A Medley of Internal Contradictions

Pankaj: Thanks for responding and explaining my thinking, and sometime doing it better than muself. I prefer not to respond to personal attacks because they speak for themselves. It is their frustration to challenge, backed by logic or facts, while itching to respond because they vehemently disagree with my positions, leads them to the path of self destruction (in terms of image). If all one can find is a spelling mistake (Aligadh vs. Aligarh), they have to built their post on it and extrapolate the single data point of no serious concern to Jansangh and progeny of Ranjit Singh. Previously Ali1 had guessed six different isms as my favorite against Islam in one of his post. Given six chances of guessing, he could not pick the two right ones. Any intelligent person could easily guess my tilt towards Buddhism in speculative and rationalism in practical terms. His guesses were Hinduism, Sikhism, Atheism, ???.

I think what broke their hearts and frustrated them was my analysis of the number of Indian Muslim immigrants. Nobody had done analysis this way before, at chowk. Previously, it was one of the strongest point, a proof of wholesale discrimination of 120+ million Muslims in which each and every Hindu Indian in addition to Indian government, is practically involved.

If I am forced to identify with one of the two evils (Taliban-Islamic Fundamentalist or Jan Sangh), it will take me a ``peco or femto second`` (jokingly) to side with Jan Sangh. I would not have to grow beard and forced praying and my sisters do not have to be wrapped in 10 yards of chadar and not being able to earn their livelihood, no internet, practically back to stone age and so on.

Stuka: I am not academician and my specialty and bread and butter is actually science. It is more of a result of practical involvement in Pakistani politics, reading and thinking and two years of interacting at chowk, contributing to whatever I say. Once there were some highly talented chowkwallas who have disappeared now. You could exchange ideas, agree or disagree and learn and laugh simultaneously with them. They interacted under names like zeemax, gnostics, SR, Bilal Ahmad,......... Pakistani crowd was in general more rational and more open-minded than the current. There were many Pakistanis with more or less similar ideas as mine. Believe me there are many many well educated pakistanis who think like me but do not say it loudly.

A good relation between east and west Punjab is good for India-Pakistan relations. India can not be threatened by Pakistan or by the population of east Punjab/ Haryans becoming friendly with Punjabis from Pakistan. Pakistan can not be threatened by Pakistani Punjabis, because current Pakistan is the best deal they can dream of, short of independent Punjab which is not very attractive.

dost-mittar: Pakistan is 60 percent Punjabi and if you include other languages like hindko and southern kashmiri, the total number is close to 65-67 percent. If an identity of the majority is threatening to the national identity, the success and flourishing of national identity lies in collaboration and not confrontation. A Punjabi and Pakistani identity must be complementary to each other for Pakistan. Which of the two identities have to bend to adjust? Pakistani identity has to adjust to Punjabi, Sindhi, Pashtun, Balochi and Mohajir identity or everybody has to bend to Islamic identity? They do not feel to bend because they are already Muslims. If everbody is Pakistani/ Muslim only, how can they even say things like Punjabi domination of bureaucracy or Mohajir domination of Sindh or culture of Pakistan? What is the reality. The reality is that all people have not been treated equally and fairly. Group identities will not die no matter how much effort media and government put into spreading it. hice is to either keep denying it or accepting it. Pankaj is absolutely right in saying that in fact we, in both countries, belong to a number of different cultures and live in a state of local environment except for those who are more educated, mobile, capable of writing in English, and living outside their cultural strongholds or abroad. If Islam is used to dispense justice to Sindhis, it is already accepting Sindhis as distinct culture and people whose need justice. Now you can not turn around and tell Sindhis not to think in terms of Sindh.

ref: hobbyty #208

you said ``- I would like to take the position that India can negate any Pakistani claim to speak for Muslims in india, by itself becoming a voice for Muslims inside and outside India. That would require that it renounce it`s attitude of hostility towards Islam and Pakistan would be left with not a leg to stand on. ``

Here`s an article from today`s Jang. Please read it.

``We tend to believe that India is not only the enemy of Pakistan but also of Islam. But this belief is not supported by facts.``

URL: http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/index.html

A very good piece of article with some critical thinking.

If we make the assumption that people by nature are dynamic and evolving, then clinging to God-people who came and preached thousands of years ago is absurd.

Granted, every religion preaches standard stuff like, Be good, Do good, etc. Other than that, we human beings have a responsibility to lead our own lives and be accountable for our actions.

Assuming for the sake of arguement re Kashmir, what happens if/when all the Muslims in Pakistan became Hindus and Hindus in India became Muslims, would Pakistan or India have a claim?

Sidebar: Slaughtering cows or for that matter any animals for consumption has nothing to do with religion.

It involves making a choice that animals endure pain just as humans. What right we have to kill and maim people, animals or those with a beating heart is beyond me.

Thanks.

hobbyty

Fair enough!

Hobbyty, Pakistan is not a voice for Indian Muslims. Indian Muslims themselves are.

India is not against Islam. Please stop making ridiculous statments. If India is against Islam then Pakistan is against every other religion (oops! what am I saying it already is, I take that back).

Let`s see, if India is against Islam then Pakistan is against non-sunni Islam.

Stuka

You are seeing this in a way to suggest that Kashmiri and Pakistani are not convergent - where as they are. they have been for 54 years. Does that mean it cannot change? Of course not. If the interests of both peoples change that is, are no longer convergent, then I would still be proPakistan - I am not aware of anything that suggests that Kashmiri sentiment is proIndian, If it is pro Independence, then I should be a supporter of independence.

If you suggest that Pakistan should not have a voice for the Muslims of India, that it is improper - I would like to take the position that India can negate any Pakistani claim to speak for Muslims in india, by itself becoming a voice for Muslims inside and outside India. That would require that it renounce it`s attitude of hostility towards Islam and Pakistan would be left with not a leg to stand on.



Moral right to ``interfere``?

Are you taking the posiion that the promotion of secular liberal values around the world, or the promotion of ``human rights`` around the world, constitute ``interference`` in the internal affairs of countries. That would mean that serbs would still be killing Bosnians and kosovars. Amigo, you are infering things, I am not supporting. The fact of the matter is that very many Pakistanis have originally come from India, they have family and emotional and social and economic and religious affiliations with and in India. As for Undivided muslim population, I would like to remind you that a division became viable because of the hostility of the majority population towards the aspirations of those Muslims. I sense an anger in your post and I tell you that it is misdirected.

realpolitik?

Do we as peoples and nation states have any other problem between us besides Kashmir? Name one problem that is not awaiting the solution of Kashmir - AND Kashmir will be solved - sooner rather than later - I am very optimistic on this!

Memories

Stuka - the Muslims in concentration camps - has done a number on my psyche - I can`t get that out of my mind.

I do take your point, how many, of any of the peoples of the world, can claim victimization and tragedy - too many to count - yes I understand on a intellectual level - but not on a emotional, a gut level - I wonder if I have gotten that across -

I don`t know what to say - will you let me off the hook on this one? Will you cut me slack on this and let time pass? I have this resistence to the notion of letting this go - I can`t! so, please give me some space. I am struggling with this and if you nail me for a response, I will not, can not, give you satisfaction on this.

Ref Indians/Pakis/Muslims in US univs

YLH, why dont you go ahead and post the numbers for scholarship students at your university? As Faruk and Sameer interacts indicate, we should keep out the complex migration demographics from this comparison. The number of scholarships won from US universities should indicate how many people from various communities today make it to the academic top in either country. Knowing your amazing research skills, maybe you can also post such figures from other US universities, hell, all of US?

If I were to guess, I`d say that Indian Muslims will still fall proportionally short compared to other Indians. Perhaps its the kind of degrees they pursue; perhaps its sth more insidious. I know for a fact that muslims from my area tend to prefer medicine to engineering. (fewer schols in med than engg).

regards.

Stuka

You say,``I really admire your articles and also find the interacts ontriguing. I notice that you take an ethnic rather than religious view point of nation building, which in a sense ties a Punjabi from west Punjab to a Punjabi from east Punjab, at the expense of the respective nation. That is a strangely fascinating, as well as horrifying way of looking at a nation building process.

``

Sameer is a radical thinker and hence those who read him superficially can misunderstand him. It saddens me to see that some impetuous people choose to abuse him instead of understanding him. Allow me to elucidate some of his concepts. There were several factors that gave rise to the distinctive, relatively homogeneous cultures in Europe like geographical isolation in formative years, races of people, habits influenced by climate etc. The existence of a homogeneous culture that is markedly distinct from others was the basis of the concept of nation in Europe. The countries of South Asia are not nation states in the strictest sense of the word. Pakistan as well as India, in this sense are a confederation of nations instead of a single monolithic nation. Even practice of the same religion varies in these different native cultures according to their local customs. Many of the previous thinkers argued that imposition of a particular uniform type of code could succeed in transforming these states(India and Pak) into nation states. Unfortunately this strategy was flawed. The mores of the culture that a person internalises while growing up in it are too deep to be uprooted so easily. Eventually it leads to rebellions and insurgencies. For example, the way Punjabis or Sindhis practice Islam is considerably different from the Arabian version. If one tries to impose ``pure Islam`` of Arabian version overlooking the local customs and ways, a discord and rebellion is inevitable.

The solution that Sameer suggests to this problem is to allow cultures to flourish as they are without imposing versions alien to them. A confident and secure culture is more likely to be open and receptive than an insecure culture. Thus the people of a confident and secure Sindhi culture are more likely to be receptive of Punjabi culture. If the native cultures are allowed to flourish without any external interference, in due time the globalising factors such as economic needs will automatically result in a lot of intermixing of cultures. For example, a N.Indian going to Tamilnadu for IT job is bound to imbibe the Tamil culture and the same can be said for a Tamil who settles in Delhi driven by financial considerations over time. Thus a pan-national identity would be formed in addition to a cultural identity. This identity would be more stable and satisfying than an artificially imposed one. The bottomline is- let the natural cultures of the place flourish instead of attempting an artificial uniformity and let the forces of globalisation and modern economic needs do the rest. Therein lies the solution of a number of ills of the subcontinent.

PS I am sure Sameer can explain these concepts more clearly. If I have made any mistake, Sameer might like to correct me.

Faruk,

Thankyou for your responses I appreciate it.

Regards :)

YLH

hobbyt #197
``Please consider conversing with us, it does not always have to be about telling us how pathetic we are. ``

I am extremely curious, who exactly is this ``we``, you are talking about?

Also curious: Your statement to Sameer was a threat or accountability for what exactly?

SameerJB:

I really admire your articles and also find the interacts ontriguing. I notice that you take an ethnic rather than religious view point of nation building, which in a sense ties a Punjabi from west Punjab to a Punjabi from east Punjab, at the expense of the respective nation. That is a strangely fascinating, as well as horrifying way of looking at a nation building process.

Are you an acadamic? Are there further writings by you which may be available in a public domain?

Dulla Bhatti Sahib: Thank you for your kind post. I can`t wait to rub my friend`s face in the dirt. I kept asking him how he was so sure that you are a comrade. He just cryptically said, `` Mai comradan dey dimaag nu pehchanda han`` Now I will show him how much he knows. :) Cheers

HobbyTy:

I have been following your debate on the role of Pakistan as a voice for Indian muslims, and fail to understand how the debate even began. HobbyTy, you say that you are Pro Pakistan and Pro Kashmir. How can you be both? What if the interests of Kashmiris and Pakistan do not co-incide? Do you automatically delete the aspirations of Kashmiris Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists when you say you are Pro Kashmir? Wasn`t it the Pak Army that prevented a JKLF inspired movement to cross the LOC. It was the Pak army that fired at Kashmiris then, because the interests of The Pakistan State did not match the immediate aspirations of at least a section of the Kashmiris. In a similar sense, what if the political, economic and social interests of Pakistan do not co-incide with the Interests of Indian Muslims. Who then is more of a priority?

You say that you need to have memories, to ensure that what has happened once may not happen again. Is that relevant only for the Muslims or for all of us? At what point do those memories cease to have validity? Is Zafar supposed to remember the muslims who were killed in Delhi and Bihar? Or am I supposed to remember the Hindus and Sikhs who were killed in West Punjab? Who exactly is supposed to remember exactly what? Ironically, it is the Hindu right wing in India which wants to dwell on ``Memories`` but those memories will undermine our national interest. I know that because at one point of my life, I was one of them. By your very statement about Pakistan being the voice of Indian Muslims, don`t you undermine Pakistani nationhood? After all, the voice of the ``Indian Muslims`` would have astually been stronger in Undivided India than it is now. Since Pakistan is now a seperate soveriegn nation, what moral right does it have to interfere in the internal affair of another country? The question becomes moot ofcourse if the intent is not moral but sheer real politik. The Muslims of India made their decision in 1947, just as you made yours. Both will now chart out their seperate destinies. You as a Pakistani, and us as Indians. You may question my right to speak on behalf of Indian muslims, but your opinion does not count simply because you are not Indian.

Regards

Stuka

dost-mittar #175: ``But I would have to concede that there is very little opposition to Pakistan being governed by hudood either in the English language press or here at Chowk``

I would be interested to find out how you have come to this conclusion.

Every english newspaper in Pakistan has written against ridiculous Hudood ordinances. And most, if not all contributors on Chowk, more than likely oppose it. Feel free to take a poll.

These Hudood ordinances were more a wish-list of Zia ul Haq than anything else. Just like the Shariah Bill was a wish list of Nawaz Sharif. The first did not have anything to do with Hudood and the later did not have anything to do with Shariah. They were both attempts to consolidate power. The average Pakistani is too busy trying to make ends meet, and probably not too interested in legal ordinances etc.

Saminashah

Samina, I have been very particular in saying that hate speech, speech that engenders hate and fear is what I find objectionable. I do look forward to reading Sameer, I have never suggested that he stop, I do however; suggest that he is responsible for what he writes. This is a rather fair position, is it not? I have not for a minute suggested that Sameer withhold an opinion or to change his opinion. I have offered counters that challenge the validity of the positions he has taken - I think this too is a rather fair position to take. Is it not?

From any number of my posts, you will see clearly, that the I see Islam as very relevant to our lives today, that I have no time for those who are closed minded, bigotted, who obfuscate Islam from Muslims, who deny teaching, debate and discourse. But this should not blind us to the sure fact that we must hold ourself and each other accountable. Afetrall, Here I am, I am accountable for the ideas I put forward. Who on chowk will say that I do not take criticism or that I will not change my opinion, therefore I remain responsible and accountable, why not others?

So, you see I am not suggesting that we shut down any thinker or writer, quite the opposite. I am suggesting that we all have a responsibilty towards each other and should be aware that we are accountable. Those who suggest that they are beyond responsibility are being dishonest with all of us. There is no such thing as a freedom or a right, that is not enabled by responsibility.

I invite you to check out the posts by some Indians and some Pakistanis to gauge their idea of tolerance and diversity - ``You can have any opinion, as long as it is the same as ours. You are accountable for your ideas, but you have no right to suggest that we should be held accountable for our ideas`` -

These are dangerous notions and will lead us to no good. To the degree that we stand silent before such ideas, we shall be complict in the propagation of such ideas. Please do not include me in that degenerate group of individuals who would deny the freedom of conscience.

Banjara

Read me on other boards and will note that I have from day one, condemned the abandonment of the Bihari Pakistani in Bangladesh and condemn the influence and power of feudal landlords who are instumental in opposing the repatriation of the Pakistanis in Bangladesh and have been instrumental in ensuring that the migration of Muslims from India to Pakistan will be stopped.

Many Indians have taken offense at the notion that Pakistan will continue to raise it`s voice on behalf of Muslims in India - This is an inappropriate response - the appropriate response would be to acknowledge this fact and to work to create conditions wherein such a notion would not hold true. Is this not so?

Reply #: 307 Truth

``the little i have read of bharatiya muslim convinces me that he is a hindu bigot masquerading as a muslim.``

Thats the beauty of the internet. Talking of masqueraders , I think Sameer JB is a Jan Sanghi Hindu masquerading as a Pakistani Punjabi.

For Pakistanis, its Aligarh not Aligadh. That is banyaspeak and always a giveaway.

[``To this day Aligadh Muslim University is better than Karachi or Punjab University in many disciplines``]

http://chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=sameer_jul2001&n=20#reply167

Sadna

You seem never to converse – it’s always “on guard”, thrust, parry, and “touché” with you. And this is sad. Please consider conversing with us, it does not always have to be about telling us how pathetic we are.

Was The Hague tribunal set up Muslims alone? No of course it was not, the question is not who set it up, but that it was set up. And yes, certainly, Muslims who are guilty of such crimes should certainly be made to answer before such a court.

A couple of points of my own – Any country in which Muslims reside in substantial numbers is a Muslim country, that does not preclude it from also being a Christian, Jewish or even a Hindu country. Islam and Muslims are not confined to just one nation state or a region, please be aware of this. And I suggest that those who offer “lip service” to ideas of freedom, tolerance and liberty would do well to first study such ideas in depth. Such ideas are not for the shallow. Such ideas come wrapped up in the concepts of responsibility, that is, accountability. Freedom without justice is the rule of Jungle Laws. Tolerance without responsibility for one’s own actions and thoughts, is an impossibility. Liberty without responsibility is tyranny. I agree that society should value virtues such as freedom of thought, speech and enterprise and would add that without responsibility, such ideas become self serving shells.

About industriousness and freedom – I absolutely agree the two move in tandem. Surely, you agree that there is no conditional or absolute freedom to engage in hate speech? Freedom of speech does not mean yelling “fire” in a closed theatre. Political freedom does not mean engaging in the wholesale looting of the national wealth. Remember responsibility! Similarly, the proper response to adversity is not surrender, but determination.

Threats –

That you are determined never to give in to threats is commendable, especially, as I hold similarly. That you have determined, even after my posts (that I and others who hold similar views will hold individuals responsible/accountable), that you should continue to misrepresent this position as a threat - well – why would any innocent feel threatened by responsibility/accountability?

Do you go to school or work in a company or for a government agency? Are you not held responsible or accountable for your work? Or is that a threat as well?

So, touché! The vicious, fundamentalist, Islamist, threatening, hobbyty stands pierced and shredded.

(yawn)

about fairdinkum #5

Riba – I will hold that we should allow some more time for a fuller interpretation, that is are we discussing Interest or usury. The die is already cast I fear, and it will more likely mean interest.

But Fair enough, question raised-

Allow me to raise one myself – Does the concept of socially conscious investing not exist in the West? Are Muslims alone in wanting a more socially conscious, more economically just system?

www.iht.com/articles/20198.html

The above site maybe helpful in furthering our understanding.You will note that interest in such a system exists beyond just Islamia. Happy reading

``If any body should understand about suffering from auto immune disease it is you.You are not only against & there worst enemies for Muslim of the world but you are like those antibodies that attack its own ,born bred, & brought up by Pakistan & pakistanis.You are an internal cancer if persist & infect all muslims will kill as sure as AIDS.Buddy you are a carrier of metaphorical hiv+ve & there is no hope for your redmntion.AS suggested ,you belong in Ludhiyana or some Punjab town as far away from Pakistan border as possible

``

Alas, I never thought someone could say so for Sameer.