Explaining it to an American Friend

Ref unpolished-semiprecious-me #: 255

[….sometimes I really wonder if people like you

have some iota of common sense….but I guess it must be chained up by all that hatred you possess….]

Hatred? Inside moi? Hey, I am not the one who flew the planes into the WTC towers. Maybe that is an act of LOVE in your vocabulary?

[WAKE UP! ….it’s not islam that has brought this to afghanistan but it’s what years of civil war and invasions has brought…it’s what weapons of mass destruction in the hands of the uneducated taliban (manily supplied by uncle sam) have brought….]

Let us get our history correct here, sweetheart. The hated Americans supplied weapons to defeat the invading Russians. When the Russians left Afghanistan, the Americans also left. The civil war inside Afghanistan between Hekmatyar, Rabbani`s government and a host of other unsavory characters was fueled by Pakistan and its ISI in the hope of controlling Afghanistan and acquiring `strategic depth` for Pakistan. As if, you guys were going to retreat into Afghanistan in the case of an invasion by India. Finally, Pakistan latched on to the Taliban as their last white hope to control Afghanistan and have supported them with Pakistani Air Force attacks on the Rabbani government troops, Pak Army advisers and troops, etc. And the Taliban itself was nurtured in the madrassahs of Pakistan.

[it’s what helplessness, hunger, illiteracy have brought….]

So, who told the UN relief organization to leave Afghanistan? Who arrested the head of the UN relief organization? Who has shut down the scools in Afghanistan? Who, in spite of the drought, are invading remote villages with the idea of conquest? The Talibam, that is who. The students of -- a drum roll please -- ISLAM!

GET IT?????

Joseph,

The middle class South Asians Americans that I know, who are part of cultural organizations are doing their best to organize blood drives, collect and donate money, and do whatever they can to help. They work in surburban, middle class communities, are on Board of Ed and PTA commitees and are trying, by their very conduct, to show what a loving Islam is.

I sense an unspoken undercurrent in your post that implies that American Muslims must continually verbalize their sadness... the Muslims, as any group I know, have been expressing their sadness in conversations, in classes, on the radio, in visual and textual media. There are, as I type this, Muslim American groups that are trying to organize group responses. There are some working class Arab Americans community organizers in Brooklyn who are so busy deflecting local harassment and setting up secure spaces for Arab women and children, that they feel they have not been ``allowed`` to mourn. However, what must Muslims do to prove to the satisfaction of other Americans that they are sad (without having to apologize for the sick individuals who are responsible for these acts of terrorism)? Have we as Americans, as a unified group proven our remorse for the acts of state terrorism perpetrated against Central Americans by leaders who were trained in the School of the Americas? The Sudan? Iraq? Cuba?

A few more thoughts: my sister was among the medical staff that hopefully waited for injured victims of the WTC. My brother is thinking about joining the military. I have students in my Bronx CUNY freshman comp class, who, not knowing that I am of South Asian descent, opine that we should just `bomb them all``. Other students have had brothers who were missing for a week before they turned up at Bellevue.

My deepest condolences for your missing and lost friends. I have been fortunate in not losing anyone directly related to me. I can assure you that my family and friends (of all denominations) have worked in efforts around the Wtc attack. Maybe our efforts should be enough to signify the depth of our sadness.

Unfortunately, there are no easy answers.

regards

PM #251 ``My beef was with those suggesting that Islam, per se, is a Religoin of hate. ``

Thanks, PM. Now we are getting somewhere: It is time all of us - regardless of religion - stood up to the the hate-mongerers who enjoy insulting other people`s beliefs.

Hi SaminaShah,

My observation is not in reference to average Arab/Asian Muslim, as I very well understand their fear. And there is a wide campaign in America (started with Pres. Bush`s address to congress and now regular campaign in form of TV commercials etc.) to educate people on racial tolerance and to refrain from hate crime. Is there such effort in Arab Islamic community to urge people to rise and stand up against those fellow followers of Islam who use name of Islam to commit crimes? If it is, it is not visible.

It is also true that vast numbers of these intolerance incidences are reported happening in University campuses. Hope it was just an initial response of anger, thus totally unjustifiable. Now the American people do understand and forgive initial celebrations by Arabs in the streets of Palestine and streets of Paterson New Jersey.

So I am talking about the absence of leaders of Asian / Arabic Islamic religious groups of New York at this prayer gathering. I can assure you that City of New York must have asked them to join on that day. To be honest with you, Americans would like to have some form of assurance from these Arab communities that they, AS AMERICANS, do not help and support terrorists, who are believed to be Arabic or Asian Muslims, who are still believed to be on US soil and do have support of these type of communities, may be inadvertently.

Is there any organized effort on behalf of Asian-Islamic leaders to address these concerns of Americans, and also any effort to educate their fellow community members to not support those who engage in terrorist activities?

Yes, I admire courage of those who do not change their beliefs and appearance simply because of fear. And I would admire their courage more if they would stand up against their own who claim their way of Islam is right.

I am a New Yorker, and I have lost friends in this terrorist act. Mike and Paul who worked at WTC with whom I have enjoyed countless Saturday morning runs in Central Park are still missing (not giving up hope). And then there are friends who work on Wall Street and are lucky to escape the horror. Needless to say, as a Chowkie and as an American I am right in the middle of this, physically and emotionally.

Regards,

Joseph

Akash:

``You are of course not a whiner but a doer :-). Else you wouldn`t be sitting there and writing this to me.``

see id always maintained that not all indians were dudooz..you are a very quick learner sweetumnz..now would you like me to punch you to prove yet again what a great doer i am?

harimau #174

“Look at what Islam has brought to Afghanistan.”

….sometimes I really wonder if people like you

have some iota of common sense….but I guess it must be chained up by all that hatred you possess….WAKE UP! ….it’s not islam that has brought this to afghanistan but it’s what years of civil war and invasions has brought…it’s what weapons of mass destruction in the hands of the uneducated taliban (manily supplied by uncle sam) have brought….it’s what helplessness, hunger, illiteracy have brought….GET IT?????

RSaxena #186

{{India, Russia, Iran plan to jointly boost anti-Taliban forces: report…..

……well all I can say is, more power to them….

mohajir,

The Patrick Masih in your reprinted article (who is not me) might have valid concerns for the safety of Christians in Pakistan. However, he failed to mention that last Friday was the one Friday when Juma khutbas DID not deride Christians.. perhaps on the orders of the higher authorities.

re. Gowardhan #249

`` ``Catholicism`` and ``pristine pure Christianity`` are distinctions made later, they are distinctions people make *today *. When Christians were frying women, burning them at stake, cutting into small bit bodies of heretic who dared question their foolishness of that time, sending young boys on Crusades to be slaughered like dogs, there was NO CATHOLICISM AND NO PROTESTANTISM. It was CHRISTIANITY. Despite your blind love the *eternal * Christianity, that christianity was a hateful, disgusting, violent, pathetic religion. It is commendable that most (not all) christians have left that crap behind and dont talk about it proudly.``

du-uh! Are you usually this full of crap or is it only when in rant mode and PMS that you are given to these imbecelic generalizations and associations. So, lets see if I understand you now... in a nutshell ... a religion is described by the actions of its worst adherents (or anyone claiming to be its custodians), and there is NO way to disassociate the substance of a religion from the actions of its adherents. hmmm... how intersting. Well, Mr. Gowdy, in that case, for `proof` of the innate evil of Christianity, why delve back to the Middle Ages. Have we not the example of that most noble Christian Adolph Hitler before us?

And you have still not shown me where I have condoned acid throwing, or suggested that ANY response to terrorist attacks is the same as terrorism.

But never mind. Few people probably read you anymore, and then too, just for comic relief.

sorry if this is repeated... network problems here..

Read Chomsky interview @ http://www.dawn.com/2001/09/25/op.htm#3

excerpts

Q: After the first shock, came fear of what US answer is going to be. Are you afraid, too?

A: Every sane person should be afraid of the likely reaction - the one that has already been announced, the one that probably answers Bin Laden`s prayers... If that demand is implemented, unknown numbers of people who have not the remotest connection to terrorism will die, possibly millions. Let me repeat: the US has demanded that Pakistan kill possibly millions of people who are themselves victims of the Taliban. This has nothing to do even with revenge. It is at a far lower moral level even than that.

Q: ``The world will never be the same after September 11``. Do you agree?

A: The horrendous terrorist attacks on Tuesday are something quite new in world affairs, not in their scale and character, but in the target. For the US, this is the first time since the War of 1812 that its national territory has been under attack, even threat. It`s colonies have been attacked, but not the national territory itself.

During these years the US virtually exterminated the indigenous population, conquered half of Mexico, intervened violently in the surrounding region, conquered Hawaii and the Philippines (killing hundreds of thousands of Filipinos), and in the past half century particularly, extended its resort to force throughout much of the world. The number of victims is colossal.

For the first time, the guns have been directed the other way.

re RSaxena:

``Again, the key word is ``was`` ... not anymore. All I am asking is why more Muslims don`t want to take a crack at fixing whatever it is that causes so many of Islam`s followers to use it as a crutch for terrorism?``

But issue was not about whether Islam needed revising/reinterpretation. Only the the severly reading challenged could conclude that I oppose such a reformation, even of the book. My beef was with those suggesting that Islam, per se, is a Religoin of hate. You seemed to applaud harimau for suggesting exactly that. Comprende?

re. harimau:

``After all, it is difficult to ban sati but approve in the same breath the burning at the stake of infidels.``

harimau, while I don`t wish to get into the socio-politics of cultural practices here, I am impressed with the wonderful -- shall we say logic? -- of comparing the punishment for criminals (however differently we judge their acts in the twentyfirst century) with the practice of objectifying women to such a degree that they are to end their very lives with their husbands. Some said something about religions of hate? Does misogynism, even if veiled, constitute hate or not?

Reply Stuka # 235

Stuka

Re: Malhia Lodhi’s TV appearance.

Hamare tharaf se Maneka Gandhi dakhil. She will, of course, wear either Leopard Leotard or a Cat Woman suit….

(For non-Indian readers, just in case you didn’t know, Maneka Gandhi was popularly known as the daughter-in-law of the nation, and is now – I think – Minister for something in the National Govt. and has long been known to like animals better than she likes most people…set up some organisation for animal welfare in Delhi…)``

Being a true daughter of You Know Where, Maneka will try to win the TV debate by

(1) Speaking constantly, not giving that Lodhi woman (or indeed the interviewer) a chance to say anything

(2) Speaking extremely loudly, just in case microphone etc. is not working – even if the interview is in the US she will want to be heard by friends and well wishers in the homeland, despite unfortunate technical failure.

(3) Speaking on the subject she is interested in (animals) and not on what the interviewer or TLW think should be discussed (which, if you refer to point no one, they will be unable to articulate even once. If anybody remembers a Johnny Carson interview with Grace Jones where she spent fifty minutes refusing to talk about anything but her hat, thereby bringing Carson to the point of tears, yes, this is the kind of thing we are going to be aiming for.)

This will seem to be working, but then the Pakistani Consulate will get out their heavy artillery, ie a certain poster from Chowk will be wheeled out waving references for Gandhi’s responsibility for Jihad….that clown Lodhi will be sent back to Islamabad for reassignment to typing pool….and….

So then of course hamare tharaf se Rabri Devi…(We also have Jayalalitha, but since she is the equivalent of a Nuclear blast I think we should save her for later...can you imagine Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam types threatening self immolation because TLW interrupted Amma? Well imagine it now…)

Zafar

PS Let me know your travel plans when they firm up. Hopefully yeh Kake da hotel thing kar payenge.

PPS I wasn`t being nasty to Ali - I hope he enjoyed that joke and also this one.

Reply Temporal #: 36

“...heck his fatwa is about as good as mine against that double agent zafar (relax zafar, am enquiring from isi for your back pay as well as asking raw to increase your remunerations...you know the times!...both are citing economic woes..blahblah...but have faith brother...this business never dies!)...”

one more week, and then if no pay I’m going to work for the Bangladeshis, kam se kam voh log ration tho dethe hain, not like these fancy ISI RAW vale jo “check is in the mail, check is in the mail” kahthe rahthe hain, tun tun Govind jaise…haan, I have options, ok…aap un ko bathaa deejiye…

Reply Shammi # 43

Shammiji

``...(I can’t think of any “Muslim” country which doesn’t fall into the first group....``

“Zafarji: Why is that?”

I’ve thought further about this, and would tentatively profer Tunisia, Turkey and Indonesia as countries which have a mahaul which encourages progressive thought. (Yes, I know we haven’t agreed on a definition for this, so we can let it rest if you wish…)

I would say that the factors which result in countries being open to progress or closed to progress are (yes, let’s haul out our Marx) a combination of geography (in the wider sense of the word, so including demographics) and history. Both of which contribute to how each country perceived its classical (normative) period when the ideas of the renaissance and the scientific method (I’ll refer to this as “modernity” for lack of a better term) reached them – and how they perceived the vehicle which brought these ideas to them.

The golden age of the Islamic World – Haroon al-Rashid et al - is within historical memory – so it is codified, and relatively accessible as a detailed sort of “blue print” – assuming one wants to revive it. (I know I suggested not using subcontinental comparisons, but since I don’t know much else, compare this to Hinduism’s perceived Golden Age, or yug. It is not within historical memory – certainly not in historical detail - hence Hindus who wanted to revive Hinduism’s greatness as a civilisation had a free-er hand.) My point is that when intellectually offered a version of “modernity”, many Muslims might have a different (and detailed) reference point which was at odds with this.

Furthermore, the vehicle which introduced the ideas behind modernity to much of the Muslim world was in large part colonialism – which I think cast a shadow on the ideas associated with it. Contrast India’s attitude towards modernity (ambivalent for many years after independence) with Thailand’s. Thailand has no colonial hangup, we did, they got on with it, we didn’t. (Uh oh, now how do I explain Nepal? Geography?)

Interestingly, Turkey (perhaps the most “progressive” Muslim country in the world) (1) continues to have a polity which was founded on a rejection of Turkey’s classical era – the Khilafat – and its definitions of nationhood, and (2) has never been colonised. I suspect that these are relevant factors for Turkey’s open-ness to change. (Though the first point is not universally accepted in Turkey, and of course there’s many a slip between the cup and the lip.)

“… self-preservation required jettisoning the primacy of the clergy in affairs of the state. Turkey, since it competed directly with European powers, would have had to adopt similar methods. Could that explain Turkey`s situation today?”

The Ottoman state failed, perhaps because of the double role of the Caliph – spiritual and temporal head. I’d agree that these two may have been factors in the Republic of Turkey’s relative success.

Zafar

Joseph,

Perhaps many Asian Muslims did not show up because they were afraid. How many Chowkies attended any of the funerals of the firemen killed in the WTC attack? Did you? Would it be fair to assume that you harbor enmity towards the firefighters? A lack of attendance does not signify lack of mourning.

I have alot of respect for the mainly young South Asian Muslim women showing up with their heads covered and some South Asians in shalwar kameez on my campus. It is not an easy gig.

regards

mohajir 241

In Patrick Masih`s holy Pakistan there are no Presidents exhorting peple not to threaten Christians, no Anti-Defamantion League to spin stupid comments, no CNN platforms for Christians and other minorities on which claim absurd things about peace, no place to shed huge tears about being *suspected *. If minorities are left alive, that is enough.

It is all the same. Wearing clothes all the same as throwing acid on faces of young girls. Pakistan USA all the same. Bombing airplanes full of innocent men and punishing such animals all the same.

Yours in Osama.

[Christianity still capable of monstrous cruelty. In 1766 there was a further outrage, when the young Chevalier de la Barre failed to doff his hat in respect while a Capuchin religious procession passed through the streets of Abbeville. (It was raining.) He was charged and convicted of blasphemy, and sentenced to `the torture ordinary and extraordinary`, his hands to be cut off, his tongue torn out with pincers, and to be burned alive. This atrocious case haunted Voltaire for the rest of his life]

PM 242

[christianity blah blah blah]

You are getting increasingly confused in your supposed patriotic attempts to whitewash crime.

``Catholicism`` and ``pristine pure Christianity`` are distinctions made later, they are distinctions people make *today *. When Christians were frying women, burning them at stake, cutting into small bit bodies of heretic who dared question their foolishness of that time, sending young boys on Crusades to be slaughered like dogs, there was NO CATHOLICISM AND NO PROTESTANTISM. It was CHRISTIANITY.

Despite your blind love the *eternal * Christianity, that christianity was a hateful, disgusting, violent, pathetic religion. It is commendable that most (not all) christians have left that crap behind and dont talk about it proudly.

There was nothing nice and eternal about Christianity. It was fixed by many great secular men who gave their lives, died, were burnt so you can come and claim it was a eternal religion of peace. Crap. It was a religion of hate. They were killing without shame and dying to liberate their holy sites like many Jihadis these days. To say that Christanity today is the same as Christainity of that time or it is all a matter of interpretation to be hypocrite and spitting on the faces of those countless secular and philosopher martyrs on whose dead body Christianity became a something different from behavior of animals.

History of Christianity is far worse, more violent, more dictatorial than of Islam. But it has evolved in a better direction. Many muslim people themselves realize the need for their religion and all religions to evolve.

In India Hindus and Muslims fight for many reasons but in that fight Christians get a free ride to talk about eternal, peaceful Christianity. That is pure lie and you know it.