Obsession with Borderline Issues

Punjab and Partition

Brigadier (Retd) A. R. Siddiqi

The first World Punjabi Conference in April this year at Lahore focused largely on Punjab`s cultural shock in the aftermath of Partition. Described as a `great step forward towards peace and friendship` the conference sought to advance the `cause of Punjabi language (and culture), so that we can wipe away our inferiority complex of our languages.` Except for the parenthesis, the words of Tahira Mazhar Ali, a Pakistani delegate at the conference in a letter which appeared in a prominent newspaper.

Another participant, Mr Sadiqulla, in a similar letter appearing two days later in the same newspaper wrote about the two `main objectives` i.e. the promotion of Punjabi language and `enhancement of understanding` among Pakistanis and Indians anywhere in the world. The writer would simply fail to understand — and rightly too — the `logic` of those opposing the conference for the protection of the `native language` of a people.

The above would not sound too far a cry from the thesis `Partition: the other side of freedom` (words borrowed from Prof Mushirul Hasan`s book of that name!) set out in The Aftermath of Partition in South Asia by Tai Yong Tan and Gyanesh Kudaisya (Routledge, London). Rather than the fruits of freedom, the authors, in their well-researched work, discuss the bitter legacies of Partition and their traumatic impact on the geography, demography and integrated infrastructure of the subcontinent. The theme and rationale of the world Punjabi moot could be appreciated mainly in the context of the negative impact of Partition (as opposed to freedom) on the Punjabi language and culture.

Regardless of the views of the advocates and critics of the conference, it would be hard to deny that for Punjab, independence had been physically the other side of Partition, or vice versa. There is absolutely no exaggerating the massive suffering caused by an indecently hasty and brutally rushed Partition imposed on the land and the people of the province. Also no words of praise would be either too many or even enough for the courage and fortitude of the Punjabis, on both sides of the Great Divide, right through the worst crisis of their history.

Bengal was likewise divided but all in peace and harmony. The Muslim diaspora from the western part of the province and the neighbouring Bihar/Orissa had also been, on the whole, orderly and without the faintest touch of the genocidal mayhem accompanying the Partition of Punjab. The massive and criminal territorial vivisection notwithstanding, the Lahore moot wisely left the tortuous boundary question alone. `Nothing was said against the geographical frontiers of Pakistan.`

Fifty-three years after independence and having been through such apocalyptic traumas as the dismemberment of the one, united Pakistan, we should be bold to analyze things for ourselves and see where we might have either erred or were duped by others. Independence on the basis of an irrationally and unfairly partitioned Punjab was the sort of the Gift of Magi in one of O.Henry`s stories by that name. Reduced to dire poverty, the husband on the occasion of their wedding anniversary, sells his watch chain to buy his wife an expensive comb and the wife her hair to buy her husband a gold watch chain. It should not be difficult to decide whether Punjab, and ultimately Pakistan, got more of Independence or Partition in the light of the strange case of O`Henry`s couple. More than the end of the (pre-) Independence freedom struggle, the advent of independence was the beginning of the post-independence ordeal for Pakistan.

Ecstatic over our liberation from the double yoke of the British imperialism and Hindu hegemonic designs, we forgot all about the irreparable losses suffered through Partition. Kashmir happens to be just one of the consequences — even if the most catastrophic, viciously long enduring and far-reaching in its impact on the geo-political landscape of the subcontinent.

`To this day the overwhelming memory of 1947 for people across the whole of north India remains that of Partition, rather than that of independence` (Tank Kudaisya). Bitter memories of insane violence, break-up of families and `refugee-hood` stay etched in the minds of those still around. The third post-Partition generation, though largely unaware of the 1947 holocaust, remains its congenital carriers as well as academic researchers.

A recognized scholar and chronicler of the events leading to the Partition, G.D. Khosla, while recounting the mass frenzy and madness overtaking the people on both sides of the divide — Punjab in real terms — writes:

`History has not known a fratricidal war of such dimensions in which human hatred and bestial passions were degraded to the levels witnessed during this dark epoch when religious frenzy, taking the shape of a hideous monster, stalked through the cities, towns and countryside, taking a toll of half a million innocent lives.` Stern reckoning: A Survey of Events up to and following the Partition of India). Punjab had indeed been the hub and the epicentre of the holocaust. In reality the Partition of India would be essentially a misnomer since it involved only two of the Muslim majority provinces of Punjab and Bengal, each also with its Hindu majorities in several areas at the division and district levels.

The All-India Muslim League had never exactly defined the territorial basis underlying Partition. The term `Muslim majority` areas used in support of their inclusion into the projected state of Pakistan, could be (and was eventually) used, with equal force of logic, for the inclusion of the Hindu majority areas (down to the village level) into India. The Muslim League, and ultimately Pakistan, was thus duped by its phraseology, supporting Pakistan on the basis of local communal majorities rather than on the basis of each province reckoned as one integrated whole.

The singular lack of perception on the part of the Muslim League high command cost Pakistan horribly dear in terms of land and people. Although no less a person than C. Rajagopalacharia had warned the Muslim leadership against the dire consequences of the Pakistan demand postulated on Hindu-Muslim majority areas, rather than on the basis of whole provinces, regardless of such local Hindu majorities as there might be. Bengal and Punjab, the only two provinces with overall Muslim majorities,also had large Hindu enclaves that would go to India only on a communal basis. Rajagopalacharia told the Muslim leadership in no uncertain terms, that their demand would boil down to communal as opposed to the provincial option.

The Quaid reacted strongly to Rajagopalacharia`s formulation, which in practical terms would lead to the creation of a `moth-eaten, truncated, divided and mutilated,` Pakistan. Such a Pakistan shall never be acceptable to the Muslim League. However, Rajagopalacharia`s realpolitik would eventually cancel out Muslim League`s rosy vision of Pakistan based on the inclusion of all the five Muslim majority provinces, Punjab, NWFP, Sindh and Balochistan in the north-west and Bengal in the north-east into Pakistan.

About the `centrality` of Partition in the life of the subcontinent, Tan and Kudaisya write: `The chronology of modern histories of India and Pakistan have been set up in such a manner that their narratives reach climax at Independence and Partition. Past events and movements are cast in a unilinear movement, inching towards their `tryst` in 1947.` Thus, Partition remains `trapped in chronological bind` seriously hindering a scientific assessment and critical analysis of its `long-term impact` upon the state and the society in South Asia.

A `major breakthrough` came in 1967 with the publication of The Indus Rivers: A Study of its Effects on Partition, by A. A. Michael. Michael`s study of how Partition broke up the integrated irrigation network built around the Indus river and its tributaries (the five Punjab rivers: Jehlum, Chenab, Ravi, Sutlej and Beas). He highlighted the enormous cost involved in building dams and canals to circumvent the disruptions and in working out water-sharing arrangements viz: The Indus Water Treaty of 1960.

Michael`s was, in effect, `a pioneering environmental study of how the setting up of political boundaries could impact upon natural resources and contest over their use.` The internationally brokered Indus water treaty of 1960 added yet another irritant to their confounding geopolitics.

Put together, hydro and geopolitics went on to aggravate the conflict in upper riparian Kashmir. And that in turn led to institutionalizing in microcosm all the historical irritants between the countries....` While it lasts, Kashmir itself stands divided between India and Pakistan, with China having its own finger in the pie.

Returning to the World Punjabi Moot, its manifold importance consists not only in making a case for the promotion of Punjabi language and culture but also serves as a paradigm shift in the conceptual and academic re-assessment of the forces — men, who while struggling for freedom, led to the break-up of the country.

The Rise of Religious Fundamentalism in Pakistan

Hamza Alavi

Religious fundamentalism has become a powerful and dangerous force in Pakistan, due mainly to the opportunism of successive political leadership that has pandered to it. Militant sectarian religious groups and parties, led by half-educated and bigoted mullahs, many of them armed to the teeth, are holding our civil society and the state to ransom. They threaten the very fabric of Pakistan’s society.

Threats of disruption from religious parties have escalated in recent decades. They have steadily grown in strength since the time of General Ziaul Haq. They now claim that they are the true custodians of Pakistan and that it was they, the mullahs, who had fought successfully for Pakistan, to establish a theocratic state for Muslims. Facts contradict such claims. With the exception of Ghulam Ahmad Parvez’s pro-Pakistan Tulu-i-Islam, group, all religious groups and parties, including the Jamiat-i-Ulama-i-Hind, the Majli-i-Ahrar and the Jamaat-i-Islami, had all bitterly opposed the Pakistan Movement and abused its leadership which was secular.

The Muslim League, the Party that led the Pakistan movement, was a party of modern educated Muslim professionals and government job seekers (whom, for the sake of brevity, we may call the ‘salariat’). It had little to do with the outlook of bigoted mullahs. It was free of any millenarian ideological pretence about creating an Islamic state. It was a movement of Muslims rather than a movement of Islam. Behind it was a new class of English educated Muslim professionals and government job seekers that came into being in the 19th century. It got organized politically by the turn of the century, seeking a better deal for themselves vis-à-vis Hindus who were advancing relatively more rapidly in these fields.

When the Muslim League was founded in 1906 at a meeting convened by Nawab Salimullah at Dhaka, the new party was immediately hijacked by the Aligarh group led by Nawab Viqar ul-Mulk. Aligarh was at the vanguard of the new Northern Indian Muslim salariat class, the sons of the Muslim Ashraf [nobility], who were deeply conscious of the loss of their privileges with the advent of British rule and the relatively more rapid rise of Hindu educated classes. The main base of the Muslim salariat was in UP and Bihar for, at that time, the Muslim salariat was relatively weaker in the Muslim majority provinces.

The Muslim League was focused entirely on its secular demands of western educated Muslim professionals and the salariat. Attempts to place the issue of Islamic ideology on the agenda of the Muslim League were both rare and invariably unsuccessful. Arguably, the earliest of such attempts was one by Shibli Numani to Islamise the Aligarh syllabus. Shibli was explicitly committed to theocratic values and wanted to shift the emphasis of the Aligarh syllabus away from English and modern sciences, towards Islamic learning and the Arabic language. The response of the Muslim salariat class to that attempt is exemplified by the remarks of Sir Raza Ali, who was a close collaborator of Sir Syed’s immediate successors, Muhsin ul-Mulk and Viqar ul-Mulk. With them, Raza Ali was at the center of the Aligarh establishment. In an article in the daily Statesman opposing Shibli’s move, he remarked that the idea of reviving Arabic knowledge was, of course, beguiling for Muslims. But he warned that they should not ignore the demands of our times, for the most urgent need of Indian Muslims was to be offered education that would be beneficial in the affairs of this world; education that would help their coming generations to earn their livelihood. Sir Raza Ali spelt out the principal concern of the educated Muslim middle class at the time. Their concern was not about a hypothetical return to original Islam and the creation of an ‘Islamic State’, ruled over by mullahs, that Shibli had dreamt about. Shibli had to leave Aligarh, for it was not the place where his theocratic ideas could flourish.

Among the rare attempts to bring the issue of ‘Islamic Ideology’ on to the agenda of the Muslim League was one that was planned for the Delhi Session of the AIML in April 1943. One Abdul Hameed Kazi (backed by ‘Maulana’ Abdul Sattar Niazi) canvassed support for a resolution, which he intended to table. That would commit the Muslim League to an Islamic ideology and the creation of an Islamic state. But pressure from everyone around him forced Kazi to abandon the idea. The resolution was not even moved. The Pakistan movement remained firmly committed to its secular concerns.

In his keynote speech before the inaugural meeting of Pakistan’s new Constituent Assembly, on 11th August 1947, Mr. Jinnah spelt out the Pakistan Ideology, namely the secular and tolerant vision of the new state. That speech was not a sudden aberration, as some Islamic ideologists, and General Zia’s hacks, were later to allege. It was consistent with what Mr. Jinnah had been saying for decades. The Muslim League had always been committed to a secular society.

Following Mr. Jinnah, his political successor, Liaquat Ali Khan, too reiterated the Muslim League’s secular values. When Liaquat moved the Objectives Resolution in the Constituent Assembly in March 1949 he declared that ‘As I have just said, the people are the real recipients of power. This naturally eliminates any danger of the establishment of a theocracy.’ Despite that clear statement by the mover of the Objectives Resolution, later religious ideologues, notably General Zia and his hacks, have claimed that the Objectives Resolution was a charter for the imposition of the ‘Sharia’ (as they would interpret it) although the word Sharia does not occur anywhere in that Resolution. Their argument is based on some conventional generalities in the Resolution, which said that ‘Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives, in the individual and collective spheres, in accord with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and the Sunna’. That did not amount to a charter for the creation of a theocratic, ‘Islamic’ State.

Liaquat’s position on the Muslim League’s traditional secularism was, however, soon to be reversed. Not so very long after the Objectives Resolution was passed, Liaquat began to change his tune for his political base was threatened by splits in the Muslim League in the Punjab, which was the power-base of Pakistan’s ruling elite. That was due to factional conflict between Daulatana and Mamdot who left the Muslim League to form a rival Party. Liaquat was now in a panic. He decided to exploit Islamic rhetoric, to hold together his crumbling Party. He began to speak of ‘Islam in Danger’. He also began to equate loyalty to the Muslim League with loyalty to the state. Those who opposed him or his party were denounced as traitors.

There was, however, a second and a much more important reason why Liaquat decided to abandon his secular stance. Powerful regional movements had arisen in East Bengal, Sindh, Balochistan and the NWFP, whose people felt that they were not being given their due in a Punjabi dominated Pakistan. They demanded regional autonomy and fairer shares of resources. The Centre, which was seen as ‘Punjabi’, was in fact dominated by a cohesive bureaucracy, under Chaudhri Muhammad Ali as Secretary General to the Government. It was the centralised bureaucracy that ruled Pakistan whilst politicians, including Liaquat, went through the motions.

Arguably, it was the challenge to the centre from regional movements which was the more important factor in precipitating Liaquat’s ideological volte-face. Abandoning Mr. Jinnah’s (and his own) firm stand against pandering to the mullahs, Liaquat sought to negate regional demands by issuing calls for ‘unity’ in the name of Pakistan and Islam. We were all Pakistanis and Muslims, it was now argued, and therefore we could not be Bengalis or Sindhis or Baloch.

The bureaucracy, rather than Liaquat, was in effective control, and it was not prepared to make any significant concessions to the mullahs. The mullahs could be given a visible public role, but without any real share in power. For those purpose a Board of Talimaat-i-Islamia, was set up. It provided a few jobs for some senior mullahs, the Ulama. But the Board was to be no more than a façade for the newfound religious rhetoric of politicians. It was not to have any real powers. Its function was purely advisory and that too only on matters that were referred to it. When the Board did make some suggestions they were unceremoniously ignored. Nevertheless, the Ulama seemed to be content with the arrangement. They remained quiescent for nearly two decades. Recalcitrant Mullahs, such as Maulana Maududi, found themselves in jail. The mullahs were under control.

That basically peaceful scene was disturbed only temporarily in 1953, when Islamic militants launched Anti-Ahmadi riots in the Punjab and Martial Law was proclaimed. Although religious zealots of the Majlis-i-Ahrar and the Jamaat-i-Islami led the riots, they were in fact being used by cynical political forces, led by Punjab Chief Minister Mumtaz Daulatana. That was done in the context of US attempts to destabilise the Nazimuddin Government at the centre and to counter the Bengal group of MPs in the matter of the proposed Pakistan-US military Alliance which they opposed. That is a long and complicated story.

A decade and a half later, religious rhetoric was indulged in by the illegitimate regime of General Yahya Khan, but without conceding any formal role to the mullahs. General Sher Ali, redefined ‘Pakistan Ideology’ as ‘Islamic Ideology’. The Yahya government’s primary concern was to de-legitimise the increasingly powerful Bengali nationalism. Yahya’s Bengali adviser, Prof. G. W. Choudhury, had persuaded him and his coterie of Generals, that East Bengali nationalism was limited to only a handful of intellectuals, who were in the pay of the Indians and that the vast majority of Bengalis had no sympathy with them. That tragically false picture could account for the ferocity and reckless manner in which Yahya tried to suppress the Bengali people in 1971. Would they have embarked on that policy if Yahya had even the slightest inkling of the depth of Bengali feelings?

The mullahs were quiescent, however, until they were stirred into action by the foolish populist rhetoric of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto who misguidedly decided to exploit religious ideology. Thereby Bhutto sowed the seeds of his own destruction, for the re-activated mullahs became the vanguard of the campaign against him. That set the scene for Gen. Zia’s coup d’etat.

It was under General Zia that narrow and bigoted religiosity became state policy. The General sought the political support of the mullahs for his illegal regime, for he had no other political base. He also sought financial support from the Reagan regime in the US. Both of these objectives, he thought, could be secured through an Islamic Jihad which he proclaimed against the Soviet presence in Afghanistan. The CIA took over the task of organising armed religious groups in Afghanistan, in cooperation with Pakistani agencies. When the Russians left Afghanistan, however, the CIA was withdrawn precipitately from the scene, leaving it to Pakistan to deal with the mess that they had created. Foolish Pakistani policies since then, especially under Benazir Bhutto and her successor Nawaz Sharif, got Pakistan even more heavily involved with these once US sponsored ‘terrorist groups’. The present government has done little to turn away from these policies to extricate Pakistan from the mess that was inherited from Zia’s Afghan policy.

When he seized power illegally, Zia badly needed some source of legitimacy for his regime. Being politically bankrupt, he decided to exploit the credulity of Pakistani Muslims by invoking Allah. He claimed to have experienced ilham (a divine revelation) in which, he declared, he was enjoined by the Almighty himself to Islamise Pakistan and to transform it into a fortress of Islam. New ‘Islamic Laws’ were promulgated that were crude and cruel distortions of Islamic teachings, such as his Hudud Ordinance which, for example, had the effect of punishing a rape victim (for fornication) while the perpetrator of the rape went scot-free because of impossible conditions of proof now needed to prove his guilt!

Zia also bequeathed to his successors undemocratic Shariat Courts that are answerable to no one. They issue binding decisions on the state and on the people, in the name of the Sharia. That role, in the name of Islam, is rejected by the philosophy of Sir Syed Ahmad who pointed out that Islam did not decree the office of a Pope with powers to issue binding decrees in the name of the faith. Islam, he said, is a religion of the individual conscience. No person or institution has the right to issue binding fatawa, laying down what Islam is and what it is not. Indeed, no other Muslim country has the equivalent of our Shariat Courts. They were set up by Zia’s illegitimate regime and should be dissolved.

The Shariat Courts are manned by persons who hold rigid religious views. Their most damaging decision so far is an order that requires the abolition of interest, ‘in all its forms’, by 30th June, 2001. This threatens to bring Pakistan’s already very shaky economy to a complete halt. No enemy of Pakistan could have devised a more potent weapon to destroy the country. In arriving at their decision the judges of the Shariat Bench of the Supreme Court set aside the advice of a very large number of scholars who came before it as witnesses, who resisted this interpretation of the Sharia.Instead, the Court appears to have been misled by bogus claims of ‘Islamic Banking’. They seem to be ignorant of how a modern economy functions and do not seem to have understood at all the obvious implications of their decision in a modern day capitalist economy such as that of Pakistan. They appear to be ignorant of the difference between interest in a modern capitalist economy ( sood) and usury (riba) in pre-capitalist economies to which Quranic strictures apply. What the Shariat Courts have produced is a time bomb which, if allowed to go off, threatens to blow up Pakistan’s economy.

The present Government seems to be paralyzed in the face of the die-hard religious lobby which seems to be triumphant about this. It has poor advisers. As soon as the Shariat Appellate Bench of the Supreme Court announced its decision, the Minister of Finance, who is an ex-banker, declared, without pausing to think, that the Court’s decision would be implemented in full. But, after months of deliberations by several high powered committees, the Government still has no idea whatever of what is to be done. It speaks with two voices. At a recent meeting, the Federal Minister for Religious Affairs declared that the Government has drafted all required laws and regulations, which are ready to be promulgated and that the Government is ready to implement the Shariat Court’s decision in full, and without qualifications. But at the same meeting, the Governor of the State Bank of Pakistan (the country’s central Bank) declared that they do not as yet know how the Shariat Court decision can be implemented. He said that the Government needs more time to work out viable solutions and that it has asked for an extension of time.

The Government does not seem to understand the gravity of this issue. They should know that they cannot allow the economy to collapse. But they also appear to be too intimidated by religious fundamentalists to overturn the Shariat Court’s decree. Meanwhile, the top nine religious parties in the country have declared that they will launch a mass anti-Riba movement, on the lines of the movement that brought down Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, if the Government fails to abolish interest by the date laid down by the Shariat Bench of the Supreme Court, namely the end of June, 2001. They have declared, ominously, that the time has come for a decisive war between Islamic and secular forces in the country!

A major factor in the present situation is a development since the time of Zia. That is the proliferation of deeni madaris, religious schools that have spread throughout Pakistan. They receive generous foreign funding, not least from Middle Eastern states like Saudi Arabia. The deeni madaris have little difficulty in recruiting pupils (taliban), who are turned into fanatics, ready to die for what they are taught to believe are sacred causes. A factor that has greatly helped their recruitment is the creation of a huge number of unemployed families, people without a livelihood and without hope, as a consequence of farm mechanization, especially in the Punjab. Every tractor displaces at least a dozen families of sharecroppers. Hundreds of thousands of them are now without a source of livelihood. In that context, the appearance of the well financed deeni madaris, who take over their children, give them free ‘tuition’, accommodation and food, cannot appear to be anything other than a great blessing. The enthusiastic young taliban are taught to recite the Quran. They are also indoctrinated, their minds filled with distorted and intolerant ideas about what Islam is and what it prescribes. The taliban are thus turned into fanatics. Most of the ‘ deeni madaris also give them military training for jihad initially ostensibly against the Soviets and now for the liberation of Kashmir. But already Pakistan itself is experiencing the inevitable heavy fallout from this. The armed groups, many of them with battle-hardened taliban, are in the vanguard of sectarian killings throughout Pakistan, which are on the increase; killings of members of rival sects, Sunnis against the Shi’a, Deobandi Sunnis against Barelvi Sunnis and so on. They have also begun to issue threats against the state itself and the society in Pakistan.

Instead of a viable policy designed to disarm and liquidate such groups, successive regimes in Pakistan have pandered to them. The current military government, unlike the military regime of General Zia, has not indulged much in religious rhetoric, except for the occasional utterances of its Federal Minister for Religious Affairs. Indeed, the Government’s liberal interior minister, General Moinuddin Haider, has given calls, from time to time, about doing something to bring the so-called deeni madaris under some sort of control, reforming their syllabi to introduce some useful, career related, educational input into their activities. For that he has become the bête noir of the religious parties, who have warned the government, firmly, against meddling in their affairs.

The government, for its part, seems to be intimidated by the militant Islamic groups. In December last, for example, one Maulana Muhammad Akram, leader of the Tanzimul Ikhwan, threatened to march on Islamabad with ‘hundreds of thousands’ of his followers, to force the Government to promulgate the Sharia. The Government’s response was to placate him. It despatched the Punjab Home Secretary and the Inspector General of Police to parley with Akram. That was apparently not enough, for it then sent Dr. Mahmood Ghazi, the Federal Minister for Religious Affairs, as reinforcement. After long drawn out talks, Maulana Akram ‘graciously agreed’ to defer his plan to storm the capital. It has been suggested by the media that Maulana Akram has ‘a lot of influence among middle-ranking officers of the army’. If that is so, that must surely be extremely worrying. Could it be that which explains the Government’s apparent paralysis in the face of serious threats from fanatical religious groups? It must know that a do nothing policy will not solve anything. Left to itself, the situation can only get worse.

Theories of the state, democratic or otherwise, are premised on the state’s monopoly of legitimate force. But here we have a situation where the state’s monopoly of force is undermined by the numerous armed religious groups (who often work in concert) that have agendas of their own. The Government must realise that the more they try to accommodate religious zealots, the stronger and the more intransigent they become. What the situation demands is a firm and well thought out policy to disarm such groups and bring them under control. It is surprising that Pakistan’s professional military does not yet seem to have realised the very serious threat that this situation poses to itself as well as to the State and society as a whole. In the meantime, until something is done, Pakistan will continue to stagger towards an uncertain future, with contradictory state policies.

Professor Hamza Alavi is Pakistan’s leading sociologist and educationist. He read this paper at the South Asian Conference on Religious Fundamentalism held in Dhaka on June 1-2, 2001

Ideological crossroads

Najum Mushtaq

If it is not anti-Indianism, then in what other terms could we possibly render Pakistani-Muslim nationalism? Musharraf chose the holy day of Eid-e-milad to reprimand ``irresponsible religious leaders`` whose ceaseless war cry against India is harming Pakistan`s interests. Economic growth, he said, has been undermined by religious militancy and sectarianism that distort Pakistan`s image in the international community.

This change of heart is welcome. But this new tune from Islamabad is bound to have widespread and deep political and social ramifications.

It is surprising that the general was so selective in identifying those whose belligerent posture towards India undercuts Pakistan`s national interests. The `ideology of Pakistan` as defined to students at every school and college in the country is nothing except anti-Indianism. In every walk of life in Pakistan-from academia to journalism, from sports to bureaucracy-a vast majority of people have been inculcated with fantastic anti-India notions.

But the most obvious place to look for unflinching anti-Indianism is of course the military itself. Phrases like the ``Hindu mentality`` and ``devious Indian psyche`` are part of the daily military talk. The jehadi groups that are now being berated for their ``irresponsible statements`` have always enjoyed a close relationship with the Pakistan military. In fact, the trend of religious and sectarian militancy is a direct consequence of the policies which Musharraf`s predecessor from the army, Ziaul Haq, was so proud of.

Anti-Indianism, in short, runs deep in Pakistani state and society. It is a state of mind that cannot be switched off by mere statements of disapproval. People have no other alternative frame of reference in which to define Pakistani nationalism.

This sentiment dominates Pakistan`s other policy choices as well. In his Seerat Conference statement, Musharraf argued that, after the acquisition of nuclear weapons, Pakistan is militarily strong and what needs to be done now is to make its economy strong. But Pakistan`s economy is weak exactly because a disproportionately large chunk of the resources has always been used for defense (against India) at the expense of social development and economic growth. Had it not been for the India factor there would have been little logic in building up such mammoth defenses.

But the most sinister manifestation of Pakistan`s misdirected India policy is the mushrooming of sectarian militant outfits in the name of jehad in Kashmir. Pakistani society has been fragmented along sectarian lines. Violence in Pakistan has increased in direct proportion to the rise in the number of religious militant groups (who, according to Musharraf, misuse jehad funds).

Read the following three headlines from The News on June 7, 2001, the same issues that also carried Musharraf`s historic statement. ``Violence leaves 13 injured in Karachi``; ``24 people killed in (Kashmir) valley clashes``; and ``Bomb destroys bookshop in Karachi``.

In the first instance, two Sunni groups fought a gun battle to decide which party`s flag should be hoisted atop a mosque on the eve of the last Prophet`s birthday celebrations. The bookshop that was blown up by a booby-trap belonged to Jaish-e-Mohammad, Maulana Azhar Masood`s Kashmir freedom fighters group. The front-page picture in the same day`s paper showed an armed policeman overseeing a road in Rawalpindi where a 12th Rabi-ul-Awal procession was about to pass.

To change the fateful course of history and save Pakistani society from further degeneration, the role of religion in Pakistan`s foreign and domestic policy needs to redefined. If religion is not a factor in Pakistan`s relations with, say, China or Nepal, it should also be delinked from Islamabad`s India policy.

Musharraf has made a correct diagnosis of what ails Pakistan. However, blaming the religious right-wing alone is likely to complicate and deepen the country`s crisis of ideology. It remains to be seen if Musharraf has the will to overhaul the entire ideological edifice of the state of Pakistan and rebuild it in conformity with Jinnah`s ideals.

The writer is an assistant editor at The News

najummushtaq@hotmail.com

From Dawn May 29, 2001

Road to Kandahar

By M.P. Bhandara

ARE we on our way to becoming the camp-followers of an obscure, bigoted mullah living in Kandahar? Perhaps not, but in an ideological sense he is a role model for thousands of our youth. For many misguided souls he has stellar qualities. Qom, once the leading centre of radical Islam, has lost its primacy to Kandahar. And Imam Khomeini, who in the 1970s was the undisputed leader of resurgent Islam, is regarded as a renegade in the sanctum of Kandahar.

Ahmad Rashid, a well known Taliban expert, recently made a telling point. One of the reasons for the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas, he said, was the cultural acceptance of the pre-Islamic heritage by the Shia population of the Hazarajat. The destruction of the Buddhist relies was not an act directed against the Buddhists of the world but a slap on the face of the rebellious Shias - a reminder that there is no place for a pluralistic vision of Islam in Kandahar.

There were good reasons for Pakistan promoting the Taliban in mid 1990s. Afghanistan was in deep chaos after the fall of Najeebullah. The Taliban were almost Pakistani products. These Afghan youths, educated in our borderland madrassahs, run by our religio-political organizations, had little memory of their homelands. They were the trampled flowers of the Afghan Diaspora. Phoenix-like they rose from the ashes. Unspoiled, uncorrupted, these single-minded youth had Afghanistan at their feet by the consent of a tired populace.

The Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), after an initial period of skepticism, decided to back up the Taliban. There were good reasons for doing so then. Therefore, almost any price can be considered for a pro-Pakistan regime in Kabul which will neither raise the Pukhtoonistan stunt nor create problems on our western border. Some of our military planners, afflicted with the fever of the Soviet Afghan war, much later developed the concept of `strategic depth`.

This spurious theory postulates that in the event of war with India, Afghanistan would provide sanctuary for our military aircraft and provide bases for retaliation from there. If indeed our bases can be knocked out by the enemy, what would prevent it from knocking out our planes tucked away in Afghanistan? one may ask. After all, all is fair in war.

What is undeniable, however, is that a two-front security situation could pose a serious problem for Pakistan`s armed forces. If our western border was restive during a conflict with India, we would require the equivalent of two armies. And remember no army in history has ever succeeded in disciplining the unruly Afghan. Therefore, to keep Afghanistan as an ally or as a dependent friendly state is a strategic imperative.

In sum, so long as the Kashmir problem is not resolved, we have to configure India as a potential enemy and Afghanistan as an ally.

The questions that must concern us relate to the physical, psychological and geopolitical costs of this confrontation with India and keeping Afghanistan as a friendly state. Are we fated to this paradigm for the rest of our lives? Or, are there alternative models that could be considered without giving up the basic objectives?

The costs are clear enough. In the last decade of confrontation with India, we have received little or no military aid from any quarter and little economic aid since 1998. As a result, our total public debt rose from Rs 155 billion in 1980 to Rs 3,200 billion in 2000. It is over six times the revenue collected annually and 2 per cent higher than our GDP at market price. The level of our internal and external debt is probably the highest in the world (Italy, by GDP measure, is higher but not as a percentage of revenue). Assuming our population now is 142 million, any child born today inherits a debt of Rs 22,500 as his legacy from Pakistan`s past.

What have the people of Pakistan gained from being one of the most indebted countries in the world? Our literacy rate, a half-century after independence, is less than 50% measured by a fairly broad definition; less than 35% by a stricter definition. Clearly the confrontation with India has been financed with borrowed external and internal money - some of it borrowed on high rates of interest. Does it make sense to keep up a confrontation with a perceived enemy at the expense of the country`s assured bankruptcy? Zulfikar Ali Bhutto never ate grass in pursuit of the nuclear ambition, while the borrowings provided the necessary capital for corruption.

But there are even more severe costs. To be the sole supporter of a regime, which has almost pariah status in the comity of nations, is to acquire that sorry status for yourself. If a man is known by the company he keeps, so is a nation. The Taliban regime we support is bad news for the Afghans themselves (women in particular), for the region and for the world of Islam. If Mullah Omar remains in power for another decade, Afghanistan might be half-emptied of Afghans by war, disease, starvation, or migration - or worse: the Islamic Emirate might end up with the world`s highest per capita of drug addicts (Remember Ziaul Haq`s famous non-prediction: ``Muslims will never take to heroin - the faith prevents them from doing so).``

What are we to do? Should we give up Kashmir and cosy up to India? Certainly not. What we have to learn is to wage a war without fighting losing battles or, for that matter, any battles. To relearn the wisdom of the Clauswitzean cliche: `war by other means`. The model in this regard is the 50-year-old diplomatic war waged by China to reclaim its US-backed province of Taiwan. The Chinese have threatened invasion of Taiwan accompanied by the most violent gestures, but it has always been a war of words and dire threats. The last years of Chairman Mao were marked by reckless policies, but apart from the early years of the communist regime and the late Maoist aberration, China as an economic fortress has been the constant imperative.

China alone is the economic miracle of the 20th century. It has sustained an average growth rate of about eight per cent over the past two decades - an all-time high of over ten per cent in the past three years. No other country in recent history has achieved this. How did it happen? It abandoned all ideological considerations and previous fixations for the sake of economic growth. But never for a moment did it abandon its war of words against Taiwan. On the contrary, it has encouraged the Taiwanese to invest in China. Billions of Taiwanese dollars have helped make the Chinese economic miracle. Taiwanese tourists by the thousands are welcomed to spend their holiday dollars in China. As a result, China draws a line between the people and the government of Taiwan. The `people` visits have played a significant role in changing attitudes on both sides of the divide.

Equally successful has been Chinese foreign policy. Notwithstanding acrimonious verbal duels with the US in parallel with threatening admonitions for the Taiwanese politicians seeking a status other than reunification with the mainland, Chinese policy has been marked by cycles of carefully measured belligerence followed by troughs of cooling off periods. In the process, China has kept Taiwan on the red-hot burner of world concern while extracting every conceivable economic benefit from the US and the West.

Ideological shenanigans must be jettisoned. For example, just look at the time, money and effort wasted on trying to determine whether or not modern banking interest is Riba. Likewise, consider the national waste of manpower, when the flower of our youth, deprived of all avenues of gainful employment, is forced into ethnic, sectarian or wars of ``liberation`` from Chechnya to Kashmir - or plain robbery. Modern banking, foreign investment and employment are all parts of one single paradigm.

The military has had two opportunities in the past two decades to modernize Pakistan and make it an ``economic fortress``. It has miserably failed to do that. And so have the politicians. To take a U-turn on the road to Kandahar requires courage and vision of the highest order. It required a Deng Xiaoping to change the direction of China from a deeply embedded communist ideology to market economy without a revolution. For a military ruler to bring modernization to Pakistan is somewhat unlikely. He has no political base. The task calls for a courageous politician who can convince public opinion that the road to Kandahar leads to a failed state and an ultimate walk-over by the perceived enemy.

The pace of change in our neighborhood can no longer be casually waved aside. To mention just one little noticed fact. General Electric (GE) had a turnover last year of over a billion dollars in India. The next generation of advanced super-fast and fuel-efficient locomotives are being designed not in the US or Europe but in Bangalore by GE.

There are over 130 world class multinationals doing much the same sort of thing in our neighboring country. Indian foreign exchange reserves are over 20 times that of Pakistan today and in three years may well be over a hundred times of our reserves. At least three states in India have achieved full literacy.

What all this means for Pakistan is obvious. When in a competitive situation with others what matters is the game not its ideology. International rules of conduct and behavior apply to playing cricket, hockey or football. Much the same applies to nations. If you inflict your rules for playing football - as the Taliban did on our football team, by shaving off their heads - then no one will be willing to play with you.

The upshot of this discussion is that you cannot have two or more national goals at one time. It is not possible to have the goal of an ``economic fortress`` and, at the same time, the rules of a theocratic state or make Kashmir to be the be-all and end-all of your foreign policy. All three goals are mutually incompatible.

The option for Pakistan today is some form of theocracy - the road to Kandahar - or a return to Jinnah`s vision of a democratic, progressive, economically vibrant and self-respecting Pakistan. The choice is obvious.

Hummm! Very surprising and interesting too. Someone on Chowk (whom I presume was born Muslim) has found that there are interesting parts to Hindu belief and faith. Reminds me of my Muslim Indian friends back home in India (at least two of whom know a lot of Sanskrit unlike me!)

Sadna: Where have you been? Welcome back. The guy praying without taking off his shoes is not me. I take off my shoes before getting into spirituality related rituals.

lo kar lo baat, nimaaz with shoes on?

Something heard third-hand:
A mosque in the US where the Pakistani moulvi? is leading a campaign for social boycott of a member of the Pakistani community. Why? This member faithfully follows many-times-a-day namaz routine whereever he is, but doesnot take off his shoes while doing so.

Re: Romair #92

``To clarify my definition furthur (sic), I consider a person a noble freedom fighter if he is a genuine volunteer, fighting against oppressors, is supporting an indigenous struggle with the backing of the local people, and does not deliberatley target civilians. What else should I call him?``

I wonder what you would call the following criminals who perpertrated this act: (Mujahideen? Freedom fighters?)

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/010507/1/ombp.html

Islamic guerrillas massacre seven in Indian Kashmir

JAMMU, India, May 7 (AFP) -

``Suspected Islamic separatist guerrillas Monday massacred at least seven people, including two children, in a frontier region of Indian-administered Kashmir, police said.``

``An unspecified number of guerrillas who had abducted two young boys from Poonch`s Sangla region shot dead with automatic weapons three men who had come to rescue the children, a police spokesman said.``

``The gunmen then mowed down their two young captives, he said.``

``At about the same time, unidentified guerrillas fired a rocket-propelled grenade at the home of a village chieftain in Poonch`s Marhot region, killing two teenaged boys in the complex.``

TAhmed #562

Cat was never meant to be politicians by me.

They can be kicked like this ``in one Chutki``

We are just trying to rationalize things.

Who will take care of people.

Our elite and rich will found a way to take care of themselves in ANY SYSTEM.

And PM if you mean Pervez Musharraf in the last analysis is only going to take care of his constituency. Meaning Civil and Military bearreaucracy and Industrial-Feudalist.

How can you expect them to divert money for education and progress of people, if ever Pakistan has money.

That is beyond my comprehension.

53 years of Pakistan History is a sufficient proof of it.

Only elected representative of people who are answerable to people can take care of their problems.

The only reason for SOFT Martial law at this time is that Pakistan cannot afford to alienate its own population in such a difficult circumstances.

But if history is any guide, I have no doubt about the fate of Majority of Pakistanis at the hands of these rulers.

In this soft situation, the best option is to get the most constitutional rights of people.

BENEVOLENT ELITES is a misnomer for all practical purposes.

krsahid #561 Who will bell the cat, you ask. I assume from the rest of your post that by bell you mean democracy and the rule of law and the cat being political power in Pakistan. I dont think you or I can bell the cat, or even PM. These things require a cultural change in the direction of respect of more rational thinking and respect for the individual as well as for different beliefs and different communities of people. What the individual chowk posters (like you and me) can do is to demonstrate this in our posts at all times. This is in addition to other things we may be doing in real life to this end. But we have to be patient - there is no magic wand that will bring about this change overnight.

TAhmed321#

I think you skipped rest of my post.

Who will bell the cat?

There is no choice but to fight for these aims.

I can label you with full force of state power as most corrupt person of this century from an FIR filed in 1981(filed today off course with back date).

Can you defend yourself? You will continue to run from one court to another for the rest of your life to prove your innocence.

Do you remember the hanging of Bhutto when majority of judges were changed to get the CORRECT decision. (Even that correct decision was 3:4). Did you forget how interested Zia-ul-Haq was before his death in the time of delivery of Bilawal, son of Benazir so as to arrange election on correct time.

To only certain way of winning is CONTINUE TO HARP these points and Continue to serve our rulers.

Rest is farce or a continuous struggle, the fruits of which may be eaten by future generations.

krashid #559 ``You can definitely run on three point programme.``

I bet if we had a referendum on these points, they would be passed in a landslide.

TAhmed #558

You can definitely run on three point programme. And lets hope sane people get into politics.

But the power struggle in Pakistan will not be as simple.

I think priority needs to be altered. As the money moves the system, so our elite and rich will find a way to run the system according to their advantage.

It is the common man who needs leadership by people, who can stand for them. One thing which has been to advantage to Pakistan has been the alternative economy which was keeping the common man alive. Instead of more control by Government, I would tend to encourage the local solutions to the problems with possible help from Government or Private sector.

The struggle in Pakistan is at a stage where small provinces have different political outlook and solutions to their problems. They want a social justice for all but especially to them.

My view will be this on political matters.

1- President should be directly elected and should represent the Administration and should have sufficient power. As evidenced by Farooq Leghari and GIK, their job is as representative of Administration.

2- Prime Minister as Chief of Legislative and should be able to work without interference from Armed forces etc.As they are elected representative, they have to and will take care of their constituency Due to the concerns of small provinces, I think Senate should be directly elected body. I don`t foresee any change in balance between the powers of Senate and National Assembly.

3- Judiciary should be completely independent.

4- Local bodies should be strengthened, to solve the problems at local levels.

I think if our intellentia is powerful enough and guide the nation with force and intellect, the pseudo-Islamist will be forced to change their rhetoric and level of their discussion.

krashid #557 Thanks for the figures. I think you will agree that they indicate that the overriding problem is the large share of nonproductive (in which I would include military) expenditures in the budget. If funds are distributed to the provinces on a population basis, as you indicate, then that would seem to be a reasonably fair way to proceed. I say ``reasonably fair`` since a better way would be to look at things in a totally different way: (1) take actions to minimize nonproductive expenditures (these would be drastic actions like changing the entire tone of relations with India to one of friendship, reduce civil and military services to a tenth of their current size, and so on). (2) use funds freed up to (a) strengthen law enforcement, increase salaries of people in key regulatory institutions (state bank, SEC, judiciary) and so on) and (b) promote IT infrastructure, (c) promote education. (3) Declare Pakistan to be a plain republic (drop the ``Islamic`` part): Islam belongs in the hearts of people, not on their sleeves, and nowhere is it prescribed in the Quran that a state must have the name Islamic before it (indeed, it was a state that was run by a non-muslim, the Queen of Sheba, that was praised in the Quran as being a well-run state where the ruler consulted with others - a clear indication in the direction of democracy). Introduce additional penalties (in addition to what the criminal law provides) on any crimes that are committed in the name religion or ethnicity. (This item of course requires no funding).

PS You think I could run for elections in 2002 based on this 3-point agenda? :-)

krashid #555 On the military expenditure, you are right that too much is spent on the military. And you are also right that the Panjabis are in the majority (due to tradition and due to their being the majority ethnic group in the country). However: the real problem is the high military expenditure as well as other wasteful expenditures in the government. Fix this problem, and the problem of who is over- or underrepresented in the military and civil services disappears. The real problem is the lack of employment opportunities overall. This problem is due to due to poor economic progress over the past couple of decades. That poor economic progress is due to lack of private investment. And lack of private investment is due to the fact that Pakistan cannot compete for private capital due to (a) political instability; (b) reputation for lawlessness; (c) lack of trained manpower.

Moral: Instead of fighting among ourselves and with India (thereby worsening rather than improving the underlying problems as listed above), we should learn to live in peace among ourselves and our neighbors and focus on educating the next generation. And deep down most Pakistanis know that too, I think.

TAhmed # 321 I will try to give a glimpse into revenues. These are current figures from ministry of finance.

In millions of rupees

1- Total revenues: 247,622

a) Tax : 204,926

b) Non-Tax : 42696

2- Total expenditure current: 298,962

a) Interest : 103,791

b) Defense : 61,247

c) Development and net : 28,459

lending

d) Unidentified expendi : 1,491

e) Budget deficit : 78,307

Now see the break up of total expenditure in a different format:

Total expenditure (provisional: 327,421

Total expenditure current: 298,962

a) Federal : 219,611

1)Interest payment : 103,791

2)Defense : 61,247

3)General Administration: 32,256

4)Grant to NG : 8,452

5)Subsidies : 13,814

6) others : 48

7)Provincial : 79,351

8) Development and net : 28,459

9) PSDP : 41,716

The provincial pool is distributed according to population formula.

Also you can see very well, the cuts will be done at which level to balance the budget and what will be the sources of deficit financing.

There is an interesting site on web giving up the break up of employees in Federal service according to domicile.

Also there is break up of SHO`s and high ranking police officers in different Thanas in Sind.

If you are interested I can post it or I will give you the link to see for yourself.

It would be also interesting to see the tax revenues from different areas. It would be interesting because of my earlier presumptions.

As Federal Government income includes both Federal and Provincial Revenues and includes Income Tax, Property Tax, Excise duty, Sales Tax, Motor Vehicle Tax, Surcharges etc etc, it would be interesting to see the break-up of these Tax Rupees from different Industries, Agriculture, Minerals etc.

The Federal Government operation does not give a break up from different areas of Pakistan.

TAhmed 3213

Just my laziness, to move out or order some books on statistics. The statistics which is available on internet can give an idea, but not concretely.

I will put it later.

As far as transfer of wealth to Punjab. Mian Zahid Sarfaraz, had done the press conference, where he had alleged this with facts and figures, while Nawaz Sharif Government was toppled for first time.

Basically you have to see how money is moving. Roughly seventy percent of our budget (after debt financing) is spent on army. Who is the major beneficiary of this arrangement. Majority of army personnel. All the ordinance factories and its workers and other employment by Armed forces.

A very small amount of budget is transferred back to provinces according to population.

Out of total revenue of Sind collected by center (before octroi tax was also taken by center) roughly 4% of the total collection by Sind reaches back to it.

Is it appalling?

Although I agree with you regarding the poor people of all parts of Pakistan needs to be elevated.

But the dispensation in past has produced a significant political awakening in smaller provinces regarding their rights. But for the same reason majority of Punjab particularly upper Punjab although living in poor condition has been left behind, politically.

I would be very happy if leadership from Punjab arises which can join the rest of Pakistan for elevation of the plight of poor people of Pakistan.

There is no such thing in sight yet. (Although individually some leaders of Punjab are taking part in different struggle, but without much backing from Punjab)

As said earlier I will try to post statistics from Government site.

krashid #553 Please state the issue on which you would expect me to change my views: is it (a) the view that provinces should be abolished since they serve no purpose? or (b) that there has been a net transfer of wealth belonging to the smaller provinces to the Panjab? or (c) that there has been a net transfer of wealth belonging to other ethnic groups to Panjabis as an ethnic group? Then provide the facts to back your contentions. Then we can talk. Please dont expect me to say yes to your vague feelings that somehow Panjabis are benefitting at the expense of other people without being clear on either the issue or presenting any facts at all. As I said before, I think this is the wrong way to look at things: we should think in terms of how things can be improved for all Pakistanis, particularly the poorest ones regardless of what ethnic or religious group they belong to.

TAhmed 321#

Suppose sir the facts I have given can be substantiated by figures.

Would you reconsider your stand then.

If not I have no intention of continuing.

And backing off referred to local collection of taxes to be spent locally.

Shammi: Thanks for the kind words. I`ll be in touch.

krashid #549 I am sorry but your post is totally incomprehensible. E.g.

TAhmed #544

``Although you are backing of and rightly so.``

I assume you mean backing off from my statement that we should abolish provinces. Where do you see that in my previous post? Or is it something else I am backing off from?

``When you are talking about elimination of provinces, you have to presuppose that Pakistan is composed of only one cultural unit and is homogenous.``

Are the provinces homogenous? Is a district homogenous, with the interests of the landlord being the same as that of the bureaucrat or a peasant or a retiree from military service or a school child? Is even a small community of 20 people homogenous? Of course not. Why are you so hung up about provinces being homogenous?

``I am unable to provide figure.``

In the interests of a reasonable discussion, one should not make assertions without bothering to check the facts. Your ``rough idea`` is rubbish - get the facts or be honest and admit you do not have the facts.

``Can you tell me why Sind is demanding water distribution according to 1991 accord and Punjab is demanding according to 1994 (non existent accord).``

Can you tell me why you refer to Sind and Panjab as if they are individual persons? These are political boundaries.

``In a homogenous country how you are going to resolve. Do you think demography of Sind will be changed by abolition of provinces and more water will be coming to Sind. What means apart from slogan do you think is suitable to resolve this matter even after abolition of provinces.``

How does abolition of provinces create a homogenous country? The people dont change, and as I said no two people have the same interests. Issues of water sharing are legitimate issues, as are others.

``Sind says that police officers are from Punjab in Sind. While police officers are from Punjab in Punjab. What constitutional arrangement do you see to correct the situation.``

Do you have any figures on which you base your assumption that there are more police officers from the Punjab than Sind, or is this based on what ``Sind`` (which, as I mentioned, is not a person and as such does not ``say`` anything) says?

``What constitutional measure you want to put so that the army is more homogenous in its recruitment from different parts of Pakistan.``

Get the figures, first, then talk to me about homogenous.

``Instead of abolishing provinces, Would`nt it better to do more justice to different regions and call them administrative provinces.``

Once again, justice is done to people, not to political entities. Before replying, sit and think a bit on what I am trying to get into your head.

``Instead of treating the disease, you just want to abolish provinces for no reason.``

I explained to you what the disease was and the treatment, and that provinces were irrelevant to solving it. You did not do me the courtesy of trying to understand what I was trying to tell you. I am sorry, but from previous interactions, I had expected something more intelligent from you.

Sameer JB#

The question is not of federal structure.

The question is of federating units.

What arrangement is feasible which can keep all federating units reasonably happy.

The example of Bengal is useless, because they already showed that it was a gross injustice and fought for independence. Do you think there was any other reason basically apart from economics which led them to this drastic action.

Pakistan resolution was basically a union of federating units.

And the demand of smaller provinces are to leave only three areas to Federal structure. Defense, Currency and Foreign Affairs.

The Federal structure is trying to collect as much money from units as possible. Even the simple octroi tax (like toll booth in New York) is now collected by Federal Structure in Pakistan.

Why should the small units continue to pay Bhatta is beyond my comprehension.

The only solution is a reasonable arrangement among different parts of Pakistan to make it more equitable.

Anything short of that is only going to prolong suffering of all of Pakistanis.

I read daily news about illegal immigrants mostly from Gujrat, Gujranwala and Lahore being caught. It only depicts situation in Punjab is also bad.

There is no solution to it. Either a more just arrangement or Seperation so that each unit devotes its energy to its own people.

TAhmed #544

Although you are backing of and rightly so.

When you are talking about elimination of provinces, you have to presuppose that Pakistan is composed of only one cultural unit and is homogenous.

I am unable to provide figure. But to give you a rough idea. Baluchistan is the biggest mineral producer including Sui gas. Karachi has the highest industrial output. Most of the dams are located in NWFP. Although Punjab is the largest agriculture producer, but Sind is not far behind.

Can you tell me why Sind is demanding water distribution according to 1991 accord and Punjab is demanding according to 1994 (non existent accord).

In a homogenous country how you are going to resolve. Do you think demography of Sind will be changed by abolition of provinces and more water will be coming to Sind.

What means apart from slogan do you think is suitable to resolve this matter even after abolition of provinces.

Sind says that police officers are from Punjab in Sind. While police officers are from Punjab in Punjab. What constitutional arrangement do you see to correct the situation.

What constitutional measure you want to put so that the army is more homogenous in its recruitment from different parts of Pakistan.

Instead of abolishing provinces, Would`nt it better to do more justice to different regions and call them administrative provinces.

Once the justice is there, it won`t matter much if you call provinces tehsil or division or other administrative unit.

Instead of treating the disease, you just want to abolish provinces for no reason.

All elections, past and present, are won by electioneering. No reason to get excited about a particular election, held in 1939, 1946, 1970, 1987 or any future election.

Here is a quote from an article by Ishtiaq Ahmed, I found at http://sangat.org

Role of Islam, National Identity and Secular Aspirations

Ishtiaq Ahmed

Department of Political Science

Stockholm University

Role of Islam in the legitimization of Muslim Nationalism

The broad contours of the Pakistani national identity were more or less spelt out in the wake of the events which unfolded rapidly after the Lahore Resolution of 1940. The Muslim League rejected the Indian National Congress`s stand that all Indians, irrespective of their religious and cultural affiliations, constituted a composite, territorial, secular nation. The Muslim League asserted instead that Indian Muslims were a distinct nation by virtue of their religious faith and culture. Further, that the political goal of such a nation was to work towards some sort of a separate political entity in the subcontinent. Consequently it launched various initiatives to expand its support base among the Muslims. It devised a broad rather than a narrow definition of a Muslim: all those who had entered Islam as their religion in the census records were accepted as members. Thus persons belonging to the various Sunni and Shia sub-sects, the Ahmadiyya community, the various regional forces and linguistic nationalities, and even Muslims of Marxist inclination were admitted as members and activists.

[In the crucial 1945-46 election campaign, the Muslim League relied heavily upon Islamic appeals to mobilize popular support for the Pakistan scheme. Young students from the United Provinces and Punjab joined efforts with ulama and pirs to popularize the idea of Pakistan. Hindus and Sikhs were condemned as exploiters and demonized as infidels. Wild promises were made of restoring the glory of Islam In The Future Muslim State. The stranglehold of moneylenders was to be broken and a social order based on Islamic social justice was to be realized. Muslims who did not support the demand for Pakistan were denounced as renegades to Islam. In some cases, fatwas were also issued to the effect that Muslims who opposed the creation of Pakistan were to be denied a proper Islamic burial. These measures were extremely effective and the Muslim voters gave a clear verdict in favor of Pakistan.] Thus from the very onset, the Pakistan scheme was popularized under heavy debt to Islam. Just to put the record straight, the Hindu Mahasabha, RSS, the Akali Dal, the Singh Sabha, especially its stalwarts such as Master Tara Singh, and even sections of Congress were involved in intensifying the communal divide.

To cut a very long story short, after Jinnah gave the call for direct action on 29 July 1946, communal riots broke out in Calcutta on 16 August. At that time Bengal was under a Muslim League government headed by Hussain Shaheed Suhrawardy. The Great Calcutta Killings of August 1946 became a contagion. In Noakhali Muslims attacked Hindus with great brutality. A Hindu reaction in Bihar proved even more ferocious and gory. Muslims were hunted down and killed in the hundreds. In the spring of 1947 the Muslim League started its `direct action` in Punjab. It soon degenerated into communal riots. It ended in the infamous ethnic cleansing of Punjab. The British Government in the announcement of 3 June 1947 conceded the partition of India, Bengal and Punjab.

The forced migration, which ensued inevitably, meant that some 14-17 million Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs crossed the India-Pakistan border in either direction. More than one million lost their lives. Some 200,000 women were abducted. Cases of rape and other grievous indignities were counted in the thousands. Ethnic cleansing was almost complete in Punjab. The trauma of partition inevitably sowed seeds of hatred and mistrust between the two countries and their peoples.

It is not surprising that after such a cataclysmal rupture with the rest of India, Pakistan could not simply assert its national identity as a mere variant of India.

dost-mittar: I did not complete the article you mentioned. I realized that I do not know much about economics to write an article. Whatever, I thought of novel approach to revive Pakistani economy has been already mentioned in my posts. Basically, I wanted to stress of Pakistanis religion related spendings. I was going to argue for as much as one billion dollars per year to be part of consumer spender to boost economy instead of spending on hajj, umrah and qurbani, none of which is farz in Islam. This is the main reason for our continuous lower saving rate even when India was 20 percent poorer than Pakistanis (most of last 53 years, according to per capita income).

Had I written that article, I might have been charged again for religion bashing in the name of revival of economy.

Krashid:

[And although Punjab might agree to abolition of provinces but will not agree to local collection of revenue to be spent locally.]

That kind of equation is not practiced anywhere in the world. In USA, only state taxes are fully spend on the state whereas federal taxes are disbursed after taking care of federal expenses. If the federal taxes are to be disbursed on population basis, Punjab in Pakistan and California in USA do get lion share of federal distribution. There is small amount of federal money both in USA and Pakistan that is disbursed to the needy satates or provinces in order to elevate the standard of poor states (as in the case of Mississippi and Alabama).

Pakistan needs to clearly distinguish taxes as federal and provincial. The provincial are to be spend on provinces but Karachi will still be unhappy if their money goes to Tharparker or Mirpur Khas. The solution is division of provincial taxes as provincial and city taxes. What we really need is a fair system and fair laws. Similarly deficit financing should not be the sole headache of federal government.

Should Karnatka and Tamil Nadu demand most of the money earned in IT sector to spend on those two sataes only? It was the same problem between Bangladesh and Pakistan before 1971. Their share of revenue was 19 percent and demand was for 56 percent plus the revenues from Jute export. They did not want to hear export related activities and foreign exchange earned to be federal income, because they spent money for generating foreign exchange. There was no way they could be given 56 percent of federal revenue. Federal government could simply used up all the revenues in defense, administration and repayment of loans and leave may be 3-4 percent for provinces. In that case they could give 56 percent of the 4 percent to Bangladesh. Pakistan was not cheating and I guess still not cheating big time as Karachi or smaller provinces claim. Look at Bangladesh GDP and per capita income, it is much less than Pakistan. Pakistanis do not go to Bangladesh to find work at fisheries, they come to Karachi. I guarentee you if (God forbid) any smaller province of Pakistan is independent of federal government, they will be poorer than now. How much revenues Balochi, NWFP or Sindhi cities excluding Karachi generate? Many cities will not have money to run city administration. Should the oil producing provinces of OPEC countries demand all the revenues from exporting oil? Jeddah, Mecca and Medina will be back to deserts with few dates trees.

The relationship between provinces is like a barter system. If NWFP wants royalty on energy and taxes from tobacco, they will have to pay more for wheat and perhaps no mangoes and babnana from Sindh or Punjab.

Re: Tahmed321 #544

``it is time we forgot about these stupid ethnic, religious and other distinctions and started seeing all people as brothers and sisters ``

Bravo! Well said. BTW, Tahmed321, do you happen to live close to Washington DC? Say within a couple of hours driving distance? If so, I would definitely like to meet you one day in person. If you feel more comfortable writing me directly, my email address is shammi@onebox.com. Thank you.

krashid #542 You seem to think that Panjab beneficiary of taxes and government income generated in other provinces. I am not too sure. I have not looked at the figures, and so would appreciate the source of your beliefs. Also, does Panjab include Islamabad in your calculations, and if so how is the situation like with Panjab sans Islamabad?

In any case, this is not the right way to look at things, and just because I am a Panjabi does not mean that you should think I care where Panjab comes out in all this - it is time we forgot about these stupid ethnic, religious and other distinctions and started seeing all people as brothers and sisters (unless an individual is proven guilty in which case whether the rascal is a Panjabi or a Sindhi or a Christian or a Muslim does not matter).

The questions to ask are (a) what activities should the federal government perform vs. the local government vs. the private sector vs. NGOs); (b) How does one set up an incentives and controls structure to make sure that all parties (govt, private sector, NGOs) earn through honest work, not simply due to being in a privileged position (as is the case with govt officials at all levels in all provinces)?

If these questions are answered in a sensible manner and based on some well-understood lessons learnt across the world the past 50 years, I can assure you that the question of inter-regional transfers will become totally irrelevant to the discussion. The question would be: How does one give people the incentive to be creative and enterprising and hard-working.

krashid #541

``If that is so instead of sending them to me, you come to me. I know the treatment of schizophreania better than treating poverty and oppressed state.``

Shukriya janab,

Neem hakim khatraye jaan!! We our our own oujha and jadugar here. I will send them also to you. Together you all can open a big dukaan.

TAhmed 321 #534

Omar Asghar in a recent interview categorically denied giving any power to levy taxes by local bodies.

I agree with you regarding abolition of provinces altogether.

The situation on ground or current situation in Pakistan does not make it possible.

I am not mentioning anti Government forces.

I am talking about meeting of IRSA and other Government bodies where provinces are putting their grievances against center.

Moreover abolition of provinces with local collection of revenue will be disastrous for Punjab. And although Punjab might agree to abolition of provinces but will not agree to local collection of revenue to be spent locally.

As Baluchistan is full of minerals. Karachi has port and Sind agriculture. NWFP demands royalty of dams which are located mostly in NWFP.

With the current power structure in Pakistan, the best thing which can work out and everybody will be happy is work out a solution among provinces.

Smaller provinces will not agree to abolition of provinces as that is their only forum of grievances. And Punjab will not agree to local collection of revenue to be spent locally as it will have very negative impact on its economy.

Can you agree Punjab on local collection of revenue to be spent locally? If you can do so, I will assure of abolition of provinces.

friend #537

Oh I thought not only India is the world`s largest democracy, but is brimming with secularists and democrats.

If that is so instead of sending them to me, you come to me. I know the treatment of schizophreania better than treating poverty and oppressed state.

Harimau #538

Is your post directed against anal-retentive Pakistani Muslim TAhmed 321 or anal-retentive Indian Muslim Studebaker.

You have not clarified.

Ref Farzana Versey #: 484

[Empathy: “Krashid, Ali1, Urstruly: Farzana says you have a mind full of pigeon-crap”]

You did say `mind full of pigeon-crap`, didn`t you? What would that be?

How about defining religion, while you are at it?

Ref tahmed321 #: 531

[harimau #528 Preaching as usual I see. Fascinating how a fellow who obviously despises everything about Pakistan cant seem to get away from discussing his hatreds with Pakistanis either.]

Studebaker to whome #528 is addressed is an Indian Muslim peddling used cars on the Chowk. Get the nationalities of verious people straight in your head. That is, if you have any attention span beyond 3 minutes.

[Try some laxatives - those might help where all other pills have failed.]

The ones who go by the rulebook and don`t deviate from it for whatever reason are called anal-retentive. The followers of Al-Kitab qualify eminently for that term. However, any amount of laxatives is not going to get the sh!t out of their brains.

krashid #530

``You want to keep all good people to yourself and sending all Maleech and dirt of India to us.``

Keep them to yourself Sir.

They are habituated to living in gutter.``

Yaar hakim, that`s why I am sending them to you..) they find that they are not habituated to living in my place.

Ref AAmir #: 529

You said {Yes ayurvedic colege & yoga centers only indicate the kind of emphasis hindutva govt wants to put in.}

You could always apply for the BUMS degree at the University of Poona.

In case you think I am making this up, on my last trip to Bombay I saw this degree on a board outside a doctor`s office in Mahim.

I believe it stands for Bachelor of Unani Medical System.

So, equal rights for Unani and Ayurvedic systems are already there in India, that too in Poona, located in Hindutva-oriented, Shiv Sena dominated Maharashtra.

krashid #515 I thought the local governments would have enhanced revenue collecting powers. That is the way to give them teeth: give them resources. As for provincial governments, I think we dont need provinces at all. They add nothing of value other than give parochial politicians a tabla to play with and cause divisions among people.

Sameer #510 I agree that the military has done enough damage to Pakistan, and future historians will probably appreciate the damage much more than we do today. You ask ``By the way, can you tell me why Musharraf wants to remain president even if there are election before October 2002.`` Same reason so many other men love power - I am sure there is a ``power gene`` somewhere in our genome. Also, it is hard to get off a tiger, and a military takeover basically puts the generals in that spot. What we need is for the SC to come out loud and clear that the military takeover was the only solution given what NS was trying to do, and that the generals will have earned the nation`s gratitude if they step totally away in 2002. That way no one gets hurt and we have another attempt at democracy and would-be mard-i-momins like NS will realize that if they try to become civilian dictators the military will be back.

Shammi #511 On patwaris and land records: they are trying in Pakistan in a couple of places as well to computerize patwari records. When I was in Pakistan last time I invested in a 2 inch thick book on the land record system there. It looks pretty grim for anyone trying to computerize: the units of measure vary depending on where you are and so forth. But...I think the mighty patwaris days are numbered since there is just too much pressure to modernize land records.

harimau #528 Preaching as usual I see. Fascinating how a fellow who obviously despises everything about Pakistan cant seem to get away from discussing his hatreds with Pakistanis either. Try some laxatives - those might help where all other pills have failed.

Friend #526

That is bad that you want to send them to my clinic.

You want to keep all good people to yourself and sending all Maleech and dirt of India to us.

Keep them to yourself Sir.

They are habituated to living in gutter.

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Ref Studebaker #: 512

[2/ I mention ,Indian muslim know how POOR india is ,we DONT WANT HINDUTVA GOVT Baniya money,We havent .We want coperation in recognition of established institutions Accreditions &endorsement as Institutions established by Sangh Parivar like Veda center ,Sanskrit univ, Ashram of YOga ,AShrams of dubioius activities of sex orgy & drugs in rajnesh to many swamis & GODS ashrams for western perverts ,drop outs, hippies & druggies.]

Is the Rajneesh center in Poona funded by the Government of India? Is the Rajneesh Ashram granting degrees in sexology recognized by the Govt of India and the University Grants Commission? Even if that is the case, what use is such a degree?

You are ranting and raving for nothing. Muslims can send their children to school just like Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, Jains, and Parsis do. If instead, you use your children to weave carpets, roll beedis, tan leather, make brass vessels or do embroidery work, it may teach them a craft but it is not going to earn them the livelihood their grandparents earned.

Anybody can start an elementary school or a high school in India and get the school recognition. The children can write their Plus Two exams and apply to any existing college or university. Just to please you people, Urdu is offered as a language of study in places such as Kerala and Tamil Nadu where even the Muslims don`t speak that language. But you folks have to drag your butts out of bed and to school daily if you want an education. And you need to stop worrying about boys and girls going to school together. That kind of thinking is what is going to prevent the girls from attending school.

Get your house in order.

Shammi: Good to hear from you. I will try to respond a bit later today once I get some things out of the way.

Sameer: Same as above for you too, sir.

krashid #524

``Why exporting them to some other country?

Put those Mallech people of uncertain country in a dungeon and blast them.

You take too much pains for exporting them.``

Doctor sahib, even that is too much trouble. I will send them to your clinic. That will be their worst nightmare ..)

#Studebaker

I mention ,Indian muslim know how POOR india is ,we DONT WANT HINDUTVA GOVT Baniya money,We havent .We want coperation in recognition of established institutions Accreditions &endorsement as Institutions established by Sangh Parivar like

Veda center ,Sanskrit univ, Ashram of YOga ,AShrams of dubioius activities of sex orgy & drugs in rajnesh to many swamis & GODS ashrams for western perverts ,drop outs, hippies & druggies.



which institutions are you talking about in particular? Do you want the NCERT/UGC to recognise these muslim institutions? Do they meet the requirements? About the ``Institutions established by Sangh Parivar``, none of them have contributed anything to raise the literacy level of India despite the alleged accredition/ endorsement they get. Heck, they did`nt even exist till a few years ago. Inspite of the bad implementation on ground, corporation schools and govt. colleges are still the ones doing the fine job of educating the masses. Do you expect the corresponding muslim institutions will really deliver and recognition is the only obstacle on the way? And you havent answered my question, despite the intense hardships hindu masses face, most still manage to send their wards to any sub-standard corporation school for some education. Why arent the muslim masses doing the same - and this is not a MYTH, it is plain from the govt. statistics on enrollment? Are they refused/ill-treated/discriminated? Why do some muslims feel more comfortable sending their wards to Muslim institutions or not sending them at all?

In summary, i believe many Hindus genuinely understand the problems faced by Indian muslims and are aware of the groundswell of hostility that has cropped up against them in recent years. You can witness that concern even here at chowk, where despite your most insulting posts on Hinduism some of us are still interested in finding what exactly is wrong and how might it be fixed. Ultimately, the wellbeing of minorities is not guaranteed by the goodwill of the majority. Muslim problems are not going to vanish in thin air even if the ``Hindutva baniya govt`` is replaced by a ``secular govt`` for eternity. One needs a good system to ENSURE that even a hostile govt cannot derail the advancement of minorities. Now, you tell us, has the Indian education system placed impediments on muslim education?

Friend # Why exporting them to some other country?

Put those Mallech people of uncertain country in a dungeon and blast them.

You take too much pains for exporting them.

Many many thanks to all from the bottom of my heart for participating in a wonderful discussion on this thread. I doubt if I will ever be able to repeat this level of active participation. This was a very pleasant but time consuming experience.

Khuda Hafiz, Sat Sri Akal and Namaste

Love you all,

Sameer

From e.Nation, Sunday Review section

Democracy and diplomacy

Ghulam Asghar Khan

The latest Russo-French move in the UN Security Council for the imposition of sanctions against Pakistan for its alleged support to the Taliban is a very serious issue and indicates an absolute diplomatic failure on the international front. The French support to Russia is not to be brushed aside as France is the most powerful member of the European Union. This sinister move will add to our isolation, which is already telling on us. On the other hand, the Indian Prime Minister, Vajpayee and his foreign minister, Jaswant Singh, are also on the move to isolate Pakistan while our foreign office has been thumping the drum to project its imaginary diplomatic successes. The government emphasis seems not to cultivate the world opinion but to waste all its energies to mislead the nation by creating the euphoria of diplomatic conquests one after the other which is a facade.

Looking back in our history, over half a century was spent in pursuing one goal, the implementation of the UN resolution of 1948 on Kashmir. Our Kashmir policy determined our relationships in the international community and gradually we lost ground because we allowed the rulers and the masses to be swayed away by aggressive emotionalism rather than reason and logic. Today`s world has shrunk to a global village and diplomacy has become an art to establish inter-state relations on the basis of equality keeping in view the national interest.

National interests are best served by a policy of friendship and not by confrontation and an aggressive stance on the diplomatic front. The concept of eternal friendships does not exist in the books of diplomacy because all the national policies are framed keeping in view the national interest. The diplomatic concept of friendships and enmities keeps on changing with the changing interests of the nations. In the present world scenario, today`s friends can be tomorrow`s enemies and vice versa.

Pakistan, since its independence could not play a vital role in the field of international relations and diplomacy and suffered because most of the rulers, whether politicians or generals were hard liners and marched on a collision course, especially with India over the Kashmir issue. In fact, since 1948, this issue was exploited by the rulers to prolong their hold on power while no efforts were made at the diplomatic level to solve it. This perhaps, has been the main reason that Pakistan has not been able to rise to its full potential in any field. It is an established fact that foreign policy is built on logic and not on emotions, and is not based on expediency. It is framed keeping in view the wider national interests and long term benefits to the state, but to successfully achieve these ends, the methodology differs at different times. In our wisdom, we perhaps failed to realize that world diplomacy was a game of chess and every country that plays watches its national interests and every move is made to achieve that goal. The winner is the country that keeps its cool.

To Sameer :

after reading your article I became more busy with my work than ever because I understood that I am called a professional and so I should be. However, now as this article is going to be moved out of the front page I thought I should post my thoughts for everyone to read my reaction.

quoting you ``The pre-occupation with insignificant extremes in the name of religion is misplaced, misguided and retrogressive.``

you made an excellent point. It seems that religious fundamentalism and blame game are some of the things that our south asians are occupied with these days. Where as, these self proclaimed patriots are missing the most OBVIOUS issues. As you said

``500 million South Asians live in absolute poverty, 230 million South Asians lack protection from disease, 620 million have no access to safe drinking water, 800 million lack decent sanitation, 50% of the world`s illiterates is in South Asia and 90% of the world`s blind are in South Asia.``

such glaring-in-the-eye and slap-on-the-face issues are conviniently ignored by these so called patriots in order to pursue some BS religious agendas.

south asians really need some shock treatment to make them aware of their immediate responsibilities. They need understand that living in poverty is the most demeaning thing to NATIONAL HONOUR. Clearly we need and deserve better than this. A war should be waged on poverty, illiteracy and other satan incarnations. Pursuing some BS religious agenda ain`t gonna fetch any bread ( which we need the most ).

rajanjua # 509: I am sure Muslim scolars will have some other interpretation of aal-e-Ibrahim that excludes modern day Jews. According to Muslim belief, modern Jews are not following the true message of Moses which is supposed to be same as Islam, although I doubt if Ka`aba or ``hajr-e-aswad was ever important to Jews. Otherwise there much be some mention of that somewhere in Jewish literature.

One very knowledgeable individual about Islam once told me that actually Judaism and Islam are much closer religions (kosher, one God etc), it is the politics (Israel) that has created hatred. He gave me several examples of practices. Anyway, when I inquired if Sufism and Sikhism have great commonalities but it is/ was the politics that led to bloodbath and hatred during partition. Immediately he started mentioning the differences between the two. The guy was speechless when I pointed at selectivity and subjectivity in his arguement, similarities in one comparison and differences in the other. I do not understand why we have such a low regard for anything created in our backyard and appreciation for everything created overthere.

On a lighter note, the concept of aal-e-Ibrahim does help in dating Jewish girls. Few years ago, I used it successfully with a Jewish girl. Similarly, aal-e-Muhammad is also very helpful with shia girls. Both terms help in bowing your head to their noble lineages.

Muslaman da ka`m hey sachhe dil naal koshish karna, baqi Allah di marzi!

krashid #513

``Friend #501

May be you are still too soft on Muslims and Kashmiris. That is why their attitude is so bad.

Why don`t you bomb them once and for all to teach them the correct behaviour.``

I have another solution, they should all be exported to USofA or to Arabia. They are not this sensitive (and are not allowed to be) about Time magazine in those places.

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/apr2001-weekly/nos-22-04-2001/dia.htm#1

Setting an even bloodier agenda

Arif Jamal feels the mood at the Lashkar-e-Taiba ijtima in Muridke, and sees a further hardening of position

The Lashkar-e-Taiba rarely plays bluff. It somehow manages to do what it promises. That is one of the secrets of its success. In 1999, it promised to take the guerrilla war inside India from the Occupied Kashmir if the Indians did not grant Kashmiris the freedom. It carried out a high-profile guerrilla attack on a military camp of the Indian army inside the Red Fort in Delhi in December 2000. Its guerrillas then managed to escape from the Red Fort with ease. The embarrassed and angered Indian security agencies have not been able to track them down.

The Lashkar has once again announced its idol-bashing agenda, which it intends to carry out inside India. It is hardening its position more and more with the passage of time.

Speaker after speaker at its three-day annual convention at Muridke from April 13 to April 15 pledged to revive the history of demolishing idols in India. They promised hoisting the flag of Islam on Hindu temples following the example of Mehmood Ghaznvi who, according to them, repeatedly attacked India in order to demolish a legendary temple at the Somnath. At the same time, they pledged to continue suicide attacks in the Occupied Kashmir.

The annual convention set the agenda for jehad in the Occupied Kashmir during the coming summer which, the speakers vowed, would be bloodier than the past because more jehad operations will be carried out deep inside India now than what was being done previously.

The fedayee (suicidal) attacks by Lashkar-e-Taiba mujahideen -- which started after then Pakistani Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif announced a pull-out from the heights of Kargil in the Indian occupied territory in July 1999 -- have been a great success. The popularity of fedayee operations has made Lashkar-e-Taiba to continue them even at the cost of losing its highly trained cadre.

According to Maulana Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi, the Lashkar`s Supreme Commander, 95 fedayeen killed 891 Indian soldiers during these operations in 2000. Fedayeen, too, lost 24 of their men, he said. During the current year, 54 fedayeen have killed 262 Indian soldiers while they lost only 13 of them, he added. The Lashkar claims killing 14,369 Indian soldiers in last 11 years. It also lost 1,100 of its mujahideen, during these operations.

The Lashkar faced the biggest challenge of its life when one and a half year ago came into being another jehadi organisation, led by Maulana Masood Azhar who was released from an Indian jail in return for a hijacked plane during December 1999. Most mujahideen believed that the new organisation, Jaish-e-Muhammad (the Army of Muhammad), had been set up to cut the Lashkar to size. Despite having all the resources at its disposal, Jaish-e-Mohammad, however, failed to deliver and dislodge the Lashkar from its position of being at the forefront of jehad in the Occupied Kashmir. Here too the fedayee attacks have played an important role in keep the Lashkar ahead of other organisations. And considering the frequency and success of these attacks, there is no possibility of any other organisation replacing it or even catching it up in near future.

It is also for the first time that the leaders of the Lashkar-e-Taiba have publicly taken a hard line against missionary schools in Pakistan. Lashkar`s Amir Hafiz Saeed strongly urged the participants of the annual convention to start the process of Islamisation from their families by throwing out the sources of the Western culture like television sets. He also urged them not to send their children to missionary schools and discourage the use of neckties. He told the participants to highlight the distortions missionary schools create in the society. All the problems we face today are created by these schools, Saeed said, equating these institutions with slaughterhouses where the future of the Muslim youth is being sacrificed.

The Lashkar faced another challenge when the Great Britain designated it as a terrorist organisation and banned its operations on the British territory. Its current hard line against missionary schools seems to be the result of this British policy. It is likely to further harden its position if the United States also designated it as a terrorist organisation when Washington issues its annual report on international terrorism in May.

This also prompted the Supreme Commander to accuse the West, particularly the United States, Israel and France, of helping the Indian forces against the mujahideen.

The conditions in which the Lashkar-e-Taiba is waging jihad in the Occupied Kashmir, meanwhile, are becoming increasingly difficult. Under the Western pressure, the Pakistani government has curbed some of its activities by advising it to adopt a low profile. The government has also stopped the Lashkar from holding its annual convention in the first week of last November making 2000 the only year when it could not hold its convention on the dates announced earlier, a custom in vogue since it was founded over a decade ago. The Lashkar had to compromise and announce to hold the delayed convention in April 2001 in Muzaffarabad, theoretically outside Pakistan. However, at the eleventh hour it was allowed to hold the convention in Muridke.

It is for the first time in last 11 years that the Lashkar did not publicise the holding of the convention. Instead of calling it an annual convention, it is dubbed as a training session for cadres. In the past the convention used to be an occasion when the Lashkar would take its message to every neighborhood with the help of graffiti, banners, handbills, and the word of mouth. It is also for the first time that it did not invite non-members to attend the convention although a large number of people did come on their own.

The convention saw an extremely tightened security in and around its venue. The local administration had to seal the town of Muridke for three consecutive days for all practical purposes. All the shops were and bazaars were also forced to shut down. The vehicles from the outside were not allowed to enter the town. There was an undeclared curfew.

But all the police pickets and frequenting patrolling by the security personnel could not stop a minor explosion from taking place just two kilometers away from the venue of the convention.

The Lashkar leadership was very critical of the security measures. But the local administration justified these extreme measures on the basis of the fact that bomb explosions have been taken place on the occasions of the Lashkar`s annual conventions for the last three years.

Another feature of the convention was the younger look of its participants than that in the past. With over 200,000 hardcore cadres, the Lashkar has emerged as the biggest jehadi organisation which has found a new source of devoted cadres in the Ad-Dawah schools. The change of look owes to the participation of young boys from these schools number of which has increased to 127 in last three years.

The Lashkar also operates six private military training camps in Pakistan and Azad Kashmir where several thousands cadres are given both the military and religious education. And religious indoctrination for the cadres is as important as the military training is. More stress on religious indoctrination is placed in the beginning of the training programmes. The idea behind this exercise being that a better Muslim would make a better mujahid.

With more than 2,200 unit offices across the country and over two dozen launching camps along the line of control, the Lashkar boasts of of the biggest jehadi network in Pakistan.

The followers of the Lashkar-i-Taiba come from all walks of life from the defense and nuclear establishment to the industrial labour. However, the graph of its popularity among the lower classes is much higher than in the middle and upper classes. With the growing number of Ad-Dawah schools, it is succeeding in making inroads into the middle class as well. It is not targeting only the youth and is giving equal importance to converting women into its supporters, without which, it says, it cannot realise the dream of establishing the kind of society it wants to create in Pakistan and elsewhere. It has become a reality in the modern day Pakistan that cannot be wished away.

Sameer JB and TAhmed.

I will put my 0 cent worth to the discussion.

Why is there talk of check and balance only at local level when they will have basically no power. They will be given money like Oont Ke Mun Mein Zeera and to play with it. And be happy.

While the real people at top will continue to deal the dealings. Like the power of NAB is an invitation to rampant corruption (and God knows how much is in process already). Unethical absolute power of Army is leading to almost daily arrest of fake majors and fake army personnel. Who knows and for how long will this absolute power be pious is a matter to be seen. But as a scientific person with much belief in human corruption, I would say that it is either a mirage or at most limited to Musharraf and few of his colleagues.

Local level power is good only in the context of a Provincial and National Power as it will be an effective check on political parties to take care of the problems of people at the local level. And be ready to suffer the wrath of people when they desire to go out of hand. Without a National or Provincial party, these local bodies will be like isolated islands who will be manipulated to elect real looters of nation who have been ruling all along (except that their power was curtailed by Z.A. Bhutto for a brief period).

So although I am in favor of local bodies election, which should preferably be held on the basis of political parties. But, this should in no way direct one`s attention away from Provincial and National political process.

Instead of creating correct people for the corrupt institutions, which leads to more corruption with time as is evidenced all along the history of Pakistan. Why not try to create correct institutions which should reflect the will of people.

IAS #500

The basic flaw of your logic is you are trying to create India out of a multi linguistic, multi culture and multi religious region.

And as long as this artificial entity of phoenix will be imposed on people, they will continue to resist to keep their real identities.

Your logic at most is old wine in new bottle.

Eliminate India. Look at the people and their problems. All the problems which India faces will be eliminated.

Friend #501

May be you are still too soft on Muslims and Kashmiris. That is why their attitude is so bad.

Why don`t you bomb them once and for all to teach them the correct behaviour.

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Tahmed321 #508

``If by civilian administration you mean the district management down to local patwaris...``

That statement caught my attention. As you probably know, the institution of the patwari was first created by the Mughals (Akbar the Great, I think) to improve the system of land revenue collection. The British adopted it, and so did India and Pakistan. The Patwari is the revenue agent at the village/tehsil level in India and Pakistan. This person has enormous power since he/she records all land-related transacations, and can with a single stroke of a pen cause enormous hardship to farmers/land owners. (e.g. make deeds illegible, transfer land illegaly, lose/misplace deeds, etc.). The lack of transparency in his operations has been a source of much corruption in India (and possibly Pakistan, as well). In India, to lend some transparency into the Patwari`s workings, moves are afoot to convert all land records to a computerized form, and post them on the web so that the stranglehold of the Patwari can be broken. Many states are experimenting with this. Eventually, it is hoped, that farmers need only go to a local internet kiosk and check their land records (or have someone they trust do so) instead of begging the Patwari to do so for a fee.

Tahmed321: All the things I mentioned in my last post were to build an image of present set-up in the light of their flip-flopping and track record. Considering different indicators provide a window to gaze into things to come. Future of Devolution plan is one such area. They never were and still not interested in controlling every small power base at district level. Their interest is controlling the national agenda that includes foreign policy, defense and revenues. For example if they want to have the current level of bilateral relations with India, nothing like Lahore initiative will be possible with a weakened central government. In principle, I agree with the need of devolution and empowerment at grass-root level. At the same time I have no illusion about who will come out to rule the district level administrations in most districts. In Rawalpindi, it will be Sh. Rashid group, in Islamabad, whoever is backed by pir of Golrha Sharif, in Gujrat, Chaudhries and in Karachi, MQM. Am I wrong? If not, then how these people will turn as ideal public servants? They had many chances to do it in the past. If they disqualify all of them (they will not do it to King`s party members), the sons, brothers and nephews of these people will win. That is why, I support more democracy, more frequent elections, more competition until a buildup of significant number of apt leaders to win. If Imran Khan is good, he has more chances of winning in one of 5 elections in the next ten years than just one or two. Working to improve the system is better than truncating it. In an ideal situation, corruption and feudalism are unacceptable but what to do until a utopian situation arises. One way to accelerate it is to make corruption and feudalism less harmful by incentives to crrupts to put their loot within the country, invest it, create jobs and lawful protection against uncertainty every two years. This is exactly what US did with robber barons, Korea did with chaebols and perhaps many other examples. If we can not remove cancer, until a cure is at hand, make it less painful to bear.

I bet much despised mullahism will die within 10 years if there are 5 open and fair election during this period. Let all peole to participate fairly even those who consider the amalgamation of religion, politics and governance, a lose-lose situation. If they can convince enough people to win, let them win and if they win majority, let them have the government. If public do not like them, people against obsession with borderline issue will become marginal or disappear. They should have same rights to be heard as any other political group. Let the natural political evolution sort it out in a free, fair and open atmosphere.

By the way, can you tell me why Musharraf wants to remain president even if there are election before October 2002. Why not the assemblies decide as per constitution.

Sameer #504 ``I see the devolution plan as an exercise to decrease the power of any would-be civilian administration of the future.``

If by civilian administration you mean the district management down to local patwaris, then I think you will agree that there is definite room for improvement. A decrease in their power is not a bad thing as long as the corresponding increase in power goes to the average citizen as exercised through the rule of law, and not to the local landlords and other heavies. (I dont think at the local level the military could ever maintain a grip on power as you seem to think, incidentally.) Therein lies the challenge, and I think the challenge is best answered by focussing on improving the systems for checks and balances and for control and oversight at the local level. If you have further thoughts or alternatives, I would appreciate your describing them.

Above the local level, I think we need to get rid of the layers of government (divisional - as is now being done, and provincial) since I dont think they do any good and are basically parasitic in nature (they contribute nothing, eat up a lot in in terms of resources and in terms of raising the level of unnecessary divisions in Pakistani politics).

At the national level, the military appears to be trying to gain some institutionalized say. Given the poor quality of politicians we have had to date, I think this may well be the lesser of two evils. But I am not sure, and anyway there is not much we can do as individuals at that level anyway. (We can contribute to building up local institutions, though, and I think all Pakistanis who have the good fortune to be able to do so should pitch in).

``Is performance of Dr. Ishrat Hussain better than Dr. Yakoob? Is Abdul Sattar better than Sartaj Aziz? How good is the performance of Interior Minister, Moeen Uddin Haider comparing the law and order situation? What is the exchange rate of rupee? What is the growth rate of the economy. ``

I am not sure of the point you are making here. It seems like you are comparing the performance of the military government in economic matters relative to the previous governments. I basically agree that the in internal matters the military should stick to issues of law and order, and hopefully that is how the generals see it as well.

``Sir, everybody overthere at the top is to milk the system to their best advantage. Some make commissioins, some getting loans and then defaulting intentionally and some keep accumulating plots, as if their previous holdings are not sufficient to have an affluent retirement life? The difference is that one gets the plots by lawful means and grabs power by unlawful overthrow, the other makes money by unlawful means and grabs power by lawful elections. The urgency of providing apt leadership is lost somewhere in this maze.``

While Pakistan has been raped by thugs in shalwar kamiz as well as thugs in bemedalled uniforms, I am encouraged by the fact that the top thugs are either declared publicly to be so (e.g. NS, Zardari, the former naval chief) and are either behind bars or struggling to stay away. No one has accused the current government of following their example (although if it stays in power too long that might happen since unaccountable power seems to corrupt).

To summarize: We need to work with what we have, and the current military government has so far done a better job than any other government we have had. Hope is not lost by any means, and it would be irresponsible on part of Pakistanis like you and me (those not worrying about the next meal like 90% of our people) to simply throw up our hands.

re: Sameer

``I have every right to do so since we have been offering ``darud and salam`` to aal-e-Ibrahim many times a day and in real life do not see any superior qualities in them.``

aal-i-Ibrahim also include scores of yahudis. I always found that amusing considering how anti-semetic Pakistanis are :-). Five times a day Muslims all over the world pray to Allah to bless the Jews.

Studebaker,

Okay, now you say that you don`t blame the govt. In your earlier post you were blaming the govt for not providing education for the muslims.

You say you don`t blame anybody. Yet, you blame the society for marginalising the muslims.

I sense hatred for Hinduism in you. You post articles from dalistan.org. Which calls for an Islamic govt to established in India? Do you support such ideas?

So, what do you suggest India do? WHat steps should the Indians take to help the muslims?

Do you hate India? Do you hate India for you think it is doing to the Muslims?

Regarding the burkha and the nuns business. Nobody is forcing the women to become nuns. It is their own volition which makes them cover themselves from head to toe. If muslims women volutarily do that. Then there is NO oppression. But, IF they are shot at, beaten even if they show a glimpse of their body, are ordered to cover themselves from head to toe then it IS DEFINITELY oppression. Please understand the difference. Nobody should force anything on anybody.

SameerJB

In other words there is nothing wrong when you are obssessed with borderline issues whereas it is a sin when someone else is? I undersatnd the tone of contempt in your post and to some extent reason behind it too. But I dont think parentage has any effect on our national outlook whatsoever. Now you are being obssessed with Muslims saying darud to their beloved prophet. Doesn`t it go against the teachings of Secularism that you preach day and night and cant even spell it right? When Muslims say Darud it is out of respect of Prophet and not to some mussali turned Syed. If you bother to look back at one of your other board your skepticism of the number of syeds in the world was reasonably and scietifically answered. My contention is that you should practice first, then preach, and aalso show it by an example. Yet better, be honest and addmit that you wrote this article with the sole pupose of religion bashing in the guise of Mullah bashing.

Urstruly: The article is based on my opinion that happens to be different than yours. I see onsession with borderline issues as counterproductive to the well being of our nation. I also see the obsession with ``noble`` lineage as a myth. Is it wrong to question the credibilty of such claims? I have every right to do so since we have been offering ``darud and salam`` to aal-e-Ibrahim many times a day and in real life do not see any superior qualities in them. Moreover, what is wrong with trying to know the determinable facts? Isn`t this the innate human desire from the begining?

Tahmed321 #499: Like yourself, recently I also had a firsthand experience of observing the situation at ground zero. All I can say is that you might have a different set of markers or indicators to establish a more positive overall picture than me. I see the devolution plan as an exercise to decrease the power of any would-be civilian administration of the future. It is a mean to an end. You may see it as a mean to empower people at grass-root level wheras I see it as a mean to increase the role of military in the administration and decision making. I also see it a reaction to the powers accumulated in NS whereby he was able to sack COAS, at least for few hours. They want it other way around as has been the case in the past, COAS being able to sack highest civilian authority, not for few hours but for many years at a time. A weakened Prime Minister is easier to manipulate or kicked-out, if necessary.

It is going to be the same people coming to power, same PPP, PML, ANP, BNP or MQM, as nazims and other office holders as indicted by the recent local bodies elections. It is same old ``Basic Democracy`` of Ayub Khan in a new name. I agree that they are dead serious about it. Why shouldn`t they be when it benefits them most.

Any faith in the present set up must be carefully judged by comparing it to the one they overthrew. Getting rid of ``bad`` is no guarentee for good in itself. Bad also provides an opportunity to opportunists to move in (disregarding the law of the land) under the pretext of getting rid of bad or cleaning up the system.

So how is the performance of current honest administration is faring at home and abroad, compared to the bad and corrupt one. Is performance of Dr. Ishrat Hussain better than Dr. Yakoob? Is Abdul Sattar better than Sartaj Aziz? How good is the performance of Interior Minister, Moeen Uddin Haider comparing the law and order situation? What is the exchange rate of rupee? What is the growth rate of the economy. Where is all the money they have saved from bumper cotton and wheat crops and the usual 10 percent of GNP eaten up by corruption? What is inflation rate? If they are a failure on all these accounts, how can one trust and except them to be successful in empowering people? Sir, everybody overthere at the top is to milk the system to their best advantage. Some make commissioins, some getting loans and then defaulting intentionally and some keep accumulating plots, as if their previous holdings are not sufficient to have an affluent retirement life? The difference is that one gets the plots by lawful means and grabs power by unlawful overthrow, the other makes money by unlawful means and grabs power by lawful elections. The urgency of providing apt leadership is lost somewhere in this maze.

Mr. SameerJB

In one of your posts below you are questioning the parentage of Pakistani Muslims. May I dare to ask once again the purpose and intent of your thesis titled ``Obsession with borderline issues`` with the emphasis on ``whose?``

Sameer JB: On the devolution plan, when I was in Pakistan earlier this month I met some people who were involved in it. It seems like the government is quite serious about it. It is certainly a potentially very powerful way to bring some rationality and accountability in government and put power where it belongs - with the people. While the US Senator is right in warning of the pitfalls, that does not mean we should not do whatever we can to support this exercise.

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krashid #492

``Partition was basically forced on Muslims by the similar attitude I am seeing on this board against Farzana Warsi and Studebaker.``

Rashid Mian, kindly try to justify this attitude also

http://www.dawn.com/2001/04/22/top14.htm

``Kashmiris hold violent protests BY Jawed Naqvi

NEW DELHI, April 21: Violent protests raged across Srinagar on Saturday against a pictorial depiction of Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) in the Time magazine, overshadowing a crucial Hurriyat meeting.. several protesters, mostly students, were arrested in different parts of the city following clashes with police ``

Anything happens anywhere in world, why is it that muslims in this subcontinent start reacting?

Time publishes something and it becomes a muslim-polic issue.

When Bhutto, a pakistani muslim was hung by Zia, a pakistani muslim, muslim mobs attacked temples in India. Mobs attacked christians too as poor Tara Masih was a christian.

Please correct yourself. Partition happened due to this attitude of muslims.

#Studebaker

--

-- ``Studebaker, what are your complaints against India? Is it

-- Hinduism? Is

--

-- it the Hindus? Can you let me know.``

--

--

-- No ,ITS NOT HINDUISM

--

--

-- Indian muslims lived with HINDUS for 1200 yrs

--

--

-- & hindus lived with muslim without anti islamic posture till 1857

--

--

-- So something must have been introduced from OUTSIDE

--

--

-- Indegenously India WAS never like you see it NOW

--

-- .WHY???

--

You are right that Hindus and muslims had no problems till

very late in the 19th century. But I dont think that

``something`` was introduced from outside. The beast was right

within us. The problems really started

when religious identities started to crystallize into

political identities. Earlier, it was never like that.

I dont want to get into the game of

who started it all or what led to what, but it has been one

escalation of hostilities upon another with

the salient points in the timeline being : Formation of

congress, Sir Syed`s ideas, increasing economic/political

rift between hindus and muslims, Iqbal`s Allahabad

address(which boils my blood even today), Jinnah`s Two-Nation

theory, Failure of congress to really appreciate the

insecurity of a section of muslims, Lahore resolution, pakistan

resolution,

direct action day, the carnage of partition riots, Independence,

riots of 60s/70s/80s/90s, babri masjid, kashmir militancy,

BJP`s ascent to power.

Deep down, i suspect, Hindus are plain scared of

Muslims, scared of their political choices, their

loyalties, their strong religious identity, their

proselytizing religion and even their

mohallas(ghettoes????)...

The fear gets magnified when muslims express a soft corner

for pakistan, when irresponsible elements burst crackers for

pakistan`s cricketing wins, when muslims speak in glowing

terms about murderers and marauders of the past....

This is what leads to the dominant attitude of apathy for

muslim grievances and suspicion of muslim intentions at best and dreams

of ``The Final solution`` by the minority extremists at worst.

This is why Hindus seek solace in the fact that APJ Abdul

Kalam reads and translates the gita, but would`nt care two hoots if

general

manekshaw had some strong reservations against the vedas.

The silver lining in this gloomy

scenario is that I believe members of both communities

genuinely want to bury the hatchet and move along. One other positive

aspect is that the communal divisions are largely limited to the middle class

and the urban areas. The villagers want just what they have wanted from time

immemorial : roti, kapra aur makaan.



-- And Yehudi(Israelis)[I purposely dont like to use Jews b/c that is

-- sacred to me].became friends of India & muslims enemy???

--

This is plainly wrong. India has mutually beneficial

relations with all muslim nations except you know who. And

after decades of friction due to our support for palestinian

cause, ties with Israelis are being gingerly normalized

primarily for defence purchases. There might be enemies in

international diplomacy but there are no ``friends`` only mutually

beneficial relationships.

--

--

-- Why a nun can be covered from head to toe and she`s respected for

--

--

-- devoting

--

-- herself to God, but when a Muslimah does that, she`s ``oppressed``?

--

--

-- Why a Jew can grow a beard and he`s just practicing his faith, and

-- when

--

-- a

--

-- Muslim does that, he`s an extremist?

--

--

-- When a western woman stays at home to look after the house and

-- kids

--

-- she`s

--

-- sacrificing herself and doing good for the household, but when a

-- Muslim

--

-- woman does so, she ``needs to be liberated``?

--

Valid points which need detailed discussion but i just want to

remind you that these are

worldwide attitudes/misconceptions and not limited to India.

--

-- Why is it that when a child dedicates himself to a subject, he has

--

-- potential, and when a child dedicates himself to Islam, he is

-- hopeless?

--

Because we fear he might be indoctrinated for you know what.

--

-- When a Christian of a Hindu kills someone, religion is not

-- mentioned,

--

-- (i.e. IRA or LTTE ) but when a Muslim is charged with a crime, it`s

--

-- Islam that goes to trial?

--

Because nobody justifies killing in the name of god as

vehemently as some Islamic extremists.

-- The myth that South Indian muslims are like South hindu is nOT

-- correct. Granted then that muslim of subcontinent do form loose

-- what so ever a better cohesive group than with any other group.

--

The attitudes of south indian muslims

are vastly different from their north indian counterparts. For

one, the political choices of TN/kerala muslims are less

likely to be based on religion.

--

-- Recognizing that fact ,part of the problem is Govt. Of India for

-- pursing a confrontational policy against Pakistan ,for deep down

-- ,India is just as much responsible for

-- Partition,Kashmir,Bangladesh,Babri,Hindutva as the Enemy

-- Pakistan.

--

Bad relations with pakistan might certainly aggravate the

problem but normalization will not solve it. The problem

predates pakistan. As i said, partition, kashmir, babri,

hindutva are simply an escalation of a fundamental conflict.

These events just made it worse.

--

-- There are about 100 muslim private coleges .The only Muslim

-- Colege (univ.)Aligarh &Jamamilia are govt run & secular enough

-- to be of not exclusive for muslims .But of the institutions started

-- voluntarily by muslim 100 of them even when NO MONEY IS

-- DEMANDED AS ACUSSED BY CRITICS,are not given

-- endorsement & recognition .Not b/c of quality but due to communal

-- politics

--

--

-- Stop accusing that muslums dont WANT education.YOU dont

-- PROVIDE education Govt.Of India paticularly to minority

-- Community.The fact 100 of Instituions has been initiated without

-- any incentive but our own will & desire to survive & COMPETE

-- with hindus is ample proof to DEBUNK your myth & preconceived

-- notion,biase & assumptions.

--

--

Majority of Hindus received help from NOBODY. We had to pay

and toil for the education we received. No free lunch. GOI has

failed to provide decent education for ALL the disadvantaged

sections of the population not just the muslims. The question

for you though is why should the GOI start and finance ``Muslim

colleges`` rather than just ``Colleges``?

Why do some muslims feel more comfortable sending their wards

to ``Muslim colleges``?

Studebaker #: 491

So you were being a COMMEDIAN by posting of patently false reports from ``dalitstan.org``!!

Good, I like your comedy. Keep it up.

Devolution Plan all Greek says American Senator

KARACHI, April 21(Online) Calling the much trumpeted ``Devolution of Power Plan`` as bag of borrowings, American Senator Fred C Welling said keeping in view socio-cultural fabric of Pakistan implementation of much trumpeted `Devolution of Power Plan`` seems to be impracticable and ambiguous. American senator Fred C Welling said this while addressing the members of Karachi Chamber of Commerce and Industry. He said bureaucracy always tries to show rosy gardens and they have also done in this regard too. `` This plan is all Greek for the man in the street and the men who matter then how to implement it in letter and spirit`` he remarked. Counting ample obstacle in the way of its implementation he said, ambiguousness, psyche of the masses, socio-ethnic tendencies are major one. He said its proper implementation calls for utmost will to implement it.

Studebaker #482

So, you think the govt is actively keeping muslims out of public education. How is it doing that. Do muslims have to go to muslim universities for education? Does the govt have to start muslims univs to ensure that muslims get educated? What is stopping you from attending a central school for instance? It is open to all irrespective of their beliefs.

Tell me do you consider the Hindus to be responsible for all the problems that muslims have? Do you really think all Hindus are ganging up together against the muslims?

Farzana, you haven`t provided us with an introspection you have promised us for sometime. Or do you intend to just keep blaming the evil Hindus for the problems in the muslim communities.

Krashid # 942: Yeah, they want to disarm people and resort to imposing curfew to do that. That sounds good if applied to all and everywhere and some good positive actions accompanying such drastic steps. They actually want to disarm MQM and not the mullahs/ jehadis (of their own creation) and how would they disarm rurual areas and NWFP and Afghans. They want you to send dollars but do not promise the safety of foreign currency accounts, they want you to ship useful items to Pakistan but do not make efforts for proper and corruptioin-free delivery. They want to improve revenues without decreasing spending. They have been successfully fooling most of the people for 53 years but they can not fool all the people all the time. They are not happy with BB, they are not happy with NS, they do not like MQM. What do they have in mind exactly and how they can make their cronies through an alliance of king`s party and religious parties win the elction if there is ever one. Imran Khan, Asghar Khan or Farooq Leghari might have good intentions but are unwinnable in most places besides each government has to live under the same boots and work with the same bureaucracy?

I wish all the best for Pakistan but seriously doubtful about something concrete really happening anytime soon. The amalgamation of the whole corrupt system with Islam has created the perfect recipe for move to one direction only, the downhill one. I really fear for losing all what we had gained through hardships and hardwork during British raj to be lost and becoming like Afghanistan once again. It is not going to happen shortly but if we do not stop the retrogressive tendencies, it is only a matter of time.

It may sound funny to you but for any enemy to destroy us, does not have to attack or sacrifice a single life. Just burn pages of Quran with excellent media coverage, at least once or twice a month-and Pakistan will self destruct by wheel-jam strikes, once or twice a month. Israel can add catalyst by doing something similar or doing bad things to Palestinians.

dost-mittar #480: I am glad you liked that article by Iftikhar Alam. He said almost everything I would have said, had I been the author of that article, written for the consumption of mostly Pakistanis. He is not a well-known journalist like Prof Aziz Uddin Ahmad, Khaled Ahmad, Ayaz Amir, Kamran Shafi or a Washington based free lance writer Dr. Manzur Ejaz. These are the few people who would, once in a while, write about Punjab or Punjabiyat. It is not popular in Pakistan to write favorably about the largest and dominating culture and province in Pakistan. It is more than just bragging about the big brother in Pakistan or the fear of offending readers from smaller provinces. The actual reason has more to do with identity as perceived by the State.

Much like the USA of past and conservative elements of present, Pakistan identity as perceived by the State is a melting pot and not the salad bowl where each component is visible, brings in distinct taste and flavor and the construction/ deconstruction of salad bowl is much easy. One can pick and choose to create his. her own salad bowl. In the case of melting pot, particularly in Pakistan, distinct identities are only recognized as an integral and invisible component of the soup or melt. They have been tirelessly adding flavor enhancer of a certain kind that lets you only smell Islamic flavor and suppresses other, almost like adding saccharin to sugar. Our cultures have already been sweet and mature enough and do not demand saccharin addition unnecessarily, every time you like to enjoy just being yourself.

Iftikhar Alam in that The News article laid out the case of Punjabi chauvinism in Islamic garb, being persistent since independence. Being the most numerous, they hurt themselves most by such stupid rhetoric and fervid anti-India, anti-West and other anti-(A-Z) issues that contribute actually quite negatively to the overall health of the nation. Most Pakistani/ Indian Punjabis to this day do not realize the benefit of having good relationship between neighbors with same culture. Fortunately, Diaspora Punjabis have realized the benefit of cooperation ( gas stations in NJ just a minor examples). There will always be enough people in India and Pakistan who would like to make the hatred permanent with no reevaluation of the past policies, no revision of history allowed, no exchange of ideas and no trade, have small and big wars with regular intervals and keep renewing your arsenal after every clash, victory/ defeat does not matter. It is better to ignore responding to such replies whose sole purpose is to bring down the other, any which way possible.

History, circumcision, lingam, caste system, sati, monkeys, camels, are usual topics in this regard. It adds nothing to any useful interaction.

Farzana #483:

``Neptune (#443): Look, technically TN is considered vegetarian. I am aware of Chettinad cuisine, of course. Do I trace some regional pride here??``

Technically? Who says so? Is it just a cover for ignorance of South India? Neptune is correct - most Tamilians (as most Indians) are non-vegetarians... it is only some forward castes brahmins, mudaliars etc who are vegetarian...

Sameer JB #467

I never meant to take your post against partition.

Partition was basically forced on Muslims by the similar attitude I am seeing on this board against Farzana Warsi and Studebaker.

My post was regarding taking a drastic action against religious parties because they are religious parties. I thought your post indicated that. (Or I was mistaken)

I feel that issues needs be addressed whether they are religious or not.

For example, I am not in favor of disarming the people. For the very simple reason that our state is very corrupt and ruthless. But if I decide that disarming is in the interest of peace in Pakistan (which I highly doubt), then I will disarm every person whether he is religious or atheist or Hindu or Qadiani and not selectively.

So religious parties are as much a part of Pakistan as issue based parties or other parties.

It is true that I would not recommend a special favor for religious parties, but nor will I favor a discriminatory treatment against them. For the simple reason. If our intelligentia cannot fight even the religious bigotry in our country, how can we expect that it will be successful in taking the nation meaning the majority of population of Pakistan out of crises. It will only lead to another bigotry, this time by irreligious people.

FYI, I have been and still believe in leftist politics. But I will fight for the right of religious parties to exist as any other party within an equal framework.

Regards.

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Friend #468

``So you also caught the virus``

No it is called brotherhood. he...he...he.

krashid #488

``he...he...he..``

So you also caught the virus.

Studebaker #476

You don`t know what Indian Muslims are supposed to say?

I know even in one year on this forum what you are supposed to say.

Islam is bad, Muhammed PBUH is worst human, Pakistanis are Jihadis and need to be killed, Kashmiris have no rights. Hinduism is good. Demolition of Babri Mosque is Indian ideal, beef eating is bad, drinking is good. These are just a few glimpses.

And if you don`t say it, you are not a citizen of world`s largest democracy:-), and are not secular:-) and in no way a democrat:-) he...he...he..

Friend #478

See the question of MaheshG to Studebaker for elucidation.

MaheshG #479

Are you joking.

Or if you are asking in seriousness.

Don`t you see burning of Koran, Killing of Kashmiris, Bombay riots, massacre of Muslims, demolition of Babri mosques.

Is Saadgi Pe Kaun Naa Mur Jaye Aye Khuda.

Karte Hain Qatl Aur Haath Mein Talwar Bhi Nahin.

:-), :-)

Harimau #481

Yes all the authentic information comes from Ahl-e-Kitab.

Whether they are Muslims or Christians.

The information coming from democrats:-) and secularist:-) is highly unreliable.

Guess why?

Some words defined after reading the pearls of wisdom uttered here:)

Keen intellect: “get your mind out of the gutter”

Rationality: “If you cut off any more of your dick, you will have to squat to pee”

Eclectic: “Personally, I thought it was camel-dung”

Empathy: “Krashid, Ali1, Urstruly: Farzana says you have a mind full of pigeon-crap”

Enlightenment: “They follow a barbaric religion and claim they are civilized. No f***ing way!”

Lilliputs: All of us who do not swallow the above-mentioned crap.

So stay right here, Gulliver…wouldn’t dream of sending you out of Chowk covered in shame. Let the Lilliputs climb all over you. Give us a few more laughs.

Sameer (#446):

[“Indian and Pakistani leaders need to drink soma and then discuss bilateral issues.”]

I would say it is a waste of alcohol. The nasha is always temporary and god knows what happens after the hangover. Our leaders are too drunk on power, and that is the only high they get. I am afraid the rhetoric you talk about is not relegated to Chowk, it is there in even normal situations. Let me give you the example of a conversation between my khaala and mother. My aunt had migrated to Pakistan (now moved further to the land of the truly pure – Amreeka!) and on one such visit she showed us pictures taken at Murree. I could see a distinct swagger as she said, “It is just like Kashmir.” My mother promptly replied, “Then why do you people want Kashmir?”

There is just too much simmering beneath the surface. One day I shall explore it.

Neptune (#443):

[“You must be cuckoo! Tamil non-veg cooking is one of the best in India.”]

Look, technically TN is considered vegetarian. I am aware of Chettinad cuisine, of course. Do I trace some regional pride here?? As for being cuckoo, well…do Tamilians eat those as well?

Friend (#466):

[“no one here is defending the custom of child marriage, devadasi etc. WHY do you feel compelled to defend prophet marrying a 6 year old and comsumating the marriage? He was prophet, and was supposed to show the path to others. If you have to justify his actions because “illicit devar-bhabhi, jija-Sali relationsahips” happen even today than what is the difference between him and us.”]

I am not defending the Prophet; if anything, my post (#440) would probably be considered blasphemous by rabid Muslims. However, there have been long-winded arguments about child marriage, devadasis etc being a necessity at one time. And if I did comment on these, it is with disgust that they still exist. Mind you, I said “in my country” and did not single out a religious community. As regards whether the Prophet ought to show the way to others, for me religion and the ‘great souls’ are palpably human. I also suspect that hedonism was more the order of the day at that time. What I do not like is the tone adopted to bring down not just the religion but also its practitioners.

[“(… Did the Prophet have to take care of everyone’s need personally? No, I think he delegated some, which is why Islam has so many Imams. Are they one too many for you to handle? As for taking care of his sexual needs first, I assume that the angel Gabriel did

some whispering in the Prophet’s ears, and since Islam has a deep respect for Christianity, the aural region assumes great significance. …)

I miss being is same school with you. It would have been fun!!”]

Well, if I were to set aside the sarcasm, I doubt it would have been much fun. I was the shy one…and, yes, it was a girl’s only institution where we said “Hail Mary” every morning. It remains the only prayer I remember fully.

Dost-mittar (#472):

[“As regards you, I doubt if you are an extremist. An extremist muslim who does not eat beef and has a vegetarian mother? Na, you must be part of the smallest minority in India. From your posts, it would appear that your pride has been hurt by recent experiences but you are not much more of a muslim than I am a hindu, though we both have our identities. BTW, when I talk about my identity, it does not end with Mohammad Bin Qassim`s entry to Sindh. I am equally proud of the Urdu poetry, Mughalai food, Taj and other architectural wonders that enriched India during the Muslim period. And truth be told, I am also proud of the British colonial heritage: the modern education system, parliamentary democracy, justice and administrative system, railways and cities such as Lutyen`s Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta, Madras and those wonderful hill stations.”]

I agree with the latter part of what I have quoted from your post. I cannot, however, say that I am proud about anything one is born with or as; I do believe that what one strives to achieve in whatever limited way is of far greater significance to our own lives, even if not to others. While I can preen about what you said earlier, I think that one cannot use one’s eating habits as an excuse. I was merely trying to fight against stereotypes when I talked about it. Hitler was a vegetarian, as we all know.

Btw, I have not disputed the fact that the kalima is recited and the khatna done during conversion to Islam. I am glad you at least try to see that I am not just a Muslim. Yes, my pride has been hurt by recent events, and as I said, it isn’t historical veracity that bothers me, but contemporary reality. I am an individualist, and there are aspects of my personality and reactions that may be deemed ‘extreme’ by some. Even if I am reacting ‘personally’ to some things, it is with the knowledge of the social structure and parameters that have created it.

In fact, I would like to quote Layman’s post (#459) in full to say that this is what I believe…

[“Okay folks, by now everyone knows that both Hindus and Muslims have practices in the past that would not stand up to today`s moral standards - be it Sati or child marriage or multiple wives or whatever - there is no point in justifying or rationalizing them.

Why don`t we just acknowledge the defects of the past and move on? What is more important is that we do not continue to follow these practices and justify them blindly in the name of religion.”]

Shima (#460 to Studebaker):

[“There is a heaven and hell difference between you and Farzana. She is in India and I hope she is fighting for her rights there. She makes lot of sense lot of times while you

make none.”]

While I graciously accept your kind words, I would like to say a few things. Just as we cannot say all Pakistanis are alike, or all Hindus are alike, so also it cannot be assumed that all Indian Muslims are alike. I have not been following Studebaker’s posts (okay, take ‘following’ to be a pun!) regularly, but of the little I have seen, I do not think our experiences have been anywhere near similar. It is possible that his suffering/sensibilities have had a greater impact on him. What he says is most certainly not always right, but I think he has a right to say it. I also see no reason why he should only respond to the bleating of one individual here, when you yourself believe that the person is in effect worthless of attention.

You further tell Studebaker:[“You mentioned once that you are in NH. I wonder with your kind of writing skill what job you have landed in your adopted country! I did not mean to be hurtful, but I lost patience reading all your garbage, and try to make some meaning out of it. Take care, get rid of your anger, say one, two, three.......”]

I shall not say that you are being patronizing, but unfortunately some of us with smart copy and a mere felicity with words manage to get away with a lot more. I recall his mentioning the linguistic confusion he faced, and one must see it in that perspective. I would like to state that I would have defended this aspect of discomfort with the language irrespective of which religion the person belonged to. I am venturing to respond to his post to you… and I hope you will take what I have just said in the right spirit.

Studebaker (#476 response to shima):

[I agree ,i say somthing just playing devils advocate or argument sake.You tell me what a minority (muslim) from India is suppose to say in your view.Imagine the most vivid & close Indian muslim in india if you went to school in India & lucky enough to have had a

fortunate indian muslim to have gone to the high class school that you went to.This thread will go underground ,if you are interested plz post the view of indian muslim as if you were a writer of a film script if you can imagine .Let me se if i can live up to that

role. Thanx in advance.”]

I am putting in my bit here because you have wondered on another board why Shima considers me a namak-halal and you a namak-haraam. I do not wish to argue over these labels. But this is what an Indian Muslim can behave like: state your problems, question the people who cast aspersions on your nationality and patriotism, argue when you feel your religion is being debased, but with the knowledge that others have religious sentiments as well, and they will hit out at you. Yes, a lot of things hurt, but when you have set out to play devil’s advocate, then this is part of the package deal. From your current post, it seems clear that you have a genuine desire to learn. I am sure enlightened people here can help you. I would prefer if some Indian Hindus came forward with unbiased suggestions.

AND...

McDonalds outlets in India do not serve either beef or pork…and it is amazing that the mere mention of Hindu friends makes people wonder that I am bragging about them…just shows how medieval they are…

Regards,

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Ref krashid #: 477

[Friend #462

You asked:

``Did you find in Studebaker only reliable source of information on India?.``

That is a million dollar question.

Yes, I will take his words in a more reliable sense.

You can guess why?]

Yeah. Because Al-Kitab tells you to believe a Muslim`s testimony over a non-believer`s.

Studebaker, what are your complaints against India? Is it Hinduism? Is it the Hindus? Can you let me know.

krashid #477

``You can guess why?``

I am of ``moti budhhi``. Why don`t you reveal what is in your mind !!

Friend #462

You asked:

``Did you find in Studebaker only reliable source of information on India?.``

That is a million dollar question.

Yes, I will take his words in a more reliable sense.

You can guess why?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Studebaker, #various posts,

You and Harimau are the two sides of the same coin. You can`t be a true muslim since a true muslim can not insult a religion/race based on some senile person`s blabbering. Or you must have a deep sense of hatred, go and pray to Allah to relieve you all of your hate. You will feel blissful. Why beat the entire nation when you have Harimau himself to take the beating? And did not the soil, water, sun of India support you some parts of your life? For that, can your motherland not expect some respect? Did you not learn the term ``namakhalal``? There is a heaven and hell difference between you and Farzana. She is in India and I hope she is fighting for her rights there. She makes lot of sense lot of times while you make none.

You probably do not see that there is no difference between you and Harimau. Because of you fools all the decent people had left chowk, where are Bilal, Sadhna,Temporal, cheraym, Shammi, Shankar etc. gone? I guess they have realised the futility of corresponding here and reading the garbages you guys send in days in and days out.

You mentioned once that you are in NH. I wonder with your kind of writing skill what job you have landed in your adopted country! I did not mean to be hurtful, but I lost patience reading all your garbage, and try to make some meaning out of it. Take care, get rid of your anger, say one, two, three.......

From today`s ``The News``:

Of Punjabi and Punjabiyat

Imtiaz Alam

The World Punjabi Conference, held in Lahore, has not only raised quite intriguing questions about the language and identity, but has also generated a lot of controversy in the Urdu language press, except Jang, that had predominantly misreported a sensitive event and then launched a vicious campaign against it. The people to people interactions across the border are generally misconceived and resented by those who are either overwhelmed by a deep rooted paranoia or in their chauvinism debunk any effort at building bridges. The same elements could not tolerate even a small moot where Punjabi writers and intellectuals resolved to live in amity in the heart of a divided Punjab - the bastion of animosity.

The fact of the matter is that the realization about the futility of animosity among a section of Punjabi intelligentsia that has been the harbinger of mutually reinforcing exclusiveness has come as a rude shock to the prophets of hate on both sides. The onslaught against the Punjabi Conference is understandable since it has, to a degree, eroded the ideological bastion of the aggressive Punjabi chauvinists who have had monopolized a kind of divine right to issue edicts on the patriotic credentials of others in the smaller provinces. Now, to our good luck and that of the subcontinent, the Punjabis are themselves showing some willingness to explore the possibilities of living in a peaceful neighborhood while addressing the issues of identity.

Overcoming a bitter history of bloodbath and religious cleansing, especially in a mutually hostile Punjab where the largest bloody two-way migration took place, is by no means a small endeavor. The Punjabis, who dominate Pakistan and are quite influential in New Delhi, along with other power groups have been defining a hostile relationship between the two states. And the two establishments have been both influenced and constrained by the Punjabi sentiment in pursuing a mutually exclusive course of hostility. Against this backdrop, the World Punjabi Conference is a step that violates the set patterns of bellicosity in the region.

The ice among the Punjabis had actually started to melt after decades of estrangement. With the separation of East Pakistan, the Punjabis in Pakistan had to come to terms with other federating units. The Punjabi-Mohajir axis that also defined the ideological nexus, finally, broke down in the 1990s and opened the possibilities of readjustments and realignments. However, the Punjabi affluent classes took time in re-calibrating their interests and, finally, Mian Nawaz Sharif took the road of settlement of disputes and reconciliation with India with an eye on mutually beneficial trade. This was the time when a different wave of reconciliation was blowing in Northern India - the Hindutva bastion - and Prime Minister Vajpayee had decided to capitalize on it.

The Punjabis in India had got tired of their jingoism and wanted to give peace a chance. The big business in India, especially the Punjabi businessmen, was too eager to revive trade links with their counterparts in this part of the Punjab and beyond, especially Central Asia. As a minority, the Sikhs, who formed a predominant part of the Punjabis in India, felt betrayed and culturally threatened with the dominance of Hindi and rising Hindu chauvinism. The Operation Blue Star, targeting the holiest Sikh shrine, Golden Temple, sent a deep shock of resentment among the Sikhs who were already feeling alienated and a section of them had resorted to separatism and terrorism.

With the defeat of terrorism, the Sikhs have become much more active on cultural and linguistic fronts that they had always kept alive to survive as a distinct ethno-lingual-religious entity. The Punjabi language press and literature continued to flourish. The Sikhs, who had migrated to England and North America in large numbers, were, in particular, keen in preserving their heritage and continued to promote their language and religion as an identity. The World Punjabi Conference is, primarily, the product of a threatened ethno-lingual-religious minority that has most of its sacred places in this part of the Punjab, including the birthplace of Baba Guru Nanank, and Panja Sahib. On the other hand, with the break-up of Punjabi-Mohajir axis and increasing self-awareness of the ethno-lingual communities in Pakistan, counter-posed to the dominant ethnic group, the Punjabis also started to partially look inward, despite zealously maintaining their hegemonic position. Unlike the Sikhs or the Punjabis, who are a minority in India, the majority-Punjabi group in Pakistan abandoned their native language, in favor of Urdu, as a tool to subordinate other linguistic entities and grab greater opportunities. That is why, unlike East Punjab, the Punjabi language had to suffer from the self-convenient neglect of the Punjabis and no Punjabi press worth the name could develop. Similarly, unlike Sindhis, the Punjabi could not be adopted as the mother tongue of learning or official discourse. Yet, the Punjabi writers and intellectuals continued to keep the flame alive, despite isolation. Interestingly, some of the best prose and poetry was written and most famous folk songs and tunes were composed here that are too popular in East Punjab.

What has been ignored by the two hostile establishments was that how deeply the Punjabis, especially those who had migrated during the partition in millions, longed for visiting their ancestral homes and places of birth. The Sikhs have been the greater sufferers since their holiest shrines are located here. Moreover, like Bengalis, the Punjabis had to pay heavily for the pattern of division that Quaid-i-Azam had not thought of. Unlike Germans, the Punjabis chose to divide Punjab on religious lines and have been fated to live in separate state-hoods. Two different scripts and religious differences further reinforced the divisiveness of a divided Punjabi entity.

Yet, the commonality of cultural, lingual and historical roots, coupled with the strong sufi tradition, make the Punjabis explore mutually reinforcing grounds to interact while living in two sovereign nation-states. Both can learn a lot from each other and help promote a buffer that can help reduce tension and resolve cross-border conflict over Kashmir. If Pakistan is destined to survive, as democratic-cooperative federations by granting due rights to the federating units, without the dominance of one big brother, then the powers that be don’t need false ideological facades to undermine regional identities. And if settlement of the Kashmir dispute and peace is in the ultimate interests of both India and Pakistan, then interactions among the Punjabis need not be resented.

A friendly atmosphere across the Wahgah border and friendly relations between the Punjabis can actually serve as a powerful peace constituency. The Punjabis now increasingly realize that they will suffer most if yet another war - that may go nuclear - broke out. Of course, the jingoists and the lobbies who thrive on a perpetual state of conflict will be the losers, not the people across the historical divide that must remain irreversible. The aggressive chauvinists who have attacked the Punjabi Conference cannot give a single reason against an effort that neutralizes anti-Pakistan sentiment in East Punjab. This is also true about the detractors of Punjabi interaction in India.

The Conference, among other resolutions, demanded free-visas for the writers and artists. A journalist friend, Satnam Singh Manik, even demanded relaxation of visas for this side of the Punjabis to visit any place in East Punjab and it was carried by the Conference. Those who make a lot of noise about the Indian cultural invasion forget that Punjabi folklore, sufi poetry and rich literature produced here can sweep all the three Punjabi states of India, beside Delhi. Similarly, if mass visas are granted to the Punjabis on the occasion of Basant, hundreds of thousands will throng Lahore from other side of the border since Lahore, the heart of Pakistan, is also the heart of a divided Punjab. The gurdwaras and temples located on this side can also attract very large number of pilgrims on sacred days of commemoration, besides creating a tolerant and humane image of Pakistan.

The Punjabi Conference did focus on the language and issues of identity. The solution to the two-scripts was, however, resolved by proposing to learn both at the higher stage. Most of the speakers rejected the notions of chauvinism while increasingly referring to the teachings of mystic poets and Guru Nanak. Yet there was an element of assimilative chauvinism towards the Seraiki issue and retaliatory attitude towards other ethno-lingual groups among some of the speakers from our Punjab. They should have focused on the injustices done by their own Punjabis to others, rather than abusing those who resent their oppression. Although most of the speakers did emphasize the inviolability of the two nation-states, yet a section of press misinterpreted the poetic expression of love beyond borders. The World Punjabi Conference has set a positive process into motion. It needs to be followed up by allowing greater room for interaction at the people to people level.

The author is a staff writer

Reply #: 456

[Is it true that recently secular:-) and democratic:-) Government of world`s biggest democracy:-) has released a memorandum for not hiring Muslims in armed forces?:-)]

Actually, you can add to that baseless statement you made up: the Taj Mahal is going to be taken apart block by block to make idols of Ram which will be installed in Ayodhya.

[Do I need to convert back to Islam to enforce secularism?:-)]

If you cut off any more of your dick, you will have to squat to pee.

Krashid # 458

That is a view of religion I can very much respect.

In general, I like religious folks, be they Hindus, Muslims, Christians, or any other. But when people start telling me that I have to believe them because they have something I can`t understand, or that I must believe in something even if it is patently absurd in modern context, I prefer to give them a wide berth.

In that sense, I think, one can be `religious` and `irreligious` at the same time.

Re: Sameer, #449

``For all Muslim of Pakistan belonging to different tribal groups and claiming to be of Arab (noble) origins, many some claiming to be descendants from a single individual.``

The fact that so many Muslims, not only in Pakistan but in India as well, claim to be descendents of the Prophet and other ``noble`` families of Arabia is probably unique to the Subcontinent Muslims. This is so, I believe, because of the Hindu cultural influence on the Muslims of the Subcontinent, ie, the curse of the caste system. Ironically, this business of ``Syeds, Qureshis, Siddiquis, Farooquis, Usmanis, Alavis, Zaidis, Naqvis, ``rehanansaris`` and so on`` runs contrary to the basic tenet of egalitarian Islam, that all human beings are equal before God. As the great poet Iqbal said ``ek he saf may kharay ho gaiye Mahmood o Ayaz.`` The Muslims of the Subcontinent are cursed, and this ``caste`` system is one of them.

Ref Studebaker #: 450

[There is pathetic representation of muslim in both state & central Govt.jobs.WHICH I AM SURE THEY WIL READILY TRADE OFF THERE PERSONAL LAW PRIVILGESES IF IT CAME TO THAT.WITH15% population dont have more than 5% of govt jobs .]

You know, the IAS exams don`t consist of questions on Al-Kitab. So if you pathetic religion-freaks would go to a regular school and learn something useful, you might get a good job. This is not the time of Akbar when you got a job just because your name was Inayat Khan or Vilayat Khan. Those days ended long back.

With your education in India, you have ended up in the West. So why do the Muslims cry they want government jobs? Is the government denying passports to Muslims? So, why can`t they all get an education and sell their skills to the highest bidder in the world market?

Why during the height of the IT boom (that is, till Dec 2000) were Indian Muslims not proportionately represented in the IT professionals working overseas? Either you have to concede that Muslims don`t want to study hard or they are genetically brain-dead. I don`t subscribe to the latter theory. On the other hand, you could claim that is the case and apply to the Indian government for a jobs quota for the mentally deficient.

Why is it that Indian Muslims refuse to apply themselves as hard as the Sikhs, Christians, Jains, Parsees and the hated Hindus?

http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2001/04/19/fp6s1-csm.shtml

US and China dance with India

As their own relationship is tested, two powers court the world`s largest democracy.

By Scott Baldauf (baldaufs@csps.com)

Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

At the height of the two-week standoff with China over a US reconnaissance plane, President Bush took time to give a visitor a tour of the White House Oval Office. The visitor was Jaswant Singh, foreign minister and defense minister of India, China`s longtime rival that three years ago joined the Nuclear Club.

Sure, it could have been a coincidence. Or it could have been a none-too-subtle signal to China that the US intends to extend its reach in Asia right up to the edge of China`s backyard.

``The US knows the Chinese are watching the US-India relationship warming over the last few years, and Bush used it at a critical moment,`` says Kanti Bajpai, a disarmament-studies professor at Jawaharlal Nehru University in Delhi. ``India knew they were being used, but they milked it for what it`s worth.``

Call it the politics of balance. As the Bush administration shifts China from its ``partner`` column to its ``competitor`` column, there appears to be a growing appreciation among top US officials for the democratic values and strategic goals India shares with the US. Simultaneously, China has been making moves of its own toward India, offering further talks on longtime border disputes.

It may not be time to predict a full strategic alliance with either the US or China, but the sudden attractiveness of India appears certain to slowly but radically shift the power balance in an area of influence shared by all three countries that stretches from the Persian Gulf to the Pacific Ocean.

In an interview in the Hindu, a prominent Indian newspaper, departing US Ambassador Richard Celeste indicated that the Bush administration seemed eager to work more closely with India not just on trade issues, but on strategic ones as well. He noted that a senior Bush administration official had told him that India had ``earned a place at the table`` of global players.

Enhanced military cooperation is just the first step - including the exchange of military and technical advisers, the transfer of high-tech weaponry, and joint military exercises - before a strategic alliance could be formed, security and diplomatic experts say.

Even so, there are some initial signs of a growing US-India relationship.

For one thing, while the Clinton administration waited years to fill the US ambassadorship in India, the Bush administration announced its planned appointment of Robert Blackwill within a month of taking office. Diplomats here say the selection of Mr. Blackwill, senior State Department strategist on Chinese and nuclear proliferation issues, indicates the White House considers South Asia to be a top-priority region.

Over the next few months, a veritable who`s who of Bush officials could be visiting India. President Bush and members of his cabinet have accepted Foreign Minister Singh`s invitations to visit India, but lower down, the flurry of visits could be even more intense

Behind the scenes, there will be even more talks - and a number of Congressional bills - on removing the biggest hurdle to closer US-India ties. With India resistant to signing the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, trade sanctions specifically targeting industries that provide nuclear technology and dual-use technologies were imposed by Congress after India tested nuclear devices in 1998.

In any case, the current US-India relationship is a far cry from the days when India was a left-leaning state that bought Soviet weaponry and preached against the evils of Western (read US) imperialism. What the US would gain from a cozier arrangement, Indian strategic experts say, is a bulwark against Chinese expansionism and Islamic fundamentalism in Central Asia, as well as an advocate for democratic governance in South Asia. What India gains is prestige, security, and a potentially growing role on the international stage.

``In isolation, the US cannot ensure stability in Asia without working with us,`` says Adm. K.K. Nayyar, former chief of Indian naval operations. ``The thing is, you require a counterweight in dealing with the Muslim world. We are the second-largest Muslim country ..., and we represent a relatively more modern, moderate Islamic world view.``

Although India and China accuse each other of fomenting and supporting revolution within its borders, (India in Chinese-ruled Tibet, and China in Indian-ruled Assam and Nagaland), China has begun to trade maps with India over their disputed border from Kashmir to Burma, a marked improvement over trading artillery rounds. Just in the past 50 years, India and China have fought one war and a handful of skirmishes over the area. Trade between India and China has risen from $200 million a year to $2.5 billion in the past 10 years.

``China and India realize they have interests in each other`s stability,`` says Kanti Bajpai, the disarmament-studies professor at JNU. ``We have got a series of confidence-building measures, we have trade relations. We would jeopardize all that if we moved too fast toward a strategic relationship with the US and joined the anti-China bandwagon.``

In addition to continuing disagreements over India`s development and testing of nuclear weapons, other obstructions to a closer US-India strategic alliance include India`s much-stated desire for a permanent seat on the UN Security Council. In addition, the US will have to break the traditional mindset of viewing India primarily in light of its other hostile neighbor, Pakistan, which was a close US ally during the cold-war years. Now, the US will have to begin thinking of India on its own terms.

``We have been through this dance before several times now, but it`s never quite happened,`` says Steve Cohen, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution in Washington. ``As the US, we don`t have enough experience to treat India as a strategic partner. And from the Indian standpoint, they don`t want to be in a position where we [the US] fight China to the last Indian.``

One US official agrees that closer ties with the South Asian giant are inevitable, after sanctions are removed. But, he adds: ``A strategic partnership is something that takes time to develop. You don`t just add water and, boom, you`ve got one.``

It may be years away from reaching maturity, but there is an unmistakable giddiness in the air over the prospect. ``It`s like boy meets girl. We have tried to hold hands, but the kissing hasn`t started,`` says S. K. Singh, former foreign secretary under Indira Gandhi, 1969-74. ``Earlier, we were glaring at each other.``

Krashid: I hope you did not mind reading my yesterday`s posts loaded with more than my average typos and poor grammer. I need to write them on word processor and at least read them once before hitting the send button.

In case of Mohammad, his descendants are through Fatima and most Muslims do not object to it.

When I say that Islam did not help in public areas of importance for Pakistan does not mean a support for Indian Unity and must not be read as a case against partition. Those are accepted realities.

The cases of poverty in Bihar or Assam also support my point that religion or sharp division based on religions of a certain group is not going to help any ethnic or national group unless they realize the value in education, progress, harmony and logic

Studebaker #452

“HARImou

Child marriage in India is still prevalent.GANDHI married Kasturba when she hadn`t attained Menarche. ……. GO READ WHAT HAS BEEN YOUR HINDUS RECORD ON WOMAN.DEPLORABLE GENTAL FIXATED OBSESSIVE RELIGION OF DEVDASNI LINGH & KALI --SPL. GODDESS OF PROSTITUTES.!!”

And Farzana #: 440

“ … asked by someone who lives in a country where child marriage, ashram sexcapades, devadasi sacrifices are common?”

Studebaker & Farzana - no one here is defending the custom of child marriage, devadasi etc. WHY do you feel compelled to defend prophet marrying a 6 year old and comsumating the marriage? He was prophet, and was supposed to show the path to others. If you have to justify his actions because “illicit devar-bhabhi, jija-sali relationsahips” happen even today than what is the difference between him and us.

And Studebaker, your post “VEDIC FEMALE INFANTICIDE “ is a direct copy from http://www.dalitstan.org/books/gowh/gowh1.html . Already many readers of this board pointed out the glaring factual mistakes in other articles on that site. If you go and read Arthava Veda, you will find that these sections either do not exist or translation is incorrect. This is not to say that other offensive passages do not exist in those scriptures. But rather than defending them, I will only say that you should try to look at what is good in those scriptures.

For your benefit, I will quote something from Rig Veda

“In one of the most remarkable of the Vedic hymns - In the Hymn of Creation, (Rig Veda 10.129.3 ) a searching inquiry as to the origin of the world is made; it is certainly the earliest known record of philosophic doubt.

`` There was not non-existent nor existent;

There was no realm of air, no sky beyond it.

What covered it, and where? and what gave shelter?

Was water there, unfathomed depth

of water?

Yet the Vedas go further, being philosophy, or really spiritual sciences, rather than myth. The hymn goes to say that in the beginning there was neither death nor immortality, nor day nor night. All that existed was void and formless. Then arose, desire, the primal seed and germ of spirit. But,

Who verily knows and

who can declare it,

Whence it was born and

Whence comes this creation?

The gods are later than this

world`s production

Who knows, then, whence it

first came into being?

Studebaker #450

“WITH15% population dont have more than 5% of govt jobs “

Now 50 years after partition, you should stop playing the game of percentages. Parsis control large portion of business and have a good share of Government jobs. Punjabis have a very good representation in Army and Police of many states and central government. Bihari’s and tamilians have large numbers of civil service posts. Do you wish all those jobs to be divided according to regional and religious percentages by some mathematical formula? It would be better for you to improve your education and than compete on the basis of skills. In addition, perhaps we should do away with the large numbers of Government jobs so that this question of percentage becomes immaterial.

Farzana Versey #440

Ref “Random Thoughts:

… Did the Prophet have to take care of everyone’s need personally? No, I think he delegated some, which is why Islam has so many Imams. Are they one too many for you to handle? As for taking care of his sexual needs first, I assume that the angel Gabriel did some whispering in the Prophet’s ears, and since Islam has a deep respect for Christianity, the aural region assumes great significance. …”

I miss being is same school with you. It would have been fun!!

Re: Harimau #445

[Not at all so. Hindus are not prohibited by their religion from having multiple wives. But a polygamist Hindu cannot get a government job. In fact, even to marry a second time, the man has to have a good reason such as not having a son AND must get consent in writing from the first wife. And he still cannot get a government job......]

Well, not exactly. As per the Hindu marriages act 1955, a hindu cannot have more than one living spouse - period. Irrespective of good reasons and written consents, the second marriage is void in law, and the party liable for prosecution under criminal charges of bigamy.

Thus, the denial of government jobs is not really THE deterrent here.

Of course, you are right that polygamy is not prohibited by hindu religion. In fact, it is mostly silent about it.

Re: Studebaker #452

Is www.dalitstan.org your usual source of information on India and Hinduism? You really believe that by quoting such authoritative sources you will prove your argument?

If there is a point somewhere in what you say, I`m afraid it is entirely lost in the middle of dubious quotes, hyperbole and bad logic.

Sameer-ji:

I know this is off the topic, and somewhat personal, but I have a Hindu friend who`s name is also Sameer. Is it that rare thing, a name used by both Muslims and Hindus? Just curious :-)

regards

Harpreet

krashid #456

``Studebaker #450

Is it true that recently secular:-) and democratic:-) Government of world`s biggest democracy:-) has released a memorandum for not hiring Muslims in armed forces?:-)``

So you found only reliable source of information on India in Studebaker!!

regards

In ref to Harimou various posts.

dear Hari, Ive read your various posts with interest and I have great admiration for your keen intellect, and appreciate the time and effort you put into these interacts.Unfortunately there are not many interactors on your opposing side who cam claim such facility.You truly stand tall in this land of liiliputs.Your hard hitting style rankles even the so called moderates, so to them I say if you can`t take the heat in this anonymous forum then you should get out of the proverbial kitchen.Iamgine if this was truly the UN general assembly debate,heads would be butting and wars would break out because great part of humanity still dwells in a barbaric mindset.I don`t know what will eventually uplift them but any effort to educate people is often met with hostility especially if you lay it on just as it is.

As for Islam I can tell you from first hand experience that it is probably the most cultlike system of brain washing and mind control ever devised by man.The only way I found to deal with it was to deconstruct and detatch it from its so called divine moorings, only then I was able to see the genius behind its design; how a lone man in the desert dispossessed and alienated devised this plan.He lived at a crossroads where a surprisingly diverse group of people interacted.He belonged to the clans which derived their sustenace from catering to the religious needs of differing groups of people.He had access to people who practiced semitic as well as animistic religions. It seems he set out to capture more for himself one small bit at a time and before his death had himself devised the undisputed king of the Arabian hinterland.

World has seen many a genius,hence we are where we are today, and he was but only one of many.I put him in league with Jesus of nazareth,Gautm Buddh,Alexander of macedonia,Chengiz Khan,Aristotle,Socrates and many other men who have shaped the history of mankind as we know it today.

The merit and demerit of any of these people is open to debate and rightfully it should be because they touch so many lives but as long as people are going to be bogged down in the `belief` of any one of their being `divine` and hence beyond our pale of understanding we will be up against a wall of irrationality which is impossible to penetrate.

This particular board is about to be thrown into the oblivion.If you have any comments you can post to the soulmates board.

Best regards.

Okay folks, by now everyone knows that both Hindus and Muslims have practices in the past that would not stand up to today`s moral standards - be it Sati or child marriage or multiple wives or whatever - there is no point in justifying or rationalising them.

Why don`t we just acknowledge the defects of the past and move on? What is more important is that we do not continue to follow these practices and justify them blindly in the name of religion.

Eklavya #441

I don`t see religion as my property.

(Neither I am religious in the strict sense)

Why should I replace objectivity when I can see it clearly.

Religion belongs to anyone who accepts it.

One example of El-Khani (I think) will suffice. They are the descendents of Halaku Khan who wiped out Muslim Empire in Baghdad. Later in Iran they converted to Islam.

Also Quran says that WE (God) will replace you (Muslims) with better people (if you are not better) (or something of sort.

So if Babar was gay, should I start justifying that Gay relationship is Islamic. Or if Taliban destructed Bamiyan Buddha should I start justifying it as Islamic. (How can then I justify non Destruction of Bamiyan Buddhas for many centuries).

That is the reason I like the post of Feroz K very much.

Very objective.

Not something subjective in the garb of objectivism.

Regards.

Studebaker #452

Instead of comparing, which leads to no solution but only depicting that who is worse.

To give you many examples which will show that seeing a phenomenon outside its socio-economic circumstances is useless exercise.

It is not a matter of defense of Prophet PBUH. All his marriages were in lagal framework according to the culture of the time. From Khadija who was 15 years older than him to Aiesha who was very young. There would hardly be any person who would compare with him in morality, humanity, humanism, achievements, influence etc even by unbiased observer. And for me he is best alongwith Jesus Christ.

I was discussing with my friend regarding the difference in age betwen husband and wife.I thought 3-4 years is reasonable and he was telling that more the difference in age the better. And we were not talking in religious terms.

In Tribal areas of Pakistan, the women are married at very young age to older persons due to the tribal culture.

I would, instead of comparing, stress upon the legal aspect. Meaning difference in age is OK as long as sex is in legal framework and there is no hard and fast rule of age difference.

In New York 10 and 12 years old su-ck (You know what) of old people for 10 and 20 dollars. Trade of women has increased dramatically in Eastern Europe once European and American troops have taken control of that region.

In Japan there is almost constant protest against molestation of young Japanese girls at the hands of SECOND LARGEST DEMOCRATS of the world.

These are the things of shame for Muslims.

Regards.

Studebaker #450

Is it true that recently secular:-) and democratic:-) Government of world`s biggest democracy:-) has released a memorandum for not hiring Muslims in armed forces?:-)

Do I need to convert back to Islam to enforce secularism?:-)

Sameer JB #449

But Prophet PBUH had no male child who lived infancy and therefore, if progeny continues from male side there is no descendent of prophet PBUH as such.

Sameer JB #444

In regards to forcing from top a certain version, I probably will be a follower of Jinnah and Gandhi.

The change happens within a society. Mullahs and their influence are part of our society as are liberals and large majority of moderates.

The elevation of Muslims will also happen from within the society. Intellectuals have a large role to play in this regards.

We have come a long way.

When I see Pakistan standing up to India, I consider this. Can Behar, or Assam or other underdeveloped areas can do so if they ever desire. Because the parts comprising current Pakistan was pretty backward at the time of independence.

The good news for me was Punjabi conference. It will be good if Punjabis not only assert their culture, but will also defend other cultures in different parts of Pakistan. And not only assert their rights, but also defend and be part of defending rights of people of other parts of Pakistan.

In another scenario, reversion to old boundaries will also be a good idea.

The primacy should be for the progress of a people whereever they remain. Instead of fighting the war of capitalist industrialist alliance in the name of Islam or Hinduvta or American Interest.

Another happy news is rapport of India with Iran and stress of India on economic prosperity.

One has to wait and see, the Indian hegemonic tendencies to water down to see the prosperity reaching to majority of population of our region.

Harimau #434

Quran was accumulated during Prophet`s own time. Special care was taken to preserve it. There were scribes. People not only used to memorize it but there is continuous recitation of Quran five times a day by each Muslim. Companions of prophets had written version of it with them.

You can appreciate the fact that accumulation of Quran in a written form was taken when 10,000 Huffaz (meaning people who know the whole Quran by heart) were martyred in a battle at the time of Uthman RZAH. There is no doubt on authenticity of it.

Hadith is a different matter. Prophet PBUH himself prohibited writing of his Hadith. It was collected probably 100 years or more after prophet`s death. And is based on narration of single individuals.

That is why there is much controversy in Hadith. Not in Quran. It is so well memorized by millions of people all over the world that written form is compared with memorized to correct the written form.

I think this clarifies.

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Harpreet # 436

I agree.

On the other hand, there is no dearth of examples in history when demented ideas have turned into firmly-believed, ruling idealogies of entire nations, causing untold deaths, destruction, and wars.

Isn`t that a sobering thought?

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For all Muslim of Pakistan belonging to different tribal groups and claiming to be of Arab (noble) origins, many some claiming to be descendants from a single individual.

Some Pathans claim themselves to be of semitic origin, some believe themselves to be from one of the ``lost`` tribe of Israel and some other Afghans claim to have originated from a close relative of Mohammad who ended up in Afghanistan.

In Punjab, more than a million Awans/ Maliks of salt range claim to be descendants of one Syed Qutb Shah of Arab origin who came to the Indus, about 1000 years ago. Arain think themselves of Al-Raia (farmers) from MB Qasim. They are several millions. More than one million Abbasis of northern Punjab claim to be related to Mohammad through one of his uncle. Gakkhars of Rawalpindi, known generally as Kiyani claim to be of royal Persian origin and also related to some noble Arab.

Then there are Syeds, Qureshis, Siddiquis, Farooquis, Usmanis, Alavis, Zaidis, Naqvis, ``rehanansaris`` and so on, each group theoretically originating from a single individual of 1000-1400 years ago.

Here are some known facts from around the world to consider and compare with Muslims claims.

Several hundred or thousands, Native Americans came to Americas mostly during the last ice age about 12-13 thousand years ago. There were about 110 million of them when Columbus arrived Hispaniola. From thosand(s) to 110 million in 13000 years. Hundreds or thosands of Parsees came to India more than 1000 years ago following the conquest of Iran by Muslims. How many Parsees there are in more than 1000 years and not descendants from one single individual. SS Bounty sank more than 200 years ago in the South pacific, leaving 6-10 survivals on Paitcairn Island. There are less than 200 inhabitants now living on Pitcairn Island, isolated most of the last 200+ years and proven blood relatives by scientific methods. All Icelandic people, all 230,000 of them are scientifically proven descendants of 50-100 Vikings who first settled there about 1000 years ago. 230,000 from 50-100 individuals in 1000 years with almost no warfare or major epidemic.

So how many descendants are possible from each person of Arab origin, ending up in sub-continent about 1000 years ago? Let us not forget many epidemics, inter tribal warfares and moving out of tribe for any reason. Also consider the world population rising very slowly until the last 200 years when scientific advances helped population of the world to shot up. Not even 50,000 people can be possible descendants from a single individual in 1000 years, Arab or non-Arab!

For diasporic Punjabi Brigade at Chowk and Rehananasari:

Punjabi conference urges talks to end Indo-Pak disputes

From our correspondent

LAHORE - A four-day International Punjabi Conference, attended by scholars from various countries, including the Indian Punjab, concluded here on Monday with a unanimous appeal to India and Pakistan to settle their disputes through dialogue.

A declaration issued and adopted at the concluding session of the conference, sponsored by the World Punjabiat Foundation, said the disputes should be resolved so that attention could be diverted to development and progress in both countries.

The conference called for providing maximum facilities, including grant of visa for longer periods to writers, artists and other intellectuals, to enable them to undertake visits for promoting a culture of peace.

It demanded that special attention be paid to removing obstacles which impeded the progress of women who constituted 50 per cent of the population in both the countries.

The conference called for creating a web site for the Punjab, Punjabi and Punjabiat and demanded that universities in both the countries teaching Punjabi as a subject should introduce one paper (of at least 100 marks) to be taught in both Persian and Gurmukhi scripts. It said that since all languages in Pakistan were national languages, the medium of instruction at the primary level should be the mother tongue.

The declaration said that the provinces and the centre should provide adequate financial assistance to institutions engaged in research work for the development of Punjabi language, literature and culture. It said that the World Punjabi Conference, attended by about 400 delegates provided an opportunity for discussion on issues pertaining to international brotherhood and human rights.

Speaking at the concluding session, conference chairman Fakhr Zaman criticised certain elements who, he said, were hurling accusations at the conference and clarified that nothing was said at the gathering which could be termed as against the ideology of Pakistan or against Pakistan and Islam.

He said that the participants firmly believed that Pakistan and India were physical realities. He said that people of all the four provinces, including Punjab, had the right to speak for their cultures and work for their promotion and development.

Pakistan as a federation could be strengthened only if all the provinces were culturally strong.

Farzana #440, ``No religion can ever qualify as a

panacea; it can at best be a reprieve. So, to either put it on a pedestal or crush it beneath one’s feet reveals a mindset full of pigeon crap and the smelling of the soles of the feet.``

AMEN.

farzana Versey #440:

[Sameer, how did you like moderating this board? I know I was among one of those not ‘on-track’. But what to do? We Indians are like this only:)]

Farzana: My guess was wrong! I thought this article to be pushed to ``previous page`` over the weekend and that decreased my intensity of moderating or interacting because I seldom visit previous page. After certain number of replies on such a hot topic, the discussions on chowk turn to debating with elevating temperature and tempraments. Under such conditions, rheroic runs supreme in rebuttals. The issues usually involve, Kashmir, Mohammad or Quran to which I have less informed and hense show less interest.

I took easy way out in one of my previous post by not disagreeing to Muslim rituals but considering them under the acute circumstances of infancy of Islam. Basically, it meant that I am not going to abide by them in my personal life under current conditions-circumcision being irreversible in general. In food whether dates or mangoes, it is availability, taste and nutrition value that counts and not the immitate the availability and taste of highly revered individuals. Otherwise, in my case, I will have to not only eat dates but drink ``soma`` too, only if I know what natural carbohydrates my ancestors used to brew such a strong drink that Punjabis became so fun-loving and intermixing with other castes under its influence that it got mentioned in Mahabharata in negative terms. Indian and Pakistani leaders need to drink soma and then discuss bilateral issues.

regards,

Sameer

Ref Farzana Versey #: 440

[Times have changed, but since these people insist on wearing THEIR shuttlecock burqas (No, Scout, it is not an Indian thing – it is that mesh strip near the eyes of the hijab, but some people like to use the word shuttlecock, because the latter part of the word lets them crow)]

Have you ever considered the possibility that the resemblance to a shuttlecock (the cloth covering the head, mesh near the eyes) is why I called it a shuttlecock burqa as opposed to ``the latter part of the word`` which lets me crow; you need to get your mind out of the gutter, Farzana.

[So, to either put it on a pedestal or crush it beneath one’s feet reveals a mindset full of pigeon crap and the smelling of the soles of the feet.]

Krashid, Ali1, Urstruly: Farzana says you have a mind full of pigeon-crap. Personally, I thought it was camel-dung.

[Everyone knows that in my country at least more Hindus commit bigamy. Sheer numbers, will be the response. But they aren’t supposed to, no?]

Not at all so. Hindus are not prohibited by their religion from having multiple wives. But a polygamist Hindu cannot get a government job. In fact, even to marry a second time, the man has to have a good reason such as not having a son AND must get consent in writing from the first wife. And he still cannot get a government job. These are not regulations enforced against Muslims of India.

You said, quoting me, {I hope you are heeding the sage advice you have got:)…[“Don`t let Farzana and others tell you that somehow there was an equivalent of a PhD qualifier examination, followed by a dissertation and an oral defense to get admitted to the Islamic fold. All you have to do is to recite ``La ilahi illallah Muhammed rasulallah``, have yourself circumcised and eat a dish of beef and you are now a Muslim. In the case of Americans who convert because of their desire to marry a Muslim woman, they have already passed the cut-dick and beef-eating portions (the practicals, as you might call it) and just have to do the viva voce.

The beef-eating part was to ensure that the guys don`t become Hindus the day after the thugs leave town.”]

Circumcision has become such a common practice that only illiterates assume you have to convert to get your foreskin detached. Of course, if you want your dick cut, then perhaps you have to join the ranks of hijras; there is no dearth of intellectual eunuchs here.

Beef-eating is quite prevalent among Hindus. In fact, I do not eat beef, my mother is vegetarian, and I was one too for four years. Once walking through a maidan in Thrissur, Kerala (which I consider my second home), I was with an acquaintance, Suresh. He saw a fat cow and commented, “You folks in North India (anyone beyond Karnataka in N.Indian for S. Indians) worship this, don’t you? When we look at a cow, we only think of eating it!” Ditto my Bengali friend who longingly looked at one specimen and said, “Wow, that looks like good steak!” In Rajasthan, at one of the haveli restaurants I was told about Marwari boys from good families who stealthily visited late at night for beef and daaru. So let us not pretend. There are only two states that can be called vegetarian – Tamil Nadu and Gujarat.}

I was talking about 10th century India when Hindus did not eat beef or get their children circumcised. I have been told that in 1947 during the Partition riots, the standard test to check if someone was a Muslim or Hindu before assaulting the person was to check for an intact foreskin. So you can brag all you want about your beef-eating Hindu friends but the fact remains that beef WAS prohibited to Hindus at the time of Islamic invasion and remained so until very recent times when Hindus have started frequenting McDonald`s.

You said, quoting me, {And for the path-breaking post now: [“Why should I not fling their atrocities in their face every chance I get? Why should I not ridicule their prophet for his revelations regarding kafirs or his personal sexual proclivities? Isn`t religion supposed to teach you moral behavior? How can anyone have sex with a 9-year-old? How can anyone marry the widow his nephew? Weren`t there any other eligible males in all of Arabia? Did Muhammed have to take care of everyone`s needs personally? Or was he taking care of his sexual needs first?

Why don`t the Islamic thugs respond with rebuttals? Because, they CANNOT!

They follow a barbaric religion and claim they are civilized. No f***ing way!”]

Moral behaviour from someone who talks like this?}

I am not writing Life`s Little Instruction Book for others to follow to the letter, am I? My life is not documented as the Sunnah, to be followed by everyone of my co-religionists, is it? I am NOT EVEN proclaiming the superiority of Manu`s Laws, the Vedas, or the Upanishads. So why do you worry about MY moral behavior?

So, answer the question: what makes a 56-year-old man have sex with a 9-year-old child, someone who is young enough to be his granddaughter, if not great-granddaughter?

[Why don’t the thugs respond with rebuttals? Hey, if the thugs started doing that, people like you wouldn’t be around, right?]

So, rebut me and make me leave Chowk covered in shame. I dare you, Farzana!

Dr. Krashid #437:

[I have no problem with religion per se or religious people.

In my opinion, religion had a large role to play in current condition of Muslims all over the world.

The points, I raised are important regarding the dynamism in Muslim societies, which is static at this point.]

I agree with your statement conditionally only. Perhaps, like yourself, all my family members are believing Muslims. At personal or iindividual level, there is no problem with trading love and respect with individuals of any faith. But, I suppose, we are not discussing religion at personal level. We are discussing influence of religion in society, public and government, in terms of its short-term and long-term effects. Let me put it in another way. Is it better to have as much religious influence in all sectors of Pakistan as we are currently experiencing? Has it contributed positively in any of the major areas of interest in Pakistan? I see it irrelevent considering crime rate, corruption, politics, feudalism, Kashmir, unity, peace, stability, development, economy, education, rights of minorities and women. I say it is either a by-stander or used (or abused) in a variety of ways, leading to more negative than positive results.

I have repeatedly stressed even the negative results of attaching to it passionately and spending extensive amount of time, energy and money on rituals. It is nothing personal against any one particular individual. You or Tahmed321, must be balancing your huqooq-e-Allah and huqooq-ul-ibad but average Pakistani neither have higher education, open mindedness and experience with other successful societies as you or I have. It is more of State responsibility to tone down their rhetoric, involvement and education/ textbooks to balance religion with rationality and propel universal values about morality and ethics in addition to teaching some balanced version of history.

regards,

Sameer

Re: Farzana #440

[There are only two states that can be called vegetarian – Tamil Nadu and Gujarat...]

Tamil Nadu? Vegetarian?? You must be cuckoo! Tamil non-veg cooking is one of the best in India. And you will find non-veg eateries there as easily as in Delhi or Bombay.

Vegetarianism in Tamil Nadu is mostly restricted to the Brahmins who form some 5% or less of the population.

Krashid # 437

It is not easy to look objectively at one`s own `religion,.` On that score, you have my congratulations.

The truest love for one`s religion/culture consists in recognizing its follies and working to correct them. If we have a child or a mother, and they are coughing terribly, we can either

1. take them to the doctors, get medicine, and administer that medication, howsoever unpleasant;

or,

2. go around claiming that they are not coughing at all, but actually singing a beautiful song in a language no one can understand without some `special` training.

For some strange reason, people seem to prefer the latter option. What kind of love is that?

harimau #435

I noticed my blunder as soon as submitted the post. Can`t offer any excuses. My fault.

Regards

Random Thoughts:

It is hilarious that people still assume that Muslims only eat dates, don’t wash, keep 4 women, and consider Saudi Arabia their Utopia. Times have changed, but since these people insist on wearing THEIR shuttlecock burqas (No, Scout, it is not an Indian thing – it is that mesh strip near the eyes of the hijab, but some people like to use the word shuttlecock, because the latter part of the word lets them crow), all they are interested in is seeing things only from their limited perspective. No religion can ever qualify as a panacea; it can at best be a reprieve. So, to either put it on a pedestal or crush it beneath one’s feet reveals a mindset full of pigeon crap and the smelling of the soles of the feet.

Everyone knows that in my country at least more Hindus commit bigamy. Sheer numbers, will be the response. But they aren’t supposed to, no? Regarding the stifling atmosphere in Saudi, my good Hindu friends tell me that the Indians working there have a ball. In fact, ask any mechanic/electrician/carpenter from Kerala just how much fun he has when he goes to fix matters in the Sheikh’s household, when the lord and master is away.

dost-mittar, in your response to me (#372), you stated, “Your observations about Bohras, Khojas and other Gujrati muslims are also borne out by my own experience. In fact, some of the Kutchies are regulars at Hindu/Indian cultural events. I have often wondered why they are so different from North Indian muslims in this respect. I am afraid, too, that

if the saffron brigade continues with its practices in Gujarat, these moderate muslims may not remain moderate for too long.” Don’t you think that this regional divide is applicable to all religious communities? Why single out Muslims as being different from one region to another? Btw, at least one Gujarati Muslim here cannot be honoured as a moderate, or will you consider me one?!

I hope you are heeding the sage advice you have got:)…[“Don`t let Farzana and others tell you that somehow there was an equivalent of a PhD qualifier examination, followed by a dissertation and an oral defense to get admitted to the Islamic fold.

All you have to do is to recite ``La ilahi illallah Muhammed rasulallah``, have yourself circumcised and eat a dish of beef and you are now a Muslim. In the case of Americans who convert because of their desire to marry a Muslim woman, they have already passed

the cut-dick and beef-eating portions (the practicals, as you might call it) and just have to do the viva voce.

The beef-eating part was to ensure that the guys don`t become Hindus the day after the thugs leave town.”]

Circumcision has become such a common practice that only illiterates assume you have to convert to get your foreskin detached. Of course, if you want your dick cut, then perhaps you have to join the ranks of hijras; there is no dearth of intellectual eunuchs here.

Beef-eating is quite prevalent among Hindus. In fact, I do not eat beef, my mother is vegetarian, and I was one too for four years. Once walking through a maidan in Thrissur, Kerala (which I consider my second home), I was with an acquaintance, Suresh. He saw a fat cow and commented, “You folks in North India (anyone beyond Karnataka in N.Indian for S. Indians) worship this, don’t you? When we look at a cow, we only think of eating it!” Ditto my Bengali friend who longingly looked at one specimen and said, “Wow, that looks like good steak!” In Rajasthan, at one of the haveli restaurants I was told about Marwari boys from good families who stealthily visited late at night for beef and daaru. So let us not pretend. There are only two states that can be called vegetarian – Tamil Nadu and Gujarat. My friend, incidentally a RSS sympathizer, has a case filed against him by the saffron brigade because he wrote about the protein content in cow meat. And he loves Muslim boys. He sleeps with them. Yes, he is gay. I suppose at some basic level, we all love one another!

Arun, how could you have such a sagely attitude towards the ranter around…almost paternal [“Would your style of discourse have the effect you desire on someone like you ? If not why do you think it will work on everyone else ?”] when I have not been spared for far less damaging things? Just idle curiosity, really.

And for the path-breaking post now: [“Why should I not fling their atrocities in their face every chance I get? Why should I not ridicule their prophet for his revelations regarding kafirs or his personal sexual proclivities? Isn`t religion supposed to teach you moral behavior? How can anyone have sex with a 9-year-old? How can anyone marry the widow his nephew? Weren`t there any other eligible males in all of Arabia? Did

Muhammed have to take care of everyone`s needs personally? Or was he taking care of his sexual needs first?

Why don`t the Islamic thugs respond with rebuttals? Because, they CANNOT!

They follow a barbaric religion and claim they are civilized. No f * * *ing way!”]

Moral behaviour from someone who talks like this? How can you have sex with a 9-year-old? Question asked by someone who lives in a country where child marriage, ashram sexcapades, devadasi sacrifices are common? Marrying the widow of his nephew? Better than sleeping with father-in-law, brother-in-law, don’t you think? And what about the maama-bhanji alliances in many communities? The devar-bhabhi rishtas? Cannot see? Did the Prophet have to take care of everyone’s need personally? No, I think he delegated some, which is why Islam has so many Imams. Are they one too many for you to handle? As for taking care of his sexual needs first, I assume that the angel Gabriel did some whispering in the Prophet’s ears, and since Islam has a deep respect for Christianity, the aural region assumes great significance. Perhaps that was one of the prerequisites. Anyway, I like the fact that the libido of its practitioners is alive and kicking. You have a problem? Why don’t the thugs respond with rebuttals? Hey, if the thugs started doing that, people like you wouldn’t be around, right? Who claims the followers of Islam are civilized? They are still enjoying camel rides, digging for oil in the desert (since they get their Evian from elsewhere) and using boom-boom stuff to bring down historical relics (instead of the hammering the others have to resort to at home, poor things). No way. Yeeeeeeoooooow. Barbarianism came from the word Babar, don’t you think?

And krashid, I did not like you calling India a gutter. There are some elements around that might qualify. Though again, let me refresh people’s memory. A certain moderate Hindu, an expat, had said a while ago when he was to visit India on a holiday that he could smell the gutter. There was not a cheep of protest or comment from anyone, except yours truly. I guess it takes a jalaad Mussalman to take up for her people. Look, didn’t I tell you, the Prophet delegated?

Sameer, how did you like moderating this board? I know I was among one of those not ‘on-track’. But what to do? We Indians are like this only:)

LOL (Lots of love, of course, to all),

krashid #428:

I just think that the fact that Jinnah was a Shia should be highlighted more in Pakistan today, in order to alleviate Sunni-Shia tensions.

harimau #435:

``[Drona Charya]

If you remove Acharya (teacher, respected person) from the name, do you see how the name becomes Drone?

Just a borderline thought.``

Drona means some kind of basket or trough... Drona was found as a baby floating in a basket in a river and was hence called Drona.

Looks like putting babies in baskets on the river was a popular pastime in the past - Drona, Karna, Moses...

Zahra #427

I have no problem with religion per se or religious people.

In my opinion, religion had a large role to play in current condition of Muslims all over the world.

The points, I raised are important regarding the dynamism in Muslim societies, which is static at this point.

The points I raised were the sanctity of Fatwa or the role of Ulema. Is the role of Ulema in our society as a pimp of rulers to keep people in check? Or is it as a guide to help them solve the daily matters in their life?

What is the limitation of Ulema`s knowledge? Are they competent enough to comment on scientific or economic matters? Do they want us to live in a utopia while practical living is left on day to day forces?

Have you ever heard of the life of duplicity? Consider christians. Their theory of sins of christians being taken away by Jesus leaves them in a sinful state while guaranteeing them heaven. Does Islam has any such concept, that because a person is Muslim, he will go to heaven ultimately because he is a Muslim? Yes? So is there any difference. No?. But these thoughts are propagated in the name of Islam? No wonder, Muslims with power do all crimes, including drinking, formnication, human rights abuse etc and go scott free. Because Muslims are not guided to see a persons action as criteria of goodness.

This has historical roots. Where rulers and their cronies with few exceptions throughout Islamic history were drunkard, with big Harems etc. And people were told by Ulema to accept them for the greater good of Muslims. If one has to accept the greater good of Muslims as criteria, rather than God`s commandment, why a person should not convert to a religion which is giving greater good to its members.

Now it is not that we want our Maulvis or scholars to guide us. But they have taken the task themselves to guide us in the name of God.

Are they fulfilling their duty? Or they just want to keep their control over people`s mind in the name of God?

People are coming on this board, justifying all kind of criminal acts by Muslim rulers of past as if that is consonant with Islam. In recent history people are justifying criminal massacre of Bengalis in the name of Islam.

There is the dilemma. If I condone that action, I don`t consider myself judging according to the teachings of Islam. But the people who are considered the true Muslim are intent on justifying those actions as Islam.

I can give you a relevant example. Monotheist Christians are not considered christians by mainstream christians. Mainstream Christians represent the Christianity. While according to my outlook monotheist Christians are more near to the teachings of Jesus.

Eklayva #424:

``The Sikhs or Nanakshahis are followers of the Muslim Sufi saint Nanak Shah; hence Khalistan is a natural part of Mughalstan``

Some things are too preposterous, and some people are too ignorant and demented to take seriously.

regards

Harpreet

Ref friend #: 404

[Drona Charya]

If you remove Acharya (teacher, respected person) from the name, do you see how the name becomes Drone?

Just a borderline thought.

Ref krashid #: 426

[Gabriel recited to prophet PBUH who remembered it. The recitation was then written by scribes and other people also used to remember by heart.]

How good was Muhammed`s memory? How soon after the dictation was Al-Kitab written down? How good were the memories of others? Why can`t they tell us with certainty if Ayesha was 6 or 9 years old when Muhammed married her? How come so many versions of Muhammed`s life exist with contradictions, leading to centuries of ``research`` to determine which version is correct? If you can`t tell me with certainty why these contradictions exist, why should anyone assume that Al-Kitab is error-free?

[Although it is difficult for you to understand, but let me try.]

Now you know why it IS very hard for me to understand.

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Layman #418

So called Sunni fanatics including those Mullahs who sided with Congress against Pakistan or were against creation of Pakistan are forced in Pakistan to accept Jinnah as the only non controversial leader of nation.

In fact it is the liberals who sometimes bad mouth Jinnah and Mullahs come to defend Jinnah and Pakistan.

Irony man irony.

KRashid:

Thanks for the explanation! I think there is slight misunderstanding here. Your examples dealt with students and their pranks; mine were related to the ones who were in academia. I also have a lot of examples of the type that you`ve mentioned - of some teachers[not mine, of course], who in the electronic, physics or chemistry class[In the 1st/ 2nd years of engineering] would check women`s nail-polishes. In the Islamiyat class, will embarrace women by putting silly questions and comments. But those were individual actions than a group`s. Then the students` groups, who were nothing[Ulloos] but full of themselves[guys with damn ego problems] and just because they could fire one or two shots they started considering themselves as gods. Where the hell were their ``aql`` at that time? I find it nothing, but fake pride and ego that needed some vent - power vent! Had these people been so wise and nursed any noble intentions, they could have done a lot for their fellow students or the areas they hailed from. Some might have done that. But I think a lot more could have been acheived than just keeping mozars(sp?)in the back pocket and doing heart-warming ``naa`ra baazi.``

Do not get me wrong here. Religion is and has been abused in our country. There are many fine ways of doing that, but as Romair very rightly pointed out in one of his posts that the maulvis are not ready to take over the country so there are other issues that one should focus on. One should not feel threatened about it, unless the past affiliations(bad memories) force one to take some action.


You also have to realize that each person has a limit to their understanding and in some respect to their knowledge. You will not go and talk to a physical therapist about process control and expect him to understand your views. Similarly, you willn`t discuss things, which are very close to your heart with a stranger, and expect him to understand where you are coming from[You may end up doing that once you realize that the stranger can be on the same wavelength. So a correction here!]. In light of that, do recognize that your maulvis will have/have a lot of limitations. Their mind is not going to be that practical as yours, mainly due to the exposure, prioroties in life and the profession. So why expect them to be aware of all that you know. Personally, I would never waste my time on this issue. Listen to the ones you would like to. If you ever get a chance, do listen to an African American Imam - Siraj Wahaj. Stay away from Humza Yousaf`s clan. Also, do not ever waste your time listening to any Jamaati Leader as they have nothing to add to your knoweldge except chanting the ins-and-outs of Jamaat and its leaders. Complete waste of time! Again, the above has been my personal experiences and I would not generalize them.

Hope it resolves some ambiguities that can possibly be detrimental to the human race :-)

Take Care.

Harimau #423

Although it is difficult for you to understand, but let me try.

Gabriel recited to prophet PBUH who remembered it. The recitation was then written by scribes and other people also used to remember by heart.

Np, Studebaker is wrong. Dictaphone was not invented in 7th century.

I think this clarifies the matter.

I understand the difficulty of understanding allegorical way and symbolism, particularly if a person has a straight way of thinking.

Eklavya #424

And I am going to make my empire in the tradition of Napolean and Alexander :-)

Dimagh Ki Kharabi Ka Ilaaj Kia Hai.

I have never heard of such concept in my whole life. May be the person is one of the distant relative of Ahmed Shah Rangeela and is writing from asylum.

Or may be a charlatan, of which there is no dearth these days.

Any way it is good that the more civil we are getting on Chowk, more we are moving away from real issues.

Bum, Mum Jha Jha.

Re:SameerJB#401

Sameer,

India has always had pretty good relations with the Islamic world, in spite of the best efforts by Pakistan to create this notion of ``clash of civilizations`` at the Indo-Pak border. As you know, India was and remains a strong supporter of the Palestinians. India supported Saddam, when even Pakistan joined the US alliance against Iraq. It had good relations with the Saudis, Turkey, Iran and Central Asian regions. India is now building up on that foundation to develop greater geo-strategic relationships with the Islamic world.

The obvious motivation is commercial interests. India is a vast market for energy while the middle-east and central asia are the main sources of energy in the world. Secondly India eyes these markets for selling its products and services. The Islamic countries have a high regard for Indian professionals, especially in IT. In fact, India is fast replacing Pakistan as the supplier of skilled professionals to the Islamic world. In addition, India is also seeking defence agreements with countries like Iran, in order to build up its clout as a regional power. This is tacitly encouraged by US as a means to restrain China.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, it has actually left a vaccum in the Islamic world by focusing too much on Kashmir and Afghanistan. The obsession with these two areas has reduced Pakistan`s resources and capability to purse a strong policy of engagement with the Islamic world. In many cases, the Taliban phenomenon has turned off the Islamic world in a significant manner. As it is, Iran actively supports India and scuttles every move made by Pakistan at the OIC meetings. Hence as Pakistan gets enmeshed in Kashmir and Afghanistan, India is moving in and filling up the vaccum that Pakistan has left behind. The Taliban are also responsible for a total lack of economic cooperation in the Islamic world since the Islamic countries want to shun the Taliban. The irony is that if Pakistan actually uses its geo-strategic location effectively, it could become one of the wealthiest nations by simply facilitating trade and commerce between India and the Islamic world. Instead it is focussed on a destructive rivalry against India. The Islamic world has grown tired of all of that and they want to move on.

* * Gopal Gurung * *

Studebaker # 413

Check out the following website that is arguably the primary source of information on Gopal Gurung`s pathbreaking historical research.

http://www.dalitstan.org/

Amongst the many laudatory missions of this website is the establishment of a Mughalstan.

The website managers explain their goal as follows:

``we will break India once more and re-unite with our brethren in Pakistan and Bangladesh to form the greatest nation of the world - Mughalstan, ``The Land of Mughal-Muslims`` . Mughalstan is ``Greater Pakistan``, or ``Pakistan No. 2``. In other words, Mughalstan is ``India`s Bosnia`` - a nation within a nation. Mughalstan will Inshallah consist of the following coterminous territories :

PAKISTAN comprising Punjab, Afghanistan, Kashmir and Sindh.

BANGISTAN or Greater Bangladesh, comprising modern Bangladesh, southern Assam and the surrounding Muslim-dominated regions.

KHALISTAN, the Sikh Nation of Sufi Muslims. The Sikhs or Nanakshahis are followers of the Muslim Sufi saint Nanak Shah; hence Khalistan is a natural part of Mughalstan.

ROHILSTAN, northern Uttar Pradesh or `Rohilkhand`, with a 60 % Muslim population.

MALWASTAN or Malwa in Madhya Pradesh.

BIHARISTAN comprising the Muslim-dominated regions formerly known as `Magadha` in southern Bihar, and of course.

KASHMIR, the Crown of Mughalstan.``

I won`t describe the website in detail, lest the joy of discovery be lost. But following are some of the articles the website hosts:

1. Hinduism is Cow-Worship !

2. Bin Laden plans Restoration of Mughalstan

3. Maps of Mughalstan

4. Large Map of Mughalstan

5. A fine large map of Mughalstan by Pan-Islamic Mughalstan

6. Map of Ethnically Partitioned South Asia

7. International Mujahedin

8. Archives of Masood Azhar`s Speeches and the International Freedom-Fighters



9. `The Mujahedin are the moral equivalent of the Founding Fathers of America`

10. Brahminists support Zionist attack on Afghanistan



11. Hindu fanatics supporting Clinton`s madman attack

12. `Advani - I`m Back !`

Maulana Masood Azhar`s first speech on gaining freedom

13. Brahminist Genocide against Muslims: Several articles on the massacres

14. Hinduism`s 1500-Year War against Islam

15. The War of 1500 Years

Studebaker, it is sheer coincidence that the people you quote have such an enlightened and truthful world-view. In any case, I am glad you have hit upon a goldmine!! I expect a lot of cut and paste on authentic history now :)

Ref Studebaker #: 383

[Have you ever heard of transcripsitionists using dictaphone Dimm Witt ?????

Now dont tell me you didnt know Dictation was invented in 7th century --LOL ;-)Seriously ,most authoritative executive dont & cant write legiblly .]

So, Angel Jibreel dictated into a dictaphone and Muhammed called the local equivalent of Kelly`s Girls to transcribe from tape on to paper? Is that your explanation of how an illiterate Muhammad wrote down Al-Kitab?

Have you tried writing a letter to this effect to ``Dawn`` or ``Jung``? How about to a nice Urdu newspaper in your hometown in India with your local address?

Ref ali1 #: 402

[Why can`t Reliance Infocom hire from the one billion bhooka nanga Indians? We know you guys are severely malnourished but surely you can pick up the shovel and dig?]

They will be using a Ditch Witch to dig those trenches. They want to finish the work in less than 2 years. So, you can forget about bhooka-nanga Indians or booka-nanga Pakistanis working in the millions to get the network done.

Ref AAmir #: 415

[IS YOUR SKULL MADE OF CONCRETE?]

No, but yours seems to be. See below.

[How many times do WE have to tell you BHUMIYAN belong to 25 million asfghanis muslims.REST 1 bn. dont own or rule over it SLOW LEARNER!!]

Isn`t that the same crap you guys have been peddling for a couple of centuries, once the British came to India and freed the Hindus from the grips of opium-eating, wine-drinking, dissolute Mughal sultans? That Muslims didn`t do it; it was just a few guys. So, this time it is Afghan Muslims. What motivated them to do it? Any idea? Do you read the papers? Did you get to understand the press releases by Foreign Minister Muttawakil and Emir Mullah Omar of Afghanistan?

[There is no central authority in Islam that o.k. yed it En.uuufff!]

Oh no! There IS a central authority. Life`s Little Instruction Book, Al-Kitab, otherwise known as the Quran. If you don`t think so, why don`t you walk down the streets of Peshawar calling out that Muhammed is a child molester and that the Quran is a fraud? You will see if there is a central authority or not in Islam!

[IF YOU HAD PRIDE HARI,YOU WOULD HAVE REMAINED BUDDHIST THAT PREDECESSORS OF HINDU & ALL WERE AS IT WAS THERE EVEN BEFORE HINDUISM!!!!?????]

There was Hinduism before Buddhism and there is Hinduism AFTER Buddhism. My forefathers were never Buddhists. We exported that religion outside India to China, Southeast Asia, Burma, Japan, and Sri Lanka. A very popular export, from what I understand but never met the local needs.

[you just another Coolies from India]

Is driving a cab getting to you?

China welcomed India and Iran`s efforts to bring peace in Afghanistan. China said on Monday that it welcomed all international efforts, including those by India, which could bring peace and stability to war-torn Afghanistan.

``China welcomes and supports all efforts that are

conducive to a peaceful resolution of the Afghanistan issue,`` foreign ministry spokeswoman Zhang Qiyue said when asked to comment on whether China saw a role for India in resolving the tangle.

Indian Prime Minister Vajpayee`s made a ground-breaking visit to Tehran during which the situation in Afghanistan figured prominently in talks with Iranian leaders.

China has expressed its concern about the Islamic

militancy in Afghanistan and its suspected links with an Islamic Uygur separatist movement in its northwestern Xinjiang province.

At the same time, the Chinese foreign ministry

spokeswoman said she had not read a statement made by Indian Prime Minister Vajpayee during his trip to Iran in which he described the Taleban as a ``threat to regional stability``.

Zhang pointed out that the civil war in Afghanistan had been going on for more than 20 years, which had not only made all the people suffer a lot but also brought a ``negative influence`` to peace and stability in

the region.

``Therefore, we hope Afghanistan can realise peace at an early date,`` she commented.

FYI : An American scholar will be publishing a paper shortly, I will post the citation when it is available. Meanwhile, here is a comment from him :

“While conducting my dissertation research in Tashkent, Uzbekistan I stumbled across the Majmu`a-i Wasaiq and found entry after entry referring to Indian slaves in Samarqand. I knew I had found something interesting, but I had no idea how to interpret the find until I was looking into the literature on Islamic expansion in India and noticed the mass exportation of recalcitrant tribes people. So much for the politically correct notion of a history of uniformly peaceful coexistence between Muslims and Hindus in India. It`s easy to criticize the exportation figures as exaggerated; it`s another to criticize the judicial records of Central Asian Qadis.”

This is another of those painful things from our history that we will have to come to terms with.

-Arun the I.

friend #403, ylh #300:

I remember reading recently that Jinnah was born into a Shia family. I wonder how this sits with Sunni fanatics in Pakistan who want to declare Shias non-Muslim...

Re: Ali1 #402

``bhooka nanga Indians?``

Yaar, check out the new India -- things have changed. Granaries are overflowing -- WTO restrictions have brought in all the goodies of the world (New Zealand kiwi fruit, European cheeses, etc.) Food prices are very low. Gone are the days of the Bengal famine of 1940(?). Did you read the article that I posted a link to about how life has changed in towns like Aurangabad?

Here is something more in the press about the current discussion. Indian foreign policy experts have been quite intrigued about Bush`s decision to appoint a Vulcan as the ambassador to India.



Bush`s Man In Delhi







Robert D. Blackwill, the next US Ambassador to India, will arrive in New Delhi at an important time for Indo-US relations. The implications of the appointment of Mr. Blackwill, a high-profile former diplomat, are unclear at this point, much like the substance of the Bush administration`s India policy. Mr. Blackwill, a scholar-practitioner, is known to be an individual thinker and a man who takes his work very seriously, and there is no doubt that he will leave his own distinct imprint on Indo-US relations.

Robert Blackwill is very much a powerful Bush insider, with strong ties to both generations of the Bush family. He worked for George Bush senior when he was President, and was member of the tight foreign policy team that advised Governor George W. Bush during the presidential campaign, serving as Senior Foreign Policy Advisor. Last December, the New York Times mentioned his name in a group of the 10 most influential foreign policy experts who worked most closely with Bush in formulating his foreign policy. This group included such heavy-hitters as Dick Cheney, Condoleeza Rice, former Assistant Secretary of Defense Richard Armitage, former Secretary of State George Shultz, Under-Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz, and former Under-Secretary of State Robert Zoellick.

Robert Blackwill has a lot in common with these individuals - all of them are staunch Republicans who worked with administrations that were steeped in Cold War strategic thinking where security calculations drove foreign policy. Most of them worked together combating the Soviet Union and later expanding American influence in post-Cold War Europe, and then served as hard line Pentagon strategists in the 1991 Persian Gulf War. Mr. Blackwill, like Condoleeza Rice, is an expert on Soviet and Western European countries. As a diplomat he served as Director of West European Affairs on the National Security Council staff, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs, and US Ambassador and Chief Negotiator at the negotiations on the Warsaw Pact on conventional forces in Europe. In his most high-profile position, he served at the White House as Special Assistant to President George Bush for European and Soviet Affairs in 1989-`90.

Mr. Blackwill has also had a distinguished academic career at Harvard`s Kennedy School of Government, as the Belfer Lecturer in International Security before his appointment. He was known for managing innovative programs that brought Russian and Chinese military officers to the US to study at the Kennedy School. He also chaired the School`s Middle East initiative.

Like the foreign policy triumvirate of Powell, Rumsfeld and Cheney, he is experienced and is comfortable in dealing with strategic and national security concerns. Most of his scholarly work has focused on issues such as conventional arms control, new nuclear nations, America`s traditional Asian alliances with Australia, Japan and South Korea, and the problems and prospects of nuclear non-proliferation. Mr. Blackwill shares the challenge facing the Bush administration today of trying to balance the two powerful trends running through the Republican approach -- on the one hand a pro-business and free trading side, and on the other, a more hawkish side that sees the whole world through the prism of national security. India will have to hope that Mr. Blackwill is willing to go beyond his strategic background and engage India on its own terms as a nation that has much to offer for the mutual prosperity of both nations.

Mr. Blackwill appears to share the common view in Washington that US foreign policy in the years ahead will need to shift its focus from Europe and the Atlantic region to the Asia-Pacific region. He is known to be keenly interested in China, the pivotal country in the region for the US, and Washington gossip has him labelled as a bit of a ``panda-hugger`` -- a position which cannot be wildly popular with the current administration. Given China`s enormous importance militarily and economically, Mr. Blackwill has advocated a more tactful policy towards China in the past. A lesson Bush might well have heeded, seeing how the mismanagement and conflicting signals from the White House had led to the 11-day impasse over the American spy plane that crash-landed on Chinese territory.

Mr. Blackwill has argued that the US should see Asia as an inter-related region, where multilateral engagements provide the best means of dealing with a large number of potential tensions -- hence the importance of US ties to Australia, Japan and South Korea. This has an important implication for India - India is a prime candidate for joining such a multilateral engagement alongside the US, particularly given their stated interest in not having a hegemon (China) in Asia, particularly a hostile one. With the recent trouble in US-China relations, it is more than likely that US interests will focus more sharply on India as a means of balancing Chinese power. This, however, should not be a cause for celebration in India, which must learn from Pakistan`s experience of being a pawn in larger `Great Power` games. India ought to stick to its demand that it be engaged as an entity in its own right.

How the broader US-India relationship evolves remains to be seen, but it will be interesting to see how Blackwill manages the complex triangular relationship between India, the US and China. Ideally, such a relationship would bring about a `virtuous circle` - where harmonious bilateral relations between any two states will draw in the third -- but that might be too much to expect. Mr. Blackwill`s diverse background promises a tenure full of potential, so long as India is not subsumed by Cold War-type calculations.

Mandavi Mehta works with the Washington D.C. based think tank, Center for Strategic and International Studies. The views expressed here are her own and do not reflect those of her organization.

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ALL:

Check out what`s been happening in the sleepy old town of Aurangabad in the heart of India:

Keeping Up With the Shidhayes: India`s New Middle Class

By JAMES TRAUB (NY Times)

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/04/15/magazine/15INDIA.html?ex=988380026&ei=1&en=16767d1aba4f9182

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Sameer #: 401

The focus of the current Indian govt. is Trade with the middle east countries. There is also a “look east” initiative in the Indian foreign policy. There has been a lot of effort by the govt. to increase our trade with south east Asian countries. Corporate India has been pushing for moving from a ideology based foreign policy to a foreign policy that caters to our economic interests first. Association of Indian Industries has been pushing for this change for the last decade. We don’t want to be in a situation where our international trade is limited to the western countries.

I don’t think there is any overt anti Pakistani bias to this effort. In fact India is moving away from a foreign policy when we could not have close relations with countries that supported Pakistan. It serves India well to increase our international trade. In fact our trade with china is nearly $3 billion now and growing rapidly.

Regards,

Faruk

Re Sammer BJ #401

More Spin than anything else. The Americans are yet to evolve a majority consensus on what course of action they should embark on in domestic and global terms. They need to develop a clear definition of the post cold war world, a strategic mission statement of their role in the woprld. The lack of a clear concensus is reflected in the recent presidential elections. A global realignment has been taking shape since Mr. Y. Primakov suggested a trilateral grouping of Russia, China and India to counter American unipolarity. A Sunni revolution is very, very slowly gathering strength. Americans are clear that such a grouping is a real challenge and that amongst this group, India is most amenable, and least likely to be confrontational to American interests. India has been able to woo the American, Russian; the EU and especially France have made it clear that they will have an independent (not necessarity anti-American) foreign policy. The Taliban seem to have wasted their opportunity.

What is really interesting is India`s offer to police the Indian ocean and Persian gulf. Such a role has met with a negative reaction from Saudis (for the time being) Iran, an economic basked case till very recently, for too long as allowed to get away with a policy built on the sentiment ``are you a Muslim or Sunni?`` and the usual historic claim to grandeur, has decided that Iraq is no longer a threat and that it will have vassals in Afghanistan. They have provided men and material to the NA. Possibly it will play into the hands of those do not respect the territorial integrity of Afghanistan. Brotherly nations demonstrate their brotherlyness in cooperation and not the usurpation of fruits of their brother`s sacrifice. The recent decision to purchase Russian defense equipment is strategic in it`s implication for industry and economy. While the Indian PM carried a message on behalf of Bush to Khatami, Iran`s reintegration into the Western political economy remains elusive.

More than any other Power, it is the U.S. that finds itself isolated. Israel robs it of it`s cloak among the Arabs (even these so-called Maliks, Ameers and Presidents need a modicum of legitmacy amongst their populace). Sunni Islam, lethargic and slow to anger, every day gains strength. This pot has many, many more years to boil. The silence of the Europeans in the recent tiff with the Chinese, is deafening. The East Asians have made it clear they are in no mood to finance miltary conflict. The Turks have awakened to find that Bankers have decided the fate of their economy and IMF to the rescue; Turkish ambition to seek succor on the mean streets. The degree to which the Indian develops deeper relations with these countries, only good can come to the people of India and of these countries. Pakistan`s relationship with these countries has a different dynamic, a different rational. The Azaan will mean next to nothing to the Indian, whether in Riyadh, Tehran or Ankara.

These alignments are not necssarily bad for Pakistan, on one condition though: Pakistan must evolve a stable, representative, republican, transparent, Islamic political system. Tall order. The usual complaint will be the ``Islamic`` aspect of this Order. But this Order is a requirement of history, culture and sentiment and this Order need not be Anti-American, or Chinese or Indian. Pakistan`s survival is linked to it`s will to do so and to it`s relationship with the PRC. A Fauj, Islamic, republican, in it`s institutional orientation, an integral, nation building partner of the political apparatus is needed to anchor the nation. The world respects those who respect themselves, who have decided, who it is that they are! Pakistan cannot continue to be a Muslim nation whose institutions are anything but. Republicanism is an Islamic value. Brotherhood and equality of Man, Freedom of conscionce, enterprise, of intellect, and freedom of choice are Islamic values.

The Saudi (imagine the depravity of a Muslim country, a monarchy, named after a family) have impressed upon the Indian their desire that India develop friendly (correct, would be a good start) relations with Pakistan. The Iranian has decided to bleed in Afghanistan. The new aspirants can no longer claim to suffer from ``terrorist`` or ``terrorism`` as they now have become partisans with no cloak to hide behind.

Sameer,

There need be no implications to Pakistan of India`s diplomatic efforts with Turkey, Iran and Saudi Arabia, if Pakistan stops viewing its relationships with these countries as zero-sum games being played against India.

i.e., Iran will continue to be as keen to improve ties with Pakistan in trade. investment, education and cultural exchanges, common security concerns, anti-narco-terrorism pacts, tourism, etc. But Iran will not be anti-India as a condition for these; and nor will Iran be anti-Pakistan as a condition for the same with India.

-Arun Gupta

Eklavya # 387: You can have several interpretations of religious stories. The best ones are those where interpretation is used to your advantage and to extract some useful message out of it, not the ones which build a better image of the characters involved in the story. The image building of the personalities involved does not help the long dead seers and ``good`` people. Their image has already been well established through belief systems. This is very common with Muslims too where most of the interpretations are used to justify the actions and sayings of revered people as if they xontinuously need any image building. Arun may be right in suggesting that mere image the goodness of good people is good enough to do good as Eklavya did with the image of Dronacharya.

Having watched another version of Mahabharata myself several years ago on PBS (by Peter Brooks and not the Indian one), I also felt pity for Eklavya and did not think of any message coming out if this story. Now just for the sake of trying to interpret in a useful way, here is a wild one, from a non-Hindu and not well-informed.

Dronacharya had achieved mastery in his skills, but not absolute perfection in all aspects of life. Absolute perfection is only associated with the highest one, God. This leaves the door open to further thinking and knowledge as banyan or palm trees need to keep growing to be attractive. Perfection ends the process of further learning. The religions must keep reinventing and reinterpretating themselves according to the needs of time and space. Eklavya, though achieving mastery of his skills by employing the image of master did cut off his thumb. You can not hold pen and write without thumb, and less thinking as a consequence. It means that in blind faith, there are both rewards and drawbacks. The reward being mastery of skills in this case and drawback being a less thinking. The acceptance of no perfection of ideas for all time and space is actually a hallmark of eastern philosophies. It is much less macho or ego-centric than claiming middle eastern where by virtue of speaking on behalf of God, a case for less than perfect can not be made easily. Notice small white circle in black a black circle in white in the well familiar yin-yang picture. That is what less than absolute perfect means in addition to intertwining of good and bad.

Now this is totally a wild interpretation but a benefitial one to you without lowering the respect for the seers of your faith. If you have chosen to live by your faith, then it is better to interpret various aspects of your faith, to be helpful in modern world than merely helping the image of religious elders of distant past. The number of followers in millions or billions is in itself good enough for their image.

Harimau (#400) :

Thanks for satisfying my curiosity.

You cite the South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission, The idea of the Commission was to acknowledge the truth and thereby help in a reconciliation.

Do you think your writings on Chowk are helping achieve a similar goal ? Why would ``Islamic thugs`` following a ``barbaric religion`` be interested in truth or reconciliation ? I mean that truth and reconciliation are possible only when you acknowledge a degree of virtue and humanity in your adversary.

I think that there is no point in arguing with you about your beliefs, they do not seem to be open to revision. What I am suggesting is to you is that your methods are working against your stated goal. You should change it for selfish reasons. A change in your discourse will help in my selfish goal of being able to have civil discussion (and disagreement) on Chowk.

-Arun the I.

macgupta #394

Ref: Drona Charya,

Drona in Mahabharata comes out as a rather pitiable character. He initially attempts to earn living as a traditional gurukul teacher in a forest, living only of “dakshina – offering” from students. When he finds that his earning is not enough to guarantee even basic needs of his only child, Ashwathama, he approaches his school friend Drupad, who is now king. Drupad insults him. Drona now decides to sell his skills as teacher to highest bidder, rich Kauravas, get rich and earn all comforts for his only child. He accepts students only from his employer, Kauravas and their royal families. He not only rejects students like Karna and Eklavaya, but tries to make sure that his own students always come out on top. However, he is not a mercenary. Once he sold his loyalty to Kauravas, he remained loyal to them till end.

Drona’s story is more like a tragedy where you can sense his desperation and final break down when he accepts the employment as a teacher. In some of the writings, he is identified as the first teacher who taught for a salary.

I agree with you that Mahabarata appears to be a statement of people life as it actually happened rather than like Ramayana where everything is either total black or pure white.

Karna, Krishan, Arjun and Ashwathama appear to be among the few characters who have relatively positive attributes.

Regards

PS: Drona and Ashwathama are worthy of an article. You should write!

Ref: ylh #300

You tell Akash

``Are you the one who had earlier told me on another board that I didnot know enough History, and that Jinnah was a Parsi?

You are pathetically devoid of knowledge.``

YLH,

You are pathetically in delusion of your knowledge. Few months back, you were the one claiming that all Prime Ministers of India were Brahmins and when given a long list of non-brahmin PMs you retreated in shell. You were touting J N Mondal and when told that he, with much disappointment, had to resign and move to In dia, went into hiding.

It just shows that acceptance criteria in US schools is not very stringent.

Reply #: 398 shammi

[``Tahmed321:

If only somehow those unemployed men with picks and shovels that you speak about could be sent to India, while leaving any AK-47s behind. Reliance Infocom is spending $7.7 bn digging roads to build a 60,000 km high bandwith optical fibre network linking 167 cities in India with fibre leading to every house. There is a tremendous need for construction labor laying the pipes.``]

Why can`t Reliance Infocom hire from the one billion bhooka nanga Indians? We know you guys are severely malnourished but surely you can pick up the shovel and dig?

Has Reliance Infocom figured out how to replace your open sewers with optical fiber cables? (Talk about priorities). Hopefully, all Indians will get the optical fiber network before they die of Bubonic Plague or cholera or some other such disease which they catch from their open air toilets.

What are the implications, from Pakistan’s perspective, of warming up relationship between India and Islamic world. How will US react to Indian warming up relationship with Iran or is it at the behest of US to stop Chinese influence in the region? At the same time, in this geo-political reallignment, Putin is trying to create an alliance between Russia, China and India. What it means for Pakistan? How should Pakistan react? Should we follow the recommendations of recently concluded Deoband conference?

The editorial of Hindu daily, dated Thursday, April 12, 2001 sheds some light on the Indian intention:

THE PRIME Minister, Mr. Atal Behari Vajpayee`s on-going visit to the Islamic Republic of Iran brings into bold relief one of the more exciting aspects of India`s current foreign policy - a conscious effort to engage the key nations of the Islamic world. Mr. Vajpayee`s visit to Iran follows the fruitful trip to Saudi Arabia by the External Affairs Minister, Mr. Jaswant Singh, in January - the first ever by an Indian Foreign Minister since Independence. The Union Home Minister, Mr. L. K. Advani, will set out one of these days to Turkey, which could also turn out to be a politically productive journey.

The wooing of these three significant West Asian nations at the highest political level in such a short time span highlights the intensity of the current Indian political thrust towards the Islamic world. It also reveals the breadth of the diplomatic blitzkrieg, for no three countries could be as divergent ideologically as Saudi Arabia, Iran and Turkey.

The Indian pas de deux with Iran, Turkey and Saudi Arabia is only one small slice of the Indian rediscovery of the Islamic world stretching from the Maghreb on the western fringes to Indonesia and Malaysia on the eastern edge. President Boutefleka of Algeria was the chief guest at this year`s Republic Day celebrations; Mr. Vajpayee has recently been in Jakarta and he will travel to Kuala Lumpur in the coming weeks. There has been an unending stream of other visitors from Arab and Islamic nations to India in the last few months, and Mr. Jaswant Singh has traveled to many Arab nations including such important ones as Egypt and Syria recently. Never before has Indian diplomacy seen such an expansive engagement with the Islamic world.

That this deliberate cultivation of the Islamic world should come from a Government in New Delhi widely viewed in the world as Hindu nationalist is perhaps one of the more interesting ironies of India`s external relations. There is no question that the foundation for India`s activism in West Asia was laid during Mr. Narasimha Rao`s tenure as Prime Minister. Driven by the imperatives of the post-Cold War world and the requirements of internal economic reform, the Rao Government began the reorientation of Indian diplomacy towards the Islamic nations. The Vajpayee Government, in the last three years, has given it a robustness that was badly needed.

Shaking off the past ideological prejudice addresses only one half of India`s problem in dealing with the Islamic world. The other half relates to India`s past defensiveness in relation to those espousing ideological causes in West Asia. India is beginning to appreciate that even those who wear the most tinted religious glasses in the Islamic world have a powerful streak of pragmatism that places national interest above ideology.

A second important transition in Indian policy is on the economic front - from the mercantilism of the past to the quest for deeper economic integration. In the past, India`s commercial policy towards the region had two elements - figuring out the best possible deals on oil purchases and counting the value of remittances from Indian expatriate labor in the Gulf. India is now talking about ``energy security`` that looks beyond buyer- seller relationships to a long-term integration of the hydrocarbon sectors and pipelines that calls for more enduring energy linkages. More fundamentally, India has begun to appreciate that peace and prosperity in the Gulf and the Subcontinent are inextricably intertwined.

Finally, the biggest transition has been India`s handling of the Pakistan factor in dealing with the Islamic world. In the past, India was peeved and put off by those countries that supported Pakistan in its conflicts with India, in particular over Kashmir. India has shunned for decades those nations which it saw as pro- Pakistan. For example, Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Iran were all seen earlier as being too close to Pakistan. But today, India is reaching out to these nations without a reference to the Pakistan factor.

India`s recent engagement of the Islamic world has often been misrepresented as a strategy to cut Pakistan off from its traditional allies and friends. That is farthest from the truth. What India is trying to do is transcend the Pakistan question and find ways to build mutually beneficial political and economic relationships with key Islamic states.

India no longer objects to the deep ties between Pakistan on the one hand and states such as Saudi Arabia and Turkey on the other. But India believes there is enough political and economic business that it can do with these countries without demanding an end to their ties with Pakistan. This new self-assurance and pragmatism are likely to bring significant strategic dividends to India in its engagement of the Islamic world.

Ikram Ullah writes in “The new strategic partnership” published in today’s edition of The Nation:

The hallmark of Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee`s recent four-day visit to Tehran is the emergence of a strategic partnership between the two countries. This has not happened suddenly. India`s Foreign Minister visited Tehran last year to initiate necessary spadework for this breakthrough. Iran`s President Muhammad Khatami visited Moscow last month to get Russia involved in a new strategic alliance to undermine the global grip of the sole superpower, the USA.

Because of the common disapproval of Afghanistan`s Taliban government by India, Iran, Russia and China, the fulfillment of the Indian design was made easier, more so by the open US hostility towards the Taliban in Afghanistan. While the Deoband Conference was being held in Pakistan, aimed at the unification of the Umma against anti-Islam forces, Vajpayee declared India`s commitment to peaceful and cooperative relations with Pakistan, as he overflew Pakistani air space en route to Iran.

Welcoming him, Iranian Foreign Minister Kamal Kharazi declared that Pakistan must work with Tehran and New Delhi to resolve the Afghanistan situation. As if it was not disturbing enough to involve New Delhi in Afghan affairs, Kharazi went on to say: ``Experience has proven the Afghan crisis had no military solution and that the warring sides in Afghanistan should sit down at the negotiating table``.

One has to wait before determination of the pious hope of the Chief Executive. Afghanistan is under UN sanctions. USA continues to deny recognition to the Taliban, which makes Rabbani the official Government, while the OIC sits on the fence. The international community`s opposition to the Taliban is mounting. Now comes the Tehran Declaration, in which our brotherly Muslim neighbour Iran has openly joined camp with India and Russia, not only against the Taliban, but also Pakistan. This new development is bound to impinge on Pakistan`s strategic and national security requirements. Clouds are gathering on Pakistan`s strategic horizon.

Vajpayee`s visit is only a small part of a storm blowing against Pakistan`s ultimate future as a sovereign state.

Dr. Manzur Ejaz writes in “Emerging Geo-Political Scene in Asia” published in todays edition of The News:

Obviously, India can be a major beneficiary if Sino-US trade relations are severed and another cold war gets underway. India`s economic gains for substituting China for supplying goods to the US are limited due its endemic production bottlenecks. Furthermore, India has its own aspirations to be recognized as a major world power. Recently published intelligence reports have shown that the US has reservations and concerns over the Indian ambitions. Nonetheless, under the present circumstances, the US has no choice but to prop up India for regional balancing even if, for now, it keeps a semblance of normalcy in its relations with China. Eventually, Sino-US rivalry on control over East Asia is inevitable and the Chinese belief of an unavoidable war may be much more realistic than recognized presently.

In this fast developing geopolitical scenario in Asia, Pakistan`s position does not appear to be enviable. Pakistan`s economic interests are closely linked with the US and other western powers while its geo-strategic goals are better severed by aligning with China. If US contradiction with China intensifies, Pakistan may not have much room to maneuver. It cannot afford to alienate the US because of reliance on financial assistance provided by US dominated international agencies and it can ill afford distancing itself from China because of defense needs. Pakistan will be in double jeopardy with not much to fall back on.

Ref macgupta #: 388

[Just idle curiousity, really.]

Why does South Africa have a Truth and Reconciliation Commission? So that they can illuminate the dark deeds of the apartheid regime so it will never happen again.

What do you see happening? Islamic thugs, supposedly well-educated and living in the liberal West, which they lose no time in condemning while enjoying the sizeable income and personal security it affords them, actually continue to support the Taliban and even think they should not apologize to Bangladesh for their atrocities.

Why should I not fling their atrocities in their face every chance I get? Why should I not ridicule their prophet for his revelations regarding kafirs or his personal sexual proclivities? Isn`t religion supposed to teach you moral behavior? How can anyone have sex with a 9-year-old? How can anyone marry the widow his nephew? Weren`t there any other eligible males in all of Arabia? Did Muhammed have to take care of everyone`s needs personally? Or was he taking care of his sexual needs first?

Why don`t the Islamic thugs respond with rebuttals? Because, they CANNOT!

They follow a barbaric religion and claim they are civilized. No f * * *ing way!

Re: Harimau #122

Your comment, ``Islam is evil``, is utterly irresponsible, and has no other intention but to hurt the sentiments of people other you. I do wish that you outgrow this childishness one day.

Tahmed321:

If only somehow those unemployed men with picks and shovels that you speak about could be sent to India, while leaving any AK-47s behind. Reliance Infocom is spending $7.7 bn digging roads to build a 60,000 km high bandwith optical fibre network linking 167 cities in India with fibre leading to every house. There is a tremendous need for construction labor laying the pipes.

Ciao

Zahra#

Sorry for :-( I took your post as this.

Religious teachings is also one aspect knowledge.

And your experience with religious people has been good. And example KRashid gave of people can be called hooliganism and not religious.

So I responded that according to democratic principles religious knowledge is one aspect of knowledge and this is good thing.

But when this knowledge reaches the stage of fascism when all other knowledge are considered useless and wrong. Moreover this concept is enforced by force.

But since force (sword) alone cannot take care of this thing. For example the belief that man has not yet reached the moon. So there is religious edict or Fatwa to enforce it. Because Fatwa can be equated with God`s will or intent theoretically.

Compare that to patriotism where the will is imposed with the help of force, but there is no religious sanctity to it. For example all people justifying action of Pakistan in East Pakistan are talking with the perspective of Patriotism with the force (sword) behind them.

But since this has no religious sanctity, a person can take stand against it especially when he is in USA.

I gave example of Fatwa regarding Napolean and Printing of Quran on printing press to show that, Fatwa is not God`s will. Neither is God sending Wahi so that we know whether Fatwa is right or wrong. What mechanism we have in place to believe in the truthfulness of Fatwa. There should be some mechanism of accountability, because of the sanctity of Fatwa in people`s eyes.

I think I am little more clear.

Or may be not. :-)

Regards.

Temporal #382

Looks like you are right.

This kind of rhetoric is something new for me.

And I am realizing the sage whether Mahajerzada (or you)

Pehley Insaan Phir Kuch Aur.

Regards.

Syudebaker #376

Agreed.

But still those remarks like smelly, dirty Muslim etc are out of question.

With ablution five times a day. And bathing on a regular basis.

Cleanliness for hairs etc.

If a person is Muslim and is not clean, I think there is something wrong.

As far as four wives or 10 or 1000. The question is sex needs to be a documented and legal thing.

Rather than ``Chori Chupe Aashnai``.

By the way how many Muslims have or can afford more than one wife.

Picked this up on the net :

Now to deal with the issue of Dronacharya and Eklavya. First, Eklavya held Dronacharya in very high esteem. So much so that when Dronacharya refused to teach Eklavya, the latter made a clay statue of the for- mer. This was sufficient for Eklavya to receive the inspiration that was needed to acquire the skills. Second, the episode indicates the strong guru-shisha (teacher-student) bond that existed then. When Dronacha- rya asked for his dhiksha, Eklavya gave it without hesitation, knowing fully well that he will not be able to use the skills that he acquired with such great ef- forts. The whole incident does put Dronacharya in bad light - but what is forgotten is that Eklavya comes out of it magnificently. It is this lesson that is obscured when we con-centrate on Dronacharya and not Eklavya.

Ekalavya :

The Mahabharata is most emphatically not a book about idealized role models. (The Ramayana is.)

I believe there are traditions that it is not to be kept in the home, and is meant to be read by people with mature, stable minds only.

Every character in the story is complete with good side and bad. Duryodhana is the ``villain`` of the piece, in modern parlance, but as he is dying, he makes a defiant speech to Krishna and the Pandavas, and the devas shower flowers on him from heaven, recognizing his indomitable spirit.

-Arun the I

Ref macgupta #: 388

[Harimau :

A question -- well, before the question, an assumption, that you believe you are not wasting your time on chowk. Now the question -- what do you think you are achieving ? Would your style of discourse have the effect you desire on someone like you ? If not why do you think it will work on everyone else ?]

I am not going to let these feeble-brained idiots get away with making false statements about the methods of Islam. Let them admit to their crimes. Let them proclaim loudly this is what Islam is all about. But so long as these guys continue to deny history, current events and reality, I intend to force-feed them the truth. Chowk editors have the right -- which they have exercised liberally every time I responded to Prof. Bilal Ahmad -- to censor my post but that only means that even they cannot handle the truth about Islamic thuggery. I know they prefer Sadhana, headshrinker (who goes off his rocker periodically and descends into depraved obscenity), MaheshG and a host of other apologists but I am going to proclaim the truth. Have these people refuted ONE SINGLE SOLITARY fact I have posted here? Of course not, because even Muslim historians have admitted to the atrocities of the thugs.

I don`t expect to convert anyone to my viewpoint but I intend to exercise my free-speech rights.

Is that a satisfactory answer or should I start posting that Islamic rule is the best thing that happened to India to satisfy you or Farzana?

Ref Studebaker #: 375

[There is no compulsion in religion,surah Al Kafiroun]

So what WAS the compulsion in destroying statues?

[Iam just as happy that he is a knowledgeable Hindu as i would be if he was a knowledgeable MUSLIM.]

Oh, he becomes KNOWLEDGEABLE because he said something nice about Muhammed? Did he mention Ayesha, the 9-year-old bride in that article?

[LOOKS LIKE THAT CASTIST PRIDE HAS NOT YET RUBBED OFF AFTER CLEANING YOUR OWN sh!t ,TOILET,cleaning your own dirt,laundry & garbage without some dalit doing for you .]

My pride is in not having left the religion of my ancestors either for money or for fear of death -- which is more than you can ever say.

[For why would you bring sh!t about how afghan added x number of muslims 100 yrs ago .]

So that you can`t try to bullshit your way through here by saying there were voluntary converts from Hinduism to Islam. No way!

Just like most of you were denying that the Muslim rulers destroyed every single shrine in Northern India. The True Face of Islam was clearly seen in Jan 2001 when the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, on the advice of mullahs, destroyed the Bamiyan Buddhas. So, you can get out of your denial phase and just say, ``Yes, that is what we did and that is what we will do if we get another chance.`` Have the b *lls to come out and say that instead of saying how wonderful all your sufis were and how you all left Hinduism because the Dalits were treated so badly. Then you were all Dalits in which case at least you should stop pretending you were Khatris, Central Asian princes, direct descendants of Muhammed or some other camel-riding freak from Arabia or Central Asia.

Eklavya # 387

``I sometimes wonder if Yudhisthar knew about what Dronacharya did to Eklavya. And if he did, how could he not have objected? Or, was he too deferential to his guru?``

Yudhisthar was no angel either. Remember how he was an accomplice in Krishna`s plot to have Dronacharya killed through false rumors that Ashwasthama (Dronacharya`s son) has died?

RSridhar:

``Perhaps some learned people in this forum may tell us as to why Islam has not accepted Sufism as a popular way of worship and why the more fundamental form is gaining so much popularity.``

I had quite a few thoughts on the above argument and wanted to share the following excerpts that I really like and may be pertinent, to a certain degree, to the question at hand.

- ``Sufism and Islam cannot be separated, in the same way that higher consciousness or awakening cannot be separated from Islam. Islam is not an historical phenomenon that began 1400 years ago. It is the timeless art of awakening by means of submission. Sufism is the heart of Islam. It is as ancient as the rise of human consciousness.``

- ``The brotherhood which was experienced by the Sufis was due mostly to their inner conditioning and state of their hearts, rather than to adherence to any particular theological doctrine or other ethnic or traditional bondages``

- ``Also, as with other spiritual movements and revivals,we find instances with other spiritual movements and revivals, we find instances of some Sufis taking things to extremes, and even distorting the multi-dimensions of Islam. Excess esotericism, or the rejection of the bounds of outer behaviour or the balanced prophetic way, are examples of this phenomenon, although they are the exceptions rather than the rule.``

- ``The key to Sufism is that of inner awakening , freedom and joy through recognition of outer restriction by choice and discrimination.``

- ``The reason that the majority of current studies on Sufism are of little use in a practical sense is because of the nature of inner awakening itself, which is the core of Sufism. Writing books about inner awakening is only really possible if one has experienced it, just as understanding such books is only really possible if one genuinely desires, or has already attained, such awakening. ``

- ``Those who claim that it is possible to have Sufism without Islam are only looking at one side of the story. Inner purity is generally attainable, but without its being contained outwardly, it will not result in any flourishing of a spiritual culture or an enlightened environment. Inner light and joy may be sufficient for an indiv. living in a cave, but once we start interactingwith others, we need to know where and what the bounds are for that social interaction to be able to take place, and this where we find that the laws of Islam are necessary and inseparable from Sufism.

``Whoever has the outerlaw without the inner reality has left the right way;
Whoever has the inner reality without the outerlaw is a heretic;
Whoever unites the two of them has realisation.``

Taken from an interesting book on ``The Elements of Sufism`` by Shaykh Fadhialla Haeri.

[continued...]

Harimau :

A question -- well, before the question, an assumption, that you believe you are not wasting your time on chowk. Now the question -- what do you think you are achieving ? Would your style of discourse have the effect you desire on someone like you ? If not why do you think it will work on everyone else ?

Just idle curiousity, really.

-Arun the Infidelator

arun # 380

When one reads Mahabharat (or like me, watches it on video), one doesn`t know whom to admire or whom not to. It is all so unsettling, so much of grey, so many shades of grey, like real life itself.

Dronacharya, that greatest of all Gurus of that time, was a man of many human weaknesses.

I sometimes wonder if Yudhisthar knew about what Dronacharya did to Eklavya. And if he did, how could he not have objected? Or, was he too deferential to his guru? Who knows? But one gets a very very bitter feeling about it all...From the grand perspective of warring nations, things may make sense, but at the human level?? ...Well, he does not have my respect at that level.

Professionally brilliant, personally flawed...There has been considerable and well-deserved controversy about naming the national award for sports coaches after him. The only saving grace is that Drona has been unable to wash off his crime against eklavya, and his name remains eternally sullied at least in this regard.

Ref dost-mittar #: 372

[farzana#368

And no, you were not harsh towards me at all. I learnt quite a bit from your post about the stringent requirements for being accepted into Islam, although I suspect that they have been more frequently breached than practised.]

Don`t let Farzana and others tell you that somehow there was an equivalent of a PhD qualifier examination, followed by a dissertation and an oral defense to get admitted to the Islamic fold.

All you have to do is to recite ``La ilahi illallah Muhammed rasulallah``, have yourself circumcised and eat a dish of beef and you are now a Muslim. In the case of Americans who convert because of their desire to marry a Muslim woman, they have already passed the cut-dick and beef-eating portions (the practicals, as you might call it) and just have to do the viva voce.

The beef-eating part was to ensure that the guys don`t become Hindus the day after the thugs leave town.

Don`t be a pathetic fool and fall for all the crap that these people are telling you. No matter what they say, the fact remains that all non-Hindus were thought to be a level below the Dalits so they never got any willing converts.

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krashid #381:

Khusrow:

...If you don’t mind?

Please read #174: in the brackets I did not mention your name or singled you out. But it is posts like this one that would qualify you to be eligible for mention there.

However, while there may not be hope for some of them.... there is hope for you yet!

I think on another board you quoted that Mahajirzadeh quote..(Pehlay Khuda phir Rasool: pehlay taaleem phir tafheem; pehlay insaan phir musalmaan.)

Everybody has a right to live in this world. Every race, and nation has their share of good and bad people. And you know not everyone can conform to the other’s believes and norms... this is Allah’s wide world... be a good insaan.... don`t be unduly bothered by the prevalent hate.

There is enough of it already. We are here for 60/70 years. Just be true to your ‘self’ and be a good insaan. And you will be better for it.

regards,

temporal

Studebaker #376

I don`t understand why you are so stoic retracting a rubbish remarks of a dirty idiot.

You are retracting dirty , Muslims with four wives.

These sons of gutter don`t know what is cleanliness. If any legacy is left for Muslims, it is the cleanliness.

Instead of four wives (how common for Muslims any way) every Bas-tard Hindu is boasting here of concubines as it is very pious thing to do.

How you can tolerate these rubbish people.

Thanks for Jinnah for making Pakistan.

I would prefer to die in hell rather than living with these sh-it of sh-ir. Smelly people spreading their smell everywhere.

India has been, is and will remain a gutter.

Hindus don`t particularly respect Dronacharya as a model for behavior. Where did you get that impression from ?

Dronacharya`s ego, his overpowering need for revenge (against Drupada), his winking at Kaurava misdeeds, etc. are clearly depicted in the Mahabharata. Drona was a very accomplished man, and a great man, but greatness does not imply goodness or being a role model.

-Arun Gupta

Krashid:

Bilkul Sumujh Naheen Ayee :-(

``Now read my post with all these things in mind.
(To add) patriotism in our country and democracy and secularism in India is similarly abused.
The only difference is with religion sword and Fatwa work together. With patriotism, democracy and secularism it is only sword without Fatwa.``


The context is very vague and ambiguous :-(
Also, no offense meant, I have no interest in India and its internal affairs! Yes, running into a newspaper with some news is a little different.

Take Care and please do not give me headaches with such mushkil bataen. I usually catch things pretty quick, but you are playing with words.

Can I request some clarity here?

Thanks.

Layman #366

The famous musician is/was Alladiya Khan from Miraj, Maharashtra. He said his ancestors were Saraswat Brahmins and were asked to convert to Islam by a king to release.

He also said that they follow many of the Hindu customs like performing Satyanarayan pooja , though not at their home but at friends places to avoid being confronted by fundamentalists. This story appeared in Times of India few years back.

Here comes another fatwa. Instaed of criticizing Yahoo for embracing pornographic sites, they termed it all bad. Another example of extremity of good-bad division. May Allah forgive me for keep using Yahoo for google search.



Saudi mufti calls for boycott of Yahoo!

RIYADH (AFP) - Saudi Arabia`s mufti recommended Muslims Friday to boycott Internet search engine Yahoo! for its role as a porn online middleman.

``I advise Muslims browsing the Internet to be wary of suspect sites that seek material interest at the expense of morals. We must boycott them,`` Sheikh Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah al-Sheikh told Asharq al-Aswsat newspaper.

Sheikh Abdul, who issued a fatwa last month banning the children`s game Pokemon, was commenting on Yahoo!`s decision to open an online pornography store in the cutthroat fight for economic survival in the struggling Internet marketplace.

``If boycotting (Yahoo!) means it will stop posting immoral material, Muslims must boycott it,`` leading Saudi cleric Sheikh Abdullah bin Abdul Rahman Bassam added, quoted by the paper.

The Los Angeles Times said Wednesday that Yahoo! had embraced the online porn industry, one of the few sectors of the Web that is actually profitable.

in the face of an economic slowdown that has hit the Dot.com sector hard.

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Ref Assad_K #: 363

[Did Muslims convert to Hinduism to save their lives as well?]

Nope. Hinduism doesn`t proselytize, doesn`t convert, doesn`t accept former Hindus who want to return to the fold.

As I said to Studebaker, we don`t want you no way.

Zahra#

Let me quote from your article. So that you can understand why my article is related.

(On Maulvis you wrote)

``The emphasis is on their knowledge and the role they play in disseminating that knowledge (if any)``

``What KRashid brought up was examples of hooliganism than any knowledge dissemination``

``In my observation, Jamaat symolized people who were conservative and well-mannered as compared to hooligans that KRashid identified in his example.``

``Also when you talk about the concept of abuse, I completely agree with you on that. But I will also add that it is not only religion that is being abused.``

``I think manipulation is far easier when you know the source and the end. Religion is not temper proof because it deals with people`s heart and will have a significant impact``

Now read my post with all these things in mind.

(To add) patriotism in our country and democracy and secularism in India is similarly abused.

The only difference is with religion sword and Fatwa work together.

With patriotism, democracy and secularism it is only sword without Fatwa.

Anamika :

Other folks have also commented to me that Rajiv Malhotra, in his Sulekha article, appears to be defensive about some facets of Hinduism, because they don`t square with Western notions.

I guess some of western academia is bound to rub off.

-Arun Gupta

Dear Harimau

``Stick to Java programming and leave history alone, about which you know nothing. If you went to an IIT, it is obvious that you spent the Plus Two years of your life cramming Physics and Math and had no time for history. The history taught in Indian high schools whitewash Muslim rule in India.``

You are right. I read some history through my own efforts after having passed 10+2. And incidentally I have also read John Keay`s book on Indian history that you love to quote.

``If you want to comment on Muslim rulers, you should first read some objective history books. The time may be right as quite a few programmers are losing their jobs in the US right now. So, put away Java and get a good book on Indian history. Then you will learn about the murderous ways of every single Muslim ruler.

Make sure you stop using mustard oil on your hair. It gets into your eyes and your eyes start smarting and you can`t read anymore.``

I have read somewhat on both Hindu and Muslim rulers of India. History always fascinated me, so I managed to glean some knowledge without being taught at IIT. Thank you very much for your kind advice. So nice of you. I never realised that mustard oil can create so many problems :-). BTW where do you get mustard oil these days in USA. I am longing for it.

P.S. Just for your info, I am not a Java programmer. Hell I am not even a programmer. And since I am not working(student still) so no fear of lay offs. BTW thanks again for a hearty laugh.

temporal (#174):

Read your poem. Soch mein pad gaye…May I pen something is response?

Jawaab-e-I Believe…:)

I too believe in decency

I too believe that belief

can strike the wall of hatred

But those walls are made of bricks

that will crumble anyway.

Why become a hermit

when you can be a sage?

Why not express anger

when you know you need not join the fray?

Those who swim in the mud

And let it not stick to them

Have a price to pay, my friend.

They may belong to no land

But what if they ever need a hand?

It isn’t the geographic boundaries that worry me

I fear for the soul that wanders away and dies.

Who does one salute then?

dost-mittar (#358):

In your response to Eklavya’s question about conversions in Islam being a well-accepted principle, you have stated, “It is, and it isn`t. Conversion in Islam is a one-way street. Renunciation of Islam is apostacy,for which the quranic punishment is death.” May I add something here? According to al-Baqara 221, for example, conversions require stringency: “If he enters into Islam and truly practices Islam, then it is allowable. However, he must be ``tested`` first to make sure that he performs his prayers, fasts and other acts of worship. Also, he must be learning the Quran, learning the laws of Islam, abandoning shirk, avoiding alcohol and all other forbidden acts. He should also change his religion on his passport and identification papers. One should wait for some time after he embraces Islam to make sure that he is truly a Muslim …”

[“Many hindus in Lahore and other places became muslims at the time of partition to save their lives. The attitudes of their children today towards India or hindus is no different than those of other Pakistani muslims.”]

There are very many Muslim communities in India that converted en masse to Islam but this was long before Partition – I am talking about the Bohras, Ismailis, Khojas. And these incidentally are the “broad-minded” spectrum of Islam, concentrating on regular education and they also happen to be relatively wealthy. Which clearly points to the fact that money and education are linked.

Btw, Dronacharya is a he, an archer and sage. And Eklavya, from the ‘Mahabharata’, was his ardent admirer. However, being a tribal, he was not accepted as a pupil, so he started practising before the statue of the sage. He became extremely good, and although Dronacharya admired him for it, he asked him to make a supreme sacrifice as ‘guru-dakshina’ – his right thumb, which was his most prized asset, simply because a lower caste man could not fight Arjuna. This example is often cited as evidence of the cleavage that exists between high castes and low castes. I assume that many concepts of nationalism and jurisprudence too have found their genesis in myths.

dost-mittar (#224):

Apologies for the delayed response to my post (#150). You did not seem satisfied with my explanation about being a “soft-Islamist”. The only way in which I can explain it is this: Jinnah who most people will agree was hardly a Muslim by any stretch of imagination had repeatedly talked about a unified India and at no point did he express any desire to head the government. Then what happened? He was made to ‘belong’, to align with the Muslim League, which he duly and sensibly distanced himself from at a later stage, but it was too late. Well, he had the luxury of carving out a country, I don’t.

[“I have found that you are generally more sympathetic to the hard-core Islamists than the moderate muslims and hindus on the Chowk… Your experiences showed you that the

secularism of most of the hindus was only skin deep and they were actually quite prejudiced. I don`t deny an element of truth in your statement. Many hindus say the same thing about Muslims; remember what Sardar Patel said -the only nationalist muslim in

India was Jawahar Lal Nehru.”]

I think Sardar Patel got it wrong; he was indeed communal. As regards my sympathies, I did not think I was sympathetic to anyone. If you too are implying a few posts in favour of Urstruly/Ali, then I think this is precisely what I am fighting against – that I must take up pet positions only because that is the ‘right’ thing to do. I happen to be responding to specific subjects, and my view is often a reaction, and yes, sometime based on personal experience. Why not? I am afraid I must also say that some of these moderates you speak about, from both sides, are the ones who needle the hard-core elements. The fact is that more moderates have questioned my patriotism and “Hindu-bashing”; only they do it with more finesse and with intellectual arguments. Killing me softly…:)

I have said that I am caught between this being and becoming business, and only I can sort it out. I have no intention of polarizing any strata of society; they do the job admirably by themselves.

Am I a bit clearer now? I had no intention of sounding harsh at all, but I suppose I did. It is the issue, and not you, okay?

Regards,

Farzana

#343 macgupta

Mr. Malhotra appears to want to highlight some trunks of the banyan to the detriment of others. Mr. Malhotra also talks of high and low Hinduism, explicitly favoring the high in favor of the low. Sacrificing goats and chickens is a well-entrenched village custom in India. I know of even some brahmins (and staunch vegetarians) who have had animals sacrificed on their behalf to mollify some village deity or the other. If such practices are on the fringe, then more than half the ``hindus`` are outside the pale of Hinduism. What happens when the banyan tree people encounter palm tree people is that the banyan tree people start to talk of the banyan tree as if it is a collection of palm trees, perhaps because they think that is the only way their interlocutors will understand them, that they are not martians or something.

I also noticed that Mr. Malhotra was using monism and monotheism interchangeably. Monism is an exclusive Hindu/Buddhist concept and doesn`t even require a dei as monoTHEISM does.

Anyway, there you have it.

I remember reading about a famous Muslim Hindustani music exponent whose ancestor was a Hindu Brahmin musician serving in the court of some king. I don`t recall the names, but the story goes that when the king was imprisoned by the Mughal ruler, the musician went to Delhi to plead for his king`s release. The ruler agreed but the price was that the musician should convert to Islam. The musician did so and the king was released. When the musician tried to later `undo` his conversion and reconvert, other Brahmins refused to accept him, so he remained a Muslim.

This only highlights how difficult (or impossible) it was for someone to `reconvert` to Hinduism after they had converted to Islam (whether by force or whatever reason).

Overall I am very pleased with the way discussion took place on this thread. The credit goes to all who contributed and particularly to sac, Arun Gupta, Bilal Ahmad and Pankaj for keeping the discussion on track.

I made my intent very clear in this article and subsequent replies. Since very few have the luxury of going through the whole plethora of religious literature created over centuries, it is essential to focus on the salient fatures, core beliefs and rituals in most condensed, abstract and benign with respect to time, energy and beliefs of others. Decreasing the emphasis on organized, institutionalized and clergy are few helpful steps in this direction. The involvement of state certainly does not help.

I am also convinced about present being better than the past and hoping that future will be better than the present for all south-asians. It will not happen without the positive contributions from all. Diasporic south asian communities could be a powerful catalyst in this regard by setting examples. What Punjabi and Bengali diasporic brigades are doing so successfully in US, Canada and Britain should be an eye-opener for all south-asians. The 2-2 1/2 million south asians in USA alone can besome a model for understanding, mutual respect, supporting each other, forming broad-based organizations transcending the religious, ethnic and political divisions. South Asian music, movies, dramas and literature have already transcended these boundaries. Let us extend it to other aspects of life also. Coming together on a single platform will help all south-asians in the US and effect positively on our motherlands. Somebody should write an article about ``Diasporic Influence`` on chowk.

Sameer re:353

I sometimes find myself amused with the ‘political correctness’ now displayed by history in the US. The settlers are still brave pioneers on a new frontier, but that is combined with explotation, massacre and germ warfare. Where are the heroes? Sometimes it feels like it has gone too far.

Nontheless… its so much better than our heads-in-the-sand attitude. Where Bangladesh is considered the result purely of Banya treachery. While we have had innumerable pieces and books in English about the true history of the East Pakistan crisis and Bangladesh, how much analysis has there been in Urdu and the regional languages, which is what the majority of the population reads? Or in other mass-media, like the radio or tv? A few episodes of Nishan-e-Haider don’t exactly count (especially since one was on Rashid Minhas!).

Can two opposing viewpoints come to an agreement without the military defeat of the other, though? Using Chowk as a microcosm – we have here educated people, many of whom are settled in the US, mostly professionals and well-educated, but how long does it take us to start making comments on others’ sexual habits and abusing religion? The task would be.. difficult.

Dost-mittar, Eklavya

Relevant posts, and things to chew on, definitely.

Did Muslims convert to Hinduism to save their lives as well?

Ref Pankaj #: 355

[For example Hindus tend to generalise the barbaric acts of Ghazanvis/Aurangzeb to all the Muslim rulers.]

Stick to Java programming and leave history alone, about which you know nothing. If you went to an IIT, it is obvious that you spent the Plus Two years of your life cramming Physics and Math and had no time for history. The history taught in Indian high schools whitewash Muslim rule in India.

If you want to comment on Muslim rulers, you should first read some objective history books. The time may be right as quite a few programmers are losing their jobs in the US right now. So, put away Java and get a good book on Indian history. Then you will learn about the murderous ways of every single Muslim ruler.

Make sure you stop using mustard oil on your hair. It gets into your eyes and your eyes start smarting and you can`t read anymore.

RSaxena,

As someone wrote, the Pakistani diplomat with high explosives is following yet another version of the TNT theory :-)

-Arun the Infidelator

RJanjua:

I think your thanks should be directed to Mr.Kush as he was the one who initiated the debate on Munshi Fazal and stuff. I was just correcting myself for something that I have been doing unintentionally.

Take Care!

Krashid:

No we are not! Your post gives a different message.

:-)!

Re: Zahra

Thank you for your corrections and comments. I am quite familiar with the munshi fazil, etc., heirarchy though :-).

Re: F_K

Browsing through the replies, came across Koh-i-Nidaa. Very nice!

Zahra #354

I think we are.:-)

Sameer #353

What you say is very accurate. If we look back at the history, we will find long anarchic periods followed by ephemeral periods of tranquility. Infact the example of Afganistan you gave seems appropriate in describing the real situation that might have existed in the past. You are also correct that the entirely different versions of history taught in our countries is a major cause of the varied perceptions. These so much varied perceptions which come closer to 0 and 1 give rise to ``totalist`` tendencies in which good and bad become entirely separable and easily identifiable. The reality lies in the gray area between these far separated poles. This idealistic labelling of our ancestors into good and bad gives rise to antagonistic ideologies which get generalised and reinforced by the rival groups. For example Hindus tend to generalise the barbaric acts of Ghazanvis/Aurangzeb to all the Muslim rulers. When he sees some muslims considering these rulers as their hero, his dislike gets cemented into a permanent hatred. They forget that a lot of Hindu rulers too were no saints and might have caused a section of population a lot of sufferings during their conquests. In short, all this boils down to distancing oneself from the reality by romanticising the existence of an essential pure good and pure bad concepts. The reality is far more complicated . This oversimplification has caused mankind a lot of trauma.

Sincerely

KRashid:

I do not think that we are on the same page. Probably, you should revisit my post :-)

Take Care!

Assad_K: You gave couple of good examples, Americans since the civil war and Germany-France relationship, in response to one of my carefully worked out post about justification for hatred. Please understand, I did not suggest to hate if a people were harmed by the other in distant history, recent history or likely to harm in the future. Quite the contrary, I agree with you that distant past should not be as decisive as the future, of people and the State.

You examples has given me an entry to discuss something else. It is necessary, to forgive and forget history, to agree upon a single set of facts abouts history. This is what mutual respect and understanding is about. Most Americans agree about the causes and casulaty figures on both sides of civil war and Germany-France also agree about the excesses of Hitler and the damage it caused to France and french people. Had Germany insisted on making a hero out of Hitler and justified his actions for whatever reason, Germany-France relationship would have been different (this is just an example, otherwise I understand the influence of German surrender and later influence of ECU). Now compare this with the take on history by Indians-Pakistanis. Each side believe in a very different interpretation of history. They disagree about the casualty figures in Kashmir and Bangladesh. Heroes of one side are the mauraders for others. None of this help. They must come up with certain agreeable interpretations of the history of ISlamic empires. It appears insurmontable task, though I think it is not. Once we look at history from peoples perspective and not the ruling classes or religion, it is abundantly clear that we were getting raw deal throughout this period. All our heroes or their mauraders were interested in establishing, preserving and expanding their empires at all costs. Although there is much less data available about the plight of people but it is not difficult to imagine a continuous anarchy, wars with fortunes of each group changing rapidly. Actually a similar current model exists just next door. What Afghanistan has been through last 20 years, we have been through such upheavals more often than quite period. There was never a peaceful continuous period lasting for more than two generations, except for the last 100 years of British rule. The people must have been through the same or worse situations, Afghans are going through now. Will Afghan be exceptionally proud of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, Mullah Omar and Ahmad Shah Masood 500 years down the road as we are for similar warlords of past 500 years in sub-continent? It is even funniar if you consider the fact that people most suffered from the invasions of Ghaznavi and Abdali were actually the forefathers of Pakistanis. These guys did not invade Bengal or Tamil Nadu. Distantacing from the history of invaders is absolutely essential towards any mutual understanding.

Great leaders, even involved in invasions, do great job at least for their own people. History is full of such examples. And what did our heroes did, not for us but for the ethnic group they belonged to. Ghazni is one small poor town, even worse than any small town in Pakistan. Pathans and other turkish people related to our heroes are the poorest in Pakistan.

The existance of Pakistan is not the result of their actions. That credit goes to Sir Syed Ahmad Khan, education and Jinnah and acceptance of partition by Congress.

Funny, isn`t it? People living in a situation akin to present day Afghan people and few hundred years later looking back at it with pride and even shedding tears for the substitution of persianized titles of Allamas, Maulvis, Adeebs, Fazils, Munshi Fazils, Nazims, Qazis and Mohtasibs with English ones. Oh! Bring back those good old days when people often slept hungry, their grains looted every year, rulers never concerned about people and Munshi fazils...

Zahra #342

I will be very dishonest, if I start blaming a person because he/ she belongs to a group.

It is the ideas which need to be understood.

Prophet PBUH came for supermacy of One God and to fight ideas which contradict with this. For example Quran is replete with instances of how jews changed their books for small worldly benefit. If some Muslim takes these Ayah to bash jew, it will be great dishonesty. These Ayah tells us not to change Ayah or selectively use Ayah for small wordly benefit.

If you have been in Pakistan in 1988 election. You will remember that Imam of Badshahi mosque gave a Fatwa that whoever votes for people`s party will not go to heaven.

People have a lot of belief in religious figures and religious personalities. They might not believe that F=m.a is correct, but they believe that what these religious figures are saying is true. And is the true intent of Allah.

What do you think of a person who fully aware of this people`s behaviour, use religion to benefit himself or his party.

According to Quran, it will fall in the same category for which jews are maligned.

You have raised an important point of different aspects of knowledge including Maulvi Fazil. I also believe in that. But the problem starts when these MAULVIS of yours start pretending that only they have the knowledge and rest of the knowledge is either useless or false. In this regards one of the greatest scholars of Saudi Arabia, Ibn-e-Baaz donot believe that man has gone to moon and it is a farce created by West.

The problem will not arise if he said that or believed that. The problem arises that this belief is not only accepted by common man because of the sanctity of Mullahs or Maulvis. But he has the arsenal of Fatwa to justify this.

So if it was a simple matter of democratic principles which your post suggest, I would whole heartedly take your argument.

But it has more than that. Mullahs and Maulvis, are not accountable by God for their deeds in this world. Or in other words, there is no process of accountability for them, nor is there any Wahi coming to people to tell them what is right and what is wrong. Isn`t it necessary that people instead of following the Fatwas blindly, should held Maulvis accountable for their words and deeds. Or is it un-Islamic to suggest this.

Few interesting Fatwa`s in past are.

1- Printing of Koran in printing press is Haram.

2- Since Napolean is fighting British in Egypt. And since British are Christians. So occupation of Egypt by Napolean is Islamic.

Do you smile on the convoluted logic of Fatwa. And how people are manipulated.

Regards.

Aamair #322

After seeing CONVERSION and behaving as champions of Islam by Imaran Khan, Nawaz Sharif, Babra Sharif and Musarrat Nazir.

Do you have any doubt regarding the truthfull ness of this verse.

The time has changed now and every Conversion is speaking the politically correct language, so as to get the promised lands and pearls and jewels even in this world (apart from hereafter) once our Musharraf need them to strengthen his chair.

And before I forget to send ``Tabarra`` on IJT and Jamat-e-Islami brass. They are to a certain extent also fit the category.

You guys are incredible, trying to smuggle terrorism to Nepal too now.

``KATHMANDU, April 12 (AFP) -

Nepal police late Thursday detained a Pakistani diplomat and his wife with 16 kilogrammes (35 pounds) of powerful RDX explosives in Kathmandu, a highly placed home ministry source said.

The source, who requested anonymity, said Pakistani embassy first secretary, Mohammad Arshad Cheema and his wife were detained and their statements were being recorded.

Earlier, the home ministry source said 25 kilogrammes (55 pounds) of RDX had been found.

The source said Cheema could be declared persona non-grata but would be held here until the investigation was completed and then expelled.

But Cheema was allegedly trying to leave Kathmandu Friday, sources said.``

Mr. Kush:

I really liked your way of expressing your disgust in the following :-) Beautiful!

``The ``modern`` kind felt threatened and therefore a campaign was orchestrated to vilify them enmasse.``

I have heard about the Munshi Fazal and other stages from my Abu. Thanks for bringing back the memory in your informative post! You reminded me of the informative elders. It`s just like the ``old phrases`` that were very commonly used in the olden days. The one I really like is a very authentic Punjabi Quote ``Wah Pae` Janiyae`- Tae` Raah Pae` Janiyae`!`` In fact, I have a lot of my friends who simply or I should say blindly believe in this. I will leave you to figure out the meaning, if I have quoted it right :-)!

I quoted the exact meanings from the dictionary for the three words M-M-M. In real life or in current day or age[whatever is more appropriate] you do not find people exactly fitting in those roles or abiding by them, therefore there is concern and uproar. Also, that`s one of the main reasons that people react so badly when they see the abuse of religion around them. There is some psyche behind it. It`s not reaction for the heck of it or rebellious attitude for the sake of it. If someone sees hypocritical values being promoted causing inner turmoil than peace then obviously the person is likely to get out of it, provided he or she has a living conscience and hates to be driven. Why should they stay in it? On the other hand, if they do not want to comply or abide by certain restrictions or conditions that is their personal choice and is not/cannot be dictated by external influences. Just a thought!

Take Care.



Correction:

My previous post should read:

Yes, there ``were`` individual eccentricities and students would make fun of certain things, but that`s not the point. In my department majority had a very well educated outlook than the ``usual`` concept we get from Jamaat`s name.

F_K:

This is off the topic here but how do you explain Irani-Hindi Bhai Bhai and the Iranians getting upset with Pakistan? Shouldn`t fellow Muslims be siding with Pakistan against the stinking kaffirs? OR do you subscribe to the belief that Shias are no better than idolaters? That would explain their behavior, wouldn`t it?

I apologize to the other interactors for going off on a tangent.

Regards to all.

Ref Studebaker #: 335

[Blessed that i am,my product is so good that that i dont have to spoil it by my poor salesmanship skill .It sells BY itself.Your co religionist ,have done better job than ever we could have done .For that ,THANK YOU Hindu & Hindusthan

MOHAMMAD THE PROPHET

By Prof. K. S. Ramakrishna Rao, Head of the department of Philosophy, Government college for Women, University of Mysore, Mandya-571401 (Karnatika).

Re-printed from ``Islam and Modern age``,

Blah, Blah, Blah....]

So, has Prof. Ramakrishna Rao turned in his dhoti and shirt for a djellaba, gotten himself circumcised, recited the Kalima in front of your supposedly non-existent priesthood and re-named himself Abdullah?

I don`t think so.

As for the crap about your product selling itself, the most recent time it was sold was in Nuristan when the Afghan Amir sent in his troops and converted the Nuristanis on pain of death. This happened just over 100 years ago and it is still fresh in the memory of those folks.

Your problem is that your forefathers were converted by the sword, forced to eat beef as the first ceremony of embracing Islam so that the Hindus will never take you back into their fold, and having to live with your inferiority complex with respect to the invaders who still treated you like sh *t. You know something? Nobody wants you; not the Hindus, not the Arabs, nobody no way.

Ref Studebaker #: 334

[Accepting ``intolerence`` does NOT mean dying submissively .

It can only be a communalist,islamophobic,Hindutva like you who can see any thing in common between them to LUMP them to gether.]

Okay. Let us then take Babri Masjid. Why can`t you take THAT submissively? Why is it that every second post from a blathering idiot mentions Babri Masjid? Are these guys then not good Muslims because ``they are not accepting of intolerance``?

[As for my salesman skill]

It is clear you continue to peddle the crap that everything good orginated in 7th century Arabia and life is perfect if you drink filthy water, don`t wash, keep your 4 women in burqas and eat dates all the time. But I don`t see you moving to that Heaven on Earth Al-Arabia as-Saudi.

Anamika, #183 :

Thanks to Rajiv Malhotra on sulekha.com, I have an almost perfect metaphor for you.

The person who is familiar with only the palm tree would perhaps find it difficult to comprehend the banyan tree with its multiple trunks and roots.

One trunk defines a tree, and there is no such tree as Hinduism, according to the confused, it was never one tree, and so on.

Hindus have no one trunk, and no Hindu movement that I am aware of, with the exception of the Arya Samaj, ever tries to convert Hinduism into a version of the palm tree.

-Arun Gupta

RJanjua and KRashid:

I think both of you have alluded to a similar topic, therefore I will write one post.

I have been using the word Maulvi and Maulana interchangeably and was forced to pick up the Feroz-ul-Lughaa`t[New Edition] to validate the meaning of both words. They are not the same and should not be used interchangeably. So, I would correct myself and would like to add to your knowledge if you weren`t aware of the difference already :-)!

-Maulvi is
i)Alam`ae`Deen,
ii)Moa`llum or Mo`ddarus.

-Maulana is an honorary rank given to the learned ones (Ule`maa).

-Mullah is the one who leads the prayers in the mosque and teaches the kids. I always thought people from certain regions used this word as it wasn`t commonly heard in my surroundings.

Probably, you can use Maulvi and Mullah interchangeably, but not the word Maulana. At least I won`t feel comfortable with that. None of definitions focused on their outlook or physique or beard, in particular. The emphasis is on their knowledge and the role they play in disseminating that knowledge (if any).

Now different people have different ways of measuring knowledge and a person`s knowledge ability. Some will like to sit with a Yogi and learn about the realms of life, some will love to talk to a punchayat leader and get his wisdom on certain matters, some will go to a shrine and have a soul to soul conversation and get peace, some will meditate and come to a level of awareness where all their senses are completely synched up, and some will listen to a PhD to gather more information. Depends on our preference.

My note is not at all to support the causes of Maulvis/Maulanas/Mullahs. What KRashid brought up was examples of hooliganism than any knowledge dissemination. Simple. The examples I have quoted were of my professors in the university who were far far away from stooping to that level. They were highly qualified and sane individuals. Yes, there are individual eccentricities and students would make fun of certain things, but that`s not the point. In my department majority had a very well educated outlook than the unusual concept we get from Jamaat`s name. There was no question to bring religion in the curriculum and it should not be brought up in any way or shape. But when you talk to people, you can gather their perspectives, approach as well as their outlook. In my observation, Jamaat symbolized people who were a conservative and well mannered as compared to the hooligans that KRashid identified in his example. Also, I think our cities have a very different culture as well and that also imparts a lot to the culture of the educational institutes. Krashid, I think you mentioned that you were from Dow. I had a very close friend from Sindh, who was with me during my FSc. years at Kinnaird and would tell me about the lawlessness on their campus. It was simply deplorable. I am talking about early 90s. (92-93).

Also, when you talk about the concept of abuse, I completely agree with you on that. But I will also add that it`s not only religion that is being abused. It`s everything that adds to the institute of life that should be preserved than being abused. Religion is just one thing. For the highly enlightened ones, it should be everything but the ones who are a little less enlightened they feel that it cannot be everything and it should be separate from other segments of life.
I think manipulation is far easier when you know the source and the end. Religion is not tamperproof because it deals with people`s heart and will have a significant impact. Remember the concept of ``intent`` is related to human ``heart`` than to human ``mind.``


RJanjua: Mutual Respect does not come in a day or two. It`s a process. People evolve with time and I think they learn a lot by being in diverse surroundings or growing up in diverse environment. Still I cannot/will not say that for sure as I have come across quite a few who despite growing up in diverse surroundings have no sense.

Also, I read you commenting on Asif Naqshbandi`s views. I will appreciate if you directly take them with him than bringing them in a conversation with me. I understand that it was an example. Somehow I find it pretty irrelevant in this discussion and am not familiar with his views at all.

In light of the definitions that I have provided early on, I will never think of a Tableeghi to be the one who gives azaan in the mosque. But then it may be the semantics or the way we see people. The moa`zzans are not taught the basics of manners necessarily. Are they? I am completely ignorant on this subject. My exposure to such branches and things was in the university as an observer than being involved with any group. Sadly, many students who would come from far off places, small towns and not very well-educated backgrounds became excellent candidates for these parties` activities. In someway, I think they were misused. Coming to a professional school after F.Sc., when one is at a tender age of 16 or 17, one won`t know about all these gimmicks and political agendas that different parties had. Some of them had secured excellent positions in their respective board of education, but after coming to the university they got into this ``leadery thing`` and ended up wasting the precious years of their lives. I am so glad that we do not have any of these groups and parties now on our campus. Thanks to the current VC who is an ex-army man!

Aside from my sweet childhood memories of seeing my uncles in uniform (army, air force, civil services), I simply like the concept of discipline in these categories. Yes, that can go to extremes as well, but still you are not a shattered one with a tattered outlook. I guess as I myself was raised in a disciplined school of thoughts, I had real hard time accepting people wasting their time in the silly ``party-baazi and naa`raa baazi`` during my university years.

RJanjua:

On your following comment, I cannot resist saying what I am about to say :-)

``p.s. Are you sure they never looked at your wrists.``

As a 17-18 year old, I was too busy analyzing why their ankles were so exposed despite such a conservative outlook, therefore did not notice.
:-)

PS: On a serious note: I was far more worried about gathering the ins-and-outs of all the chain reactions, the elements, the proper formulae, and the multi-layered structures than thinking about wrists and ankles in that class.

Take Care!



Rjanjua:

Rind cannot be explained with the ``sinner concept`` only. You are simplifying your answer. It’s someone who wears two faces. The external self is bad, whereas the internal one is good. The best example that is usually given in the dictionaries is of ``alcoholic.`` In other words, the person may indulge in bad practices, but has a good heart and is a nice person otherwise. By saying sinner, you’ve synthesized your point, but have overlooked the factor of human goodness. Just a point!


Post 237 [Correction]
It should read:
Whether you admit it or not, you “may be” knee-deep in them as well.

Post 257 had some incoherent thoughts that were not edited. Sorry for that.

ylh, latif chappu :

Mahatma Gandhi cannot confer ``moral superiority`` on anyone any more than the Prophet Muhammad can.

It is not whom you follow or what group you belong to, or what you profess that weighs in the scales of morality; what counts is your actual effort.

This ``moral superiority`` thing is also a borderline issue.

-Arun Gupta

Just when Sameer posted his article, I was reading a book of popular fiction, where the following dialog takes place. The conversation is between a rabbi R, an Jewish agnostic S, and another person, B.

The dialog has very much to do with borderline issues. Contrary to the agnostic, Moses may have been divinely inspired; but the point remains nevertheless.

S [the agnostic] : In general, I`m inclined to observe the Mosiac laws because they`re sensible and modern.

B: Modern ?

S : Sure. Moses established rules by which the individual could order his life and by which a humane society can be maintained, everything from rules of personal cleanliness to proper treatment of the lower animals. There were very monder rules for women; incompatibility was grounds for a divorce --

R : And the Ketubah was a prenuptial agreement.

S : Right. And he establishes a very modern system of labor relations which gave the laborer the right to organize, and fixed his rate of pay so that the employer could not take advantage of his temporary need. And don`t forget that the Sabbath gave hime a week of rest every week.

There were laws that gave aid and succor to the poor, and even laws governing the treatment of the lower animals, because he was aware of the relationship of all living things.

He even had a sense of ecology, of the needs of the land itself, and ordered that it should not be planted every seventh year, but be permitted to lie fallow to renew itself.

Some of these laws indicate a fastidiousness of mind and spirit, like the law forbidding the cooking of the flesh of the calf in the milk of its mother, which has led to our elaborate separation of meat and dairy foods and dishes. When you stop to think about it, it`s a horrible thing to do.

I suppose our special attitude toward the pigs is due to the same fastidious sense, since the pig is the only domestic animal that serves no purpose except to be eaten. To raise an animal, to feed it so that it will grow big and fat just so you can eat it - ugh !

B : But doesn`t that show it must have been the work of God rather than the work of mere man ?

S : Ah, now that was where Moses showed his genius. He know that even if he could maintain the observance of these laws during the period when he was all-powerful, they would tend to be disregarded when he became old and weak, and even more when he died.

So, instead of offering them as his own, he invented God, and said they were ordained by God, and he insisted that his was the only God, so that there could be no rival God that could be appealed to for a different opinion. That was where he showed his true superiority to all other law-givers, like Hammurabi or Solon or Lycurgus.

Of course, he could not run the show single-handed, even in his prime. So he took the advice of his father-in-law, Jethro, and appointed a number of judges who later were the rabbis to help him run things. It was necessary, of course, but also unfortunate.

B : Why unfortunate ?

S: Because it created a bureaucracy. Bureaucrats always multiply rules and regulations. And what develops is a pedantic meticulousness.

That`s how the business of two sets of dishes, one dairy, one meat, came about. An effort to avoid the most remote possibility of mixing the milk of the cow with the meat of the calf. Then this was extended to two sinks to wash the two kinds of dishes in, and the two dishcloths to wipe them with. Some even have two refrigerators in which to store the two kinds of food, and I have even heard, although it`s probably apocryphal, of someone who went in for two sets of false teeth. You see, it`s usually the extremists who set the pattern.

Or consider the Sabbath. We are told to rest on the Sabbath, and this means we may not work. So then the question arises, what constitutes work ?

And it was decided that the different kinds of work that were involved and described in the construction of the tabernacle were work and would be taboo on the Sabbath.

Making a fire was obviously one of these. It was necessary for the smelting of ores for metal, and then for working the metal for the various vessels that were required. And I suppose in those days building a fire was work, and even though today all that`s required is to strike a match, lighting a cigarette is regarded as work, which is why Orthodox Jews can`t smoke on the Sabbath.

Well, fire is fire, and a little one is just as much fire as a big one. But with the advent of electricity, the bureaucracy decided that an electric spark was also fire, and what`s more, that every time you turn on an electric appliance of any kind, you create a spark.

So the poor devil who walks up ten flights of stairs to reach his apartment is not doing any work, but his nonobservant neighbor who uses the elevator is, because he had to push a button and thereby made an electric contact. And that first one sits in the darkness rather than push a button that wil turn on the electric light. If his daughter, say, is in the hospital, he can`t call her on the phone to ask how she is because it is electrical and presumably makes a spark. And of course he can`t go to see her unless the hospital is within walking distance.



-Arun Gupta

Bilal Sahib,

I am not sure if I can give you a satisfactory answer, since I don`t agree with you on certain things. We have gone through this before, I`ll try to clarify my position again.

``My biggest difficulty with the Pakistani military is regarding the fact that it imposes heavy opportunity costs on the nation on the whole. This is not to deny that Pakistani military has played a positive role in some aspects, and in some parts, of Pakistan.``

You have a valid point here. And I agree, our military budget is excessive and does comprimise other important needs of the country, but in my opinion its necessary. We face a hostile neighbour and we should not compromise our defence. And like I said before you can`t blame the economic problems on defense alone-there are many other factors. What about Nepal and Bangladesh. Why have`nt they become a Sweden or a Norway. They don`t spend as much as we do on defence.

``I support General Musharraf’s seven point agenda, though his recent statement regarding making Pakistan an ideal Islamic and modern state has really perplexed me. I think, General Musharraf has wasted a golden opportunity to put Pakistan on a new, visionary path.``

General Musharraf is no revolutionary. That became apparent after he backed down quite a few times (e.g., Blasphemy law episode). This man seems more cautious to me than elected officials usually are(exculding those from Pakistan)-which is good. There are too many problems in Pakistan. They can`t disappear overnite. Except for letting Nawaz Sahrif go (a major disapointment), I don`t think he has committed any blunder. He is moving too slow, but in a very short period of time he has also accomplished quite a few things. This Islamic and modern state thing is beyond me also. Need to watch some more. But probably just rhetoric to appease the mullahs (one can argue whether that`s right or wrong).

``I must make another important qualification. I do not support Military coups as well as the military’s desire to overtly or covertly dominate the social relations of state, economy, or civil society.``

Neither do I. But there was no alternative at that time. I think Musharraf should quickly finish what he came to do and get the troops back in barracks before the rot sets in the Army again.

``I view the whole idea of the National Security Council with great concern. In my view, it is an indirect way to keep the politicians under the thumb of the military (a military of a society that is intensely corrupt, inegalitarian, and divided on the basis of class, ethnicity, religious sects, places, etc.).``

Bilal Sahib, I don`t see anything wrong with the NSC. Even in the U.S., a four-star general sits in the NSC. Yes, in the ideal situation the majority of such an institution would be civilian. But Pakistan is far from ideal. Once the Army hands over power to the next civilian govt. (whenever that might be), it would be necessary to make that transition gradualy. Here, I`ll have to admit my bias to you (which I am sure you are aware of)- I simply don`t trust our politicians to make proper decisions. Not only they are corrupt but also inept and I`ll personaly be more comfortable with good general staff officers sitting in that council.



``In my view, the direct and indirect control of politics by the military has created difficulties for Pakistan’s ability to figure out creative political and diplomatic ways to reduce her defense expenditure without jeopardizing her status as a safe and secure state in the comity of nation.``

I think you are over-simplifying the problem here. Whereas there is no doubt that various coups have severly damaged the democratic institutions to establish themselves, I don`t think miltary can be blamed for our position w.r.t other nations in the region.

We do face some tough problems (internal and external), but the thing working in our favor these days, is this soul-searching and self-evaluation. Pakistanis realize their predicament and are working to clean up the mess. I don`t see it happening overnight. That does`nt bother me as long as we stay on the right track. One thing that can make us stay the course is continous debate. All sides must be heard and all options carefuly evaluated.



``Here we need to understand the culture of our so-called marshal races. Are we, as a country/nation, inadvertently doing some dirty job for other nations/countries at the cost of our national health? In other words, are other countries/nations, by providing peanuts and by knowing our internal and external difficulties, using us to their advantages?``

I don`t buy the martial race theory. You are refering to the Afghan war here. That era is hopefully over. We do neglect our culture though. We really need to educate ourselves on this and re-discover our heritage. A glorious history of more than 5000 years has been truncated to start at 712 A.D. I personaly have just started on this quest and there`s lot of ground to cover.

Regards.

re: dost-mittar 326

dm, you mentioned something that I have not been able to understand. You stated that the shuddhi movement, tiny though it was, succeeded in alienating the broder muslim community. Why should that have been the case? I mean, isn`t conversion a well-accepted principle in Islam? Or, could it be that the shuddhi movement has been made an excuse to hide an attitude of alienation that already existed? Any ideas?

Besides, we must remember that unlike the soviet union, muslims ruled over much of India for about a thousand years. While people who were forced to convert to another religion could have hidden their true religion for a few generations, there is no way they could have done it for long if parents could not fully control the doctrination of young minds. So Hindu parents could easily have seen their children turning into fundamentalist muslims if these children were forced into islamic social and educational indoctrination. Socially and psychologically, these children were much more likely to identify with the `conquerer` than with the `conquered` ethos. That explains why, over time, families could have invented lineages relating them to far off places.

``Poets will form the majority in `jahanam```

If that happens, I hope they will include me in the minority there.

YLH various posts ,

I`m desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze

pilots wore helmets. I get the feeling you might know.

Faruk

Latif Chappu,

So Indians can go on claiming Moral superiority and the present this Gandhi like Christ like image, but when Pakistanis try to present their point of view, they are ridiculed like you are ridiculing me.

What do you want me to do? Say that India is right in taking Kashmir? I dont think that I will be doing Justice to the people of Kashmir if I make such a stupid statement.

I am convinced that I am right when I say that Kashmiris should be allowed to practise their right to self determination and that this issue is central to Pakistan and India`s future.

As for the rest ... the Jinnah Gandhi zero sum game, Partition etc... You have your perspectives and I have mine, and both have their own merits, but to me the merits of my perspective are more appealing to me, hence it is my perspective.

The good vs evil is a game that India imposes on us, we dont wish to indulge in such controversy.

The Indian Consul General who spoke at the Yale conference was condemned by objective Indians. Even your diplomats are riff raff.

Pakistani Diplomat made no bones about the fact that Pakistan was under military dictatorship, he did not try to attain higher moral ground, he merely stated his Govt`s Position. The Indian Diplomat went into the one sided History of Partition, called Pakistanis everything but dogs..

You are indeed nothing more than a chappu, and your state, well sadly it is nothing more than a Hindu Fascist Hegemonic state posing to be a secular democracy and this is my perspective. Have the decency to accept it as such, after all, all your fellow countrymen keep shouting lies like the famous ``Zaalim`` story, and calling Pakistan FUNDAMENTALIST... Can anyone answer me why the Zaalim story is every Indian`s own personal experience including the Indian Consul General.

-Yasser Latif Hamdani

PS Kashmir doesnot belong to India or Pakistan, it belongs to KASHMIRIS!

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Adnan #307

What deductions, I get.

I wrote Fascist philosophy begets Fascist attitude.

If my deduction is wrong, correct me.

JI philosophy is what?

To Implement Islam.

Also it thinks that it understands Islam.

And to implement it, any direction is OK.

For example it does not matter whether it comes to power through democratic way, coup or any other means.

Correct me if I am wrong so far.

JI has got the taste of power in 1977 or 78 when Zia-ul-Haq formed the cabinet and JI donated I think two ministers to it.

There are basic flaws in this line of reasoning. First of all it is negating Islam. (How? we can discuss)

Second, after JI resigned fron Zia`s cabinet, it blamed the system for its failure to implement Islam. So it basically admitted that conditions are not conducive for implementing Islam.

As far as the movement by IJT against Zia-ul-Haq.

After the fall of Iran by America and Jihad started in Afghanistan, JI found a golden opportunity in Afghanistan. So it was a vocal supporter of Zia-ul-Haq. To the point that it was the only party in Pakistan which supported Zia-ul-Haq`s Famous Referendum.

In Dow Medical College, inspite of Anti- Zia sentiments, it gave invitation to Zia-ul Haq for convocation. IJT only became against Zia-ul-Haq and took a line anti to its parent party JI when Zia-ul-Haq Banned the students Union. As this was not only directly affecting IJT, but it was hurting most badly. There was no other party with a standing like IJT.

So in essense, crushing of political parties and democracy was good as long as it did not affect JI and IJT. But it was bad, once it affect IJT.

Are you able to see the contradiction.

So instead of asking me, may be you can clarify the position of JI, exactly what does it want?

Does it want power by hook or crook to implement Islam. Or there is more to its philosophy?

Sameer JB#

Another point which I forgot is this.

Nawaz Sharif although not well versed in politics knew the art of politics (and did not know the science of politics).

I remember very well, that even in adverse circumstances, Benazir has said that either me or Nawaz Bhai will be in power.

I Think she knew that only political parties can save the political system.

On the other hand she was probably playing ISI game against MQM for her narrow political aim. And also Nawaz Sharif was doing same.

Nawaz Sharif made the mistake that without a well knit organizational support, he tried to crush PPP and in the end left a clear field for ISI and Army to manipulate, with JI thinking that field is now open for it.

As a reminder, JI did the same thing during Ayub Khan coup. By helping him to crush all political parties of the time. And it became against Ayub Khan only when Ayub Khan tried to crush JI also. (This is in reference to BAhmed`s comment regarding JI)

I think political parties need to realize that although they are adversary in political arena and philosophy, but their survival is also dependent upon the strength of political parties.

Only a dynamic way of politics should lead to survival of political parties. Rather than the negative way of increasing their fortune by crushing opponent.

Sameer #290

I dont know, but whenever I read you, I feel the ice within me melting. It surprises me that even in such an vicious atmosphere, someone can keep his cool and rational thinking alive. Sir, you are a true scientist. Analysis without emotions, and elucidation without bias is you forte. I wish someone like you be a part of planning commission of India. To say a Hindu-Buddhist quote, you have detached yourself from your environment, and hence possess the capability to think objectively. One can not be objective till one considers himself a party in the dispute. I have the deepest regard for you Sir.

Sincerely

To ylh

``Are you the one who had earlier told me on another board that I didnot know enough History, and that Jinnah was a Parsi?

``

Apart from commenting upon your deficiency in logic need I remind you of a similar incident when you claimed that the religious apartheid started in Pak only in 1997. Go and first read ``an objective history of Pakistan`` before preaching me.

Sameer JB #290

Although I might be simplistic in my assessment because of reading between the lines from newspaper.

The important thing for any political party is organizational strength and motivation of workers.

Also the record of standing up in adverse circumstances is very important as well as philosophy.

Image of a party is also very important.

Given the lack of organizational support of IJI in 1988 election, it was Jamat-e-Islami which provided a very strong bulk of organizational support in the form of its workers and IJI showed a very strong standing.

Deobandi groups have quite good organizational support and can be very helpful for King`s party. But unlike JI, probably they will ask for a lion`s share. Because Fazlur-Rehman can be very effective in Baluchistan and NWFP. While they have made inroads organizationally in Sind also.

So the option for Govt. will be to accept the lesser of two evils whichever it thinks is lesser of two evils for it. (Ideally it would wish to rule itself)

It is also possible that Noorani Mian will also join this grouping to his advantage in Sind.

So it is possible that to counter the curse of Muslim League and PPP, the Government might decide on lesser of two evil option.

This is only in case of free and fair election.

But if our rulers continue to think in the BEST NATIONAL INTEREST, they will be successful in alienating majority of Pakistani population including common man from Punjab.

Although it is sad that people are migrating out of economic necessity. But given the current situation, I would sympathesize with them. For at least they have the option of living rather than suicide.

According to recent report Pakistan has finally been able to join the ranks of world`s poorest nations. Alhamdu-Lillah.

If people do not take their destiny in their own hands, our rulers will continue to survive and prosper at the expense of Pakistan and its people.

To all chowkwallas!

The bias in my post against Military is not against military.

One should be clear in his/her thinking regarding the sacredness of institutions and not personalities.

Because institutions will remain, people come and go.

What kind of institutions we want to create is very important?

What is preventing us from creating those institutions?

What is in the best interest of majority of people of Pakistan?

How can we achieve the aim of economic activity, education and prosperity of majority of people of Pakistan?

Adnan Beta Aap Ki Umer Kia Hai Aur Aap Ne Kitna Politics Ko Dekha Hai.

I would recommend you to read two excellent research on Jamat-e-Islami ``The vanguard of Islamic Revolution`` and ``Mowdudi and the making of Islamic Revivalism`` by Syed Vali Reza Nasr. A must read for anyone who want to pursue politics of JI.

Shah Sahab #297

Aap Zinda Hain.:-)

Your input from Pakistan will be much appreciated regarding the real situation on ground.

An article from today`s The News by Benazir Bhutto.

A caliphate in Pakistan

Benazir Bhutto

Pakistan`s military regime, under pressure to return to the barracks, is planning sweeping constitutional reforms. The reforms aim at keeping control of the nation`s destiny in the iron grip of the military whilst technically restoring the country to civil rule. Such constitutional changes can help the country call itself a democracy whilst it functions as a dictatorship. Whether dictatorship can help Pakistan ride out the political storm it finds itself in is another question.

Since democracy was derailed back in November 1996, Pakistan finds itself in the eye of a storm. It is buffeted with foreign policy challenges, an ailing economy, alienation amongst ethnic and religious minorities as well as political stability.

Planned first is the election of military ruler Musharraf as President. Planned second is to arm him with a formidable array of weapons. These include dismissing a Prime Minister, as opposed to the assembly, according to his discretion. Given that five assemblies were dismissed in the last fourteen years, Pakistan can look forward to a repeat of the past. Except its easier to dismiss a prime minister and so Pakistan could end up with a new prime minister every year under this dispensation.

It could end up with more corruption. A Prime Minister besieged by prime ministers-in-waiting is more than ever dependent on a handful of parliamentarians that hold the key between majority and minority. Outrageous demands can, and will, be made by parliamentarians on the Prime Minister. This can only lead to more corruption. Foreign policy can become a farce as foreign governments negotiate with a helpless prime minister whom the president threatens with dismissal should his course be ignored. It renders parliament a non body where members take pay and privileges for doing the bidding of a powerful one man figure who has orwellian control over the entire country. That orwellian Big Brother runs the entire show in a one man exhibition of power that few in history have enjoyed.

It threatens the professionalism of the Pakistani army even as it renders it controversial. The Pakistan army once enjoyed tremendous respect as an institution that played fair and held free elections. That respect came under assault as the army hanged a popular prime minister, formed political parties, rigged election results, manipulated the national census, suffered military set backs in Siachen and Kargil and grabbed as much agricultural and commercial land for self profit.

The Presidential dictator can do much more than fire helpless prime ministers that fail to march to his tune. He can rig elections and render the election commission and the Pakistani judiciary impotent. He can do this by investing the military with the right to hold elections, or rather selections. Under reforms planned is the holding of elections by the army.

Past practice shows that the public has boycotted farcical elections. When General Zia held a referendum in 1985, less than five per cent people participated. In 1997, only sixteen per cent of the people took part in controversial general elections. The protest was made through a thundering silence.

To prevent a repeat of people`s protest, another planned amendment makes voting compulsory at the cost of imprisonment. This means building more prisons to put in dissenters. It puts into place huge machinery where unable voters can file for exception from voting without imprisonment. Much more importantly, it snatches the precious right to choose whether to vote or not, a right elemental to fundamental human rights.

The aim of the military regime is clear: to dismantle all institutions other than the military itself. The political parties are one institution that has countered four martial laws in the last fifty four years of the country`s history. Now that threat to military hegemony is to be removed by denying parties the right to freely organize. The military aims to interfere in the right of association through the election commission by setting rules for the internal workings of political parties.

Elections are planned every three years and political parties are to hold internal elections annually. Given that there are national, provincial, local and party election, the politicians will be busy in elections all the time leaving the military free to turn Pakistan into their own personal fiefdom, above any accountability before law or people.

Some amongst the Pakistani and international community are comfortable with a constitutional dictator. General Musharraf promised to become another Reformer in the mould of Turkey`s secular revolutionary Ataturk. Much to the chagrin of fundamentalists, he posed with his pet dogs. More seriously, he allowed the hanging of a sectarian leader Jhangvi, promised to start talks with India ``any time and any place`` and hinted he would sign the CTBT to signal nuclear confidence building.

Yet, concentrating enormous powers in a single individual by subordinating the election commission, judiciary, legislature, armed forces and political parties under him is extremely dangerous. To take over the state, one needs only to take over the single post.

The concerns are that such enormous constitutional powers in a country whose army spearheaded the Afghan Jihad against the foreign occupation of Afghanistan could have deleterious consequences. There are serious concerns that this concentration of power suits those who talk of a soft revolution more. It damages those who seek to see Pakistan take its place with respect and dignity in the region and the world community as a free and responsible nation conforming to global values.

This could well be the soft revolution that political extremists have promised in the name of religion. It is a threat to take over the Pakistan State in two phases. In the first phase, the take-over is headed by the army chief. In the second phase, the extremists hope to install as army chief a fundamentalist. That fundamentalist army chief will declare himself the new Caliph of Islam on the pattern of the Taliban leader Mullah Omar. As politicians fight futile and meaningless elections, the Caliph will concentrate on spreading Islam, Taliban style, through central Asia to the doors of Europe.

Pakistan and its direction is critical to the direction of the Muslim world. It is a country with weapons of mass destruction. If Pakistan falls under the fundamentalist forces, with plans to export Islam, a series of Muslim countries could find themselves targeted for destabilization.

No doubt coup leader General Musharraf will be sold this plan as a way to control political parties, the ballot and the people. More ominous is the concentration of power in a single hand. It signals a departure for the fundamentalists from past tactics. For some time, the pro-jihadi forces in Pakistan sought a constitutional takeover working through Mr Sharif and his party. Mr Sharif twice promised to introduce a theocracy. Lacking a constitutional majority in the Pakistani Senate, where the Opposition held him at bay, he was unable to do so. He did praise the Taliban and did promise to turn the country into a theocracy the moment he got his majority in the Senate. But his strong-arm tactics twice led to his downfall before he could constitutionally legislate a dictatorship legitimized in the name of Islam.

Another time the fundamentalists tried to turn Pakistan into a theocracy through junior officers’ coup. The failed military coup of 1995, led by Brigadier Mustansir, was to declare Pakistan a Caliphate. The Brigadier`s aborted broadcast to the nation demonstrated the intent to interfere in other Muslim countries as a right upon ``oppressed Brothers in Islam``. Now the hopes of transforming the country into a theocratic dictatorship are pinned on General Musharraf. He is to be led up the garden path seduced by presidential powers.

But this is a ploy to rip the elements of a pluralistic society, to put into motion a constitutional dictatorship and convert it into one led by a hidden Mullah Omar. This is dangerous for the people of Pakistan, South Asia and the Muslim world. It is the promise of converting Islam`s second largest country into a religious dictatorship in the vanguard of a new crusade. And unless it is stopped, more than the people of Pakistan can suffer.

The author is the former Prime Minister of Pakistan

In defense of Pakistani politicians

One of the things that has always shocked me - a curious layman looking in from the outside - is the way Pakistani politicians are cursed by Pakistanis themselves.

Please for God`s sake, take the politicians of our UP, Bihar, in fact, the entire northern belt, and give us people like Zulfi Bhutto, or even Benazir, Nawaz, and Shahbaaz. I am sure sensible Pakistanis will be back to cancel the deal very soon.

Don`t beat up on politicians just because they don`t meet some mythical ideal standards. Instead, perhaps, we should focus on creating conditions that allow good politicians to come up, and then, having aquired power, operate freely as they see best. Neither India nor Pakistan has really figured out how to do both these things properly.

So, come on, folks, let us not put all the blame on Pakistani politicians. They are like their brothers and sisters in trade everywhere.

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Ref adnan_672 #: 306

[barring Mr. Jinnah the rest of the ruliers were all dictators]

Mr. Jinnah WAS the first and original dictator of Pakistan and before that, of the Muslim League.

The niceties of constitutional law were all thrown to the wind and Mr. Jinnah the emperor was revealed in the full glory of his new clothes when he said, ``I (as Governor-General) will give the orders and the Prime Minister will take his orders from me`` whereas in the constitutional role, the Governor-General is only expected to provide advice and counsel to the cabinet headed by the Prime Minister.

re: ylh # 291

I agree with the sentiment behind your post. If I were a Pakistani, I would think exactly as you do.

But, ylh, as many of the recent posts in response to you have shown, morality-based arguments are necessarily fraught with logical holes, because in our complex world considerations of strategy, morality, and interests are hopelessly entangled.

You are a first-rate nationalist. You would recognize that, more than morality-based arguments, interest-based arguments are likely to lead to a common understanding - a prerequisite to solving any problem whatsoever. Think about it, even within the bounds of our own nations, we can`t decide what is moral and what is not. How much more difficult it must be in international affairs.

All that such approaches do is to convince us that we are the moral side fighting an intractable immoral side. That makes us angry. Which then complicates problems further.

The fact that some Indian students might be willing to countenance `freedom` for (all of ?) Kashmir is not a matter of great hope. There are many such people in India, just as there are many in Pakistan who believe that a time has come for Pakistan to cut its losses and recognize the line of control as the international boundary. These people, unfortunately, carry little weightage, and are unlikely to do so in any near future.

We are stuck with a situation that to some people must strike as immoral. But there is a great deal of immorality in this world, ylh, and we have decide whether we want to live peacefully with our neighbors or keep fighting moral wars against them. It is a very difficult decision, and until now it appears to have been far easier to keep fighting an uninterrupted moral and emotional war.

It takes a greater courage and strength of character to live peacefully with someone we may not always agree with, or some of whose actions we may even abhorr, than to be a mujahid convinced of one`s own righteousness. Human history shows that very well.

It is for this reason that I am quite wary of putting Kashmir in the path of mutual peace. I don`t doubt your sincerity in seeking peace, but you may be underestimating the irrationality and emotionalism of Indians as well. Can two emotional and irrational people find peace?

Ylh

``Are you the one who had earlier told me on another board that I didnot know enough History, and that Jinnah was a Parsi?

``

This is the most stupid logical( I hate to call it logical) argument. Seems you do not have an idea of what logic is all about. This is like saying since you were wrong about X, you have to be wrong about Y. Hasty(stupid) generalisation indeed.

TO Asad_K and Other Chowkwallas:

I am going out of town for a few days. Asad, I will write a response to your post as soon as I return.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

In response to adnan_672 (Reply # 306)
Dear Adnan:

Your statement: “barring Mr. Jinnah the rest of the rulers were all dictators”

My reply: I respect Mr. Jinnah. However, please see my Chowk articles for my mixed feelings about him. If dictatorship is an antithesis of democracy, then on a scale of 1-10 (1 being a pure democracy and 10 being a pure dictatorship) we may identify various shades of democracy/democrats and dictatorship/dictators.

Your statement “ur claim that `JI and other religious parties` have always supported dictators has yet to be supported with facts (specificallt vis-a-vis JI)”.

My reply: This is not what I wrote. I said: “As far as JI and other religious interests are concerned, they have always supported the dictators as long as their interests were (overtly or covertly) served.” So, I did not make a blanket statement. I come from Karachi and I do remember well that JI (at least in Karachi) was against both Ayub Khan and Z. A. Bhutto (dictators or otherwise). You can’t read my sentence without the qualifier (i.e. “as long as their interests were (overtly or covertly) served”).

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

P.S. JI has long been working on a particular agenda very very systematically. There are a lot of JI agenda sympathizers in and outside Pakistan who have sufficient political and non-political influence in Pakistan. Could you explain to me why JI has not died so far despite her poor electoral victories?