Aisha Sarwari September 15, 2001
#1 Posted by Zahra on September 16, 2001 12:03:35 am
I have a very hard time understanding why the hell would a certain group in the clergy in Pakistan even consider Talibaans as ``saints/heroes`` in anyway or shape? Have not they seen the outcome of that nation? It`s ended in:
- Beggary
- Silent Prostitution
- Poverty
- Distraught Masses
- Drugeees(Afeemis)
- Manic Disorder
- Retarded Country
- Chaos
Why? I cannot comprehend that. It`s a damn irony that ``a certain group in clergy`` cannot comprehend the difference one can make: positively and negatively. Why would they like to lead Pakistan into a pathetic state like Afghanistan? Are they even the well-wishers of Pakistan?
If they want to lead Pakistan into that ``disaster`` then for Pakistan`s own solidarity and life, these elements need to be sent to some black hole for good. We do not need such ``retarded`` clergy who cannot distinguish between good and bad. Our belief does not need the support of such bufoons who are ready to sink the pyari and masoom boat of our beloved Pakistan into a ditch of chaos. Which religion asks its followers to lead the masses into chaos and let them die sniffing afeem? This is simply disgusting!
Yes, Pakistan is ``Caught In Between`` - But probably that`s an opportunity in disguise to get rid of the cancer/leeches. Let`s hope for the best; and pray.
- Beggary
- Silent Prostitution
- Poverty
- Distraught Masses
- Drugeees(Afeemis)
- Manic Disorder
- Retarded Country
- Chaos
Why? I cannot comprehend that. It`s a damn irony that ``a certain group in clergy`` cannot comprehend the difference one can make: positively and negatively. Why would they like to lead Pakistan into a pathetic state like Afghanistan? Are they even the well-wishers of Pakistan?
If they want to lead Pakistan into that ``disaster`` then for Pakistan`s own solidarity and life, these elements need to be sent to some black hole for good. We do not need such ``retarded`` clergy who cannot distinguish between good and bad. Our belief does not need the support of such bufoons who are ready to sink the pyari and masoom boat of our beloved Pakistan into a ditch of chaos. Which religion asks its followers to lead the masses into chaos and let them die sniffing afeem? This is simply disgusting!
Yes, Pakistan is ``Caught In Between`` - But probably that`s an opportunity in disguise to get rid of the cancer/leeches. Let`s hope for the best; and pray.
#2 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on September 16, 2001 12:42:01 am
Aisha AOA,
I could not have said it better!
Where else did you send this to?
I am waiting for the Chinese response at the UN.
You wrote:
``So, the people who did this are fighting a losing battle, they will never win. Whoever they are, they may have put an end to the breath of many but they can never put an end to faith before the murder.``
Very well expressed thoughts. It was large scale murder.
BUT AMERCA NEEDS TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY ARE NOT RUSHING THINGS AND ARE GOING AFTER THE RIGHT PEOPLE!
(America has messed up royally in Afghanistan twice before).
Ras
#3 Posted by sadna on September 16, 2001 2:29:52 am
Thats right, Babri Masjid and India are the burdensome crosses Pakistan has to bear, like its old friend US has to bear WTC and Bin Laden. Afghans are unfortunately inspired by India, so they are trying out pure Islam.
Mahatma Gandhi, the so-called democratic nation India, the demolition of Babri Masjid, chicanery of US and Russia. The Pakistani nation, the Pakistani Army, the Pakistani public and Pakistani Islam, all these heavenly and innocent entities are unable to realise their true destiny because they beset with the above mentioned evils.
The saintly Pakistani nation, in addition is suffering, (though currently ruled over by its own Army) under the stranglehold of the Indian Army in Kashmir.
bottomline: East or West, US or Pakistan, WTC or Babri, who is responsible? India, Indians and Gandhi are responsible. Bravo. This must warm the cockles of the true patriots here, they can sleep easy now, and leave it for tomorrow to convince the US that they are looking at the wrong border and wrong nation to wipe out.
Try fax`ing this to them, it may be faster. Need a number? Turn to CNN and look at the ticker at the bottom.
btw, I asked a simple question some boards ago and didnot get an answer: The manly Jinnah and his heroic Muslim League created a new nation which the fundamentalist Deobandis and the fundamentalist Gandhi opposed. If that was the case, what was the post-Independence(1947-2001) record of the Muslim League in Pakistan wrt religion, legislation related to religion and its record of upholding secularism in Pakistan?
Mahatma Gandhi, the so-called democratic nation India, the demolition of Babri Masjid, chicanery of US and Russia. The Pakistani nation, the Pakistani Army, the Pakistani public and Pakistani Islam, all these heavenly and innocent entities are unable to realise their true destiny because they beset with the above mentioned evils.
The saintly Pakistani nation, in addition is suffering, (though currently ruled over by its own Army) under the stranglehold of the Indian Army in Kashmir.
bottomline: East or West, US or Pakistan, WTC or Babri, who is responsible? India, Indians and Gandhi are responsible. Bravo. This must warm the cockles of the true patriots here, they can sleep easy now, and leave it for tomorrow to convince the US that they are looking at the wrong border and wrong nation to wipe out.
Try fax`ing this to them, it may be faster. Need a number? Turn to CNN and look at the ticker at the bottom.
btw, I asked a simple question some boards ago and didnot get an answer: The manly Jinnah and his heroic Muslim League created a new nation which the fundamentalist Deobandis and the fundamentalist Gandhi opposed. If that was the case, what was the post-Independence(1947-2001) record of the Muslim League in Pakistan wrt religion, legislation related to religion and its record of upholding secularism in Pakistan?
#4 Posted by ferozk on September 16, 2001 3:13:48 am
Interesting article, Aisha.
Pakistan is not caught between anything and if it was, it was due to its own choice. Pakistan should realize, as the corps commanders did, that the parameters of the international diplomacy have changed and what is past will remain just that - a past.
Now, in the new emerging scenrio of international politics, which is a blend of Realpolitik and unilateralism, nations have to decide how best to preserve and promote their future interests regardless of ideological or religious nuances. Pakistan`s assent to the American requests/demands was made on the sole criteria of what ensures Pakistan`s existence as a nation state. Period. Pakistan has adopted a ``re-think`` in its foreign policy, which is predicated on the premise that Islamabad will adopt those policies, which serve the interests of Pakistan.
As to Kashmir and the usual litany of complaints against India, Pakistan`s only concern in acting on the American ``recommendations`` was to prevent a distinct shift in the American policy, vis a vis South Asia, in India`s favor if Pakistan was not forth coming.
This in itself suggests that Pakistan is likely to follow a secularist national interest oriented policies within the political gambit of this crisis. For the first time, a major Pakistani foreign policy decision was not motivated by ideological (cold war) rationale or a religious obligation, but on principle of how to secure the interests of Pakistan in a zero sum regional environment.
Pakistani foreign policy has undergone a paradigm change and its has assumed a realistic approach towards the emerging regional and international consequences of September 11, 2001.
Ciao
Pakistan is not caught between anything and if it was, it was due to its own choice. Pakistan should realize, as the corps commanders did, that the parameters of the international diplomacy have changed and what is past will remain just that - a past.
Now, in the new emerging scenrio of international politics, which is a blend of Realpolitik and unilateralism, nations have to decide how best to preserve and promote their future interests regardless of ideological or religious nuances. Pakistan`s assent to the American requests/demands was made on the sole criteria of what ensures Pakistan`s existence as a nation state. Period. Pakistan has adopted a ``re-think`` in its foreign policy, which is predicated on the premise that Islamabad will adopt those policies, which serve the interests of Pakistan.
As to Kashmir and the usual litany of complaints against India, Pakistan`s only concern in acting on the American ``recommendations`` was to prevent a distinct shift in the American policy, vis a vis South Asia, in India`s favor if Pakistan was not forth coming.
This in itself suggests that Pakistan is likely to follow a secularist national interest oriented policies within the political gambit of this crisis. For the first time, a major Pakistani foreign policy decision was not motivated by ideological (cold war) rationale or a religious obligation, but on principle of how to secure the interests of Pakistan in a zero sum regional environment.
Pakistani foreign policy has undergone a paradigm change and its has assumed a realistic approach towards the emerging regional and international consequences of September 11, 2001.
Ciao
#5 Posted by ferozk on September 16, 2001 4:09:38 am
To all Chowkwallahs, please read the article listed.
www.janes.com/regional_news/americas/news/jdw/jdw010914_1_n.shtml
Ciao
www.janes.com/regional_news/americas/news/jdw/jdw010914_1_n.shtml
Ciao
#6 Posted by tvarad on September 16, 2001 5:57:10 am
Looks like another article talking about the ``greatness`` of Pakistan couched in the long standing Pakistani hatred for India and anything Indian.
Nothing is going to change in Pakistan until it gets over it`s constitutional definition: ``Pakistan is not India``. Hatred for another country is just not enough to build a country.
Nothing is going to change in Pakistan until it gets over it`s constitutional definition: ``Pakistan is not India``. Hatred for another country is just not enough to build a country.
#7 Posted by rsaxena on September 16, 2001 5:57:10 am
Another garbage article from a dirty little hypocrite who screams about being nothing more than a Pakistani patriot but who can never write without references to India. More proof of her inferiority complex.
If Pakistan is caught in a rat hole, what does it have to do with India? If the US makes Pakistan bend over time and again, what does it have to with India? If the world believes Pakistan houses and is buddies with terrorists, what does it have to do with India? If Pakistan is not a secular country, what does it have to do with India? If Pakistan can`t sustain a democracy, what does it have to with India? NOTHING. So why does the garbage you have written have constant references to India?
Oh, and one more thing, please take a grammar class while you`re at presitigious San Jose State.
If Pakistan is caught in a rat hole, what does it have to do with India? If the US makes Pakistan bend over time and again, what does it have to with India? If the world believes Pakistan houses and is buddies with terrorists, what does it have to do with India? If Pakistan is not a secular country, what does it have to do with India? If Pakistan can`t sustain a democracy, what does it have to with India? NOTHING. So why does the garbage you have written have constant references to India?
Oh, and one more thing, please take a grammar class while you`re at presitigious San Jose State.
#8 Posted by Gowardhan on September 16, 2001 5:57:10 am
Excellent. Subanallah. Keep writing and thinking like this so my dream of a destroyed Pakistan becomes a reality soon.
#10 Posted by mo2000 on September 16, 2001 5:57:10 am
I think Pakistan can utilize this sudden bonus to advance pakistan. We should help for destruction of fanatics of Afghanistan. We should ask billions of dollars from usa to carryout needed support operations for USA and Western countries. This will help to stabilize the country going through financial difficulties. Also if Afghan extremists are defeated, Afghan king can agree to Durand line. The treaty expired in 1993 and Taliban has steadifastly refuse to respect Durand line. Taliban get into troubles due to their arrogance. If Durand line is not accepted Afghans will always try to get area west of Sindhu river. This good time to make sure after installation of new Afghan govt. they agree to Durand line. And this message will have good stabilizing effect specially in NWFP. It is curious how Pakistan Army ruler suddenly became darling of USA . (Zia was such lucky general, it appears this general is lucky). It is incidently true friends of Pakistan are Allah, Arabs and America.
We have no choice, angree USA can choke us financially. So better take advantage of situation as much as possible. Make the hay till sun shines.
But inside we all Pakistanis burn. It feels like we are forced to act against Muslim Brother country due to usa. I think if elections are taken over this matter most will like to be neutral. We do not want to enjoy the fruits of American actions . Its like getting raped and victim asked to enjoy it as there is no recourse
We have no choice, angree USA can choke us financially. So better take advantage of situation as much as possible. Make the hay till sun shines.
But inside we all Pakistanis burn. It feels like we are forced to act against Muslim Brother country due to usa. I think if elections are taken over this matter most will like to be neutral. We do not want to enjoy the fruits of American actions . Its like getting raped and victim asked to enjoy it as there is no recourse
#11 Posted by Gowardhan on September 16, 2001 5:57:10 am
Pakistani Joke of the year - Islam doesn`t permit to declare jihad in their private capacities.
If it doesnt, then these jihadi terrorists are not muslims. Why sing and dance happily with them?
Pakistani is anti Islam.
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/sep2001-daily/16-09-2001/main/main12.htm
A fateful and necessary retreat
Analysis
By Imtiaz Alam
LAHORE: The choice was too difficult to make, yet it has been painfully and reluctantly made in the supreme interest of national survival by the guardians of our frontiers. The terrorists and their Taliban-backers, who had in fact wanted Pakistan to share their self-suicidal mission, had left no option for Pakistan except to join the ever-largest world coalition of mightiest forces against terrorism. Where do the people of Pakistan stand: with the Taliban/Osama, who have finally vowed to go on war against us and brought us close to the fate of Iraq? Or with Pakistan that has averted a stark possibility of being wiped out by the biggest bully, the US, this time for a good cause against the crimes against humanity that it has been frequently committing?
The corps commanders, the National Security Council and the cabinet have decided with consensus to fully support the international community in its fight against terrorism that Islam doesn`t permit and was wrongly accused of by the racist-bashers of the Muslims. Realizing the gravest threat to Pakistan`s security, President General Musharraf, an unquestionable fighting patriot that he is, took the timely decision to avert an irreparable catastrophe and outflanked foxy Indian leadership that have shown the readiness to provide Americans all military facilities to grind its own axe against Pakistan and the hapless Kashmiris. A two-front situation has been averted and this is what sensible Pakistani must understand, despite their understandable indignation against the injustices being done by the mightiest against the Muslims from Palestine to Chechnya and Kashmir.
In a reversal of a very flawed pro-Taliban policy, Pakistan has fatefully retreated from falling into the ditch with an untrustworthy and foolish ally, who was in fact trying to, and will try, to destabilize and Talibanize a moderate Muslim nation. Had the decision not been taken to go along with the international community- from the US to Europe, Russia to Central Asia and China to the Arab League, including OIC- ,Pakistan would not have been left with time to repent, when even nuclear options were also being considered in the US. On balance, it is a most sensible decision not to take the wrath of international community over facing a thoughtless domestic backlash of an extremist clergy, that doesn`t believe in our nation-hood but a demagogic pan-Islamist solidarity counterpoised to the umma represented by the OIC, however week it may be.
By continuously refusing to listen to the good advice of their benefactor, Pakistan, the Taliban turned out to be a very amateurish bunch of arrogant adventurists who have been left alone to the mercy of their own madness. Why should have Pakistan fatally suffered, and also lost its nuclear deterrence, for the follies of Osama-bin-Laden, a former CIA contact and accused by Colonel Gaddafi as an ``American agent``, and other adventurists and their defenders, Taliban? Taliban never listened to us: did not let gas/oil pipelines plans go off the board; not restrained from destroying Bamyan Budhas and address some of the genuine international concerns, such as on Osama; they did not even respect or recognize the Durand Line and hand over the terrorists wanted by us.
They tried their best to blackmail us through their militant outfits here and used the senior Deobandi clerics, who for their political expediency chose expansion of their constituency over giving scholarly advice to their pupils not to defame Islam. The kind of barbaric Islam they were enforcing in fact provided an opportunity to the Zionists and anti-Muslim racists in the name of ``clash of civilizations`` to accuse the faith of ``Rab-ul-alameen`` and ``Rehmat-ulil-alameen``. Not only that international community got closer to the Indian view on ``terrorism`` and Kashmir, due to Taliban/Osama and their associates in Pakistan, but also the Muslim countries, Central Asians, Iranians and others.
Now, after the US has fixed the responsibility on alleged perpetrator Osama and his harbors, Taliban, for the black Tuesday`s mayhem, its a matter of few days, if not hours, that the war on the perpetrators of terrorism and their harbors will be declared, not only by the US, but also by the whole international community. Pakistan had to follow the binding resolutions of UN Security Council resolutions. Or should Pakistan have defied? Only bad-wishers, short-sighted adventurers and enemies of Pakistan would have liked to.
What seems to be quite obvious now is that the Taliban, after having been left in the cold, will be routed and all sanctuaries of terrorists will be smashed. Kabul and Kandhar may even fall under the psychological pressure, if not by the carpet bombing, and the Northern Alliance will be let walk into the capital to in fact facilitate the return of King Zahir Shah to implement the UN plan for a broad coalition-government through the Loye Jirga or grand assembly. Unfortunately, it will be yet another nightmarish period for the poor Afghans who deserve to be treated with respect and salvaged from death and hunger.
This is not for the first time that Pakistan has got engaged in the Afghan imbroglio. It did get involved with the America`s Afghan War against the Soviets and their puppets. All these Mujahideen leaders and clerics, who have now turned their guns against America, were on its pay-role, whereas Pakistan got nothing but religious extremism, sectarianism, terrorism, klashnikov culture, heroin addiction and a bad guy image in return from the US`s ``attack and run`` policy. This time also the US, despite substituting Soviets, may go back to its safe havens after completing its revengeful mission and leave us alone to face the dangerous debris of extremism and yet another wave of Afghan refugees, this time including Taliban who will find many a sanctuaries among their school-mates to further destabilize Pakistan from within.
Indeed we were left with no option but to cooperate with the US. But, have we negotiated with the US a reasonable quid pro quo for our support and all necessary means and support to meet the coming fallout? Have we asked for the full compensation of costs that we would be forced to pay for such an exercise that can threaten both economy and society? Similarly, how will the US and its western allies treat us vis-a-vis India? Will we be secured on our eastern front and will the Kashmiris right to self-determination be respected, in exchange for sacrificing the security of our western front? Will the sanctions be lifted and we will be provided with crucial fiscal space to overcome our economic vulnerability? And, lastly, will our limited nuclear deterrence be treated at par with India?
If we have got the affirmative answer from the US, even on some of the major issues if not all, then it can be accepted as a best deal out of a worse situation when we were being asked on what side of the divide we were. A sudden reversal of our misguided Afghan policy will certainly cause resentment among the broadest sections of our people since they see US as the enemy of the Muslims, and not for all wrong reasons. If our clergy has any love for Pakistan, it should take it as ``Sulah-i-Hodaibya``. Had we been equal to the US or its allies, matter would have been different and we would not have allowed the Taliban to go berserk in the first place. Similarly, our mainstream democratic opposition must rally behind the regime in this crucial hour, and to thwart the designs of religious extremists. And General Musharraf should not be dithering in accommodating their genuine constitutional demands.
In providing our ``unstinting cooperation`` in the fight against terrorism, we must be very careful how far we will be going and what should we be getting and not losing in the end. General Musharraf has rightly decided not to go beyond Pakistan`s frontier in the crusade against terrorism. But he must secure his flanks, take the politicians into confidence while setting a right course for Pakistan, in line with the Quaid`s dream and away from the deviation of adventurists whom Islam doesn`t permit to declare jihad in their private capacities. The new course of a moderate Pakistan will require the support of the people who should not be misled by those who want to expand their narrow constituencies at the cost of Pakistan. God save Pakistan and bless the umma with necessary strength and wisdom to surmount its difficulties.
If it doesnt, then these jihadi terrorists are not muslims. Why sing and dance happily with them?
Pakistani is anti Islam.
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/sep2001-daily/16-09-2001/main/main12.htm
A fateful and necessary retreat
Analysis
By Imtiaz Alam
LAHORE: The choice was too difficult to make, yet it has been painfully and reluctantly made in the supreme interest of national survival by the guardians of our frontiers. The terrorists and their Taliban-backers, who had in fact wanted Pakistan to share their self-suicidal mission, had left no option for Pakistan except to join the ever-largest world coalition of mightiest forces against terrorism. Where do the people of Pakistan stand: with the Taliban/Osama, who have finally vowed to go on war against us and brought us close to the fate of Iraq? Or with Pakistan that has averted a stark possibility of being wiped out by the biggest bully, the US, this time for a good cause against the crimes against humanity that it has been frequently committing?
The corps commanders, the National Security Council and the cabinet have decided with consensus to fully support the international community in its fight against terrorism that Islam doesn`t permit and was wrongly accused of by the racist-bashers of the Muslims. Realizing the gravest threat to Pakistan`s security, President General Musharraf, an unquestionable fighting patriot that he is, took the timely decision to avert an irreparable catastrophe and outflanked foxy Indian leadership that have shown the readiness to provide Americans all military facilities to grind its own axe against Pakistan and the hapless Kashmiris. A two-front situation has been averted and this is what sensible Pakistani must understand, despite their understandable indignation against the injustices being done by the mightiest against the Muslims from Palestine to Chechnya and Kashmir.
In a reversal of a very flawed pro-Taliban policy, Pakistan has fatefully retreated from falling into the ditch with an untrustworthy and foolish ally, who was in fact trying to, and will try, to destabilize and Talibanize a moderate Muslim nation. Had the decision not been taken to go along with the international community- from the US to Europe, Russia to Central Asia and China to the Arab League, including OIC- ,Pakistan would not have been left with time to repent, when even nuclear options were also being considered in the US. On balance, it is a most sensible decision not to take the wrath of international community over facing a thoughtless domestic backlash of an extremist clergy, that doesn`t believe in our nation-hood but a demagogic pan-Islamist solidarity counterpoised to the umma represented by the OIC, however week it may be.
By continuously refusing to listen to the good advice of their benefactor, Pakistan, the Taliban turned out to be a very amateurish bunch of arrogant adventurists who have been left alone to the mercy of their own madness. Why should have Pakistan fatally suffered, and also lost its nuclear deterrence, for the follies of Osama-bin-Laden, a former CIA contact and accused by Colonel Gaddafi as an ``American agent``, and other adventurists and their defenders, Taliban? Taliban never listened to us: did not let gas/oil pipelines plans go off the board; not restrained from destroying Bamyan Budhas and address some of the genuine international concerns, such as on Osama; they did not even respect or recognize the Durand Line and hand over the terrorists wanted by us.
They tried their best to blackmail us through their militant outfits here and used the senior Deobandi clerics, who for their political expediency chose expansion of their constituency over giving scholarly advice to their pupils not to defame Islam. The kind of barbaric Islam they were enforcing in fact provided an opportunity to the Zionists and anti-Muslim racists in the name of ``clash of civilizations`` to accuse the faith of ``Rab-ul-alameen`` and ``Rehmat-ulil-alameen``. Not only that international community got closer to the Indian view on ``terrorism`` and Kashmir, due to Taliban/Osama and their associates in Pakistan, but also the Muslim countries, Central Asians, Iranians and others.
Now, after the US has fixed the responsibility on alleged perpetrator Osama and his harbors, Taliban, for the black Tuesday`s mayhem, its a matter of few days, if not hours, that the war on the perpetrators of terrorism and their harbors will be declared, not only by the US, but also by the whole international community. Pakistan had to follow the binding resolutions of UN Security Council resolutions. Or should Pakistan have defied? Only bad-wishers, short-sighted adventurers and enemies of Pakistan would have liked to.
What seems to be quite obvious now is that the Taliban, after having been left in the cold, will be routed and all sanctuaries of terrorists will be smashed. Kabul and Kandhar may even fall under the psychological pressure, if not by the carpet bombing, and the Northern Alliance will be let walk into the capital to in fact facilitate the return of King Zahir Shah to implement the UN plan for a broad coalition-government through the Loye Jirga or grand assembly. Unfortunately, it will be yet another nightmarish period for the poor Afghans who deserve to be treated with respect and salvaged from death and hunger.
This is not for the first time that Pakistan has got engaged in the Afghan imbroglio. It did get involved with the America`s Afghan War against the Soviets and their puppets. All these Mujahideen leaders and clerics, who have now turned their guns against America, were on its pay-role, whereas Pakistan got nothing but religious extremism, sectarianism, terrorism, klashnikov culture, heroin addiction and a bad guy image in return from the US`s ``attack and run`` policy. This time also the US, despite substituting Soviets, may go back to its safe havens after completing its revengeful mission and leave us alone to face the dangerous debris of extremism and yet another wave of Afghan refugees, this time including Taliban who will find many a sanctuaries among their school-mates to further destabilize Pakistan from within.
Indeed we were left with no option but to cooperate with the US. But, have we negotiated with the US a reasonable quid pro quo for our support and all necessary means and support to meet the coming fallout? Have we asked for the full compensation of costs that we would be forced to pay for such an exercise that can threaten both economy and society? Similarly, how will the US and its western allies treat us vis-a-vis India? Will we be secured on our eastern front and will the Kashmiris right to self-determination be respected, in exchange for sacrificing the security of our western front? Will the sanctions be lifted and we will be provided with crucial fiscal space to overcome our economic vulnerability? And, lastly, will our limited nuclear deterrence be treated at par with India?
If we have got the affirmative answer from the US, even on some of the major issues if not all, then it can be accepted as a best deal out of a worse situation when we were being asked on what side of the divide we were. A sudden reversal of our misguided Afghan policy will certainly cause resentment among the broadest sections of our people since they see US as the enemy of the Muslims, and not for all wrong reasons. If our clergy has any love for Pakistan, it should take it as ``Sulah-i-Hodaibya``. Had we been equal to the US or its allies, matter would have been different and we would not have allowed the Taliban to go berserk in the first place. Similarly, our mainstream democratic opposition must rally behind the regime in this crucial hour, and to thwart the designs of religious extremists. And General Musharraf should not be dithering in accommodating their genuine constitutional demands.
In providing our ``unstinting cooperation`` in the fight against terrorism, we must be very careful how far we will be going and what should we be getting and not losing in the end. General Musharraf has rightly decided not to go beyond Pakistan`s frontier in the crusade against terrorism. But he must secure his flanks, take the politicians into confidence while setting a right course for Pakistan, in line with the Quaid`s dream and away from the deviation of adventurists whom Islam doesn`t permit to declare jihad in their private capacities. The new course of a moderate Pakistan will require the support of the people who should not be misled by those who want to expand their narrow constituencies at the cost of Pakistan. God save Pakistan and bless the umma with necessary strength and wisdom to surmount its difficulties.
#12 Posted by fozia on September 16, 2001 5:57:10 am
Some general comments on Pakistan being caught in between.
The Americans are understandably angry and justified in seeking retribution for this horrible attack. However I am skeptical as to how much solid ``proof`` there is in tying Osama Bin Laden to these hijackings. The US intelligence utterly failed to forsee this, yet within 6 hours of the attack, the media was announcing that they (the US intelligence) had strong evidence to connect this to Bin Laden?
With this ``evidence`` in hand, the Americans are demanding that the Afghanis extradite Osama Bin Laden. I read on BBC that a 72 hour deadline was given as of Wednesday, which would mean that this expires today on Saturday. Afterwhich all bets are off as to when the assumed invasion of Afganistan could take place.
Pakistan is unfortunatly getting caught in the middle, both geographically and being one of the three nations that does have diplomatic ties to the Taliban. It`s a no win situation for Pakistan:
1) if they don`t comply with the US demands of using their airspace then they are considered a country which harbours enemies of America and will be bombed.
2) If they do comply then this will result in the wrath of the Taliban plus the wrath of the numerous Taliban sympathizers within Pakistan. These people are not trivial in number. This has the potential to turn into a civil war.
The latest news is that Pakistan has agreed to allow the US to use their airspace
The consequences of this will play out in the upcoming days and weeks.
All one can do is hope and pray for the innocent civilians of every nation involved.
Regards,
Fozia
The Americans are understandably angry and justified in seeking retribution for this horrible attack. However I am skeptical as to how much solid ``proof`` there is in tying Osama Bin Laden to these hijackings. The US intelligence utterly failed to forsee this, yet within 6 hours of the attack, the media was announcing that they (the US intelligence) had strong evidence to connect this to Bin Laden?
With this ``evidence`` in hand, the Americans are demanding that the Afghanis extradite Osama Bin Laden. I read on BBC that a 72 hour deadline was given as of Wednesday, which would mean that this expires today on Saturday. Afterwhich all bets are off as to when the assumed invasion of Afganistan could take place.
Pakistan is unfortunatly getting caught in the middle, both geographically and being one of the three nations that does have diplomatic ties to the Taliban. It`s a no win situation for Pakistan:
1) if they don`t comply with the US demands of using their airspace then they are considered a country which harbours enemies of America and will be bombed.
2) If they do comply then this will result in the wrath of the Taliban plus the wrath of the numerous Taliban sympathizers within Pakistan. These people are not trivial in number. This has the potential to turn into a civil war.
The latest news is that Pakistan has agreed to allow the US to use their airspace
The consequences of this will play out in the upcoming days and weeks.
All one can do is hope and pray for the innocent civilians of every nation involved.
Regards,
Fozia
#13 Posted by curious on September 16, 2001 5:57:10 am
This may not be an very eloquent piece of work, but at least it is honest. For years Pakistanis have had to pay for our government`s interference in Afghanistan. Neither our economy nor our society has escaped unscathed. And after all our support, the Afghan government is threatening us with invasion if we co-operate with USA. My first reaction was..How dare they!! But then I realized that we the people of Pakistan, with our prejudices and hatred, our greed and selfishness , have made it so easy for every Tom, dick and Harry to threaten us. Our own weaknesses and flaws are being used as a weapon against us. This is not the first time Afghan regime has threatened us. I remember that in early 90’s we were going to close down our borders with Afghanistan because of the huge influx of refugees due to the civil war. I remember that the Afghan government has threatened us with terrorism then. (Please correct me if I am wrong).
What my point is, that it’s about time we Pakistanis get our act together. For once we need to forget who belongs to Jamat-e-Islami or to PPP or numerous other political and religious parties. For once just let us be Pakistanis. If Pakistan doesn’t exist then neither would our right to practice our individual religious or political ideologies.
I also wish that the Ambassador of Pakistan had spoken up in the past few days to answer to Americans’ misconception about us...
What my point is, that it’s about time we Pakistanis get our act together. For once we need to forget who belongs to Jamat-e-Islami or to PPP or numerous other political and religious parties. For once just let us be Pakistanis. If Pakistan doesn’t exist then neither would our right to practice our individual religious or political ideologies.
I also wish that the Ambassador of Pakistan had spoken up in the past few days to answer to Americans’ misconception about us...
#14 Posted by Molko on September 16, 2001 5:57:10 am
Religion`s misguided missiles
Promise a young man that death is not the end and he will willingly cause disaster
Richard Dawkins
A guided missile corrects its trajectory as it flies, homing in, say, on the heat of a jet plane`s exhaust. A great improvement on a simple ballistic shell, it still cannot discriminate particular targets. It could not zero in on a designated New York skyscraper if launched from as far away as Boston.
That is precisely what a modern ``smart missile`` can do. Computer miniaturisation has advanced to the point where one of today`s smart missiles could be programmed with an image of the Manhattan skyline together with instructions to home in on the north tower of the World Trade Centre. Smart missiles of this sophistication are possessed by the United States, as we learned in the Gulf war, but they are economically beyond ordinary terrorists and scientifically beyond theocratic governments. Might there be a cheaper and easier alternative?
In the second world war, before electronics became cheap and miniature, the psychologist BF Skinner did some research on pigeon-guided missiles. The pigeon was to sit in a tiny cockpit, having previously been trained to peck keys in such a way as to keep a designated target in the centre of a screen. In the missile, the target would be for real.
The principle worked, although it was never put into practice by the US authorities. Even factoring in the costs of training them, pigeons are cheaper and lighter than computers of comparable effectiveness. Their feats in Skinner`s boxes suggest that a pigeon, after a regimen of training with colour slides, really could guide a missile to a distinctive landmark at the southern end of Manhattan island. The pigeon has no idea that it is guiding a missile. It just keeps on pecking at those two tall rectangles on the screen, from time to time a food reward drops out of the dispenser, and this goes on until... oblivion.
Pigeons may be cheap and disposable as on-board guidance systems, but there`s no escaping the cost of the missile itself. And no such missile large enough to do much damage could penetrate US air space without being intercepted. What is needed is a missile that is not recognised for what it is until too late. Something like a large civilian airliner, carrying the innocuous markings of a well-known carrier and a great deal of fuel. That`s the easy part. But how do you smuggle on board the necessary guidance system? You can hardly expect the pilots to surrender the left-hand seat to a pigeon or a computer.
How about using humans as on-board guidance systems, instead of pigeons? Humans are at least as numerous as pigeons, their brains are not significantly costlier than pigeon brains, and for many tasks they are actually superior. Humans have a proven track record in taking over planes by the use of threats, which work because the legitimate pilots value their own lives and those of their passengers.
The natural assumption that the hijacker ultimately values his own life too, and will act rationally to preserve it, leads air crews and ground staff to make calculated decisions that would not work with guidance modules lacking a sense of self-preservation. If your plane is being hijacked by an armed man who, though prepared to take risks, presumably wants to go on living, there is room for bargaining. A rational pilot complies with the hijacker`s wishes, gets the plane down on the ground, has hot food sent in for the passengers and leaves the negotiations to people trained to negotiate.
The problem with the human guidance system is precisely this. Unlike the pigeon version, it knows that a successful mission culminates in its own destruction. Could we develop a biological guidance system with the compliance and dispensability of a pigeon but with a man`s resourcefulness and ability to infiltrate plausibly? What we need, in a nutshell, is a human who doesn`t mind being blown up. He`d make the perfect on-board guidance system. But suicide enthusiasts are hard to find. Even terminal cancer patients might lose their nerve when the crash was actually looming.
Could we get some otherwise normal humans and somehow persuade them that they are not going to die as a consequence of flying a plane smack into a skyscraper? If only! Nobody is that stupid, but how about this - it`s a long shot, but it just might work. Given that they are certainly going to die, couldn`t we sucker them into believing that they are going to come to life again afterwards? Don`t be daft! No, listen, it might work. Offer them a fast track to a Great Oasis in the Sky, cooled by everlasting fountains. Harps and wings wouldn`t appeal to the sort of young men we need, so tell them there`s a special martyr`s reward of 72 virgin brides, guaranteed eager and exclusive.
Would they fall for it? Yes, testosterone-sodden young men too unattractive to get a woman in this world might be desperate enough to go for 72 private virgins in the next.
It`s a tall story, but worth a try. You`d have to get them young, though. Feed them a complete and self-consistent background mythology to make the big lie sound plausible when it comes. Give them a holy book and make them learn it by heart. Do you know, I really think it might work. As luck would have it, we have just the thing to hand: a ready-made system of mind-control which has been honed over centuries, handed down through generations. Millions of people have been brought up in it. It is called religion and, for reasons which one day we may understand, most people fall for it (nowhere more so than America itself, though the irony passes unnoticed). Now all we need is to round up a few of these faith-heads and give them flying lessons.
Facetious? Trivialising an unspeakable evil? That is the exact opposite of my intention, which is deadly serious and prompted by deep grief and fierce anger. I am trying to call attention to the elephant in the room that everybody is too polite - or too devout - to notice: religion, and specifically the devaluing effect that religion has on human life. I don`t mean devaluing the life of others (though it can do that too), but devaluing one`s own life. Religion teaches the dangerous nonsense that death is not the end.
If death is final, a rational agent can be expected to value his life highly and be reluctant to risk it. This makes the world a safer place, just as a plane is safer if its hijacker wants to survive. At the other extreme, if a significant number of people convince themselves, or are convinced by their priests, that a martyr`s death is equivalent to pressing the hyperspace button and zooming through a wormhole to another universe, it can make the world a very dangerous place. Especially if they also believe that that other universe is a paradisical escape from the tribulations of the real world. Top it off with sincerely believed, if ludicrous and degrading to women, sexual promises, and is it any wonder that naive and frustrated young men are clamouring to be selected for suicide missions?
There is no doubt that the afterlife-obsessed suicidal brain really is a weapon of immense power and danger. It is comparable to a smart missile, and its guidance system is in many respects superior to the most sophisticated electronic brain that money can buy. Yet to a cynical government, organisation, or priesthood, it is very very cheap.
Our leaders have described the recent atrocity with the customary cliche: mindless cowardice. ``Mindless`` may be a suitable word for the vandalising of a telephone box. It is not helpful for understanding what hit New York on September 11. Those people were not mindless and they were certainly not cowards. On the contrary, they had sufficiently effective minds braced with an insane courage, and it would pay us mightily to understand where that courage came from.
It came from religion. Religion is also, of course, the underlying source of the divisiveness in the Middle East which motivated the use of this deadly weapon in the first place. But that is another story and not my concern here. My concern here is with the weapon itself. To fill a world with religion, or religions of the Abrahamic kind, is like littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are used.
Promise a young man that death is not the end and he will willingly cause disaster
Richard Dawkins
A guided missile corrects its trajectory as it flies, homing in, say, on the heat of a jet plane`s exhaust. A great improvement on a simple ballistic shell, it still cannot discriminate particular targets. It could not zero in on a designated New York skyscraper if launched from as far away as Boston.
That is precisely what a modern ``smart missile`` can do. Computer miniaturisation has advanced to the point where one of today`s smart missiles could be programmed with an image of the Manhattan skyline together with instructions to home in on the north tower of the World Trade Centre. Smart missiles of this sophistication are possessed by the United States, as we learned in the Gulf war, but they are economically beyond ordinary terrorists and scientifically beyond theocratic governments. Might there be a cheaper and easier alternative?
In the second world war, before electronics became cheap and miniature, the psychologist BF Skinner did some research on pigeon-guided missiles. The pigeon was to sit in a tiny cockpit, having previously been trained to peck keys in such a way as to keep a designated target in the centre of a screen. In the missile, the target would be for real.
The principle worked, although it was never put into practice by the US authorities. Even factoring in the costs of training them, pigeons are cheaper and lighter than computers of comparable effectiveness. Their feats in Skinner`s boxes suggest that a pigeon, after a regimen of training with colour slides, really could guide a missile to a distinctive landmark at the southern end of Manhattan island. The pigeon has no idea that it is guiding a missile. It just keeps on pecking at those two tall rectangles on the screen, from time to time a food reward drops out of the dispenser, and this goes on until... oblivion.
Pigeons may be cheap and disposable as on-board guidance systems, but there`s no escaping the cost of the missile itself. And no such missile large enough to do much damage could penetrate US air space without being intercepted. What is needed is a missile that is not recognised for what it is until too late. Something like a large civilian airliner, carrying the innocuous markings of a well-known carrier and a great deal of fuel. That`s the easy part. But how do you smuggle on board the necessary guidance system? You can hardly expect the pilots to surrender the left-hand seat to a pigeon or a computer.
How about using humans as on-board guidance systems, instead of pigeons? Humans are at least as numerous as pigeons, their brains are not significantly costlier than pigeon brains, and for many tasks they are actually superior. Humans have a proven track record in taking over planes by the use of threats, which work because the legitimate pilots value their own lives and those of their passengers.
The natural assumption that the hijacker ultimately values his own life too, and will act rationally to preserve it, leads air crews and ground staff to make calculated decisions that would not work with guidance modules lacking a sense of self-preservation. If your plane is being hijacked by an armed man who, though prepared to take risks, presumably wants to go on living, there is room for bargaining. A rational pilot complies with the hijacker`s wishes, gets the plane down on the ground, has hot food sent in for the passengers and leaves the negotiations to people trained to negotiate.
The problem with the human guidance system is precisely this. Unlike the pigeon version, it knows that a successful mission culminates in its own destruction. Could we develop a biological guidance system with the compliance and dispensability of a pigeon but with a man`s resourcefulness and ability to infiltrate plausibly? What we need, in a nutshell, is a human who doesn`t mind being blown up. He`d make the perfect on-board guidance system. But suicide enthusiasts are hard to find. Even terminal cancer patients might lose their nerve when the crash was actually looming.
Could we get some otherwise normal humans and somehow persuade them that they are not going to die as a consequence of flying a plane smack into a skyscraper? If only! Nobody is that stupid, but how about this - it`s a long shot, but it just might work. Given that they are certainly going to die, couldn`t we sucker them into believing that they are going to come to life again afterwards? Don`t be daft! No, listen, it might work. Offer them a fast track to a Great Oasis in the Sky, cooled by everlasting fountains. Harps and wings wouldn`t appeal to the sort of young men we need, so tell them there`s a special martyr`s reward of 72 virgin brides, guaranteed eager and exclusive.
Would they fall for it? Yes, testosterone-sodden young men too unattractive to get a woman in this world might be desperate enough to go for 72 private virgins in the next.
It`s a tall story, but worth a try. You`d have to get them young, though. Feed them a complete and self-consistent background mythology to make the big lie sound plausible when it comes. Give them a holy book and make them learn it by heart. Do you know, I really think it might work. As luck would have it, we have just the thing to hand: a ready-made system of mind-control which has been honed over centuries, handed down through generations. Millions of people have been brought up in it. It is called religion and, for reasons which one day we may understand, most people fall for it (nowhere more so than America itself, though the irony passes unnoticed). Now all we need is to round up a few of these faith-heads and give them flying lessons.
Facetious? Trivialising an unspeakable evil? That is the exact opposite of my intention, which is deadly serious and prompted by deep grief and fierce anger. I am trying to call attention to the elephant in the room that everybody is too polite - or too devout - to notice: religion, and specifically the devaluing effect that religion has on human life. I don`t mean devaluing the life of others (though it can do that too), but devaluing one`s own life. Religion teaches the dangerous nonsense that death is not the end.
If death is final, a rational agent can be expected to value his life highly and be reluctant to risk it. This makes the world a safer place, just as a plane is safer if its hijacker wants to survive. At the other extreme, if a significant number of people convince themselves, or are convinced by their priests, that a martyr`s death is equivalent to pressing the hyperspace button and zooming through a wormhole to another universe, it can make the world a very dangerous place. Especially if they also believe that that other universe is a paradisical escape from the tribulations of the real world. Top it off with sincerely believed, if ludicrous and degrading to women, sexual promises, and is it any wonder that naive and frustrated young men are clamouring to be selected for suicide missions?
There is no doubt that the afterlife-obsessed suicidal brain really is a weapon of immense power and danger. It is comparable to a smart missile, and its guidance system is in many respects superior to the most sophisticated electronic brain that money can buy. Yet to a cynical government, organisation, or priesthood, it is very very cheap.
Our leaders have described the recent atrocity with the customary cliche: mindless cowardice. ``Mindless`` may be a suitable word for the vandalising of a telephone box. It is not helpful for understanding what hit New York on September 11. Those people were not mindless and they were certainly not cowards. On the contrary, they had sufficiently effective minds braced with an insane courage, and it would pay us mightily to understand where that courage came from.
It came from religion. Religion is also, of course, the underlying source of the divisiveness in the Middle East which motivated the use of this deadly weapon in the first place. But that is another story and not my concern here. My concern here is with the weapon itself. To fill a world with religion, or religions of the Abrahamic kind, is like littering the streets with loaded guns. Do not be surprised if they are used.
#15 Posted by Gowardhan on September 16, 2001 5:57:10 am
In Cases of Terrorism Mere Technicalities Must Not be Allowed to Hinder The Process of Justice
http://www.dawn.com/2001/09/15/top11.htm
MQM activist`s plea dismissed: KESC chief`s murder case
By Our Staff Reporter
[The AG requested the court not to show any leniency to the appellant who was involved in an act of terrorism. In cases of terrorism, mere technicalities must not be allowed to hinder the process of justice, he stated. ]
http://www.dawn.com/2001/09/15/top11.htm
MQM activist`s plea dismissed: KESC chief`s murder case
By Our Staff Reporter
[The AG requested the court not to show any leniency to the appellant who was involved in an act of terrorism. In cases of terrorism, mere technicalities must not be allowed to hinder the process of justice, he stated. ]
#16 Posted by jazba99 on September 16, 2001 5:57:10 am
good insight, i thought this might be appropriate
:
AS I write this letter, the US is preparing itself for an all-out attack on
Afghanistan. Watching the scenes a few miles away from the Pentagon, and witnessing the jingoism that has sadly polluted the minds of Americans has not been a welcoming experience.
For millions of people like me, who have come to the USA for work, or only to complete their education, we always bear the brunt of being caught in the middle of nowhere. It has never been so painful and difficult as it is now. My
heart goes out to the victims of this tragedy, to the innocent ones whose lives were lost through the frenzied ideology of someone who just killed
humanity. I am all for donating blood, food, and everything to the victims of this holocaust. But then, when my mosque is vandalized with messages like ``you pigs`` , `` Muslims will burn`` ; when a local radio station claims `` Allah is evil ``, I dont quite know what to say and how to react. Honestly speaking, the calls for wearing an American badge, displaying the US flag are looked
askance. I dont feel American, I am human, and I am saddenned by the senseless killing,
but somehow the Americanization of this conflict does not amuse me. The impression that you are American first and then something else, makes the
millions here queasy.
I dont condone terrorism. My country ( Pakistan ) has been more of its resigned victim than
the US has ever been. Amidst this chaos, I cant forget Muhammed Al Durrah, the 12 year old, who was killed by an Isreali bullet in front of his father. I cant gather enough strength to condone ( and differentiate ) that brand of terrorism from this. The innocent victims of America`s wrath in Iraq are no less victims of `` despicable crimes `` than are the victims of Tuesday`s
holocaust. America must realize that a child killed in Iraq is as beautiful and loveable than an American Child killed on its own soil.
Amidst these chaotic thoughts, among the rubble of dilemma that lies in the mind of a million Muslims, I feel uneasy knowing that my country has agreed to American demands of attacking an already battered people. I am a Muslim first,
and someone else next.
America is letting me be a human being , but at this time, I am finding it hard to be a Muslim.
May Allah help us all. We need your prayers, all of us.
:
AS I write this letter, the US is preparing itself for an all-out attack on
Afghanistan. Watching the scenes a few miles away from the Pentagon, and witnessing the jingoism that has sadly polluted the minds of Americans has not been a welcoming experience.
For millions of people like me, who have come to the USA for work, or only to complete their education, we always bear the brunt of being caught in the middle of nowhere. It has never been so painful and difficult as it is now. My
heart goes out to the victims of this tragedy, to the innocent ones whose lives were lost through the frenzied ideology of someone who just killed
humanity. I am all for donating blood, food, and everything to the victims of this holocaust. But then, when my mosque is vandalized with messages like ``you pigs`` , `` Muslims will burn`` ; when a local radio station claims `` Allah is evil ``, I dont quite know what to say and how to react. Honestly speaking, the calls for wearing an American badge, displaying the US flag are looked
askance. I dont feel American, I am human, and I am saddenned by the senseless killing,
but somehow the Americanization of this conflict does not amuse me. The impression that you are American first and then something else, makes the
millions here queasy.
I dont condone terrorism. My country ( Pakistan ) has been more of its resigned victim than
the US has ever been. Amidst this chaos, I cant forget Muhammed Al Durrah, the 12 year old, who was killed by an Isreali bullet in front of his father. I cant gather enough strength to condone ( and differentiate ) that brand of terrorism from this. The innocent victims of America`s wrath in Iraq are no less victims of `` despicable crimes `` than are the victims of Tuesday`s
holocaust. America must realize that a child killed in Iraq is as beautiful and loveable than an American Child killed on its own soil.
Amidst these chaotic thoughts, among the rubble of dilemma that lies in the mind of a million Muslims, I feel uneasy knowing that my country has agreed to American demands of attacking an already battered people. I am a Muslim first,
and someone else next.
America is letting me be a human being , but at this time, I am finding it hard to be a Muslim.
May Allah help us all. We need your prayers, all of us.
#17 Posted by Gowardhan on September 16, 2001 5:57:10 am
New York Buildings Were ``Twin Brothers of Oppression``
- Pakistani Newsletter Writer
http://www.dawn.com/2001/09/16/letted.htm
- Pakistani Newsletter Writer
http://www.dawn.com/2001/09/16/letted.htm
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