White Charade

Mr. Urstruly,
I have never had much appreciation for you before the publication of this story. My previous impressions of you had been predominantly negative and I found our interacts to be exhausting.

Nevertheless, I really liked this article of yours. It was very well written and was thorough engrossing. I dont know what kind of person you are in real life, but if you think like the narrator of the story then hats off to you.

I dont know if you are putting yourself in the position of the narrator, but its as if the narrator does not bear any resemblance to the interactor named Urstruly, as I have experienced him before hand via his posts here on chowk.

It seems as if this story is written by someone with a broken heart. I pray that God may mend it for you and give you peace.

URstruly/AAmir,

{{Urstruly ,is right in his observation that ppl. who have almost everything ,find there life more meaning less than some one in pursuit of it.}}

I happen to agree with that, to a great extent btw:) Usually, people turn to philosophy when their stomachs are full. Also, people who have a strong faith (even when their stomachs are empty) tend to negotiate life`s hurdles better than people who dont. Of course, every ``rule`` has exceptions.

Genetically modified foods causing deviant behavior?!! I guess you cant prove it, just as much as I cant disprove it:) Man has been genetically modifying food ever since he`s stopped being a hunter/gatherer. Personally, I`m skeptical because deviant behavior has been going on even before this new technology. Incidentally, violent crime in the US is falling. The crime rates in London are overtaking NYC (2000 stats). Also, you & I are also eating this food (as we live in the same US). How come we arent going on a killing rampage?

Take this as a tongue-in-cheek analogy. A scientist put a frog on a table. He then made a loud noise next to the frog. The frog jumped in fear. The scientist then cut the frog`s legs. He then made another loud noise next to the frog. The frog remained motionless.

His conclusion:

If you cut a frogs legs; either

a) the frog becomes deaf..or

b) the frog loses fear..

take your pick:)..

Anarayan and others

Interesting discussion guys. Karma literally means ``deed or act,`` but more broadly describes the principle of cause and effect. Simply stated, karma is the law of action and reaction which governs consciousness. In metaphysical terms, it can be said that karma is the law that states that every mental, emotional and physical act, no matter how insignificant, is projected out into the psychic mind substance and eventually returns to the individual with equal impact. There is no need for a supervisor since it is a law of nature as perceived by the ancient rishis instead of being a ``tenet`` of a cult. It differs from the Islamic/Christian thought in the sense that no matter whether a person is devotee to a God or atheist, it does not discriminate. It is universal in the sense that it applies to all irrespective of one`s beliefs or faith. It does not bestow any preferential advantages over someone who say believes in Shiva against one who does not believe in Hinduism or any other path/religion. This is perhaps in line with the Upanishdic conception of God as ``Niraakar(shapeless/formless, Nirvikaar(perfect), Nirgun(lacking any physical/chemical properties)`` which is a sort of absolute reality pervading the universe. No definition can be given for this conception of God , hence the sages in Upanishadas try to convey their cenception by saying ,``Neti, Neti``, ie God is ``not this, not this``. This God is beyond sensory perception, neither a form of material nor energy, perhaps some sort of fundamental ``abstract natural reality``. The God by this definition, can not have any desire to be worshipped by humans, or any othre living form and hence he can not intervene in human acts. Law of Karma is only a manifestation of this all pervading ``reality``.

Sincerely

Anarayan and Urstruly

Now let me come to the question Urstruly asked:

`` And also what if a human reincarnates into an animal, like a donkey or a caterpiller then what is the ``expected good Karma`` that will help them re-incarnate into humans again. And how they will be taught to do good deeds. I am sure I am not the first to ask these questions.``

``

And also what if a human reincarnates into an animal, like a donkey or a caterpiller then what is the ``expected good Karma`` that will help them re-incarnate into humans again. And how they will be taught to do good deeds. I am sure I am not the first to ask these questions.``

I thought it is best if the answer is searched in the Upanishadas. The earliest mention is found in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad. ``A man becomes good by good works, evil by evil` (3. 2.13) and on death, like a caterpillar -or a grass leech - proceeding from one leaf to another, the soul (atman), having shaken off the body and freed itself from ignorance, presumably empirical life, makes a beginning on another body. As a goldsmith forms newer and fairer form from a rough nugget, so the soul fashions for itself another newer, fairer form (4. 4.4), whether it be of the Fathers, or the Gandharvas, or the gods, or Prajapati, or Brahman, or other living beings; just as man acts, just as he behaves, so will he be born. He who does good will be born good, he who does evil will be born evil: he becomes holy by holy deeds, evil by evil (Brahadaranyaka Upanishad 4. 4.2-6; 4. 3 33).

NB: Brahman or Brahm is the ``Niraakar, Nirvikar, Nirgun`` conception of God as discussed by me in the previous post.



According to one school of thought, when a human commits evils, a sort of opaque cover of ``ignorance(ajnan, maya)`` separates the indestructible soul ``atman`` from the realization of the ``reality/truth``. This soul, atman, then wanders through the other life forms of animal/plants etc. By doing good deeds or following `Dharma`(a code of universal good deeds like helping others etc) suited to its particular life form, the wall of ``ignorance`` separating atman from `Parmatma`(supreme reality) dissolves. When the effects of one`s deeds is experienced in full, the atman is purified and ready to go back into human form. And this cycle of rebirth goes on.

Sincerely

PS Any typos may be overlooked.

Anarayan and others

Interesting discussion guys. Karma literally means ``deed or act,`` but more broadly describes the principle of cause and effect. Simply stated, karma is the law of action and reaction which governs consciousness. In metaphysical terms, it can be said that karma is the law that states that every mental, emotional and physical act, no matter how insignificant, is projected out into the psychic mind substance and eventually returns to the individual with equal impact. There is no need for a supervisor since it is a law of nature as perceived by the ancient rishis instead of being a ``tenet`` of a cult. It differs from the Islamic/Christian thought in the sense that no matter whether a person is devotee to a God or atheist, it does not discriminate. It is universal in the sense that it applies to all irrespective of one`s beliefs or faith. It does not bestow any preferential advantages over someone who say believes in Shiva against one who does not believe in Hinduism or any other path/religion. This is perhaps in line with the Upanishdic conception of God as ``Niraakar(shapeless/formless, Nirvikaar(perfect), Nirgun(lacking any physical/chemical properties)`` which is a sort of absolute reality pervading the universe. No definition can be given for this conception of God , hence the sages in Upanishadas try to convey their cenception by saying ,``Neti, Neti``, ie God is ``not this, not this``. This God is beyond sensory perception, neither a form of material nor energy, perhaps some sort of fundamental ``abstract natural reality``. The God by this definition, can not have any desire to be worshipped by humans, or any othre living form and hence he can not intervene in human acts. Law of Karma is only a manifestation of this all pervading ``reality``.

Sincerely

Urstruly #228

May be your analysis is wrong, may be right.

For example, the slogan of human right, secularism and democracy is for me a cover for hegemonist tendencies for world`s biggest and for world`s richest democracies.

What is the right of a people. What is the right of a nation.

Only power politics is the name of the game.

So what is the solution?

I have to fight for my rights is the minimum I can think.

Urstruly, Hobbyty,

Hey Guys, can we pl. treat this as a discussion among equals. I don`t claim expertise on anything.

Hobbyty,

(1)

``Is there such a thing as Redemption or Salvation or Grace/Karam or Forgiveness in Hinduism or Buddhism?``

A very important differenece I think. While Islam and Christianity has the concept of forgiveness (its OK to kill/torture and then clean the slate with a heartfelt `sorry`), hinduism and Buddhism has no such concept. I must bear the consequences of my actions. No possibility of escape.

(2)

``How does karma operate in the presence of forgiveness?``

As above. It would be like asking gravity to relent for a while.

There`s the buddhist story about the bandit angulimala, who killed his victims and made a `mala` of their fingers. The buddha converted him. He repented and became a monk. Later while begging in a certain town someone recognized him. People gathered around and beat him to near-death. On hearing this the Buddha rushed to him. He then said that something like this was inevitable, as there was no escape from the consequences of one`s actions.

(3)

``Redemption, compassion and forgiveness are corner stones of Islam. One is redeemed by acknowledging that Allah/God is the Creater and man is his instrument. To discover one`s own humanity and fellow persons by the challenge of compassion and forgiveness.``

You are confusing 2 issues I think. Man-to-Man compassion/forgiveness and God-to-Man compassion/forgiveness. The first is there in all religions. All the discussion above is regarding the latter.

About the latter, you should be able to see that both sides have good arguments. How would you like a serial killer to torture and kill your most loved ones and then go scot free with a public apology???

BTW, I notice that you (perhaps unknowingly) slipped in a ``Allah/God`` - thereby intending it to mean ``Either Allah or any God``. There is no such thing in Islam. It should read ``only Allah``.





Urstruly,

(1)

``Since the concept of Karma and re-incarnation go together...``

In Hinduism this is true of course. The soul carries the `account` of its deeds through its various births, polishing itself more and more until it reaches perfection.

I`m not certain about Buddhism though. Certainly there`s no concept of a soul re-incarnating carrying its previous `account` into this birth. But here`s my present understanding of it (you can probably shoot it full of holes!):

There`s no permanent soul or atman that moves from body to body. I am not merely defined by my qualities (called sanskar), but I AM my qualities and NOTHING else. (In modern terms - I am my psyche, and nothing else)

What develops/shapes these qualities in me??? My surrounding influences and my actions. The smallest injustice I commit leaves it mark on my psyche. In that sense I am not the same person 10 years ago or even a minute ago.

As an extreme example, say I`m an unthinking killer. My actions don`t really bother the top layer of my consciousness at the moment. Because of the state I`m in, I undoubtably suffer (anxiety about capture, various complexes, ect.). Now say some day I suddenly realise my depravity and turn into a good guy. In my clear-minded state today, I obviously realise the full measure of agony I caused. This will again cause me endless suffering, no matter how much I atone.

One way out of this is enlightenment/nirvana. The Buddha on being asked a personal question, said ``Siddartha the person is dead. He has been extinguished.`` Please don`t ask me what that means!

(2)

``And also what if a human reincarnates into an animal, like a donkey or a caterpiller then what is the ``expected good Karma`` that will help them re-incarnate into humans again. And how they will be taught to do good deeds. I am sure I am not the first to ask these questions.``

Urstruly, there`s no doubt, 1000 years ago you would have been a philosopher par excellence !!!

(3)

``And my final question is: what will prevent a Karma beleiver from being as agressive as the other monotheist religions are alleged to be. If there are some teachings for Karma beleivers to keep them becoming so then is there a chance that such teachings may also exist with non-karma beleivers?``

Obviously, if I`m taught that I can be forgiven at ANY time for ANYTHING, my behavior will be significatntly different from my friend who`s been taught that there`s no escape from the consequences of his actions. No ???

regards,

The Band Played on....

yikes you bring back too many of my own childhood memories..

some worse, some real.. some still distant enough to keep them from coming back.

Cheers

Shankar # 219

Plz see # 227 addressed to Aamir. THat post was addressed to you too but somehow I missed your name.

Krashid #220

I dont think we have much time to test, what is considered universally right. And it is considered right with any of the moral teachings around the globe. A decade of lifetime was spent under zia`s dictatorship, another decade under the fascist rules of NS and BB, and another decade is on our door step with the aadha titer aadha batair basic democracy of Musharaf. WE might be the unluckiest generation but we still have time to change that if we try, for the coming generations.

Aamir #223

And I also strongly suspect that the genetically modified foods, which are actulally 95% of the food available in North America, is also changing our behaviours. How true is it that statement: The genetic grafting of scorpion genes into potatoes, which turns potatos into a poison for a certain kind of bugs, but ``does not affect`` humans. And genetic grafting of a gene obtained from a pacific fish that lives and survives deep under the drak frozen ocean where sunlight can`t reach, helps improve the shelf life of tomatoes and make them more tolerant towards tempearture changes.

I strongly suspect that the recent incidents of violence in schools in US and UK where students turned onto their fellow students and massacared them indiscriminately, has something to do with GMF. The societal attitude that promotes and stregthens individualism just adds fuel to the fire. I dont think that Us students have more weapons than Paki students, but such erratic behavior is never seen.

So foods and societal pressures are both supplementing each other and causing aggressive human behavior. The stakes in GMF business are so high, of this capatist society that no one even dares challenge it.

Is there a geneticist on Chowk? plz contribute.

anarayan # 221

Interesting concept. But before we further this argument let me be clear on something. Since the concept of Karma and re-incarnation go together; what and who defines the ``good life form`` which results in good deeds and ``bad life form`` which obviously is a result of bad deeds. Is a Brahmin a ``good life form``, ``an example to follow``. If a person is born Brahmin, then doesnt he have a comaprative and competitive adavantage over lower life forms and have better chances of being re-incarnated as a Brahmin again.

And also what if a human reincarnates into an animal, like a donkey or a caterpiller then what is the ``expected good Karma`` that will help them re-incarnate into humans again. And how they will be taught to do good deeds. I am sure I am not the first to ask these questions.

Please also answer Hobbyty`s questions: where and how does the concept of repentence and (divine)forgiveness (and also deivine compassion) fit in the concept of Karma.

And my final question is: what will prevent a Karma beleiver from being as agressive as the other monotheist religions are alleged to be. If there are some teachings for Karma beleivers to keep them becoming so then is there a chance that such teachings may also exist with non-karma beleivers?

Ananaryan 218

Ok - got the Karma part - does that mean the lower castes must have done something wrong that they were born into that caste? Is there such a thing as Redemption or Salvation or Grace/Karam or Forgiveness in Hinduism or Buddhism?

If there is how can castes continue to exist?

How does karma operate in the presence of forgiveness?

Redemption, compassion and forgiveness are corner stones of Islam. One is redeemed by acknowledging that Allah/God is the Creater and man is his instrument. To discover one`s own humanity and fellow persons by the challenge of compassion and forgiveness.

anNY #

[[Shirinjee…aik chamcha? Mainae aap kee yaad mae last week doe pooree mixed plate aur paanee puri kee plateain khaaleen…dilpasand chaat in bahadurabad…]]]....

Akailae , Akailey ! I`ll let you off the hook this time for being so naughty !

And thanks fo your addy.... will touch base soon InshaAllah.Aur itnae achae Naam mein ``dude `` kahan sey agaya hai ?

Humarey haath to is address ko likhtey waqt KaNpeiN gey zaroor !

Urstruly ...

[[Harey Aam ...]]... zara ahista !asee korae na parth jaien :)

Waisey vancouver mein ``Langra aam khaney ko mila ``. The real one ... from Pakistan.Not the red and green ones in the supermarkets, which lack in the genotype !but qualify phenotypically for har-ray- aam :)

sa:)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts