Chowk, Jay, a Ditch and I

Nasah,

Dear Hasan that was a great Post by you. These fundoos are the real enemies of Pakistan, ironically enough they were opposed to the creation of Pakistan... yet they claim to its guardians today.

JINNAH CALLED FOR THE ABROGATION OF BLASPHEMY LAW 1927

Quaid e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah had advocated even the abrogation of the 1927 295 (A) on the grounds that it might infringe upon the honest debate on religion.

``I thoroughly endorse the principle, that while this measure should aim at those undesirable persons who indulge in wanton vilification

or attack upon the religion of any particular class or upon the founders and prophets of a religion, we must also secure this very important and fundamental principle that those who are engaged in historical works, those who are engaged in bona fide and honest criticisms of a religion,

shall be protected.``

An interesting article about Pakistan and the History of the Blasphemy Law is the following:

http://www.hindunet.org/alt_hindu/1995_Mar_2/msg00089.html

Re:Reply #: 1564

Brad Cruise

The perception that Pak is sponsoring terrorists is deep rooted in American media. I have already posted an article by Palmela Constable in Wash Post which confirsm to such a belief. This is not going away without change of ground realities. Mushy may win some brownie points by his media savvy techniques which our weak-keed P.M lacks but that`s about it. He cannot change policies or perceptions of USA which today heavily favor India. USA will do what it in its best interest. The whole world today is fighting terrorism and Pak is probably the only state which has become a training ground of terrorism. You think the world is dumb. Mushy is a dicatator. I pity Pakistanis who have reposed their faith on this scum.

Sridhar

Classic Indian argument style PART 4:

Pakistani Quotes Indian statisticians figures to prove the obvious Pakistan Air Force was the superior Air Force in the two wars.

Indian Chowkies replies with the accusation that the Pakistani is saying 1 Muslim = 10 Hindus.

Have Indians on this site got no shame at all?

ylh 1608

I dont care to respond to you mostly because you are plain stupid. You spin *facts * out of air by grabbing parts of information from here and there and dance around like a brainless monkey.

See if you can understand the following:

BY ITSELF RELIGION IS NOT GOOD NOR BAD. IT IS LIKE A KNIFE. USE IT IN THE KITCHEN OR SHOVE IT UP YOUR BACKSIDE.

GANDHI USED IT AS IT SHOULD BE USED IN THE KITCHEN. JINNAH SHOVED IT UP HIS CANCER-INFESTED REAR.

YOU ARE PAYING FOR IT. YOU WILL ALWAYS PAY FOR IT.

Why am I wasting time with a total fool?



Shame on you.

I dont get your argument though... everytime you cant answer me on facts, you attack Islam. Are you suggesting Islam and Pakistan are one and the same? If so what about the Muslim Minority in India? Do you want to kill them?

The anti-Islamic reaction of Rsaxena, Harimau and Gowardhan are adequate proof of India`s Hindu Character. So much for Indian efforts to decry the two nation theory... facts will remain facts... two nation theory is valid, not because we want it to be valid... but because people like Gowardhan, Rsaxena and Harimau cant look beyond their hindu noses.

-YLH

Bong Dong,

You say:

` #1597 another version of 1 muslim = 10 hindu?`

That maybe so, but the facts and figures quoted are from the site of an Indian Hindu Statistician... who provides facts for Bharat Rakshak.

Why do you Indians thrive on smart alec comments and for once atleast start accepting the facts.

Bong Dong,

Pakistan Air Force has defended the nation quite well, as facts are ample proof of it.... so I didnt understand the comment, unless you were commenting on the Indian Air Force... which really needs defending.

Once again we salute the valiant Pakistan Air Force for its heroics in 1965 and 1971... where it won fair and square in the air.

-YLH

hamidm 1595

[so please stop trying to insult my wife and daughters by insisting that they are ``mysterious`` and ``mythical`` creatures who, like unicorns and witches, deserve special consideration]

First step in enslavement and oppression of women is to say that women are not only different from men they are also *not human * the same way as are men. Once women are declared mythical mystical creatures they can be locked up inside houses with bared wires each with three other women and put to work full time at the mercy of men.

Nothing has changed. The same arguments for thousand years again and again. Not even new words. Shameful.

godot

... you asked jay about ahmedis, ``Are you insinuating (which you most certainly are) that even the liberal Pakistanis don`t care about it?``

...... over the last twenty five years the ahmedis in pakistan have been dehumanized to the point where no one, not even the tree-huggers and amnesty international card-holders, care about them .....

........ there was a time bashir sahib`s neighbours in islamabad didn`t know or care that he was a mirzai ... he was invited to their weddings, funerals and card-games, and mrs. bashir spent her mornings gossiping and drinking tea with the other ladies on the street ... the only thing different about the bashirs was that they prayed five times a day which was rather odd for the street-wallas at that time (now of course everyone prays) .... everyone talked to bashir sahib in those days - they would stop him in the street and ask him about how he could manage to grow a papaya tree in islamabad, and how his son was doing in the air force ......but now no one talks to him as he shuffles his way down the street behind his walker - they know he is a mirzai and to be avoided .......... the bashirs keep their gate locked most of the time and when the cricket ball lands in their yard the kids don`t know what to do .... they ring the bell and quitely wait, and most of the time mrs bashir patiently looks for the ball, finds it and tosses it out into the street ....... they don`t talk to her anymore - they don`t know her and she is afraid of them ........

Scout: ``normal healthy people have enough things to entertain themselves with.``

What these ``normal`` people consider entertainment... well that`s exactly the reality Im trying to escape from.

Hamidm: Id rather be a devout rastafarian then a muslim hypocrite any day. Theres better music, less death threats, the buzz doesnt last all night and the appetite is gone by morning...

Dear RSaxena: I am not an expert on this matter and actually have no personal experience although I grew up in Islamabad, walking distance from Bari Imam-a shrine to a sufi where bhang flows every thursday. Islamabad University is also couple of miles away from this place on the other side. Coming from lower middle class wahabi background, being a jammatia (student affiliated with Jamaat-e-Islami) and depletion of annual saving in killing a healthy goat every year took all the fun out of growing up-what hamidm was fortunate to enjoy at uet and Islamabad.

I tried to inject science and some chemical principles in my last post. I agree with you and hamidm that bhang should be taken lightly compared to other addictions. Harmless addiction for entertainment is much better than religious, harmful addiction. So many of the children of flower generation ended up pioneering computer, telecommunication and information technology revolution, Larry Elison, McAfee etc.

Stomach is evolved to handle all kind of junk with the help of strong acid, enzymes and stirring combination. It has strong inner linings to take care of most of the bhang ingredients and then passing on the waste liquid through kidneys. Lungs are not programmed to do any of this. It is a ``miracle of god`` that on one side he made so many complex structures and on the other, he does not like use of left hand, invisible both arms for women under burqa and asking blood sacrifice linked to lunar orbit around earth. Laughing!!!

hamidm: In my next incarnation, I would like to go to uet, bari imam, enjoy badam and char-maghaz laced bhang and good stereo system from bose before heading to USA-to become a Punjabi. May be I should try it during my next visit to Islamabad. I wonder if you know that Pathey Khan, the saraiki singer, was a great admirer and user of bhang. He always called it god`s favorite leaves and god`s favorite drink. I hereby propose to Musharraf and Vajpai to have several bhang drinks before scheduled meeting in New York. It might help breaking the ice.

rsridhar 1599

I agree partly. Devil is partly right also. For thousands of years continuous trickery of Islamists has been to kill and burn all local culture, local language, local festivals, local dress, local names by calling them unislamic, dirty, and evil. After all local input is destroyed people become ENSLAVED FOREVER. The ONLY THING THEY CAN PARROT IS ARABIC. THEY BEGIN TO HATE THEMSELVES, their own culture, their own ancestors. They despise their own parents who died trying to save their families and sing songs praising looters, rapists, and murderers as their saviors who brough LIGHT to them!

It is permanent full time total slavery. It is a very effective trick. Because a non arab will never be really arab he will never be an equal to an arab. Their women will never be equal to arab women. Their books will never be equal to arabic books. Their land will never be as holy as arabic land to which they MUST PAY TAX at least once in their life.

In the name of equality people are sold slavery and second class status for ever. Their only *scholars * will be al gazebos and clones. Best thing is, no body will have the guts to discuss this slavery because that will be anti Islam! Anybody speaking up for independence, for Punjabi, bengali, sindhi, Gujarati will be dubbed a kuffar, a friend of anti Islam satan.

Problems are very deep. Deeper because people cant see. If they see they cant talk. If they talk they are killed.

ITJEHAD FOR YOU! THE DYNAMISM OF ACTIVE, PURE, ISLAMIC DEMOCRACY!

ylh,

I posted #1578 yesterday night and expected a deluge of pakistani answers about Indian planes shot down in `71.

But no one has pointed out anything so far.



ylh, do you realise yet how you were conned ?

Today, you remember Yeager for his one-liner and not for the FACT that he quietly took away all the HARD WORK of your pilots and gunners - which was why he was sent in the first place.

``...the pakistani army would cart off these items for me, and when the war ended, it took two big American Air Force cargo lifters to carry all those parts back to the States for analysis by our intelligence division.``

In return, Yeager gave these 2 lines:

1) ``The Pakistanis whipped their asses in the sky...``

2) ``...the Pakistanis scored a 3-to-1 kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets and losing 34 of their own``. An obvious lie since most of the Indian planes were brought down by Ack-Ack. But it does keep you happy, doesn`t it.

Did the Americans gift the PAF anything else ? Sure, read on:

``Our government furnished the rails for Sidewinders. They bought the missiles and all the checkout equipment that went with them, and it was one helluva experience ...``

PAF shells out $20,000 and more for a Sidewinder. Americans throw in a $10 aluminium rail. Pakistanis Happy.

Did you get it, ylh ?

At least now, stop worshipping Charles Conman Yeager. Demand your war trophies back - at least a few.

Did PAF pilots die to provide mementos for Americans ?

best regards,

NEW YORK, Sep 9 (PNS): A California-based firm has been indicted by a federal grand jury on charges of violating US laws by exporting nuclear pulse generators to two Indian government organizations.

According to the indictment, Berkeley Nucleonic Corporation (BNC) and three of its employees solicited business and knowingly exported the nuclear pulse generators and related parts to various entities in India without an export license required by the U.S. Department of Commerce, reports IANS.

The indictment comes amid reports of the possible lifting of sanctions against India by the Bush administration and reported revising of the 1979 Export Administration Act by Congress.

According to court documents, the defendants -- BNC, David Brown, company president; Richard Hamilton, marketing director, and Vincent Delfino, former operations manager -- shipped five nuclear pulse generators since late 1998 when sanctions imposed in the wake of India`s nuclear tests were in place.

The defendants, court documents alleged, conspired to violate Export Administration Regulations by exporting U.S. origin goods and technology controlled to the Bhabha Atomic Research Center (BARC) and the Nuclear Power Corporation in Mumbai -- entities to which exports are controlled for national security` purposes. End

Here is the column by one of the Pakistan`s best columnists -- on the history of that ignoble Blasohemy law.

Justice-III

By Ardeshir Cowasjee

What has to be said again and again for as long as what remains of Jinnah`s Pakistan exists, and what must bear repetition ad infinitum, is one well known sentence from Mohammad Ali Jinnah`s momentous speech delivered on August 11, 1947: ``The first duty of a government is to maintain law and order so that the life, property and religious beliefs of its subjects are fully protected by the state.``

Lesser known is what he told the people of Australia in his broadcast of February 19, 1948: ``The great majority of us are Muslims. We follow the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad, may peace be upon him, we are members of the brotherhood of Islam in which all are equal in rights, dignity and self-respect. Consequently we have a special and very deep sense of unity. But make no mistake, Pakistan is not a theocracy, or anything like it. Islam demands from us the tolerance of other creeds and we welcome in closest association with us all those who, of whatever creed, are themselves willing and ready to play their part as true and loyal citizens of Pakistan.``

That month he also spoke on the radio to the people of the United States when he told them much the same thing: ``Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of man, justice and fair play to everybody. We are the inheritors of these glorious traditions and are fully alive to our responsibilities and obligations as framers of the future constitution of Pakistan. In any case, Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic state - to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have non-Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Parsis - but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizen and play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan.``

He said all this with faith in his legacy.

Since my last column, yet another citizen of Pakistan has been gunned down in Karachi merely because he was a member of the Shia sect of Islam. The Shias of Karachi and those who support the fundamental freedoms guaranteed to them by the Constitution of the Islamic Republic led a protest march two days ago. The result: stone throwing, broken windscreens, much disorder.

According to yesterday`s Dawn report on the incident, ``the law-enforcing agencies said that `It is still a blind murder and no major breakthrough has been achieved`.... five leaders are in custody and police have arrested ten more protesters and booked them for damaging public property.`` The oblique message of the law enforcement agencies to the Shias: we are unable to protect you from being killed and if you protest we will arrest you. The Shias are naturally angry and we can look forward to more protests and more arrests.

In various areas of Pakistan, over one hundred members of the Ahmadi community are under trial, charged and accused under the blasphemy laws operative in this country, some in custody, some not. Again and again they are called to appear before our courts only to be told that their cases have been adjourned for one good or bad reason. The strife continues.

One publication of our press did us a good turn on August 26 2001. A columnist of a national newspaper published from Lahore has traced the history of these blasphemy laws. It makes sad reading. I quote:

Section 295 of the Pakistan Penal Code dates back to 1860. It stipulates: ``Whoever destroys, damages or defiles any place of worship, or any object held sacred by any class of persons with the intention of thereby insulting the religion of any class of persons or with the knowledge that any class of persons is likely to consider such destruction, damage or defilement as an insult to their religion, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to two years, or with fine, or with both.``

In 1927, following the agitation involving the famous Rangila Rasul case, through the Criminal Law Amendment Act XXV, Section 295(A) was added. ``Whoever, with deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the religious feelings of any class of citizens, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations insults the religion or the religious beliefs of that class, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to two years, or with fine, or with both.`` (By the Second Amendment Act XVI of 1991 the term of imprisonment was extended to ten years.)

In 1982, under the PPC (Amendment Ordinance 1), Section 295(B) was added: ``Whoever wilfully defiles, damages or desecrates a copy of the Holy Qur`an or of any extract therefrom or uses it in any derogatory manner or for any unlawful purpose shall be punishable with imprisonment for life.``

In 1986, the Criminal Law (Amendment Act, III) was passed by the hand-picked pious members of champion of Islam General Zia-ul-Haq`s Majlis-e-Shoora headed by Mohammed Khan Junejo and it added Section 295(C), a weapon designed to be used for personal vengeance, a weapon with which scores can be settled, a weapon even to be employed for personal gain. It reads: ``Whoever by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation, or by imputation, innuendo, or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiles the sacred name of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace by upon him) shall be punished with death, or imprisonment for life, and shall be liable to fine.``

Around 1991, a person by the name of Ismail Qureshi, inspired by piety and holiness, petitioned the Shariat Court. In the name of the tolerant religion of Islam it was prayed that Section 295(C) prescribe only the death penalty with no option of life imprisonment. The Shariat Court, in its infinite wisdom, allowed the petition, and the decision was later upheld by the Shariat Appellate Court of the Supreme Court.

During the second round of Nawaz Sharif the suggestion was made that Section 295 be further amended so as to provide that anyone making a false accusation of blasphemy would himself be liable to the death penalty. It was shot down.

Come our second Ataturk , known to be a strong man with good intentions.

In April 2000, he instructed member of his national Security Council Attiya Inayatullah to organize a seminar on human rights. Very correctly he made a reference to the blasphemy laws, and realizing the criminal abuse they arouse and in an effort to prevent such abuse he announced his intention of amending the laws so that prior to the registration of an FIR, a deputy commissioner would be required to make investigations as to the veracity of the charge - a mere token change in the law but nevertheless a step in the right direction approved by the external world and by the sane and balanced internally. Later, for no good reason other than fear, he (the cowering commando) retreated and told the nation that such an amendment was not possible. A pity indeed.

Of course, had the amendment gone through, now it would not longer be the DCs who would investigate, but the Nazims installed by the general and his wise men.

Do we know if the institution of the Nazims is a step up or a step down from the institution of the DCs? In what way do the Nazims and DCs differ in their mindset, educational qualities and abilities? Only time will tell.

So, for the time being, and heaven knows for how long, we do not have a law amender. We will have perforce to depend on the law dispensers.

Is it possible that one day we may have a judge who has enough confidence in his faith and in himself so that when delivering a judgment he is able to say: I have heard what has been alleged and my faith in my religion tells me that even if the accused, as alleged, has by word spoken or written, by physical representation, by imputation, innuendo, or insinuation, directly or indirectly, done what he is accused of having done, which has not even been substantiated by sufficient evidence, he is not guilty of blasphemy. He is free to go.

Considering the intelligence endowed unto the vast majority, a tall order. But we can hope.``(Dawn)

Its indeed -- a very tall order -- taller than the Empire State building -- for the unendowed ``balishtiyas`` of the Pakistan`s ``educated`` elite -- the military -- the politicians -- the judiciary -- including some of the Pakistani talibans writing on Chowk -- who seem to triviliaze the death sentence of a medical Professor Dr. Younus Shaikh as something well deserved and routine.

The fact is that they are the ones who have turned Pakistan and the Muslim name -- into a weirdo and laughing stock of the civilized world.

THEY are the REAL enemies of Pakistani Muslims -- Not only that -- they are the WORST nightmare of the Indian Muslims as well -- not the Hindus like Rsaxsena.

hasan

USA

Maybe I am wrong here...

but I always thought the Air FOrce defended the nation rather than the other way around...

huh