Obsession with Borderline Issues

Amen!

Ras

I dont think that the article has any academic merit whatsoever. I dont know under which rock the author has been living so far. The choice of examples is biased and pathetically attempts to show only that side of the picture which author wants us to show. It can not be called an endeavour based on research and analysis; it is more of a propaganda poster or pamphelet. It doesnot serve any purpose other than irking a very small minority and does not raise a fraction of an inch in the level of awareness of the people. This commie crap has been around for decades. I hope the author is feeling better after venting it.

Welcome back Sameer! An interesting article which may generate some noise. Let us hope that various interactors do not fail to focus upon the real message of this article.

Sameer, kindly act as a kind of moderator (if there is a need).

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

P.S. Please write me at bahmad@home.com.

Excellent article Sameer!!

I wrote on a slightly similar issue in my reply #172 ``Lets destroy Bamiyan Buddhas``.

I`ve been trying to understand the origin of intolerance in religions myself. To date the best source of knowledge on this topic I`ve found is ``History of God`` by Karen Armstrong.

Your article totally reflects my views exactly.

Adios

Sameer,

I appreciate your frustration with Mullahs and their moustache-less beards. But this article addresses the minority fanatics, not the average Pakistani.

Unless you`re giving in to the misconception that most Pakistanis are fanatic Mullahs and equally fanatic Hijabans?

I liked the jist of your last paragraph.

Excellent analysis Sameer.

The concept of duality is a difficult one to grasp for most of us. For the most part we like things to be black and white for the simple reason that it makes life easier and more manageable. Some sage wondered at one point

``The profoundest truth is one whose exact opposite is also true``.........

later

-sac

Saima shah and Chowk staff:

Thanks very much for accepting and publishing this article.

Ras Siddiqui: Thannks!

Scout: You are absolutely right. This article is about the desire of most of the Pakistanis for preservation and success of Pakistan through achieving prosperous, progressive and just Pakistani society. If I did not have the love, respect and faith in the resilience of most of Pakistanis against militant extremism of few, in the name of religion, I would not be so passionately involved in the affairs of Pakistan after being in the US for 15+ years. Other than that my ideas about religion represent a very tiny minority of Pakistanis. I suppose all of us learn and compose our ideas based on interests, experiences and exposure. Frankly speaking, my experiences with the way religion is practiced in Pakistan and in my family are not that great.

sac: Sir, you have a fantastic way of expressing your point, briefly, concisely and entertaining simultaneously. I wish to have used that great quote about absolute truth in this article. Your post at ``Biases in the Western Media`` was excellent.

Hi Sameer

Welcome back. An excellent piece of logical analysis. Apart from highlighting the uselessness of the borderline issues, you have rightly pointed out the need for a dynamic model(time dependent model)in the following lines.

``Moreover, the limitations and rigidity of two extremes led to additional data points (new concepts) within close proximity of G and B and were suitable for a particular time frame only. The biased nature of additional data points and extreme nearness to G and B kept them precise but not accurate for future reformation.``

While interpolating between 0 and 1, a solution, a pseudo static pattern may be established in a short time span. But it should be realised that with change in time most of the variables dictating such equlibrium may change and hence the solution. Thus it would be good if society is flexible allowing such time dependent corrections to evolve on its own instead of adhering to an inflexible ideology, some tenets of which may have lost their relevence. Change and reform is a fact of life and the societies that become stagnant, wither away in time.

Cheers

Urstruly: Thanks for your comments. Commie crap? Nah. I have never been a commie although I do not hate it with a passion. Passion for me is limited to the things/ ideas/ people I love.

[In my opinion, the news of the demise of communism is premature. After all, Christianity remained out of fashion and on the edge for the first three hundred years of its existance. By the way, there is one fine social geographer here at chowk who could insightfully discuss it]

There are two focal points in this article. Ist one is my personal view about some aspects of dogma, as I mentioned to scout and the other that I would urge and request all interactors to focus is ``What is Good for Pakistan``, what is good for preserving and making it a success-a success beneficial to both state and society. In this regard, I have avoided bringing in issues of foreign policy and relationship with neighboring states. How can we make our own house better than what shape it is in,today? Like any other trouble-shooting project, identification of root causes, planning and implementation are the step to be taken in that order. For example if I identify defense spending, larger that average family sizes leading to low saving rates and lower spending on items other than food and clothing and expenses related to Hajj/ Umra/ Qurbani. Can we plan some concrete steps and implement them wisely to the benefit of state and society?

The issue of Islam-Hinduism and Pakistan-India will naturally come up because Interactors of Indian origin are equal participants in any discussion at chowk. Here I will point out the importance of desire. In my opinion, there is no point arguing if there is no desire to understand each other better. To understand each other, respect is essential. Unfortunately many have no desire to understand each other; mudslinging is their favorite past-time at chowk. Since I have the desire; Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism are not ridiculed but appreciated in this article. Of course, I do have difficulty accepting some aspects of those religions but I would rather prefer the criticism to come from within those people, just like I did for the religion of my birth.

You would have been better off calling my ideas with regard to religion as New Age crap than a comie crap. This is expected from a person who have been reading eastern philosophies, Buddhism, Joseph Campbell, Robert Thurman (father of Uma Thurman), Dalai Lama, Deepak Chopra, Karen Armstrong, Humanist magazine, etc. I have been an avid reader of magazines specializing in eastern thoughts, like Tricycle. I never expected this part to be appreciated much less accepted even by those who generally agree with a secular, liberal and rational approach to Pakistan`s problems. It will not be a disappointment for me for readers/ interactors to dislike or ignore that segment except my ranting about the role of Mullahs in almost every aspect of religious, social and political life.

``The pre-occupation with insignificant extremes in the name of religion is misplaced, misguided and retrogressive.``

...what utter nonsense! ..... it is this insignificant extremity that differentiates us, the true believers, from the infidels who pollute the wrong side of the border ..... it is also this extremity that seperates the jew from the gentile ...... however, i have often wondered about christ - was he.... ? ...... and what about the sahaba ...... when did this obsession with extremities start and why ?

Bilal Ahmad: Thanks for your comments. I was worried about you making an unwise decision to exit, after reading one of your recent post. I request all, including Sadna and Arun Gupta, to not make any such decision. Where is another fine writer, fairdinkum?

[Fairdinkum: Take care of yourself on Ashoora (10th Muharram-April 4, 2001). Make sure Riaz Basra is not limping in your shadow]

Bilal, I have thus been successful in moderating all my three previous articles and hopefully this one will stay on course also. I am really counting on your insightful thoughts about the discussion regarding what is good for Pakistan and do not expect you to side with me on the sensitive religious matters. My Indian buddies will perhaps come to rescue on those matters. I promise to write you e-mail tomorrow explaining the great missed opportunity.

Sincerely,

Sameer

``The pre-occupation with insignificant extremes in the name of religion is misplaced, misguided and retrogressive.``

...what utter nonsense! ..... it is this insignificant extremity that differentiates us, the true believers, from the infidels who pollute the wrong side of the border ..... it is also this extremity that seperates the jew from the gentile ...... however, i have often wondered about christ - was he.... ? ...... and what about the sahaba ...... when did this obsession with extremities start and why ?

Sameer,

That was a good article. There`s a persian verse by Allama Iqbal saying that old foundation of holy Kaaba has got weak, so lets tear it down and try to rebuild it (of course metaphorically speaking). That view indeed is shared by a lot of people. I read it in a review on his book ``Reinterpretation of Islamic thought`` by Khawja Masud. It seems to be a good book, tell me if you have read/ gained anyhting out of it.

I liked your explanation of duality and gray region. I also think we should have to get rid of absolutism and the naive notion that any particular idealogy can explain everything. Instead of being stubborn on a particular/ extreme point of view, lets synthesize different contradictions of life, as dialectical materialism proposes, sorry for sounding Marxist :).

I hope your article will shift the debate on chowk to this pertinent issue of blind faith and how it causes decline of intellectual movements and even morality in a society.

Just when I think Chowk is damned someone like Sameer comes along and write this wonderful piece.

Sameer awesome piece . . . talk about clear thinking! and solutions!

YES!! there is hope for Pakistan ! and pakistanis! yes I feel proud today of not just being a human being but being a Pakistani human being. I am NOT proud of being an Islamic republic of Pakistan Pakistani but the following kind of Pakistani :

``The keys are flexibility of imagination, desire for improvement, realization of the drawbacks of the old structure, reason and rationality. ``

and

``A life spent for peace, harmony, reason, rationality, family, friends and society is much better than a life spent fighting for borderline issues related to dogmatic borders only. ``
I see this kind of mentality in all of us . . . there is a burning desire in most of us Pakistanis to improve and get rid of the old . . .


Following is a bit of editing advice , if you feel it is unsolicited then no need to read further :

I think the top of your piece wants a bit of editing, a little less redundancy . . . look for where you repeat (reword the same ideas) instead of rewording your statement, provide examples or illustrations.

Thanks.

Sameer, I am disseminating this ``prapagundah`` and ``palm-pha-late`` all over the place with or without your permission :)

Would you like to collaborate on a newsletter for Pakistani Professionals on the East Coast (NYC) ? You can write or assist in an advisory capacity by sharing your insights, visions, suggestions etc.

More importantly organized religion (/ islamists)are raping the country precisely because they are : organized. We have to come up with models of organizing ourselves, don`t you agree? Any thoughts on that ? any how tos etc. ?

Its such a waste to see guys like Omar and you and Hamidm etc. go to waste because they are essentially struggling on their own against a huge mass of interconnected oil money funded/ ``chanda``-supported clerics.

We need an organization where intelligent, successful men and women who are strong and rational can love and live and prosper.

Sameer,

You`re very thoughtful and knowledgeable. I knew that from our discussions on science but this reinforces that.

Too bad most of the other Pakistanis on this forum are goons who, instead of learning from you, will ridicule you.