The Winds of Change

PM

S.A. and UAE offered and supplied both money and weapons. I know you are not aware, but I am, that many Gulf countries support US or Western policies in places where it would be politically harmful for the US to intervene directly.

Russia? - I not sure what you mean. That is one country that is totally in denial over Islam or Muslims. (Witness Chechnya) My friends who served in the Army inmeeiately after the dissolution of USSR, say to me that recruits were told that the new enemy was Islam.

Explain Position on West? - I`m not sure exactly what position - but here goes:

The West and UN had realized that the daily outrages in Bosnia was having a very negative impact on Muslims who had seem these images. I believe it was the first, not I`m sure not the last, time Muslims were in concentration camps.

Public Opinion in Europe would not tolerate a Muslim armed force within Europe, even as part of an interventionist alliance. Even today, unknown to but a handful, credits and support for Western forces in the balkans flows daily from rich Gulf states.

You seem to suggest that Muslims must loose both ways - be damned if they are a part of an alliance or be damned if they are not.

My personal view is that once Islamia saw that the West was divided and could not effectively counter the Serbs, Islamia should have moved on several levels - it could have down graded relations - down graded commercial relations, support Mujahideed. Most governments in Muslim countries are weak, lack legitamacy in the eyes of their populace, precisely, for being too timid.

As for convincing others about how we can decrease the influence of Hard liners? the recent elections in Iran would suggest a call among Muslim youth for rational government and society. You may find it interesting that Mr. Khatami`s area of study within islamic studies, was ijtehad.

But - time will tell.

hobbyty #394:

``So I suppose it can be said that we are all ``defensive`` when it comes to a percieved attack on those elements which we hold as core or essential about who we are? It`s not just Muslims, then who tend to get defensive about Islam``

Actually, no, it can`t be said. Not unless you can explain why, in your earlier statement, to which I reacted, and which I reproduce below, you leave out, say Saudi Arabia, Russia, or the UAE. Stop kiddin yourself. You still see the civilizational divide along religious lines. You could, of course, prove me wrong by simply explaining why Russia, S.A, or the U.A.E.

hobbyty #387: ``Remember the daily butchering of Bosians, while armed forces from frane, England, Germany, Holland and the US stoodby until it was no longer possible to hide?``

[``When it comes to international intervention, we demand West take responsibility...`` No, Not I.]

So, there! One more reason for you to clarify your earlier statement about `Western countries.

``The radical secular liberals of West and their camp followers, do want want a more interventionist role for Islamia. Why have you not heard that Jehad is now Bad, evil, ugly.``

(I take it you intended ``not`` to be between ``do`` and ``want`` up there, and a comma after ``why``, right?).. Well, hobbyty, not that I support all the `just wars` of the Americans, but given what the world sees of (extreme) Islam, is it any wonder that *any * role for Islamia should be viewed with alarm? To you (and me) the Taliban, the Hamas, The FIS, the Abu-whatevers are extremists... But can you really expect others to see it that way? Anyway, good luck in your dream of getting together the best Muslim minds for Ijtehad, though, frankly, I have to wonder how a system premissed on a belief in God`s own authority, and yet, to hear it from the progressives, open to to so wide interpretations, can succeed in reaching consensus, and keep the extremisits in check. But good luck all the same. I really do wish to see the day you meet with success. I do have great respect for the core spirit of Islam.

[That`s right if you are a Catholic, consider, ``Just War`` and indeed a traditional religion based morality and ethics is what they really oppose.]

Their just wars are not premissed solely on any (one) religion`s edicts or ideology. They`ve learnt the danger of going down that road. You seem to be suggesting we learn it the hard way too.

``But I digress and if you are interested, please review my rather lenghty converstaions with Sadna. I wish others had joined in to give a rounded balance to that converstion.``

hobbyty, I recall responding to your intial post on Ijtehad/ijtema postively, concuring that ``religion will always have to factor into politics in the Pakistan.``, or something to taht effect. I do recall being impressed by that post from you, and could`ve sworn that I registered my positivity. that was, in fact, why I later registered `disappointment` when you seemingly changed course.

My only `issue` with you was my perception of your disproportionate distrust of the `others` that i believe to be rooted in good ol fashioned Pak Muslim defensiveness that sees malice where there is none.

I could be naive and wrong :) but perhaps you will not keep that from considering the possibility.

rgds, and hope to see a revival of the ijtehad on Ijtehad :)

PM

PM

Recall that Muslim countries had offered to send troops to Bosnia. Recall also that even NATO member Turkiye`s offer to send troops was rejected by Non-Mulsim majority Europe. It was thought that the idea will not have support among Europeans (what with Muslim Turkiye send troops to protect Muslim Bosnians) but it was acceptable to have Russian troops (Orthodox but still within the Christian tradition) -

Anyway - forgiven - but not forgetten. We both know it is going to happen again and again.

PM

``Ahh, yes, Blame the Christian countires...`` So I suppose it can be said that we are all ``defensive`` when it comes to a percieved attack on those elements which we hold as core or essential about who we are? It`s not just Muslims, then who tend to get defensive about Islam. In any case,, I hope you will continue to see those of us who are proud to be Muslims, who identify with Muslims, as persons.

``When it comes to international intervention, we demand West take responsibility...`` No, Not I.

I support a more interventionist role for Islamia. The radical secular liberals of West and their camp followers, do want want a more interventionist role for Islamia. Why have you not heard that Jehad is now Bad, evil, ugly. That`s right if you are a Catholic, consider, ``Just War`` and indeed a traditional religion based morality and ethics is what they really oppose. But I digress and if you are interested, please review my rather lenghty converstaions with Sadna. I wish others had joined in to give a rounded balance to that converstion.

Human rights in Pakistan or generally within Islamia - I do so wish you had participated in the conversation I mentioned above. Who can doubt that we are infliceted with a pterribel human rights situation in Pakistan and in Islamia in general. All persons and groups should be open to participate and offer solutions in this regards. But we both know, that so many on these boards only use it as an opportunity to attack Pakistan. Pakistan will not dissolve under these attacks, and it`s not that what they say is not in whole or in measure not true; it is malicious and unconstructive.

Is it true that to the extent that problems exist within Pakistan and to the extent of our inablity to deal with them effectively, it reflects not only on Pakistan, but within Islamia. Yes, granted. Yes granted, we stand naked before all. (if you get a chance to review my conversations with Sadna and eklavya with regard to ijtehad - please do avail yourself and comment)

Urstruly,

Thank you for that info. The point, however, was about the contradiction in expecting the West to `interfee` in some matters and stay out of others, as is convenient/comfortable to us.

PM

The very first to help Bosnians with weapons and life sustaining aid was Indonesia. Then came Iran and Hizbullah to help and give military training. Pakistan supplied weapons through Iran. That is when Europeans realized that the Crescent was rigt at their doorsteps. Please at least read Time or something before commenting.

hobbyty, re. #387

``Many suggest that our (Muslims from Pakistan) response to what we think is the word of GOD, should be like that of Western or wanna be Western persons - I should like to ask why is it inappropriate for us to have a different response to what we consider inappropriate?``

You may choose whatever response you consider appropriate. But then you have to face the questions raised by your ascribing to those positions-- as relating to human rights` issues. You cannot choose to respond as, say, a fundamentalist (literal, not pejorative sense) and expect not to have the McGuptas and Sadhana`s, and indeed the PMs, on the site to not raise questions about human rights in Pakistan. Doesn`t square! There is a point beyond which issues cease to be merely `internal` affairs.

``Constitutional problems - No, again, I believe you are mistaken when you find me supporting Mr. General Musharraf. You are seeing this support out of context and I think it unfair. ``

You`ve got me pegged down wrong here, bro. I support Mushy`s takeover.

``Many persons argue that minorities fair better in the West as compared with europe or the US - It is a fact that governments in Europe and the US have greater resources - it would be a lie to suggest that minorites don`t face problems in Europe and USA.``

It would indeed be a lie. It would be equally disingenuous to suggest that the better treatment of Minorities in Europe and US has only to do with `greater resources` and not with ideology and culture.

`` Remember the daily butchering of Bosians, while armed forces from frane, England, Germany, Holland and the US stoodby until it was no longer possible to hide?``

Ahh yes, blame the Christians states. What exactly were the Saudis, Irani, Iraqis, Afghanis, Malaysians and Pakistanis doing while Muslims were being slaughtered? BUt no, when it somes to international interevention, we demand the West take take responsibility, but when it comes to human rights` in our own nations, we`d rather not be ``dictated to`` by them. We of course have our own responses, and have no need for their `inappropriate ones``. Yeah, eat your cake and have it too.

``We have the ability to create reality with our words. Should we then not choose and weigh carefully what we say - we can be constructive with as much energy as be can be negative. ``

Yes, and it is hoped you will bear that in mind when asking other `purely hypothetical questions`, especially ones as pointed as to (`hypothetoially`, of course) give voice to the Resident Bigot`s fears.

``Do we want it to be a venue for cyber warriors? Propagandists? - we can`t avoid them, but we can marginalize them with the persuasion of argument. ``

Now you`re talking! Hopefully we will see some persuasive arguments from now on.

rgds,

PM

Karakorum

The open of my post in question the ``Unite and a spectre...`` is a borrowed literary device. I am sorry it caused grief, it`s a literary device, that too borrowed. I count myself among those who support a reconciliation - the question was meant to be a survey:

If this new chapter in our relations with India is to last. it must have legs. The question was posed to elicit responses that we could fashion into a concensus.

Again, I`m really sorry if have misunderstood the post. The literary device is borrowed from Marx`s manifesto. I`m amazed it caused the kind of misunderstanding it did. But do feel free to aswer ``what are common interest between Pakistan and India?``

PM, I now know what you mean..
Well filmi ishtyle
``Kis kis ka moo`nh band karogey..
Mujhe apney haal pe chod do..``
(followed by tears and a soulful song)
Though tragedy queens in Hindi movies seem to have cheered up these days due to the absolute necessity of wearing designer clothing..

UrstulyDemented #384

Good to see you getting back a hint of a sense of humour!

Now don`t forget your evening pills.

Dost Mittar

I have no problem with any identity or number of identities a person wants to choose for themselves.

I think it would be unfair to get entrpreneurs involved without justifing (profits) the project. Even though I am convinced these kinds of technology are our future.

PM

So I suppose the hypothetical question about propaganda and suspicion was completely without implication/insinuation...what was your point...``

Reread may post - it is a question and a warning - Is chowk a venue for propaganda? ``If`` it is, ``then`` - would...

It`s implication is ``don`t make Chowk a venue for propaganda`` - I don`t know if you followed any of my conversation with Sadna - through out, what I thought was an exploration of ideas - her posts are a series of attacks - as if she only absorbed the points so she can fashion, yet another attack - Who wants that? I really thought that it was going to be a conversation - Whereby I may learn something about the ideas I presented and that it would give pause for thought.

Idenity - I had not read your posts on the Sarwari board. Trust me! I was responding from your previous post. Listen, I say to you that we have, can have, may have as many idenities as we choose. In my family we have Hyderabad Deccan, Calcutta, Sindi, Balouchi, Afghani, Iranian, American, English, Kashmiri, UP - Muslims, Catholics and Jews - I identity most important to me and many others is Pakistani.

Defensive about Islam - Yes, it is true. Certainly I am. Under the guise of Islamophobia, of constructive criticism, hate mongers have left their mark on the lives and property of many Muslims. Many suggest that our (Muslims from Pakistan) response to what we think is the word of GOD, should be like that of Western or wanna be Western persons - I should like to ask why is it inappropriate for us to have a different response to what we consider inappropriate?

Ugly truths - who would deny these? Using the ``ugly truths`` as a club against Pakistanis, is simply not on. These ugly truths can be challenged by being constructive. We all know these truths, what is the point of saying - we have bigotry in Pakistan, we have poor sanitation, we dont have... and our...stinks - without any constructive or indepth discussion as to the causes and how to fix these. Give up Islam and becoming Western`` - in the ``monkey see, Monkey do`` mode is not going to help us or anybody else.

Constitutional problems - No, again, I believe you are mistaken when you find me supporting Mr. General Musharraf. You are seeing this support out of context and I think it unfair. Name me a simgle ``Civilian`` politician of the calibre of Mr. General Musharraf? Name me one who has his intesinal fortitude? or his Patriotism? or his plain speaking? or the fact that his assest and income tax is available for all to see?

Is the fact that he is an army general good? Yes and No - good for the army, not good for the image of Pakistan. But who is to blame for that? The army or the ``steal as much as you and your supporters can`` civilian politicians?

Many persons argue that minorities fair better in the West as compared with europe or the US - It is a fact that governments in Europe and the US have greater resources - it would be a lie to suggest that minorites don`t face problems in Europe and USA. Remember the daily butchering of Bosians, while armed forces from frane, England, Germany, Holland and the US stoodby until it was no longer possible to hide?

````...and the word became flesh`` What we say, is a product of what we think. We have the ability to create reality with our words. Should we then not choose and weigh carefully what we say - we can be constructive with as much energy as be can be negative. What Chowk is today is our doing, we can make it whatever we want - Do we want it to be a venue for cyber warriors? Propagandists? - we can`t avoid them, but we can marginalize them with the persuasion of argument.

hobbyty:

``Chowkwalleh Unite! - A spectre is haunting the subcontinentent - the spectre of normal relation between Pakistan and India:

What are ``common interests`` between Pakistan and India?``

What is troubling/haunting you ? It certainly is not haunting the entire subcontin. Get some help fast, before your disease starts to spread. The disease which thinks that normalization of relations is a haunting spectre.

There are many common interests b/w India and Pakistan, like cricket, music, personalities, languages, ethnicities, business interests, peace interests etc. Interests, common or otherwise are there for those are creative and interested in reaching new understandings. Whether they be with India or with Mars.....

You on the other hand, need to get your fears aired and your disease addressed.

Peace.

dummm mussst qalander dharr raghrrraaaa

bhungee bol angraizee,khudd ko samjhay behad qabil

chursee sootay bhurr bhurr burrhkay,``bhungeejahil``

Unt sharaabi nushay mein aundha,angraizi ka shaaer

sonnet likh likh sumajh yeh baitha,poem uski Nobel

heroin aur cocain kaa rusiaa amreeka kaa lawyer

daakter hain pur goron ka gooo;Pakistan kay bismil

Likhain CHOWK pay apnee nazmein,mazmoon,aur fasana

khoob qalander cheez ho tumbhee,chhoro been bajana

dummmm mussst qalander dharrr rrrrragrrrraaaa

Chacha Sadna & Pervert Masih

Please have decency to atleast spell my name correctly. I hate it when people put an ``e`` in the Urstruly.

And I will not appreciate personal comments. We should address the issues on the plate here. Please show your maturity by not disfiguring someones name and calling names. You hear me? Chacha? pervert?

re hobbyty #380

At the risk of appearing to be `against` you and your stated objectives, I post this rejoinder...

You earlier ask: ``If it is a venue for the desemenation of propaganda, then, would Urstruely not be correct in viewing with suspiscion the authorship of posts and articles on these boards?``

and later: ``What about ``If`` and ``propaganda`` do you not understand? - Is Chowk such a place?``

So I suppose the `hypothetical` question about propaganda and suspicion was completely without any implication/insinuation-- just something you did to help us exercise our logical faculties, eh? Please let me know what your point was in posing such a question...

You continue ``A Seperate Pakistani identity - You and many others may not agree that such an identity exists or should exist. But would you deny those who think it does? Is a seperate identity just for Indians?``

Now, either your comprehension skills are wanting or you just don`t understand it when people don`t take black&white positions. On the `desi` board, I asked the question `What is wrong with having a South asian *and * a Pakistani identidy?`.. Your failure to comprehend is IMO indicative of the same lack of balance I accused you of in my earlier post.

You write: ``You say you are ``objective``, but it seems from those whom you have mentioned and identify with, that perhaps you may be more subjective.``

And pray tell, who are those you allege I identify with? Is the mere accpetance of good criticism from the `other` side an indication of my `identity`? Perhaps you need to read my posts on the other boards more diligently.

``Pakistan has problems, I don`t know how we can fix them by ridiculing them and those who have the courage to step forward to attempt fixing it.``

Please don`t delude yourself into imagining that anyone is ridiculing them. I dare you to pick out one post from an Indian that ridicules a proposed solution to a problem. You, like most of my compatriots, I`m afraid to say, don`t seem to get it.. Indians (barring Jay and RSaxena) start ridiculing/provoking us only when we, almost characteristically, define our problems in some relation to India (eg. `Desi-False Ideology`) or, also characteristically, get all defensive about Islam (which, given it`s track record in Pakistan, any human has the right to criticize, IMHO)

You continue: ``You are a Pakistani Christian? If you do have some religious training, you will recall ``spoke the word and the word became flesh``. I`m suggesting that we not engage in maximalist positions because none of us has clean hands.``

What you refer to as maximalist postions, I prefer to call recognition of unpleasant truths about ourselves. Of course, if it suits your own pulpit ministry to see only the `others` as provocateurs, then go right ahead... just don`t pretend to be objective. Perhaps you can explain the motive behind your hypothetical question while remembering the ``word became flesh`` maxim.

Hobbyty, please don`t misunderstand... I am very encouraged by your (and TAhmed`s) suggestions for social uplift in Pakistan, and wish you all the best. But, noble as they are, they are only limited in their scope so long as we have our political and constitutional quagmires and contradictions -- problems that you (or TAhmed :)) not only not address, but seem to get all defensive and whinny over when questioned about by those on the other side.

Finally, given your willingness to quote UrstrulyDemented, I take it you are totally unaware of his repeated charcterizations of Hindu/Indians as horrible freaks and evil beings. Or do you find those words not ``maximalist`` enough, coming from a Pakistani?

rgds,

PM

hobbyty - all in a days work - no harm done : )