Jihad: Paradoxes and Defining Moments

FAME ON CRUTCHES,

Most pakistanis believe that Jinnah is great leader of world standing, who made contributions to the well being of mankind. They cannot point out what these contributions are, but rely on the crdibility, that is postional credibility, of peole with jobs ant harward etal and quotes them to say that jinnah is great.

The real contribution of jinnah is the reification of TNT, bringing into reality, an abhorant devisive idea. The greatness if at all of jinnah is comparable to that of another great leader in europe with a funny mush during WW 2 who also fired up a nation on a divisive theory.

An observation:

Every Paki (male atleast) here seems to have family in the armed forces or atleast has a keen interest in military affairs.

The sociology of such a highly ``militarised`` society must be interesting :-)

Re: ylh

Alright dude, now I feel bad for pushing your buttons.

So let`s see, there must be something we agree on. Let me try. You like restaurants? What kind? Like to go out? Have any favorite drinks, if you drink at all? What about girls? Surely you must like girls. Blondes? Brunettes? Psuedo-liberated desi girls? Maybe behenji types? What about cars? Have any favorites you want to buy yourself some day? Like to travel? Europe? East Asia? Must be something an evil Paki like you and an evil Indian like me might agree on...no?

re: tahmed321 # 708

tahmed321,

Thanks for clarifying that. Some of the laajawab rotis I miss in Yankee land include

chane (besan) ki roti

bajrae ki roti

makki ki roti

jawar ki roti.

I have not tried Bhoosae ki roti (yet), but hey, if in some hands straw can turn into gold, I am sure in other hands straw can turn into a delicacy :)

Shankar # 704

``Get this straight in your head. India DOES NOT want Pakistan back. Nor does it covet any part of Pakistani real estate. Even, POK.``

Ofcourse India does not want Pakistan or any part of it.We all know that.They just want to change the cartography of the area a la `71...yes??

Regards.

Subroto # 702

``Keep calling each other names - ``hindu chutiye``, ``musalman gandu`` and watch how the rest of the world leaves you far behind.``

My friend ! it has done that a long time ago. :(

Regards.

Ref Sadna

``The Pakistani military IS cowardly. It is afraid to fight a war with India in the open and has depended on surrogates to do its fighting for many years(remember Kargil)``

What is cowardly for one person is considered intelligent by the other. By all accounts Paki military srategy for the last 20 odd years in Afghanistan and Kashmir has been brilliant. They have at little military cost to themselves managed to advance their political-military agenda.

Now when it comes to affects these have had on their own societies they are not paid to (or have the expertise to) evaluate or factor it into their calculations. This is drawback of havng a military led foreign and domestic policiy.

whoops! ... correction

Those with I.Q.`s LOWER than 80 would NOT posses the requisite attention span to read or listen to anyhting more than a few minutes worth of news (sensationalism), and so would naturally only choose the latter in each case. :) Details to them would be imcomprehensible, and so dismissed as `blah blah blah`.

Good thing bad comprehension comes with having sub-80 IQ!

tahmedsahab:

course theres bhoosae kee roti tahmed sahab..but nothing like baesan kee roti....have u had that? very very difficult to make but verry delicious

shankar #704 ``When it comes to bravery, skill & patriotism, Pakistanis & their military rank very high up there.``

Thanks shankar - I come from a military family and some of the folks of the previous generation whom I most admire have indeed served in the military with ``bravery, skill and patriotism``. Now please hang in their as the Hate Paki Club members on chowk proceed as usual to insult you for having the guts to be positive about Pakistanis.

anNy #705 ``bhoosae kee roti``

Is there such a thing? I know makee kee roti is very nice. But I never hear of bhoosae kee roti (straw bread). Unless you are suggesting that some of us on chowk are in fact farm animals, happily tapping away on the internet when the farmer looks the other way...

I suspect some of us on chowk could indeed be cows or goats having fun provoking the south asian humans on chowk insult one another...

Ref YLH #: 687

[In the meantime, Pakistan-obsessed Indians like Rsaxena, Gowardhan, Harimau, Jay, Sadna, etc can go and shove something up their rearsides...]

We normally expel something thru our rearides. It is usually Pakistanis who take things up their rearsides.

PS. Tahmed123, you can go wild over this post too.

shankar
The Pakistani military IS cowardly. It is afraid to fight a war with India in the open and has depended on surrogates to do its fighting for many years(remember Kargil):

http://www.expressindia.com/fullstory.php?newsid=3645

Jaish threatens suicide attacks against India

Press Trust of India

Srinagar, October 18: Close on the heels of Lashkar-e-Toiba threatening to step up violence, another Pakistan-based militant outfit Jaish-e-Mohammad has warned of intensified suicidal attacks across India.

The central command of Jaish-e-Mohammad has decided to intensify suicidal attacks in retaliation to the ``indiscriminate`` shelling on civilian population by Indian troops in Akhnoor and Mendhar sectors and the threat by VHP to construct Ram temple at the disputed site of Ayodhya, a statement of the outfit said on Thursday.

The statement, which appeared in a local newspaper, said Delhi, Mumbai, Uttar Pradesh, Parliament and Assemblies besides Indian army installations would be targeted in the new wave of attacks.

Meanwhile, military spokesman of the outfit Abu Hamza denied that the name of the outfit was changed to Tehreek-ul-Furqan. ``It (change of name of the outfit) is not true,`` the spokesman said, adding ``we will never change the name of our group?.

``The name of the group has remained Jaish-e-Mohammad. It is still Jaish-e-Mohammad, and it will remain Jaish-e-Mohammad,`` Hamza said in the statement. The outfit had claimed responsibility for the October 1 suicidal attack on the state Kashmir Assembly which claimed life of 34 civilians and four militants.

yasser:

``delusional little bhoosa bhara mind``

bhoosae kee roti is very nice; must u malign it with such associations yasser?

ylh,

I`m not saying that the Pakistani military is cowardly. Far from it. When it comes to bravery, skill & patriotism, Pakistanis & their military rank very high up there.

Americans have armed & trained the PAF. Naturally, they know the PAF`s prowess better than the IAFs. There is no doubt in my mind that the PAF is a magnificent fighting force.

Having said that, it seems to me that in your eagerness to thump your chest, you sound as if they have repeatedly trounced India. If they were that good, at least Pakistan would have used its military to take over IOK & not resorted to a guerella war in Kashmir. The fact is that Pak has tried 3 times to wrest Kashmir from India by conventional warfare & failed.

Then Pakistanis put a ``spin`` on the outcome of the war:

1)Indians are numerically superior, so we ``won`` because they did`nt take Lahore.

2)Horner & Yaeger et all say our PAF is great

3)India took E.Pakistan because it was a very uneven match

4) The US betrayed us when we needed them.

Let me counter those arguments

1) Get this straight in your head. India DOES NOT want Pakistan back. Nor does it covet any part of Pakistani real estate. Even, POK.

Yes, at the time of Partition, Indians were opposed to it. However, many Pakistanis have this paranoia (perpetuated by your military) that India wants to gobble up Pakistan. 50+ yrs have passed & the 2 countries have taken different paths. You will be happy to know that the dreaded concept of ``re-integration`` is just as unpalatable to Indians as it is for Pakistanis.

Granted India is no paradise. But think of it, why would Indians want to rule a country that has been unable to rule itself since its independance?! Jeeze, in 54 years (to the best of my knowlege--I could be wrong) NOT ONE Pakistani PM/President has relinquished power democratically. Lord knows India has its own problems--they dont want yours --thank you very much!! Taking over Pakistan is like eating a rotten piece of meat & dying of food poisoning.

You can thump your chest about Jinnah--but get real; in today`s Pakistan, he is an anachronism.

India opened a second front in 65, as a part of military strategy. You really think they wanted to annex Pakistan? Hah, if they did, they would have kept Bangladesh to themselves in 71. The whole objective of 65 was to wrest IOK. That DIDNT happen; despite the gallant PAF! So spin it any way you want; the bottom line wont change.

2) In the 550+ page book ``Every Man A Tiger``. Horner wrote ONE OR TWO SENTENCES about the PAF. Jeeze! You guys continue to harp about it like it was the whole topic of the book! Besides, he says PAF is India`s biggest nightmare. He DOESNT say Pakistan won the war or the IAF stinks!

Yaeger is an ultimate narcicisst. That doesnt mean he`s wrong. But the guy likes to praise everything he`s involved in. If he played such a big role in overseeing the PAF; surely he wont put it down. He`s not so complimentary about your Armuy or Navy. The guy is biased--not wrong; but biased.

3)In 71 India took over East Pakistan in 2 weeks. Did they get a drubbing on the Western front?! far from it! It took an entire World coalition more than 2 weeks to take over tiny Kuwait in the Gulf war. OK, maybe thats comparing apples to oranges. India`s objective in 71 was NEVER to annex West Pakistan.

Using a similar analogy, I guess Saddam Hussein can boast how the heroic Iraqi military frustrated the Coalitions attempts to annex Iraq. So Iraq won the war! Kuwait--heck the Iraqi army was hopelessly outnumbered by the combined strenght of some of the most powerful militaries in the world. So all that they could accomplish was to retake tiny Kuwait! Big deal; it was the bravery of Iraqi soldiers that prevented them from marching into Bagdad! I`m sure he`s saying that! Thats the power of spin doctoring:)

4) The main reason the US supplied some of its most advanced weapons to Pakistan was to fight COMMUNISM. Not use them against the largest democracy in the world. Pakistan just loooves taking US aid. After Israel & Egypt, Pakistan has recieved the most amount of aid from the US. As long as aid flows from the US, America is a friend. When it stops, Pakistan cries BETRAYAL! Like aid without conditions is an entitlement & a birthright--get real!

{{In the final assessment heroics do matter... ever see `Tin Cup` starring Kevin Costner and Don Johnson?}}

Yeah yeah:) Like the brave Polish cavalry charging the German Panzers! Big whoop.

Yes heroics matter; but its not the be all & end all. It takes a heck of a lot more than heroics to win a war!

Its like losing a tennis match & boasting ``did you see how my ace services blew the guy away! he did`nt stand a chance!!``.

Er--yoohoo moron, you LOST the match!! Remember!

OK, now I`m getting sick of this tu tu mein mein. This is not meant to change your mind or mine. You believe what you want to believe. There`s a joke in India ``if India killed everbody in Pakistan; except one person--that person will loudly proclaim Pakistan won the war; & believe it; like it was gospel truth!!``

PM

Have you been smoking funny cigarettes lately? Alas! if you could only say these things before the tragedy in Afghanistan started happening.