Desi: The False Ideology

Acheron 1060

``Then again, Brahminism/ Hinduism teaches that since your state in this life is contingent upon what you did in the last one, there really isn`t any need to shower pity (or government money) on the poor and wretched. This is unlike Islam, where a poor tax is mandatory to help the downtrodden. Maybe that`s why Mother Theresa had so much work to do...``

I hope your hopes of Pakistan soon becoming a model state come true. But you know nothing about Hinduism.

Do you have any idea of the relative magnitudes of efforts by Indian and Pakistani governments for the upliftment of their poor since independence? Have you compared the number of scholarships actually offered to brilliant but poor young people in these two countries? Do you have anything like a conscious policy of reservations for the backward groups amongst you, or of monetary help to backward geographcial areas? Which country has tried to do more for the poorer farmers? For women`s education? For healthcare? For rural areas? If you are comparing, you must be fair.

YLH & hobbyty:

While headhunter`s post may have been a tad presumptious, I don`t see how you could not have seen that it ws post with anything but YLH`s interest firmly in mind (And just in case your wondering now, no, that wasn`t me!).

Yasser, since your 1056 had the rink of parting lines, let me offer some thoughts/advice of my own...

You have indeed pointed out some glaring misconceptions re. commonly held views on Jinnah and the reasons/ circumstances/ protagonists of partition.

You argued ably for case ably for the (original) vision of a secular Pakistan (the possibility of that happening now another matter).

You exhibited stamina and prolicifness that is probably making Sadna turn green with envy.

You made yourself an easy target for those who would want to shift from debating your arguments to deriding you. (Never you mind, though! Just learn)

You demonstrated passion and conviction that has probably had a certain someone wet his pants with excitement several times (though you unknowingly asked that he control his incontinence here).

You went overboard with the derision of Gandhi (btw, did u read pankaj`s posts on the man? Did it change your estimation of him any?)

You have (I think against your own perceptions) painted India as a failed democracy run by hindu zealots who perpetuate casteism religious persecution..

....

There`s more, but maybe we can keep it for later..

rgds,

PM

once again we see the great question evading trick done by ylh. but guess what....i`m gonna take upman`s advice (post 1052) and not bother ylh anymore.

as far as character assinations are concerned, i must confess that i have indulged in it in the past and i apologise for it. its something that can be avoided and should be avoided. none of us here know each other personally and hence we have no right to make judgements on other`s characters out here.

devkant.

With regards to several of the posts that have been made over the course of the last few days...

First of all, I see a trend of attacking YLH by method of character assasination rather than by what should be done if you want a legitimate argument (or if you even have one): attacking his issues. Even when issues have been responded to, they are responded by skirting the topics and then resorting to taking quotes of his out of context and blasting him on it.

Something people need to realise is that Islam, democracy and a secular government are three totally compatible things. Right now, Pakistan has two of them and is working on getting democracy back into its proper place but not a psuedo-democracy like during the NS period but a real working democracy with local participation in the elections and women and minorities involved as it should be. To echo what has been said before, for all of the so called ``fundamentalism`` that Pakistan has, she has still never had a fundamentalist government in power and the closest it came was during the Zia regime, but even he was a general not a mullah.

Further, Pakistan is taking a slight beating right now economically because it is still suffering from the fallout of the war with Afghanistan during the 1980`s. India may be doing better right now, but again we need to remember that India has a population over 5 times larger than Pakistans and so with considerably more money to dispose, there ought to be a much higher rate of PhD and engineering candidates coming out each year. Lets talk about something else, though, such as the agricultural ability to sustain a population that in 20 years will easily surpass China`s and be #1 in the world. Mind you, there are no large-scale efforts to reduce this population growth. Then again, Brahminism/ Hinduism teaches that since your state in this life is contingent upon what you did in the last one, there really isn`t any need to shower pity (or government money) on the poor and wretched. This is unlike Islam, where a poor tax is mandatory to help the downtrodden. Maybe that`s why Mother Theresa had so much work to do...

Pakistan has had a very rought first 50 years due to the constant meddling of outside powers and of an antagonistic neighbour to the east. Then again, the United States also had a rough first 50 years (actually, it had a rough first 80 years or so) and so there seems to be plenty of hope right now for the future. Having a very competent leader such as they do now, Pakistanis will manage to forge ahead and build the state up to become a model for all.

Latif Chappu

((And another thing.... purty please dont go get a life. What will chowk do if all of us had lives?))

thats so on the mark my heart is jumping and bumping

FARANGI_KUSH # 1056

...that was a pretty good one- honestly- as far as partisan poems go...and i`m sure you`ll get congratulatory posts from ylh & sarwari soon..

..esp. this was neat-

``Critters of the ghoulish night

Can only see upright

Hanging upside down``

..but this

``You two

my loved ones

who have been carrying on the beacon

handed over to you by those before you``

may have been stretching your poetic license a bit too far....i mean, with reference to the beacon handed down by ``those before you``...if it hadnt been a patriotic feel-good poem, it would have been supreme sarcasm!

Alas as usual Indians have made a fool of themselves and completely exposed their high minded ideals. When the future generations of chowk will look back at these interactions, I have total belief that they will not accord their decision in the favor of people like Latif Chappu, Upman7626 and Rsaxena...individuals who have started this terrible war of words and personal attacks.

A great book of wisdom said

``Turn away from the ignorant, their hearts are sealed``.

Looking back at the 1056 posts that have been posted so far, I can in good conscience say, that I have not stooped to the level of people like Latif Chappu, Rsaxena, and Upman7626, by making this a personal name calling match instead of an ideological discourse. Indeed, it is my conviction that future readers will accord their decision in my favor. Indeed, the Indian Creed of intolerance which led to the terrible massacres at the time of partition is what these offenders adhere too. We didnt make Pakistan to that ancient creed.

Farangi Kush,

I must take this opportunity to thank you at this juncture for your support. I believe that we have proved our point well. One can hardly argue the creation of Pakistan in wake of this display of fanatical bigotry and intolerance by the Indians on this board.

Inshallah, one day, we will make Pakistan a state free of this creed of intolerance, this cultural lag left behind from the days we were unfortunately bound in destiny with the Indians.

We will have a Pakistan where every citizen will be equal regardless of religion caste or creed, and Pakistan`s cornerstones will be the Universal and secular values of Equality and Social Justice, of which our glorious faith Islam is an embodiment of.

Long Live Pakistan :)

Lets get one thing straight. The vast majority of Pathans (Pakhtoons if you will, we don`t have Pashtoons; wrong dialect) in Pakistan don`t want and never wanted Pakhtunistan. This was/is a dream of the Afghans--especially the ruling family and even the Taliban--who were convinced that ALL pathans wanted to be united under Kabul`s rule. With the exceptions of some NWFP politicians (the ANP types) and some easily bribed Maliks in the tribal areas, no Pakistani Pathan ever listened to the Pakhtunistan propaganda nonsense spouted from Kabul. Look at how successful the ANP has been in changing the NWFP`s name to Paktunkhwa, widely ballyhooed as the first step to Pakhtunistan. No Pathans, not even the ones who voted for the ANP, really cared in the least about such meaningless symbols. The Pathans knew that they were better-off in Pakistan than they ever would be in Afghanistan.

So even if South Afghanistan comes into being, the danger is that it might want to join us, not that our Pathans will want to join them! I`m more concerned about the Muhajir`s ``Jinnahpur`` Plan or the Sindhi`s ``Sindhudesh`` than I am about Pakhtunistan!

Sorry, Indians, no joy for you here.

Latif Chappu #1051 81 bottles of beer on the wall

(ok i skipped a few...cant help it...i am only a treaty-busting lahore-accord-forgetting paki)

Latif Chappu #1051 Thank you! Thank you!! You did a pretty good job yourself. And never fear. I shall carry the torch forward while you take a breather.

Where were we..

Yes. 97 bottles of beer on the wall

(why the hell on the wall? why not kept cold in the fridge?)

imitation of Upman6767: these Pakis are still stuck on `distinct national identity` and imagined slights and enemies...why only yesterday I saw this Paki and he stuck his elbow in my rib while pretending to read the newspaper in the bus...oooooooh these guys...

YLH & sarwari

Soar higher & higher

the very ones trying to ridicule you

are in fact lifting you higher

Treat this as just fun & laughter

the joke is on those below you.

These bald,self-named eagles

Just try to understand them

maybe take some pity upon them

Torn asunder by partition of a territory

Cultures cleft-open

The sub-continental drift(an illusion?)

Seismically torn asunder

Epicentre half-a-world away

(Always the same,always the same)

Fissured brains,

Sutures pricey & far

Plus sanctions slapped upon

This high-tech stuff cannot be transferred

Lest human rights gets less violated.

These MIdnight Children,

Children?--thought only human babies are called so

These bats,hyenas,owls and other less or more

Critters of the ghoulish night

Can only see upright

Hanging upside down

Talk wise only

In an alien(but official) tongue

Can laugh out loud

If only not in happiness

You two

my loved ones

who have been carrying on the beacon

handed over to you by those before you

move on

shine on

right,left--but always forward

Never stumble or falter

because of the torrent above

or the tide below

of the droppings by these Midnight Critters.

wassalaam.

Re: Tahmed

96 bottles of beer on the wall.... sigh...

Re: Tahmed

97 bottles of beer on the wall. Hindoos smell - Ali1.

Re: Tahmed

98 bottles of beer on the wall. Hindoos drink urine - Urstruly.

Re: Tahmed

99 bottles of beer on the wall. Only good Indian is a dead Indian - YLH.

Re: Mahesh G

Pleasure`s mine.