Obsession with Borderline Issues

TAhmed 3213

Just my laziness, to move out or order some books on statistics. The statistics which is available on internet can give an idea, but not concretely.

I will put it later.

As far as transfer of wealth to Punjab. Mian Zahid Sarfaraz, had done the press conference, where he had alleged this with facts and figures, while Nawaz Sharif Government was toppled for first time.

Basically you have to see how money is moving. Roughly seventy percent of our budget (after debt financing) is spent on army. Who is the major beneficiary of this arrangement. Majority of army personnel. All the ordinance factories and its workers and other employment by Armed forces.

A very small amount of budget is transferred back to provinces according to population.

Out of total revenue of Sind collected by center (before octroi tax was also taken by center) roughly 4% of the total collection by Sind reaches back to it.

Is it appalling?

Although I agree with you regarding the poor people of all parts of Pakistan needs to be elevated.

But the dispensation in past has produced a significant political awakening in smaller provinces regarding their rights. But for the same reason majority of Punjab particularly upper Punjab although living in poor condition has been left behind, politically.

I would be very happy if leadership from Punjab arises which can join the rest of Pakistan for elevation of the plight of poor people of Pakistan.

There is no such thing in sight yet. (Although individually some leaders of Punjab are taking part in different struggle, but without much backing from Punjab)

As said earlier I will try to post statistics from Government site.

krashid #553 Please state the issue on which you would expect me to change my views: is it (a) the view that provinces should be abolished since they serve no purpose? or (b) that there has been a net transfer of wealth belonging to the smaller provinces to the Panjab? or (c) that there has been a net transfer of wealth belonging to other ethnic groups to Panjabis as an ethnic group? Then provide the facts to back your contentions. Then we can talk. Please dont expect me to say yes to your vague feelings that somehow Panjabis are benefitting at the expense of other people without being clear on either the issue or presenting any facts at all. As I said before, I think this is the wrong way to look at things: we should think in terms of how things can be improved for all Pakistanis, particularly the poorest ones regardless of what ethnic or religious group they belong to.

TAhmed 321#

Suppose sir the facts I have given can be substantiated by figures.

Would you reconsider your stand then.

If not I have no intention of continuing.

And backing off referred to local collection of taxes to be spent locally.

Shammi: Thanks for the kind words. I`ll be in touch.

krashid #549 I am sorry but your post is totally incomprehensible. E.g.

TAhmed #544

``Although you are backing of and rightly so.``

I assume you mean backing off from my statement that we should abolish provinces. Where do you see that in my previous post? Or is it something else I am backing off from?

``When you are talking about elimination of provinces, you have to presuppose that Pakistan is composed of only one cultural unit and is homogenous.``

Are the provinces homogenous? Is a district homogenous, with the interests of the landlord being the same as that of the bureaucrat or a peasant or a retiree from military service or a school child? Is even a small community of 20 people homogenous? Of course not. Why are you so hung up about provinces being homogenous?

``I am unable to provide figure.``

In the interests of a reasonable discussion, one should not make assertions without bothering to check the facts. Your ``rough idea`` is rubbish - get the facts or be honest and admit you do not have the facts.

``Can you tell me why Sind is demanding water distribution according to 1991 accord and Punjab is demanding according to 1994 (non existent accord).``

Can you tell me why you refer to Sind and Panjab as if they are individual persons? These are political boundaries.

``In a homogenous country how you are going to resolve. Do you think demography of Sind will be changed by abolition of provinces and more water will be coming to Sind. What means apart from slogan do you think is suitable to resolve this matter even after abolition of provinces.``

How does abolition of provinces create a homogenous country? The people dont change, and as I said no two people have the same interests. Issues of water sharing are legitimate issues, as are others.

``Sind says that police officers are from Punjab in Sind. While police officers are from Punjab in Punjab. What constitutional arrangement do you see to correct the situation.``

Do you have any figures on which you base your assumption that there are more police officers from the Punjab than Sind, or is this based on what ``Sind`` (which, as I mentioned, is not a person and as such does not ``say`` anything) says?

``What constitutional measure you want to put so that the army is more homogenous in its recruitment from different parts of Pakistan.``

Get the figures, first, then talk to me about homogenous.

``Instead of abolishing provinces, Would`nt it better to do more justice to different regions and call them administrative provinces.``

Once again, justice is done to people, not to political entities. Before replying, sit and think a bit on what I am trying to get into your head.

``Instead of treating the disease, you just want to abolish provinces for no reason.``

I explained to you what the disease was and the treatment, and that provinces were irrelevant to solving it. You did not do me the courtesy of trying to understand what I was trying to tell you. I am sorry, but from previous interactions, I had expected something more intelligent from you.

Sameer JB#

The question is not of federal structure.

The question is of federating units.

What arrangement is feasible which can keep all federating units reasonably happy.

The example of Bengal is useless, because they already showed that it was a gross injustice and fought for independence. Do you think there was any other reason basically apart from economics which led them to this drastic action.

Pakistan resolution was basically a union of federating units.

And the demand of smaller provinces are to leave only three areas to Federal structure. Defense, Currency and Foreign Affairs.

The Federal structure is trying to collect as much money from units as possible. Even the simple octroi tax (like toll booth in New York) is now collected by Federal Structure in Pakistan.

Why should the small units continue to pay Bhatta is beyond my comprehension.

The only solution is a reasonable arrangement among different parts of Pakistan to make it more equitable.

Anything short of that is only going to prolong suffering of all of Pakistanis.

I read daily news about illegal immigrants mostly from Gujrat, Gujranwala and Lahore being caught. It only depicts situation in Punjab is also bad.

There is no solution to it. Either a more just arrangement or Seperation so that each unit devotes its energy to its own people.

TAhmed #544

Although you are backing of and rightly so.

When you are talking about elimination of provinces, you have to presuppose that Pakistan is composed of only one cultural unit and is homogenous.

I am unable to provide figure. But to give you a rough idea. Baluchistan is the biggest mineral producer including Sui gas. Karachi has the highest industrial output. Most of the dams are located in NWFP. Although Punjab is the largest agriculture producer, but Sind is not far behind.

Can you tell me why Sind is demanding water distribution according to 1991 accord and Punjab is demanding according to 1994 (non existent accord).

In a homogenous country how you are going to resolve. Do you think demography of Sind will be changed by abolition of provinces and more water will be coming to Sind.

What means apart from slogan do you think is suitable to resolve this matter even after abolition of provinces.

Sind says that police officers are from Punjab in Sind. While police officers are from Punjab in Punjab. What constitutional arrangement do you see to correct the situation.

What constitutional measure you want to put so that the army is more homogenous in its recruitment from different parts of Pakistan.

Instead of abolishing provinces, Would`nt it better to do more justice to different regions and call them administrative provinces.

Once the justice is there, it won`t matter much if you call provinces tehsil or division or other administrative unit.

Instead of treating the disease, you just want to abolish provinces for no reason.

All elections, past and present, are won by electioneering. No reason to get excited about a particular election, held in 1939, 1946, 1970, 1987 or any future election.

Here is a quote from an article by Ishtiaq Ahmed, I found at http://sangat.org

Role of Islam, National Identity and Secular Aspirations

Ishtiaq Ahmed

Department of Political Science

Stockholm University

Role of Islam in the legitimization of Muslim Nationalism

The broad contours of the Pakistani national identity were more or less spelt out in the wake of the events which unfolded rapidly after the Lahore Resolution of 1940. The Muslim League rejected the Indian National Congress`s stand that all Indians, irrespective of their religious and cultural affiliations, constituted a composite, territorial, secular nation. The Muslim League asserted instead that Indian Muslims were a distinct nation by virtue of their religious faith and culture. Further, that the political goal of such a nation was to work towards some sort of a separate political entity in the subcontinent. Consequently it launched various initiatives to expand its support base among the Muslims. It devised a broad rather than a narrow definition of a Muslim: all those who had entered Islam as their religion in the census records were accepted as members. Thus persons belonging to the various Sunni and Shia sub-sects, the Ahmadiyya community, the various regional forces and linguistic nationalities, and even Muslims of Marxist inclination were admitted as members and activists.

[In the crucial 1945-46 election campaign, the Muslim League relied heavily upon Islamic appeals to mobilize popular support for the Pakistan scheme. Young students from the United Provinces and Punjab joined efforts with ulama and pirs to popularize the idea of Pakistan. Hindus and Sikhs were condemned as exploiters and demonized as infidels. Wild promises were made of restoring the glory of Islam In The Future Muslim State. The stranglehold of moneylenders was to be broken and a social order based on Islamic social justice was to be realized. Muslims who did not support the demand for Pakistan were denounced as renegades to Islam. In some cases, fatwas were also issued to the effect that Muslims who opposed the creation of Pakistan were to be denied a proper Islamic burial. These measures were extremely effective and the Muslim voters gave a clear verdict in favor of Pakistan.] Thus from the very onset, the Pakistan scheme was popularized under heavy debt to Islam. Just to put the record straight, the Hindu Mahasabha, RSS, the Akali Dal, the Singh Sabha, especially its stalwarts such as Master Tara Singh, and even sections of Congress were involved in intensifying the communal divide.

To cut a very long story short, after Jinnah gave the call for direct action on 29 July 1946, communal riots broke out in Calcutta on 16 August. At that time Bengal was under a Muslim League government headed by Hussain Shaheed Suhrawardy. The Great Calcutta Killings of August 1946 became a contagion. In Noakhali Muslims attacked Hindus with great brutality. A Hindu reaction in Bihar proved even more ferocious and gory. Muslims were hunted down and killed in the hundreds. In the spring of 1947 the Muslim League started its `direct action` in Punjab. It soon degenerated into communal riots. It ended in the infamous ethnic cleansing of Punjab. The British Government in the announcement of 3 June 1947 conceded the partition of India, Bengal and Punjab.

The forced migration, which ensued inevitably, meant that some 14-17 million Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs crossed the India-Pakistan border in either direction. More than one million lost their lives. Some 200,000 women were abducted. Cases of rape and other grievous indignities were counted in the thousands. Ethnic cleansing was almost complete in Punjab. The trauma of partition inevitably sowed seeds of hatred and mistrust between the two countries and their peoples.

It is not surprising that after such a cataclysmal rupture with the rest of India, Pakistan could not simply assert its national identity as a mere variant of India.

dost-mittar: I did not complete the article you mentioned. I realized that I do not know much about economics to write an article. Whatever, I thought of novel approach to revive Pakistani economy has been already mentioned in my posts. Basically, I wanted to stress of Pakistanis religion related spendings. I was going to argue for as much as one billion dollars per year to be part of consumer spender to boost economy instead of spending on hajj, umrah and qurbani, none of which is farz in Islam. This is the main reason for our continuous lower saving rate even when India was 20 percent poorer than Pakistanis (most of last 53 years, according to per capita income).

Had I written that article, I might have been charged again for religion bashing in the name of revival of economy.

Krashid:

[And although Punjab might agree to abolition of provinces but will not agree to local collection of revenue to be spent locally.]

That kind of equation is not practiced anywhere in the world. In USA, only state taxes are fully spend on the state whereas federal taxes are disbursed after taking care of federal expenses. If the federal taxes are to be disbursed on population basis, Punjab in Pakistan and California in USA do get lion share of federal distribution. There is small amount of federal money both in USA and Pakistan that is disbursed to the needy satates or provinces in order to elevate the standard of poor states (as in the case of Mississippi and Alabama).

Pakistan needs to clearly distinguish taxes as federal and provincial. The provincial are to be spend on provinces but Karachi will still be unhappy if their money goes to Tharparker or Mirpur Khas. The solution is division of provincial taxes as provincial and city taxes. What we really need is a fair system and fair laws. Similarly deficit financing should not be the sole headache of federal government.

Should Karnatka and Tamil Nadu demand most of the money earned in IT sector to spend on those two sataes only? It was the same problem between Bangladesh and Pakistan before 1971. Their share of revenue was 19 percent and demand was for 56 percent plus the revenues from Jute export. They did not want to hear export related activities and foreign exchange earned to be federal income, because they spent money for generating foreign exchange. There was no way they could be given 56 percent of federal revenue. Federal government could simply used up all the revenues in defense, administration and repayment of loans and leave may be 3-4 percent for provinces. In that case they could give 56 percent of the 4 percent to Bangladesh. Pakistan was not cheating and I guess still not cheating big time as Karachi or smaller provinces claim. Look at Bangladesh GDP and per capita income, it is much less than Pakistan. Pakistanis do not go to Bangladesh to find work at fisheries, they come to Karachi. I guarentee you if (God forbid) any smaller province of Pakistan is independent of federal government, they will be poorer than now. How much revenues Balochi, NWFP or Sindhi cities excluding Karachi generate? Many cities will not have money to run city administration. Should the oil producing provinces of OPEC countries demand all the revenues from exporting oil? Jeddah, Mecca and Medina will be back to deserts with few dates trees.

The relationship between provinces is like a barter system. If NWFP wants royalty on energy and taxes from tobacco, they will have to pay more for wheat and perhaps no mangoes and babnana from Sindh or Punjab.

Re: Tahmed321 #544

``it is time we forgot about these stupid ethnic, religious and other distinctions and started seeing all people as brothers and sisters ``

Bravo! Well said. BTW, Tahmed321, do you happen to live close to Washington DC? Say within a couple of hours driving distance? If so, I would definitely like to meet you one day in person. If you feel more comfortable writing me directly, my email address is shammi@onebox.com. Thank you.

krashid #542 You seem to think that Panjab beneficiary of taxes and government income generated in other provinces. I am not too sure. I have not looked at the figures, and so would appreciate the source of your beliefs. Also, does Panjab include Islamabad in your calculations, and if so how is the situation like with Panjab sans Islamabad?

In any case, this is not the right way to look at things, and just because I am a Panjabi does not mean that you should think I care where Panjab comes out in all this - it is time we forgot about these stupid ethnic, religious and other distinctions and started seeing all people as brothers and sisters (unless an individual is proven guilty in which case whether the rascal is a Panjabi or a Sindhi or a Christian or a Muslim does not matter).

The questions to ask are (a) what activities should the federal government perform vs. the local government vs. the private sector vs. NGOs); (b) How does one set up an incentives and controls structure to make sure that all parties (govt, private sector, NGOs) earn through honest work, not simply due to being in a privileged position (as is the case with govt officials at all levels in all provinces)?

If these questions are answered in a sensible manner and based on some well-understood lessons learnt across the world the past 50 years, I can assure you that the question of inter-regional transfers will become totally irrelevant to the discussion. The question would be: How does one give people the incentive to be creative and enterprising and hard-working.

krashid #541

``If that is so instead of sending them to me, you come to me. I know the treatment of schizophreania better than treating poverty and oppressed state.``

Shukriya janab,

Neem hakim khatraye jaan!! We our our own oujha and jadugar here. I will send them also to you. Together you all can open a big dukaan.

TAhmed 321 #534

Omar Asghar in a recent interview categorically denied giving any power to levy taxes by local bodies.

I agree with you regarding abolition of provinces altogether.

The situation on ground or current situation in Pakistan does not make it possible.

I am not mentioning anti Government forces.

I am talking about meeting of IRSA and other Government bodies where provinces are putting their grievances against center.

Moreover abolition of provinces with local collection of revenue will be disastrous for Punjab. And although Punjab might agree to abolition of provinces but will not agree to local collection of revenue to be spent locally.

As Baluchistan is full of minerals. Karachi has port and Sind agriculture. NWFP demands royalty of dams which are located mostly in NWFP.

With the current power structure in Pakistan, the best thing which can work out and everybody will be happy is work out a solution among provinces.

Smaller provinces will not agree to abolition of provinces as that is their only forum of grievances. And Punjab will not agree to local collection of revenue to be spent locally as it will have very negative impact on its economy.

Can you agree Punjab on local collection of revenue to be spent locally? If you can do so, I will assure of abolition of provinces.

friend #537

Oh I thought not only India is the world`s largest democracy, but is brimming with secularists and democrats.

If that is so instead of sending them to me, you come to me. I know the treatment of schizophreania better than treating poverty and oppressed state.

Harimau #538

Is your post directed against anal-retentive Pakistani Muslim TAhmed 321 or anal-retentive Indian Muslim Studebaker.

You have not clarified.