Caught In Between

Re:Reply #: 505

RSaxena,

The only support to Pak on Kashmir comes from some Arabic countries in the form of passing a resolution (always unanimous!)by the OIC. Many of these countries` ambassadors privately have told the Indian diplomats that they actually do not care much about Kashmir but had to vote condemning India in order to follow the policy of unanimity.

Sridhar

sawari, why do you have to always compare yourself with India. India doesnot matter here. What matters is what is done in pakistan. If India jumps into $hit, would all pakistanis do the same. Well if you want to wallow in $hit one can only pity you.

Also you do come to some pretty wild conclusions about my nationality. You did better take logic 101, or is it that the college you are paying to get a degree from doesnot do this. If so then the money invested is a waste, a madrasa would be better for, or better still, you should stick to the kitchen and make the rotis for the men!

Ah! forgot, you can do better than that. You can prey on.....

TAI chief supports Musharraf, condemns attacks on US

ISLAMABAD: Chairman Tehrik-e-Akhuwat-e- Islam (TAI) Allama Inayat Ali Shakir has extended full support to the President General Pervez Musharraf and termed his decision to cooperate against terrorism as right step in the right direction.

Addressing a press conference, he also strongly condemned attacks on America and termed them brutal acts against humanity.

``The whole Islamic world in general and America in particular are facing a serious situation and the present step by the president of Pakistan is a right step in the existing scenario``.

Shakir said that the government has shown courage in this sensitive hour and the joining hands of the international community is the right and just step taken by the government.

``The steps taken by the government enjoy full support of the people hence the whole nation should stand united at this critical juncture and condemn all such attacks on the innocent lives``.

The recent attacks on America are the acts of terrorism and the whole nation is with the present government`s decision, Shakir maintained.

``We should take the national interest first and sacrifice our personal interests as the nation is facing serious crisis now``.

He said that Islam condemns terrorism in all its forms as it does not allow anybody to target innocent citizens. International community should stand united in this situation to curb terrorism, Allama maintained.

He demanded that any organization involved in the terrorist attacks should be dealt with sternly and must be tried in the International Court Justice.

He also condemned the Indian propaganda against Pakistan and assured that the nation and the world community will not allow it to proceed with its propaganda.

He also urged the Taleban government to make a strategy after having hectic consultations with the Pakistan government, Shakir concluded.

Zafar, Narain, Ayesha Sarwari, YLH, Romair, Shammi, DOst, Urstruly

- below is a address for a chat session with Dr. Stephen Cohen - I encourage all interested to read and participate:

http://www.brookings.org/comm/chat/cohen010906.htm

With the power vested in me by Hindu Satans, I hereby announce the formation of a group dedicated to protecting the interests of Cockroaches and their mutated siblings in homosapiens- the Hindus. I have been informed by a council of learned Ulemas of Afganistan that our place is right next to roaches in hierarchy. Snakes are placed slightly above us. We will fight to defend the interests of roaches and Hindus everywhere in the world. I offer Latif Chappu, the self appointed President of Chappustan the leadership of this organisation. In his absence, I will continue to serve as a humble member. People are invited to suggest the group song, group logo, group`s constitution etc. Members to this club are welcome.

ref: Hobbyty #488

1. ``I suppose we will not agree about Kashmir being disputed.`` I doubt that we will because we start off with very different assumptions. Your underlying belief is a) India oppresses Kashmiris because they like doing so (and this may be related to the fact that most Kashmiris are muslim) and b) the Kashmiris naturally want to go to Pakistan (again because they are muslim).

I (and most Indians) on the other hand start off with the belief that a) Kashmiris would be given the same rights and priveleges as any other Indian if it were not for the armed ``struggle``....maybe even more. A political settlement with them is possible b) Kashmiris have demonstrated in `47 and in `65 that they have no love lost for the Pakistanis, and therefore Pakistan has no stake in that state.

2. About Ms Jalal`s book: Nasty jab that about the ``Pakistani, but still a scholar`` :) I hope that though I may appear unsympathetic to the Pakistani point of view, I do not appear unable to appreciate your arguments. Strange though it may sound, I would consider myself a friend of Pakistan.

I cannot promise you that I will be able to read the book as I am pressed for time this semester. But may I ask how she distinguishes between a real threat from India and a ``perceived`` threat? India certainly is responsible for the former, but not necessarily for the other. May I also ask how she compares the case of Pakistan with that of Israel, another country which faces a large perceived threat and has a large defense establishment,but has managed to keep the armed forces in check?

3. ``About why Pakistan armed forces would not back down. They have always been the underdog, and they train to fight from that position.`` Hobbyty I do not profess to understand the psyche of the Pakistani military, people whom I have never had any contact with. My question was only why their responses would be so markedly different when they faced a real threat from the US as compared to the alleged threat they face from India? I would think that the army had invested majorly in the taliban, probably comparable to their investment in Kashmir. Yet in one case they so quickly backed down before the US, and in the other they are on the offensive. The difference cannot lie in their psyche (which is unchanged), but most likely in their estimation of the real threat.

4. ``Is that why custodial killings take place with regularity in captive Kashmir?`` If you are asking me whether India has something to hide in Kashmir, my reply would be Yes! it most certainly does. We are fighting a war in a civilian area, and unfortunately our armed forces are not trained to handle such situations. The results are very messy. It is enough to make one hang down one`s head in shame, but not enough to make one give up the fight. After all, ``all`s fair in love and war``, and our enemies have not shown any scruples either. Indians would not be able to countenance such behaviour from their government if the Kashmiris` struggle was peaceful. But then it isn`t, is it?

And political leaders are now free to conduct their poiltical activities. The hurriyet meets whenever they want to, plan demonstrations, organize hartals, everything. They have not been stopped from organizing together.

BTW, what is the statistic for custodial killings in Karanchi during its worst days? And when is the govt. likely to remove the ban on political parties assembling together in Pakistan?

5. ``But there is not a freedom struggle in Azad Kashmir``: Maybe not. But if Pakistan was so convinced that the Kashmiris in POK wanted to stay with them, why make their representatives promise their allegiance in the first instance? Further let me reverse your question and ask you: do people there have any peaceful way of letting Pakistan know about whether they want to stay with Pakistan or not?

Hobbyty, I do not wish to obfuscate any issue. But like Pakistan, India too held elections in its part of Kashmir, and until the 1990s, that state was as peaceful as any other part of India. Now if peace and elections are a sign that POK wants to stay with you, then by the same token till 1990 the Kashmiris too indicated that they were satisfied with India. If these indicators are not enough, then one must concede that there has been no ``free and fair`` vote in POK either for the past 54 years.

6. ``Has India ever instituted democracy and free elections in Captive Kashmir?`` Well to the same extent that it did so in other states, it has. Vote rigging and installing/removing govt.s at whim was the done thing with Mrs. Gandhi. Not only Kashmir, but many other states have also been victims of this. In that sense, Kashmir has not been specially discriminated against.

7. Re: negotiated settlement: India is all for it. Our offer is the same as it has always been. You take POK and we keep what we have.

-narain

Nameless,

In Pakistan about many women are killed annually in the tribal areas in the name of honor. The more attention you bring this the better.

In India however recent reports have 5000 women burnt alive annually and brutally murdered for the reason that they did not bring adequate dowry after marriage.

Our tribals are a disillusioned lot who think they are preserving honor. You people are materialistic savages!

Before you tell us to watch our home, you watch yours. The point is we are only linked by foreign policy. And I`d appreciate it if you stick to that.

Aisha

Re: #490

``My fear is that USA may actually encourage the military dictatorship in Pak if Mushy proves to be useful to them and carries out all orders to USA`s satisfaction. USA has been known to prop up dictatorships if it suits them. If that happens, Pak Army may continue its policy of jehad in Kashmir as before and Uncle Sam will look the other way. Worse still, US may pressurise India to solve the issue at Pak`s advantage. There is no way of predicting what all this may lead to.``

rsridhar,

I think we Indians are a bit too impatient and worry a little too much on this issue.

Going by TV news and various discussions, the Americans clearly recognize Islamic Terrorism to be the culprit - even though they may say and pretend otherwise. The White Man, master of logic, has narrowed down the reason for young middle class muslims to kill themselves while killing unknown innocents and bringing down buildings.

Whether the Dictator exists or not, the death knell for jehad or Islamic terrorism has been sounded.

Lets be patient. Good days are ahead.

regards,

Why has no Pakistani ever tried to explain why even the Arabs don`t pay much attention to its propoganda and pathetic crying over Kashmir? I can understand that the West is too greedy for India`s markets the Jewish-Hindu conspiracy is at work, etc. etc. etc. But what about the Arabs? The best they will do is pay lipservice in some written document that Pakistan pushes at Islamic country meetings, but that`s about it. What about snapping diplomatic relations with India? Or making comments against it at the UN? Or charging higher oil prices? Something? Anything?

Heck, last I checked Iran out of all places is getting friendly with India in a bid to sneak arms to the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan.

Seems like Pakistanis who croak about Kashmir should look into deep into their hearts of darkness and ask why no one is buying their story.

Sawari, while the likes of you and YLh tilt at windmills, the world goes round and is moving. While pakistan is trown some crumbs for doing the right, morally correct and correct things the world is moving forward. The heeng-oozers you talk of so glibbly are moving forward all the while. The moral is donot look for demons where there are none. If at all look for them in you. Is that not what the kuran says - god cannot help those who cannot (or are unwilling) to help or change themselves in the first place. Look forward, not backward in time. Rise up above the mundane and think the unthinkable.

Anyway read the following in NYT and think about it for sometime:

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/technology/tech-tech-india-exhibition.html?searchpv=reuters

Headline: India Internet Show to Exhibit New Web

Technologies

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - Asia`s largest Internet show kicks off in the Indian capital on Wednesday with plans to showcase a range of technologies on using the web more efficiently after the dotcom meltdown.

Some 70 firms participating in the three-day India Internet World will offer their expertise on leveraging the web for Internet-based finance and customer management, digital commerce, web procurement and virtual infrastructure.

Ferozk Thanks for the detailed reply. I will be posting a reply soon.

Sawari #493

(PS: I am not racist! I dislike the people in India who fail to be honest about the actions their Government takes and its dire consequences for other parties. )

The pot calling the ke.....comes to mind.

For a start you are a bigot, and like the little denizens of soho who prey on decadent human flesh, you too prey on the illiterate, like a little pustile. But then you have a dislike for people who you call `heeng-oozers`.

Regarding Indian people....about their govt actions. Boy, you are really short sighted, and are in need of a good education. I wonder, where your honesty went when people were lynched because they allegedly blashphemed. I wonder where your anger went WHEN THE GOVT REFUSED TO TAKE ACTION AGAINST HONOUR KILLINGS. All I can see is a silence, stunning one at that. Its all a part of the culture. I wonder where your honesty was/is when you see terrible crimes, including inducement and encouragement for suicide being played out in the fileds of Pakistan

For once in your little benighted life sto being the hypocrite. Look at yourself first in the mirror. If the Indians want to wallow in their little pit let them do it. First set the house in order.

But then what can one say to a bigot, oozing with puss, and who preys on ......

``The U.S. Response Needs to Focus on terror Aims

Philip Bowring – International Herald Tribune Sept. 25, 2001

Oxford, England: Terror is winning. No effort is being spared to plan to strike back against terrorists but recognizing and countering the primary objective of terrorism is being given scant attention. The bin Ladens of the world are not primarily driven by blood lust. Spectacular massacres are just a means to an end. That end, like that of 19th century anarchists, is confusion, the disruption of the status quo, the undermining of societies and economic relationships. How have they been faring since the Sept. 11 devastation? In no particular order we find:

• The U.S. economy is in sharp retreat, with production falling due to fear of flying, traffic disruption, collapse of consumer sentiment in the face of talk of a long war and ``clash of civilizations.`` Already economic losses are many times greater than the physical losses inflicted by the attack.

• Fears are becoming globally contagious, the economic downturns self-fulfilling. The cascade effect is beginning to undermine the assumptions of globalization. The contribution to world prosperity provided by the post-Cold War, U.S.-led push toward global economic integration is at risk. Free flow of capital is under scrutiny, and opposition to free trade escalates as recession spreads. That is just the erosion of a U.S.-$ led world order that Osama bin Laden wants.

• For all the efforts of political leaders to avoid casting Muslims generally as scapegoats, a nasty rift may be emerging between the majority and the 7 million strong minority in America`s midst. That could spread to Europe. Sept. 11 is already bringing about calls for much tighter restrictions on immigration. As in 1941, liberal traditions may be the losers from popular anger. Another win for Mr. bin Laden.

• After the initial sharing of horror, strains are emerging between the United States and its allies in Europe, Latin America and Asia over the correct response, and over the broader aims of the ``war on terrorism.`` Again, Mr. bin Laden must be pleased.

• Key governments in the Muslim world are running scared of local reactions to the U.S. reaction, whatever that may be. High on the list is Saudi Arabia. If Mr. bin Laden has one objective other than creation of chaos, it is the destruction of the Western-oriented but feudal regimes of the Arab world. Everywhere in the region, including key countries like Egypt and Turkey, the opposition uses Islam as a banner. Overreaction to his ``threat`` could produce the revolutionary atmosphere Mr. bin Laden wants.

• The shock waves go further east to populous Islamic countries hitherto remote from Middle Eastern passions. The danger within Pakistan is obvious. Less so is the potential of a prolonged struggle to destabilize Indian domestic politics, encouraging the anti-Islam fanatics in the Hindu movement and turning India`s 100 million Muslims toward extremism. The possibility of overt conflict over Kashmir has increased. .Indonesia`s commitment to a secular system, religious balance and an open economy survived the Asian economic crisis and transition from Suharto to democracy. But with the world`s largest Muslim community, the last thing its new president, Megawati Sukarnoputri, needs is a cause around which radical Islam might rally. I viewed the attack from Chicago, felt the aftermath in New York and here have heard global experts at the annual gathering of Oxford Analytica. It is clear that collateral damage is being noted but seldom seen as the core of the terrorists` aims. We are told that the world has changed, which generates fears out of all proportion to dangers. (It is many times safer to travel by air than by car.) Apart from intelligence systems and airline security, what needs radical change? . It may be painful to accept, but killing Americans was just a means to a bigger end. Events since Sept. 11 - global reactions - have served Mr. bin Laden`s purpose. Fear, war hysteria, consumer retreat, international suspicions and communal tensions are the trap. Desire for revenge is natural. Punishment of the guilty is desirable. But the self-interest of the living - preservation of our systems, avoidance of fear, addressing of the resentments that are the sea in which terrorists swim - must come first. Reactions must be judged by their consequences for confounding the aims of terror. Otherwise, even if the battle to punish is won, the ``war`` against those aims will be lost.``

Zafar

First things first - Yes, we disagree, sometimes deeply - but we have built civility between us and I can say there is a level of trust between us and that our disagreements are not due to ill will - having said that, I will proceed to undo all of it - Just kidding:

Like I said to Narain - there is really too vast a distance between our understanding of the meaning of events in Captive Kashmir. I will again bring to your attention that there is no war in Azad Kashmir, there is no occupation army in Azad Kashmir, there are no routine custodial and extra-judicial killings in Azad Kashmir, Azad Kashmiris are not joining any ``liberation`` or ``Freedom struggle`` in Azad Kashmir because the need does not arise.

Independent Kashmir? Yes, if that is the call of the majority - but let`s not be creative, there is no significant support for this idea. Kashmir is an issue that relates to the original partition, not something new.

Would I favor a vote or negotiated settlement, for my money, it`s the vote. While a negotiated settlement would have allowed for Indian defence and economic consideration.

Please read Ayesha Jala`s book, I also recommended to Narain. If nothing else, it may give you an insight into why Pakistanis believe India is it`s mortal enemy, that India has not been able to reconcile itself to the creation of Pakistan. And how Pakistani society has been shaped by this perception. The whole point of offering Pakistan armed forces to the West was designed to get arms and training to be able to counter the Indian.

``Do or Die mission`` - Musharraf did not mean he will explode nuclear weapons upon India. He warned Vajpayee, Jaswant and Advani, that we will target and destroy the capablity. The number of warheads is still small, and the warheads have not been attached to the delivery system.

On the mining for ``larger numbers`` in India: Zafar, it is the hope and ambition of those who see the radicalization of Muslims in Kashmir, that there exists within Muslim India, a larger opportunity. Before you get bothered by the mere suggestion - consider. Out of the 120 million, if .01 percent can become radicalized, is this a small nucleus? Nucleus!! And are there not elements, non-Mulsim elements, that are already radicalized and do their best to bring about a confrontation between adherents of different religions in India?

Taliban

Yes, Taliban are predominantly Pustoon and Sunni. The forces that comprise the Northern alliance are include Shia supported by Iran and ethnic Tajiks supported by Russia and India. Taliban did not start out with the objective of being exclusive, yet ethnic, tribal and religious affiliations do play a part, especially since they are a very large majority. Afterall, has there been a Muslim Prime Minister of India? of Russia?, France? or a Sunni Prime minister or President or Shah of Iran, since the declaration of Shiism as a the official State religion (Iran is a nation of minorities, the largest being Turk, a majority of whom are Sunni), is Dilip a Hindu? Why was Yusuf Khan not acceptable? Has there ever been a Catholic President of US, other than Kennedy? Is the Pope other than Catholic?

Afghanistan and the coming conflagration:

“This business in Afghanistan has all the potential of becoming percieved as a war against Islam”

Hobbyty, only if Muslims perceive it as such, and that is in the hands of ordinary Muslims like you and me. I don’t see it that way. Do you?

Yes Zafar, I agree that to some extent it is in our hands and also I think that you are being too trusting of the motives of the American Administration.

What is about it Indians, that they deposit all faith and good in the hands of people thousands of miles away and deposit all evil in their own neighbors and peolpe with whom they have had relations for more than a millenia?

Only Muslim perception is at work here then? yes? Been on a flight recently? or a grocery store or anywhere else where you have identified yourself as Al-Talib? What do you think of those perceptions?

This thing is not only about arresting Mr. OBL and associates. Arresting OBL could have been done a while back, why didn`t the American do it then? I have suspicions that the American, like in Saudi Arabia, will not leave. Just too close to China. I also think that there will be a host of perhaps unintended consequences and a host of responses to this presence that far from bringing stability will only bring misery, poverty and unstability. If Pakistan cannot manage a restructured Taliban and Afghanistan will begin to fragment, will Pakistan step in to fill the void? Will Afghanistan be broken into little pieces? Will China act to safe guard it`s interests, Will Iran? Will Tajikistan be spared? And then what? How will India respond? - This whole thing is a huge mess and there is the potential of it becoming a war between within and between Islam and the West. This is a defing moment for the world, for Islam and the West, and I for one, am not ready to accept that it should be like this.

Iran, Syria, Saudi, Pakistan, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Yemen, Somalia, Southern Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kazhstan and Turmenistan are potential targets of the Americans. All predominantly Muslim. And yet this is not an Anti-Islam crusade? OK, lets give them the benefit of the doubt they will never us. Let`s ask why is it that all these countries that are targets are Muslim countries? Why is that the populations of these countries qualify their condemnation of terrorism in US? Are they all drinking from a poisoned well? Why is it that Europeans were the first to counsel restraint and to warn that they will not be a part of any war on Islam? could it be that they considered this a real possibility?

lets not forget to keep an eye on them and lets make sure that we will still be able to exercise the right to say enough or no thanks. Look at their mesage to their own people, that the war on terrorism will take years, that it will take a lot of time, and expense and casualties. Already the Saudis and gulf are being strong armed to pay for the stationing (permanently?) of American troops and logistics. A change of government in Afghanistan is in the cards, Where next? Tajikistan? or perhaps the brutal regime in Uzbekistan? How will opposition movements respond? What if Americans are killed in large numbers in Saudi or Elsewhere, in response. And you can be sure there will be a response. The message of terrorism is that the days of arrogance are over, that if you push, you should expect to be pushed back. A crimal act of indiscriminate violence and murder? to be sure, justified? impossible. Will it change US policy? Of course it will. American response to the tragedy, the mass murder in NY and DC is for the time being very emotionally charged and in my opinion, terribly short sighted; really the beginning of the end of notions of forward basing and is the beginning of a retreat, but not before it destabilizes the region. it is too early to say who, if any will emerge as winners. in every way this is adventurism and a huge gamble. The first pictures of dead Muslims, at the hands of the Americans or first news of the killings of innocents, all the sympathy for the American will evaporate. How can anyone avoid the killing of innocents when the weapons include B52, B1 and Stealth Bombers - are Americn bombs, missiles or special forces going to distinguish between women and children and terrorists?

And in the US, what kinds of laws and procedures, designed to fight terrorism, how will these impact the lives of Muslim Americans? Will a contribution to a charity that builds hospitals in Palestine, be a terrorist act? Will contributions to institutions that deal with psychological damage of torture inflicted by the Israeli or any other American Strategic ally, be a criminal or terroprist act? Are you aware that legislation is being debated that will allow federal agencies to hold and individual indefinetly, without have been convicted? I will bet 1 Dollar, that there will be laws that apply or will be made to apply specifically to Arab and Muslim Americans.

These are the first days of the response and they are emotionally charged and yet experience shows that innocents will be caught up in this. Some innocents will chose not to be just victims.

The Americans now understand, that there are people willing to push back - and I am sad to say this, but we have not heard the last of terror attacks on American soil.

Zafar

First things first - Yes, we disagree, sometimes deeply - but we have built civility between us and I can say there is a level of trust between us and that our disagreements are not due to ill will - having said that, I will proceed to undo all of it - Just kidding:

Like I said to Narain - there is really too vast a distance between our understanding of the meaning of events in Captive Kashmir. I will again bring to your attention that there is no war in Azad Kashmir, there is no occupation army in Azad Kashmir, there are no routine custodial and extra-judicial killings in Azad Kashmir, Azad Kashmiris are not joining any ``liberation`` or ``Freedom struggle`` in Azad Kashmir because the need does not arise.

Independent Kashmir? Yes, if that is the call of the majority - but let`s not be creative, there is no significant support for this idea. Kashmir is an issue that relates to the original partition, not something new.

Would I favor a vote or negotiated settlement, for my money, it`s the vote. While a negotiated settlement would have allowed for Indian defence and economic consideration.

Please read Ayesha Jala`s book, I also recommended to Narain. If nothing else, it may give you an insight into why Pakistanis believe India is it`s mortal enemy, that India has not been able to reconcile itself to the creation of Pakistan. And how Pakistani society has been shaped by this perception. The whole point of offering Pakistan armed forces to the West was designed to get arms and training to be able to counter the Indian.

``Do or Die mission`` - Musharraf did not mean he will explode nuclear weapons upon India. He warned Vajpayee, Jaswant and Advani, that we will target and destroy the capablity. The number of warheads is still small, and the warheads have not been attached to the delivery system.

On the mining for ``larger numbers`` in India: Zafar, it is the hope and ambition of those who see the radicalization of Muslims in Kashmir, that there exists within Muslim India, a larger opportunity. Before you get bothered by the mere suggestion - consider. Out of the 120 million, if .01 percent can become radicalized, is this a small nucleus? Nucleus!! And are there not elements, non-Mulsim elements, that are already radicalized and do their best to bring about a confrontation between adherents of different religions in India?

Taliban

Yes, Taliban are predominantly Pustoon and Sunni. The forces that comprise the Northern alliance are include Shia supported by Iran and ethnic Tajiks supported by Russia and India. Taliban did not start out with the objective of being exclusive, yet ethnic, tribal and religious affiliations do play a part, especially since they are a very large majority. Afterall, has there been a Muslim Prime Minister of India? of Russia?, France? or a Sunni Prime minister or President or Shah of Iran, since the declaration of Shiism as a the official State religion (Iran is a nation of minorities, the largest being Turk, a majority of whom are Sunni), is Dilip a Hindu? Why was Yusuf Khan not acceptable? Has there ever been a Catholic President of US, other than Kennedy? Is the Pope other than Catholic?

Afghanistan and the coming conflagration:

“This business in Afghanistan has all the potential of becoming percieved as a war against Islam”

Hobbyty, only if Muslims perceive it as such, and that is in the hands of ordinary Muslims like you and me. I don’t see it that way. Do you?

Yes Zafar, I agree that to some extent it is in our hands and also I think that you are being too trusting of the motives of the American Administration.

What is about it Indians, that they deposit all faith and good in the hands of people thousands of miles away and deposit all evil in their own neighbors and peolpe with whom they have had relations for more than a millenia?

Only Muslim perception is at work here then? yes? Been on a flight recently? or a grocery store or anywhere else where you have identified yourself as Al-Talib? What do you think of those perceptions?

This thing is not only about arresting Mr. OBL and associates. Arresting OBL could have been done a while back, why didn`t the American do it then? I have suspicions that the American, like in Saudi Arabia, will not leave. Just too close to China. I also think that there will be a host of perhaps unintended consequences and a host of responses to this presence that far from bringing stability will only bring misery, poverty and unstability. If Pakistan cannot manage a restructured Taliban and Afghanistan will begin to fragment, will Pakistan step in to fill the void? Will Afghanistan be broken into little pieces? Will China act to safe guard it`s interests, Will Iran? Will Tajikistan be spared? And then what? How will India respond? - This whole thing is a huge mess and there is the potential of it becoming a war between within and between Islam and the West. This is a defing moment for the world, for Islam and the West, and I for one, am not ready to accept that it should be like this.

Iran, Syria, Saudi, Pakistan, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco, Yemen, Somalia, Southern Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kazhstan and Turmenistan are potential targets of the Americans. All predominantly Muslim. And yet this is not an Anti-Islam crusade? OK, lets give them the benefit of the doubt they will never us. Let`s ask why is it that all these countries that are targets are Muslim countries? Why is that the populations of these countries qualify their condemnation of terrorism in US? Are they all drinking from a poisoned well? Why is it that Europeans were the first to counsel restraint and to warn that they will not be a part of any war on Islam? could it be that they considered this a real possibility?

lets not forget to keep an eye on them and lets make sure that we will still be able to exercise the right to say enough or no thanks. Look at their mesage to their own people, that the war on terrorism will take years, that it will take a lot of time, and expense and casualties. Already the Saudis and gulf are being strong armed to pay for the stationing (permanently?) of American troops and logistics. A change of government in Afghanistan is in the cards, Where next? Tajikistan? or perhaps the brutal regime in Uzbekistan? How will opposition movements respond? What if Americans are killed in large numbers in Saudi or Elsewhere, in response. And you can be sure there will be a response. The message of terrorism is that the days of arrogance are over, that if you push, you should expect to be pushed back. A crimal act of indiscriminate violence and murder? to be sure, justified? impossible. Will it change US policy? Of course it will. American response to the tragedy, the mass murder in NY and DC is for the time being very emotionally charged and in my opinion, terribly short sighted; really the beginning of the end of notions of forward basing and is the beginning of a retreat, but not before it destabilizes the region. it is too early to say who, if any will emerge as winners. in every way this is adventurism and a huge gamble. The first pictures of dead Muslims, at the hands of the Americans or first news of the killings of innocents, all the sympathy for the American will evaporate. How can anyone avoid the killing of innocents when the weapons include B52, B1 and Stealth Bombers - are Americn bombs, missiles or special forces going to distinguish between women and children and terrorists?

And in the US, what kinds of laws and procedures, designed to fight terrorism, how will these impact the lives of Muslim Americans? Will a contribution to a charity that builds hospitals in Palestine, be a terrorist act? Will contributions to institutions that deal with psychological damage of torture inflicted by the Israeli or any other American Strategic ally, be a criminal or terroprist act? Are you aware that legislation is being debated that will allow federal agencies to hold and individual indefinetly, without have been convicted? I will bet 1 Dollar, that there will be laws that apply or will be made to apply specifically to Arab and Muslim Americans.

These are the first days of the response and they are emotionally charged and yet experience shows that innocents will be caught up in this. Some innocents will chose not to be just victims.

The Americans now understand, that there are people willing to push back - and I am sad to say this, but we have not heard the last of terror attacks on American soil.

Kashganistan

``Right!! But there is not a freedom struggle in Azad Kashmir, No 700,000 occupation army. No custodial Killings. No extra-judicial killings - Narain – this kind of obfuscation that is not constructive``

That is hobbyty. It is an interesting thought. May be india could have taken the initiative of traing the jihadists and sending them to POK. Pakistan did the same in afghanistan, my neighbour was telling that as far as the afghans are concerned they view taliban as mostly pakistanis. It could have been turned into a intr muslim conflict as pakistan has done in afghanistan.

no..no..it could not have happened, the coordinated attack on terrorism and iraquisation of pakistan would not have happened.

Regarding Indians being roaches, bear in mind that cockroaches are the only life expected to survive a nuclear attack!

narain #480:

``It also seems strange that if Pakistan actually faced such existential threat from India, it would dilebrately go out of its way to court more hostility from that quarter! Kashmir 1965, Punjab 1980-90, Kashmir 1990 onwards, Kargil 1999. These actions are all the actions of an aggressor who knows that he will not be hit back, not a country which fears for its existense.``

Well said.