The Chicken Hawks Of Pakistan

#273 sadna

Sadhana, you are a very passionate writer indeed! When you say a quarter million dead, are you refering to Punjab or the Partition? My understanding is that the latter caused a few million deaths. I think much of the bloodshed during the Partition was because it came so quickly and the 2 sides were completely unprepared to protect the peaceful citizens from the marauders. I think India should much better prepared this time. As for international involvement, I keep going back to the situation in Kosova, where the West seems to be waking up to reality - that balkanization is not in the benefit of the larger world. Kashmir WILL NOT BE independent, will not be a handmaiden of outside powers. If need be, India can stipulate that any outside involvement must also guarantee the presence of UN forces there. I agree that it may seem like India is giving into the ugly idea of TNT but we have to recognize reality - there are so many secessionist, cetrifugal forces acting on India that it is time we learned to defuse the tensions by whatever means.

anarayan # 287

FARANGI_KUSH #: 270

Quit it. If we can`t value our women - the best anywhere -- let us not drag them through the mud.

Indian or Pakistani, it makes no difference.

For our Indian Friends.....

Enter The Dragon?

http://www.thenewspapertoday.com/world/inside.phtml?NEWS_ID=14439

Chund Roz Aur Meri Jaan......

To Sadna`s post, one could also add:

http://www.expressindia.com/ie/daily/19980421/11150124.html

Gun vs media in the Valley (April 21, 1998)

Sultan Shahin

With media attention fixed squarely on the general elections, a positive development in Kashmir has escaped our attention. The chairman of the Hurriyat Conference, Mirwaiz Maulvi Omar Farooq, deserves our thanks for directing our attention towards the freedom the Kashmir print media is beginning to enjoy with hard-hitting editorials against the culture of the gun which had not long ago threatened to destroy the unique Kashmiri culture of reverence for all religions and true acceptance of unity in diversity.

This is not to the liking of Mirwaiz Farooq, of course. He bitterly criticised the newspapers for what he called ``toeing the government line under pressure.`` According to him, these newspapers played a positive role earlier and have now succumbed to government pressure. Obviously, when these papers highlighted the activities of various militant organisations and publicised their viewpoints and carried full-page advertisements of the ``achievements`` of various militant outfits, while ignoring hard news,both national and international, they were playing a ``positive role``.

Mirwaiz should know that the people of Kashmir have not forgotten the fact that in spite of succumbing to the militant pressure so completely, the newspapers used to face threats and used often to be forced to suspend publication for weeks together. In fact the fear of the gun had overwhelmed every aspect of life in the valley since 1989. Several journalists fell prey to the gun. The killings of Mohammad Shaban Wakeel of Al-Safa and radio newsreader Faryad are still fresh in memory. Significantly, two leading Urdu newspapers published from Srinagar have sharply reacted to Mirwaiz Farooq`s statement.

In a scathing comment Daily Aftab has said: ``The pressure of the gun terrorised the newspapers to such an extent that they could neither remain impartial nor perform their duties properly. The Hurriyat itself is aware of the impact of the gun in Kashmir. Due to this very pressure newspaper writings were one-sided and the papers werelabelled by the government as agents of the militant outfits ... It is surprising that Hurriyat leaders never opened their mouth about the pressure of the gun on the local press.``

The daily Srinagar Times, too, has reacted in a similar vein: ``Whatever Maulana Saheb has said is a half truth. The newspapers published from Kashmir are facing various pressures for the last eight to ten years. If Maulana Saheb goes through these newspapers of the past eight or nine years, he will come to know under what pressure the newspapers had to function, resulting in the trampling of those very principles of journalism which a journalist has to aide by ... Whatever these newspapers reported was a distorted version. This used to be a half-truth only and this was the result of pressure. It was a journalistic dishonesty, a fraud upon the profession.``

How can the Hurriyat spokesman claim that we have abandoned our impartiality, Aftab asks rhetorically. ``Perhaps Mirwaiz doesn`t know that when the gun culturestarted here eight years ago, the government made the newspapers its first and main target. A Bill was rushed through the state legislative assembly which empowered the government to impose censorship. But the state of Jammu & Kashmir knows that the newspapers fought against the powers given to the government by that legislation with all the vigour they could muster...Any one who did not speak against the militant pressure on the newspapers has no right to complain now.``

Having lost his own father to the culture of militancy, Mirwaiz Omar Farooq, one would hope, should himself be particularly sensitive to the destruction wrought by the gun culture. His father the late Mirwaiz had the reputation of being moderate and secular. In fact he is considered by many a martyr in the cause of what has come to be known as Kashmiriyat. Would one be right to assume that Mirwaiz Farooq himself feels trapped in the same web of militancy and is obliged to make statements that go so much against common sense and even commonknowledge?

qalander #281 How is this, ustad ji? It is dedicated to the other braadran on this board.

Dummm mussst qalander dhurrr rrragrra

kashmir fatah karae ga too

burger khhanay kay baad?

mooN dhonay jai ga too

falsfaa jharnay kay baad?

Duma Dumm musst qalander

Dummm mussst qalander dhurrr rrragrra

So here`s the report card on Kashmir:

India: trying to quell a very disaffected people through all means possible. Uncontrolled bleeding points to need for political solution. This made difficult by radical militants and complete lack of trust between parties concerned.Situaton: licking its wounds, confused.

Pakistan: haemmoraging on account of the cost of its ambitions. Chances of achieving success: dim. Options of backing out: few. Its primary instruments of foreign policy (jehadis) mutating independently and largely out of control, and now needing to be kept appeased. Situation: critical.

Kashmiris: Suffered major body blows. Largely disillusioned, fragmented and tired. Their counterweight against India, Pakistan, now proving to be only a weight.

Score: losers-3. Winners-0.

// * * Legal bases for freedom movements. Equality of all freedom movements. * *//

Romair # 262 and 263

Dear Romair, you ask:

``Who is the ruling authority that decides the legitimacy or illegitimacy of the areas on which freedom movements can be based? In my opinion, it should be the people fighting for the freedom and not the people suppressing the freedom fighters.``

All those ``fighting for their freedom`` invariably believe that their endeavors are legitimate. Hence, one can not take the `beliefs` of the majority of those involved in any uprising as the basis of the wider legitimacy of their acts. The same holds for the `beliefs` of those ``suppressing the freedom fighters.`` These people invariably believe that such movements are illegitimate.

What, then, are the legitimate bases of such ``freedom movements?`` You suggest that religious differences can form legitimate bases for ``freedom movements`` just as other differences such as ethnicity, race, historical claims over land etc have done. You ask:

* ``What should a group of people do if they are being discriminated against and killed, or not being allowed to prosper, based on their religion?``

* ``If Muslim Pakistanis today started killing all the Christians Pakistanis, do you think it would justifiable for the Pakistani Christians to demand a separate independent area for themselves?``

In both cases, your arguments turn on massive and structural discrimination (and other forms of maltreatment such as killings), not religion. The same is true for all the cases you mention below:

* ``Is it legal for a freedom movement to be based on geographical occupation (the Indian freedom movement against the British), ethnicity (the Bangladeshi freedom movement against Pakistan), language/culture (Quebecan independence movement against Canada), finances/taxation (the USA independence movement against the British), racism (the Black freedom struggles in South Africa), land (Palestenian freedom movement against Israel)?``

Notice that the core justification for ``freedom movement`` in each case arises not from geographical presence of aliens, ethnic/linguistic/cultural/racial differences among people, financial levies by states, but from discrinination between segments of populations, linked to the absence of effective democracy at the national level.

Democracy - one in which every individual has a single vote, one that seeks the ideal of absolute equality of ALL in the eye of the law - does not eradicate discrimination, but it de-instutionalizes and weakens it. When that happens, emotional justifications underpinnings ``freedom movements`` become far less compelling, and such movements, if left to themselves, become weaker over time.

Are all ``independence uprisings`` equal?

All ``independence uprisings`` are ``equal`` only to the extent that the supporters of all ``independence uprisings`` believe their undertakings to be legitimate and believe in their inevitable and decisive success.

But as I argued earlier, belief in the legitimacy of one`s actions is no defensible moral justification. And, belief in the divine inevitability of success can be delusional, as our friends the Chinese would advise the Tibetans.

Like all other human endeavors, ``indendependence uprisings`` differ widely in nature, scope, timing, durability, and likelihood of success. Except at the level of rhetoric, the movement for the liberation of the Republic of Texas is not the same as the movement for the freedom of Qubec, nor is the latter equivalent to the South African blacks` struggle against their white rulers.

Best regards

--------

Karachi....I missed you. Eklavya786

Re: FARANGI_KUSH #: 270

``They say that those who have been slaves for a long time cannot be chivalrous & generous toward others.The sense of insecurity & low-esteem lways makes them coward & `bania`-like.The wealth accumulation & miserly existence is always waiting for those free-spirited men from the mountains. It is this psyche that runs deep in the hindu nation. The Khan heroes & hindu fair-colored heroines of the Indian movies is not a coincident it is a freudian-slip at the collective level.

wassalaam.``

Dear Farangi,

Have you read Alberuni`s India ? If you have, its probably the abridged version. Recently the full text was put as a downloadable pdf at this localtion:

http://us.share.geocities.com/indiahistory25/ai.pdf

I encourage all Indians/Pakistanis to read it. It gives a near-complete picture of Indian life circa 1000 AD in the region of Punjab, Sindh.

Here`s an excerpt of interest to you, Farangiji:



Chapter 69: On matrimony, the menstrual courses, embryos, and childbed.

[On the causes of prostitution.] People think with regard to harlotry that it is allowed with them. Thus, when Kˆabul was conquered by the Muslims and the Ispahbad of Kˆabul adopted Islˆam, he stipulated that he should not be bound to eat cows’ meat, nor to commit sodomy (which proves that he abhorred the one as much as the other).



Looks like your Turkish master`s new religion has some interesting religious bindings !

What a waste of those Sindhi women!

As a personal preference, I`ve always found them unbearably hot. I remember salivating over Salma Agha (what a $%# !) some time ago.

Kashmir for Sindh - any day!

Regading Khan heroes:

Shakrukh: This guy could easily pass for one of those roadside salesmen at Chandni-Chowk, Delhi who slide up to you mumbling ``pant piece, shirt piece..``.

Salman: We`ll let this one go ... he`s half hindu after all.

Aamir: This guy could blow away, if you sneeze too hard. Those scrawny arms ...

Take your pick who Pakistani women frig themselves to sleep over: Sunny Deol, Sunjay Dutt, Aditya Pancholi, Hrithik Roshan, Sunil Shetty or Akshay Kumar.

salaamwa

btw, it looks like Mirwaiz Omar Farooq has said different things to different people:
http://www.indian-express.com/ie/daily/19990104/0045013.html
This is ingratitude, Mirwaiz Farooq

Sultan Shahin

Jan 4 1999

``Indisputably, the Indian government is the known enemy of Islam and Muslims. It is trying its best to prevent the establishment of a big Islamic state like greater Pakistan in the Indian sub-continent and believes that Kashmir`s accession to Pakistan means a fearsome Islamic power which would in turn help protect the Muslims.``

That you could make such wild statements while speaking to the Saudi journal Al-Madina recently without fear of untoward consequences back home is itself the biggest contradiction of your preposterous allegations.

One need not say any more. But, Mirwaiz Farooq, you are a tragic figure in our minds and we feel great compassion for you. You were just 18 when your father the Mirwaiz was killed by Kashmiri militancy on account of his sensible, moderate views about Islam and Kashmiri nationalism.

This thrust you in the hereditary position of the Mirwaiz, and led to your donning the mantle of the Chairman of Hurriyat Conference. But it also stopped your education and it now seemsblocked your intellectual growth.

It seems rather foolish for someone to be sitting in Saudi Arabia and saying: ``If Muslims are committed to Islamic Sharia they can form a great civilisational world power``. Can there be greater nonsense than this? Is Saudi Arabia not committed to Islamic Sharia? And is this American colony not ``a great civilisational world power``? Is Pakistan, the country you want Kashmir to accede to, not committed to Islamic Sharia, at least since 1956? And is this IMF-colony not ``a great civilisational world power``?

I must tell you Omar Farooq, in case you do not know, you are very lucky to be an Indian national and not a citizen of either of these ``great civilisational world powers``. Do you know what happens to Saudis who dare to speak a word against the Monarchy, which as you must know is a patently un-Islamic system of government? They are beheaded publicly without any trial. And what about the country of your choice, Pakistan? Right now the leader of opposition and formerPrime Minister is fighting for an exit visa from the country she ruled for two terms. Benazir Bhutto cannot even leave Pakistan, not to speak of living there.

Do give a thought to this fact sometimes, Omar Farooq. You are the leader of a secessionist movement. You want to break up a country that hates your people and your religion, as you say, but allows you to go around the world and spew venom against it, to condemn it in the vilest of language, level whatever baseless allegations you want to charge it with. Is your country a greater civilisation, a more confident democracy?

As a Kashmiri leader you must be aware of the plight of fellow Kashmiris in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir. I was in Pakistan recently and happened to meet some ex-militants from Indian Kashmir in Rawalpindi. They had received their training in ``Azad`` Kashmir. It was what they learnt about Pakistan there that caused their disillusionment. As they said, ``Azad`` Kashmiris can`t even apply for jobs without first signing a declaration stating that they believe in the idea of Kashmiri accession to Pakistan. The fact that the state of Pakistan forces them to say that means that it knows they do not want to remain a part of Pakistan. And why should they? Pakistan has already sold part of their land to China. It had no right to do so. It has handed over the entire Northern Areas of Gilgit and Baluchistan, two-thirds of the area under its occupation, to its armed forces. The other one-third has been designated as the so-called `Azad Kashmir`, but it is run by the Ministry of Kashmir Affairs at Islamabad which is usually headed by a non-Kashmiri who doesn`t even know the distance between Muzaffarabad and Bagh. It has an Assembly which doesn`t have the powers of even a municipal committee.

You are indeed lucky to be an Indian citizen, Omar Farooq. It is nobody`s case that all is well in India, that we have no problems of any kind. Yes, there have been violations of human rights in Kashmir and elsewhere. Yes, there is intolerance in our societytoo. But we are free to fight against the injustices. You are free even to run a secessionist movement. Court your blessings too, sometimes, Omar Farooq. Ingratitude is akin to kufr (disbelief) in Islam.

This is getting interesting. Ayatollah ursturly goes after maulana krashid and jay, harimau and rsaxena duke it out with El Shrinko.

Re ferozek, given all the animosity over the last few years, the ladakhis are going to feel more comfortable with India rather than Pakistan in its current state/form and likewise for the Pandits/Hindus of Jammu. which leaves us with the valley. The Indians are not going to roll over and hand over the territory and the Paki administration is not going to back down one bit. It`s this stupid izzat mentality.

Another way to look at it, just another meaningless war of attrition in the name of the alleged man above over a piece of real estate that most people on earth don`t give a rat`s rear end. Sure, you will have those clowns [on Chowk and outside] who will believe that this is the raison etre for their beliefs and froth in vain. In other words, nothing is going to change and the same old crap is going to go on. As Yogi Berra said, it`s like deja vu, all over again.

``Especially the case when the death squads of Indian Army killed 40 sikhs during Clinton`s visit which was immediately followed by massacre of Hindu pilgrims by the same death squads``.

Umair,

You keep coming up with these fantastic allegations that are just heresay. Kindly post some proof of these allegations (not just rumors or some press clippings from your press but something more substantial). These are very serious matters. What did the Indian Army and the GOI hope to gain. Sikhs form about 20% of the army. If this were true, they would have revolted by now. Indian Army would not have taken any such orders from the government. The fact of the matter is ethnic cleansing by the Jehadis has been going on for sometime. Stop living in a dream world. As i see it, your country is falling apart. I say this not out of malice but as a fact. There is a seething resentment among the Sindhis about the way they are treated by Punjabis. In normal course, if there were democracy,this would find a natural outlet in the form of protests,demonstrations etc. In a military dictatorship,this is not possible. Pakistan will fall to its own contradictions and to its own internal enemies. India is too busy with its problems to do any damage to Pakistan.

So stop dreaming about Kashmir and set your house in order. In the next post let us all discuss about Sindhi vs Punjabi problem

sridhar

Re: Reply #: 272

``Seeking and adhering to dictates of public consensus has not been acceptedor institutionalised in half a century in Pakistan, so why should a national ideology like Pakistan`s which considers democracy and secularism to be fake and futile concepts in the subcontinental context want Kashmir to have what Pakistan doesnot? Why should those cannot bring themselves to deal with minorities on an equal basis, care when they try to precipitate a second Partition?``.

Sadna,

Very well said.

sridhar

Re:Reply #: 269

``The support for freedom cannot be equated to support for repression. If it is, then presumably the Freedom struggle in India was wrong and the British wrong to see reason and go home``.

hobbyty,

The freedom struggle in India was in most part ``peaceful``. I am saying,in most part, because sure there were some groups who believed that only violence can win India freedom. This group did not have the overwhelming support that Gandhi had. The genius of Gandhi lay in the fact that he intuitively realised that non-vilence was the only way to go against such an overwhelmingly superior (militarily) opponent. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that Gandhi was a big factor in British granting India its freedom. Gandhi condemned the Indians when they transgressed the rules of non-violence as happened during the ``chowri-chowra`` incidence when a few hapless policemen were killed by a mob. He called off an agitation saying we were not ready. It is only because of Gandhi that when India became independent,after all the violence had ended, we were able to think rationally and have a democratic,secular constitution which exists to this day. That a nation of 300 million at that time,with about 30% literacy and one of the poorest countries in the world at that time, could think of democracy and secular values,was a tribute to ideals of Gandhi and the leadership. In striking contrast,few other countries which became independent from colonial rule can claim to have made such a smooth transition to democracy and secularism. If one existed,the other did not.

Kashmir`s problem started only in late 80`s. Until then they participated in elections. Sure they had a unique culture and felt different from rest of India. For that matter, Tamils feel different. They call their state Tamil Nadu or a country of Tamils. But they are still Indians. If Kashmiris want out of the union, they need to convince the majority Indians that they want out and they need to do this peacefully. By taking to violence,they have only rendered harm to themselves. Violence only begets violence.

I do not think Kashmir is a religious issue. It has been made into that. If it were really a religious issue, my question is: What is it in islamic thinking that makes one take to arms for a cause however justified it may be? Does islam preach violence? Those in the chowk who are saying that Kashmir is a religious issue need to answer this question. Jehad came first not the Indian army. If i am wrong,give me proof and i will shut up and not talk about it again. Indian army is on the defensive in Kashmir. By the very nature of its job, certain excesses are inevitable. As long as jehad is done violently,India will have a justification in crushing it by whatever means it can.

``A reminder, the label ``Liberal`` was meant to denote a political ideology proposing a ``reduced role for the state, the maximization of individual liberty, economic freedom and reliance on markets, and decentralized decision making``.

Hobbyty,

Much of above viz. economic freedom,decentralisation is happening in India today. State C.Ms go to foreign lands and invite companies into their states. That is how Hyderabad, Chennai, Bangalore,Delhi have grown into I.T centers. The days are gone when Delhi called the shots on all matters. When IMF chief came to India he visited Bangalore before he visited Delhi. In such a changed scenario,when States are asking and getting powers to forge ahead without center`s approval, what does Kashmiri struggle mean. Do they want freedom to trade as they please,with whom they please: they already have it. The problem seems to be that the new leadership is in a ``freedom`` mode when it can think of nothing other than freedom from Indian union. Kashmir is a landlocked state and cannot survive without India. All the aspirations of Kashmiris can be met within the Union. As i said if they want out,they need to convince me and the rest of 1 billion of us why they want out and why they need violence to prove their point. Until then the struggle will go on.

sridhar

Dummm mussst qalander dhurrr rrragrra

Sur pey joota inglistaani

aur putloon mein hai paani

khaaon burger,no biryaani

hindu mein hoon--no asthaani

Dummmm musssst qalander dhurrr rrrraghrra

Re: Reply #: 264

Urstruly,

You say things that are unsubstantiated. Please furnish some proof.

sridhar

wonder when pakistan will disown these fanatics - little hitlers - now I know why Indians fear the muj (I guess its a vision of what will happen if they the muslims become the dominant majority)

A quote begin{

The new Taleban decree requires Hindu women have to wear a yellow cloth and a Hindu household to hang a two-metre yellow cloth outside for easy identity.

The decree prohibits Hindus and Muslims from living in the same house, bars Hindus from constructing new prayer houses or places of worship and asks Hindu men to desist from wearing turbans.

}endquote

read more at

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/may/21tale.htm