The Indian James Bond

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Harimou #572

Harimou#591

Thank you for the informations both in the last post & previous posts regarding events around 47

Of course there is tremendous controversy when we examine the Kashmir issue around 47 -48 ,Plebescite ,Security council,``fuc * * up action by Pakistan in 47 `` not withstanding ,still Kashmir never is like Hyderabad (andhra Pradesh or Tamil Nadu ,even you wouldnt disagree.

I think this postt is going uinto oblivion,& i promise to take up the issue of Kashmir in a better place so thatr more ppl. can read & participate.

Thank you once agin for your opinion ,infiormation ,ets say good bye to this displaced ,pushed aside thread .

Ref Bapu #: 578

[....Gemni Ganeshan (who was he?? )]

Another South Indian actor. He is the one who distributed his seed rather widely and caused the birth of Rekha. He is still alive at 85 and continues to act in movies and TV serials.

[If you talk about freezing the india map in 1858 WHY NOT FREZE IT ON 1947 when mid night india wind freedom(moulana Azad & Freedom at midnight you will see Kash mir WAS NOT PART OF INDIA as also GOA,JUNAGARH,Hyderabad, & 500 princely atates.How did that change ,if not by force Violence (johar mehmood in goa )acquiring by strong arm tac tics?]

Good question. You have also asked it without being too emotional about it. Let me try to answer it.

The deal that Nehru struck with the British government was that British India would become independent and become two states, Pakistan and India, and that the various princely states would have the choice of joining India or Pakistan. The princely states did not like this one bit and thought that they could become independent when the British left. Britain ruled out this possibility by saying that the princely states were too integrated into British India (in terms of transit of goods, railways, customs, etc.) for this to be viable and continued to advise the princes to choose one country or another to merge with. Out of approximately 550-odd princely states, for most there was not much question about which princely state would join what country. For instance, India never made any claim to Bahawalpur, a Muslim-majority state ruled by a Muslim nawab bordering both India and Pakistan. India did not make any claim to Kalat, deep inside Baluchistan.

On the other hand, Jinnah and company kept trying to get at countries deep inside Indian territory such as Bhopal. The Nawab of Bhopal was the head of the Chamber of Princes and if Bhopal defected to Pakistan, Jinnah hoped he could get more princely states to join Pakistan. Unfortunately, Bhopal did not oblige Jinnah. Nor did Jaipur and Bikaner, Hindu-majority states with Hindu rulers. Jinnah and company finally found 3 unhappy cases. The first was Junagadh, a Hindu-majority state ruled by a Muslim nawab. About a year before independence, when the Nawab was away in Europe, they installed Shah Nawaz Bhutto (the father of Zulfikhar Ali Bhutto) as the Dewan (prime minister) who was manuevering to get Junagadh to join Pakistan. The nawab actually acceded to Pakistan in secret; Pakistan announced it shortly after August 15, 1947; India protested that this was unfair and asked Pakistan not to accept the accession; Pakistan decided that this would be a nice case with which Indian arguments on Hyderabad and Kashmir could be countered and held on to its position; Junagadh troops fired on Hindu citizens; India sent in troops to protect the people; the Dewan wrote to the Nawab asking him to change his mind about joining Pakistan because of the people`s suffering; India held a referendum in which 98% voted to join India. That ended the story of Junagadh.

Hyderabad wanted to become independent and the only way the Nizam could try this was by playing off India against Pakistan. No matter what you read in your history books, the Nizam negotiated with India on accession but would not sign the papers for 18 months. At some point, he lost control of his troops which decided to take it out on the Hindu population of Hyderabad as well as attacked Indian trains which moved through Hyderabad territory. The Indian government said enough is enough and sent in troops to restore order and still gave the Nizam a very generous privy purse.

Now comes the curious case of Kashmir. Again, Maharaja Hari Singh wanted to be independent but had no clue that such a strategic state could not remain independent when surrounded by three more powerful states: India, Pakistan and China. It is clearly documented that Pakistan supported by supplying arms to raiders from NWFP who were led by Pak Army officers who conveniently obtained leave from their duty. When the troops were close to Srinagar, Hari Singh asked for India`s support and India agreed to provide troops only if he acceded to India. Hari Singh signed the Instrument of Accession and Indian troops were airlifted to Srinagar and beat back the raiders from the Valley and from Ladakh.

If the stupid Pakistani leaders had stayed their hands for a few more months, Kashmir would have been theirs. Instead, they thought along the lines of Babar and tried military action to take over the state. Too bad that there was India to support Hari Singh.

You could argue with the events as I post them here. I suggest you go to your local library and read HV Hodson`s book, `The Great Divide`. He had access to all government documents including the minutes of cabinet meetings on the Indian side and has written up extensively on these three states. Why do you think YLH refuses to take up my challenge to summarize Hodson here on Chowk? He has time for Tilak and Gandhi, Sher Shah Suri, Kemal Ataturk and probably Salahuddin will be his next topic but while he constantly whines about Kashmir, he will not write here that in 1947 India was neutral about Kashmir and was perfectly willing to accept that in all likelihood it will go to Pakistan. Because, that would mean that there was a major fcuk-up by Pakistan in Dec 1947 and that blame will have be to laid at the feet of your fearless leader Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah and his sidekicks such as Liaqat Ali.

As far the rest of the states, they peacefully acceded to India (just like Swat and Dir joined Pakistan.... you guys were pissing and moaning about Kashmir that you finally got a signed piece of paper only around 1958 from Swat) and were integrated into India. No, you guys had no chance of getting some little known king in distant Kerala or Orissa to sign up with Pakistan. Considering that you had no great success in Bangladesh which at least had access to the sea, what chance did you have if you had actually gotten a 200-square mile piece of land in the Central Provinces?

Even France did not talk to you guys in 1955 when they handed over Pondicherry to India and as far as Goa is concerned, I don`t think we need any crocodile tears from you guys in Pakistan. The Portuguese didn`t leave Goa politely like the British and the French did and so were thrown out.

[Look muslim never denied that there were more non muslims of everything in India.Yes there were small non muslims(read Hindu if you fell proud)jagirdar,rajahs,mharaja,etc etc.all im saying was there a non muslim before even 20 th century ,who challenged to take the british.I was watching last night on how Zullu were the only tribe to defeat the british ,never heard of at that time due to superior firepowers of british.So Sirajuddoulla ,Tipu despite odds chose to die than SUBMIT .Did any Raja or Jagirdar among the list were even worth amounting to but ``yes sir`` gaddi holding fat politician of your country.]

If you read history, you will find that the Rani of Jhansi went into battle against the British to defend her country and was killed in battle. The 1857 Sepoy Mutiny was led by people such as Tantia Tope and Nana Sahib. The blind emperor Bahadur Shah II was propped up on his Delhi throne but the fight was led by Mahrattas and soldiers from UP, Bihar and Bengal. It was suppressed with the help of Punjabi troops. The first man to be hanged by the British for refusing to use the new bullets which needed to be bitten into - which were rumored to be laced with glue from animal fat - was Mangal Pandey, a Brahmin.

And before 1857, when the majority of the action took place in the Madras and Bengal Presidencies, you will find that both Muslim and Hindu kings fought the British.

Reply Sadna

Sadna - individual`s do things which they need to apologise for - groups generally don`t. As I see it you have no need to apologise at ALL - in fact I should probably thank ou for your support. Now definitely no more on this board. Jiyo. Zafar

Bapu,

Anbybody understand this man?

Zafar #583
PS: I agree, lets wind up here now.

#584,Jay#586 Sadna

Sadna,jay,(harimou,Sux senna ,..)Zafar

When ever small incidents of strict religous laws being implemented ,Shariat aw is blamed & condemned.These laws are also in India & if Indian think that they are more western than eastern(read that Islamic)India without declatring itself Islamic republic ,is closest Non musliom in ``victorian view of sexuality`` than any othe NON MUSLIM country .How about it ,READ

reality bites

I was arrested because of her...

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

[I was hauled over to the police station. There, I was physically and mentally assaulted. They abused my mother and my family and they were passing comments on Queen`s character!]



By Satyabrata Pati, Orissa



I was an above average student in class 10. I had secured good grades, too, but since my aim was to join the IAS, I joined the arts stream instead of science in class 11. Those days I was swept away by the hotel management craze. I got involved in preparing for the hotel management entrance exams, due to which I had to neglect my regular studies. As a result, I secured a third division in class 12.

Suddenly, I found everyone avoiding me. This hurt me a lot and I decided to do BA (English Literature Hons). By this time, all my friends had gone away to different cities to attend college, but I got into V D College, Jeypore. I was doing well at studies but living a lonely life until April 2000. On April 14, my address was published in the pen-friends column of a newspaper. I was flooded with letters. Amongst those was a letter from a girl called Queen. She was preparing for engineering entrances. She made it through entrance and took admission in a college in Rayagada, 130 kms from my town. Our pen-friendship then turned into phone friendship. I used to call her twice a week and tell her my problems. She, too, did the same.

In January 2001, I realized that I was in love-in love with somebody I had never seen, not even a picture. I had this weird idea in my head that she might be thinking that she is better than me since she was studying Computer Engineering and I, English. Also, she was four months older than I. On January 18, I got these doubts cleared and then proposed to her. Queen replied in the negative. She said that she can`t say yes without having ever seen me. I decided to go see her on February 4. I went there with my mother`s permission; I lied to my dad, who is a strict disciplinarian. I went to her hostel and with the superintendent`s permission, I took her out. She was very beautiful, much more than I had expected. She took me to a nearby temple, where there was an isolated spot. We sat there and talked about our colleges and our lives. Everything was going right till a police vehicle came along.

They asked us for identification. When I told them that I was from a decent family and my father was an officer, they thought that I was being rude to them. I was arrested. Queen was dropped to her hostel. When asked, the superintendent told the police that she had let me take Queen out because she had thought I was her brother. But she knew that I was not. I was hauled over to the police station, and was physically and mentally assaulted. They abused my family and started passing comments on Queen`s character. I kept my head down and did not react because I did not want Queen to get into any kind of trouble. The police tried to contact my father, but he was not in his office. When this message was given to him he tried to call me, but could not get through as all STD lines were down.

Meanwhile, at the Rayagada police station, I was constantly praying to God to get me out of that hell. I touched the feet of the officers there, put their shoes on my head to let them know that I had no bad intentions towards Queen. It was mere bad luck that we were at that isolated spot. After intense interrogation, the police released me at 11 pm. I reached Jeypore the next day and proposed to Queen for the second time. She answered in the negative once again. I said it was okay and that we could continue as friends, but actually I was very hurt and upset inside.

At home everyone treated me like I was a criminal. I went to Queen for support, but she, too, wanted to end the relationship. She never wrote to me or called me after that. I called her up several times, but the people at the hostel never let me talk to her. Today, I`m suffering. I think I am on my way to becoming mad. I`ve attempted suicide thrice, but each time, I survived. I`m not able to sleep even after taking sleeping pills. I`ve decided to die.

Before I die, I want to tell that girl that I really loved her from the depths of my heart. I`m still waiting for her, and will wait till my last day. One day she will surely miss me. The thing that troubles me the most is that I had to bow my head to those people for her. I wish her all the best for her future and I wish that one day she will understand my love.

Zafar #583
Re Ms Versey, as I said there is a long history of interactions. But, I donot want to look into the past so much, lets see what the future brings :).

Re right-wingers: may I express my deep apologies to you for their implied `loyalty test` and other intimidation. I have to apologize to Sikhs too, for the yet-unpunished atrocities committed on their community. And there are apologies due elsewhere, too.

I remember being in Madras(then) for a friend`s wedding, staying over at her home for a few days. That was the time when idiot Devi Lal was idiot deputy Prime Minister. Well, while conversation was going on in my friend`s large family circle gathered for the wedding, one of her relatives came in saying ``Devi lal said if Christians donot like it here, let them migrate``.


Well, my friend and her family were all very devout Christians, I was the only Hindu present at the time, if I am right. Religious identities were not such a polarising issue those days, so even though they discussed this statement from a government official as senior as deputy prime minister for quite a while and were obviously very hurt, they didnot make the `Hindu` connection between myself and Devi Lal. But inside myself I certainly did and I felt through and through my Hindu connection with that idiot Devi Lal. I have hated loud-mouthed irresponsible Indian politicians ever since.

On the other hand, we have analysts and social activists like Gail Omvedt writing opinion pieces in the Hindu about how Hinduism is all garbage, the only meaningful philosophy or thought from Indian tradition comes from Buddhism. And I have been accosted many times on the road in India and urged to attend meetings arranged by evangelists, and a simple no from my side has never been sufficient.

So its paradoxical, that to protect multiculturalism and to deal with right-wingers, one needs to assert oneself and say idiot Devi Lal(or idiot Sudarshan or idiot Bajrang Dalis or idiot Thackeray), get lost, you are talking crap. Who are you to decide who goes or stays? One can do this by only asserting oneself as a Hindu because one cannot just let them `hijack` the defination of who Hindus are. And the same with those in the `opposite` camp!

Its a weird predicament, because the Indian Constitution, I believe, calls for a `subdued` majority, not an assertive one, and I believe in this wholeheartedly too.

Can I say sorry again? Next time you feel a jawaab is required(or it is implied that it is required) I suggest you ask them, who the hell are they to ask? Ask them do they believe Hindus and Muslims can live together?

My response has been to those Hindus who diss me on the Hindu-Muslim issue, that if one believes Hindus and Muslims cannot live together, its clear one believes in the Two-Nation-Theory aka Pakistani(state) ideology. So when one`s loyalities clearly lie with Pakistani ideology, how does it make it `better` that one is Hindu instead of a Muslim ?

My thesis is also that SIMI has to be paid(reportedly) to create communal rifts in India, while Hindutva-vadis do it for free. So tell me who is the ISI`s best friend :)?

Reply Gowardhan #584

Gowardhan

I truly don`t get that feeling from reading what Farzana writes. Yes, she criticises plenty about Indian polity/Govt. whatever - but that`s her democratic right. (And my right. And yours. Any any Indian`s.) I can`t recall ONE instance where she defends Pakistan at India`s expense, or promotes an agenda that is pro-Pakistani in the India vs Pakistan sense. It would be interesting to hear what you find SPECIFICALLY pro-Pakistani about what she writes .

(This qualification is due to the fact that I think that peace between the countries is a good thing, and that this would be good for BOTH countries - so you could accuse me of being pro-Pakistani as well as pro-Indian. :-) That kind of thing is OK in my opinion.)

Anyway - I`m not saying that you have to agree with her points (or attitude). You have a right to disagree with these, and to argue you own point of view. But I don`t think it`s fair to call her un-Indian or a foreigner of any kind because of her views. She shouldn`t have to pass some sort of ideological test to demonstrate her loyalty. No Indian should. The right to dissent and disagree is what makes India the country she is.

Zafar

Zafar Al-Talib 583

I will say it crudely. It is not fashionalbe to say but we judge people by the `subliminal` messages they send (Farzana spealizes in reading those messages) and the amount of trust we can establish with them. The subliminal messages coming out of your postings tell everyone that you are a committed Indian. Other Indians of any religion will be proud to speak with you, discuss any issue with you because you are inspire a lot of trust. The subliminal messages Farzana gives are those of a committed Pakistani. Less patient people like me can not find anything to trust in her. How can we be expected to have time for her?

Being born in a country does not make one a citizen of that country in an emotional way whether they are Muslim or Hindu. Jinnah, Zia, Mushy and many Hindu traitors were all born in India.

Reply Sadna # 581

Sadna

Of course I noticed your avoiding the use ``nonIndian`` as a gaali! That`s part of the ``security`` factor in me, and confirms my feeling that you are genuinely committed to the positions you take.

Actually I find this ``poster child`` thing irritating at least in part because I think that it`s a reaction to Farzana raising issues which are uncomfortable for many Indians to deal with. (The things I say are largely comfortable for most secular Indians - hence a more positive response.) She may or may not be 100% right, but the issues she raises (directly or in response to her writing) are underlying emotional ones for Indians of all religious backgrounds.

As a believer in secular India, one nation theory, etc. I find it uncomfortable (infuriating! it`s my country!) to deal with the fact that a part of me is still intimidated by some right wingers in India, that at some level there is a ``loyalty test`` response of some sort which operates automatically. (I fight it.) I can`t speak for anybody else, but I suspect that some Indian Hindus might have similar responses re: minorities. (Irritation when an uncomfortable fact is raised without the ``good`` response being placed there as context/jawaab, although intellectually they recognise the fact. But I am speculating here, and I`m not questioning anybody`s right to disagree.)

All I`m saying is that our emotional reality is separate from our sociopolitical one, but that both need to be addressed. (How? I dunno.)

And at some level I think Farzana cops a lot of flak because what she says belies the flavour and focus of our ``official version`` - there`s a feeling that she`s telling family secrets in public. But that`s the point of Chowk!

Zafar

PS Hey Sadna - I think that now we are making a habit of finishing off boards. Jo Mullah/Brahmin Board pe hua, ab yahan bhi hoga. What do you think? Is it a bad habit or a service to humanity?

Reply #: 574

Zafar Al-Talib

``

I also believe that the Shah Bano case was an APPALLING instance of both Indian law and Islamic morality being subverted. (I support a Uniform Civil Code for India.)

``

-- As usual reading your posts has been a pleasure. It is great to see that there are muslims in India, who feel like you do.

I agree with you that the government should not involve itself in religon. It goes against every fundamental principle of secularism.

Regards,

AD

Zafar #562
Re `nonIndian`, thanks for noticing.
Without discounting one whit the `security` factor which effects every Muslim, esp after Babri Masjid, and every minority community member (given India`s abysmal record of communal violence), and every incident of overt or covert discrimination, I have to say about myself and perhaps other chowkwallahs, that H-M divide is not the only one faced by Indians in their daily lives.

One gets abused or discriminated against for other reasons, too, many of us have faced this in varying degree, I know I have. Many of us are likely to have this in mind while trying to understand Farzana`s point of views and her experiences.

For myself, I would never make a profession out of rancour about my (or my family`s) adverse experiences, though, because I choose to have faith in and include myself in the social contract which Indians from diverse classes and interests have made collectively with each other. I would rather contribute to improve the terms of that contract than merely hold an entire set of people responsible for the problems I face(d).

Bad news about this social contract is bad news, nothing can hide it, noone should. Someone has to do the job of reporting this bad news. But where you become a `poster child` is that you seem to think yourself part of the solution :). But I can understand why you hate it, each person is uniquely himself, and why should the burden of an entire community be put on one person. I hate it too, when I am automatically considered to harbor as-yet-unexposed-heinous-majoritarian-impulses-supportive-of-mass-violence-and-discrimination-of-other-Indians, just because I happen to be a Hindu.

Zafar,

The guilty party is neither Hindu nor Muslim. It is the group of people who consistenly blame the other side for the ills dogging them. Farzana is part of this group. Her religion has got nothing to do with it.

Any Hindu who consistently blames the Muslims is also in the same category.

BTW, I am glad your stand is well defined and you state your view points without much humming and hawing. Glad to know where you stand on Hajj subsidy and the Shah Bano case.

Reply Bapu #: 577

When I was growing up and I did or said something particularly foolish my Dadima, who was a woman of strong opinions and stronger language, used to shout:

``Zafar mian! Jab Allah Mian aqal bant rahe thhe thum sandaas me kyun chupe?!!!!!``

I never had an answer, and used to try and change the subject - often by saying another stupid thing.

It never worked.

Amusing, no?

Reply #: 572

``harimau.........Ref Bapu #: 547 ``

I stand corrected if i misstook Gemni Ganeshan (who was he?? )for Shivaji Ganeshan,I opologize to all the fans of Shivaji Ganeshan,& the blessed departed soul.

If you talk about freezing the india map in 1858 WHY NOT FREZE IT ON 1947 when mid night india wind freedom(moulana Azad & Freedom at midnight you will see Kash mir WAS NOT PART OF INDIA as also GOA,JUNAGARH,Hyderabad, & 500 princely atates.How did that change ,if not by force Violence (johar mehmood in goa )acquiring by strong arm tac tics????????????????????????

Look muslim never denied that there were more non muslims of everything in India.Yes there were small non muslims(read Hindu if you fell proud)jagirdar,rajahs,mharaja,etc etc.all im saying was there a non muslim before even 20 th century ,who challenged to take the british.I was watching last night on how Zullu were the only tribe to defeat the british ,never heard of at that time due to superior firepowers of british.So Sirajuddoulla ,Tipu despite odds chose to die than SUBMIT .Did any Raja or Jagirdar among the list were even worth amounting to but ``yes sir`` gaddi holding fat politician of your country.