Coming Home to a Foreign Land

Re:Reply #: 491

ylh,

``Yes sir India is secular, where the secular Prime Minister of the secular people of this secular state has declared the secular national will of the secular people to `Build a temple over the Babri Mosque...``.

Ylh,

The above statement was made under political compulsions. ABV and others need to reassure the Sangh Parivar from time to time that something is being done. If it was really a national will to build a temple, he would not be wasting time in uttering those words. The temple would have been built long ago. Politicians do a fine balancing act now and then, when they feel the need to reassure their constituency. In as much as that statement was wrong (coming from a P.M), we know what is really behind it. As the saying in Hindi/Urdu goes: ``hathi ke danth khane ke aur, dikhane ke aur``. The matter is pending in court. The day BJP builds a temple at that site without consensus will be a sad day for India.

sridhar

#459 Gowardhan

Hobbyty`s tirades may not be all that rare. His points seem to be (now i`m basing this on your excerpts of what he writes) that hindutva feeds the jihadis in pakistan. If india would control the fanatics and be kind to muslims and free kashmir, then there`d be no more problems with jihadis or pakistan. It`s a point of view that verges on desperation and says you fix your problems and they`ll fix mine also. You have to admit that to some extent we indians also tend to blame pakistan wholesale for all our problems in kashmir.

Re:Reply #: 482

sadna,

You are right. So far no Pakistani has answered a question i had asked in another forum viz why are they not condemning jehad. Do they not see jehad harm their own country some day? Can these guys hope that if Mushy encourages jehad in Kashmir, it will not spill over into Pakistan. This is like saying i am injecting poison in one limb but i will see to it that it won`t affect the rest of the body. That just does not happen.

sridhar

Re:Reply #: 480

hobbyty

``But if Advani has right to speech, so do I.``

Sure buddy,

Keep talking to us but please talk in a language we can understand. After all, what is your bottom line? That a section of Indian politics is taking a fundamentalist color. None of Indians in the chowk would deny that. This cannot be extrapolated to mean the entire country is becoming fundamentalist. Believe me, day after day, when i was in Madras, i used to read editorials and news in ``The Hindu`` condemning this recent trend. Such things have occurred in the past. Some states will continue to elect people like Bal Thackeray. Until a time politics in India becomes value-based and not cult or personality based, these things will continue to occur. Poverty is rampant in India. That is why, people are more concerned with bread and butter issues than RJB/BM issue. L.K.Advani tried his best to unite hindus under a very emotive issue. He did increase the party tally but failed to win a majority. Had he won a majority then, he and not Vajpayee would be P.M today. BJP know it cannot win a majority on its own and needs help of secular parties. It will have to change its ideology and present a secular face which people like to see or vanish into oblivion. The choice people have given them is clear.

Sridhar

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Gowardhan, Upman etc

Nothing would make me more happy if some day, I was allowed to exchange views with my Indian counterparts in a civil way, discussing secularism and democracy. However, most Indians seem to be concerned with bashing Jinnah. Had you people really wanted democracy or secularism in Pakistan, you would realize that despite whatever misgivings you might have about Jinnah, he is the only shield that the liberals, minorities and secularists in Pakistan have against the forces of the religious right who were ironically against the creation of Pakistan in the first place.

If you wish to talk at me, I will talk back at you, and believe me I will burn myself up but I will not let you get away with anything.

If however you really wish to talk of secularism and democracy and wish to support the liberals and secularists in Pakistan then

1) Do not turn us against India by bashing and lying about Jinnah and Pakistan.

2) Do not keep rubbing your at times misplaced superiority complex in our faces.

-YLH

Dost Mittar

``Hindus are pathetic`` - ``Hindus are cowardly``- Dost, I like you, find this assertion disgusting. This in not my assertion but of Hindutva philosophy -

It is hurtful to me that you wish to ascribe to me such an assertion. Please reconsider, especially since it is not true that the assertion is mine, rather it is from the VHP and BJP websites. I really want you to know that you did me an injury and that I did not expect such a thing from you. Please reconsider.

Shammi:

who believes such things? Shammi the dynamics of this kind of beliefs are not honest inquiry but rather it is the dynamics of emotion. An Emotional appeal is the most effective appeal and it`s dynamics are not clear headheaded inquiry or principaled inquiry - In this context, such a message becomes grounded in the subconscious. Notice, the point where in Hinduvata philosophy does not even acknowledge ground for Muslim concern - after all they are taking back their property and Muslims should be grateful it`s not worse. Ofcourse no clear thinking person will entertain such a logic, but again, we are talking about an emotional appeal, such an appeal is not targeted to the logical facility and large numbers do respond to it.

Shammi, Dost, harimanau, YLH, MaheshG, Gohwardan, Stuka, Narain, Zafar, Tahmed, Id, Hamidm, Anarayan, et al - (there too many you to name)

The response to the position of about ideas... I am getting is ``yes, but yours smell worse`` - I am not argueing that it does not - it may well smell worse - but note that a simple thing like acknowledging this fact has become painful - I tell you that indeed, Author Suraiya is right is suggesting that the Indian mind is closing. On these boards both Pakistanis and Indians expose Pakistan, intellectual (and not so intellectual)trends with in pakistani society open to examination and ridicule, admiration and condemnation - The simple pointing out that the creation of a false history and the painting of Islamic history as a tragic period for Hindus is dangerous has merited a response in which I am Pompous, hypocrite, shameless, bigot, fundamentalist, etc - I urge you all to examine such responses - Is not the premise, a serious premise? to the degree that it is substantiated and it is, and to the degree that it effects vast numbers of persons in and outside India - I contend that it is serious and the response should also be serious - If our intention is honest inquiry.

I have pointed out that this conversation is not about secularism or sectarianism but about the proliferation of hateful ideas. This should have been our focus. It seems to me that it is undenialable that the attachment of anti Islamic notions to Hindutva philosohpy is hateful. A response that I, hobbyty am hateful. OK, I am hateful - but does it make the premise any less false? For how long will personal attacks suffice for positions for grown men? What does it say about the kind of spirit ``which brooks no dissent nor admits any echo of the profound resonance of doubt.``

Shammi suggests that this debate will go on and on - there is no need for this debate to go on and on - Is there a Law and order problem in Pakistan - the answer is obvious to all - what is the point in denying it, it`s the truth - similarly what is the point in denying that ideas hostile to Muslims and islam are gaining ground within indian culture and the Hindu psyche? Afterall, the spirited (and mean spirited at that) reflexive defense that some have engaged in, seems to be a confirmation, does it not, that many of these notions have seeped into the national psyche. But if you find this premise unsupportable - OK. I will accept that but would request that you consider, this was meant to be a conversation and not a savaging of each other.

Gowardhan:

What choice do I have ? Should I support a Hindu Bigot like yourself instead who is against the very essence of my soul: Pakistan?

-YLH

Grow up Mahesh G,

You people keep shoving excrement down our throats and when we finally retaliate, and give you a taste of your own medicine, you people start jumping up and down claiming to be unjustly treated.

Shove it ok?

Neptune:

I must say that your observations are right on the money, but I am not sure if Studebaker and AAmir can be the same individual[that`ll be very disappointing]. I like Studebaker`s posts and have interacted with him on Chowk for sometime. He is a very nice and decent fellow, whereas AAMir is sarapa`ae`rudeness-and-uncouthness. I was seriously concerned to read your take on both and that`s why I mentioned the analogy on J&H.

Take Care

Neptune:

I must say that your observations are right on the money, but I am not sure if Studebaker and AAmir can be the same individual[that`ll be very disappointing]. I like Studebaker`s posts and have interacted with him on Chowk for sometime. He is a very nice and decent fellow, whereas AAMir is sarapa`ae`rudeness-and-uncouthness. I was seriously concerned to read your take on both and that`s why I mentioned the analogy on J&H.

Take Care

Guys,

Billy Joel must have been visiting an Indian household when he was inspired to write this song:

We didn`t start the fire,

She was always burning,

And my ass was working

We didn`t start the fire,

Though the Mrs ignite it

But we tried to fight it.

Ha ha ha

YLH, this is you.

1) Pakistanis are never taught to hate the cruel and pathetic Hindus.

2) Pakistani education system never tells us to generalize like every Indian does.

3) India can never be a democracy because every Hindu elected to power is a bigot, every muslim elected to power is a mullah, every christian elected to power is a fanatic and every sikh elected to power is plainly stupid.

4) We pakistanis are very open minded unlike you pathetic Hindus.

5) Pakistanis are greater than you pathetic and cruel Hindus because I want Pakistan to be secular when it is clearly not whereas you guys pretend to be secular by electing bigots from every religion to power.

YLH, you are one big nutcase. If only you can recognize yourself as the one you are railing loudly against.

shammi 488

[But how many people subscribe to it?]

You are giving too much space to Hobbyty. Even if a majority of people subscribe to it, how is it different from what he and Pakistanis have been doing for 54 years?

If people like him accuse India of doing exactly what they have been doing for decades, can we give their words any credibility?

We discuss these issues because these are Indian issues. Pakistanis dont know anything about secularism or democracy. For them these are only words whose dictionary meaning they might learn.

ylh

You will prefer Hobbyty. That is the reason why your country will never change. It can not change because the most liberal Pakistani like you prefers a Islamist bigot who sees the world as us against the rest. That explains why Islamist societies are stuck in the mud. You are programmed against thinking of people in equal terms.