Obsession with Borderline Issues

Harimau #434

Quran was accumulated during Prophet`s own time. Special care was taken to preserve it. There were scribes. People not only used to memorize it but there is continuous recitation of Quran five times a day by each Muslim. Companions of prophets had written version of it with them.

You can appreciate the fact that accumulation of Quran in a written form was taken when 10,000 Huffaz (meaning people who know the whole Quran by heart) were martyred in a battle at the time of Uthman RZAH. There is no doubt on authenticity of it.

Hadith is a different matter. Prophet PBUH himself prohibited writing of his Hadith. It was collected probably 100 years or more after prophet`s death. And is based on narration of single individuals.

That is why there is much controversy in Hadith. Not in Quran. It is so well memorized by millions of people all over the world that written form is compared with memorized to correct the written form.

I think this clarifies.

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Harpreet # 436

I agree.

On the other hand, there is no dearth of examples in history when demented ideas have turned into firmly-believed, ruling idealogies of entire nations, causing untold deaths, destruction, and wars.

Isn`t that a sobering thought?

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For all Muslim of Pakistan belonging to different tribal groups and claiming to be of Arab (noble) origins, many some claiming to be descendants from a single individual.

Some Pathans claim themselves to be of semitic origin, some believe themselves to be from one of the ``lost`` tribe of Israel and some other Afghans claim to have originated from a close relative of Mohammad who ended up in Afghanistan.

In Punjab, more than a million Awans/ Maliks of salt range claim to be descendants of one Syed Qutb Shah of Arab origin who came to the Indus, about 1000 years ago. Arain think themselves of Al-Raia (farmers) from MB Qasim. They are several millions. More than one million Abbasis of northern Punjab claim to be related to Mohammad through one of his uncle. Gakkhars of Rawalpindi, known generally as Kiyani claim to be of royal Persian origin and also related to some noble Arab.

Then there are Syeds, Qureshis, Siddiquis, Farooquis, Usmanis, Alavis, Zaidis, Naqvis, ``rehanansaris`` and so on, each group theoretically originating from a single individual of 1000-1400 years ago.

Here are some known facts from around the world to consider and compare with Muslims claims.

Several hundred or thousands, Native Americans came to Americas mostly during the last ice age about 12-13 thousand years ago. There were about 110 million of them when Columbus arrived Hispaniola. From thosand(s) to 110 million in 13000 years. Hundreds or thosands of Parsees came to India more than 1000 years ago following the conquest of Iran by Muslims. How many Parsees there are in more than 1000 years and not descendants from one single individual. SS Bounty sank more than 200 years ago in the South pacific, leaving 6-10 survivals on Paitcairn Island. There are less than 200 inhabitants now living on Pitcairn Island, isolated most of the last 200+ years and proven blood relatives by scientific methods. All Icelandic people, all 230,000 of them are scientifically proven descendants of 50-100 Vikings who first settled there about 1000 years ago. 230,000 from 50-100 individuals in 1000 years with almost no warfare or major epidemic.

So how many descendants are possible from each person of Arab origin, ending up in sub-continent about 1000 years ago? Let us not forget many epidemics, inter tribal warfares and moving out of tribe for any reason. Also consider the world population rising very slowly until the last 200 years when scientific advances helped population of the world to shot up. Not even 50,000 people can be possible descendants from a single individual in 1000 years, Arab or non-Arab!

For diasporic Punjabi Brigade at Chowk and Rehananasari:

Punjabi conference urges talks to end Indo-Pak disputes

From our correspondent

LAHORE - A four-day International Punjabi Conference, attended by scholars from various countries, including the Indian Punjab, concluded here on Monday with a unanimous appeal to India and Pakistan to settle their disputes through dialogue.

A declaration issued and adopted at the concluding session of the conference, sponsored by the World Punjabiat Foundation, said the disputes should be resolved so that attention could be diverted to development and progress in both countries.

The conference called for providing maximum facilities, including grant of visa for longer periods to writers, artists and other intellectuals, to enable them to undertake visits for promoting a culture of peace.

It demanded that special attention be paid to removing obstacles which impeded the progress of women who constituted 50 per cent of the population in both the countries.

The conference called for creating a web site for the Punjab, Punjabi and Punjabiat and demanded that universities in both the countries teaching Punjabi as a subject should introduce one paper (of at least 100 marks) to be taught in both Persian and Gurmukhi scripts. It said that since all languages in Pakistan were national languages, the medium of instruction at the primary level should be the mother tongue.

The declaration said that the provinces and the centre should provide adequate financial assistance to institutions engaged in research work for the development of Punjabi language, literature and culture. It said that the World Punjabi Conference, attended by about 400 delegates provided an opportunity for discussion on issues pertaining to international brotherhood and human rights.

Speaking at the concluding session, conference chairman Fakhr Zaman criticised certain elements who, he said, were hurling accusations at the conference and clarified that nothing was said at the gathering which could be termed as against the ideology of Pakistan or against Pakistan and Islam.

He said that the participants firmly believed that Pakistan and India were physical realities. He said that people of all the four provinces, including Punjab, had the right to speak for their cultures and work for their promotion and development.

Pakistan as a federation could be strengthened only if all the provinces were culturally strong.

Farzana #440, ``No religion can ever qualify as a

panacea; it can at best be a reprieve. So, to either put it on a pedestal or crush it beneath one’s feet reveals a mindset full of pigeon crap and the smelling of the soles of the feet.``

AMEN.

farzana Versey #440:

[Sameer, how did you like moderating this board? I know I was among one of those not ‘on-track’. But what to do? We Indians are like this only:)]

Farzana: My guess was wrong! I thought this article to be pushed to ``previous page`` over the weekend and that decreased my intensity of moderating or interacting because I seldom visit previous page. After certain number of replies on such a hot topic, the discussions on chowk turn to debating with elevating temperature and tempraments. Under such conditions, rheroic runs supreme in rebuttals. The issues usually involve, Kashmir, Mohammad or Quran to which I have less informed and hense show less interest.

I took easy way out in one of my previous post by not disagreeing to Muslim rituals but considering them under the acute circumstances of infancy of Islam. Basically, it meant that I am not going to abide by them in my personal life under current conditions-circumcision being irreversible in general. In food whether dates or mangoes, it is availability, taste and nutrition value that counts and not the immitate the availability and taste of highly revered individuals. Otherwise, in my case, I will have to not only eat dates but drink ``soma`` too, only if I know what natural carbohydrates my ancestors used to brew such a strong drink that Punjabis became so fun-loving and intermixing with other castes under its influence that it got mentioned in Mahabharata in negative terms. Indian and Pakistani leaders need to drink soma and then discuss bilateral issues.

regards,

Sameer

Ref Farzana Versey #: 440

[Times have changed, but since these people insist on wearing THEIR shuttlecock burqas (No, Scout, it is not an Indian thing – it is that mesh strip near the eyes of the hijab, but some people like to use the word shuttlecock, because the latter part of the word lets them crow)]

Have you ever considered the possibility that the resemblance to a shuttlecock (the cloth covering the head, mesh near the eyes) is why I called it a shuttlecock burqa as opposed to ``the latter part of the word`` which lets me crow; you need to get your mind out of the gutter, Farzana.

[So, to either put it on a pedestal or crush it beneath one’s feet reveals a mindset full of pigeon crap and the smelling of the soles of the feet.]

Krashid, Ali1, Urstruly: Farzana says you have a mind full of pigeon-crap. Personally, I thought it was camel-dung.

[Everyone knows that in my country at least more Hindus commit bigamy. Sheer numbers, will be the response. But they aren’t supposed to, no?]

Not at all so. Hindus are not prohibited by their religion from having multiple wives. But a polygamist Hindu cannot get a government job. In fact, even to marry a second time, the man has to have a good reason such as not having a son AND must get consent in writing from the first wife. And he still cannot get a government job. These are not regulations enforced against Muslims of India.

You said, quoting me, {I hope you are heeding the sage advice you have got:)…[“Don`t let Farzana and others tell you that somehow there was an equivalent of a PhD qualifier examination, followed by a dissertation and an oral defense to get admitted to the Islamic fold. All you have to do is to recite ``La ilahi illallah Muhammed rasulallah``, have yourself circumcised and eat a dish of beef and you are now a Muslim. In the case of Americans who convert because of their desire to marry a Muslim woman, they have already passed the cut-dick and beef-eating portions (the practicals, as you might call it) and just have to do the viva voce.

The beef-eating part was to ensure that the guys don`t become Hindus the day after the thugs leave town.”]

Circumcision has become such a common practice that only illiterates assume you have to convert to get your foreskin detached. Of course, if you want your dick cut, then perhaps you have to join the ranks of hijras; there is no dearth of intellectual eunuchs here.

Beef-eating is quite prevalent among Hindus. In fact, I do not eat beef, my mother is vegetarian, and I was one too for four years. Once walking through a maidan in Thrissur, Kerala (which I consider my second home), I was with an acquaintance, Suresh. He saw a fat cow and commented, “You folks in North India (anyone beyond Karnataka in N.Indian for S. Indians) worship this, don’t you? When we look at a cow, we only think of eating it!” Ditto my Bengali friend who longingly looked at one specimen and said, “Wow, that looks like good steak!” In Rajasthan, at one of the haveli restaurants I was told about Marwari boys from good families who stealthily visited late at night for beef and daaru. So let us not pretend. There are only two states that can be called vegetarian – Tamil Nadu and Gujarat.}

I was talking about 10th century India when Hindus did not eat beef or get their children circumcised. I have been told that in 1947 during the Partition riots, the standard test to check if someone was a Muslim or Hindu before assaulting the person was to check for an intact foreskin. So you can brag all you want about your beef-eating Hindu friends but the fact remains that beef WAS prohibited to Hindus at the time of Islamic invasion and remained so until very recent times when Hindus have started frequenting McDonald`s.

You said, quoting me, {And for the path-breaking post now: [“Why should I not fling their atrocities in their face every chance I get? Why should I not ridicule their prophet for his revelations regarding kafirs or his personal sexual proclivities? Isn`t religion supposed to teach you moral behavior? How can anyone have sex with a 9-year-old? How can anyone marry the widow his nephew? Weren`t there any other eligible males in all of Arabia? Did Muhammed have to take care of everyone`s needs personally? Or was he taking care of his sexual needs first?

Why don`t the Islamic thugs respond with rebuttals? Because, they CANNOT!

They follow a barbaric religion and claim they are civilized. No f***ing way!”]

Moral behaviour from someone who talks like this?}

I am not writing Life`s Little Instruction Book for others to follow to the letter, am I? My life is not documented as the Sunnah, to be followed by everyone of my co-religionists, is it? I am NOT EVEN proclaiming the superiority of Manu`s Laws, the Vedas, or the Upanishads. So why do you worry about MY moral behavior?

So, answer the question: what makes a 56-year-old man have sex with a 9-year-old child, someone who is young enough to be his granddaughter, if not great-granddaughter?

[Why don’t the thugs respond with rebuttals? Hey, if the thugs started doing that, people like you wouldn’t be around, right?]

So, rebut me and make me leave Chowk covered in shame. I dare you, Farzana!

Dr. Krashid #437:

[I have no problem with religion per se or religious people.

In my opinion, religion had a large role to play in current condition of Muslims all over the world.

The points, I raised are important regarding the dynamism in Muslim societies, which is static at this point.]

I agree with your statement conditionally only. Perhaps, like yourself, all my family members are believing Muslims. At personal or iindividual level, there is no problem with trading love and respect with individuals of any faith. But, I suppose, we are not discussing religion at personal level. We are discussing influence of religion in society, public and government, in terms of its short-term and long-term effects. Let me put it in another way. Is it better to have as much religious influence in all sectors of Pakistan as we are currently experiencing? Has it contributed positively in any of the major areas of interest in Pakistan? I see it irrelevent considering crime rate, corruption, politics, feudalism, Kashmir, unity, peace, stability, development, economy, education, rights of minorities and women. I say it is either a by-stander or used (or abused) in a variety of ways, leading to more negative than positive results.

I have repeatedly stressed even the negative results of attaching to it passionately and spending extensive amount of time, energy and money on rituals. It is nothing personal against any one particular individual. You or Tahmed321, must be balancing your huqooq-e-Allah and huqooq-ul-ibad but average Pakistani neither have higher education, open mindedness and experience with other successful societies as you or I have. It is more of State responsibility to tone down their rhetoric, involvement and education/ textbooks to balance religion with rationality and propel universal values about morality and ethics in addition to teaching some balanced version of history.

regards,

Sameer

Re: Farzana #440

[There are only two states that can be called vegetarian – Tamil Nadu and Gujarat...]

Tamil Nadu? Vegetarian?? You must be cuckoo! Tamil non-veg cooking is one of the best in India. And you will find non-veg eateries there as easily as in Delhi or Bombay.

Vegetarianism in Tamil Nadu is mostly restricted to the Brahmins who form some 5% or less of the population.

Krashid # 437

It is not easy to look objectively at one`s own `religion,.` On that score, you have my congratulations.

The truest love for one`s religion/culture consists in recognizing its follies and working to correct them. If we have a child or a mother, and they are coughing terribly, we can either

1. take them to the doctors, get medicine, and administer that medication, howsoever unpleasant;

or,

2. go around claiming that they are not coughing at all, but actually singing a beautiful song in a language no one can understand without some `special` training.

For some strange reason, people seem to prefer the latter option. What kind of love is that?

harimau #435

I noticed my blunder as soon as submitted the post. Can`t offer any excuses. My fault.

Regards

Random Thoughts:

It is hilarious that people still assume that Muslims only eat dates, don’t wash, keep 4 women, and consider Saudi Arabia their Utopia. Times have changed, but since these people insist on wearing THEIR shuttlecock burqas (No, Scout, it is not an Indian thing – it is that mesh strip near the eyes of the hijab, but some people like to use the word shuttlecock, because the latter part of the word lets them crow), all they are interested in is seeing things only from their limited perspective. No religion can ever qualify as a panacea; it can at best be a reprieve. So, to either put it on a pedestal or crush it beneath one’s feet reveals a mindset full of pigeon crap and the smelling of the soles of the feet.

Everyone knows that in my country at least more Hindus commit bigamy. Sheer numbers, will be the response. But they aren’t supposed to, no? Regarding the stifling atmosphere in Saudi, my good Hindu friends tell me that the Indians working there have a ball. In fact, ask any mechanic/electrician/carpenter from Kerala just how much fun he has when he goes to fix matters in the Sheikh’s household, when the lord and master is away.

dost-mittar, in your response to me (#372), you stated, “Your observations about Bohras, Khojas and other Gujrati muslims are also borne out by my own experience. In fact, some of the Kutchies are regulars at Hindu/Indian cultural events. I have often wondered why they are so different from North Indian muslims in this respect. I am afraid, too, that

if the saffron brigade continues with its practices in Gujarat, these moderate muslims may not remain moderate for too long.” Don’t you think that this regional divide is applicable to all religious communities? Why single out Muslims as being different from one region to another? Btw, at least one Gujarati Muslim here cannot be honoured as a moderate, or will you consider me one?!

I hope you are heeding the sage advice you have got:)…[“Don`t let Farzana and others tell you that somehow there was an equivalent of a PhD qualifier examination, followed by a dissertation and an oral defense to get admitted to the Islamic fold.

All you have to do is to recite ``La ilahi illallah Muhammed rasulallah``, have yourself circumcised and eat a dish of beef and you are now a Muslim. In the case of Americans who convert because of their desire to marry a Muslim woman, they have already passed

the cut-dick and beef-eating portions (the practicals, as you might call it) and just have to do the viva voce.

The beef-eating part was to ensure that the guys don`t become Hindus the day after the thugs leave town.”]

Circumcision has become such a common practice that only illiterates assume you have to convert to get your foreskin detached. Of course, if you want your dick cut, then perhaps you have to join the ranks of hijras; there is no dearth of intellectual eunuchs here.

Beef-eating is quite prevalent among Hindus. In fact, I do not eat beef, my mother is vegetarian, and I was one too for four years. Once walking through a maidan in Thrissur, Kerala (which I consider my second home), I was with an acquaintance, Suresh. He saw a fat cow and commented, “You folks in North India (anyone beyond Karnataka in N.Indian for S. Indians) worship this, don’t you? When we look at a cow, we only think of eating it!” Ditto my Bengali friend who longingly looked at one specimen and said, “Wow, that looks like good steak!” In Rajasthan, at one of the haveli restaurants I was told about Marwari boys from good families who stealthily visited late at night for beef and daaru. So let us not pretend. There are only two states that can be called vegetarian – Tamil Nadu and Gujarat. My friend, incidentally a RSS sympathizer, has a case filed against him by the saffron brigade because he wrote about the protein content in cow meat. And he loves Muslim boys. He sleeps with them. Yes, he is gay. I suppose at some basic level, we all love one another!

Arun, how could you have such a sagely attitude towards the ranter around…almost paternal [“Would your style of discourse have the effect you desire on someone like you ? If not why do you think it will work on everyone else ?”] when I have not been spared for far less damaging things? Just idle curiosity, really.

And for the path-breaking post now: [“Why should I not fling their atrocities in their face every chance I get? Why should I not ridicule their prophet for his revelations regarding kafirs or his personal sexual proclivities? Isn`t religion supposed to teach you moral behavior? How can anyone have sex with a 9-year-old? How can anyone marry the widow his nephew? Weren`t there any other eligible males in all of Arabia? Did

Muhammed have to take care of everyone`s needs personally? Or was he taking care of his sexual needs first?

Why don`t the Islamic thugs respond with rebuttals? Because, they CANNOT!

They follow a barbaric religion and claim they are civilized. No f * * *ing way!”]

Moral behaviour from someone who talks like this? How can you have sex with a 9-year-old? Question asked by someone who lives in a country where child marriage, ashram sexcapades, devadasi sacrifices are common? Marrying the widow of his nephew? Better than sleeping with father-in-law, brother-in-law, don’t you think? And what about the maama-bhanji alliances in many communities? The devar-bhabhi rishtas? Cannot see? Did the Prophet have to take care of everyone’s need personally? No, I think he delegated some, which is why Islam has so many Imams. Are they one too many for you to handle? As for taking care of his sexual needs first, I assume that the angel Gabriel did some whispering in the Prophet’s ears, and since Islam has a deep respect for Christianity, the aural region assumes great significance. Perhaps that was one of the prerequisites. Anyway, I like the fact that the libido of its practitioners is alive and kicking. You have a problem? Why don’t the thugs respond with rebuttals? Hey, if the thugs started doing that, people like you wouldn’t be around, right? Who claims the followers of Islam are civilized? They are still enjoying camel rides, digging for oil in the desert (since they get their Evian from elsewhere) and using boom-boom stuff to bring down historical relics (instead of the hammering the others have to resort to at home, poor things). No way. Yeeeeeeoooooow. Barbarianism came from the word Babar, don’t you think?

And krashid, I did not like you calling India a gutter. There are some elements around that might qualify. Though again, let me refresh people’s memory. A certain moderate Hindu, an expat, had said a while ago when he was to visit India on a holiday that he could smell the gutter. There was not a cheep of protest or comment from anyone, except yours truly. I guess it takes a jalaad Mussalman to take up for her people. Look, didn’t I tell you, the Prophet delegated?

Sameer, how did you like moderating this board? I know I was among one of those not ‘on-track’. But what to do? We Indians are like this only:)

LOL (Lots of love, of course, to all),

krashid #428:

I just think that the fact that Jinnah was a Shia should be highlighted more in Pakistan today, in order to alleviate Sunni-Shia tensions.

harimau #435:

``[Drona Charya]

If you remove Acharya (teacher, respected person) from the name, do you see how the name becomes Drone?

Just a borderline thought.``

Drona means some kind of basket or trough... Drona was found as a baby floating in a basket in a river and was hence called Drona.

Looks like putting babies in baskets on the river was a popular pastime in the past - Drona, Karna, Moses...