Obsession with Borderline Issues

Studebaker #476

You don`t know what Indian Muslims are supposed to say?

I know even in one year on this forum what you are supposed to say.

Islam is bad, Muhammed PBUH is worst human, Pakistanis are Jihadis and need to be killed, Kashmiris have no rights. Hinduism is good. Demolition of Babri Mosque is Indian ideal, beef eating is bad, drinking is good. These are just a few glimpses.

And if you don`t say it, you are not a citizen of world`s largest democracy:-), and are not secular:-) and in no way a democrat:-) he...he...he..

Friend #478

See the question of MaheshG to Studebaker for elucidation.

MaheshG #479

Are you joking.

Or if you are asking in seriousness.

Don`t you see burning of Koran, Killing of Kashmiris, Bombay riots, massacre of Muslims, demolition of Babri mosques.

Is Saadgi Pe Kaun Naa Mur Jaye Aye Khuda.

Karte Hain Qatl Aur Haath Mein Talwar Bhi Nahin.

:-), :-)

Harimau #481

Yes all the authentic information comes from Ahl-e-Kitab.

Whether they are Muslims or Christians.

The information coming from democrats:-) and secularist:-) is highly unreliable.

Guess why?

Some words defined after reading the pearls of wisdom uttered here:)

Keen intellect: “get your mind out of the gutter”

Rationality: “If you cut off any more of your dick, you will have to squat to pee”

Eclectic: “Personally, I thought it was camel-dung”

Empathy: “Krashid, Ali1, Urstruly: Farzana says you have a mind full of pigeon-crap”

Enlightenment: “They follow a barbaric religion and claim they are civilized. No f***ing way!”

Lilliputs: All of us who do not swallow the above-mentioned crap.

So stay right here, Gulliver…wouldn’t dream of sending you out of Chowk covered in shame. Let the Lilliputs climb all over you. Give us a few more laughs.

Sameer (#446):

[“Indian and Pakistani leaders need to drink soma and then discuss bilateral issues.”]

I would say it is a waste of alcohol. The nasha is always temporary and god knows what happens after the hangover. Our leaders are too drunk on power, and that is the only high they get. I am afraid the rhetoric you talk about is not relegated to Chowk, it is there in even normal situations. Let me give you the example of a conversation between my khaala and mother. My aunt had migrated to Pakistan (now moved further to the land of the truly pure – Amreeka!) and on one such visit she showed us pictures taken at Murree. I could see a distinct swagger as she said, “It is just like Kashmir.” My mother promptly replied, “Then why do you people want Kashmir?”

There is just too much simmering beneath the surface. One day I shall explore it.

Neptune (#443):

[“You must be cuckoo! Tamil non-veg cooking is one of the best in India.”]

Look, technically TN is considered vegetarian. I am aware of Chettinad cuisine, of course. Do I trace some regional pride here?? As for being cuckoo, well…do Tamilians eat those as well?

Friend (#466):

[“no one here is defending the custom of child marriage, devadasi etc. WHY do you feel compelled to defend prophet marrying a 6 year old and comsumating the marriage? He was prophet, and was supposed to show the path to others. If you have to justify his actions because “illicit devar-bhabhi, jija-Sali relationsahips” happen even today than what is the difference between him and us.”]

I am not defending the Prophet; if anything, my post (#440) would probably be considered blasphemous by rabid Muslims. However, there have been long-winded arguments about child marriage, devadasis etc being a necessity at one time. And if I did comment on these, it is with disgust that they still exist. Mind you, I said “in my country” and did not single out a religious community. As regards whether the Prophet ought to show the way to others, for me religion and the ‘great souls’ are palpably human. I also suspect that hedonism was more the order of the day at that time. What I do not like is the tone adopted to bring down not just the religion but also its practitioners.

[“(… Did the Prophet have to take care of everyone’s need personally? No, I think he delegated some, which is why Islam has so many Imams. Are they one too many for you to handle? As for taking care of his sexual needs first, I assume that the angel Gabriel did

some whispering in the Prophet’s ears, and since Islam has a deep respect for Christianity, the aural region assumes great significance. …)

I miss being is same school with you. It would have been fun!!”]

Well, if I were to set aside the sarcasm, I doubt it would have been much fun. I was the shy one…and, yes, it was a girl’s only institution where we said “Hail Mary” every morning. It remains the only prayer I remember fully.

Dost-mittar (#472):

[“As regards you, I doubt if you are an extremist. An extremist muslim who does not eat beef and has a vegetarian mother? Na, you must be part of the smallest minority in India. From your posts, it would appear that your pride has been hurt by recent experiences but you are not much more of a muslim than I am a hindu, though we both have our identities. BTW, when I talk about my identity, it does not end with Mohammad Bin Qassim`s entry to Sindh. I am equally proud of the Urdu poetry, Mughalai food, Taj and other architectural wonders that enriched India during the Muslim period. And truth be told, I am also proud of the British colonial heritage: the modern education system, parliamentary democracy, justice and administrative system, railways and cities such as Lutyen`s Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta, Madras and those wonderful hill stations.”]

I agree with the latter part of what I have quoted from your post. I cannot, however, say that I am proud about anything one is born with or as; I do believe that what one strives to achieve in whatever limited way is of far greater significance to our own lives, even if not to others. While I can preen about what you said earlier, I think that one cannot use one’s eating habits as an excuse. I was merely trying to fight against stereotypes when I talked about it. Hitler was a vegetarian, as we all know.

Btw, I have not disputed the fact that the kalima is recited and the khatna done during conversion to Islam. I am glad you at least try to see that I am not just a Muslim. Yes, my pride has been hurt by recent events, and as I said, it isn’t historical veracity that bothers me, but contemporary reality. I am an individualist, and there are aspects of my personality and reactions that may be deemed ‘extreme’ by some. Even if I am reacting ‘personally’ to some things, it is with the knowledge of the social structure and parameters that have created it.

In fact, I would like to quote Layman’s post (#459) in full to say that this is what I believe…

[“Okay folks, by now everyone knows that both Hindus and Muslims have practices in the past that would not stand up to today`s moral standards - be it Sati or child marriage or multiple wives or whatever - there is no point in justifying or rationalizing them.

Why don`t we just acknowledge the defects of the past and move on? What is more important is that we do not continue to follow these practices and justify them blindly in the name of religion.”]

Shima (#460 to Studebaker):

[“There is a heaven and hell difference between you and Farzana. She is in India and I hope she is fighting for her rights there. She makes lot of sense lot of times while you

make none.”]

While I graciously accept your kind words, I would like to say a few things. Just as we cannot say all Pakistanis are alike, or all Hindus are alike, so also it cannot be assumed that all Indian Muslims are alike. I have not been following Studebaker’s posts (okay, take ‘following’ to be a pun!) regularly, but of the little I have seen, I do not think our experiences have been anywhere near similar. It is possible that his suffering/sensibilities have had a greater impact on him. What he says is most certainly not always right, but I think he has a right to say it. I also see no reason why he should only respond to the bleating of one individual here, when you yourself believe that the person is in effect worthless of attention.

You further tell Studebaker:[“You mentioned once that you are in NH. I wonder with your kind of writing skill what job you have landed in your adopted country! I did not mean to be hurtful, but I lost patience reading all your garbage, and try to make some meaning out of it. Take care, get rid of your anger, say one, two, three.......”]

I shall not say that you are being patronizing, but unfortunately some of us with smart copy and a mere felicity with words manage to get away with a lot more. I recall his mentioning the linguistic confusion he faced, and one must see it in that perspective. I would like to state that I would have defended this aspect of discomfort with the language irrespective of which religion the person belonged to. I am venturing to respond to his post to you… and I hope you will take what I have just said in the right spirit.

Studebaker (#476 response to shima):

[I agree ,i say somthing just playing devils advocate or argument sake.You tell me what a minority (muslim) from India is suppose to say in your view.Imagine the most vivid & close Indian muslim in india if you went to school in India & lucky enough to have had a

fortunate indian muslim to have gone to the high class school that you went to.This thread will go underground ,if you are interested plz post the view of indian muslim as if you were a writer of a film script if you can imagine .Let me se if i can live up to that

role. Thanx in advance.”]

I am putting in my bit here because you have wondered on another board why Shima considers me a namak-halal and you a namak-haraam. I do not wish to argue over these labels. But this is what an Indian Muslim can behave like: state your problems, question the people who cast aspersions on your nationality and patriotism, argue when you feel your religion is being debased, but with the knowledge that others have religious sentiments as well, and they will hit out at you. Yes, a lot of things hurt, but when you have set out to play devil’s advocate, then this is part of the package deal. From your current post, it seems clear that you have a genuine desire to learn. I am sure enlightened people here can help you. I would prefer if some Indian Hindus came forward with unbiased suggestions.

AND...

McDonalds outlets in India do not serve either beef or pork…and it is amazing that the mere mention of Hindu friends makes people wonder that I am bragging about them…just shows how medieval they are…

Regards,

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Ref krashid #: 477

[Friend #462

You asked:

``Did you find in Studebaker only reliable source of information on India?.``

That is a million dollar question.

Yes, I will take his words in a more reliable sense.

You can guess why?]

Yeah. Because Al-Kitab tells you to believe a Muslim`s testimony over a non-believer`s.

Studebaker, what are your complaints against India? Is it Hinduism? Is it the Hindus? Can you let me know.

krashid #477

``You can guess why?``

I am of ``moti budhhi``. Why don`t you reveal what is in your mind !!

Friend #462

You asked:

``Did you find in Studebaker only reliable source of information on India?.``

That is a million dollar question.

Yes, I will take his words in a more reliable sense.

You can guess why?

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Studebaker, #various posts,

You and Harimau are the two sides of the same coin. You can`t be a true muslim since a true muslim can not insult a religion/race based on some senile person`s blabbering. Or you must have a deep sense of hatred, go and pray to Allah to relieve you all of your hate. You will feel blissful. Why beat the entire nation when you have Harimau himself to take the beating? And did not the soil, water, sun of India support you some parts of your life? For that, can your motherland not expect some respect? Did you not learn the term ``namakhalal``? There is a heaven and hell difference between you and Farzana. She is in India and I hope she is fighting for her rights there. She makes lot of sense lot of times while you make none.

You probably do not see that there is no difference between you and Harimau. Because of you fools all the decent people had left chowk, where are Bilal, Sadhna,Temporal, cheraym, Shammi, Shankar etc. gone? I guess they have realised the futility of corresponding here and reading the garbages you guys send in days in and days out.

You mentioned once that you are in NH. I wonder with your kind of writing skill what job you have landed in your adopted country! I did not mean to be hurtful, but I lost patience reading all your garbage, and try to make some meaning out of it. Take care, get rid of your anger, say one, two, three.......

From today`s ``The News``:

Of Punjabi and Punjabiyat

Imtiaz Alam

The World Punjabi Conference, held in Lahore, has not only raised quite intriguing questions about the language and identity, but has also generated a lot of controversy in the Urdu language press, except Jang, that had predominantly misreported a sensitive event and then launched a vicious campaign against it. The people to people interactions across the border are generally misconceived and resented by those who are either overwhelmed by a deep rooted paranoia or in their chauvinism debunk any effort at building bridges. The same elements could not tolerate even a small moot where Punjabi writers and intellectuals resolved to live in amity in the heart of a divided Punjab - the bastion of animosity.

The fact of the matter is that the realization about the futility of animosity among a section of Punjabi intelligentsia that has been the harbinger of mutually reinforcing exclusiveness has come as a rude shock to the prophets of hate on both sides. The onslaught against the Punjabi Conference is understandable since it has, to a degree, eroded the ideological bastion of the aggressive Punjabi chauvinists who have had monopolized a kind of divine right to issue edicts on the patriotic credentials of others in the smaller provinces. Now, to our good luck and that of the subcontinent, the Punjabis are themselves showing some willingness to explore the possibilities of living in a peaceful neighborhood while addressing the issues of identity.

Overcoming a bitter history of bloodbath and religious cleansing, especially in a mutually hostile Punjab where the largest bloody two-way migration took place, is by no means a small endeavor. The Punjabis, who dominate Pakistan and are quite influential in New Delhi, along with other power groups have been defining a hostile relationship between the two states. And the two establishments have been both influenced and constrained by the Punjabi sentiment in pursuing a mutually exclusive course of hostility. Against this backdrop, the World Punjabi Conference is a step that violates the set patterns of bellicosity in the region.

The ice among the Punjabis had actually started to melt after decades of estrangement. With the separation of East Pakistan, the Punjabis in Pakistan had to come to terms with other federating units. The Punjabi-Mohajir axis that also defined the ideological nexus, finally, broke down in the 1990s and opened the possibilities of readjustments and realignments. However, the Punjabi affluent classes took time in re-calibrating their interests and, finally, Mian Nawaz Sharif took the road of settlement of disputes and reconciliation with India with an eye on mutually beneficial trade. This was the time when a different wave of reconciliation was blowing in Northern India - the Hindutva bastion - and Prime Minister Vajpayee had decided to capitalize on it.

The Punjabis in India had got tired of their jingoism and wanted to give peace a chance. The big business in India, especially the Punjabi businessmen, was too eager to revive trade links with their counterparts in this part of the Punjab and beyond, especially Central Asia. As a minority, the Sikhs, who formed a predominant part of the Punjabis in India, felt betrayed and culturally threatened with the dominance of Hindi and rising Hindu chauvinism. The Operation Blue Star, targeting the holiest Sikh shrine, Golden Temple, sent a deep shock of resentment among the Sikhs who were already feeling alienated and a section of them had resorted to separatism and terrorism.

With the defeat of terrorism, the Sikhs have become much more active on cultural and linguistic fronts that they had always kept alive to survive as a distinct ethno-lingual-religious entity. The Punjabi language press and literature continued to flourish. The Sikhs, who had migrated to England and North America in large numbers, were, in particular, keen in preserving their heritage and continued to promote their language and religion as an identity. The World Punjabi Conference is, primarily, the product of a threatened ethno-lingual-religious minority that has most of its sacred places in this part of the Punjab, including the birthplace of Baba Guru Nanank, and Panja Sahib. On the other hand, with the break-up of Punjabi-Mohajir axis and increasing self-awareness of the ethno-lingual communities in Pakistan, counter-posed to the dominant ethnic group, the Punjabis also started to partially look inward, despite zealously maintaining their hegemonic position. Unlike the Sikhs or the Punjabis, who are a minority in India, the majority-Punjabi group in Pakistan abandoned their native language, in favor of Urdu, as a tool to subordinate other linguistic entities and grab greater opportunities. That is why, unlike East Punjab, the Punjabi language had to suffer from the self-convenient neglect of the Punjabis and no Punjabi press worth the name could develop. Similarly, unlike Sindhis, the Punjabi could not be adopted as the mother tongue of learning or official discourse. Yet, the Punjabi writers and intellectuals continued to keep the flame alive, despite isolation. Interestingly, some of the best prose and poetry was written and most famous folk songs and tunes were composed here that are too popular in East Punjab.

What has been ignored by the two hostile establishments was that how deeply the Punjabis, especially those who had migrated during the partition in millions, longed for visiting their ancestral homes and places of birth. The Sikhs have been the greater sufferers since their holiest shrines are located here. Moreover, like Bengalis, the Punjabis had to pay heavily for the pattern of division that Quaid-i-Azam had not thought of. Unlike Germans, the Punjabis chose to divide Punjab on religious lines and have been fated to live in separate state-hoods. Two different scripts and religious differences further reinforced the divisiveness of a divided Punjabi entity.

Yet, the commonality of cultural, lingual and historical roots, coupled with the strong sufi tradition, make the Punjabis explore mutually reinforcing grounds to interact while living in two sovereign nation-states. Both can learn a lot from each other and help promote a buffer that can help reduce tension and resolve cross-border conflict over Kashmir. If Pakistan is destined to survive, as democratic-cooperative federations by granting due rights to the federating units, without the dominance of one big brother, then the powers that be don’t need false ideological facades to undermine regional identities. And if settlement of the Kashmir dispute and peace is in the ultimate interests of both India and Pakistan, then interactions among the Punjabis need not be resented.

A friendly atmosphere across the Wahgah border and friendly relations between the Punjabis can actually serve as a powerful peace constituency. The Punjabis now increasingly realize that they will suffer most if yet another war - that may go nuclear - broke out. Of course, the jingoists and the lobbies who thrive on a perpetual state of conflict will be the losers, not the people across the historical divide that must remain irreversible. The aggressive chauvinists who have attacked the Punjabi Conference cannot give a single reason against an effort that neutralizes anti-Pakistan sentiment in East Punjab. This is also true about the detractors of Punjabi interaction in India.

The Conference, among other resolutions, demanded free-visas for the writers and artists. A journalist friend, Satnam Singh Manik, even demanded relaxation of visas for this side of the Punjabis to visit any place in East Punjab and it was carried by the Conference. Those who make a lot of noise about the Indian cultural invasion forget that Punjabi folklore, sufi poetry and rich literature produced here can sweep all the three Punjabi states of India, beside Delhi. Similarly, if mass visas are granted to the Punjabis on the occasion of Basant, hundreds of thousands will throng Lahore from other side of the border since Lahore, the heart of Pakistan, is also the heart of a divided Punjab. The gurdwaras and temples located on this side can also attract very large number of pilgrims on sacred days of commemoration, besides creating a tolerant and humane image of Pakistan.

The Punjabi Conference did focus on the language and issues of identity. The solution to the two-scripts was, however, resolved by proposing to learn both at the higher stage. Most of the speakers rejected the notions of chauvinism while increasingly referring to the teachings of mystic poets and Guru Nanak. Yet there was an element of assimilative chauvinism towards the Seraiki issue and retaliatory attitude towards other ethno-lingual groups among some of the speakers from our Punjab. They should have focused on the injustices done by their own Punjabis to others, rather than abusing those who resent their oppression. Although most of the speakers did emphasize the inviolability of the two nation-states, yet a section of press misinterpreted the poetic expression of love beyond borders. The World Punjabi Conference has set a positive process into motion. It needs to be followed up by allowing greater room for interaction at the people to people level.

The author is a staff writer

Reply #: 456

[Is it true that recently secular:-) and democratic:-) Government of world`s biggest democracy:-) has released a memorandum for not hiring Muslims in armed forces?:-)]

Actually, you can add to that baseless statement you made up: the Taj Mahal is going to be taken apart block by block to make idols of Ram which will be installed in Ayodhya.

[Do I need to convert back to Islam to enforce secularism?:-)]

If you cut off any more of your dick, you will have to squat to pee.

Krashid # 458

That is a view of religion I can very much respect.

In general, I like religious folks, be they Hindus, Muslims, Christians, or any other. But when people start telling me that I have to believe them because they have something I can`t understand, or that I must believe in something even if it is patently absurd in modern context, I prefer to give them a wide berth.

In that sense, I think, one can be `religious` and `irreligious` at the same time.