The Chicken Hawks Of Pakistan

Feroz:

Can I have a word with the better half first?(…saira yaar kuch to restrain sikhao is banday ko:)….dura-cell battery ki tarah yeh bus likhta hay aur likhta hee chala jata hay!…:) ..)

If this stays in place for four weeks this may surpass…..oh no!

…ok, serious…:)

…what was that article 58(b)?…the Baton Boys should re-activate a version of 58-(b) and retire to their cosy war-rooms in the mess…albeit with one important proviso…they will have the power to DISMISS governments…but BARRED from assuming powers directly…(...and who will ensure that?...you may ask...to which I would shrug and look upwards?...)

…but don’t see it happening…most obviously…the lion has tasted blood…(yeah, easier to conqueror civilians, the perks etc.etc.:)… […and before this earns a rebuke from umairr …whatever monicker you are using these days…yaar yeh aapas ki baat hay…sanjeedgi say mut laina…waisay bhee in baataouN ko who sunntay kahaaN haiN:)…]

…and more seriously…while the stern has just emerged above the waters…in the formal dining room the Khakhis are discussing the menu for the Relief Ball…

rgds,

t

Finally, someone calls a spade a spade. Good work. I can see that Umairr fellow trembling in his feet as he reads this.

Now if only kids like ylh and Aisha Faisha could understand this too - what I mean is that people from a country with a military dictatorship look ridiculous challenging a functional democracy (like India) no matter how many other problems that country may have.

FR Khan

Your article belongs to the National Enquirer or the dustbin..... only a sorry excuse of an editor would let this go through:

[``In a political sense, Pakistan has fractured along sectarian and ethnic lines with the provinces of Pakistan unwilling to exist within a federal confederation. The only binding authority, which has managed to keep the provinces of Pakistan in the semblance of a nation-state, are the armed forces of Pakistan.``]

The provinces have whispered in your ear I suppose? What is the basis of this sweeping pronouncement? The provinces voting pattern in `88, 90, 93, 96??? Just how do you assume that the provinces want this or that? WTF is a ``federal confederation``?

[``the present leadership of the Pakistani army is the last of the western inclined class of officers. After them next tier of general rank officers will be Islamic in their political convictions. ``]

Why? Just because they joined the army during Zia owl Haq`s rule you deduce that ALL or a majority of them will have Islamic political leanings. Its a given that Islamic political convictions are inherently bad. right?

[``To rein in these groups is a task for the Pakistani armed forces and given the differing perceptional rifts present in the Pakistan army, between the Islamists and the secularists, there is a real danger of a civil war igniting in Pakistan over this issue.``]

You keep on harping on Islamist vs. secularist conflict in Pakistan army and in the Pakistani society. Where is the proof of that such a rift exists? Who are the secularists in Pakistan... the 35 people who write for Friday Times and the 25 people who read it?

OK. I can`t read this drivel anymore. In conclusion all I can say is that the writer is a phsychotic dumbass for penning his hallucinations.

Such a long article!!!!!!

F.R.K:
What does India do in the mean time?
This is its BEST opportunity to come out on top
in Kashmir with a negotiated settlement!
I have to disagree that time is on its side and
that it can find refuge in delay.
On the Pak Army, who really knows what they are
really up to. We mere mortal supporters
of ``Corrupt and thieving`` democracy cannot stand
up and be counted anymore. Best of luck to the
Ghazis etc. etc.

Ras

RE: Reply #: 4 ali1

FR Khan

`` You keep on harping on Islamist vs. secularist conflict in Pakistan army and in the Pakistani society. Where is the proof of that such a rift exists? Who are the secularists in Pakistan... the 35 people who write for Friday Times and the 25 people who read it? `

It is 95% of the Pakistani electorate that has rejected outright the agendas of the Islamist parties in every election and yet has to watch helplessly as these parties wreak havoc in the peoples` name.

tvarad

A very well written article about Kashmir and its role in the future relations between Pakistan and India. Military by its nature can not find elegant solutions that can change the history. This work has to be done historians, diplomats, politicians and statesmen who can look into far reaching implications of an action.

A lot more work need to be done to understand the motivation of Talibans, Jehadi organizations, liberal elements in the army and general public.

I believe that isolation, sanctions, trade cut offs have never solved any problems. These actions have always created desperation and people without hope have taken the extreme actions.

Afghan people have suffered for many years. Instead of helping Afghan people and gradually

developing a dialogue with Talibans, the west has slapped sanctions as if to punish a kid. Similarly, India instead of finding a democratic solution has used a heavy handed approach with great loss of human lives and property.

I believe that a solution lies in helping Pakistan and Afghanistan to come out of the economic problems. If Pakistan goes bankcrupt, then the general public has no other hope and will become Jehadi, fundamentalists or Talibans.

Excellent effort Feroz. I hope to read it more carefully later in the evening. All I have to say right now is that a peace initiative must precede other issues if Pakistan wants their cases about Kashmir or Indian Muslims to be taken seriously. An enemy only takes opponents demands seriously after being defeated or surrendered. That possibility does not exist now and not likely to exist in forseeable future, vis-a-vis India.

I question your point on making a quadrilateral issue of what really is a bilateral issue, okay trilateral if you count in the Kashmiris. What does China have to do with the Kashmir situation? This is essentially a no-starter. If at all, the Chinese may have to give back some of the land they`ve taken north of Ladakh and I believe some that they quietly took over from the Pakistanis.

RSaxena Reply # 2

(Now if only kids like ylh and Aisha Faisha could understand this too - what I mean is that people from a country with a military dictatorship look ridiculous challenging a functional democracy (like India) no matter how many other problems that country may have. )

Now if only nasty adults like you would stop with the patronizing...

A good article. A lot of assumptions.

One of my humble suggestion for my Pakistan brothers/sisters to avoid military intervention in governments is to do the following: Try this, it will work.

1. Put in place in the constitution that every Pakistani has to serve atleast 2 years of mandatory military service, I mean both men and women.

2. Put in place in the constitution that every elected person should have served in the military.

what it does is institutionalize the military in govt policy making and secondly there is no longer US vs THEM friction between the armed forces and the citizenery. Every citizen knows that they have served in the military and they are no longer inferior in the mind-set.

I think your present CE deserves atleast 10+ years to stabilize the country. He seems geniune atleast with regards to Pakistan`s future, if not towards India. If it took Gen Zia 10+ years to radicalize the country`s instutitions, it will take similar amount of time to undo and instill a new kind of thinking. As they say, it takes 21 days to form a habit. I want to add to this and say, it takes a generation to form an attitude. A generation to me is 10+ years. Give Mr. Pervez Musharraf a break.

With all the hoopla surrounding the Kashmir situation, I have not seen any of the mujahid group/or the institutions talk about the

``Kashmir`` that is held by CHINA. If indeed the Kashmir people have to decide their own fate as per these various groups, then why do they not talk about the Kashmir held by China. And if Kashmir was given away to China by Pakistan under a treaty, then did anyone get permission from the Kashmiri people? This arguement is sufficient to indicate that Pakistan is behind the groups in Kashmir. And if indeed if Pakistan is only giving moral support, then how come they are not giving moral support to Tibet held by China and for that matter, Taiwan.

As for India, democratic institutions are well entrenched. The system as damned as may be, works. India is extremely chaotic but it is institutional chaos. Everything is slow but it goes forward, thanks to a relatively free press and media and people`s attitude.

And finally, promote your movie industry. One of the big PRs for India is our movie industry. Do not stiffle them. Let all the creative juice flow.

They will be better ambassadors to Pakistan. And it costs nothing.

Thanks.

FRK:

You also could have mentioned that the Taliban have succeed in antagonising the Americans, Russians, EU, Japanese (and the rest of SE Asia due to Bamiyan), Chinese, Iranians and Indians. Having experienced this monster, I believe that the world has very little stomach for a replication of the Taliban experiment in Kashmir. Thus, Pakistan`s modus operandi will likely continue to chip away at the merits of its objectives in Kashmir.

heres something for you humourless people...an editorial....read it makes interesting reading...yeah RAS.... there appears to be a raasaleela in the offing (if you are not familiar with raasaleela ask JAY)

Pervez Playback

India and Pakistan may be divided by a common border but their leaders appear to share a common passion. Pakistan`s Pervez Musharraf is younger than India`s Atal Behari Vajpayee but he has gone on record in an interview to Dubai`s Khaleej Times that he prefers old Indian songs to the new ones which he finds ``very stupid and silly``. The interview does not specifically mention whether Musharraf preferred the graceful 1970s `Inhi logon ne le li na dupatta mera` from Pakeezah to the shriller 1990s `Choli ke peeche kya hai?` from Khalnayak. Or whether Musharraf listened to 1954 film songs espousing people`s power like John Chacha`s Boot Polish query of `Nanhe munhe bachche, teri mutthi mein kya hai`. To which the children`s response is Mutthi mein hai taqdeer hamari... General Musharraf would perhaps identify more with the soldier`s dilemma `Kabhi khud pe, kabhi halat pe rona aya` as sung in Hum Dono rather than with songs from 1964 films like Leader where the power flows harmonically from the people and not from the barrel of a gun. But, then, the old songs take the listener back to an era where life`s truths can be seen in black and white, whether it is the lilting `Bachpan ke din` sung by Noorjehan who migrated to the other side of the border or `Bhooli hui yaadon` by Mukesh in the early `60s. Which would be the time Musharraf could have been tuning in to Binaca Geet Mala, compered on Radio Ceylon by the inimitable Ameen Sayani at a time when subcontinental culture had not yet been given a SAARC framework and only music had a cross-border connotation. The older songs are free of queries of the kind which Musharraf would have found uncomfortable. For example, 1980s film songs like `Kya hua tera wada?` could remind him of the promises made over the last 17 months to return Pakistan to democratic rule. However, Musharraf saying that he likes the old Indian songs could augur well both for Pakistan and for its relations with India. Musharraf has demonstrated that he is not an Aurangzeb who wanted music to be buried so deep that it could never be heard again. Musharraf favouring the old Hindi songs indicates that he is aware of the genre being a fusion created by talents from different communities united by an abiding love for music. Which is what gave their songs that eternal appeal.

Its really hard to read such a long article.

Interesting article, as usual. Too long (as usual :-)), but interesting just the same.

Your insights into certain areas of Pakistan`s foreign policies are always educational and original. Your analysis of the Pakistan military, as a Pakistani civilian who actually has knowledge of the military (a rare commidity), always present a fresh prespective on the subject.

One area which does somewhat undermine your article, in my opinion, has been hit upon by ali1 in in Reply #4. I don`t agree with his first paragraph mentioning the dustbin. But I would have to agree with some of his other points. I think you have based your article on some sweeping assumptions, which perhaps cannot be backed up by solid facts:

``In a political sense, Pakistan has fractured along sectarian and ethnic lines with the provinces of Pakistan unwilling to exist within a federal confederation.``

I don`t think the provinces in Pakistan are unwilling to exist within the federation. And barring the extremist sectarian parties (with no vote base), the Sunnis and Shias of Pakistan want to live together. Infact, since the peak of 1971, the idea of separatism in Pakistan has decreased, and not increased. The regional political parties, apart from MQM and ANP (which usually allies with PML), have been sidelined in favor of national parties like PPP and PML. Even the MQM has greatly watered down its Singapore and Jinnahabad ideas, realizing that the people of Karachi do not want to separate from Pakistan. The current Pakistani regime, under Muhajir leadership, will furthur damage the separatists amongst the MQM.

Ironically, it is actually India which has stated that if Kashmir becomes independent, it will set off a wave of independence movements in India. Due to this, according to the Indian leadership, it cannot let Kashmir secede, even if it wants to. Added to this is the fact that regional parties now enjoy a great deal of popularity in India.

``the present leadership of the Pakistani army is the last of the western inclined class of officers. After them next tier of general rank officers will be Islamic in their political convictions.``

I have heard and read this a lot. But never experienced it practically, while I was in the military. The number of, ``religiously oriented`` officers has definitely increased in the Pakistan military, as compared to the early days. However, at least amongst my coursemates and colleagues(all Majors now), the last thing I was worried about was religious extremism. There were some, ``Maulvis.`` However, apart from them, I would have to say I was one of the more conservative amongst my group. So unless, things have changed drastically in the past 7 to 8 years, I don`t think the painting of the Pakistani military as solely a religiously motivated group is accurate. It is far more secular than the general Pakistani society, at all levels. And there is nothing wrong with being religiously motivated. It only becomes dangerous, if it is not accompanied with education. And the religiously motivated in the military are educated enough to not become extremists.

Ironically (once again), India, after being a large secular democracy, is now sitting on a potential powder keg of being led by a religiously extremist (though constitutionally secular) party. On the whole, the religious influence, extremisms and motiviations of the BJP are far higher than those of the Pakistan military and the Pakistani electable politicable parties (PML, PPP, MQM, ANP, TI).

I think Pakistan is now finally begining to bring its Kashmir policies in line with reality. Pakistan has now (finally) openly declared, through its foreign office, that it no longer has any territorial ambitions over Kashmir, and is willing to accept any situation acceptable to the Kashmiris.

One important factor that you did not cover in detail is basically the crux of this whole problem, i.e. the uprising of the Kashmiris. This is what has forced India to the negotiating table. Before this uprising, Pakistan, despite being in the good books of the USA and despite having much higher economic growth rates than India, was unable to do anything in Kashmir. This uprising is actually India`s achilles heel in Kashmir. If India wants to become a global player economically, sooner or later, the eyes of the world will fall on the human rights abuses in Kashmir (and the fact that AI has been banned there since 1992). So India cannot continue its suppression there forever.

On the economic side, you are correct in stating that the USA will attempt to tilt in favor of India, as much as it can. Due to this, Pakistan on its part, needs to straighten out its economy. If it can do that, then alongwith the uprising in Kashmir, the threat of nuclear war, and the desire of India to avoid the wrath of the international human rights groups (China is a good example of the influence of such groups), I think, sooner or later, India will be forced to define some kind of and endgame and solution to Kashmir. It cannot continue with the status quo forever.

Until that time, I think Pakistan should maintain the status quo, stop thinking of military solutions to Kashmir (those haven`t worked and will not work in the future), continue to request India to talk at anytime and any place (this has actually put India on the backfoot now), and take any appropriate steps (like sigining CTBT, if appropriate) to re-build its economy.

Overall a good article, though some assumptions seemed somewhat fuzzy.

Re: Romair #16

``This is what has forced India to the negotiating table``

What negotiating table? Who is negotiating?