Obsession with Borderline Issues

Harimau (#400) :

Thanks for satisfying my curiosity.

You cite the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission, The idea of the Commission was to acknowledge the truth and thereby help in a reconciliation.

Do you think your writings on Chowk are helping achieve a similar goal ? Why would ``Islamic thugs`` following a ``barbaric religion`` be interested in truth or reconciliation ? I mean that truth and reconciliation are possible only when you acknowledge a degree of virtue and humanity in your adversary.

I think that there is no point in arguing with you about your beliefs, they do not seem to be open to revision. What I am suggesting is to you is that your methods are working against your stated goal. You should change it for selfish reasons. A change in your discourse will help in my selfish goal of being able to have civil discussion (and disagreement) on Chowk.

-Arun the I.

macgupta #394

Ref: Drona Charya,

Drona in Mahabharata comes out as a rather pitiable character. He initially attempts to earn living as a traditional gurukul teacher in a forest, living only of “dakshina – offering” from students. When he finds that his earning is not enough to guarantee even basic needs of his only child, Ashwathama, he approaches his school friend Drupad, who is now king. Drupad insults him. Drona now decides to sell his skills as teacher to highest bidder, rich Kauravas, get rich and earn all comforts for his only child. He accepts students only from his employer, Kauravas and their royal families. He not only rejects students like Karna and Eklavaya, but tries to make sure that his own students always come out on top. However, he is not a mercenary. Once he sold his loyalty to Kauravas, he remained loyal to them till end.

Drona’s story is more like a tragedy where you can sense his desperation and final break down when he accepts the employment as a teacher. In some of the writings, he is identified as the first teacher who taught for a salary.

I agree with you that Mahabarata appears to be a statement of people life as it actually happened rather than like Ramayana where everything is either total black or pure white.

Karna, Krishan, Arjun and Ashwathama appear to be among the few characters who have relatively positive attributes.

Regards

PS: Drona and Ashwathama are worthy of an article. You should write!

Ref: ylh #300

You tell Akash

``Are you the one who had earlier told me on another board that I didnot know enough History, and that Jinnah was a Parsi?

You are pathetically devoid of knowledge.``

YLH,

You are pathetically in delusion of your knowledge. Few months back, you were the one claiming that all Prime Ministers of India were Brahmins and when given a long list of non-brahmin PMs you retreated in shell. You were touting J N Mondal and when told that he, with much disappointment, had to resign and move to In dia, went into hiding.

It just shows that acceptance criteria in US schools is not very stringent.

Reply #: 398 shammi

[``Tahmed321:

If only somehow those unemployed men with picks and shovels that you speak about could be sent to India, while leaving any AK-47s behind. Reliance Infocom is spending $7.7 bn digging roads to build a 60,000 km high bandwith optical fibre network linking 167 cities in India with fibre leading to every house. There is a tremendous need for construction labor laying the pipes.``]

Why can`t Reliance Infocom hire from the one billion bhooka nanga Indians? We know you guys are severely malnourished but surely you can pick up the shovel and dig?

Has Reliance Infocom figured out how to replace your open sewers with optical fiber cables? (Talk about priorities). Hopefully, all Indians will get the optical fiber network before they die of Bubonic Plague or cholera or some other such disease which they catch from their open air toilets.

What are the implications, from Pakistan’s perspective, of warming up relationship between India and Islamic world. How will US react to Indian warming up relationship with Iran or is it at the behest of US to stop Chinese influence in the region? At the same time, in this geo-political reallignment, Putin is trying to create an alliance between Russia, China and India. What it means for Pakistan? How should Pakistan react? Should we follow the recommendations of recently concluded Deoband conference?

The editorial of Hindu daily, dated Thursday, April 12, 2001 sheds some light on the Indian intention:

THE PRIME Minister, Mr. Atal Behari Vajpayee`s on-going visit to the Islamic Republic of Iran brings into bold relief one of the more exciting aspects of India`s current foreign policy - a conscious effort to engage the key nations of the Islamic world. Mr. Vajpayee`s visit to Iran follows the fruitful trip to Saudi Arabia by the External Affairs Minister, Mr. Jaswant Singh, in January - the first ever by an Indian Foreign Minister since Independence. The Union Home Minister, Mr. L. K. Advani, will set out one of these days to Turkey, which could also turn out to be a politically productive journey.

The wooing of these three significant West Asian nations at the highest political level in such a short time span highlights the intensity of the current Indian political thrust towards the Islamic world. It also reveals the breadth of the diplomatic blitzkrieg, for no three countries could be as divergent ideologically as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Turkey.

The Indian pas de deux with Iran, Turkey and Saudi Arabia is only one small slice of the Indian rediscovery of the Islamic world stretching from the Maghreb on the western fringes to Indonesia and Malaysia on the eastern edge. President Boutefleka of Algeria was the chief guest at this year`s Republic Day celebrations; Mr. Vajpayee has recently been in Jakarta and he will travel to Kuala Lumpur in the coming weeks. There has been an unending stream of other visitors from Arab and Islamic nations to India in the last few months, and Mr. Jaswant Singh has traveled to many Arab nations including such important ones as Egypt and Syria recently. Never before has Indian diplomacy seen such an expansive engagement with the Islamic world.

That this deliberate cultivation of the Islamic world should come from a Government in New Delhi widely viewed in the world as Hindu nationalist is perhaps one of the more interesting ironies of India`s external relations. There is no question that the foundation for India`s activism in West Asia was laid during Mr. Narasimha Rao`s tenure as Prime Minister. Driven by the imperatives of the post-Cold War world and the requirements of internal economic reform, the Rao Government began the reorientation of Indian diplomacy towards the Islamic nations. The Vajpayee Government, in the last three years, has given it a robustness that was badly needed.

Shaking off the past ideological prejudice addresses only one half of India`s problem in dealing with the Islamic world. The other half relates to India`s past defensiveness in relation to those espousing ideological causes in West Asia. India is beginning to appreciate that even those who wear the most tinted religious glasses in the Islamic world have a powerful streak of pragmatism that places national interest above ideology.

A second important transition in Indian policy is on the economic front - from the mercantilism of the past to the quest for deeper economic integration. In the past, India`s commercial policy towards the region had two elements - figuring out the best possible deals on oil purchases and counting the value of remittances from Indian expatriate labor in the Gulf. India is now talking about ``energy security`` that looks beyond buyer- seller relationships to a long-term integration of the hydrocarbon sectors and pipelines that calls for more enduring energy linkages. More fundamentally, India has begun to appreciate that peace and prosperity in the Gulf and the Subcontinent are inextricably intertwined.

Finally, the biggest transition has been India`s handling of the Pakistan factor in dealing with the Islamic world. In the past, India was peeved and put off by those countries that supported Pakistan in its conflicts with India, in particular over Kashmir. India has shunned for decades those nations which it saw as pro- Pakistan. For example, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Iran were all seen earlier as being too close to Pakistan. But today, India is reaching out to these nations without a reference to the Pakistan factor.

India`s recent engagement of the Islamic world has often been misrepresented as a strategy to cut Pakistan off from its traditional allies and friends. That is farthest from the truth. What India is trying to do is transcend the Pakistan question and find ways to build mutually beneficial political and economic relationships with key Islamic states.

India no longer objects to the deep ties between Pakistan on the one hand and states such as Saudi Arabia and Turkey on the other. But India believes there is enough political and economic business that it can do with these countries without demanding an end to their ties with Pakistan. This new self-assurance and pragmatism are likely to bring significant strategic dividends to India in its engagement of the Islamic world.

Ikram Ullah writes in “The new strategic partnership” published in today’s edition of The Nation:

The hallmark of Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee`s recent four-day visit to Tehran is the emergence of a strategic partnership between the two countries. This has not happened suddenly. India`s Foreign Minister visited Tehran last year to initiate necessary spadework for this breakthrough. Iran`s President Muhammad Khatami visited Moscow last month to get Russia involved in a new strategic alliance to undermine the global grip of the sole superpower, the USA.

Because of the common disapproval of Afghanistan`s Taliban government by India, Iran, Russia and China, the fulfillment of the Indian design was made easier, more so by the open US hostility towards the Taliban in Afghanistan. While the Deoband Conference was being held in Pakistan, aimed at the unification of the Umma against anti-Islam forces, Vajpayee declared India`s commitment to peaceful and cooperative relations with Pakistan, as he overflew Pakistani air space en route to Iran.

Welcoming him, Iranian Foreign Minister Kamal Kharazi declared that Pakistan must work with Tehran and New Delhi to resolve the Afghanistan situation. As if it was not disturbing enough to involve New Delhi in Afghan affairs, Kharazi went on to say: ``Experience has proven the Afghan crisis had no military solution and that the warring sides in Afghanistan should sit down at the negotiating table``.

One has to wait before determination of the pious hope of the Chief Executive. Afghanistan is under UN sanctions. USA continues to deny recognition to the Taliban, which makes Rabbani the official Government, while the OIC sits on the fence. The international community`s opposition to the Taliban is mounting. Now comes the Tehran Declaration, in which our brotherly Muslim neighbour Iran has openly joined camp with India and Russia, not only against the Taliban, but also Pakistan. This new development is bound to impinge on Pakistan`s strategic and national security requirements. Clouds are gathering on Pakistan`s strategic horizon.

Vajpayee`s visit is only a small part of a storm blowing against Pakistan`s ultimate future as a sovereign state.

Dr. Manzur Ejaz writes in “Emerging Geo-Political Scene in Asia” published in todays edition of The News:

Obviously, India can be a major beneficiary if Sino-US trade relations are severed and another cold war gets underway. India`s economic gains for substituting China for supplying goods to the US are limited due its endemic production bottlenecks. Furthermore, India has its own aspirations to be recognized as a major world power. Recently published intelligence reports have shown that the US has reservations and concerns over the Indian ambitions. Nonetheless, under the present circumstances, the US has no choice but to prop up India for regional balancing even if, for now, it keeps a semblance of normalcy in its relations with China. Eventually, Sino-US rivalry on control over East Asia is inevitable and the Chinese belief of an unavoidable war may be much more realistic than recognized presently.

In this fast developing geopolitical scenario in Asia, Pakistan`s position does not appear to be enviable. Pakistan`s economic interests are closely linked with the US and other western powers while its geo-strategic goals are better severed by aligning with China. If US contradiction with China intensifies, Pakistan may not have much room to maneuver. It cannot afford to alienate the US because of reliance on financial assistance provided by US dominated international agencies and it can ill afford distancing itself from China because of defense needs. Pakistan will be in double jeopardy with not much to fall back on.

Ref macgupta #: 388

[Just idle curiousity, really.]

Why does South Africa have a Truth and Reconciliation Commission? So that they can illuminate the dark deeds of the apartheid regime so it will never happen again.

What do you see happening? Islamic thugs, supposedly well-educated and living in the liberal West, which they lose no time in condemning while enjoying the sizeable income and personal security it affords them, actually continue to support the Taliban and even think they should not apologize to Bangladesh for their atrocities.

Why should I not fling their atrocities in their face every chance I get? Why should I not ridicule their prophet for his revelations regarding kafirs or his personal sexual proclivities? Isn`t religion supposed to teach you moral behavior? How can anyone have sex with a 9-year-old? How can anyone marry the widow his nephew? Weren`t there any other eligible males in all of Arabia? Did Muhammed have to take care of everyone`s needs personally? Or was he taking care of his sexual needs first?

Why don`t the Islamic thugs respond with rebuttals? Because, they CANNOT!

They follow a barbaric religion and claim they are civilized. No f * * *ing way!

Re: Harimau #122

Your comment, ``Islam is evil``, is utterly irresponsible, and has no other intention but to hurt the sentiments of people other you. I do wish that you outgrow this childishness one day.

Tahmed321:

If only somehow those unemployed men with picks and shovels that you speak about could be sent to India, while leaving any AK-47s behind. Reliance Infocom is spending $7.7 bn digging roads to build a 60,000 km high bandwith optical fibre network linking 167 cities in India with fibre leading to every house. There is a tremendous need for construction labor laying the pipes.

Ciao

Zahra#

Sorry for :-( I took your post as this.

Religious teachings is also one aspect knowledge.

And your experience with religious people has been good. And example KRashid gave of people can be called hooliganism and not religious.

So I responded that according to democratic principles religious knowledge is one aspect of knowledge and this is good thing.

But when this knowledge reaches the stage of fascism when all other knowledge are considered useless and wrong. Moreover this concept is enforced by force.

But since force (sword) alone cannot take care of this thing. For example the belief that man has not yet reached the moon. So there is religious edict or Fatwa to enforce it. Because Fatwa can be equated with God`s will or intent theoretically.

Compare that to patriotism where the will is imposed with the help of force, but there is no religious sanctity to it. For example all people justifying action of Pakistan in East Pakistan are talking with the perspective of Patriotism with the force (sword) behind them.

But since this has no religious sanctity, a person can take stand against it especially when he is in USA.

I gave example of Fatwa regarding Napolean and Printing of Quran on printing press to show that, Fatwa is not God`s will. Neither is God sending Wahi so that we know whether Fatwa is right or wrong. What mechanism we have in place to believe in the truthfulness of Fatwa. There should be some mechanism of accountability, because of the sanctity of Fatwa in people`s eyes.

I think I am little more clear.

Or may be not. :-)

Regards.

Temporal #382

Looks like you are right.

This kind of rhetoric is something new for me.

And I am realizing the sage whether Mahajerzada (or you)

Pehley Insaan Phir Kuch Aur.

Regards.

Syudebaker #376

Agreed.

But still those remarks like smelly, dirty Muslim etc are out of question.

With ablution five times a day. And bathing on a regular basis.

Cleanliness for hairs etc.

If a person is Muslim and is not clean, I think there is something wrong.

As far as four wives or 10 or 1000. The question is sex needs to be a documented and legal thing.

Rather than ``Chori Chupe Aashnai``.

By the way how many Muslims have or can afford more than one wife.

Picked this up on the net :

Now to deal with the issue of Dronacharya and Eklavya. First, Eklavya held Dronacharya in very high esteem. So much so that when Dronacharya refused to teach Eklavya, the latter made a clay statue of the for- mer. This was sufficient for Eklavya to receive the inspiration that was needed to acquire the skills. Second, the episode indicates the strong guru-shisha (teacher-student) bond that existed then. When Dronacha- rya asked for his dhiksha, Eklavya gave it without hesitation, knowing fully well that he will not be able to use the skills that he acquired with such great ef- forts. The whole incident does put Dronacharya in bad light - but what is forgotten is that Eklavya comes out of it magnificently. It is this lesson that is obscured when we con-centrate on Dronacharya and not Eklavya.

Ekalavya :

The Mahabharata is most emphatically not a book about idealized role models. (The Ramayana is.)

I believe there are traditions that it is not to be kept in the home, and is meant to be read by people with mature, stable minds only.

Every character in the story is complete with good side and bad. Duryodhana is the ``villain`` of the piece, in modern parlance, but as he is dying, he makes a defiant speech to Krishna and the Pandavas, and the devas shower flowers on him from heaven, recognizing his indomitable spirit.

-Arun the I

Ref macgupta #: 388

[Harimau :

A question -- well, before the question, an assumption, that you believe you are not wasting your time on chowk. Now the question -- what do you think you are achieving ? Would your style of discourse have the effect you desire on someone like you ? If not why do you think it will work on everyone else ?]

I am not going to let these feeble-brained idiots get away with making false statements about the methods of Islam. Let them admit to their crimes. Let them proclaim loudly this is what Islam is all about. But so long as these guys continue to deny history, current events and reality, I intend to force-feed them the truth. Chowk editors have the right -- which they have exercised liberally every time I responded to Prof. Bilal Ahmad -- to censor my post but that only means that even they cannot handle the truth about Islamic thuggery. I know they prefer Sadhana, headshrinker (who goes off his rocker periodically and descends into depraved obscenity), MaheshG and a host of other apologists but I am going to proclaim the truth. Have these people refuted ONE SINGLE SOLITARY fact I have posted here? Of course not, because even Muslim historians have admitted to the atrocities of the thugs.

I don`t expect to convert anyone to my viewpoint but I intend to exercise my free-speech rights.

Is that a satisfactory answer or should I start posting that Islamic rule is the best thing that happened to India to satisfy you or Farzana?

Ref Studebaker #: 375

[There is no compulsion in religion,surah Al Kafiroun]

So what WAS the compulsion in destroying statues?

[Iam just as happy that he is a knowledgeable Hindu as i would be if he was a knowledgeable MUSLIM.]

Oh, he becomes KNOWLEDGEABLE because he said something nice about Muhammed? Did he mention Ayesha, the 9-year-old bride in that article?

[LOOKS LIKE THAT CASTIST PRIDE HAS NOT YET RUBBED OFF AFTER CLEANING YOUR OWN sh!t ,TOILET,cleaning your own dirt,laundry & garbage without some dalit doing for you .]

My pride is in not having left the religion of my ancestors either for money or for fear of death -- which is more than you can ever say.

[For why would you bring sh!t about how afghan added x number of muslims 100 yrs ago .]

So that you can`t try to bullshit your way through here by saying there were voluntary converts from Hinduism to Islam. No way!

Just like most of you were denying that the Muslim rulers destroyed every single shrine in Northern India. The True Face of Islam was clearly seen in Jan 2001 when the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, on the advice of mullahs, destroyed the Bamiyan Buddhas. So, you can get out of your denial phase and just say, ``Yes, that is what we did and that is what we will do if we get another chance.`` Have the b *lls to come out and say that instead of saying how wonderful all your sufis were and how you all left Hinduism because the Dalits were treated so badly. Then you were all Dalits in which case at least you should stop pretending you were Khatris, Central Asian princes, direct descendants of Muhammed or some other camel-riding freak from Arabia or Central Asia.

Eklavya # 387

``I sometimes wonder if Yudhisthar knew about what Dronacharya did to Eklavya. And if he did, how could he not have objected? Or, was he too deferential to his guru?``

Yudhisthar was no angel either. Remember how he was an accomplice in Krishna`s plot to have Dronacharya killed through false rumors that Ashwasthama (Dronacharya`s son) has died?