Obsession with Borderline Issues

Ref ali1 #: 402

[Why can`t Reliance Infocom hire from the one billion bhooka nanga Indians? We know you guys are severely malnourished but surely you can pick up the shovel and dig?]

They will be using a Ditch Witch to dig those trenches. They want to finish the work in less than 2 years. So, you can forget about bhooka-nanga Indians or booka-nanga Pakistanis working in the millions to get the network done.

Ref AAmir #: 415

[IS YOUR SKULL MADE OF CONCRETE?]

No, but yours seems to be. See below.

[How many times do WE have to tell you BHUMIYAN belong to 25 million asfghanis muslims.REST 1 bn. dont own or rule over it SLOW LEARNER!!]

Isn`t that the same crap you guys have been peddling for a couple of centuries, once the British came to India and freed the Hindus from the grips of opium-eating, wine-drinking, dissolute Mughal sultans? That Muslims didn`t do it; it was just a few guys. So, this time it is Afghan Muslims. What motivated them to do it? Any idea? Do you read the papers? Did you get to understand the press releases by Foreign Minister Muttawakil and Emir Mullah Omar of Afghanistan?

[There is no central authority in Islam that o.k. yed it En.uuufff!]

Oh no! There IS a central authority. Life`s Little Instruction Book, Al-Kitab, otherwise known as the Quran. If you don`t think so, why don`t you walk down the streets of Peshawar calling out that Muhammed is a child molester and that the Quran is a fraud? You will see if there is a central authority or not in Islam!

[IF YOU HAD PRIDE HARI,YOU WOULD HAVE REMAINED BUDDHIST THAT PREDECESSORS OF HINDU & ALL WERE AS IT WAS THERE EVEN BEFORE HINDUISM!!!!?????]

There was Hinduism before Buddhism and there is Hinduism AFTER Buddhism. My forefathers were never Buddhists. We exported that religion outside India to China, Southeast Asia, Burma, Japan, and Sri Lanka. A very popular export, from what I understand but never met the local needs.

[you just another Coolies from India]

Is driving a cab getting to you?

China welcomed India and Iran`s efforts to bring peace in Afghanistan. China said on Monday that it welcomed all international efforts, including those by India, which could bring peace and stability to war-torn Afghanistan.

``China welcomes and supports all efforts that are

conducive to a peaceful resolution of the Afghanistan issue,`` foreign ministry spokeswoman Zhang Qiyue said when asked to comment on whether China saw a role for India in resolving the tangle.

Indian Prime Minister Vajpayee`s made a ground-breaking visit to Tehran during which the situation in Afghanistan figured prominently in talks with Iranian leaders.

China has expressed its concern about the Islamic

militancy in Afghanistan and its suspected links with an Islamic Uygur separatist movement in its northwestern Xinjiang province.

At the same time, the Chinese foreign ministry

spokeswoman said she had not read a statement made by Indian Prime Minister Vajpayee during his trip to Iran in which he described the Taleban as a ``threat to regional stability``.

Zhang pointed out that the civil war in Afghanistan had been going on for more than 20 years, which had not only made all the people suffer a lot but also brought a ``negative influence`` to peace and stability in

the region.

``Therefore, we hope Afghanistan can realise peace at an early date,`` she commented.

FYI : An American scholar will be publishing a paper shortly, I will post the citation when it is available. Meanwhile, here is a comment from him :

“While conducting my dissertation research in Tashkent, Uzbekistan I stumbled across the Majmu`a-i Wasaiq and found entry after entry referring to Indian slaves in Samarqand. I knew I had found something interesting, but I had no idea how to interpret the find until I was looking into the literature on Islamic expansion in India and noticed the mass exportation of recalcitrant tribes people. So much for the politically correct notion of a history of uniformly peaceful coexistence between Muslims and Hindus in India. It`s easy to criticize the exportation figures as exaggerated; it`s another to criticize the judicial records of Central Asian Qadis.”

This is another of those painful things from our history that we will have to come to terms with.

-Arun the I.

friend #403, ylh #300:

I remember reading recently that Jinnah was born into a Shia family. I wonder how this sits with Sunni fanatics in Pakistan who want to declare Shias non-Muslim...

Re: Ali1 #402

``bhooka nanga Indians?``

Yaar, check out the new India -- things have changed. Granaries are overflowing -- WTO restrictions have brought in all the goodies of the world (New Zealand kiwi fruit, European cheeses, etc.) Food prices are very low. Gone are the days of the Bengal famine of 1940(?). Did you read the article that I posted a link to about how life has changed in towns like Aurangabad?

Here is something more in the press about the current discussion. Indian foreign policy experts have been quite intrigued about Bush`s decision to appoint a Vulcan as the ambassador to India.



Bush`s Man In Delhi







Robert D. Blackwill, the next US Ambassador to India, will arrive in New Delhi at an important time for Indo-US relations. The implications of the appointment of Mr. Blackwill, a high-profile former diplomat, are unclear at this point, much like the substance of the Bush administration`s India policy. Mr. Blackwill, a scholar-practitioner, is known to be an individual thinker and a man who takes his work very seriously, and there is no doubt that he will leave his own distinct imprint on Indo-US relations.

Robert Blackwill is very much a powerful Bush insider, with strong ties to both generations of the Bush family. He worked for George Bush senior when he was President, and was member of the tight foreign policy team that advised Governor George W. Bush during the presidential campaign, serving as Senior Foreign Policy Advisor. Last December, the New York Times mentioned his name in a group of the 10 most influential foreign policy experts who worked most closely with Bush in formulating his foreign policy. This group included such heavy-hitters as Dick Cheney, Condoleeza Rice, former Assistant Secretary of Defense Richard Armitage, former Secretary of State George Shultz, Under-Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, and former Under-Secretary of State Robert Zoellick.

Robert Blackwill has a lot in common with these individuals - all of them are staunch Republicans who worked with administrations that were steeped in Cold War strategic thinking where security calculations drove foreign policy. Most of them worked together combating the Soviet Union and later expanding American influence in post-Cold War Europe, and then served as hard line Pentagon strategists in the 1991 Persian Gulf War. Mr. Blackwill, like Condoleeza Rice, is an expert on Soviet and Western European countries. As a diplomat he served as Director of West European Affairs on the National Security Council staff, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs, and US Ambassador and Chief Negotiator at the negotiations on the Warsaw Pact on conventional forces in Europe. In his most high-profile position, he served at the White House as Special Assistant to President George Bush for European and Soviet Affairs in 1989-`90.

Mr. Blackwill has also had a distinguished academic career at Harvard`s Kennedy School of Government, as the Belfer Lecturer in International Security before his appointment. He was known for managing innovative programs that brought Russian and Chinese military officers to the US to study at the Kennedy School. He also chaired the School`s Middle East initiative.

Like the foreign policy triumvirate of Powell, Rumsfeld and Cheney, he is experienced and is comfortable in dealing with strategic and national security concerns. Most of his scholarly work has focused on issues such as conventional arms control, new nuclear nations, America`s traditional Asian alliances with Australia, Japan and South Korea, and the problems and prospects of nuclear non-proliferation. Mr. Blackwill shares the challenge facing the Bush administration today of trying to balance the two powerful trends running through the Republican approach -- on the one hand a pro-business and free trading side, and on the other, a more hawkish side that sees the whole world through the prism of national security. India will have to hope that Mr. Blackwill is willing to go beyond his strategic background and engage India on its own terms as a nation that has much to offer for the mutual prosperity of both nations.

Mr. Blackwill appears to share the common view in Washington that US foreign policy in the years ahead will need to shift its focus from Europe and the Atlantic region to the Asia-Pacific region. He is known to be keenly interested in China, the pivotal country in the region for the US, and Washington gossip has him labelled as a bit of a ``panda-hugger`` -- a position which cannot be wildly popular with the current administration. Given China`s enormous importance militarily and economically, Mr. Blackwill has advocated a more tactful policy towards China in the past. A lesson Bush might well have heeded, seeing how the mismanagement and conflicting signals from the White House had led to the 11-day impasse over the American spy plane that crash-landed on Chinese territory.

Mr. Blackwill has argued that the US should see Asia as an inter-related region, where multilateral engagements provide the best means of dealing with a large number of potential tensions -- hence the importance of US ties to Australia, Japan and South Korea. This has an important implication for India - India is a prime candidate for joining such a multilateral engagement alongside the US, particularly given their stated interest in not having a hegemon (China) in Asia, particularly a hostile one. With the recent trouble in US-China relations, it is more than likely that US interests will focus more sharply on India as a means of balancing Chinese power. This, however, should not be a cause for celebration in India, which must learn from Pakistan`s experience of being a pawn in larger `Great Power` games. India ought to stick to its demand that it be engaged as an entity in its own right.

How the broader US-India relationship evolves remains to be seen, but it will be interesting to see how Blackwill manages the complex triangular relationship between India, the US and China. Ideally, such a relationship would bring about a `virtuous circle` - where harmonious bilateral relations between any two states will draw in the third -- but that might be too much to expect. Mr. Blackwill`s diverse background promises a tenure full of potential, so long as India is not subsumed by Cold War-type calculations.

Mandavi Mehta works with the Washington D.C. based think tank, Center for Strategic and International Studies. The views expressed here are her own and do not reflect those of her organization.

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ALL:

Check out what`s been happening in the sleepy old town of Aurangabad in the heart of India:

Keeping Up With the Shidhayes: India`s New Middle Class

By JAMES TRAUB (NY Times)

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/15/magazine/15INDIA.html?ex=988380026&ei=1&en=16767d1aba4f9182

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Sameer #: 401

The focus of the current Indian govt. is Trade with the middle east countries. There is also a “look east” initiative in the Indian foreign policy. There has been a lot of effort by the govt. to increase our trade with south east Asian countries. Corporate India has been pushing for moving from a ideology based foreign policy to a foreign policy that caters to our economic interests first. Association of Indian Industries has been pushing for this change for the last decade. We don’t want to be in a situation where our international trade is limited to the western countries.

I don’t think there is any overt anti Pakistani bias to this effort. In fact India is moving away from a foreign policy when we could not have close relations with countries that supported Pakistan. It serves India well to increase our international trade. In fact our trade with china is nearly $3 billion now and growing rapidly.

Regards,

Faruk

Re Sammer BJ #401

More Spin than anything else. The Americans are yet to evolve a majority consensus on what course of action they should embark on in domestic and global terms. They need to develop a clear definition of the post cold war world, a strategic mission statement of their role in the woprld. The lack of a clear concensus is reflected in the recent presidential elections. A global realignment has been taking shape since Mr. Y. Primakov suggested a trilateral grouping of Russia, China and India to counter American unipolarity. A Sunni revolution is very, very slowly gathering strength. Americans are clear that such a grouping is a real challenge and that amongst this group, India is most amenable, and least likely to be confrontational to American interests. India has been able to woo the American, Russian; the EU and especially France have made it clear that they will have an independent (not necessarity anti-American) foreign policy. The Taliban seem to have wasted their opportunity.

What is really interesting is India`s offer to police the Indian ocean and Persian gulf. Such a role has met with a negative reaction from Saudis (for the time being) Iran, an economic basked case till very recently, for too long as allowed to get away with a policy built on the sentiment ``are you a Muslim or Sunni?`` and the usual historic claim to grandeur, has decided that Iraq is no longer a threat and that it will have vassals in Afghanistan. They have provided men and material to the NA. Possibly it will play into the hands of those do not respect the territorial integrity of Afghanistan. Brotherly nations demonstrate their brotherlyness in cooperation and not the usurpation of fruits of their brother`s sacrifice. The recent decision to purchase Russian defense equipment is strategic in it`s implication for industry and economy. While the Indian PM carried a message on behalf of Bush to Khatami, Iran`s reintegration into the Western political economy remains elusive.

More than any other Power, it is the U.S. that finds itself isolated. Israel robs it of it`s cloak among the Arabs (even these so-called Maliks, Ameers and Presidents need a modicum of legitmacy amongst their populace). Sunni Islam, lethargic and slow to anger, every day gains strength. This pot has many, many more years to boil. The silence of the Europeans in the recent tiff with the Chinese, is deafening. The East Asians have made it clear they are in no mood to finance miltary conflict. The Turks have awakened to find that Bankers have decided the fate of their economy and IMF to the rescue; Turkish ambition to seek succor on the mean streets. The degree to which the Indian develops deeper relations with these countries, only good can come to the people of India and of these countries. Pakistan`s relationship with these countries has a different dynamic, a different rational. The Azaan will mean next to nothing to the Indian, whether in Riyadh, Tehran or Ankara.

These alignments are not necssarily bad for Pakistan, on one condition though: Pakistan must evolve a stable, representative, republican, transparent, Islamic political system. Tall order. The usual complaint will be the ``Islamic`` aspect of this Order. But this Order is a requirement of history, culture and sentiment and this Order need not be Anti-American, or Chinese or Indian. Pakistan`s survival is linked to it`s will to do so and to it`s relationship with the PRC. A Fauj, Islamic, republican, in it`s institutional orientation, an integral, nation building partner of the political apparatus is needed to anchor the nation. The world respects those who respect themselves, who have decided, who it is that they are! Pakistan cannot continue to be a Muslim nation whose institutions are anything but. Republicanism is an Islamic value. Brotherhood and equality of Man, Freedom of conscionce, enterprise, of intellect, and freedom of choice are Islamic values.

The Saudi (imagine the depravity of a Muslim country, a monarchy, named after a family) have impressed upon the Indian their desire that India develop friendly (correct, would be a good start) relations with Pakistan. The Iranian has decided to bleed in Afghanistan. The new aspirants can no longer claim to suffer from ``terrorist`` or ``terrorism`` as they now have become partisans with no cloak to hide behind.

Sameer,

There need be no implications to Pakistan of India`s diplomatic efforts with Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia, if Pakistan stops viewing its relationships with these countries as zero-sum games being played against India.

i.e., Iran will continue to be as keen to improve ties with Pakistan in trade. investment, education and cultural exchanges, common security concerns, anti-narco-terrorism pacts, tourism, etc. But Iran will not be anti-India as a condition for these; and nor will Iran be anti-Pakistan as a condition for the same with India.

-Arun Gupta

Eklavya # 387: You can have several interpretations of religious stories. The best ones are those where interpretation is used to your advantage and to extract some useful message out of it, not the ones which build a better image of the characters involved in the story. The image building of the personalities involved does not help the long dead seers and ``good`` people. Their image has already been well established through belief systems. This is very common with Muslims too where most of the interpretations are used to justify the actions and sayings of revered people as if they xontinuously need any image building. Arun may be right in suggesting that mere image the goodness of good people is good enough to do good as Eklavya did with the image of Dronacharya.

Having watched another version of Mahabharata myself several years ago on PBS (by Peter Brooks and not the Indian one), I also felt pity for Eklavya and did not think of any message coming out if this story. Now just for the sake of trying to interpret in a useful way, here is a wild one, from a non-Hindu and not well-informed.

Dronacharya had achieved mastery in his skills, but not absolute perfection in all aspects of life. Absolute perfection is only associated with the highest one, God. This leaves the door open to further thinking and knowledge as banyan or palm trees need to keep growing to be attractive. Perfection ends the process of further learning. The religions must keep reinventing and reinterpretating themselves according to the needs of time and space. Eklavya, though achieving mastery of his skills by employing the image of master did cut off his thumb. You can not hold pen and write without thumb, and less thinking as a consequence. It means that in blind faith, there are both rewards and drawbacks. The reward being mastery of skills in this case and drawback being a less thinking. The acceptance of no perfection of ideas for all time and space is actually a hallmark of eastern philosophies. It is much less macho or ego-centric than claiming middle eastern where by virtue of speaking on behalf of God, a case for less than perfect can not be made easily. Notice small white circle in black a black circle in white in the well familiar yin-yang picture. That is what less than absolute perfect means in addition to intertwining of good and bad.

Now this is totally a wild interpretation but a benefitial one to you without lowering the respect for the seers of your faith. If you have chosen to live by your faith, then it is better to interpret various aspects of your faith, to be helpful in modern world than merely helping the image of religious elders of distant past. The number of followers in millions or billions is in itself good enough for their image.