Chowk, Jay, a Ditch and I
anNy August 18, 2001
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#950 Posted by sattar2 on September 9, 2001 10:46:10 pm
Re hobbyty (#1519):
I agree with you in that “jurisprudence can effect and legitimize within it`s narrow confines, legislation that does not meet the spirit of Islam”, but this really states the obvious.
Every legal framework, whether secular or religious, is open to exploitation by less-than-sincere lawmakers. Islam here is no exception. Even in the good old USA, where the constitution declares all men to be equal, African-Americans have been legally discriminated against for most part of the history of this young nation. They have been legally traded as slaves in the early days, later disenfranchised under Jim Crow laws and “Grand father” clauses (if I remember my college history correctly), and not allowed to drink from the same water fountains as other people as late as the 1960s. The treatment of Japanese Americans by the US government after Pearl Harbor is but another such chapter. All this and more were “legitimately” done despite constitutional declaration that all men are equal.
Any law, even the law of Allah, is only as good as the people practicing it. When people’s hearts and minds are sealed, no law or word can reform them. Quran often refers to such people in several places as those whose hearts are sealed. Mullahs in Pakistan are one such group of people … a curse on the nation (I think there are several ahadith that mention corruption in the Muslim clergy in the “later” days). In the specific case of Blasphemy Laws mullahs have exploited Islamic jurisprudence to come up with un-Islamic laws, in the name of Islam. It is ironic, but that’s just the nature of the beast.
Asad Sattar
I agree with you in that “jurisprudence can effect and legitimize within it`s narrow confines, legislation that does not meet the spirit of Islam”, but this really states the obvious.
Every legal framework, whether secular or religious, is open to exploitation by less-than-sincere lawmakers. Islam here is no exception. Even in the good old USA, where the constitution declares all men to be equal, African-Americans have been legally discriminated against for most part of the history of this young nation. They have been legally traded as slaves in the early days, later disenfranchised under Jim Crow laws and “Grand father” clauses (if I remember my college history correctly), and not allowed to drink from the same water fountains as other people as late as the 1960s. The treatment of Japanese Americans by the US government after Pearl Harbor is but another such chapter. All this and more were “legitimately” done despite constitutional declaration that all men are equal.
Any law, even the law of Allah, is only as good as the people practicing it. When people’s hearts and minds are sealed, no law or word can reform them. Quran often refers to such people in several places as those whose hearts are sealed. Mullahs in Pakistan are one such group of people … a curse on the nation (I think there are several ahadith that mention corruption in the Muslim clergy in the “later” days). In the specific case of Blasphemy Laws mullahs have exploited Islamic jurisprudence to come up with un-Islamic laws, in the name of Islam. It is ironic, but that’s just the nature of the beast.
Asad Sattar
#949 Posted by rsaxena on September 9, 2001 10:46:10 pm
Re: id
Take your holier-than-thou preaching and can it. No really, please can it.
There is enough $hit being thrown from both sides.
Unlike some Pakistanis, I don`t choose to whine about it...I just throw it right back by the truckload; and twice as hard.
Take your holier-than-thou preaching and can it. No really, please can it.
There is enough $hit being thrown from both sides.
Unlike some Pakistanis, I don`t choose to whine about it...I just throw it right back by the truckload; and twice as hard.
#948 Posted by rsaxena on September 9, 2001 10:46:10 pm
Gowardhan, rsridhar, & Co.
There is absolutely no need to defend Gandhi, particularly against some opportunist named Jinnah, the father of a banana republic called Pakistan.
Gandhi needs no defending. The world has already accorded him all the glory and respect he deserves. He doesn`t us to defend him. People like Martin Luther King to Nelson Mandela have invoked his name in greatness. Time magazine almost named him the man of the century. Jinnah wasn`t even on the list. `Nuf said.
There is absolutely no need to defend Gandhi, particularly against some opportunist named Jinnah, the father of a banana republic called Pakistan.
Gandhi needs no defending. The world has already accorded him all the glory and respect he deserves. He doesn`t us to defend him. People like Martin Luther King to Nelson Mandela have invoked his name in greatness. Time magazine almost named him the man of the century. Jinnah wasn`t even on the list. `Nuf said.
#947 Posted by bong_dongs on September 9, 2001 10:46:10 pm
btw ylh,
Ive gone through the 1965 war histories on BR and at Jagan`s site. Going through it I`ll readily agree:
1)that PAF conducted a superlative defence of Sargodha in 65
2)Squadron Leader Mohammed Mahmud Alam was a superlative fighter pilot and a real Pakistani hero (since he is bengali too that easy for me to concede :-).
(I think most Indians here will agree to the above)
is there anything else you would like to discuss?
Ive gone through the 1965 war histories on BR and at Jagan`s site. Going through it I`ll readily agree:
1)that PAF conducted a superlative defence of Sargodha in 65
2)Squadron Leader Mohammed Mahmud Alam was a superlative fighter pilot and a real Pakistani hero (since he is bengali too that easy for me to concede :-).
(I think most Indians here will agree to the above)
is there anything else you would like to discuss?
#946 Posted by rsaxena on September 9, 2001 10:46:10 pm
Re: ylh
``Pakistan Air Force has defended the nation quite well``
Mooohahahahaha. It defended Pakistan so well that India split half the country off in the circumcision of 1971. It defended Pakistan so well that 90,000 (90,000...90,000...90,000) Pakistani soldiers surrendered and marched pitifully at the mercy of an Indian general. Now that`s a world record...I guess there`s something to be proud of in that, isn`t there?
``Pakistan Air Force has defended the nation quite well``
Mooohahahahaha. It defended Pakistan so well that India split half the country off in the circumcision of 1971. It defended Pakistan so well that 90,000 (90,000...90,000...90,000) Pakistani soldiers surrendered and marched pitifully at the mercy of an Indian general. Now that`s a world record...I guess there`s something to be proud of in that, isn`t there?
#945 Posted by arjun_m on September 9, 2001 10:46:10 pm
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#944 Posted by hamidm on September 9, 2001 10:46:10 pm
PM
...... thanks for trying, but your argument is very weak when you talk about islam ..... you fail to understand that morality and law are one and the same thing ... and since there is no question of morality changing with time and space, how can the laws change ?...... morality is pre-ordained and the laws that govern it cannot and must not be changed ....... fatimah and ayehsa established the morality for women, god approved it, gabriel delivered it and the prophet sealed it ... there is no room for deviation in absolute truth ......how can you change the laws when the standards of morality that they govern are not supposed to change ........ all his fancy talk about ijthehad is nonsense - all you do is confuse me drive me to drink .......
...... thanks for trying, but your argument is very weak when you talk about islam ..... you fail to understand that morality and law are one and the same thing ... and since there is no question of morality changing with time and space, how can the laws change ?...... morality is pre-ordained and the laws that govern it cannot and must not be changed ....... fatimah and ayehsa established the morality for women, god approved it, gabriel delivered it and the prophet sealed it ... there is no room for deviation in absolute truth ......how can you change the laws when the standards of morality that they govern are not supposed to change ........ all his fancy talk about ijthehad is nonsense - all you do is confuse me drive me to drink .......
#943 Posted by bong_dongs on September 9, 2001 10:46:10 pm
ok so not exactly 1 muslim = 10 hindu, but a variation thereof
1 PAF pilot = 10 IAF pilots
right?
1 PAF pilot = 10 IAF pilots
right?
#942 Posted by rsaxena on September 9, 2001 10:46:10 pm
Re: ylh
I seem to have put you in a dark rat hole.
India admits it lost the war to China. We are not in denial like Pakistanis such as yourself. Therein lies our strength - we learned from that mistake. You arses on the other hand kept going back for one thrashing after another, culminating in the splitting of your country in half in the final round.
Even now you haven`t learnt your lesson. There are Pakistanis chanting ``Kashmir banega Pakistan.`` Not to sound like your CE who brags about nuclear destruction, but Pakistanis who say that don`t realize there will be nothing but a charred piece of radioactive land in place of Pakistan if India ever gets attacked by Pakistan. (Yes, we will lose a few states too.)
I seem to have put you in a dark rat hole.
India admits it lost the war to China. We are not in denial like Pakistanis such as yourself. Therein lies our strength - we learned from that mistake. You arses on the other hand kept going back for one thrashing after another, culminating in the splitting of your country in half in the final round.
Even now you haven`t learnt your lesson. There are Pakistanis chanting ``Kashmir banega Pakistan.`` Not to sound like your CE who brags about nuclear destruction, but Pakistanis who say that don`t realize there will be nothing but a charred piece of radioactive land in place of Pakistan if India ever gets attacked by Pakistan. (Yes, we will lose a few states too.)
#941 Posted by rsaxena on September 9, 2001 10:46:10 pm
Re: banjaara
``If your contention is right,logically, there should not be a single hindu left in India,in view of the muslim rule by absolute muslim monarchs for a few centuries.Care to explain?``
Even Hitler couldn`t eliminate every Jew. What`s your point?
``If your contention is right,logically, there should not be a single hindu left in India,in view of the muslim rule by absolute muslim monarchs for a few centuries.Care to explain?``
Even Hitler couldn`t eliminate every Jew. What`s your point?
#940 Posted by hamidm on September 9, 2001 10:46:10 pm
sameerjb
``and depletion of annual saving in killing a healthy goat every year took all the fun out of growing up-what hamidm was fortunate to enjoy at uet and Islamabad. ``
....... i am still laughing ! one of these days i must tell you all about sain lahrasab hussain the master brewer at bari imam and his band of bhang-pounders who pound the leaves for hours to the beat of ``allah-hu`` and the jhankar of ghungrus ...... since i grew up in that area, i have a deep spiritual relationship with that place ....... if god exists, he is somewhere there ...... i think when i die, i am going to get cremated and have my ashes strewn around the mazar .....you see, i have this morbid fear of being buried alive and as much as i hate to admit it, the horrible hindoos are one up on us in this regard - every religion has some goodness
...... on a more serious note, drug addiction in pakistan has gone from bad to worse over the last ten years ..... in the good old days there was an opium ``theka`` behind the railway station where addicts could go and get a fix ..... charas afficiandos, uet students and tonga-wallas alike, could go to koila center in sadddar and get a weeks supply for ten ruppes ........ i had never heard of heroin and never knew any addicts ...... now they are everywhere - you cannot go ten steps without seeing a ``jahaz`` face down in the street .... after sunset, every graveyard and empty garbage-filled plot shelters groups of nashais who huddle together like vultures to shoot-up .... and the afghan kids pick up the disposable syringes and sell them back to desperate souls who steal man-hole covers and laundry off the line to comfort their miserable souls - it is heartbreaking .........
...... they shut down ismailjees`s liquour store on canning road and the melody liquour store behind melody cinema .... now you can get ice-cold beer delivered within minutes with a simple mobile phone call .....and army generals carry bottles of black label along with the the country`s nuclear secrets in their brief-cases ....... but life at bari imam goes on - i must get back
``and depletion of annual saving in killing a healthy goat every year took all the fun out of growing up-what hamidm was fortunate to enjoy at uet and Islamabad. ``
....... i am still laughing ! one of these days i must tell you all about sain lahrasab hussain the master brewer at bari imam and his band of bhang-pounders who pound the leaves for hours to the beat of ``allah-hu`` and the jhankar of ghungrus ...... since i grew up in that area, i have a deep spiritual relationship with that place ....... if god exists, he is somewhere there ...... i think when i die, i am going to get cremated and have my ashes strewn around the mazar .....you see, i have this morbid fear of being buried alive and as much as i hate to admit it, the horrible hindoos are one up on us in this regard - every religion has some goodness
...... on a more serious note, drug addiction in pakistan has gone from bad to worse over the last ten years ..... in the good old days there was an opium ``theka`` behind the railway station where addicts could go and get a fix ..... charas afficiandos, uet students and tonga-wallas alike, could go to koila center in sadddar and get a weeks supply for ten ruppes ........ i had never heard of heroin and never knew any addicts ...... now they are everywhere - you cannot go ten steps without seeing a ``jahaz`` face down in the street .... after sunset, every graveyard and empty garbage-filled plot shelters groups of nashais who huddle together like vultures to shoot-up .... and the afghan kids pick up the disposable syringes and sell them back to desperate souls who steal man-hole covers and laundry off the line to comfort their miserable souls - it is heartbreaking .........
...... they shut down ismailjees`s liquour store on canning road and the melody liquour store behind melody cinema .... now you can get ice-cold beer delivered within minutes with a simple mobile phone call .....and army generals carry bottles of black label along with the the country`s nuclear secrets in their brief-cases ....... but life at bari imam goes on - i must get back
#939 Posted by Godot on September 9, 2001 10:46:10 pm
Re: Gowardhan, #442
``Ahamadias are ponds to your `true` muslims ocean.``
- I did not expect a person of your intellect to understand my post. You proved me right!
``Disgusting as *hole.``
- Well said. How a person conveys his feelings is a true reflection of his inner being. Thank you for letting us know your true self.
``Ahamadias are ponds to your `true` muslims ocean.``
- I did not expect a person of your intellect to understand my post. You proved me right!
``Disgusting as *hole.``
- Well said. How a person conveys his feelings is a true reflection of his inner being. Thank you for letting us know your true self.
#938 Posted by DRUMZ on September 9, 2001 8:12:16 pm
Hobby: This is a crucial move for us both, please think it out thoroughly...
A few months back World Vision had a special on Tv. The moderator took us to a hospital in rural Pakistan. In one makeshift bed lay this 14 year old girl. She had 3rd degree burns throughout her body, her mother and aunt were by her bed side. Throughout the show she painfully screamed ``Ami... Ami...Ami.`` She died 11 hours after the camera man left...Apparently this child was a ``whore.``
1. What do you suggest should happen to the perpetrator?
2. Where do you get the audacity to tell me Im looking for blood?
Ill tell you what I think, someone should take a baseball bat to the head of whomever did that. And I think I already said Im fluent in most religions. None of this is a ``knee jerk`` reaction. This is HARDLY my first instinct, I took into consideration (in my answer:) AHIMSA (nonviolence), the Pakistani judicial system and being conquered by my animal self etc.
(BTW: I dont care what religion the acid thrower belongs do. He is symbolic of one causing evil.)
Pluralism: You seek to spread knowledge in Pakistan, to have others accept your ideology, correct? Is not FOOD AND WATER more important? instead of dropping pamphlets outta helicopters, wouldnt it be advisable to help those suffering from poverty? Just a thought... Also How does pluralism deal with those who reject it (I know how communism and democracy deal with them), say the jihadis?
About the Indian question, Ive made myself very clear on what I think of patriots (in some of my earlier posts). I dont read everyone`s posts but if I catch something Ill say it, and I did respond to rsaxena...
PS: I am extremely curious about the following. You adamently disagree with me seeking to kill the acid thrower, yet you WORSHIP an entity who will torture insan for an eternity for doing a finite crime. You`re in one hell of a contradiction here. If you dont agree with Allahs compassion claim, how can you call him Arrahman?
Shalom.
A few months back World Vision had a special on Tv. The moderator took us to a hospital in rural Pakistan. In one makeshift bed lay this 14 year old girl. She had 3rd degree burns throughout her body, her mother and aunt were by her bed side. Throughout the show she painfully screamed ``Ami... Ami...Ami.`` She died 11 hours after the camera man left...Apparently this child was a ``whore.``
1. What do you suggest should happen to the perpetrator?
2. Where do you get the audacity to tell me Im looking for blood?
Ill tell you what I think, someone should take a baseball bat to the head of whomever did that. And I think I already said Im fluent in most religions. None of this is a ``knee jerk`` reaction. This is HARDLY my first instinct, I took into consideration (in my answer:) AHIMSA (nonviolence), the Pakistani judicial system and being conquered by my animal self etc.
(BTW: I dont care what religion the acid thrower belongs do. He is symbolic of one causing evil.)
Pluralism: You seek to spread knowledge in Pakistan, to have others accept your ideology, correct? Is not FOOD AND WATER more important? instead of dropping pamphlets outta helicopters, wouldnt it be advisable to help those suffering from poverty? Just a thought... Also How does pluralism deal with those who reject it (I know how communism and democracy deal with them), say the jihadis?
About the Indian question, Ive made myself very clear on what I think of patriots (in some of my earlier posts). I dont read everyone`s posts but if I catch something Ill say it, and I did respond to rsaxena...
PS: I am extremely curious about the following. You adamently disagree with me seeking to kill the acid thrower, yet you WORSHIP an entity who will torture insan for an eternity for doing a finite crime. You`re in one hell of a contradiction here. If you dont agree with Allahs compassion claim, how can you call him Arrahman?
Shalom.
#937 Posted by ylh on September 9, 2001 8:12:16 pm
Rsaxena,
It has been brought to my attention that your delusions about your great army`s 3-0 record is not your fault. Indian History Books claim that India thrashed China in the 1962 War and marched on Beijing.... So I see that this `Saddam Hussein` Mentality of claiming victory is a national psyche for you chaps (next time dont use my own analogy on me, I used the Saddam Hussain analogy first)....
Maybe some day India will come out of its delusions and superiority complex not to mention its ambitions of being the regional hegemon. That day maybe we shall have peace.
-YLH
It has been brought to my attention that your delusions about your great army`s 3-0 record is not your fault. Indian History Books claim that India thrashed China in the 1962 War and marched on Beijing.... So I see that this `Saddam Hussein` Mentality of claiming victory is a national psyche for you chaps (next time dont use my own analogy on me, I used the Saddam Hussain analogy first)....
Maybe some day India will come out of its delusions and superiority complex not to mention its ambitions of being the regional hegemon. That day maybe we shall have peace.
-YLH
#936 Posted by hobbyty on September 9, 2001 8:12:16 pm
Notice to all Chowkies - Re ``Ijtehad and Science``
All Caps in Parenthesis are mine.