Obsession with Borderline Issues

Re: Sameer, #449

``For all Muslim of Pakistan belonging to different tribal groups and claiming to be of Arab (noble) origins, many some claiming to be descendants from a single individual.``

The fact that so many Muslims, not only in Pakistan but in India as well, claim to be descendents of the Prophet and other ``noble`` families of Arabia is probably unique to the Subcontinent Muslims. This is so, I believe, because of the Hindu cultural influence on the Muslims of the Subcontinent, ie, the curse of the caste system. Ironically, this business of ``Syeds, Qureshis, Siddiquis, Farooquis, Usmanis, Alavis, Zaidis, Naqvis, ``rehanansaris`` and so on`` runs contrary to the basic tenet of egalitarian Islam, that all human beings are equal before God. As the great poet Iqbal said ``ek he saf may kharay ho gaiye Mahmood o Ayaz.`` The Muslims of the Subcontinent are cursed, and this ``caste`` system is one of them.

Ref Studebaker #: 450

[There is pathetic representation of muslim in both state & central Govt.jobs.WHICH I AM SURE THEY WIL READILY TRADE OFF THERE PERSONAL LAW PRIVILGESES IF IT CAME TO THAT.WITH15% population dont have more than 5% of govt jobs .]

You know, the IAS exams don`t consist of questions on Al-Kitab. So if you pathetic religion-freaks would go to a regular school and learn something useful, you might get a good job. This is not the time of Akbar when you got a job just because your name was Inayat Khan or Vilayat Khan. Those days ended long back.

With your education in India, you have ended up in the West. So why do the Muslims cry they want government jobs? Is the government denying passports to Muslims? So, why can`t they all get an education and sell their skills to the highest bidder in the world market?

Why during the height of the IT boom (that is, till Dec 2000) were Indian Muslims not proportionately represented in the IT professionals working overseas? Either you have to concede that Muslims don`t want to study hard or they are genetically brain-dead. I don`t subscribe to the latter theory. On the other hand, you could claim that is the case and apply to the Indian government for a jobs quota for the mentally deficient.

Why is it that Indian Muslims refuse to apply themselves as hard as the Sikhs, Christians, Jains, Parsees and the hated Hindus?

http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2001/04/19/fp6s1-csm.shtml

US and China dance with India

As their own relationship is tested, two powers court the world`s largest democracy.

By Scott Baldauf (baldaufs@csps.com)

Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

At the height of the two-week standoff with China over a US reconnaissance plane, President Bush took time to give a visitor a tour of the White House Oval Office. The visitor was Jaswant Singh, foreign minister and defense minister of India, China`s longtime rival that three years ago joined the Nuclear Club.

Sure, it could have been a coincidence. Or it could have been a none-too-subtle signal to China that the US intends to extend its reach in Asia right up to the edge of China`s backyard.

``The US knows the Chinese are watching the US-India relationship warming over the last few years, and Bush used it at a critical moment,`` says Kanti Bajpai, a disarmament-studies professor at Jawaharlal Nehru University in Delhi. ``India knew they were being used, but they milked it for what it`s worth.``

Call it the politics of balance. As the Bush administration shifts China from its ``partner`` column to its ``competitor`` column, there appears to be a growing appreciation among top US officials for the democratic values and strategic goals India shares with the US. Simultaneously, China has been making moves of its own toward India, offering further talks on longtime border disputes.

It may not be time to predict a full strategic alliance with either the US or China, but the sudden attractiveness of India appears certain to slowly but radically shift the power balance in an area of influence shared by all three countries that stretches from the Persian Gulf to the Pacific Ocean.

In an interview in the Hindu, a prominent Indian newspaper, departing US Ambassador Richard Celeste indicated that the Bush administration seemed eager to work more closely with India not just on trade issues, but on strategic ones as well. He noted that a senior Bush administration official had told him that India had ``earned a place at the table`` of global players.

Enhanced military cooperation is just the first step - including the exchange of military and technical advisers, the transfer of high-tech weaponry, and joint military exercises - before a strategic alliance could be formed, security and diplomatic experts say.

Even so, there are some initial signs of a growing US-India relationship.

For one thing, while the Clinton administration waited years to fill the US ambassadorship in India, the Bush administration announced its planned appointment of Robert Blackwill within a month of taking office. Diplomats here say the selection of Mr. Blackwill, senior State Department strategist on Chinese and nuclear proliferation issues, indicates the White House considers South Asia to be a top-priority region.

Over the next few months, a veritable who`s who of Bush officials could be visiting India. President Bush and members of his cabinet have accepted Foreign Minister Singh`s invitations to visit India, but lower down, the flurry of visits could be even more intense

Behind the scenes, there will be even more talks - and a number of Congressional bills - on removing the biggest hurdle to closer US-India ties. With India resistant to signing the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, trade sanctions specifically targeting industries that provide nuclear technology and dual-use technologies were imposed by Congress after India tested nuclear devices in 1998.

In any case, the current US-India relationship is a far cry from the days when India was a left-leaning state that bought Soviet weaponry and preached against the evils of Western (read US) imperialism. What the US would gain from a cozier arrangement, Indian strategic experts say, is a bulwark against Chinese expansionism and Islamic fundamentalism in Central Asia, as well as an advocate for democratic governance in South Asia. What India gains is prestige, security, and a potentially growing role on the international stage.

``In isolation, the US cannot ensure stability in Asia without working with us,`` says Adm. K.K. Nayyar, former chief of Indian naval operations. ``The thing is, you require a counterweight in dealing with the Muslim world. We are the second-largest Muslim country ..., and we represent a relatively more modern, moderate Islamic world view.``

Although India and China accuse each other of fomenting and supporting revolution within its borders, (India in Chinese-ruled Tibet, and China in Indian-ruled Assam and Nagaland), China has begun to trade maps with India over their disputed border from Kashmir to Burma, a marked improvement over trading artillery rounds. Just in the past 50 years, India and China have fought one war and a handful of skirmishes over the area. Trade between India and China has risen from $200 million a year to $2.5 billion in the past 10 years.

``China and India realize they have interests in each other`s stability,`` says Kanti Bajpai, the disarmament-studies professor at JNU. ``We have got a series of confidence-building measures, we have trade relations. We would jeopardize all that if we moved too fast toward a strategic relationship with the US and joined the anti-China bandwagon.``

In addition to continuing disagreements over India`s development and testing of nuclear weapons, other obstructions to a closer US-India strategic alliance include India`s much-stated desire for a permanent seat on the UN Security Council. In addition, the US will have to break the traditional mindset of viewing India primarily in light of its other hostile neighbor, Pakistan, which was a close US ally during the cold-war years. Now, the US will have to begin thinking of India on its own terms.

``We have been through this dance before several times now, but it`s never quite happened,`` says Steve Cohen, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington. ``As the US, we don`t have enough experience to treat India as a strategic partner. And from the Indian standpoint, they don`t want to be in a position where we [the US] fight China to the last Indian.``

One US official agrees that closer ties with the South Asian giant are inevitable, after sanctions are removed. But, he adds: ``A strategic partnership is something that takes time to develop. You don`t just add water and, boom, you`ve got one.``

It may be years away from reaching maturity, but there is an unmistakable giddiness in the air over the prospect. ``It`s like boy meets girl. We have tried to hold hands, but the kissing hasn`t started,`` says S. K. Singh, former foreign secretary under Indira Gandhi, 1969-74. ``Earlier, we were glaring at each other.``

Krashid: I hope you did not mind reading my yesterday`s posts loaded with more than my average typos and poor grammer. I need to write them on word processor and at least read them once before hitting the send button.

In case of Mohammad, his descendants are through Fatima and most Muslims do not object to it.

When I say that Islam did not help in public areas of importance for Pakistan does not mean a support for Indian Unity and must not be read as a case against partition. Those are accepted realities.

The cases of poverty in Bihar or Assam also support my point that religion or sharp division based on religions of a certain group is not going to help any ethnic or national group unless they realize the value in education, progress, harmony and logic

Studebaker #452

“HARImou

Child marriage in India is still prevalent.GANDHI married Kasturba when she hadn`t attained Menarche. ……. GO READ WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR HINDUS RECORD ON WOMAN.DEPLORABLE GENTAL FIXATED OBSESSIVE RELIGION OF DEVDASNI LINGH & KALI --SPL. GODDESS OF PROSTITUTES.!!”

And Farzana #: 440

“ … asked by someone who lives in a country where child marriage, ashram sexcapades, devadasi sacrifices are common?”

Studebaker & Farzana - no one here is defending the custom of child marriage, devadasi etc. WHY do you feel compelled to defend prophet marrying a 6 year old and comsumating the marriage? He was prophet, and was supposed to show the path to others. If you have to justify his actions because “illicit devar-bhabhi, jija-sali relationsahips” happen even today than what is the difference between him and us.

And Studebaker, your post “VEDIC FEMALE INFANTICIDE “ is a direct copy from http://www.dalitstan.org/books/gowh/gowh1.html . Already many readers of this board pointed out the glaring factual mistakes in other articles on that site. If you go and read Arthava Veda, you will find that these sections either do not exist or translation is incorrect. This is not to say that other offensive passages do not exist in those scriptures. But rather than defending them, I will only say that you should try to look at what is good in those scriptures.

For your benefit, I will quote something from Rig Veda

“In one of the most remarkable of the Vedic hymns - In the Hymn of Creation, (Rig Veda 10.129.3 ) a searching inquiry as to the origin of the world is made; it is certainly the earliest known record of philosophic doubt.

`` There was not non-existent nor existent;

There was no realm of air, no sky beyond it.

What covered it, and where? and what gave shelter?

Was water there, unfathomed depth

of water?

Yet the Vedas go further, being philosophy, or really spiritual sciences, rather than myth. The hymn goes to say that in the beginning there was neither death nor immortality, nor day nor night. All that existed was void and formless. Then arose, desire, the primal seed and germ of spirit. But,

Who verily knows and

who can declare it,

Whence it was born and

Whence comes this creation?

The gods are later than this

world`s production

Who knows, then, whence it

first came into being?

Studebaker #450

“WITH15% population dont have more than 5% of govt jobs “

Now 50 years after partition, you should stop playing the game of percentages. Parsis control large portion of business and have a good share of Government jobs. Punjabis have a very good representation in Army and Police of many states and central government. Bihari’s and tamilians have large numbers of civil service posts. Do you wish all those jobs to be divided according to regional and religious percentages by some mathematical formula? It would be better for you to improve your education and than compete on the basis of skills. In addition, perhaps we should do away with the large numbers of Government jobs so that this question of percentage becomes immaterial.

Farzana Versey #440

Ref “Random Thoughts:

… Did the Prophet have to take care of everyone’s need personally? No, I think he delegated some, which is why Islam has so many Imams. Are they one too many for you to handle? As for taking care of his sexual needs first, I assume that the angel Gabriel did some whispering in the Prophet’s ears, and since Islam has a deep respect for Christianity, the aural region assumes great significance. …”

I miss being is same school with you. It would have been fun!!

Re: Harimau #445

[Not at all so. Hindus are not prohibited by their religion from having multiple wives. But a polygamist Hindu cannot get a government job. In fact, even to marry a second time, the man has to have a good reason such as not having a son AND must get consent in writing from the first wife. And he still cannot get a government job......]

Well, not exactly. As per the Hindu marriages act 1955, a hindu cannot have more than one living spouse - period. Irrespective of good reasons and written consents, the second marriage is void in law, and the party liable for prosecution under criminal charges of bigamy.

Thus, the denial of government jobs is not really THE deterrent here.

Of course, you are right that polygamy is not prohibited by hindu religion. In fact, it is mostly silent about it.

Re: Studebaker #452

Is www.dalitstan.org your usual source of information on India and Hinduism? You really believe that by quoting such authoritative sources you will prove your argument?

If there is a point somewhere in what you say, I`m afraid it is entirely lost in the middle of dubious quotes, hyperbole and bad logic.

Sameer-ji:

I know this is off the topic, and somewhat personal, but I have a Hindu friend who`s name is also Sameer. Is it that rare thing, a name used by both Muslims and Hindus? Just curious :-)

regards

Harpreet

krashid #456

``Studebaker #450

Is it true that recently secular:-) and democratic:-) Government of world`s biggest democracy:-) has released a memorandum for not hiring Muslims in armed forces?:-)``

So you found only reliable source of information on India in Studebaker!!

regards

In ref to Harimou various posts.

dear Hari, Ive read your various posts with interest and I have great admiration for your keen intellect, and appreciate the time and effort you put into these interacts.Unfortunately there are not many interactors on your opposing side who cam claim such facility.You truly stand tall in this land of liiliputs.Your hard hitting style rankles even the so called moderates, so to them I say if you can`t take the heat in this anonymous forum then you should get out of the proverbial kitchen.Iamgine if this was truly the UN general assembly debate,heads would be butting and wars would break out because great part of humanity still dwells in a barbaric mindset.I don`t know what will eventually uplift them but any effort to educate people is often met with hostility especially if you lay it on just as it is.

As for Islam I can tell you from first hand experience that it is probably the most cultlike system of brain washing and mind control ever devised by man.The only way I found to deal with it was to deconstruct and detatch it from its so called divine moorings, only then I was able to see the genius behind its design; how a lone man in the desert dispossessed and alienated devised this plan.He lived at a crossroads where a surprisingly diverse group of people interacted.He belonged to the clans which derived their sustenace from catering to the religious needs of differing groups of people.He had access to people who practiced semitic as well as animistic religions. It seems he set out to capture more for himself one small bit at a time and before his death had himself devised the undisputed king of the Arabian hinterland.

World has seen many a genius,hence we are where we are today, and he was but only one of many.I put him in league with Jesus of nazareth,Gautm Buddh,Alexander of macedonia,Chengiz Khan,Aristotle,Socrates and many other men who have shaped the history of mankind as we know it today.

The merit and demerit of any of these people is open to debate and rightfully it should be because they touch so many lives but as long as people are going to be bogged down in the `belief` of any one of their being `divine` and hence beyond our pale of understanding we will be up against a wall of irrationality which is impossible to penetrate.

This particular board is about to be thrown into the oblivion.If you have any comments you can post to the soulmates board.

Best regards.

Okay folks, by now everyone knows that both Hindus and Muslims have practices in the past that would not stand up to today`s moral standards - be it Sati or child marriage or multiple wives or whatever - there is no point in justifying or rationalising them.

Why don`t we just acknowledge the defects of the past and move on? What is more important is that we do not continue to follow these practices and justify them blindly in the name of religion.

Eklavya #441

I don`t see religion as my property.

(Neither I am religious in the strict sense)

Why should I replace objectivity when I can see it clearly.

Religion belongs to anyone who accepts it.

One example of El-Khani (I think) will suffice. They are the descendents of Halaku Khan who wiped out Muslim Empire in Baghdad. Later in Iran they converted to Islam.

Also Quran says that WE (God) will replace you (Muslims) with better people (if you are not better) (or something of sort.

So if Babar was gay, should I start justifying that Gay relationship is Islamic. Or if Taliban destructed Bamiyan Buddha should I start justifying it as Islamic. (How can then I justify non Destruction of Bamiyan Buddhas for many centuries).

That is the reason I like the post of Feroz K very much.

Very objective.

Not something subjective in the garb of objectivism.

Regards.

Studebaker #452

Instead of comparing, which leads to no solution but only depicting that who is worse.

To give you many examples which will show that seeing a phenomenon outside its socio-economic circumstances is useless exercise.

It is not a matter of defense of Prophet PBUH. All his marriages were in lagal framework according to the culture of the time. From Khadija who was 15 years older than him to Aiesha who was very young. There would hardly be any person who would compare with him in morality, humanity, humanism, achievements, influence etc even by unbiased observer. And for me he is best alongwith Jesus Christ.

I was discussing with my friend regarding the difference in age betwen husband and wife.I thought 3-4 years is reasonable and he was telling that more the difference in age the better. And we were not talking in religious terms.

In Tribal areas of Pakistan, the women are married at very young age to older persons due to the tribal culture.

I would, instead of comparing, stress upon the legal aspect. Meaning difference in age is OK as long as sex is in legal framework and there is no hard and fast rule of age difference.

In New York 10 and 12 years old su-ck (You know what) of old people for 10 and 20 dollars. Trade of women has increased dramatically in Eastern Europe once European and American troops have taken control of that region.

In Japan there is almost constant protest against molestation of young Japanese girls at the hands of SECOND LARGEST DEMOCRATS of the world.

These are the things of shame for Muslims.

Regards.

Studebaker #450

Is it true that recently secular:-) and democratic:-) Government of world`s biggest democracy:-) has released a memorandum for not hiring Muslims in armed forces?:-)

Do I need to convert back to Islam to enforce secularism?:-)

Sameer JB #449

But Prophet PBUH had no male child who lived infancy and therefore, if progeny continues from male side there is no descendent of prophet PBUH as such.

Sameer JB #444

In regards to forcing from top a certain version, I probably will be a follower of Jinnah and Gandhi.

The change happens within a society. Mullahs and their influence are part of our society as are liberals and large majority of moderates.

The elevation of Muslims will also happen from within the society. Intellectuals have a large role to play in this regards.

We have come a long way.

When I see Pakistan standing up to India, I consider this. Can Behar, or Assam or other underdeveloped areas can do so if they ever desire. Because the parts comprising current Pakistan was pretty backward at the time of independence.

The good news for me was Punjabi conference. It will be good if Punjabis not only assert their culture, but will also defend other cultures in different parts of Pakistan. And not only assert their rights, but also defend and be part of defending rights of people of other parts of Pakistan.

In another scenario, reversion to old boundaries will also be a good idea.

The primacy should be for the progress of a people whereever they remain. Instead of fighting the war of capitalist industrialist alliance in the name of Islam or Hinduvta or American Interest.

Another happy news is rapport of India with Iran and stress of India on economic prosperity.

One has to wait and see, the Indian hegemonic tendencies to water down to see the prosperity reaching to majority of population of our region.