Obsession with Borderline Issues

Zahra #427

I have no problem with religion per se or religious people.

In my opinion, religion had a large role to play in current condition of Muslims all over the world.

The points, I raised are important regarding the dynamism in Muslim societies, which is static at this point.

The points I raised were the sanctity of Fatwa or the role of Ulema. Is the role of Ulema in our society as a pimp of rulers to keep people in check? Or is it as a guide to help them solve the daily matters in their life?

What is the limitation of Ulema`s knowledge? Are they competent enough to comment on scientific or economic matters? Do they want us to live in a utopia while practical living is left on day to day forces?

Have you ever heard of the life of duplicity? Consider christians. Their theory of sins of christians being taken away by Jesus leaves them in a sinful state while guaranteeing them heaven. Does Islam has any such concept, that because a person is Muslim, he will go to heaven ultimately because he is a Muslim? Yes? So is there any difference. No?. But these thoughts are propagated in the name of Islam? No wonder, Muslims with power do all crimes, including drinking, formnication, human rights abuse etc and go scott free. Because Muslims are not guided to see a persons action as criteria of goodness.

This has historical roots. Where rulers and their cronies with few exceptions throughout Islamic history were drunkard, with big Harems etc. And people were told by Ulema to accept them for the greater good of Muslims. If one has to accept the greater good of Muslims as criteria, rather than God`s commandment, why a person should not convert to a religion which is giving greater good to its members.

Now it is not that we want our Maulvis or scholars to guide us. But they have taken the task themselves to guide us in the name of God.

Are they fulfilling their duty? Or they just want to keep their control over people`s mind in the name of God?

People are coming on this board, justifying all kind of criminal acts by Muslim rulers of past as if that is consonant with Islam. In recent history people are justifying criminal massacre of Bengalis in the name of Islam.

There is the dilemma. If I condone that action, I don`t consider myself judging according to the teachings of Islam. But the people who are considered the true Muslim are intent on justifying those actions as Islam.

I can give you a relevant example. Monotheist Christians are not considered christians by mainstream christians. Mainstream Christians represent the Christianity. While according to my outlook monotheist Christians are more near to the teachings of Jesus.

Eklayva #424:

``The Sikhs or Nanakshahis are followers of the Muslim Sufi saint Nanak Shah; hence Khalistan is a natural part of Mughalstan``

Some things are too preposterous, and some people are too ignorant and demented to take seriously.

regards

Harpreet

Ref friend #: 404

[Drona Charya]

If you remove Acharya (teacher, respected person) from the name, do you see how the name becomes Drone?

Just a borderline thought.

Ref krashid #: 426

[Gabriel recited to prophet PBUH who remembered it. The recitation was then written by scribes and other people also used to remember by heart.]

How good was Muhammed`s memory? How soon after the dictation was Al-Kitab written down? How good were the memories of others? Why can`t they tell us with certainty if Ayesha was 6 or 9 years old when Muhammed married her? How come so many versions of Muhammed`s life exist with contradictions, leading to centuries of ``research`` to determine which version is correct? If you can`t tell me with certainty why these contradictions exist, why should anyone assume that Al-Kitab is error-free?

[Although it is difficult for you to understand, but let me try.]

Now you know why it IS very hard for me to understand.

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Layman #418

So called Sunni fanatics including those Mullahs who sided with Congress against Pakistan or were against creation of Pakistan are forced in Pakistan to accept Jinnah as the only non controversial leader of nation.

In fact it is the liberals who sometimes bad mouth Jinnah and Mullahs come to defend Jinnah and Pakistan.

Irony man irony.

KRashid:

Thanks for the explanation! I think there is slight misunderstanding here. Your examples dealt with students and their pranks; mine were related to the ones who were in academia. I also have a lot of examples of the type that you`ve mentioned - of some teachers[not mine, of course], who in the electronic, physics or chemistry class[In the 1st/ 2nd years of engineering] would check women`s nail-polishes. In the Islamiyat class, will embarrace women by putting silly questions and comments. But those were individual actions than a group`s. Then the students` groups, who were nothing[Ulloos] but full of themselves[guys with damn ego problems] and just because they could fire one or two shots they started considering themselves as gods. Where the hell were their ``aql`` at that time? I find it nothing, but fake pride and ego that needed some vent - power vent! Had these people been so wise and nursed any noble intentions, they could have done a lot for their fellow students or the areas they hailed from. Some might have done that. But I think a lot more could have been acheived than just keeping mozars(sp?)in the back pocket and doing heart-warming ``naa`ra baazi.``

Do not get me wrong here. Religion is and has been abused in our country. There are many fine ways of doing that, but as Romair very rightly pointed out in one of his posts that the maulvis are not ready to take over the country so there are other issues that one should focus on. One should not feel threatened about it, unless the past affiliations(bad memories) force one to take some action.


You also have to realize that each person has a limit to their understanding and in some respect to their knowledge. You will not go and talk to a physical therapist about process control and expect him to understand your views. Similarly, you willn`t discuss things, which are very close to your heart with a stranger, and expect him to understand where you are coming from[You may end up doing that once you realize that the stranger can be on the same wavelength. So a correction here!]. In light of that, do recognize that your maulvis will have/have a lot of limitations. Their mind is not going to be that practical as yours, mainly due to the exposure, prioroties in life and the profession. So why expect them to be aware of all that you know. Personally, I would never waste my time on this issue. Listen to the ones you would like to. If you ever get a chance, do listen to an African American Imam - Siraj Wahaj. Stay away from Humza Yousaf`s clan. Also, do not ever waste your time listening to any Jamaati Leader as they have nothing to add to your knoweldge except chanting the ins-and-outs of Jamaat and its leaders. Complete waste of time! Again, the above has been my personal experiences and I would not generalize them.

Hope it resolves some ambiguities that can possibly be detrimental to the human race :-)

Take Care.

Harimau #423

Although it is difficult for you to understand, but let me try.

Gabriel recited to prophet PBUH who remembered it. The recitation was then written by scribes and other people also used to remember by heart.

Np, Studebaker is wrong. Dictaphone was not invented in 7th century.

I think this clarifies the matter.

I understand the difficulty of understanding allegorical way and symbolism, particularly if a person has a straight way of thinking.

Eklavya #424

And I am going to make my empire in the tradition of Napolean and Alexander :-)

Dimagh Ki Kharabi Ka Ilaaj Kia Hai.

I have never heard of such concept in my whole life. May be the person is one of the distant relative of Ahmed Shah Rangeela and is writing from asylum.

Or may be a charlatan, of which there is no dearth these days.

Any way it is good that the more civil we are getting on Chowk, more we are moving away from real issues.

Bum, Mum Jha Jha.

Re:SameerJB#401

Sameer,

India has always had pretty good relations with the Islamic world, in spite of the best efforts by Pakistan to create this notion of ``clash of civilizations`` at the Indo-Pak border. As you know, India was and remains a strong supporter of the Palestinians. India supported Saddam, when even Pakistan joined the US alliance against Iraq. It had good relations with the Saudis, Turkey, Iran and Central Asian regions. India is now building up on that foundation to develop greater geo-strategic relationships with the Islamic world.

The obvious motivation is commercial interests. India is a vast market for energy while the middle-east and central asia are the main sources of energy in the world. Secondly India eyes these markets for selling its products and services. The Islamic countries have a high regard for Indian professionals, especially in IT. In fact, India is fast replacing Pakistan as the supplier of skilled professionals to the Islamic world. In addition, India is also seeking defence agreements with countries like Iran, in order to build up its clout as a regional power. This is tacitly encouraged by US as a means to restrain China.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, it has actually left a vaccum in the Islamic world by focusing too much on Kashmir and Afghanistan. The obsession with these two areas has reduced Pakistan`s resources and capability to purse a strong policy of engagement with the Islamic world. In many cases, the Taliban phenomenon has turned off the Islamic world in a significant manner. As it is, Iran actively supports India and scuttles every move made by Pakistan at the OIC meetings. Hence as Pakistan gets enmeshed in Kashmir and Afghanistan, India is moving in and filling up the vaccum that Pakistan has left behind. The Taliban are also responsible for a total lack of economic cooperation in the Islamic world since the Islamic countries want to shun the Taliban. The irony is that if Pakistan actually uses its geo-strategic location effectively, it could become one of the wealthiest nations by simply facilitating trade and commerce between India and the Islamic world. Instead it is focussed on a destructive rivalry against India. The Islamic world has grown tired of all of that and they want to move on.

* * Gopal Gurung * *

Studebaker # 413

Check out the following website that is arguably the primary source of information on Gopal Gurung`s pathbreaking historical research.

http://www.dalitstan.org/

Amongst the many laudatory missions of this website is the establishment of a Mughalstan.

The website managers explain their goal as follows:

``we will break India once more and re-unite with our brethren in Pakistan and Bangladesh to form the greatest nation of the world - Mughalstan, ``The Land of Mughal-Muslims`` . Mughalstan is ``Greater Pakistan``, or ``Pakistan No. 2``. In other words, Mughalstan is ``India`s Bosnia`` - a nation within a nation. Mughalstan will Inshallah consist of the following coterminous territories :

PAKISTAN comprising Punjab, Afghanistan, Kashmir and Sindh.

BANGISTAN or Greater Bangladesh, comprising modern Bangladesh, southern Assam and the surrounding Muslim-dominated regions.

KHALISTAN, the Sikh Nation of Sufi Muslims. The Sikhs or Nanakshahis are followers of the Muslim Sufi saint Nanak Shah; hence Khalistan is a natural part of Mughalstan.

ROHILSTAN, northern Uttar Pradesh or `Rohilkhand`, with a 60 % Muslim population.

MALWASTAN or Malwa in Madhya Pradesh.

BIHARISTAN comprising the Muslim-dominated regions formerly known as `Magadha` in southern Bihar, and of course.

KASHMIR, the Crown of Mughalstan.``

I won`t describe the website in detail, lest the joy of discovery be lost. But following are some of the articles the website hosts:

1. Hinduism is Cow-Worship !

2. Bin Laden plans Restoration of Mughalstan

3. Maps of Mughalstan

4. Large Map of Mughalstan

5. A fine large map of Mughalstan by Pan-Islamic Mughalstan

6. Map of Ethnically Partitioned South Asia

7. International Mujahedin

8. Archives of Masood Azhar`s Speeches and the International Freedom-Fighters



9. `The Mujahedin are the moral equivalent of the Founding Fathers of America`

10. Brahminists support Zionist attack on Afghanistan



11. Hindu fanatics supporting Clinton`s madman attack

12. `Advani - I`m Back !`

Maulana Masood Azhar`s first speech on gaining freedom

13. Brahminist Genocide against Muslims: Several articles on the massacres

14. Hinduism`s 1500-Year War against Islam

15. The War of 1500 Years

Studebaker, it is sheer coincidence that the people you quote have such an enlightened and truthful world-view. In any case, I am glad you have hit upon a goldmine!! I expect a lot of cut and paste on authentic history now :)

Ref Studebaker #: 383

[Have you ever heard of transcripsitionists using dictaphone Dimm Witt ?????

Now dont tell me you didnt know Dictation was invented in 7th century --LOL ;-)Seriously ,most authoritative executive dont & cant write legiblly .]

So, Angel Jibreel dictated into a dictaphone and Muhammed called the local equivalent of Kelly`s Girls to transcribe from tape on to paper? Is that your explanation of how an illiterate Muhammad wrote down Al-Kitab?

Have you tried writing a letter to this effect to ``Dawn`` or ``Jung``? How about to a nice Urdu newspaper in your hometown in India with your local address?