Across the River

Oops.. Did it again!!

``I was not suggesting that Christians (and Hindus) in non-urban areas are treated very badly -- inhumanly.`` should have read...

``I was not suggesting... are NOT treated very badly..``

Thanks Eklavya!

Apparition, to satisfy your curiosity a little...

hmmm.. What was growing up like? lemme see... growth spurts at 4, 9 and 14... zits and facial hair at 16... the usual, y`know... :)

But seriously? Growing up is always fun so long as you having loving family and good friends... Only later do you usually learn how the subtle dicrimination has affteced your outlook on life.

But Pak religious minorities have usually to worry more about class-related injustice than -religious.

rgds.

PM # 36

``Well..don`t just get sad; get mad... and use that anger to drive you into motion. If the enlightened don`t teach the unenelightened, who will?``

Quotation of the week! Very very well said, Patrick.

Apparition #35:

``Being a maseeh who grew up in Pakistan you probably know a lot more about muslim christian relations than I do (even though you were raised in metropolitan Karachi while I grew up all over the country).``

I was not suggesting that Christians (and Hindus) in non-urban areas are treated very badly -- inhumanly. But then, it is not clear how much of that is religious bigotry and how much just plain ol fashioned class injustice.

``It is just that it makes me sad that a Muslim society that is supposed to accept, respect and protect the minorities has chosen to treat them otherwise.``

Well... don`t just get sad; get mad... and use that anger to drive you into motion. If the enlightened don`t teach the unenelightened, who will?

rgds,

PM

Re PM # 34

Being a maseeh who grew up in Pakistan you probably know a lot more about muslim christian relations than I do (even though you were raised in metropolitan Karachi while I grew up all over the country).

It is just that it makes me sad that a Muslim society that is supposed to accept, respect and protect the minorities has chosen to treat them otherwise.

As for my dismissing your earlier post ...... oops :)

P.S just out of curiosity ..... what was growing up like ??????

re. Apparition #33

``Popular words to refer to the Christian community in Pakistan are ‘chooray’ and ‘Kurruntay’. A large number of households employ Christian servants and they might as well be called the untouchables.``

See, here`s a seeming contradiction: Christians are given those appellations by a growing number of Muslim ignorami, brought up on the increasingly bigoted Juma khutba. And yet, open any classified section of an urban newspaper and you`ll see phrases like ``Christian Preferred``, be it for nanny, private tutor or nurse. Look at the class make-up of any queue outside Christians schools on Admissions Day, and again you get a picture that belies any true disdain for Christians per se.

Now it is quite possible that, being the tradtitional hypocrites we are as a people, most Muslims just block out the fact that these schools are actually run by those very folks they

are wont to label with (supposedly) demeaning names. (Not that Chritians don`t have some equally choice, equally peurile, names for Muslims, either). Yet, in my experience in Metropolitan Karachi, I have found that, by and large, Muslims do not disdain Christians as a class (--moral superiority another matter). There are those who, believing all Christians to belong to the `servant and janitor` class, treat and label them disgracefully.

Now I would be only too happy to assist you in your self-flagellation except for the fact that I`ve known upper-class Christians to treat their `step-brothers and -sisters` in the same shameful way. (In all fairness, though, it must be said that that has been changing, as the Christian community in Pakistan is shaking off its own Caste consciousness and embracing egalitarianism).

As an aside, I have also had Hindu land-owning friends who kept Hindu servants and field workers. There was no evidence that these workers were being treated any better under Hindu masters (to call a spade a spade) than under anyone else.

.....

As for your dismissing my statement that separate crockery is kept for servants on the pretext of hygeiene concerns, perhaps Merriam Webster will be of some assistance :)

pretext: (noun) : a purpose or motive alleged or an appearance assumed in order to cloak the real intention or state of affairs

regards,

PM

(that`s Patrick Masih, just in case you weren`t aware)

Re Scout # 25

I honestly do not believe that I am being too harsh.

Popular words to refer to the Christian community in Pakistan are ‘chooray’ and ‘Kurruntay’. A large number of households employ Christian servants and they might as well be called the untouchables.

Maybe you have been away too long or maybe it is how each of us defines an average Pakistani.

Re PM # 27

‘Under the pretext of hygiene concern’ .............Give me a break.

Re Rsaxena

You seem to have quite a reputation here. I myself was very surprised when not only could I relate to Hindus but to my horror like them as well. But why do we least expect it ? BTW Good luck with the neighbors.

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Pervez

``But i want to do something with my life.Lot more than just rasing kids and giving them good education and seeing them through to success.Which by the way I have done. I can not accept the life the way it is.But what should and what can I do?.Now suddenly i feel very poor.``

Guilt, what for and why for?? I think you are being a bit too hard on yourself. Empty nest syndrome - if that is what this is - isnt easy to deal with for both parents and children but you need to give yourself a BIG break. You deserve it!!!! And as I tell my parents - lighten up please and learn to have some fun the rest will fall into place : )

aicha

``Still, I would agree with Akash, on that as many people as possible should be sold the ideas as put forward in the article reprinted in #17.

If this amounts too untruthfulness, well, can we call it a Noble Lie? Wouldn`t the end justify the means??``

PM #22, Akash #17:

An idle question, but who is the article aimed at?

Please help me understand - `has been a clamour for the Indianisation of Islam - based on the wrong premise that Islam and Hinduism are incompatible and so cannot co-exist.` Thanks.

Where are KRashid, Urstruly and a host of other usual Pakistani suspects? Why aren`t they out here decrying a Brahmin conspiracy to brainwash the Muslim slum-dwellers so that they and the Hindu banias can exploit the slum-dwellers?

How I wish the author had not mentioned her heritage. Many Pakistanis would not have guessed Tewari to be a Brahmin surname. And the irony would be complete if Mr. Ramaswamy -- a South Indian as his name indicates -- turns out to be a Brahmin. What is he doing, working to improve the lives of Urdu-speaking Muslims in Bengali-speaking Calcutta, neither being his native language?

But that is the beauty of living in a multi-cultural society. When you live, work, and eat with people different from you, you start peeling away the myths that you might have learnt subconsciously. You understand that everybody is first a human being and then comes the rest of the labels: Bengali/Bihari/Tamil, Hindu/Muslim, Indian/Pakistani/Bangladeshi, wealthy/poor, industrious/shiftless/unmotivated....

The Ramaswamys, the Seemas, the Prodyuts -- they will all make a dent, albeit a small one, in the nexus of grinding poverty and helplessness that the slum-dwellers face daily. Armchair critics such as the eminent journalist who shall remain nameless will analyze how the money spent by the government was not allocated to the last little penny in proportion to group representation in the total population and think that they have conclusively proved a conspiracy.

Do something. If you can`t walk the slums of Howrah or of Karachi because your career cannot be interrupted, write a check. The money will go not into the pockets of the Ramaswamys but to buy books and pencils for the children, for a sewing machine so that an uneducated woman can earn a living as a seamstress and feed her children, perhaps to pay off the loan sharks who seem to hold these people in slavery for generations.

Give till you can give no more.

And then, give some more.

It is the least you can do for your fellow humans.

Re: PM

``Besides, there are Christians, Muslims and Hindus I know in Pakistan who keep separate glasses and plates for their servants.``

My 81-year-old grandmother in India used to do the same. I managed to convince her to stop but wasn`t as successful with the middle-aged couple living next door. I guess it comes down to the quality of one`s education. My grandmother could be reasoned with - the other 2 were not the brightest bulbs on the Christmas tree (they both seem to have paid their way into med school.)

Scout, re. #25

``...this is not the general attitude of the average Pakistani...``

Sahih baat hai, behn.

Indeed, I`ve *heard * about Muslims who wouldn`t eat or dink out of dishes used by Christians and Hindus. Never met one, though! Well... a couple, maybe, but they were from Pathan colony, and probably knew as little about Islam as Mr Farrakahn. :-)

Besides, there are Christians, Muslims and Hindus I know in Pakistan who keep separate glasses and plates for their servants -- under the pretext of hygeine concerns!

rgds,

PM

Re: Apparition

``Here in the US (where i have recently moved) i for the first time had close interaction with christians, jews and hindus. I was treated with so much warmth and respect that within days i realized how shallow i really was.``

That`s the beauty of this country. I didn`t grow up hating anyone but I expected Pakistanis to hate me...now a couple of my best friends are Pakistani (shocking as it may sound to those who have seen me sling mud on Chowk). You end up having a lot in common with people you least expect. One of my friends is a recently married Pakistani colleague. She and I didn`t really speak much at first but after we did, surprisingly we became really good friends.

Europe - especially the Netherlands - is even better in this regard. It really opens your eyes.

Apparition #23, `` I remember a time in college when i refused to drink water out of a glass that a christian girl had used first and this is the general attitude of an average pakistani muslim towards non muslims.``

whoaaa, wait a minute? this is NOT the general attitude of an average pakistani, maybe an idiotic bigot/fundo pakistani but not the ``average`` pakistani.

i think u`re being too harsh.

Studebaker, that was a sensible post, more like coming from a neurologist. Actually, as you mention, in India neither Hindu nor Muslim, or Christian can live a singular religious life since the paths cross at every intersection. Young Indians are realizing it more than ever.

All my life i had hated hindus and jews, having various family members in the military probably had a lot to do with it.It is amazing how well we are brain washed.

I remember a time in college when i refused to drink water out of a glass that a christian girl had used first and this is the general attitude of an average pakistani muslim towards non muslims.

Here in the US (where i have recently moved) i for the first time had close interaction with christians, jews and hindus. I was treated with so much warmth and respect that within days i realized how shallow i really was.

People say that this ia a simple truth then why did it take me 22 years to see it ???