Jihad: Paradoxes and Defining Moments

``America`s New Allies``, by Robert Fisk.

http://www.dawn.com/2001/10/15/op.htm#2

Boneheads need not follow the link. It is, after all, from the `Yawn`

re. sadna:

Sadhana, your comments viz the Taliban-friendly piece I posted was most informative. Exactly what I was hoping to see. Thank you.

I wonder why you should think I would ignore it?

rgds,

PM

P.S. btw, what/whom do you see as a more just, peacable alternative to the Taliban? Have you read Bob Fisk`s most recent column in The Independent? Will try and post it here anon.

re. Go-soft-on #575

``A new way to ``ably discredit`` the Wall Street Journal.

Just say I dont believe it. Or it is bonehead. Wall Street is discredited.``

No. Actually, you must state the reason why you assert boneheadedness to a statement (such as a statement that a war was lost by a much smaller army which managed to keep the enemy from advancing).

Get it, bonehead?

re. RSaxena #573

``So tell us, PM, why was ylh lying?``

tsk..tsk.. still obsessed with ylh`s motives, aren`t we!

Okay, I`ll answer that if you tell us why you lied about the exchange being ONLY about proving ylh`s claim about the absence of foreign sources. :)

P.S. your concern for my wrist, although well-taken, is quite unwarranted. Some of us have more -- shall we say holisitc? -- types of fun.

Aicha

(As for the women covering themselves - i dont know what to make out of their bizarre twisted justifications. But I do know it takes a lot of courage to stand out in a crowd. Too bad it is misplaced)

Calling it bizarre and twisted justifications is unfair. Saying it is an urge to stand out and a misplaced one, is most unfair. It`s all about choice aicha. If we let a man make love to another man saying it is his choice, then a woman choosing to cover herself should not be reprimanded or called oppressed by the whole world, its mother and you. Whatever happens to respecting ones individual choice when the topic of veils comes up? Leaves me most confused, it does.

Samina

Greetings to you too. How goes it?

rsridhar # 571

``Do you also know that as a non-muslim if i happen to walk on the road to Kaaba, i will be beheaded.``

Sentry posts are built at about 15 km before Mecca and Medina on the main highways.All modes

of transport are stopped to check the passengers

and allowed to continue onwards.Non muslims are

turned back.However,non muslims have been allowed to proceed to the city viz.Mecca and Medina if

they have been issued special permits and the purpose ofthe visit.Mr.Oberoi of India,a hindu gentleman,has a 5 star hotel ``Oberoi Medina`` which is 200 yards away from the Masjid-e-Nabvi and he visitshis property once a yeaatleast.This special permit is however not easily obtained.

I hope this helps.

Regards.

ps:non muslims are not allowed inside the two

mosques.The special permit probably means constant watch.

Reply Sigalphdada # 479

“You see this bill throught, Zafarji, and we will name you Deputy Prime Minister(for obvious reasons YOU cannot be Prime Minister).”

Um…I had hoped for the position of Minister for Vice, Decadence and Hedonism…certain promises were made, you know…(Hey, I know I’m not Bengali, but I hadn’t expected a BL type person like you to be so direct about this unfortunate handicap…)

Reply Neptune # 484

[“What are you implying about Roachistan?...

“Hrrmph... what do you expect if I am left out of the cabinet... heinh?”]

Wait wait wait wait wait….left out of Cabinet….yeh kiss ne kaha? Rest assured that your place in Cabinet (and Wardrobe, and Chest of Drawers) is assured…

Reply Urstruly # 494

Urstruly

“Zafar I think you get the idea. Now I hate you for wasting my precious time.”

Don’t have a hissy fit Urstruly, typing karthe karthe doritos kha sakthe ho.

“But if you again accuse of fabrication. I will take a day off and put the whole data in tabular form.”

I accuse you of fabrication. Please provide data in tabular form as promised above.

“… would you care to explain the following meanwhile. I have demanded the some explanation from Sadna and other Hindutva spokesmen Hindus but no one cares to expalin. Perhaps you would:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Pantheon/4789/Communalism/muslims”

I tried to follow the link but got the following message: “The web page you are trying to access doesn`t exist on Yahoo! GeoCities.“

Your truthfulness and scrupulousness in providing accurate and relevant references to back up your loony comments on chowk demonstrated once more?

Zafar

PS “I think I am the most scrutinized; scrutinized to the extent of persecution; guy on Chowk, second only to YLH. Therefore, I try not to BullSht.”

Don’t be ridiculous, you’re too boring to be scrutinized by anyone more than a couple of times (not to mention the effort involved - you`re only marginally more coherent than Bapu). Btw, your efforts not to talk rubbish seem to be unsuccessful. Perhaps you should consider therapy.

Reply Rdesikan # 517

[Re: VS Naipaul “…he wrote a middle book on his so-called trilogy called A wounded civilization which if I`m not mistaken, was banned during the emergency by Mrs Gandhi--and was a hot property to smuggle in.”]

Happy memories of smuggling Satanic Verses into India….

:-)

ylh

Wall Street Journal is one of the most well respected and authoritative dailies anywhere other than Pakistan. It publishes articles on many subjects other than Pakistani ideology. It is not a rag published in Rawalpindi or Rutgers.

Re: ylh

Mental institution?

- delusions of rutgers in the ivy league

- caught lying

- known for bursts of mental instability resulting in 20-30 posts at a time

- most easily provoked person on an anonymous message board, breaking into a frantic sweat and blurting out statements like ``the only good indian is a dead indian``

- projecting one`s own retardation onto others

who needs the prozac now, little boy?

Re: shrinker

Dude, you are one sick, perverted SOB. Now we know why you come to Chowk, despite your wife`s complaints.

RShridhar#: 570

I know for a fact that non-hindus are not allowed into the Jagganath temple at Puri. The town itself has lot of foreign tourists etc (it has pretty decent beaches). There is this special window to which the idol is raised on some days of the year so that his ``non-hindu devotees`` (yes, this puzzled me too) can have a ``darshan``.

I remember this vividly though I visited Puri nearly 10 yeas ago because of my rage at being told this.

(Hey, ylh, tahmed etc wanna come along we`ll storm the temple at Puri and put the moron ``Pandas`` (priests, but disgrace to the word) in their place.

JIHADIC VENTING AND TERROR MECHANICS,

For one religion jihad is the central theme, which essentially sets up men to seek death for the furtherence of the religion. When the education system focusses on the jihad, a large number of death hungry youngsters are created. There is a need for outlet to this desire, there is a need for jihadic venting. At any time there are a few venting zones, it was iran-iraq war, it was arab-israel, afghanistan, kashmir etc.

Of late the venting zones have not been able to cope with the damands, and new avenues are being created. It is interesting that in the WTC action, palestenians are not involved and this can be attributed to the ``dial a shehdad system`` of israel.

An understanding of the terror mechanics is essential for its effective control.

Re: Some clarifications

Chowk gives us a unique opportunity to put forward our views fearlessly. I was concerned at what Shammi had to say about my views. My subsequent 2 posts were more of a knee-jerk reaction. I was angry. NOw i am in a calmer mood. So, an explanation of my views is in order. Before that, my apologies to Shammi and others if i have caused them any distress by my views.



In the past month, i have seen images of destruction wrought forth by a madman who justified his acts in the name of God. I have also seen why they say America is the greatest democracy. America has tried to come to terms with this tragedy in a rational manner. While we did see some backlash, believe me that was miniscule compared to what happened to Sikhs soon after Indira Gandhi`s death was announced (an incident most of Indians should be ashamed of despite the fact it was enacted by Congress and many lives were saved by common men). America is trying to understand why there is so much hatred in some section of muslim population and it is doing it by teasing out the problem and discussing it (sometimes i feel they are overdoing it!).

While muslims all over the world have condemned the act on Sept 11, it pains me to say that most of them have done so with a rider, so to say. ``Yes, what OBL did was wrong but...``. This ``but`` is usually followed by the palestine problem. Some have even chipped in with the unsolved Kashmir problem. OBL says that unless Palestine problem is solved, US will face terrorism. His last warning included Kashmir also (courtesy ISI, i suppose). The question then is: Can a terrorist act of a magnitude seen on Sept 11 in New York (or for that matter, any terrorist act)be justified by saying this should not have happened but then USA has neglected the Palestine problem. It is like saying that USA had it coming.

I see Palestine problem as a failure of American foreign policy. Why should innocent civilians from more than 50 countries pay with their lives as a result of that failure.? Are there no other means of bringing to the notice of US how the muslims feel about Palestine and other causes?

I suspect, Palestine is the name OBL is using to bring forth a reaction from muslims. I see that the silent majority who are supposed to be against OBL`s policies are doing nothing. Why do they not come out in large numbers and speak out against OBL and his acts of terrorism? Why does not Musharraf organise a large demonstration (100 fold stronger than any pro-Taliban protests we have seen so far)in favor of US-led coalition. He just cannot do it and i will explain why so.

I have said in the past that terrorism as a means of addressing one`s grievance is wrong, be it LTTE or Kashmiri jehadists or any other. The reaction to violence is always more violence and innocent lives are usually lost. We have already seen US response. Today i saw on T.V how some innocent Afghani lives were lost due to a misdirected bomb-hit. This was inevitable. Roaches like OBL will actually try to take advantage of this.

What will happen if the protests that we are seeing in Pakistan in favor of Taliban and against US grew stronger and Musharraf is forced to call in the Army. Lower cadre of the Army share pro-Taliban sentiments as many of them have been to the same madrassas (so i learned from the T.V channels)as the ones who are demonstrating on the streets. They will hate to take on their own fellow beings. This may make Mushy`s condition precarious. If he is forced to use violence, he risks being overthrown. A fundoo may take over. There is no way to know how India and Israel may react if nuclear facilities fall into a fundoo`s hands. This has a potential to blow up into a major war.

What should Mushy be doing then? While he is cleaning his house off all Taliban elements, he should be mending fences with India so that lines of communication are open and even if he falls we know that the nuclear facilities are safe. Do we see Musharraf making any conciliatory getures? I do not think so. He warned India to lay off initially. Then we hear that a suicide bomber (belonging to Jaish-e-Mohammed, a terrorist organisation that has its base in Pakistan) has rammed a car into J and K assembly killing a lot of civilians. When US forced his hands, Musharraf calls and invites ABV to visit Pakistan. India warns but does not react militarily to the attack on the assembly. Israel, in the same situation, would have bombarded all the training camps. Now i hear that after Jaish-e-mohammad was banned by US, they have changed their name. Mushy has gone on record saying nothing has changed and Kashmiri ``freedom struggle`` (read ``terrorism)will continue.

That is the other reason why i am so angry now a days. I have often said in the past that Mushy boy is riding a tiger called ``terrorism`` from which he will find it difficult to dismount. That is exactly what is happening now. He has to keep the Kashmiri jehadists in good humor in order to stay in power. That is why it is so essential that Pakistan has a true people`s democracy which will show the Army its proper place and go about the business of mending fences with India. Kashmir problem can be addressed in a diplomatic manner. Happenings on Sept 11 should have taught Musharraf not to play with fire. Has he learned his lessons. I get only mixed signals from the press. We shall have to wait and see.

Sorry for the long post. Regards to one and all.

Sridhar

rsaxena:

`We`ve made the point we wanted to make pretty clearly. The frustration and anger you are seeing from PM (and earlier ylh and sarati) are indicators that the truth is biting their behinds.`

I am worried about you. It seems that the mild case of `Saddam Hussain Syndrome` is now a full blown pyschological condition ... Please see a Shrink ASAP. I dont want to see the best years of your life being wasted in a mental institution.

-YLH