imposed sanctions on Pakistan for
not enforcing child labor laws, - the govt and the media jumped on the India`s problems with CHILD labor... You MORONS foreign countries are more concerned about your women and children than you are .........

Finally why do Pakistanis care so much about INdia, grow up and do your own thing. The comparision between INdia and Pakistan is a ridiculous one, particularly in this article..

Pakistan is NOT ``AMERICA`s worst nightmare``
- US concerns are limited to the nuclear trigger
in the hands of jackasses and rightly so....

As of now Pakistan is A ``Pakistani`s`` worst nightmare - and that what most pakistanis should be concerned about.... NOT a perception of a foreign entity but the reality on GROUND ZERO.


Its time for Pakistanis to move on beyond the INdian bogey .... and the same goes for the Indian miscreants - go figure out your own problems ( which are substantial) rather than ranting and raving like lunatics....

Re: RSaxena, #106

``harimau is wiping the board clean with Pakistani behinds.``

You mean that he is cleaning the Pakistani behinds (otherwise your sentence does not make any sense). Pakistanis sure can use him for that purpose! They are tired of doing it themselves and would not mind using his services.

Ref OMAR1974 #: 107

[India offered today to hold peace talks with Kashmiri separatists living abroad as well as those in the disputed Himalayan region. The offer was immediately rebuffed by the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, a key umbrella organization of political and religious groups in Kashmir, which demanded that the Pakistani government should be part of a tripartite dialogue.]

So, why don`t you ask if the APHC has the Kashmiris` interests at heart or is it taking instructions from the Pak Foreign Ministry and the ISI?

If the Kashmiris want independence (from India as well as Pakistan, as Umairr is fond of saying), what do these bearded creeps want with the Pak government?

Re Syed Ahmad #108

Excellent!

Re: Reply #: 108

Syed Ahmed,

That was a very balanced analysis. What you said about Pakistan can be said of India too. So let us all get down from our high horses and look at what we really are and not bother about what Americans think about us. I sometimes admire the Chinese. Look at them. They are now telling the Americans to apologise about the airspace violation and have not budged one inch from their earlier statement. That needs a lot of guts. They are behaving as a true world power. Hard to imagine what India`s response would be in similar circumstances.

To all folks from either side of the divide,this is what i have to say:

Let us stop accusing each other and become voices of reason and do our bit to usher in stability and peace in the subcontinent. West, for all its vices, has found a way to coexist peacefully. Enemies of yesterday like France,U.K and Germany are part of a European Union. Canada exists peacefully with USA and both have prospered. What is wrong with our cursed lands? Religions are meant to bring people together and not make them into enemies. We have become victims of our own prejudices and mindset. If we have to progress and prosper,we need to shed our prejudices and change our mindset which always compels us to defend something that we know in our heart is indefensible.

sridhar

Chowk Staff,

So you decided to still not post my other interact to harimau while repeatedly posting his and ali`s crap.

Thanks for the hypocricy.

Chowkwallas,

It was good while it lasted. Whatever is afflicting Pakistan and India is well deserved with people like ali, harimau, and rsaxena running around.

I`ve had it with bigotry.

Khuda Hafiz

Syed Ahmed #: 108

These are all nice warm and fuzzy feelings. Forget it! my man that the two sides will reach a peaceful situation. Indian / Pakistani educated elite are mo%

Harimau # 110

``If the Kashmiris want independence (from India as well as Pakistan, as Umairr is fond of saying), what do these bearded creeps want with the Pak government?``

These bearded creeps are equal opportunity pimps. They made prostitutes out of Bharati masses just for the pleasure of Indian Generals. Now they want to provide Pakistani Generals an opportunity to fu$%k Pakistan. What`s wrong with that? You think only Indian Generals can rape their nation? Pakistani Generals have the same desires.

Kapeesh? Or some Indian general is having fun with you or your folks still living in the Indian hell. Off course it is all in the name of national security.

Disclaimer: Indian Generals (and their Pakistani counter parts) do not rape or plunder their masses. They strongly believe in importing [or transferring] European technology, and exporting their black money to European Banks.

Gurv say kaho hum Bharati hain.

We all need to take pride in true and pure Bharati culture and not in some westernized, corrupt INDIAN culture.

Re: sigalph

Sorry for the dealy in replying to your post!


Bush saying that he regreted the Chinese pilot`s death was good sign that he was understanding the diplomacy of ``saving face``, which is the hallmark of Chinese foreign affairs.


Sig, the current tete a tete is nothing more than Freudian attempt to determine who is the ``big boy`` in Asia. Hence, both sides need to carefully reconsider the consequenes and decide upon their actions accordingly. Bush`s foreign policy team is too ``experince heavy`` and though it may sound impressive, in realistic terms it designed for gridlock, because all the actors have their own opinions and turf wars to fight. Rice, Powell, Rumsfield and Chenny (sounds like a law firm) are still in the process of mapping out their influence in the White House.


My friend remember, foreign policy works best when determination, strenght and clarity is mixed with a pragmatic sense of compromise. There are no principles in international relations despite what Woodrow Wilson`s best intentions. In this sense, I was, and still am, a great admirer of G. W. Bush`s father`s foreign policy!


Ciao!

[reposted]

Syed Ahmed #: 108

These are all nice warm and fuzzy feelings. Forget it! my man that the two sides will reach a peaceful situation. Indian / Pakistani educated elite are mo$Fuc$#r decedents of Maharajas and Sultans. They have no concept of saving their a$$es. They will happily choke on skyrocketing-taxes; corrupt bureaucrats and raping & murderous Generals. Rajas took all the money from the masses and spent on either Fu@k!ng themselves or their neighbors.

Now the army generals of the two countries are doing the same. We all walk to the house of Generals and get the ``desired`` satisfaction.

The pseudo intellectuals will continue blabbering about their favorite ones and trashing anyone who opposes them. They are ready to jump on RSS, Talibans, Pundits and Mullahs. You said it right in your post:

``The crème` of the bourgeois, deeply engendered with western sensibilities, seeks to enforce its liberal agenda with the same fascist overtones, that the conservatives practice in the mother country.``

So dream on my friend and let Harimau and Urstruly trash and whip every chowki`s behind.

Scout #113

Don`t worry.

I am on same boat.

The need of hour is amity between Pakistan and India.

Whether Harimau cleans the board with dumb Pakistani`s back does not matter now.

So what?

Universe is bigger than world.

And world is bigger than Chowk.

At least in my case.

RE: Scout`s khuda hafiz

Whatever ``crap`` chowk editors want to publish is their prerogative and if you want to boycott Chowk like you boycotted NYT, well thats your right.... but your gila-shikwa comes across as pretty childish.

Anyways, I regret if any of my ``crap`` offended you, that was never the intention, and I don`t recall ever attacking your personally.

You have put me in the same category as haramiu which I find very offensive... feel free to write a note of apology to sherali_rajput@yahoo.com Khuda Hafiz. :-)

Many wonder why pakistan is a nightmare. Police was found stealing electricity from a govt owned power supplier by the military. From dawn of today

MULTAN, April 7: Policemen were found stealing electricity at a police post in Gujrat Town by a joint team of army and Mepco staff. The team, headed by a sub-divisional officer of Mepco, disconnected the power supply to the police post.

``SDO Qazi Muhammad Akhtar told Dawn here on Saturday that police had taken direct supply from the main line. They did not apply for getting the power connection for the police post. Mepco subordinate staff had asked the policemen to desist from such unlawful act who threatened them with dire consequence. SP Col Farman Ali (retired) said that stern action will be taken against the responsible persons.``

Scoutapa # 113

``Chowkwallas,

It was good while it lasted. Whatever is afflicting Pakistan and India is well deserved with people like ali, harimau, and rsaxena running around.

I`ve had it with bigotry.

Khuda Hafiz``

Nononoo0000oo000oo0000ooooooo....like if you go away whooz going to put that annoying Rsaxena in his place everytime he gets high on himself? or give horrible mean self righteous men like harimau the verbal spankings they deserve...who`ll speak up for Pakistan in the face of 480 interactors who`ve made it their zindagee ka mission to demoralise us by quoting selected incidents that we really have no defence against....its difficult to compose a reply when one knows in another 25 mins there`ll be Indies all over the board taking turns at laughing, byching and patronizingly telling you what a miserable nation yours is beacause some morons attacked a newspaperoffice&because the army keeps sending the elected leaders back to their cribs ..the anger and helplessness of it all often makes me refrain from replying at all..it takes spunk aison kae moon lagna specially since many of the evils quoted are as true as is true..

pliss istay

Scout #113

``Whatever is afflicting Pakistan and India is well deserved with people like ali, harimau, and rsaxena running around.

``

Hey you misssed the BOSS OF ALL, Mahamullah Urstruly. Add my name to this list too if you so desire.

Iran`s advice to India and Pakistan.

http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=4/8/01&Cat=4&Num=030

Tehran Times

Vajpayee`s Visit to Iran Will Bring Peace, Stability to Region, Analysts Believe

By Irfan Parviz

TEHRAN Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee will make a historic visit to Iran on April 10 at the invitation of President Seyed Mohammad Khatami.

Political pundits believe that Vajpayee`s visit will pave the way for better Tehran-New Delhi relations in all known areas of cooperation.

Iran`s prominent journalist Hassan Rassouli voiced his optimism about the outcome of Vajpayee`s visit, saying, ``It (the visit) will herald a new era in Indo-Iranian ties in political, economic and social areas.``

The TEHRAN TIMES Editorial Board Coordinator, Rassouli, added, ``Mr. Vajpayee`s visit will cultivate a healthy political and economic atmosphere in the region based on mutual understanding.``

Talking to the TEHRAN TIMES, an analyst Ms. Tahera Sultan said, ``Iran and India have an ancient history of bilateral relations in political, social, cultural and economic areas.

``There is no doubt that Iran and India, through bilateral or multilateral cooperation, can bring peace, stability and prosperity to the entire region,`` she stressed.

Referring to a gas pipeline project that is expected to transfer Iranian gas to India via Pakistan, she noted, ``It will not only provide the cheapest and cleanest source of energy to the regional countries, but it will also serve as a major source of national income.``

She brushed aside the doubt cast over the future of the pipeline by some who describe it as risky, and who argue that Pakistan and India are archenemies.

Like Ms. Sultan, Rassouli also believes that the gas pipeline will help to bring India and Pakistan, the so-called ``archenemies``, closer together.

``I don`t believe that India and Pakistan are archenemies, as both have a lot to exchange in terms of economy, politics and culture, but not bullets,`` Rassouli noted.

``If both India and Pakistan prioritize their national interests, the sky will be the limit to their cooperation and progress,`` he pointed out.

However, contrary to the Iranian analysts` belief, a Pakistani Urdu daily * * * * Nawa-e Waqt * * * * voiced its concern over growing relations between Iran and India.

The daily, in its editorial, said that the defense agreement between Iran and Pakistan`s enemy, India, is a major source of concern for all the Muslims. The daily asked the country`s Foreign Ministry to take the necessary action in this respect.

A high level Indian business delegation is to accompany the indian Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee`s visit to Iran which starts from April 10.

Secretary general of the Federation of indian Chambers of Commerce and Industry (FICCI) Dr. Amit Mitra told IRNA today that india is looking to expand its relations with Iran beyond the oil and gas sector.

The FICCI business delegation to Iran will comprise industrialists from various sectors like heavy engineering, construction, power, cement, telecommunication and information technology (IT), entertainment and film, healthcare and tobacco, automobile, chemicals and pharmaceuticals, biotechnology, chartered accountants and company law, ports and infrastructure, Mitra said.

Scout,

May I add my voice to that of anNy # 121.

Like darkness, bigotry has its charms, and most of us fall for it from time to time. Some of it is, as Farzana would say, Garam Khoon, some mere silliness, but the rest is the uncomfortable reality that must be confronted if we are to become a better people. Won`t you have it expressed upfront than hidden away under a heavy rug?

You have been a pleasure to read. Please stay.

anNY #121,

I have used the following simple trick to deal with the same problem [ofcourse, my problems mostly arise when reading folks on `your side` :)].

After I read a couple of posting from an individual, I get a broad picture of the intellectual calibre and make-up of a person. I ask: (1) Is this person raising real issues relevant to modern living, or is he (she) merely fighting ghosts residing in his/her mind? (2) Is he (she) proposing modern solutions to these issues, or merely repeating stuff that has failed to work for thousands of years? Having done that, I decide whom to read very carefully, whose words to merely skim through, and whose posts to not bother reading at all beyond a couple of lines. There are some people with whom I mostly have strong disagreements with but read because they are Indians, and for me, it is important to know what Indians think.

Ofcourse, people can move from category to category :) But this simple approach has brought me PARTLIAL success in not wasting my time and emotional energy on Chowk. Ofcourse, if you do not find ANY thing to agree with ANYone on the `enemy side,` then you might want to question your own stand on some of the issues!

Happy reading :)

Scout,

you are significant on chowk, a muslim female on indo=pak bashing is an asset to both sides. If at all there is going to be a bridge across the trenches, it will be built by simple people like you, not the ones with sofistry and verbosity.

After the frontier post burning chowk has changed the censorship policy, it is looking more into the contents, its provocative nature than specific abusive words or personal insults.

There is no need to take chowk so seriously, nor yourself as so important, it is just innocous fun, a cyberspace paki bashing from the UK of the seventies. Islam has survived so many centuries with out you, so will pakistan, but one less pakistani, is one less to bash and we miss it.

regards and best wishes.

Jay.

scout, if you are reading this, here`s a NYT article you should look over. Would you agree this is as Pro-Pakistan an article as there can be give the circumstances?

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/09/world/09AFGH.html

IMO, biases mostly exist at the individual level. At the institutional level, the best Western newspapers all make at least some effort to be objective.

As far as I know, Barbara Crossette has never in her life written anything positive on India (except in her travel books - she also writes poor quality travel books). I have learnt to simply ignore her. Afterall, it takes all kinds to make this world of ours, right? :)

Scout!

I havent been following this thread and I didnt know what was going on here. Please do not lose heart. There are some good people on Chowk who really enjoy interacting with you and for me it is always a pleasure to see your posts. You are one of the very few voices of integrity, pragmatism, and passion; all combined in one. Chowk is sanner only because of few people like you. I request you to change your mind and be our friend again.

Chowk Staff:

Ki ho rahaya eh bhai? tusi kurri naraz kar ditti haygee.

friends, thanks for the kind words, email me if you`d like, jannat_bibi@yahoo.com

wow!!

scout, you must be the only person on Chowk who has won the respect of people with ALL shades of opinion, Hindu-Muslim, Indian-Pakistani, young-and not-so-young, `hand-wringing Hindu apologists` and `Jihadi warriors!`

Hats off to you, lady! :)

Jay # 125 in reply to Scout # 113

``Islam has survived so many centuries with out you, so will Pakistan, but one less Pakistani, is

one less to bash and we miss it.``

Eklavya # 124

Sir it is patronizing men like Mr. Jay up there that make me bang the keys on my keyboard so hard the entire table starts shaking...unlike you I cant get myself to ignore or skim posts by annoying men and women like him… it is then that I waste precious energy fuming; ranting and raving about obnoxious Indians who are in as much mud as we are but due to an incredible public relation campaign, propaganda (call it what you like) are now acting like they own the world…at this age wasting precious energy on a discussion board comes very naturally to me:) but you are right…bigotry has its charms and I fall victim to it very many times myself…it comes from the conditioning of many years to hate all things Indians….this is something I had written on the sad shia sunni divide in my part of the world (2 main muslim sects)just a few days ago and which applies.

``…I don’t grudge them this unfair bias because they like millions of others have been fed a staple diet that results in such strong negativity; they cannot under any circumstances be blamed for it. In my more honest moments I compare this unreasonable utterly stupid bias to mine against all things Indian. Since I have been a child a feeling of venomous hatred for all Indians plagues the inner recesses of my soul. Now that I am an adult and interact with some Indian nationals who are good people in the truest sense of the word I try to put it to a side but am not able to do so for even a few minutes. It is a handicap. Very few are able to rise above it but for every individual that falls victim to this hatred, there is a good man who will overpower and thwart it. And that goodness my father says, is what keeps the world moving...``

Say Mr. Eklavya, you make a lot of sense…u sure you`re an Indian? :)

anNY,

What a passionate and sincere post :)

One of the reasons I have so admired scout is that she is one outspoken, clear-headed, take-no-nonsense Muslim and Pakistani. Her passion, like yours, is mostly of the best kind. When people bring such passion to the table, there is bound to be both light and heat on any subject. That is part of the attraction! :)

Despite your generous words, I must confess I face the same difficulties that you do. Sometimes I lose patience, and can`t avoid the cheap momentary thrill that comes from indulging in one-up-man-ship, sarcasm, and scoring points (Sometime back, Professor Ahmad had a wonderful post requesting poeple to avoid such mistakes). For example, I just wrote a `sexist` post on another board!! (What can I say, I am ashamed, and expect to be hammered for it :)

anNY, please use Chowk both to learn and to have fun. The ability to interact with such a diverse, knowledgeable, and intelligent group of people is nothing short of pure miracle. Sometimes I think I must be the only non-expert here!

Think of it this way: what you see as conflict may well be the most productive and key aspect of our interaction. Afterall, if we were all agreeing with one another here, we would be wasting time regurgitating one another`s prejudices, right? We can all learn from every one, and our best teachers may be people we don`t often agree with.

Now, guess who made that point about conflict being useful most forcefully sometime back? :)

JAY!!

re scout

Your opinions and mine are more often divergent than not. But please don`t leave. Philosophy and politics like we discuss here are but mere efforts to shed some light in the massive darkness and all of us play our part in our God given capacities. One less effort is one less flicker of light. So, in the words of Firaq,

``Tum judaa hoge to ho jaaegi yeh raat pahaar,

Raat ke raat thahr jao ke kuchch raat kate``

We are all travellers in darkness at some point. Keep us company.

re ferozk

Buddy, I thought the Mormons had cut you off from the internet or your good wife had put some sense in you!

Anyway, I agree with just about everything you said in the last post with this exception:

``Sig, the current tete a tete is nothing more than Freudian attempt to determine who is the ``big boy`` in Asia. ``

On this one I think a little more than Freud and Jung are involved. I trust this is an effort to balance the military discomfort with acute economic needs. Heck, I am the last one who wants a conflict with China. America`s economy will take a serious hit if that happens.

re india and iran

SO there is something to be said for the term ``indo-aryan`` eh?

Next thing you know, Pakistan`s mullah class will claim that the Shiites were Hindus all along!

In all fairness, the Taleban must be given credit for bringing everybody worth the name on one side (Pakistan and the Saudis being the exceptions). Who could`ve thought that Iran, USA, Russia, France, and India will all be allies for a little bit?

anNY...enough of the emotional melodrama already!

anNY 131

ABUSE AND VIOLENCE,

There are a few on the chowk, who believe in `civilised` exchange on the chowk, these are the ones from the west who have sold their soul. In all of the indian languages there is a rich vocabulary of abuses, they provide the relief for the tensions, with out leading to physical violence. The so called black turned whites with the help of industrial grade bleach, verbal abuse like like it is to their cultural heros, is terrible, but they have no problems in killing a few with remote controlled bombs in bagdad, no hurt sense of civility when a man is sent to prison for 25 years for stealing a pizza, provided he has been called `sir`, and then locked up. In india, he would have been abused, given a kick and sent home. That is barbaric. It is types of bilal ahmed who are trying to establish a western style of exchange on an essentially indo-pak forum with their senseless expressions of indignations. If they had cared to reflect back into their past, into their early surrounds they would have realised what they are talking about is the white mans shallow values. It is pathetic to see these individuals coming to the arena of heated exchanges with their damp sqibbs, they should stick with the poetry threads and try to get some flavours off the brown sugar preparations. What is on chowk is the indo pak style, the mud slinging and posturing, never real violence. Men killed in the so called three indo pak wars is less than what the great white men of US knock off at homes in a year, the culture and style of exchange, the allegedly civilised on the forum are trying to foster on chowk.

I lost track of the original topic, may be later.

regards

jay

scout,

I go away from Chowk for a few days & whats this I see? youre going to leave chowk?!! Are you crazy?!! Who the heck is going to check Saxena now? Do you know how many times you have gouged out his family jewels with one slash of your keyboard? Never mind that rakshash grows new ones like sharks do when they lose their teeth.

I`m sorry I teased you about him. I was just giving you guys a taste of your own medicine when you were teasing ylh.

Listen, if moderates start leaving Chowk, then this place will be occupied only by bigots. A few of my posts to harimau are being censored by Chowk staff. I may disagree with the logic behind their censorship, but I have to respect their privilege & perogative to do so, as they own this site. Despite that, its a great place for all to read, write & think.

Please reconsider. Chowk will be unbearable without my cute little jalapeno kid sister.

Cyra Reply # 136

``anNY...enough of the emotional melodrama already!``

cyra..doll..must we be nasty?

Eklavya # 132

``The ability to interact with such a diverse, knowledgeable, and intelligent group of people is nothing short of pure miracle.``

I agree wholeheartedly with your post and especially the above Sir. Its incredible being part of a community such as this. If u can, please mail me at annythedud@yahoo.com. (this is what chowk does..i`m asking an INDIAN to mail me!!nothing short of a miracle I assure you)

I still find it hard to believe you`re an Indian though :0)

Jay # 137

When I started interacting at chowk some time back, I would view bilal ahmed sahabs posts with much suspicion and incredulity. Like, could he be for real? Itnee tameez aur saleeqa was hard to digest. It was only when we had a teacher to take our literature class last semester that I understood his kind of people. Iftikhar Shafi a teacher of the English department at the University of Karachi in his mid 20`s (I think) taught us literature for 6 months. The man was so incredibly humble, nice (for desperate want of better words) we couldn`t stop staring- it was like an Indian movie (no offence here) where every single individual in the class was touched by his goodness, even the idiotic political activists we have in our class. He is some where in the U.S now, conducting research on sufism and may he be happy wherever he is. People like you and me consider people like him and bilal sahab freaks. We fight and diss each other thinking of only our goal, nation, religion and ideology. Would it ever cross your mind that a post by you which is derogatory towards Pakistan will make many momentarily miserable and for the more jazbatee like me, more or less dampen the day? I`m not being sappy and emotional here at all; just trying to make you understand like I did, not very long ago that it is people like Bilal sahab and Sir Shafi who lend some sanity to this otherwise budtameez world. And to say mean things like `senseless expressions of indignations` and `damp squids` is not a very nice thing to do. You say people like them have sold their souls. Atleast its not soiled with hate like yours and mine, haanjee?

jay,

i don`t see how you can continue after reading anNy`s post.

:O)

RE: # 193 aNNy

[When I started interacting at chowk some time back, I would view bilal ahmed sahabs posts with much suspicion and incredulity. Like, could he be for real? Itnee tameez aur saleeqa was hard to digest. It was only when we had a teacher to take our literature class last semester that I understood his kind of people. Iftikhar Shafi a teacher of the English department at the University of Karachi in his mid 20`s (I think) taught us literature for 6 months. The man was so incredibly humble, nice (for desperate want of better words).......]

--WARNING--WARNING--WARNING--WARNING--WARNING--

Dear Anny, please BEWARE of the humble (slick), nice (glib) professors and ex-professors of KU or any other Pakistani Univ.

- The saleeqa and tameez are instruments that help in trapping the young innocents. Marketing ploys for their ideologies if you like.

- These sly Profs. exist on all sides, left of center and as well as right of center. Thus we have Jamaati sweet talkers, Commie/Liberal sweet talkers, Tableeghi sweet talkers, Mohajir sweet talkers etc. etc.

- They are aware of and at times even control the ``nastier`` side of the tanzeem. So a Jamaa`ti sweet talker knows about the existence of the danda and the KK brigades and could be part of the ``decision making`` body that decides on where to use the danda or the KK.

- Even if one believes in the Islamic or the Liberal or some Punjabi/Sindhi cause, these can be served better once education is done.

Just my 2 cents.

Omar, I really disappointed in you, why it`s the job of NYTimes or for that matter the west or other western media to do the PR job for Pakistan. Whose job it is? Anyway. Doesnt the positive image thingy start at home, what Pak has done lately (or fiffty so yrs) to improved its image. Why should we then complain `biased west` is not reporting the positive side of us. When we indeed providing the fuel to the fire.

West didnt created the honour killing, Ahmedi bashing, Karo kari, and all that not so good with Pakistan. It is us who are to blame. We never have really worked hard to improve our image at all, we do or did is just blame other for our miseries. What we need is a serious soul searching even if it comes at the cost of Talbanization of Pak, so be it(then we gonna learn the very hard way). Yes indeed!

anNY,

CHOWK AND SEVILLE ROW,

Everything has its place in the scheme of things, chowk at best have two threads where there is some fire works, that is chowk, look at the imagery, it is street with narrow lanes, there are small shops, awkward signage, uncouth personnel, not the saville row of suited men in top hats. Every body knows the rules, indo-pak articles makes its slow beginning till some one spills the blood and there is a posting frenzy, it exceeds 200 easy, and if there are a few more like the urtruly, ali1 etc, it easily exceeds 500. one cannot have an exchange of 500 posts of distilled wisdom. Once the frenzy starts it is the turn of the pious and the meek to quitt the thread, any how they inherit the earth, at least according to bible.

on a personal note, the highest state of human being is one of total awareness of oneself, and in t your case if you can sense the feeling of hatred towards hindus and become aware of it, then you have no hatred, most likely not towards any one. One who is hateful wallows in it unaware of it. what is supreme is the integrity, not to give in to pretensions in the hope achieving something, even when it is trivial, the respect from an unknown group using psuedo names.

Value loaded name calling to the extent that one is compelled to post very personal experiences to prove otherwise is a trend that need to be fought.

regards

jay

Book Title: The Trial of Henry Kissinger (English)

Author: Christopher Hitchens

Review: This books describes how US and Henry Kissinger were involved in supporting Pakistan in the massacre of 3.6 million Bengalis during the Bangladesh war. Also they were involved in coup of Bangladesh which killed Shiekh Hasina`s entire family. This book is a must read for all Bangladeshis and Pakistanis. (maybe Indians too)

With the detention of Augusto Pinochet, and intense international pressure for the arrest of Slobodan Milosovic, the possibility of international law acting against tyrants around the world is emerging as a reality. In this incendiary book, Hitchens takes the floor as prosecuting counsel and mounts a devastating indictment of a man whose ambitions and ruthlessness have directly resulted in both individual murders and widespread, indiscriminate slaughter. He investigates and reveals Kissingers` involvement in: the deliberate mass killings of civilian populations in Indochina; the deliberate collusion in mass murder and assassination in Bangladesh; the personal suborning and planning of a murder, of a senior constitutional officer in a democratic nation that the USA was not war with - Chile; the incitement and enabling of a mass genocide in East Timor; and the personal involvement in the kidnap and murder of a journalist living in Washington DC.

re mohajir # 144

The leftist intelligentsia often misunderstands the the coup that left SHeikh Mujib and his familt dead. In its love of everything that stinks of anti-Americanism, the pinkos ignore the reality of the dictatorship that Mujib created. Please don`t mislead others about this. The facts are as follows:

1. Mujib was the murderer of democracy in 1975 when he created a one-party state that was policed by his Gestapo known as the `Rakhibahini`.

2. Mujib`s one-party state allowed only four newspapers, all, of course, government controlled.

3. Mujib`s security forces killed thousands of political opponents including valiant freedom fighters just like Pinochet`s did. Interestingly enough, some bodies were never found.

4. Mujib, in January 1975 decreed all judges and top civil servants to be become memebers of his one-party BKSAL system. Those who refused, a la General PM, were retired.

5. On the day he was assasinated, Mujib was to be declared `President fo Life` at the Dhaka University campus.

6. Mujib`s son was caught red handed in late 1974 while attempting a robbery of the gold vault at Bangladesh Bank.

7. Kennedy said it best, ``those who make reform impossible, make revolutions inevitable``.

8. Notwithstanding the nonsense about Kissinger and CIA`s involvement, the revolt of 1975 againts the Mujib dictatorship was led entirely by officers and men who were freedom fighters of 1971 and had little love for the US. The fact remains that the top leaders of the coup resided in Libya (Amercian ally, eh?) for the longest time after the coup.

9. Mujib was a great leader of the War of Independence of 1971. He destroyed his standing by detroying the very freedom that 3 million Bengalis died for. In this regard a man named Benedict Arnold comes to mind-great freedom fighter until greed got the best of him.

10. For all his patriotism, Mujib let walk free those 195 officers of the Pakistan Occupation Forces against whom there were serious allegations of genocide.

11. Please save us Bengalis the grief over a fallen dictator.

Is Bush administration seeing India as strategic partner?

By Aziz Haniffa, India Abroad News Service

http://in.news.yahoo.com/010414/43/rhpx.html

Washington, Apr 14 - U.S. President George W. Bush`s drop by at a meeting between National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice and Indian External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh earlier this month was more than just a protocol gesture.

In fact, his invitation to Singh to join him in the Oval Office was not only a carefully orchestrated move with potentially profound implications but a conscious decision to co-opt India into a strategic partnership, not so much as a counterweight to China but as a dependable ally in the region, say knowledgeable officials.

That the timing of Singh`s visit and Bush`s significantly long chat with him happened when Washington was sparring with Beijing, the sources acknowledged, was a coincidence, but they were making no apologies for it and asserted that if China perceived the U.S. as coveting India as a strategic partner, so be it, said senior officials, speaking to IANS on condition of anonymity.

Although some senior State Department officials and Singh -- who also wears the defense minister portfolio -- himself has said the nearly 40 minutes of conversation that Bush engaged him in could hardly be construed as a nudge to Beijing, particularly at a time when Washington was engaged in a serious spat with China over its spy plane, other officials including some in the Pentagon and the National Security Council acknowledged that there was more to it than meets the eye.

These officials said the Bush administration, especially the president, did not see the U.S. playing any aggressive or intermediary role in either Europe or the Middle East as its predecessor Clinton administration had done, but instead saw the potential new theater of engagement as Asia and, in that, China as the emerging threat.

The sources, to emphasize their point that the administration was intent to pursue its relationship with India to a significantly unprecedented strategic level, spoke of the meeting with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld that followed the meetings with the president, Rice, and Secretary of State Colin Powell.

Here was Rumsfeld, the most important of the triumvirate of President Bush`s foreign policy advisers and the person closest to Vice President Dick Cheney -- who had not too long ago grouped India with ``rogue states`` like North Korea and Iran, and slammed Russia for providing nuclear knowhow to India -- saying not only that he would have no qualms if the remaining sanctions against New Delhi were lifted, but entering into substantive agreements with New Delhi`s defense establishment.

They included a high-level dialogue between himself and the defense minister of India, analogous to the one that Singh and the State Department have been conducting, exchange visits between the chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff of the U.S. and the chiefs of staff of India, and other agreements in other areas of military agreement.

Here, at the very first meeting between the new administration`s defense secretary and Singh, were in principle agreements, which in one sweep envisaged expanding relations far beyond the hitherto mundane joint military exercises between the two countries, which according to the Pentagon sources, had hardly meant anything at all.

As a quid pro quo for India`s being a willing partner, the sources said the thinking in the strategic circles in the administration was that the dialogue with New Delhi be elevated to a serious security dialogue beyond the usual contentious non-proliferation component, which the Bush foreign policy team saw as an oxymoron anyhow because it had no intention of signing the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT).

That this thinking had preceded Singh`s visit by weeks, the sources said, was manifested by the president`s nomination of Harvard professor Robert Blackwill as the new ambassador to India. Blackwill`s having dealt with global politics in the National Security Council, when he served the current president`s father in the first Bush administration, and his recent interactions with the Russian and Chinese military officials was a deliberate decision to engage New Delhi seriously in a security dialogue, they said.

Thus, these officials told IANS that a conscious decision had been taken at the highest levels to co-opt India into a strategic partnership, not so much as a counterweight to China but as a dependable ally in the region and to indicate Washington`s intentions at the earliest possible opportunity. That the timing of Singh`s visit and Bush`s significantly long chat with him happened when Washington was sparring with Beijing, the sources acknowledged was a coincidence, but they were making no apologies for it and asserted that if China perceived the U.S. as coveting India as a strategic partner, so be it.

Stephen P. Cohen, director of the South Asia Program at Brookings Institution, believes Blackwill`s pending appointment was an extremely well-calculated move by the president on the advice of his strategic advisers, who believed the envoy-in-waiting`s expertise on the Chinese military`s psyche could be invaluable in seeking to co-opt India as a strategic ally.

Sumit Ganguly, professor of Asian Studies and Government at the University of Texas at Austin, told IANS, ``the State Department may well brush off the significance of the presidential nod to Jaswant. However, I am sure that the time spent with Jaswant was not accidental even if it was unplanned. Someone in his foreign policy entourage must have tipped off Bush of the potential utility of talking to Jaswant while the American crew were languishing in a Chinese military base on Hainan Island.``

However, Ganguly argued, ``The real issue, of course, is whether or not this meeting and the visit will lead to tangible improvements in Indo-U.S. relations or if they will remain only at the level of atmospheric changes.``

``It will be interesting,`` he said, ``to see if the administration in its quest for better ties with India works to lift sanctions further, allows the sale of dual use technology to India and starts addressing India`s deep-seated concerns about Pakistan`s feckless support to various insurgent groups in Kashmir such as the Lasksher-e-Taiba and the Harkat-ul-Mujahideen.``

According to a State Department official, the U.S. was not engaged in a ``zero-sum game`` with New Delhi and Beijing, as previous administrations had been accused of playing with India and Pakistan during the Cold War years.

``It (Singh`s visit) was a good opportunity that was very well used by both sides to get our relationship on a sound footing with the new administration,`` the official said.

Mr. Mirza,

I think the comments you made in your article are accurate and formidable. In your ``bio`` at the end of your article it stated that you often have letters published in Dawn. Have you written any the the Post or the Times? If so, have they been published? This is, in my opinion, one way to get your views out into the open. Another is to write a book. You write well. Perhaps a fiction story based in fact will reach a wider readership and can create support for your point of view.

That is, of course, unless you want to return to Pakistan for a visit one day.

Published Dawn Letters to the ed Wednesday,

June 27

Interest-based system

It was refreshing to read Z. Ali Mallah`s common sense view (letter, June 22 ``Interest based system``)that, ``World countries will stop investment as they will be no commitment of returns. People who have extra money in Pakistan will also stop depositing money in the bank for the very same reason.``

I would only like to add that in the absence of viable market-Islamic financial instruments, when the world has become a global village, capital flight is inevitable, as excess capital always seeks the highest return without regard to national ideology, only individual self-interest.

At that point, if the government is unable to pay its domestic debts, it will simply become insolvent, and when all the widows and pensioners who invest in national savings schemes queue up to ask for their principal (the face value of the government bonds they currently hold) they will all be told to go to hang themselves.



What a triumph for unelected Mullahism that will be! All will be equally hungry, poor, and destitute, just like in Afghanistan. Then, once mass despair with `Western influenced government institutions, and the absence of accountable government` has fully set in, the Mullahs can take over the government and run an utterly unabashed totalitarian state in which no one else has either modern democratic rights,half a say, or a free opinion. There won`t be any free press either. I assure you all of that.

What a master plan!

OMAR MIRZA

New York, USA