An Eulogy For The Hawks

Re: Romair #145

``But I feel I am better off living in Pakistan as a Muslim, that I would have been living in India as a Muslim. I have had a chance to pursue a career in the military. Had I decided to continue, the highest positions of the Pakistan miltiary were open to me. This is the not the case in India for Muslims, according to India`s largest English Muslim newspaper (www.milligazzette.com)``

I do not know if milligazzette substantiated their claims with any facts, or is it mere heresay? I compiled statistics on all Indian Chiefs (Army, Navy, Airforce) since Independence. It turns out that that fully 11% of Army Chiefs, 21% of Navy Chiefs, and 33% of Air Force Chiefs were non-Hindus (in a country where 85% of the population is Hindu). This should settle any doubts that minorities are not welcome at the top positions of the Indian force structure.

Here are the details on non-Hindu chiefs:

Indian Army Chiefs

Field Marshal Sam Hormusji Framji Jamshedji Manekshaw, 1969-72; General Sunith F. Rodrigues, 1990-93, ie. 2 out of 19 `Indian` Chiefs of the Army (i.e 11%) since Independence

Indian Navy Chiefs

Admiral J. Cursetji, 1976-79, Admiral R.L. Pereira, 1979-1982, Admiral O.S. Dawson, 1982-84, ie. 3 out of 14 Indian Navy Chiefs (ie. 21%)

Indian Air Force

Air Marshal Aspy Merwan Engineer, 1960-64; Air Chief Marshal Arjan Singh, 1964-69; Air Chief Marshal Idris Hasan Latif, 1978-81; Air Chief Marshal Dilbagh Singh, 1981-84; Air Chief Marshal D A La Fontaine, 1985-88, ie. 5 out of 15 Indian Air Force Chiefs (ie. 33%)

You also need to factor in the fact that at Independence all officers were given the option to opt for either India or Pakistan. Most Muslim officers opted for the latter with a few notable exceptions. It was not until the late 70s or early 80s that you had an entire officer class that had not had to make the decision to opt for either India or Pakistan. Thus, it should come as no surprise that in the 3 decades following Independence, there were very high ranking Muslim officers in the Indian armed forces. That situation changed with the appointment of Air Chief Marshal Idris Hasan Latif, 1978-81

So, my request to you is -- before making half-baked allegations, please check your facts.

Re: Tahmed321 #167

Thank you very much. This just confirms that the LeT are a fringe group with little support from the civilized Pakistanis.

Re: AAmir #169

I failed to understand your point, sir.

Hullo mr.jay,

thank you for writing in slightly easier language…your posts normally go whooosh over my underdeveloped pakistani brain…

``the patriotism leads him to sher sha suri.. his dilapilated tomb, that is the identification of the pak problem, make the muslims of pakistan aware of the actions of the BJP, stinking hindus, that is the problem definition, that is patriotism.``

you use ylh as an example…shouldn’t you know better by now? All the sane people here have tried to knock some sense into the kid (temporal, PM, shankar etc) but he still persists…someone who thinks slapping a man because he is waving an indian flag in a concert where pakistanis are performing and form the majority of the audience is right and worthy of announcing on a forum quite obviously has a problem…a big and very sad problem…his heart might be in the right place since he obviously loves our country but he doesn’t realize what a great disservice he is doing the country by his constant uttering of crap that have made him the butt of all jokes …don`t use him as an example next time or I`ll use pakistanloving mr.veresh as an example for all things india stands for and we both know how much pain that will cause you…and for the record all I knew about sher shah suri was that he was a saint of some sort and this was due to a play I had seen on t.v some years ago…doctor abdus salaam`s work I on the other hand have done 2 projects on in college and then university in a political science and physics workshop conducted partly in karachi and islamabad…and please note that contrary to what you people here think we do not think of our country with love in terms of hate for india as you claim above…the average pakistani youngster couldn’t give a flying walnut…now if someone disses us, indian or nepali or chinese we will obviously diss right back…but whats really funny is that theres no chinese or nepalese here saying bad things...only you indians

my country holds that anyone with pakistani origin irrespective of his religion will be as much a pakistani as anyone else…so weather its dr.abdus salaam or the christian lady on top of kfc saddar who makes kikazz chocolate cake; they will be as much pakistani to me as my maulana sahab who has been making me pray quran for 11 years now and the next door neighbors…the people condemning abdus salaam are the rot that pakistan is infested with...it is these very same people who enforce islam forcefully in complete disaccordance of its spirit for their own means giving hate infested people like you more material to pick on us…so mr.jay whats happening in pakistan right now is not in my hands or scouts or even ylh`s…yet we take responsibility…the political system is in shambles…you think we like the idea of musharaf as president or even CE and nawaz sharif partying in saudia after all he did? The fact that we look like idiots most of the times in front of the world is not lost to us…especially with mean people like you rubbing it in every second day…but like scouty said we know whats wrong…and we will with everything that we have do everything that we can to make things better…things are bad but they wont be for very long now…we`re young with minds of our own (and dynamic minds at that), charm:], solid educations and a lot of time on our sides…another 10 years down the road you wont find any corrupt officials named urstruly, scouty, ali, ylh, hobbyty or anNy…we`ll be in key positions doing whatever we can for our country and we`ll do just fine thank you very much…and my dad says barae bole nahin boltae…aap kee constant harpings about Great Big Huge Powerful India aap ko aik din bharee par jain gae

Re: bharatiya musalman, #139

``the Gujarati Bania convert (Jinnah...yes, I will call him this for his grandfather was a Hindu Gujju Bania).``

By making that statement, you have insulted many decent people you call ``Bania``. You are many things. What you are not is a decent human being.

shammi #166 ``Can any honorable Pakistani please stand up and roundly criticize this latest threat by the Lashkar-e-Toiba?``

Even without the incentive of being ``honorable``, and even if they did not threaten to kidnap the cricketers, I am pleased to say that if I had my way these people would be breaking rocks in Baluchistan with prison guards keeping an eye on them.

Colour of patriotism

scout, anNy and other young pakistanis

You all at some time or other make the claim that we are aware of the problems of pakistan, poverty, corruption, dictatorship, mullaism, blah blah....No this type of identification of problems doesnot help, even when like scout and YLH say that they are going back to help the nation.

Let me give one example, YLH wrote about Sher Sha Suri, how his tomb is not maintained by the hindus. This article is in line with the TNT thinking, the musharaff thinking, the jihadic thinking.

As an educated person, if he is really patriotic to the extend that he wants to inculcate a culture of education to the pakistanis, if he has been influenced by what he has seen and learned in the US despite it being in Rutgers, he would have found the idea of talking about a sher sha suri repugnant. Is it more relevant to create a hero out of abdus salam, write at least a good post about him ... the patriotism leads him to sher sha suri.. his dilapilated tomb, that is the identification of the pak problem, make the muslims of pakistan aware of the actions of the BJP, stinking hindus, that is the problem definition, that is patriotism.

When I talked about the love of country I meant something specific distilled out of ones experience, not the generic ones, the type that propels the jihadists. The love that YLH shows in the article for pakistan betrys his education. May be it is the wrong word, may be for the pakistanis, the children of TNT, striking a path of modernity in education, making a hero out of abdus salam could be a haraam. Sher sha suri is great. abuds who...

Romair # 145

`` Anytime one group separates from a union, the separation is always based on a feeling of exploitation.``

..so sir, everytime such a `feeling` develops, a separation is warranted? ..maybe Sindh- as i gather from several of GM Syed`s impassioned arguments...or now that Altaf Hussein is openly saying that Partition was the biggest blunder in history and singing `sare jahan se accha hindustan hamara` on Indian TV, such a feeling must exist and be valid.....or maybe you have details to argue why these particular feelings may not qualify (of course, post-facto of such an event you may still use the example of a separate Sindh nation to ask for Kashmir`s secession from India- like all pakistanis try to do giving the example of bangladesh now)...

..you also seem to insinuate that muslims/minorities in India may be getting a raw deal...let me assure you, as a minority growing up in India, that the GOI has always bent over backwards to give the muslim/minority more than his fair share, not an easy task with the shining example of Pakistan always in front of us..and as you must be aware, this is something that has not escaped the attention of the hindu bigots too....and its patently false that there are very few indian muslim IT professionals in the US...indian muslims man the middle and upper echelons in several indian IT cos, and we are not just taliking about the richest Indian here..your anecdotal evidence is a convenient one..it may still be true that muslim representation in the defence is only around 3%- but the reasons would definitely not be discrimination... had you been in the Indian Army, nothing would have stopped you from rising to the very top...i can offhand think of several minority Chief-of-staffs in the defence estb, including the current Chief of Naval Staff...if you follow the newspaper you mention, you will note that- with rare instances of getting carried away- they speak of India`s institutions like courts, government, most of the polity- with respect...their main target is a certain segment of india`s political spectrum, and which they should rightly attack...

..in contrast, when one compares the life of Pakistan as a nation- its utter lack of representative politics, the legal discrimination against its minorities, the favour and bias for several sectarian and ethnic groups in its power politics, and then this country turns around and lectures India about how it should fulfil the people`s wishes in Kashmir, that becomes something hard to digest..

..btw, your ``Azad`` kashmir has clauses like this- Part 2 of Section 7 of the POK Constitution : ``No person or political party in Azad Jammu and Kashmir shall be permitted to propagate against, or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to, the ideology of the State’s accession to Pakistan``.

and the plight of the ``Northern Areas``,land-jacked by Zia from Kashmir is worse...i quote from a recent report:

``The Northern Areas are a story of deprivation of a people and their land devoid of any development and denial of basic fundamental rights. There is no adult franchise, no assembly and the people have never participated in an election or sent representatives to the National Assembly. The prestigious Pakistani magazine the ‘Herald’ has termed the Northern Areas ``The Last Colony``.

The literacy rate is 14 per cent for males and 3.5 per cent for women! There is just one doctor for 6,000 people. Piped water supply is non-existent. So is electricity for more than two thirds of the population of the area. Except for some brick kilns there is no ‘industry’ in the area. An area of 72,495 sq. kms. had in 1993, according to the Pakistan daily, ‘Muslim’, (December 13, 1993), metalled roads extending merely to 162 kms.

There are only two colleges in the area. There is not a single polytechnic in this seventy thousand square kilometer land. The only paper K2 carries on its mast head the legend ``Voice of a constitutionless land``. There is no radio or TV station.``

..and of course, none of the bleeding Pakistani hearts have anything to say about the 2700 sq. miles of Kashmir gifted by your govt. to China in `63...

..it is however a fact that there is an element of popular discontent in Indian Kashmir...but that is not something that cannot be addressed within the parameters of the Indian constitution...if all violence in Kashmir were to stop (or contained), you will find the much elusive normalcy return to Kashmir in a couple of months, as so famously happened in Punjab...

..pakistan has always indulged in such brinkmanship with no awareness of its own mortality, and this is something that happens from a prolonged lack of democrarcy....when a whole population`s real aspirations are sidelined or confused into an elitist cartel`s egotism....and till your country adopts democracy as its governing ethic and continues with it for a very long time inspite of all its faults, no procession of feel-good generals or their shortcut policies will get you out of your rut..

..and meanwhile you guys can continue getting your kicks by proclaiming how badly India compares with China!

TIMES OF INDIA

Atal`s Burden

Pushed by Vision, Dogged by Betrayal

By MANOJ JOSHI

THE forthcoming Vajpayee-Musharraf summit in Agra is neither the most important nor the most eventful one held between India and Pakistan. But it could be the most portentous, if only because of the personalities involved, particularly prime minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee. Given General Musharraf`s commitment to dialogue anytime, anywhere, it should be clear that the primary credit for the Agra summit rests with Mr Vajpayee who undertook what was a minor U-turn in India`s policy of not talking till Pakistan ended ``cross-border terrorism.``

People have seen Nehruvian echoes in Mr Vajpayee`s policies and argued that constancy and consensus have been the hallmark of India`s foreign policy under him. But even a cursory look at Mr Vajpayee`s career, as political leader and parliamentarian since the mid-1950s and minister of external affairs (1977-1979), will show that his has been a substantive but dissenting presence in India`s political history.

As member of the Jana Sangh, his view was coloured by muscular and even strident nationalism. Moderated by a spell as foreign minister, he emerged in the early 1990s as a senior statesman and a pillar of Indian foreign policy. But, his insistence on holding the nuclear tests in May 1998 revealed that beliefs shaped in the crucible of opposition politics in the 1950s and 1960s continue to colour his worldview.

Going by this record, there are two summits that Mr Vajpayee will not want to emulate - the ones at Tashkent in 1966 after the 1965 Indo-Pak war and the Shimla meeting following the Pakistani surrender in Dhaka. At the latter, India returned a captured 93,000-strong army, 17,000 sq kms of territory in exchange for Bhutto`s verbal assurances that he would gradually convert the Line of Control into an international border. Bhutto told Indira that an open commitment to that effect could jeopardise the existence of the fledgling democratic government in Pakistan. Indira Gandhi conceded.

One result of this was that the new line dividing the Indian and Pakistani forces in Kashmir was not called a ``ceasefire line`` connoting a military division, and neither was it a Line of Actual Control which implies more or less the same thing. But the term adopted - Line of Control - indicated acquiescence of sorts. But then, having got back his prisoners, and re-established links with Bangladesh, Bhutto failed to fulfil his part of the bargain.

The Tashkent declaration was the outcome of the 1965 war where Pakistan lost some 1,920 sq kms of territory and India 540 sq kms. But the Pakistani losses were strategic, they lost some 650 sq kms in the Haji Pir salient and in the area opposite Muzaffarabad and, worse, another 830 sq kms near Lahore and other parts of its Punjabi heartland. Prime minister Lal Bahadur Shastri agreed to return all this without any commitment from Pakistan on Kashmir or any other matter.

Within Parliament and elsewhere, Mr Vajpayee was a stringent critic of both the agreements. Indeed, in 1972, he opposed the return of territory arguing in a debate on the Simla agreement: ``We have conquered that territory. Territory can be acquired by conquest. We have established civil administration and unfurled the tricolour there.``

However, later in that decade, he set aside these misgivings and as foreign minister in the Janata government, he took the lead in re-opening relations with Pakistan, frozen since the Simla talks. Mr Vajpayee visited Pakistan when it was headed by Zia-ul-Haq, then chief martial law administrator, but he established a rapport that is still remembered today.

So it is not surprising in some ways that 21 years later, this was the same man, who, having taken India over the nuclear threshold, decided to visit the Minar-e-Pakistan, a monument built to commemorate the founding of Pakistan. Speaking at the civic reception at Lahore, after his visit to Minar-e-Pakistan, Mr Vajpayee said that the wounds of partition had healed and the scar that remained was a reminder of the need for reconciliation. ``Aap dost badal saktey hain,`` he noted, ``padosee nahin badal saktey, to achey padosee ke natey rahen.`` (you can change friends, but you can`t change neighbours, so why not live as good neighbours). Cliched though it may sound, it reflected deep personal views. But to his chagrin, Lahore died on the snowy heights of Kargil.

For a year thereafter, even as he nursed his bruised ego, the prime minister`s goal remained unchanged - a desire to cap his public life with an achievement that will go down in India`s history - the grand reconciliation with Pakistan. Towards this end, he tried to work around the problem by trying to deal with the Kashmiri militants and, when that failed, he contemplated dialogue with the Hurriyat. When that seemed difficult, he decided to engage Mr Musharraf directly, albeit with some behind-the-scenes help from the US.

So, when Mr Vajpayee goes to Agra next week it will be with a backward half-glance at the troubled 50-year-old history of Indo-Pakistan relations and his personal views. The lesson he will have drawn is that good intentions or one-sided concessions are not enough to untangle the complicated Indo-Pak tangle, and neither is brute strength.

In this perspective, it would be foolhardy to expect that the two leaders will be able to resolve the Kashmir question, or even set it on the road to resolution in Agra. The best possible outcome would be one where India would agree to place the subject on a special agenda, and appoint a senior interlocutor, to negotiate with a Pakistani counterpart. But the price India will certainly demand is a reduction, if not elimination, of violence in the Kashmir valley.

Not surprisingly, the issue of trust will be foremost in Mr Vajpayee`s mind considering that he, the victim, is meeting the author of Kargil. To give Kashmir a reasonable chance of a solution, both sides would be well advised to take measures to build trust even as the talks are undertaken. Among these would be implementing the 1989 Siachen disengagement agreement, demarcating the Sir Creek border, fleshing out confidence-building measures on nuclear weapons agreed to in Lahore and opening trade and people-to-people contacts. Several small steps which Mr Vajpayee could well write about in some future poem.

Can any honorable Pakistani please stand up and roundly criticize this latest threat by the Lashkar-e-Toiba?

``Ganguly, Tendulkar face Lashkar threat``

MUMBAI, JULY 6.The cricket captain, Saurav Ganguly, and star batsman, Sachin Tendulkar, are among those who have been threatened by the militant outfit, Lashkar-e-Taiba.

It has threatened to kidnap and hold them hostages, DCP (Crime), Mr. Pradeep Sawant, said here today...

http://www.hinduonnet.com/stories/01070006.htm

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Ref Shankar #156

Okay we cant hold India accountable by Paki standards so which standard should we aspire to, maybe American standards? Oh no, wait we have all that mess related to Central America. So whom then, whom...?

ref: Romairr #145

There is much that is true in what you write, and of course it sounds very good. But I think you are guilty of oversimplifying the issue. For eg; consider that the drug barons in Colombia consider themselves an oppressed people and want to break away from the ``cruel`` majority which does not allow them to carry on their means of livlihood. Would you support such a claim? After all their claim meets all of your criterion. What about the white supremists in the US? they are a minority too. Would you support their demands for partition?

The reality is that we live in a world where we are all different, but we have to live together. Where do we draw the line between a minority getting ``oppressed`` by a majority, and a minority demanding more than is its just due? I confess I do not know, but I do know that just because people are in a minority does not automatically mean that they are right.

The line I draw is that when a minority is part of a representative democracy, has access to political institutions to voice its concerns and a constitution which protects its rights from being unduly crushed by the majority, then the validity of its secession claims are suspect. And violence being used in the above case is a sure sign of a weak case. Can I then support the Palestinians in their struggle, and the Bangladeshis in theirs and not support the Kashmiris? Yes, I can.

-narain

Ref ROmair,

``My prediction: India (after 17 years) will agree to Pakistan`s offer of a bilateral withdrawl from Siachen (Thank God!!).

India will agree to Pakistan`s offer of the Iran-India pipeline through Pakistan``

I think its too early for both to happen:

my predictions:

1) atmost there will be some kind of ``comittee`` to study a withdrawal from Siachen (since there are a thousand complex details details involved)

2)the Iran pipeline thing should be related to other trade issues (an ``in principle`` understanding may be reached)

Bharatiya Musalman

Mr. Imran,

While it will be suffering, you owe it to yourself to visit Pakistan for a period of three to six months. Your assertions (exertions) about Pakistan would be more credible if you can also say that you have visited there and have traveled the length and breadth, and have spoken with ordinary Pakistanis and therefore feel a measure of confidence that your opinions are formulated, not by heresay, but by experience.

To better gauge the thinking of ordinary Pakistanis, you may consider making common cause with them, break bread with them and such, so that you may formulate an opinion backed up by facts of experience and not just heresay.

Do you believe that most Muslims in India, hold opinions about Pakistan, such as yours?

Before Pakistan disentegrates you owe it to yourself to discover for yourself, what evil Pakistan is. No harm can come from such an exercise. Perhaps your experience will confirm your opinions and in that case you can make assertions with confidence, having the benefit of experience.

Re: Romair#146 - follow up to Saad P. Aslam

``since WWII, Western European has gone away from the idea of forced geographic unions and the corresponding terrible economic consequences, to the idea of voluntary geographic unions with a common economic base (EU)...This is what needs to happen in South Asia, and is the only thing that will work...``

I had posted a similiar idea a long time ago, but YLH was completely opposed to it. Disillusioned, I gave up pursuing it further.

Now that Saad P. Aslam and Romair have expressed interest, here is what I propose, and why:

a) India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and the other SAARC states that want to, should seriously consider unifying their foreign and defense policies under unified, common leadership, while maintaining the status quo in internal affairs -- i.e. separate legislatures, laws, police, constitutions, the works. Kashmir should be reunited, and invited to join as a separate state. This also fits in well with the fact that the foreign and defence policies of each state are severly impacted by the other states. The foreign and defense policies should be conducted by a directly elected leader from all member states subject to confirmation by an elected body that has equal representation from all member states (thereby neutralizing India`s larger numerical superiority, while also ensuring that the directly elected leader will have to work hard to win Indian votes). It could also be required to have the leadership rotate through the member states. A 2/3 or greater vote will be necessary before forces under this unified commander can be committed to any member state (thus preventing India from deploying forces in Kashmir, and Pakistan in erstwhile East Pakistan -- These ideas are still crude, but could be refined further).

Also, to give real executive `teeth` to this new directly elected leader (call him President-General, or whatever) all militaries in the member states will be directly answerable to him/her and swear allegiance to him/her. (thereby preventing dissension, etc.). Likewise for all the foreign ministries.

I support this because it will (a) remove current sources of discord between the beligerents in the Subcontinent and yield a peace dividend which everyone should be able to benefit from (b) preserve Jinnah`s and Nehru`s visions (TNT and joint electorates, respectively), (c) enable greater people-to-people contact and promote commerce, (d) revert the situation back to where the Cabinet Mission Plan of 1946 (accepted by both the Muslim League and Congress, but rejected by Nehru) left off -- with fully sovereign states in a federation, except in the areas of defence and foreign affairs. If it makes sense to one day have a common currency, then maybe that could be pursued, too.

All of the above arrangements should be fully voluntary.

romair, perhaps you should ask that human rights organizations be given access to pok.

read the following and go into hiding for a couple of weeks. then you can come back and start writing your garbage once again.

from the outlook magazine -

It would seem that the people of the erstwhile undivided Jammu and Kasmir, across the line of control, are beginning to get aware of the double-speak inherent in Pakistan`s right of self-determination rhetoric that is aimed at India and the J&K under it.

In their latest joint communication to the UNCHR, the Jammu Kashmir National Students Federation (JKNSF), Jammu Kashmir National Awami Party (JKNAP) & Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) have condemned ``the terrible, unethical and non-democratic situation in Pakistani occupied Kashmir (Azad Kashmir) brought about by the Government of Pakistan with the help of Pakistan Army, secret agencies and the local police against the nationalist candidates and their supporters in the deliberate genocide of basic human rights of Kashmiri people.``

According to them, ``more than a hundred nationalist Kashmiris have been arrested, tortured and dishonored in Pakistani Occupied Kashmir. This is the second time that the candidates of pro-independence Kashmiri organizations submitted their nomination papers for forth coming election in Azad Jammu Kashmir Legislative Assembly, but the office of the Election Commissioner has rejected all the nomination papers, just because the nationalist candidates has refused the black Azad Kashmir Constitution Act 1974, par 7 (2) imposed by the Government of Pakistan in 1974.``

Their letter to the President of UNCHR adds:

``It is the gross violation of Kashmiri`s human & political rights. We believe in the complete independence of Jammu Kashmir and it`s our real national emancipation.

``This black act has limited our right of freedom even right of vote. The act is ``No person or political party in Azad Jammu Kashmir shell be permitted to propagate against, or take part in activities prejudicial or detrimental to the Ideology of the State`s Accession to Pakistan``.

``While, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article No. 19. ``Every one has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinion without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.``

``And the UDHR Article No.21: ``Every one has the right to take part in the Government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.``

``Your Excellency, Are these Articles not applicable and valid for the people of Azad Jammu Kashmir? Are Kashmiri people not living in this Universe? Are Kashmiries not Human beings?

``According to a news agency ``ONLINE`` Pakistan has decided to appoint one hundred thousand Army in Azad Kashmir at the occasion of so called Assembly Election. Beside this other paramilitary troops will be present there at the name of security.

``We appeal to you to persuade Pakistan and so called Azad Jammu Kashmir Governments to omit this act, release the arrested people and accept the nomination papers.