A Pakistani School’s Visit to India
Alia Amirali August 16, 2001
#887 Posted by stuka on August 29, 2001 4:22:31 pm
Zafar
Ok, maybe I`m thick, but I still don`t see the connection between Taliban and Pedophelia. I know the conversation on Chowk meanders, but this like the Ganges flowing in South Western Autralia. Heck, nothing meanders this much
Ok, maybe I`m thick, but I still don`t see the connection between Taliban and Pedophelia. I know the conversation on Chowk meanders, but this like the Ganges flowing in South Western Autralia. Heck, nothing meanders this much
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#885 Posted by harimau on August 29, 2001 4:22:31 pm
Ref SameerJB #: 915
[In Shahbaz Sharif’s first week as Punjab CM, I saw him in a white Corolla at a red signal on The Mall. No motorcade, no hooters, no protocol fleet.]
No ``hooters``?
``Hooters``, as in the restaurants?
``Hooters``, as they otherwise mean?
In either case, I feel sorry for Pakistanis.
[In Shahbaz Sharif’s first week as Punjab CM, I saw him in a white Corolla at a red signal on The Mall. No motorcade, no hooters, no protocol fleet.]
No ``hooters``?
``Hooters``, as in the restaurants?
``Hooters``, as they otherwise mean?
In either case, I feel sorry for Pakistanis.
#884 Posted by stuka on August 29, 2001 10:36:15 am
Farangi Kush
``Begging & grovelling will not get them anywhere.If they cannot convince themselves to die for honour then they are destined to live in squalour & misery.``
Kaun bheek mangta hai. Look at Indian track record and compare to Pakistan.
Pakistan joins SEATO and CENTO. Pakistan does bidding of Americans. Pakistan alloes CIA operatives virtual independence. Pakistan gives up its own citizens to US for trial.
India gives bhaashan to US on Non Alignment. India takes weapons on Rupee basis from Soviet Union. India explodes Nukes unilaterally. US imposes sanctions and them takes them away without anything in return.
Result: India gets speeches calling it traditional ally, and unilateral waiver of sanctions. US President comes, visits, goes back, and visits again for Eathquake relief.
We don`t like Laskar Tayyaba, US takes initiatives to fire missiles over Pakistan air space without asking for permission.
Pakistan gets Bhaashan on how not to become failed state.
Batao, Bhikari Kaun????
Tell me one thing that India has done for any country which goes AGAINST its self interest. ONE THING???
I can tell you multiple things that Pakistan has done which go against its own self-respect and honor for U.S.
Paaji, jey tussi kaindey ho kee gorey duniya da fuddu banandey hain, tey unhanu gaaliyan na kaddo, kuch seekho.
Look at the Brits, lapdogs of the Americans, and look at the French, who have always gone their own way, and yet mantain friendly relationship with the US.
``Begging & grovelling will not get them anywhere.If they cannot convince themselves to die for honour then they are destined to live in squalour & misery.``
Kaun bheek mangta hai. Look at Indian track record and compare to Pakistan.
Pakistan joins SEATO and CENTO. Pakistan does bidding of Americans. Pakistan alloes CIA operatives virtual independence. Pakistan gives up its own citizens to US for trial.
India gives bhaashan to US on Non Alignment. India takes weapons on Rupee basis from Soviet Union. India explodes Nukes unilaterally. US imposes sanctions and them takes them away without anything in return.
Result: India gets speeches calling it traditional ally, and unilateral waiver of sanctions. US President comes, visits, goes back, and visits again for Eathquake relief.
We don`t like Laskar Tayyaba, US takes initiatives to fire missiles over Pakistan air space without asking for permission.
Pakistan gets Bhaashan on how not to become failed state.
Batao, Bhikari Kaun????
Tell me one thing that India has done for any country which goes AGAINST its self interest. ONE THING???
I can tell you multiple things that Pakistan has done which go against its own self-respect and honor for U.S.
Paaji, jey tussi kaindey ho kee gorey duniya da fuddu banandey hain, tey unhanu gaaliyan na kaddo, kuch seekho.
Look at the Brits, lapdogs of the Americans, and look at the French, who have always gone their own way, and yet mantain friendly relationship with the US.
#883 Posted by rsaxena on August 29, 2001 10:36:15 am
Isn`t it haram for Chowk to be flashing that casino net ad and tempting all its Muslim visitors to gamble?
#882 Posted by hobbyty on August 29, 2001 10:36:15 am
PM
``I could point out the ultimate irony in a devout Muslim asking someone to `justify` pedophilia, but then, I hardly relish the fate of my late uncle, Salamat Maseeh.``
Well since you have gotten into this - will you explain the ``ultimate irony``? and What happened to your Uncle, Salamat?
``I could point out the ultimate irony in a devout Muslim asking someone to `justify` pedophilia, but then, I hardly relish the fate of my late uncle, Salamat Maseeh.``
Well since you have gotten into this - will you explain the ``ultimate irony``? and What happened to your Uncle, Salamat?
#881 Posted by jay on August 29, 2001 10:36:15 am
Alia,
A QUESTION OF VALUES,
Alia, you are a school student, is there any one setting you any role models, any stars in the school system. The following is from dawn of today. Most indian will find the following item hard to believe.
Cash awards for position holders
Recently, the government has announced cash awards for the position holders of the respective boards and universities. This is indeed a very encouraging step. But it must be pointed out what happened previously. In December 1996, BZU Multan announced B.Sc results but the position holders were not contacted by the university and congratulated. Honouring the position holders with certificates, medals or cash awards not only boosts their morale but also encourages the newcomers to compete for better performance.
//is there any degree program in india with out a gold medal.
A QUESTION OF VALUES,
Alia, you are a school student, is there any one setting you any role models, any stars in the school system. The following is from dawn of today. Most indian will find the following item hard to believe.
Cash awards for position holders
Recently, the government has announced cash awards for the position holders of the respective boards and universities. This is indeed a very encouraging step. But it must be pointed out what happened previously. In December 1996, BZU Multan announced B.Sc results but the position holders were not contacted by the university and congratulated. Honouring the position holders with certificates, medals or cash awards not only boosts their morale but also encourages the newcomers to compete for better performance.
//is there any degree program in india with out a gold medal.
#880 Posted by saminashah on August 29, 2001 10:36:15 am
Sadna
re: #896
Sobering points. What I find echoes the theme that women and girls become slaves of a kind, viz Afghanistan, is that the most revolutionary act is to teach a girl-child. Teachers, parents and community networks work toghether to secretly set up threadbare secret schools for thieir girl children.
In Iran, under Khomeini, females were eventually banned from ``masculine`` studies such as science, medicine, etc., and restricted to ``womanly`` curricula such as homemaking, and educating their children to become jehadis.
regards
regards
re: #896
Sobering points. What I find echoes the theme that women and girls become slaves of a kind, viz Afghanistan, is that the most revolutionary act is to teach a girl-child. Teachers, parents and community networks work toghether to secretly set up threadbare secret schools for thieir girl children.
In Iran, under Khomeini, females were eventually banned from ``masculine`` studies such as science, medicine, etc., and restricted to ``womanly`` curricula such as homemaking, and educating their children to become jehadis.
regards
regards
#879 Posted by PM on August 29, 2001 10:36:15 am
On faith and Certitiude
“I was raised with a lot of beliefs, but with little faith” – Karen Armstrong, in “A History of God.”
Dear Hobbyty:
The intuitive and profound truths in the generalities of the Quran and Bible never cease to amaze me. Except, maybe when I am `in strong faith` and able to see the Hand at work, and in touch with the Source of that truth myself.
Needless to say, I speak not of empirical truths, and therein lies, IMO, the essence of Faith.: To be able to trust something as being true, to even believe in it, without certitude or verifiability. The question as to the basis of that trust (is it something planted in our subconscious through conditioning, or rather something innate in us as humans) is one that has occupied me quite a bit, but ironically, it took taking a little ‘blind leap’ (repeatedly) to find that the proof is simply in the pudding. Perhaps ‘blind leap’ is not descriptive of the ‘letting go’ experience. Perhaps all we need to let go of to ‘enter into faith’ is our inherited obsession with the empirical and the rational --- and a return to the intuitive truths that we have gained through, to borrow from F_K, genetic osmosis. (F_K, let me take the opportunity to say that there is more that I admire in your musings than I despise)
At about 18, I came upon and Eric Fromm book that nicely expressed my own dissatisfaction with the conventional equating of faith with blind belief. Fromm associated Faith with optimism and trust, rather than with blind belief which was more or less the benchmark of faith in the Catholicism taught to us. Soroush is accurate in his observation that “In the history of Christianity, for its part, the role played by certainty in faith is so negative that a great thinker like Thomas Aquinas basically saw uncertainty as the very terrain and bedrock of faith”. For most of post-Nicene Christianity, faith has indeed has indeed has lack of certitude as a necessary ingredient. This, in fact, is in stark contrast to the “faith” preached by Jesus himself, which he repeatedly alludes to as a general attitude – characterized by hope and trust. In ‘curing’ a man bedridden for years, he proclaims, “Your faith has saved you”. On encountering a Roman officer who pleads with to “just say the word” to heal his son, Jesus remarks that not even among his own people has he seen such great faith. And again, he attributes the ‘cure’ to the man’s faith. In another passage, Jesus remarks, perhaps metaphorically, that ‘faith can move mountains’. The point is not the miraculous powers of Jesus—that can be left to be debated by the sticklers for historical truth. (It is helpful to understand that in the story-telling traditions of the 1st century Palestine, the historical authenticity of a story was not nearly as important as the ‘moral truth’ therein.) The point is that faith here is not a set of beliefs subscribed to as a formula for salvation in the afterworld. It was a very here-and-now, and, as Soroush remarks, ACTIVE aspect of one’s orientation to the world. (Though, admittedly, for Soroush, the object of faith is not the world itself but presumably a Higher being. Resolution? Perhaps faith (trust, devotion etc) in the Object colours one’s relation to the world at large.)
The formulation and formalization of theology and dogma by the Church starting form the third century effectively changed the meaning of faith, and, IMO, the essence of Christianity, which effectively conformed to the framework of Aristotelian metaphysics. Henceforth, the only place where ‘faith-based’ Christianity found expression was in the monasteries, where mystics explored faith in a manner parallel to the Sufis.
The past thirty or so years have, however, seen a re-emphasis on the intuitive, affective nature of faith, especially in the West, where I think the Rationalism movement has run its course and people still find the spiritual cupboard empty. (Is this a necessary, natural progression of spirituality? I don’t know) “Walking/Moving in Faith” are in common usage in he new language of faith, replacing ‘belief’ and ‘dogma’ as cornerstones of the faith (noun). The paradigm is indeed shifting--one has only to visit one on the growing number of ‘Christian’ churches mushrooming in North America to witness it. The eclectic nature of these ministries, falling back on traditions from other religions and scriptures, is truly refreshing. The church I go to in Atlanta frequently has preachers who will quote from the Quran and Hindu scripture/tradition. There is a minimum, nay absence of dogma, and although one is not required to check in one’s left brain at the door, the focus of spirituality is on developing and inculcating a certain consciousness (often referred to as “Christ” consciousness, though the adjective there is by no means a definitive one).
The depth/ strength of the consciousness is not binary. There are degrees. IMO, this consciousness is not different from what Soroush describes as faith, and inculcating it the very same thing as “remembering Allah” as exhorted in the Quran. I know of at least one Hindu “philosophy” whose goal is this similar “constant remembrance”. The common – and vital – aspect of all these expressions or observances of faith is a certain activeness, as opposed to the passivity of belief, be it of the ‘blind’ or ‘proven’ variety.
(As an aside (or perhaps this is totally related), I find that, save for Iran, the Muslim world seems to be going increasingly in the direction of belief-based faith, a natural outcome of which I think is increasing exclusivity, self-righteousness and intolerance. This, in my opinion, weakens the ‘bruised Muslim Psyche’ thesis. Would anyone care to comment, preferably without getting needlessly defensive/hostile?)
In conclusion, the die-hard skeptic in me would like to add that the same intuition from which springs faith also dictates that this ‘faith’, while not depending on Reason, must never offend it either. Then again, what seems reasonable and rationale one day might be questioned another.
Where is that fairdinkum guy when we could really use his input on a subject?? :)
rgds,
PM
“I was raised with a lot of beliefs, but with little faith” – Karen Armstrong, in “A History of God.”
Dear Hobbyty:
The intuitive and profound truths in the generalities of the Quran and Bible never cease to amaze me. Except, maybe when I am `in strong faith` and able to see the Hand at work, and in touch with the Source of that truth myself.
Needless to say, I speak not of empirical truths, and therein lies, IMO, the essence of Faith.: To be able to trust something as being true, to even believe in it, without certitude or verifiability. The question as to the basis of that trust (is it something planted in our subconscious through conditioning, or rather something innate in us as humans) is one that has occupied me quite a bit, but ironically, it took taking a little ‘blind leap’ (repeatedly) to find that the proof is simply in the pudding. Perhaps ‘blind leap’ is not descriptive of the ‘letting go’ experience. Perhaps all we need to let go of to ‘enter into faith’ is our inherited obsession with the empirical and the rational --- and a return to the intuitive truths that we have gained through, to borrow from F_K, genetic osmosis. (F_K, let me take the opportunity to say that there is more that I admire in your musings than I despise)
At about 18, I came upon and Eric Fromm book that nicely expressed my own dissatisfaction with the conventional equating of faith with blind belief. Fromm associated Faith with optimism and trust, rather than with blind belief which was more or less the benchmark of faith in the Catholicism taught to us. Soroush is accurate in his observation that “In the history of Christianity, for its part, the role played by certainty in faith is so negative that a great thinker like Thomas Aquinas basically saw uncertainty as the very terrain and bedrock of faith”. For most of post-Nicene Christianity, faith has indeed has indeed has lack of certitude as a necessary ingredient. This, in fact, is in stark contrast to the “faith” preached by Jesus himself, which he repeatedly alludes to as a general attitude – characterized by hope and trust. In ‘curing’ a man bedridden for years, he proclaims, “Your faith has saved you”. On encountering a Roman officer who pleads with to “just say the word” to heal his son, Jesus remarks that not even among his own people has he seen such great faith. And again, he attributes the ‘cure’ to the man’s faith. In another passage, Jesus remarks, perhaps metaphorically, that ‘faith can move mountains’. The point is not the miraculous powers of Jesus—that can be left to be debated by the sticklers for historical truth. (It is helpful to understand that in the story-telling traditions of the 1st century Palestine, the historical authenticity of a story was not nearly as important as the ‘moral truth’ therein.) The point is that faith here is not a set of beliefs subscribed to as a formula for salvation in the afterworld. It was a very here-and-now, and, as Soroush remarks, ACTIVE aspect of one’s orientation to the world. (Though, admittedly, for Soroush, the object of faith is not the world itself but presumably a Higher being. Resolution? Perhaps faith (trust, devotion etc) in the Object colours one’s relation to the world at large.)
The formulation and formalization of theology and dogma by the Church starting form the third century effectively changed the meaning of faith, and, IMO, the essence of Christianity, which effectively conformed to the framework of Aristotelian metaphysics. Henceforth, the only place where ‘faith-based’ Christianity found expression was in the monasteries, where mystics explored faith in a manner parallel to the Sufis.
The past thirty or so years have, however, seen a re-emphasis on the intuitive, affective nature of faith, especially in the West, where I think the Rationalism movement has run its course and people still find the spiritual cupboard empty. (Is this a necessary, natural progression of spirituality? I don’t know) “Walking/Moving in Faith” are in common usage in he new language of faith, replacing ‘belief’ and ‘dogma’ as cornerstones of the faith (noun). The paradigm is indeed shifting--one has only to visit one on the growing number of ‘Christian’ churches mushrooming in North America to witness it. The eclectic nature of these ministries, falling back on traditions from other religions and scriptures, is truly refreshing. The church I go to in Atlanta frequently has preachers who will quote from the Quran and Hindu scripture/tradition. There is a minimum, nay absence of dogma, and although one is not required to check in one’s left brain at the door, the focus of spirituality is on developing and inculcating a certain consciousness (often referred to as “Christ” consciousness, though the adjective there is by no means a definitive one).
The depth/ strength of the consciousness is not binary. There are degrees. IMO, this consciousness is not different from what Soroush describes as faith, and inculcating it the very same thing as “remembering Allah” as exhorted in the Quran. I know of at least one Hindu “philosophy” whose goal is this similar “constant remembrance”. The common – and vital – aspect of all these expressions or observances of faith is a certain activeness, as opposed to the passivity of belief, be it of the ‘blind’ or ‘proven’ variety.
(As an aside (or perhaps this is totally related), I find that, save for Iran, the Muslim world seems to be going increasingly in the direction of belief-based faith, a natural outcome of which I think is increasing exclusivity, self-righteousness and intolerance. This, in my opinion, weakens the ‘bruised Muslim Psyche’ thesis. Would anyone care to comment, preferably without getting needlessly defensive/hostile?)
In conclusion, the die-hard skeptic in me would like to add that the same intuition from which springs faith also dictates that this ‘faith’, while not depending on Reason, must never offend it either. Then again, what seems reasonable and rationale one day might be questioned another.
Where is that fairdinkum guy when we could really use his input on a subject?? :)
rgds,
PM
#878 Posted by hobbyty on August 29, 2001 10:36:15 am
Farangi Kush
Thank you for the response to my post #802. You will note, perhaps with interest, it seems to caught the marxists nihilist, and certain Muslims, off guard.
The relationship between faith and certitude is not necessarily one of compatablity. Faith, composed of love, trust, humility, submission and doubt (all include the element of will) admits of degree, is active, certitude, by definition cannot incorporate degree or will, is passive.
Strength of faith is the mercy of God, the reward of the believer. By definition, faith cannot grow without the vulnerablity of love, trust, humility, submission and doubt - can dos and donts afford the experience of such?
Of course do`s and don`ts are valid elements of all religious beliefs - but clearly, faith, stands in a different category. Faith, admits of degree, and it is proper to think of it not as noun but as a verb.
Obscuritanist, dogmatic interpretations are designed to equate do`s and don`ts with the experience of faith.
Today we are witness to a good number of fissures within Islamia. Lacking a reasoned faith, confronted by social and ideological constructs they understand superfically, if at all, some have turned to marxist and nihilistic justifications for their predicament, even existence - as we are witness - notice only two posters had given some thought to the question ``what is happiness, it`s role in society and within an Islamic context`` - one conscious of their dissonance, sought the affirmation of the cultural context of their experience of Islam, the other found the question too taxing, and sought refuge from inquiry in the proposition ``by god, when i travel, i want certitude -`` and yet this same would not, as yet, realize that certitude (as in religious, not scientific) requires no journey, no risk, no love, no humility, no submission, NO WILL.
This conversation began with the proposition that we had identified the need to make the transition from the traditional to the modern (from the passive to the active) and seek to examine and build upon the ideas, concepts, premises that would serve as our bridge between the conceptual realities of the traditional and modern, that we encounter. I am sure that many more individuals have not responded to these posts, because, they, perhaps for the first time ever, have confronted the idea, ``what does it mean to be a Muslim?`` and are becoming aware that an answer to that question may begin by examining their understanding of the dynamics of beliefs, faith, certitude and it`s non-requirement, the plurality of religions and the plurality of salvation.
#877 Posted by Urstruly on August 29, 2001 10:23:50 am
Sattar # 899
THanks for summing up all the interacts. I hereby declare you victorious in this debate so far. I accept that I am desperate and I am beat and you have done it fair and square. Now can we please structure this argument as I proposed in my #869 and before that Or otherwise I will have to retract myself from this debate (with my tail between my legs, off course).
THanks for summing up all the interacts. I hereby declare you victorious in this debate so far. I accept that I am desperate and I am beat and you have done it fair and square. Now can we please structure this argument as I proposed in my #869 and before that Or otherwise I will have to retract myself from this debate (with my tail between my legs, off course).
#876 Posted by PM on August 29, 2001 4:27:54 am
re. soysauce`s queries and uloo`s rants on pedophilia
Soy, this in an interrsting article on the issue of homosexuality and lowering of the age-of-consent: http://www.nambla.de/pederasty.htm
Whether or not you agree with the author`s viewpoint, there are some facts that counter uloo`s banter:
excerpt: ``A more recent example of this tendency to seek improvements for some at the expense of others was the decision of the state of Wisconsin in May 1983 to decriminalize consensual homosexual sex between adults. Tacked onto the measure was an amendment that increased from a misdemeanor to a felony sex between and adult and a teenager of 16 or 17 years of age!``
rgds,
PM
Soy, this in an interrsting article on the issue of homosexuality and lowering of the age-of-consent: http://www.nambla.de/pederasty.htm
Whether or not you agree with the author`s viewpoint, there are some facts that counter uloo`s banter:
excerpt: ``A more recent example of this tendency to seek improvements for some at the expense of others was the decision of the state of Wisconsin in May 1983 to decriminalize consensual homosexual sex between adults. Tacked onto the measure was an amendment that increased from a misdemeanor to a felony sex between and adult and a teenager of 16 or 17 years of age!``
rgds,
PM
#875 Posted by PM on August 29, 2001 4:27:54 am
Re. Uloo#1 #875
``RE: PM # 843
What has Islam got to do with the fact that you want to do unnatural acts with children 14 years or younger?``
What have my SUPPOSED preferences got to do with the issues being discussed here? I brought up the issue of sexual laws to illustrate F_K`s hypocrisy; nothing more. You obviously seem to have a more prurient interest in these matters? Get some help!
As for bringing Islam into it, I didn`t. I questioned whether ``your`` islam was threatened again. Isn`t it at least a little funny how you jump on Mr. Masih everytime you perceive he is bashing Islam?
`` You fail to justify the lowering of consent age to satisy the pedophilic urges of homosexuals like yourself.``
That, my friend is a discussion for another board. In fact, it has already been discussed, and IMO, justified too.
``You bash Islam, Muslim poets and sufis...``
Du-uh! If pointing out facts and recounting traditions amounts to `bashing`, you are indeed insecure. But let me spell it out for you again... I`m on the side of the Muslim sufis, poets etc whom you would (with your Western-tainted sexual morals) castigate as homosexuals or (shudder!!) pedophiles.
I could point out the ultimate irony in a devout Muslim asking someone to `justify` pedophilia, but then, I hardly relish the fate of my late uncle, Salamat Maseeh.
[``Would it be okay for me to offer my 14-yo daughter to the the man from Ontario instead?``
You want it both ways don`t you? You want to shag the 14 year old son of ``the man from Ontario`` but want to save your 14 year old daughter. BTW, how are you going to get a daughter? have a uterus transplanted next to the rectum?]
Hey... you think I`m about to offer free consultancy here! You wish!!
(Obviously, you didn`t pick up on to reference to the 14-yo daughter :)
P.S. Your homosexual = pedophile equation is a load of BS. If you`d like, I could provide you with tonnes of research work showing the preponderence of hetrosexuals in pedphilic encounters... Now wouldn`t that upset your applecart nicely!
``RE: PM # 843
What has Islam got to do with the fact that you want to do unnatural acts with children 14 years or younger?``
What have my SUPPOSED preferences got to do with the issues being discussed here? I brought up the issue of sexual laws to illustrate F_K`s hypocrisy; nothing more. You obviously seem to have a more prurient interest in these matters? Get some help!
As for bringing Islam into it, I didn`t. I questioned whether ``your`` islam was threatened again. Isn`t it at least a little funny how you jump on Mr. Masih everytime you perceive he is bashing Islam?
`` You fail to justify the lowering of consent age to satisy the pedophilic urges of homosexuals like yourself.``
That, my friend is a discussion for another board. In fact, it has already been discussed, and IMO, justified too.
``You bash Islam, Muslim poets and sufis...``
Du-uh! If pointing out facts and recounting traditions amounts to `bashing`, you are indeed insecure. But let me spell it out for you again... I`m on the side of the Muslim sufis, poets etc whom you would (with your Western-tainted sexual morals) castigate as homosexuals or (shudder!!) pedophiles.
I could point out the ultimate irony in a devout Muslim asking someone to `justify` pedophilia, but then, I hardly relish the fate of my late uncle, Salamat Maseeh.
[``Would it be okay for me to offer my 14-yo daughter to the the man from Ontario instead?``
You want it both ways don`t you? You want to shag the 14 year old son of ``the man from Ontario`` but want to save your 14 year old daughter. BTW, how are you going to get a daughter? have a uterus transplanted next to the rectum?]
Hey... you think I`m about to offer free consultancy here! You wish!!
(Obviously, you didn`t pick up on to reference to the 14-yo daughter :)
P.S. Your homosexual = pedophile equation is a load of BS. If you`d like, I could provide you with tonnes of research work showing the preponderence of hetrosexuals in pedphilic encounters... Now wouldn`t that upset your applecart nicely!
#874 Posted by SameerJB on August 29, 2001 4:27:54 am
Let us see how the performance of current governor of Punjab is matched with the previous one. Anybody willing to take a shot at the following article from Nation daily, dated August 29, 2001.
Shahbaz Sharif and Punjab
Esfand Yar
In Shahbaz Sharif’s first week as Punjab CM, I saw him in a white Corolla at a red signal on The Mall. No motorcade, no hooters, no protocol fleet. I thought it was a political gimmick. But I was wrong. From that day on he never looked back. Normally people work from nine to five, but he and his team literally worked from five to nine. Lahoris saw his 6-am on-the-spot meetings at development projects. These ‘good morning get-togethers’ were a nightmare for the bureaucrats and technocrats concerned.
But despite his acquittal twice in the hijacking case, he was bars without any charge for 14 months and was forced into exile. Does he really deserve this? I have prepared a chargesheet against him for his 32-month tenure as CM.
1. Unparalleled infrastructure development. Initially, the focus was on major cities like Lahore, Rawalpindi, Multan, Faisalabad, Sialkot, DG Khan and Bahawalpur. In Lahore only, over 600 roads were widened and relaid. Roadside drains, footpaths, streetlights, traffic signals and signs, bus shelters, and green belts became mandatory for major roads. If privileged Jail Road and Main Boulevard were improved, so were deprived Satto Katla Double Road, Shadbagh Triple Road and Shalimar Link Road. He personally had proper seats, a water cooler, telephone booth and bin installed in each bus shelter. Critics called this micromanagement. But these shelters provided relief for the users in summer.
Three flyovers and three underpasses built in two years in Lahore, new parks and green verges coming up everywhere, existing ones improved. No less than 14 sports complexes were under construction when his government ended. What is their fate now?
2. A massive anti-encroachment drive was conducted in Lahore without favour. A strong message was sent to qabza groups that rule of law was back. Plazas, petrol pumps and shops violating building by-laws were demolished to widen roads. Nine mammoth fuel pumps, one owned by a near relative of the CM were razed in one day from Jail Road. Another benefit was resource generation. Billions were collected by auctioning state land retrieved from encroachers. These funds went to the Road Rehabilitation Project. The Punjab C&W Minister recently blamed the previous government for creating a huge debt to FWO and NLC. In fact, the debt is mounting because the resource generation drive stopped. Now there is no retrieval of properties or auctions. Even the shops built at the Jail Road underpass and at Chowk Shahalami have not been sold. The will to deliver, a Shahbaz specialty, is nonexistent now.
3. Shahbaz Sharif inducted the NLC and FWO in building urban road infrastructure. It had varied objectives: eliminating a corrupt contractor mafia, ensuring high quality work, and making projects credible by time-bound performance. The then Chief Secretary wrote a lengthy note opposing the induction of the Army. However, the CM overruled him in the public interest. For such acts some labelled his style despotic. But, for many, this was popular needed the most at this juncture. Had the Army not been so involved in civilian matters the 12 October action may not have been so easy. But he who kept aloft the national interest is not where he deserves to be.
4. Anything not inspected is neglected. This was his favorite principle, which he invoked within a rotten bureaucratic framework. He introduced third-party monitoring and independent post-audit over all civil works in Punjab, to thwart corruption, uproot inefficiency and maintain financial discipline. He and his personal staff became a ‘fourth party’ to monitor random projects. He supervised monsoon relief operations standing in waist-deep stinking water. Due to his personal interest, people like the Commissioner, MD WASA and the Lord Mayor were out on roads for the first time during the monsoons.
5. After firming up this model in Lahore, it was replicated in the other major cities. Road networks were re-laid in Faisalabad, Rawalpindi and Sialkot. A flyover in Multan, a water supply scheme in Yazman and pollution control project in Kasur were other major projects. Some were nearing completion when 12 October came. Since then, the pulse of these projects and others in embryonic stages died down.
6. Major headway was made in every sphere, where there was either total neglect or mismanagement. The focus of each initiative was public welfare and relief to a common man. One example is inflation. He started by forming a Task Force, with the late Prof Sajjad Haider, a man of impeccable integrity as chairman. The CM’s helicopter was at the disposal of the Task Force for random raids on far-flung districts. All DCs and SPs were made personally answerable to the CM, and ministers and secretaries were asked to remain in the field in Ramazan. (The Punjab Governor took a leaf out of his book by doing the same). The Food Stamp scheme provided a subsidy of over Rs 1 billion a year to keep atta prices at Rs 6-7 a kg. This dismayed the bureaucracy for budget reasons. But every time the CM put his foot down that it was the only way left for direct relief to the poor. The present regime ended this subsidy as soon as it took over. However, after a year, they introduced it, but only as a Ramadan package.
7. He waged a war against spurious and substandard medicines. New drug testing labs were established, their standards were improved and corrupt staff replaced throughout Punjab. Drug Courts were empowered by drug law amendments. Medical stores went on strike but could not dent Shahbaz’s determination. These lines cannot explain the effort he made to fight this mafia.
He legislated to give ‘autonomy’ to major hospitals as a first step towards District Health Governments. Chief Executives of hospitals were selected on merit and freed from the shackles of Health, Finance and C&W departments, to bureacratic dismay. There were initial hiccups, but while the plan was still embryonic the government was sent home. The present regime is highly critical of this policy. One fails to understand that while moving ahead with a devolution plan it is withdrawing autonomy from hospitals.
8. If there is any IT pioneer in Pakistan, it is Shahbaz. He was went to the USA, and personally ensured technical assistance from Microsoft and Oracle. When most of our politicians were even unaware of IT jargon he introduced classes in UET, formed IT Board in Punjab with main emphasis to produce more and more IT experts so that they can impart proper training to youngsters. His aim was to one day compete with India.
9. He relished fighting against vested interests without succumbing to political exigencies. Disbandment of PRTC, a white elephant eating Rs 400 million a year, with only 20 buses on the road, was only one example. He did not stop there. He introduced franchised urban bus service in Lahore. Even now, New Khan and Daewoo buses are plying. After the arrival of first batch of 30 Daewoo buses, the government was toppled and with it everything stopped. The actual plan of 700 buses suffered from bureaucratic inertia.
10. In past, Zakat funds of billions were doled out in the shape of Rs 200-500 a month, raising an army of beggars. Shahbaz, after finally getting clearance from the ulema, ordered these funds to go to establishing modern Vocational Training Institutes for poor and needy, so that a skilled force could be produced who could with dignity contribute to the economy. He also envisaged a plan that these skilled hands would be recruited in the private sector as soon as they passed out. What is the fate of this policy?
11. Reforming police is the favorite exercise of virtually all rulers, but only in redtaped files. For the first time in the province, all DCs and SPs were posted on merit. He recruited police inspectors directly through PPSC on merit. As CM he did not relax any rule for anyone. Best officers were deputed to train these youngsters with a redrawn syllabus. He raised constables’ pays Rs 1000 a month. He gave exemplary punishments to the corrupt and inefficient. Elite police training was started by Army commandos. Many plans were on the anvil, including change in Police Act, but he didn’t get the chance.
12. In agriculture, he strived to watch the small farmers’ interest. During his tenure he influenced everybody, from APTMA to the Commerce and Finance Ministries to increase the cotton price from Rs 600 per maund to Rs 820. One-window facility for small farm loans was ensured. Adulteration in pesticides was virtually done away with. To attract investment in agro-based industry he achieved an agreement with China.
13. His tenure as Chief Minister is a marvelous exhibition of good governance. There was no erratic posting. All recruitments, postings and transfers were on merit. Austerity was the key. He never used an official car. At CM House, only tea and biscuits were served in meetings. If they extended to late evenings, only daal-chawal was served. Not a single new vehicle was purchased for politicians or bureaucrats.
14. He eliminated ‘booti mafia‘ from examinations, personally raiding centres at random. Each Education Board was purged of corrupt officials. He got thousands of ghost schools identified by the Army. Entry Test system for admission in professional colleges was introduced. What is happening now?
An old man remembers him for doing away with the menace of open death traps, that are manholes, in which kids used to drown, but no one ever took a rap on knuckles. Shahbaz took such stringent measures that it never happened again. How? Special Branch was asked not to monitor the activities of Nawab saheb, but to identify death wells so that WASA’s misreporting could be counterchecked.
A poor woman in Bahawalpur prays for him because her son was selected as police inspector on sheer merit. A disabled kid loves him because he got a lifetime opportunity along with hundreds of others to see an international cricket match in the CM’s enclosure.
Shahbaz stands heads and shoulders above his political contemporaries. He has qualities that must be used for national betterment. One hopes those at the helm of affairs don’t let political expediency overtake the national interest.
Shahbaz Sharif and Punjab
Esfand Yar
In Shahbaz Sharif’s first week as Punjab CM, I saw him in a white Corolla at a red signal on The Mall. No motorcade, no hooters, no protocol fleet. I thought it was a political gimmick. But I was wrong. From that day on he never looked back. Normally people work from nine to five, but he and his team literally worked from five to nine. Lahoris saw his 6-am on-the-spot meetings at development projects. These ‘good morning get-togethers’ were a nightmare for the bureaucrats and technocrats concerned.
But despite his acquittal twice in the hijacking case, he was bars without any charge for 14 months and was forced into exile. Does he really deserve this? I have prepared a chargesheet against him for his 32-month tenure as CM.
1. Unparalleled infrastructure development. Initially, the focus was on major cities like Lahore, Rawalpindi, Multan, Faisalabad, Sialkot, DG Khan and Bahawalpur. In Lahore only, over 600 roads were widened and relaid. Roadside drains, footpaths, streetlights, traffic signals and signs, bus shelters, and green belts became mandatory for major roads. If privileged Jail Road and Main Boulevard were improved, so were deprived Satto Katla Double Road, Shadbagh Triple Road and Shalimar Link Road. He personally had proper seats, a water cooler, telephone booth and bin installed in each bus shelter. Critics called this micromanagement. But these shelters provided relief for the users in summer.
Three flyovers and three underpasses built in two years in Lahore, new parks and green verges coming up everywhere, existing ones improved. No less than 14 sports complexes were under construction when his government ended. What is their fate now?
2. A massive anti-encroachment drive was conducted in Lahore without favour. A strong message was sent to qabza groups that rule of law was back. Plazas, petrol pumps and shops violating building by-laws were demolished to widen roads. Nine mammoth fuel pumps, one owned by a near relative of the CM were razed in one day from Jail Road. Another benefit was resource generation. Billions were collected by auctioning state land retrieved from encroachers. These funds went to the Road Rehabilitation Project. The Punjab C&W Minister recently blamed the previous government for creating a huge debt to FWO and NLC. In fact, the debt is mounting because the resource generation drive stopped. Now there is no retrieval of properties or auctions. Even the shops built at the Jail Road underpass and at Chowk Shahalami have not been sold. The will to deliver, a Shahbaz specialty, is nonexistent now.
3. Shahbaz Sharif inducted the NLC and FWO in building urban road infrastructure. It had varied objectives: eliminating a corrupt contractor mafia, ensuring high quality work, and making projects credible by time-bound performance. The then Chief Secretary wrote a lengthy note opposing the induction of the Army. However, the CM overruled him in the public interest. For such acts some labelled his style despotic. But, for many, this was popular needed the most at this juncture. Had the Army not been so involved in civilian matters the 12 October action may not have been so easy. But he who kept aloft the national interest is not where he deserves to be.
4. Anything not inspected is neglected. This was his favorite principle, which he invoked within a rotten bureaucratic framework. He introduced third-party monitoring and independent post-audit over all civil works in Punjab, to thwart corruption, uproot inefficiency and maintain financial discipline. He and his personal staff became a ‘fourth party’ to monitor random projects. He supervised monsoon relief operations standing in waist-deep stinking water. Due to his personal interest, people like the Commissioner, MD WASA and the Lord Mayor were out on roads for the first time during the monsoons.
5. After firming up this model in Lahore, it was replicated in the other major cities. Road networks were re-laid in Faisalabad, Rawalpindi and Sialkot. A flyover in Multan, a water supply scheme in Yazman and pollution control project in Kasur were other major projects. Some were nearing completion when 12 October came. Since then, the pulse of these projects and others in embryonic stages died down.
6. Major headway was made in every sphere, where there was either total neglect or mismanagement. The focus of each initiative was public welfare and relief to a common man. One example is inflation. He started by forming a Task Force, with the late Prof Sajjad Haider, a man of impeccable integrity as chairman. The CM’s helicopter was at the disposal of the Task Force for random raids on far-flung districts. All DCs and SPs were made personally answerable to the CM, and ministers and secretaries were asked to remain in the field in Ramazan. (The Punjab Governor took a leaf out of his book by doing the same). The Food Stamp scheme provided a subsidy of over Rs 1 billion a year to keep atta prices at Rs 6-7 a kg. This dismayed the bureaucracy for budget reasons. But every time the CM put his foot down that it was the only way left for direct relief to the poor. The present regime ended this subsidy as soon as it took over. However, after a year, they introduced it, but only as a Ramadan package.
7. He waged a war against spurious and substandard medicines. New drug testing labs were established, their standards were improved and corrupt staff replaced throughout Punjab. Drug Courts were empowered by drug law amendments. Medical stores went on strike but could not dent Shahbaz’s determination. These lines cannot explain the effort he made to fight this mafia.
He legislated to give ‘autonomy’ to major hospitals as a first step towards District Health Governments. Chief Executives of hospitals were selected on merit and freed from the shackles of Health, Finance and C&W departments, to bureacratic dismay. There were initial hiccups, but while the plan was still embryonic the government was sent home. The present regime is highly critical of this policy. One fails to understand that while moving ahead with a devolution plan it is withdrawing autonomy from hospitals.
8. If there is any IT pioneer in Pakistan, it is Shahbaz. He was went to the USA, and personally ensured technical assistance from Microsoft and Oracle. When most of our politicians were even unaware of IT jargon he introduced classes in UET, formed IT Board in Punjab with main emphasis to produce more and more IT experts so that they can impart proper training to youngsters. His aim was to one day compete with India.
9. He relished fighting against vested interests without succumbing to political exigencies. Disbandment of PRTC, a white elephant eating Rs 400 million a year, with only 20 buses on the road, was only one example. He did not stop there. He introduced franchised urban bus service in Lahore. Even now, New Khan and Daewoo buses are plying. After the arrival of first batch of 30 Daewoo buses, the government was toppled and with it everything stopped. The actual plan of 700 buses suffered from bureaucratic inertia.
10. In past, Zakat funds of billions were doled out in the shape of Rs 200-500 a month, raising an army of beggars. Shahbaz, after finally getting clearance from the ulema, ordered these funds to go to establishing modern Vocational Training Institutes for poor and needy, so that a skilled force could be produced who could with dignity contribute to the economy. He also envisaged a plan that these skilled hands would be recruited in the private sector as soon as they passed out. What is the fate of this policy?
11. Reforming police is the favorite exercise of virtually all rulers, but only in redtaped files. For the first time in the province, all DCs and SPs were posted on merit. He recruited police inspectors directly through PPSC on merit. As CM he did not relax any rule for anyone. Best officers were deputed to train these youngsters with a redrawn syllabus. He raised constables’ pays Rs 1000 a month. He gave exemplary punishments to the corrupt and inefficient. Elite police training was started by Army commandos. Many plans were on the anvil, including change in Police Act, but he didn’t get the chance.
12. In agriculture, he strived to watch the small farmers’ interest. During his tenure he influenced everybody, from APTMA to the Commerce and Finance Ministries to increase the cotton price from Rs 600 per maund to Rs 820. One-window facility for small farm loans was ensured. Adulteration in pesticides was virtually done away with. To attract investment in agro-based industry he achieved an agreement with China.
13. His tenure as Chief Minister is a marvelous exhibition of good governance. There was no erratic posting. All recruitments, postings and transfers were on merit. Austerity was the key. He never used an official car. At CM House, only tea and biscuits were served in meetings. If they extended to late evenings, only daal-chawal was served. Not a single new vehicle was purchased for politicians or bureaucrats.
14. He eliminated ‘booti mafia‘ from examinations, personally raiding centres at random. Each Education Board was purged of corrupt officials. He got thousands of ghost schools identified by the Army. Entry Test system for admission in professional colleges was introduced. What is happening now?
An old man remembers him for doing away with the menace of open death traps, that are manholes, in which kids used to drown, but no one ever took a rap on knuckles. Shahbaz took such stringent measures that it never happened again. How? Special Branch was asked not to monitor the activities of Nawab saheb, but to identify death wells so that WASA’s misreporting could be counterchecked.
A poor woman in Bahawalpur prays for him because her son was selected as police inspector on sheer merit. A disabled kid loves him because he got a lifetime opportunity along with hundreds of others to see an international cricket match in the CM’s enclosure.
Shahbaz stands heads and shoulders above his political contemporaries. He has qualities that must be used for national betterment. One hopes those at the helm of affairs don’t let political expediency overtake the national interest.
#873 Posted by PM on August 29, 2001 4:27:54 am
re. AAMIR: #ummmmm
``Its wrong to answer to every critic of u.S.A. or even INDIA ,to leave it .``
Yes, but it`s bloody well right to tell those criticizing the the very ideological foundations of a country to get their hypocritical asses out of there!
``Its wrong to answer to every critic of u.S.A. or even INDIA ,to leave it .``
Yes, but it`s bloody well right to tell those criticizing the the very ideological foundations of a country to get their hypocritical asses out of there!
#872 Posted by ZafarA on August 29, 2001 4:27:54 am
Reply Sadna and Sadhna #902
“No bankrupt company keep GROWING.Why are you so slow.......”
In our lives we all have to make a choice between quantity and quality. One of you has obviously taken one route, and the other the other. No prizes for guessing who made which choice.
“&you missed some more “
Abh mujhe neend nahin ayegi. Aap ko aise bhayanak dhumki dene se kya faida?
“No bankrupt company keep GROWING.Why are you so slow.......”
In our lives we all have to make a choice between quantity and quality. One of you has obviously taken one route, and the other the other. No prizes for guessing who made which choice.
“&you missed some more “
Abh mujhe neend nahin ayegi. Aap ko aise bhayanak dhumki dene se kya faida?
#871 Posted by nasah on August 29, 2001 1:44:35 am
“KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) - Taliban soldiers smashed hundreds of bottles of alcohol that had survived years of radical Islamic rule hidden behind a false wall in the basement of the capital`s only major hotel.
Turbaned troops pushed each other to get at the estimated 500 bottles of bottles of vodka, wine and whiskey on Tuesday, each wanting to throw a bottle on the rocks behind the hotel.
``This is against Islam,`` said the troops with the Taliban`s religious police...Some of the wine was up to 30 years old.”!!!
Now what kind of animal would do something so diabolical as – smash a 30 year old bottle of wine on the rocks -- for nothing.
Executing -- a burqa clad woman in public with a bullet in the back of her head -- with modesty -– is understandable –- but throwing away 30 year old prized wine bottles – that is pretty sick -- only a barbarian would dare do that.
Anyway that was true Islamic `spirit`.
Turbaned troops pushed each other to get at the estimated 500 bottles of bottles of vodka, wine and whiskey on Tuesday, each wanting to throw a bottle on the rocks behind the hotel.
``This is against Islam,`` said the troops with the Taliban`s religious police...Some of the wine was up to 30 years old.”!!!
Now what kind of animal would do something so diabolical as – smash a 30 year old bottle of wine on the rocks -- for nothing.
Executing -- a burqa clad woman in public with a bullet in the back of her head -- with modesty -– is understandable –- but throwing away 30 year old prized wine bottles – that is pretty sick -- only a barbarian would dare do that.
Anyway that was true Islamic `spirit`.