Chowk, Jay, a Ditch and I

Attention Chowkwallahs:

Kindly examine the following paragraph and please explain to me how this individual has tried to prove that PAF was defeated in 1971 by the Quote he put up ?

`I am sorry to state, but the PAF indeed lost 1971 very badly .infact in explaining this fact I am reminded of US secretary of state Dean Rusk who wrote after his 1963 trip to South Asia: ``Fear,

distrust and hatred of India means that we cannot rely on Pakistan to act rationally and in what we think would be its own interests.`` `

Let us see what Yeager had to say about the 1971 war... I am reposting it for the benefit of the delusioned fellow `Vicklyer`

`The Pakistanis whipped their [Indians`] a$$es in the sky, but it was the other way around in the ground war. The air war lasted two weeks and the Pakistanis scored a three-to-one kill ratio, knocking out 102 Russian-made Indian jets and losing thirty-four airplanes of their own. I`m certain about the figures because I went out several times a day in a chopper and counted the wrecks below. I counted wrecks on Pakistani soil, documented them by serial number, identified the components such as engines, rocket pods, and new equipment on newer planes like the Soviet SU-7 fighter-bomber and the MiG-21 J, their latest supersonic fighter. `

So much for the great IAF victory of 1971!

Vicklyer Continued:

As for being brain dead, the attitude of Indian interactors on this board before and after the great tragedy is an adequate example of which nation is really brain dead, and believe me it is not Pakistan.

So you can believe your little fantasy story of India`s great democracy, and the victory of IAF in 1971 when they lost 4 planes to every one PAF plane... but facts will remain facts.

Now stop being stupid and drop this topic because unlike you, I will only fight on facts, a fight you obviously will lose.

Let us for reference keep up Yeager`s excerpts again so that it is abundantly clear to fools like

`Vicklyer` who dont know the ABCD about Pakistan, Air Force or anything .....

http://www.piads.com.pk/users/piads/yeager1.html

Maybe you will see in shame the 1:4 ratio of kills by your `victorious` Air Force.... like I said before ... if 1971 was a victory for IAF, then I shudder to think what `defeat` must have been like.

-YLH

PS: Vicklyer, Indians have shown in the past that they can talk big.... but facts dont usually match this claim ... care to check some figures by your Indian historian?

http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/aces.htm

an aside from the great tragedy :

Vicklyer, like all Indians you havent quoted any facts and figures... the Kill ratio for PAF vs IAF was 4: 1 as per the testimony of Yeager.... No Indian source has claimed a victory for IAF...

But people like you are misled individuals.... If 1971 was a victory in the air for IAF, I shudder to think what defeat would be like.

Hobby: My personal beliefs are insignificant, and largely irrelevent to the greater issues we`re discussing (especially in light of the happenings in america)...

If you must know, I am a practicing Jain. If you are unaware of them, know that i havent intentionally killed a fly in ten years and would never, ever, EVER consider killing an ant. Moreover, Ive spent too much time on spirituality to be conquered by my base desires (which you suggest)... I believe strictly in non violence, I dont go around hitting people with bats...

However, as Taoism says, we must be as flexible as water, able to take many forms, while maintaining our core propeties (liquid/gas...H2O) therefore I do not believe in thinking in terms of absolutes.

If I was made PM in Pakistan today, I would immediately call for the capital punishment of these acid throwers (and their ilk), even though I do not believe in capital punishment. I will not tolerate women being threatened, having to walk around for their whole lives disfigured, being killed and burnt etc. Then I would make an inquiry to why these animals behave in such a manner and move to try to change their views. If they refuse I would tell them that they risk capital punishment if they continue.

And I feel the need to reiterate: this is NOT my first instinct. Had I caught the perpetrator I would console him if he was scared, talk to him, tell him my opinion that the social custom prevelent in his time is wrong etc. Killing him would be the last thing on my mind, but for the betterment of my sisters, my queens, I wouldnt hesitate to slit his throat. Understand this dilineation.

Lastly, I do understand both your and asifs beliefs because I used to agree with you both. I used to petition for the murder of (the brilliant) mr rushdie and later thought that a simple platform of compassion could change the world.

To be brutally honest, its important to look at everything cyclically and in dualities. There are two types of people, extremists and moderates. When one group is in power, it becomes the ``moderate.`` History is simply and exhange of power between these two groups. The word REVOLUTION is important, stemming from the root to REVOLVE-History is a 180 degree turn from group to group...Do NOT waste time searching for an EDEN. Make life as decent as possible, cuz we ARE living in hell...

``The legel process`` This is amibiguity at its best. What should happen to acid throwers? This is the 3rd time this question is being asked to you, Im in no mood for dodgeball...

Salam.

Is RSaxena okay? Doesn`t he work on wall street.

samina #1719-20-23:

...I believer in capital punishment for heinous crimes...after full and due process of law...and at the same time I abhor any unnecessary waste of life...these attacks are sad...am always saddened by any loss of life...anywhere...whatever the cause...and no am no dithering nincompoop...understand fully the cruel unjust times we live in...but a loss of innocent life is a loss I abhor...be it in karachi, new york, palestine or kashmir...also regardless of whether the perpetrator is an individual, organization or state...

...in this instance two more relevant thoughts come to mind...

...security in US is lax...if one were to believe that at least four planes were hijacked...they talk about the two that hit the world towers, one that crashed in pentagon and the fourth that crashed near camp david, pa...what are the chances of more planes being hijacked?... and succeeding in their missions?...the perpetrators not only had to enter the premises of the airports...enter he planes...overpower the crew...at least two or three in the cockpit...and fly into their target...and the timings...the co-ordination...and one cannot just enter a cockpit and aim the plane at a building or target as if one is driving a car!...

...secondly, taking these plane attacks in conjunction with the Sep. 09 attack in israel by saker hubashi one of a million plus israeli arab...i think this has blown a huge gap and blown bush jr.’s star war strategy to smithereens...while appeasing friends (defence industries) and antagonizing foes (russians) and acting as a world bully and securing air space around us and its allies from terrorist attacks he forgot about a viable deterrent against attacks from within...

sadly,

t

PS: have also posted this on the breaking news site.

I dont believe this ... I dont... I am still in shock ... I saw the world trade center South Tower go down on TV ...

Pakistan, and all Muslim countries should support the US...

My God, Hobbyty, it is truly terrible. There are reports are people falling or jumping out of buildings...it is reported that NYC is experiencing unprecedented damage and casualties. The innocents in the hijacked plane, in the buildings and who will be bombed in retaliation.This city is being closed down. God help us.

Saminashah

Oh, my God - Unbelievable - absolutely unbelievable. The total number of fatalities is unknown, but it could be in the hundreds and thousands, even. I just saw a tape on news of the building collapsing.

Of course Muslims will be blamed for this and of course they will suffer - new thousands to the list of dead. Unbelieveable.

PM

Sorry if I came across as patronizing - perhaps we have become to used to the constant hostility towards all, here at Chowk - Allow me explain: In presenting this work, My hope was to initiate a discussion, instead, there is little discussion, much hostility - I had hoped we would explore the ideas - in the selfish hope that I may learn more, instead I am now like a defender, chief promoter of the ideas - and this was not what I started this for - And anyway, what you may find patronizing - well, I just happy somebody will take the time to explore this and discuss it and of course I`m thrilled that it takes place without being called bigot, hypocrite and such.

The Pentagon has been hit also; NYC under full terrorist alert; all subways, and tunnels have been closed, all airport runways have been closed across the nation,...

zabed #458 ``Yes, Ahmedis are pious and say 5 prayers regularly but trouble is they themselves conside them different from other muslims, e.g. sunni. ``

Interestingly, in the Quran the Jewish claims to being a Chosen People is condemned (the claim is condemned, not the people or the jewish or any other religion, I may add since the Quran refers approvingly to all religions and refers to itself as simply being the Arabic Quran as opposed to the Quran in other languages) and yet we Muslims turn around and act as if we are the Chosen People instead!! Seems like ignorance of Islam as revealed to the Holy Prophet is something Sunnis and Ahmedis and Shias all share with one another. And as the Quran says, a characteristic of non-believers is that they break up into sects while true believers live in harmony with one another and are not concerned with any differences in belief.

Two planes have crashed into The World Trade Center in New York. If this is the work of fundamentalists, we can thank them when the US retaliates and bombs civillian populations in the developing world...

Hamidm,

Carrying the discussion forward - there can be no absolute morals - as people`s idea of morality can change with time. The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.

However, every religion seems to have some absolute core tenets and if these do not stand the test of time, I think the religion will either have to evolve or die out. If a religion is rigid and also has too many do`s and dont`s, I suppose it faces greater risk that it is not followed.

The Hindu religion (if you can call it one religion) has few core tenets (or my knowledge is limited). Most rules are by caste/community... and they are being broken as they are not suitable for the modern age.