Chowk, Jay, a Ditch and I

Dost-mittar:

So George Bush should not have a name after St.George--the patron saint of Orange Order?

Are you suggesting that his name should be like that of a Cherokee or Cheyene?

And Krishna Hindus(as opposed to Shaviites)should have names like those of AAdivaasis?

Hizurrehmaan is a lot of crap--notwithstanding his name.He has proven that even with an Arabic name he is capable of being a commie or atheist or heathen.

I still admire your stance on many issues.

WASSALAAM.

I see Squardon Leader Hamdani is scrambling to defend the PAF

Dost Mittar

It made me sad to read your posts, both the one to me and to YLH and Others.

It seems you find it difficult to read anything that conflicts with the chauvanism of Hindutva. I also find it sad that you do not see the danger in this. It is a tranistory moment of false pride for which many others will pay a price for a longer time. You present it as ``Hindu good, Muslim bad``, bad most observer will see through that construct. The truth about Hindutva is the creation of a false racial majority (Aryans) by misinterpreting history. It`s second tenet is the claim that hinduism is synonomous with the historical record. That this record is used to support the concepts of Punyabhoomi and Pitribhoomi.

When you support the view of history of India that you do (one, linear history) You are actually supporting the Hindutva version.

Indians deserve respect, even if for something, they never were?

Such is the degree of chauvanism that Hindutva types seek to rewrite and reinterpret history - No longer are Indians, Dravidians, but Aryans. keep the caste system alive, what ever the costs.

Punyabhoomi, Pitribhoomi:

As for Pakistanis, Did these Arabic and Persian, names exist with British India? Over Punyabhoomi, over Pitribhoomi, Or did Pakistanis invent these names in 47? Yes, of course they were trying to get away from their ``Indianness``, they deny Punyabhoomi. Clearly it is time that Muslim Indians may seek evaluate their Arabic names, lest they want to be foreigners and aliens in the land of their birth. And as a Pakistani, I too, must evaluate my achute ancestory. But what is there to evaluate, Who else but achute could possibly want to be Muslims. And if they affirm their Muslimness, who esle but the achute would turn their back on the Punyabhoomi? Perhaps you may one day reconcile with yourself and perhaps one day you will not find the need to define yourself as a single racial group. One race, one history, one holy nation, Punyabhoomi, Pitribhoomi, one patrimony. Noble ambitions, certainly. But you say you are not a Hindutva supporter. It`s all Nehru`s fault.

Aamir 1742

Kindly write in urdu or farsi. I am sure there must be some sense in what you keep spitting.

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ylh #1724 ``Pakistan, and all Muslim countries should support the US...`` I understand Khatami in Iran has offered all help to the US. The line between good and evil was never so clear as today. God bless this great nation, the USA.

Re Aamir (#1707):

The impact of Islamic teachings, derived primarily from Quran and hadith, on a Muslim mind and thought process cannot be overstated. I am not against this impact of Quran and hadith. Rather, being a Muslim, I am all for it. However problem arises when Quran and hadith are misunderstood and yet applied with brute force in shaping one’s perspective in life.



European history in the dark ages is but one such example, when a misguided, overbearing clergy controlled people’s lives and thoughts. When Gallileo discovered planetary motion and proclaimed that earth orbits around the sun, the Church was not happy. Mr. Genius was imprisoned and threatened till he recanted his statements. Later when Europeans separated religion from science, they started to make scientific progress at a more rapid pace. This seems to explain why the contemporary scientific community tends to have an atheistic bend in their thinking.

On to the issue of Hindus “with fantasy of 12 arms, a monkey yielding tumbora, 1/2 rat & 1/2 elephant” who are well versed in “sub phyllum & species of origin& darwin” … here are my thoughts.

I think that Hindus in general have also separated religion from their daily lives. For example, they do not typically refer to Bhagvad Gita or Vedas, or the lives of Ram or Krishna to address contemporary issues of women’s rights. They tend to make judgments based upon their everyday understanding of life and move on. Compare this to the approach of a typical Muslim who frequently refers to Quranic verses and hadith to address such issues. Note that I am not taking a position regarding which one is a better approach here.



Muslims generally make a strong effort to integrate religion into their daily lives. This effort at such a massive scale is somewhat unique to Islam in this day and age. I am sure there are some Hindus who strongly refer to their scriptures on regular basis and try to integrate it into their daily lives. They may believe in multi-headed gods, while studying biology and chemistry. Conversely, there is a large number of Muslims who study physics and medicine, and still believe that Issa-ibne-Marriam (Jesus Christ) resides in sky even after two thousand years of his birth. Strong attempts by one to integrate such a belief system in daily life leads to conflicts in one’s mind at a very basic level and impede one’s intellectual progress.

In short, the problem is not with integrating religion into one’s life. Rather, the problem lies with misinterpreting religion while integrating it in one’s life. This seems to be a major dilemma for the contemporary Muslims.

Personally, being an Ahmadi-Muslim, I firmly believe in basing my life on the principles of Quran and teachings of the dear Prophet (pbuh). Although correct understanding of religion remains critical as this is done. Moses parting the Red Sea, instant creation of Adam and Eve and their lives in paradise, Issa-ibne-Marriam residing in the sky, the story about dajjal and more, as understood by mainstream Muslims, do not cut it. Similarly, on the issue of crime and punishment, Blasphemy Laws in Pakistan are a clear example of misinterpretation of Islam by overzealous and misguided clergy. With such beliefs occupying the minds of a large number of Muslims, it is no wonder that there are not many innovative thinkers and scholars produced by the Muslim community.

You state that Islam is rationality and that I (i.e. Sattar) have lost faith in Islam. While I agree that Islam is rational, I see nothing rational about these “added” beliefs that have corrupted the original Islamic teachings. You have a problem with Ahmadi-Muslims accepting the claims of prophethood by Mirza Sahib. Yet you readily accept the idea that Issa-ibne-Marriam has been residing in the sky for two thousand years, and will eventually descend to the earth on the shoulders of two angels, in the days of the one-eyed monster, dajjal. Go figure. Now, tell me, exactly how do you define rationality when you call these ideas rational!

I’ll ignore other absurd comments in your post, as they are largely irrelevant to the discussion.

In this post I have tried to sum up some of my basic observations and opinions. Corrections and thoughtful comments from anyone will be much appreciated.

Asad Sattar

Pankaj,

Can you kindly also examine the facts provided by me and ascertain if they also are reliable....

To say that IAF won the war in 1971 is as stupid as saying Pakistan won the 1971 war....

`Check the references produced by MastRam as well as Vicky Iyer. They are authentic and reliable foreign sources. Perhaps you will then realize that ``facts`` point in a direction different from what you believe.`

Then why dont facts of Bharat Rakshak and the Indian statisticians point in that direction ... would you like to examine that site once again eh?

THE SITE OF THE INDIAN STATISTICIAN WHICH PROVES BEYOND THE SHADOW OF A DOUBT THAT PAF HAS ALWAYS BEEN A BETTER MORE PROFESSIONAL AIRFORCE THAN IAF.

THIS SAME STATISTICIAN PROVIDES FIGURES FOR BHARAT RAKSHAK:

http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/aces.htm

There was nothing conclusive in what Vicklyer posted except his own assertions and observations ... which were false.

Cant you for once not accept the truth as all mature Indians have done so in the past... PAF flies better than IAF!

Gowardhan:

`Ylh never let facts come between him and stupidity. He wont start now.`

This coming from a person who thrives on sweeping statements, fallacies and bs.... Wonderful Gowardhan... if all Indians are like you I pity all of you.

I have always made a claim and backed it up by a credible source usually Indian or foreign... have you ever done the same ? NO!

You are the stupidest most idiotic bugger I have ever seen anywhere ....

Pakhan, and sada kay Hindu fanatic Gowardhan:

I have examined the evidence provided and nothing backs up the erroneous claim that `IAF won the 1971 war`.... Even Indian statistics come up with 1:2 ratio ... Now I have never heard of an Air Force winning and still having downed only one to every 2 of their air crafts... The fact ofcourse is that it is 3 of their aircrafts.....

But then objective analysis of facts was beyond Hindu Fanatics from India anyway.

Pankan 1733

Ylh never let facts come between him and stupidity. He wont start now.

Zafar

Oh , You mean Kakey Da Hotel? LOL Of course, I know Kake Da Hoel...I was quite perplexed by the Lahorian Dee Hatti name. I do know a Multani da Dhaba in Lajpat Nagar, but that`s a small place. Kake Da Hotel is great. Will be a pleasure to go..

Hamidm et all...

``Reality is just a crutch for people who can`t handle drugs.``

-Robin Williams

Ylh#1733

``No one is debating the quality of life in South Asia ... you made an erroneous claim about the Indian War record... I confronted you with facts, you said you had foreign articles supporting your erroneous claims and contentions.... then you failed to produce any.

``

Check the references produced by MastRam as well as Vicky Iyer. They are authentic and reliable foreign sources. Perhaps you will then realize that ``facts`` point in a direction different from what you believe.

Rsaxena,

No one is debating the quality of life in South Asia ... you made an erroneous claim about the Indian War record... I confronted you with facts, you said you had foreign articles supporting your erroneous claims and contentions.... then you failed to produce any.

Please correct me if I am wrong but the debate started with Sigalph congratulating me on Pakistan Defence Day, and making justified Pro-PAF comments.