A Letter Home
Terry Burns October 24, 2001
#355 Posted by mohajir on December 27, 2001 1:57:46 pm
Connecting terrorism`s dots
Arnaud de Borchgrave
Dec. 27, 2001
Washington Times
In an attempt to avoid embarrassing Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, and to pre-empt any Indian campaign to extend the war against terrorism to cover terrorist training camps in Pakistan, the White House announced Dec. 20 it was blocking the assets of Lashkar-e-Taiba (LET) which it described as ``a Kashmiri terrorist organization that has conducted a number of operations against Indian troops and civilian targets in Kashmir since 1993.``
That was once over very lightly. If truth be known, the facts behind LET are identical to Osama bin Laden`s al Qaeda`s organization. The terrorists are interchangeable between both organizations. They were all trained in al Qaeda`s camps and some of bin Laden`s Afghan Arabs have already found refuge among LET`s ranks in Kashmir. The White House`s new formulation calls LET ``a stateless sponsor of terrorism.`` But LET is also Pakistan-based and Pakistan-sanctioned.
LET`s ranks consist of Pakistanis, Afghans, and Arabs led by Pakistani cadres. Pakistan`s Inter-Services Intelligence agency oversees LET`s terrorist operations. Headquartered at Muridke outside Lahore, LET holds annual conclaves that are attended by serving and retired officers of ISI and the regular army, political leaders, and retired scientists of Pakistan`s nuclear establishment. LET`s terrorists are ``freedom fighters`` dedicated to ``the liberation of Indian-occupied Kashmir.`` Its political cover is called Marka-ud-Dawa-wal-Irshad (MDI), a fiercely anti-U.S. pseudo-religious, extremist organization.
LET`s last big meeting was held in Muridke April 13-15 and was attended by retired Gen. Hameed Gul, a former head of ISI and currently ``strategic adviser`` to Pakistan`s extremist religious parties; Retired Gen. Javed Nasir, another former ISI director general; Abdul Qadir Khan, the father of Pakistan`s nuclear bomb; Sultan Bashiruddin Mahmood, formerly with the Atomic Energy Commission and recently detained at the request of the U.S. for questioning about his meetings with Osama Bin Laden. The conference passed a resolution calling on its ``freedom fighters`` to capture Hindu temples, destroy the idols and hoist the flag of Islam on them.
ISI was tasked with ensuring that no journalists gained access to the meeting. But some did. The News reported on April 22 that LET ``operates six private military training camps in Pakistan and Kashmir where several thousand are given both military and religious education.`` The newspaper also reported that LET runs 2,200 recruiting offices across Pakistan and some two dozen ``launching camps along the Line of Control [LOC] in Kashmir,`` which makes it ``the biggest jihadi [holy warrior] network in Pakistan.``
No militant training center in Pakistan can operate without the consent of the army, now in power, and ISI, a state within a state whose chief reports only to Mr. Musharraf. Yet the government continues to be in a state of deep denial. Presidential spokesman Gen. Rashid Quereshi says, ``No group operating in Kashmir has any base in Pakistan.``
Mr. Musharraf is riding a terrorist tiger and is having trouble dismounting. Last May 18, Najam Sethi, the editor of ``Friday Times,`` an authoritative weekly journal, summed up the president`s dilemma: ``The Musharraf model seeks to covertly ally with the jihadi groups while overtly keeping the mainstream religious parties out of the power loop. This is to enhance and sustain its covert external agenda, while internally maintaining an overtly moderate anti-fundamentalist stance for the comfort of the international community whose economic support is critical to Pakistan`s financial viability.``
The terrorist attack against the Indian Parliament Dec. 13 was almost certainly the work of Jaish-e-Mohammed (Soldiers of the Prophet), another Pakistan-based terrorist organization. This writer found its slogans painted in towns and villages throughout the Pakistani tribal belt last week, to wit: ``Jaish-e-Mohammed and al Qaeda are Bubbling Blood Brothers`` and ``For Commando Training, Contact Jaish-e-Mohammed.`` The motive for the attack was most probably an attempt to disrupt the budding U.S.-Pakistani alliance and isolate Mr. Musharraf.
After ditching Taliban, it becomes increasingly harder for Mr. Musharraf to crack down on those who would Talibanize Pakistan. In fact, he released from detention the No. 1 religious extremist firebrand, Fazrul Rehman.
Mr. Musharraf is now caught between a rock and four hard places — Afghanistan where the anti-Pakistani, pro-Indian Northern Alliance holds the key government positions in the new coalition under Hamid Karzai; a hostile India on the edge of retaliatory action; a disloyal ISI; and a belligerent extremist clergy.
Despite the appointment of a Musharraf loyalist as the new head of ISI when U.S. bombing started last October, the powerful agency has not been responding to the president`s pro-American policies. One regional ISI general even went so far as to rattle tribal chiefs by telling them Pakistan would be next in America`s crosshairs after the defeat of Taliban. The secret organization continues to undermine him at every turn. The country`s principal political leaders are fearful of ISI. They draw the initials with their fingers in the air when the subject comes out lest they be heard by ubiquitous bugs. And they say nothing short of a top-to-bottom reform of ISI, followed by accountability to a yet-to-be-created national security council of civilian and military leaders, will bring the agency back to its proper place in the body politic.
The Taliban infrastructure in Pakistan emerged unscathed from Taliban`s defeat in Afghanistan. While ISI is officially cooperating with the U.S. in hunting down Taliban`s deposed leaders, senior Taliban officials are now resting comfortably in their second homes in Quetta and Peshawar, the two frontier towns where they had parked their families when the bombing started. One has even given an interview to a British newspaper. Another has given a ``religious lecture`` at the madrassa — the ``University for the Education of Truth`` — where he graduated in the town of Khattak. ISI is doubtless aware of these activities. But is Mr. Musharraf?
Belatedly, over the Christmas weekend, Mr. Musharraf decided to freeze the accounts of LET and Umma Tamee-e-Nau (UTN), the group the U.S. believes passed nuclear weapons data to Osama bin Laden. The LET chief then resigned. It is to be hoped that a thorough housecleaning of ISI is next on Mr. Musharraf`s must-do list as he returns from a weeklong state visit to China.
Arnaud de Borchgrave is editor at large of The Washington Times and of United Press International
http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/20011227-79790204.htm
Arnaud de Borchgrave
Dec. 27, 2001
Washington Times
In an attempt to avoid embarrassing Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf, and to pre-empt any Indian campaign to extend the war against terrorism to cover terrorist training camps in Pakistan, the White House announced Dec. 20 it was blocking the assets of Lashkar-e-Taiba (LET) which it described as ``a Kashmiri terrorist organization that has conducted a number of operations against Indian troops and civilian targets in Kashmir since 1993.``
That was once over very lightly. If truth be known, the facts behind LET are identical to Osama bin Laden`s al Qaeda`s organization. The terrorists are interchangeable between both organizations. They were all trained in al Qaeda`s camps and some of bin Laden`s Afghan Arabs have already found refuge among LET`s ranks in Kashmir. The White House`s new formulation calls LET ``a stateless sponsor of terrorism.`` But LET is also Pakistan-based and Pakistan-sanctioned.
LET`s ranks consist of Pakistanis, Afghans, and Arabs led by Pakistani cadres. Pakistan`s Inter-Services Intelligence agency oversees LET`s terrorist operations. Headquartered at Muridke outside Lahore, LET holds annual conclaves that are attended by serving and retired officers of ISI and the regular army, political leaders, and retired scientists of Pakistan`s nuclear establishment. LET`s terrorists are ``freedom fighters`` dedicated to ``the liberation of Indian-occupied Kashmir.`` Its political cover is called Marka-ud-Dawa-wal-Irshad (MDI), a fiercely anti-U.S. pseudo-religious, extremist organization.
LET`s last big meeting was held in Muridke April 13-15 and was attended by retired Gen. Hameed Gul, a former head of ISI and currently ``strategic adviser`` to Pakistan`s extremist religious parties; Retired Gen. Javed Nasir, another former ISI director general; Abdul Qadir Khan, the father of Pakistan`s nuclear bomb; Sultan Bashiruddin Mahmood, formerly with the Atomic Energy Commission and recently detained at the request of the U.S. for questioning about his meetings with Osama Bin Laden. The conference passed a resolution calling on its ``freedom fighters`` to capture Hindu temples, destroy the idols and hoist the flag of Islam on them.
ISI was tasked with ensuring that no journalists gained access to the meeting. But some did. The News reported on April 22 that LET ``operates six private military training camps in Pakistan and Kashmir where several thousand are given both military and religious education.`` The newspaper also reported that LET runs 2,200 recruiting offices across Pakistan and some two dozen ``launching camps along the Line of Control [LOC] in Kashmir,`` which makes it ``the biggest jihadi [holy warrior] network in Pakistan.``
No militant training center in Pakistan can operate without the consent of the army, now in power, and ISI, a state within a state whose chief reports only to Mr. Musharraf. Yet the government continues to be in a state of deep denial. Presidential spokesman Gen. Rashid Quereshi says, ``No group operating in Kashmir has any base in Pakistan.``
Mr. Musharraf is riding a terrorist tiger and is having trouble dismounting. Last May 18, Najam Sethi, the editor of ``Friday Times,`` an authoritative weekly journal, summed up the president`s dilemma: ``The Musharraf model seeks to covertly ally with the jihadi groups while overtly keeping the mainstream religious parties out of the power loop. This is to enhance and sustain its covert external agenda, while internally maintaining an overtly moderate anti-fundamentalist stance for the comfort of the international community whose economic support is critical to Pakistan`s financial viability.``
The terrorist attack against the Indian Parliament Dec. 13 was almost certainly the work of Jaish-e-Mohammed (Soldiers of the Prophet), another Pakistan-based terrorist organization. This writer found its slogans painted in towns and villages throughout the Pakistani tribal belt last week, to wit: ``Jaish-e-Mohammed and al Qaeda are Bubbling Blood Brothers`` and ``For Commando Training, Contact Jaish-e-Mohammed.`` The motive for the attack was most probably an attempt to disrupt the budding U.S.-Pakistani alliance and isolate Mr. Musharraf.
After ditching Taliban, it becomes increasingly harder for Mr. Musharraf to crack down on those who would Talibanize Pakistan. In fact, he released from detention the No. 1 religious extremist firebrand, Fazrul Rehman.
Mr. Musharraf is now caught between a rock and four hard places — Afghanistan where the anti-Pakistani, pro-Indian Northern Alliance holds the key government positions in the new coalition under Hamid Karzai; a hostile India on the edge of retaliatory action; a disloyal ISI; and a belligerent extremist clergy.
Despite the appointment of a Musharraf loyalist as the new head of ISI when U.S. bombing started last October, the powerful agency has not been responding to the president`s pro-American policies. One regional ISI general even went so far as to rattle tribal chiefs by telling them Pakistan would be next in America`s crosshairs after the defeat of Taliban. The secret organization continues to undermine him at every turn. The country`s principal political leaders are fearful of ISI. They draw the initials with their fingers in the air when the subject comes out lest they be heard by ubiquitous bugs. And they say nothing short of a top-to-bottom reform of ISI, followed by accountability to a yet-to-be-created national security council of civilian and military leaders, will bring the agency back to its proper place in the body politic.
The Taliban infrastructure in Pakistan emerged unscathed from Taliban`s defeat in Afghanistan. While ISI is officially cooperating with the U.S. in hunting down Taliban`s deposed leaders, senior Taliban officials are now resting comfortably in their second homes in Quetta and Peshawar, the two frontier towns where they had parked their families when the bombing started. One has even given an interview to a British newspaper. Another has given a ``religious lecture`` at the madrassa — the ``University for the Education of Truth`` — where he graduated in the town of Khattak. ISI is doubtless aware of these activities. But is Mr. Musharraf?
Belatedly, over the Christmas weekend, Mr. Musharraf decided to freeze the accounts of LET and Umma Tamee-e-Nau (UTN), the group the U.S. believes passed nuclear weapons data to Osama bin Laden. The LET chief then resigned. It is to be hoped that a thorough housecleaning of ISI is next on Mr. Musharraf`s must-do list as he returns from a weeklong state visit to China.
Arnaud de Borchgrave is editor at large of The Washington Times and of United Press International
http://www.washingtontimes.com/commentary/20011227-79790204.htm
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#354 Posted by Trillium on November 16, 2001 12:20:59 pm
Stuka - I`ve usually enjoyed the democratic tone your posts. You`ll get over it, I`m sure.
``Um, did he post a picture somewhere?? How do you guys know this guy is a white guy? Oh right, no one could even IMAGINE the absolute temerity of a black guy to criticize us like this??``
Farzana turns Chowk into a cheap-shot shooting gallery and then whines like hell when it`s time for her own medicine. Her selective little gee-hads are like others around the world: when the attacked start shooting back, it`s ``atrocity`` and ``genocide``. At least she can`t be accused of using smart-bombs.
#353 Posted by jay on November 10, 2001 12:37:59 pm
from toi of today
ISI is treacherous, Bhutto warns West
YDNEY: Former prime minister Benazir Bhutto has cautioned the West against relying on Pakistan`s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) in the anti-terrorism war, saying it is a ``treacherous`` organisation.
``When I was the prime minister of Pakistan, I found ISI to be a state within a state,`` Bhutto tells Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) TV`s Foreign Correspondent programme that hit out at ISI.
``During my tenure as prime minister, we had instances of ISI officials approaching parliamentarians and asking them to defect from my party and also asking them to vote against me,`` says Bhutto, who is chief of the Pakistan People`s Party (PPP).
Bhutto, who lives in self-imposed exile in London and Dubai, is stated to be in Washington to warn the U.S. about the ``real intentions`` of Pakistan`s premier state intelligence organization.
Pakistan has emerged as a leading ally in the U.S.-led war on terrorism in Afghanistan to flush out terrorist suspect Osama bin Laden.
Her assertion is supported by the findings of the Australian current affairs programme that quoted Pakistan Army sources as saying when President Pervez Musharraf asked ISI bosses to persuade the Taliban to surrender bin Laden, they acted to the contrary.
The ISI officials are believed to have rushed to advise the Taliban on ways to strengthen their defences against the then inevitable American attacks and ``tough out.``
ISI is treacherous, Bhutto warns West
YDNEY: Former prime minister Benazir Bhutto has cautioned the West against relying on Pakistan`s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) in the anti-terrorism war, saying it is a ``treacherous`` organisation.
``When I was the prime minister of Pakistan, I found ISI to be a state within a state,`` Bhutto tells Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC) TV`s Foreign Correspondent programme that hit out at ISI.
``During my tenure as prime minister, we had instances of ISI officials approaching parliamentarians and asking them to defect from my party and also asking them to vote against me,`` says Bhutto, who is chief of the Pakistan People`s Party (PPP).
Bhutto, who lives in self-imposed exile in London and Dubai, is stated to be in Washington to warn the U.S. about the ``real intentions`` of Pakistan`s premier state intelligence organization.
Pakistan has emerged as a leading ally in the U.S.-led war on terrorism in Afghanistan to flush out terrorist suspect Osama bin Laden.
Her assertion is supported by the findings of the Australian current affairs programme that quoted Pakistan Army sources as saying when President Pervez Musharraf asked ISI bosses to persuade the Taliban to surrender bin Laden, they acted to the contrary.
The ISI officials are believed to have rushed to advise the Taliban on ways to strengthen their defences against the then inevitable American attacks and ``tough out.``
#352 Posted by scout on November 9, 2001 2:48:47 pm
Suxena #346, ``stop throwing hissy fits, or if you must, stop stalking me from board to board. shoo off.``
whoa! talk about delusions of grandeur. meray hee alfaz meray khilaaf?
nice try beti, better luck next time.
ylh #350,
ok :)
whoa! talk about delusions of grandeur. meray hee alfaz meray khilaaf?
nice try beti, better luck next time.
ylh #350,
ok :)
#351 Posted by soysauce on November 9, 2001 2:48:47 pm
#351 ylh
``That was hilarious.``
Really?
How about these:
(1) Why does a paki kemalist wish there were more hindus and christians?
For target practice.
(2)What is a famous paki kemalist saying?
A hindu a day keeps the mullah at bay.
Funnier, no?
``That was hilarious.``
Really?
How about these:
(1) Why does a paki kemalist wish there were more hindus and christians?
For target practice.
(2)What is a famous paki kemalist saying?
A hindu a day keeps the mullah at bay.
Funnier, no?
#350 Posted by Lajwanti on November 9, 2001 10:56:08 am
Pervez sought `hawk` Advani`s aid to meet Atal in New York?
MANINI CHATTERJEE
NEW DELHI, November 09, 01:33
So keen was President Pervez Musharraf for a meeting with Prime Minister Vajpayee in New York that he even sought the help of Union Home Minister L.K. Advani, to persuade Vajpayee on the issue.
The Pakistan establishment, which has openly accused Advani of being the ``hidden hand`` behind the failure of the Agra Summit, turned to the same ``hawk`` to effect a reconciliation, highly placed sources revealed to TheNewspaperToday.
A few days before Vajpayee left for his three-nation voyage, the Pakistan High Commissioner to India, Ashraf Jehangir Qazi, met home minister Advani and asked him to put in a word in favour of a Vajpayee-Musharraf meeting, sources said. The home minister is learnt to have said that he would convey Pakistan’s request but held out little hope that a meeting would be possible.
The Pakistan High Commissioner’s request to Advani, done on the behest of his leader and government, stems from General Musharraf’s belief that Advani is the real hardliner in the government who has stymied efforts of ``dove`` Vajpayee to mend ties with Pakistan.
At the Agra Summit in July this year, the Pakistan side blamed Advani for changing the final draft declaration and including the ``cross-border terrorism`` clause. Later, addressing a press conference in Islamabad, General Musharraf made the same charge and made no secret of the fact that the so-called ``hidden hand`` belonged to India’s Home Minister.
The Pakistanis, sources said, believe that only if Advani gives the red signal for talks can a high-level dialogue between the two countries resume. The Pakistanis are not entirely incorrect in this assessment because it was at Advani’s initiative that General Musharraf was invited to India last May.
The sudden decision to invite Musharraf for talks (announced alongside the decision to withdraw cease-fire in Jammu & Kashmir on May 23) was taken at a private luncheon meeting attended by Prime Minister Vajpayee, Home Minister Advani, and External Affairs Minister Jaswant Singh.
At that meeting, it was Advani who first made the suggestion of inviting Musharraf to Delhi and this, after some discussion, was accepted by the Prime Minister, sources said.
The Pakistanis were well aware of this sequence of events and therefore turned to Advani this time round. However, following the failure of the Agra Summit and particularly the remarks made by General Musharraf at and after Agra, Prime Minister Vajpayee himself has turned hawkish on the question of India-Pakistan dialogue.
He, like Advani, is now firm that talks should not take place till Pakistan gives up its policy of proxy war, sources added.
RELATED NEWS
» No chance of meeting between Vajpayee, Musharraf in NY
» Pervez-Atal meet in New York? Yes, no, maybe?
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#349 Posted by ylh on November 8, 2001 4:09:08 pm
Ali1
That was hilarious.
But really I dont own Urbanus. It is part of Urbanus group, I am just their account executive for the institute and their web development company Macroactive.
-Yasser
That was hilarious.
But really I dont own Urbanus. It is part of Urbanus group, I am just their account executive for the institute and their web development company Macroactive.
-Yasser
#348 Posted by Gowardhan on November 8, 2001 2:51:52 pm
70000 + 2 killed in Kashmir
http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/08/welcome.htm
Grenade kills woman in Kashmir, wounds child: SRINAGAR, Nov 08:
A woman was killed and five others, including a one-year-old child, were wounded today when Mujahideen threw a grenade in a street in Srinagar, police said. No group has claimed responsibility for the attack. (Reuters) (Posted @ 12:45 PST)
http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/08/welcome.htm
Grenade kills woman in Kashmir, wounds child: SRINAGAR, Nov 08:
A woman was killed and five others, including a one-year-old child, were wounded today when Mujahideen threw a grenade in a street in Srinagar, police said. No group has claimed responsibility for the attack. (Reuters) (Posted @ 12:45 PST)
#347 Posted by ylh on November 8, 2001 2:51:52 pm
Scout
cut me some slack sistah ... Just tryin to make an honest buck.
cut me some slack sistah ... Just tryin to make an honest buck.
#346 Posted by ali1 on November 8, 2001 2:51:52 pm
Reply # 335 ylh
[``URBANUS TECHNICAL INSTITUTE``]
What kind of a name is this? URB-ANUS INSTITUTE? haniji? Are insulting your Arab brethren? Change it to ATALANUS or BAPUANUS or RAMANUS. ok?
[``URBANUS TECHNICAL INSTITUTE``]
What kind of a name is this? URB-ANUS INSTITUTE? haniji? Are insulting your Arab brethren? Change it to ATALANUS or BAPUANUS or RAMANUS. ok?
#345 Posted by Bijli on November 8, 2001 2:51:52 pm
Vietnamese & thais due to poverty & lack of resourceses have PORK in almost all there dietry recipies.The Thai,the Cambodian The Vietnamese,Filipino,Burmese ,
#344 Posted by rsaxena on November 8, 2001 2:51:52 pm
Re: scout #343
stop throwing hissy fits, or if you must, stop stalking me from board to board. shoo off.
stop throwing hissy fits, or if you must, stop stalking me from board to board. shoo off.
#343 Posted by saminashah on November 8, 2001 10:40:35 am
chowkies,
So i just got here...what happened? (sitcom laughter) Does this mean that ylh and Sadna have reached a detente?
A party at the Edison Dunkin Donuts? Is that the one by the mom and pop Thai restaurant? Btw, that Thai place serves the best chutputta kanna I have eaten. If you guys haven`t been, do go.
The last time I went to this Thai place on Raritan Ave, my brother and mother were with me. We went in to the restaurant to survey the usual scene; lots of Desis, Asians and Americans eating slowly and very quietly. Americans mainly asking for water. We have a delish and spicy meal. My brother goes up to pay the bill. The owner, an elderly nani type is working the cash register. She asks my brother, ``How was the food?``
He responds,``It was wonderful. Really spicy.``
She says,`` Ooohh you Indians. You say `Make it spicy!` We make it spicy and then you cry...you cry...``
I`ll be back next month.
regards
So i just got here...what happened? (sitcom laughter) Does this mean that ylh and Sadna have reached a detente?
A party at the Edison Dunkin Donuts? Is that the one by the mom and pop Thai restaurant? Btw, that Thai place serves the best chutputta kanna I have eaten. If you guys haven`t been, do go.
The last time I went to this Thai place on Raritan Ave, my brother and mother were with me. We went in to the restaurant to survey the usual scene; lots of Desis, Asians and Americans eating slowly and very quietly. Americans mainly asking for water. We have a delish and spicy meal. My brother goes up to pay the bill. The owner, an elderly nani type is working the cash register. She asks my brother, ``How was the food?``
He responds,``It was wonderful. Really spicy.``
She says,`` Ooohh you Indians. You say `Make it spicy!` We make it spicy and then you cry...you cry...``
I`ll be back next month.
regards
#342 Posted by scout on November 8, 2001 1:48:51 am
ylh #335,
was that personal business advertisement necessary on Chowk? there are classified ads in newspapers for that.
tum kab baray hogay?
was that personal business advertisement necessary on Chowk? there are classified ads in newspapers for that.
tum kab baray hogay?
#341 Posted by scout on November 7, 2001 8:01:29 pm
Suxena #339,
Listen numbskull, you`re the one who started this Bellvue bakwaas. Why don`t you give yourself a slap in the face before bugging me.
God you`re an annoying moron.
Listen numbskull, you`re the one who started this Bellvue bakwaas. Why don`t you give yourself a slap in the face before bugging me.
God you`re an annoying moron.
#340 Posted by rsaxena on November 7, 2001 11:53:48 am
Re: Stuka
``You are one evil genius;) Is B_M coming back to the east coast anytime soon?``
I don`t know what you are insinuating, but I`m just a bystander here who happens to keep in touch with b_m. ahem.
``You are one evil genius;) Is B_M coming back to the east coast anytime soon?``
I don`t know what you are insinuating, but I`m just a bystander here who happens to keep in touch with b_m. ahem.
#339 Posted by stuka on November 7, 2001 10:28:46 am
RSAXENA:
You are one evil genius;) Is B_M coming back to the east coast anytime soon?
You are one evil genius;) Is B_M coming back to the east coast anytime soon?
#338 Posted by rsaxena on November 7, 2001 12:07:36 am
RE: ylh
``laugh as long as you find my statement funny, and then when reality starts hitting home, start crying... :)``
you`re a real tube light
``laugh as long as you find my statement funny, and then when reality starts hitting home, start crying... :)``
you`re a real tube light
#337 Posted by rsaxena on November 7, 2001 12:07:36 am
Re: macchar
``sure, aur tum Niagra Falls say kood jao hamesha kay liye.``
dear, bellvue foran chali jao...yeh bakwaas pardh ke lagta hai ke tumhari haalat aur kharaab ho rahi hai...
``sure, aur tum Niagra Falls say kood jao hamesha kay liye.``
dear, bellvue foran chali jao...yeh bakwaas pardh ke lagta hai ke tumhari haalat aur kharaab ho rahi hai...
#336 Posted by scout on November 6, 2001 7:54:23 pm
Raveena #331, ``glad you appreciate it...now follow my advice and Bellvue hospital me bharti ho jao do mehne ke liye``
sure, aur tum Niagra Falls say kood jao hamesha kay liye.
sure, aur tum Niagra Falls say kood jao hamesha kay liye.
#335 Posted by scout on November 6, 2001 7:54:23 pm
Zafar #308,
come on, stop thinking for once, see how good it feels, you`ll never go back to thinking again. guaranteed.
Subroto #329,
that was pretty damn funny :)
come on, stop thinking for once, see how good it feels, you`ll never go back to thinking again. guaranteed.
Subroto #329,
that was pretty damn funny :)
#334 Posted by ylh on November 6, 2001 6:09:51 pm
rsaxena,
laugh as long as you find my statement funny, and then when reality starts hitting home, start crying... :)
Sincerely
YLH
laugh as long as you find my statement funny, and then when reality starts hitting home, start crying... :)
Sincerely
YLH
#333 Posted by ylh on November 6, 2001 2:38:43 pm
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College Degree Not Good Enough?
Wanna Give Technology a try?
· A+& Network+
· MCSE
· CCNA Certification (Cisco Systems)
· Basic Internet/Computer Training
Learn the Skills and then learn to market yourself in the competitive Tech-Business environment. Earn between 60K to 100K salaries.
Contact:
Yasser Hamdani (Account Executive)
@ (908) 282 7703 (ext 103)
URBANUS TECHNICAL INSTITUTE
http://www.guidemycareer.com
125 Broad St. 7th Floor
Elizabeth, NJ, 07201
#332 Posted by AAmir on November 6, 2001 2:38:43 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#331 Posted by stuka on November 6, 2001 2:38:43 pm
Subroto:
LOL, DUDE this was hilarious, been a while since I was laughing so hard on a Monday morning.
LOL, DUDE this was hilarious, been a while since I was laughing so hard on a Monday morning.
#330 Posted by rsaxena on November 6, 2001 2:38:43 pm
Re: ylh
``That you actually keep in touch with a person like Bhartiya Musalman is indicative of your mental calibre, saxena babu.``
oh my..i don`t know whether to laugh or cry...
``That you actually keep in touch with a person like Bhartiya Musalman is indicative of your mental calibre, saxena babu.``
oh my..i don`t know whether to laugh or cry...
#329 Posted by rsaxena on November 6, 2001 2:38:43 pm
Re: scout
``How sweet of you to ask about my health.
I know you can`t help worrying about me, but please try not to. I am feeling better now.``
glad you appreciate it...now follow my advice and Bellvue hospital me bharti ho jao do mehne ke liye
``How sweet of you to ask about my health.
I know you can`t help worrying about me, but please try not to. I am feeling better now.``
glad you appreciate it...now follow my advice and Bellvue hospital me bharti ho jao do mehne ke liye
#328 Posted by sadna on November 6, 2001 10:39:43 am
Subroto : You left out the life-threatening illness and long-lost sibling scenarios (why Bachchan never figured out his close resemblence to Shashi Kapoor ahead of time is a real mystery to me)
I know, I know. Masala Hindi picture ke bajaaye kya mila `` Purv ghoshit karyakram hum nahi dikhaa pa rahe hain`` I deeply regret all that wasted popcorn, the esteemed audience may kindly swtich to WWF instead?
#327 Posted by subroto on November 6, 2001 2:45:54 am
RE Scout #306 links to the big fight
- www.chowk.com/saddo_n_yasso_live
I cancelled all my appointments and the cable TV subscription all because I was eagerly awaiting the webcast of the big fight - yeh to dokha hai.
After all that buildup with the dialogues
``... I shall have my vengeance.``
``Tell me the time and place, if you are so serious about getting rid of me.``
``my vengeance will come at a time of my own choosing not yours``
``I plan to bring my brother and a baseball bat(or something similar). You bring your Jersey city friends, your chowk associates are all eunuchs ``
``Chilla. Aur chilla. Tumhari awaz kiseeko bhee sunayi nahin degi. Ab tumhe Bhagwaan bhi bachaa nahin sakta. ``
``Kuttay, kameenay. Main tumhe jaan se maar daloongi. ``
``Tum jaise gandi naali ke keede.... ``
``khabardaar joe mujhay haat bhee lagaya ``
OK maybe the last four weren`t there, but that was the general tone. Yeh picture to flop nikal gayi!
Or maybe this is just the interval, all those shrill pitched interchanges seem to getting changed - do we get to see ylh and sadhna cooing ``hahn yehi pyar hai``.
(NOTE to ylh and sadhna : Is khichai ka bura nahi manna doston.)
Phir to yeh sare dialogues change ho jayengay, phor exzhample
``Hatoe naa, log kiya kahengay``
``Aaj mein bahut khush hoon``
``Main tumharay bina mar jaa-oongi.``
Aur phir - ``Main tumhare bacche ki maan banne waali hun``
The impact on the family -``Kya issi din ke liye tujhe paal pos ke bada kiya tha? Nikalja mere ghar se. Tum mere liye mar chuke ho. ``
and ``Thairo! Yeh shaadi nahin ho sakti !``
But life will go on - ``Aaj Pinky ka janam din hai``
aur problem bhi ayengay -``arre isse to tez bukhar hai``
emotion bhi hai - ``Tum mujhe galat samajh rahi ho....kash mein sachchai bata sakta``
Vill vile villians & vamps be far behind (if ylh is our hero then this must be rsax..)
``Ab tumhari maa hamare kabze mein hai. Batao heeray kahan chhupaye tunay..``
and where was the vamp
``Mera nam hai shabnam, pyar se log mujhe SHABBO kehate hai. Tumhara naam kya hai!``
But herolal has to triumph in the end
``Chun Chun ke maaroonga, ek-ek ko chun chun ke maroonga ``
but before the deed ``Rukjao! kanoon ko apne haath mein mat lo``
jate jate FBI to ylh ``Pulis ko tum jaise naujawanon par naaz hai.``
THE END
and as for me, its back to the salt mines....
- www.chowk.com/saddo_n_yasso_live
I cancelled all my appointments and the cable TV subscription all because I was eagerly awaiting the webcast of the big fight - yeh to dokha hai.
After all that buildup with the dialogues
``... I shall have my vengeance.``
``Tell me the time and place, if you are so serious about getting rid of me.``
``my vengeance will come at a time of my own choosing not yours``
``I plan to bring my brother and a baseball bat(or something similar). You bring your Jersey city friends, your chowk associates are all eunuchs ``
``Chilla. Aur chilla. Tumhari awaz kiseeko bhee sunayi nahin degi. Ab tumhe Bhagwaan bhi bachaa nahin sakta. ``
``Kuttay, kameenay. Main tumhe jaan se maar daloongi. ``
``Tum jaise gandi naali ke keede.... ``
``khabardaar joe mujhay haat bhee lagaya ``
OK maybe the last four weren`t there, but that was the general tone. Yeh picture to flop nikal gayi!
Or maybe this is just the interval, all those shrill pitched interchanges seem to getting changed - do we get to see ylh and sadhna cooing ``hahn yehi pyar hai``.
(NOTE to ylh and sadhna : Is khichai ka bura nahi manna doston.)
Phir to yeh sare dialogues change ho jayengay, phor exzhample
``Hatoe naa, log kiya kahengay``
``Aaj mein bahut khush hoon``
``Main tumharay bina mar jaa-oongi.``
Aur phir - ``Main tumhare bacche ki maan banne waali hun``
The impact on the family -``Kya issi din ke liye tujhe paal pos ke bada kiya tha? Nikalja mere ghar se. Tum mere liye mar chuke ho. ``
and ``Thairo! Yeh shaadi nahin ho sakti !``
But life will go on - ``Aaj Pinky ka janam din hai``
aur problem bhi ayengay -``arre isse to tez bukhar hai``
emotion bhi hai - ``Tum mujhe galat samajh rahi ho....kash mein sachchai bata sakta``
Vill vile villians & vamps be far behind (if ylh is our hero then this must be rsax..)
``Ab tumhari maa hamare kabze mein hai. Batao heeray kahan chhupaye tunay..``
and where was the vamp
``Mera nam hai shabnam, pyar se log mujhe SHABBO kehate hai. Tumhara naam kya hai!``
But herolal has to triumph in the end
``Chun Chun ke maaroonga, ek-ek ko chun chun ke maroonga ``
but before the deed ``Rukjao! kanoon ko apne haath mein mat lo``
jate jate FBI to ylh ``Pulis ko tum jaise naujawanon par naaz hai.``
THE END
and as for me, its back to the salt mines....
#326 Posted by ZafarA on November 6, 2001 2:45:54 am
Reply Scout # 327
``You think too much. And as far as I`m concerned, I`ve been doing too much thinking during the day to even bother thinking about what I write on Chowk, or what others write. So, in a nutshell, I refuse to think about what you were thinking when you wrote that post, and what you think I should think about your query at the end...So let`s quit thinking while we`re ahead.``
No no no no no no no!
I claim the right to think, on demand and without apology.
Zafar
PS Ha! I THOUGHT so.
``You think too much. And as far as I`m concerned, I`ve been doing too much thinking during the day to even bother thinking about what I write on Chowk, or what others write. So, in a nutshell, I refuse to think about what you were thinking when you wrote that post, and what you think I should think about your query at the end...So let`s quit thinking while we`re ahead.``
No no no no no no no!
I claim the right to think, on demand and without apology.
Zafar
PS Ha! I THOUGHT so.
#325 Posted by scout on November 5, 2001 8:44:50 pm
Zafar #308,
You think too much. And as far as I`m concerned, I`ve been doing too much thinking during the day to even bother thinking about what I write on Chowk, or what others write. So, in a nutshell, I refuse to think about what you were thinking when you wrote that post, and what you think I should think about your query at the end.
So let`s quit thinking while we`re ahead.
I hope Chowk editors think wisely and not post this interact.
You think too much. And as far as I`m concerned, I`ve been doing too much thinking during the day to even bother thinking about what I write on Chowk, or what others write. So, in a nutshell, I refuse to think about what you were thinking when you wrote that post, and what you think I should think about your query at the end.
So let`s quit thinking while we`re ahead.
I hope Chowk editors think wisely and not post this interact.
#324 Posted by scout on November 5, 2001 8:44:50 pm
Stuka #320,
Yeah man, can`t tell you how disappointed I am.
I hate it when people make up. What`s the fun in that?
Suxena #313,
How sweet of you to ask about my health.
I know you can`t help worrying about me, but please try not to. I am feeling better now.
It was the sugar high from the Halloween candy I stole from my cousins. It`s almost all gone.
Yeah man, can`t tell you how disappointed I am.
I hate it when people make up. What`s the fun in that?
Suxena #313,
How sweet of you to ask about my health.
I know you can`t help worrying about me, but please try not to. I am feeling better now.
It was the sugar high from the Halloween candy I stole from my cousins. It`s almost all gone.
#323 Posted by ylh on November 5, 2001 7:24:43 pm
That you actually keep in touch with a person like Bhartiya Musalman is indicative of your mental calibre, saxena babu.
#322 Posted by Sadhna on November 5, 2001 7:24:43 pm
Reply #: 322
soysauce
#309 Zafar
Hi Zafar, something totally unrelated.
In her most recent rant Varsha Bhosle writes
Soysauce,Sweetie;)
I also heard that Varsha -Varsey (i.e.FARZANA)are bossom buddy too.While you are at it could you PLZ.confirm that too.Its very important
soysauce
#309 Zafar
Hi Zafar, something totally unrelated.
In her most recent rant Varsha Bhosle writes
Soysauce,Sweetie;)
I also heard that Varsha -Varsey (i.e.FARZANA)are bossom buddy too.While you are at it could you PLZ.confirm that too.Its very important
#321 Posted by soysauce on November 5, 2001 5:41:00 pm
#309 Zafar
Hi Zafar, something totally unrelated.
In her most recent rant Varsha Bhosle writes,
``The question that vexes most of us is, do all Muslims support Khilafat...? Naaah, bull. For instance, Aamir Khan, who backed Sarfarosh so solidly, can`t possibly be an Islamist; and I can`t even imagine Dr Abdul Kalam getting into a fit over ``our Pakistani brothers``. I know too many Muslims who are Indians first and foremost. Too, the Islamic Council of Australia has just declared: ``We don`t take any orders from overseas calling us to war, it`s just not acceptable anyone here would even think about having anything called a holy war in Australia.`` (Zafar, now I know why we are friends :-).) Nonetheless, at least in India, I do believe that the live-and-let-live kind of Muslims are a minuscule minority. The rest are the reason why Malegaon is still burning.``
Could this Zafar be you? If you do know Ms Bhosle personally perhaps you could persuade her to submit some of her rants here so they could be taken apart.
Hi Zafar, something totally unrelated.
In her most recent rant Varsha Bhosle writes,
``The question that vexes most of us is, do all Muslims support Khilafat...? Naaah, bull. For instance, Aamir Khan, who backed Sarfarosh so solidly, can`t possibly be an Islamist; and I can`t even imagine Dr Abdul Kalam getting into a fit over ``our Pakistani brothers``. I know too many Muslims who are Indians first and foremost. Too, the Islamic Council of Australia has just declared: ``We don`t take any orders from overseas calling us to war, it`s just not acceptable anyone here would even think about having anything called a holy war in Australia.`` (Zafar, now I know why we are friends :-).) Nonetheless, at least in India, I do believe that the live-and-let-live kind of Muslims are a minuscule minority. The rest are the reason why Malegaon is still burning.``
Could this Zafar be you? If you do know Ms Bhosle personally perhaps you could persuade her to submit some of her rants here so they could be taken apart.
#320 Posted by rsaxena on November 5, 2001 5:40:49 pm
Dear all
bharatiya_musalman sends his best regards to all of you....he hopes to be gracing chowk with his presence in the near future
bharatiya_musalman sends his best regards to all of you....he hopes to be gracing chowk with his presence in the near future
#319 Posted by soysauce on November 5, 2001 5:40:49 pm
#309 Zafar
Hi Zafar, something totally unrelated.
In her most recent rant Varsha Bhosle writes,
``The question that vexes most of us is, do all Muslims support Khilafat...? Naaah, bull. For instance, Aamir Khan, who backed Sarfarosh so solidly, can`t possibly be an Islamist; and I can`t even imagine Dr Abdul Kalam getting into a fit over ``our Pakistani brothers``. I know too many Muslims who are Indians first and foremost. Too, the Islamic Council of Australia has just declared: ``We don`t take any orders from overseas calling us to war, it`s just not acceptable anyone here would even think about having anything called a holy war in Australia.`` (Zafar, now I know why we are friends :-).) Nonetheless, at least in India, I do believe that the live-and-let-live kind of Muslims are a minuscule minority. The rest are the reason why Malegaon is still burning.``
Could this Zafar be you? If you do know Ms Bhosle personally perhaps you could persuade her to submit some of her rants here so they could be taken apart.
Hi Zafar, something totally unrelated.
In her most recent rant Varsha Bhosle writes,
``The question that vexes most of us is, do all Muslims support Khilafat...? Naaah, bull. For instance, Aamir Khan, who backed Sarfarosh so solidly, can`t possibly be an Islamist; and I can`t even imagine Dr Abdul Kalam getting into a fit over ``our Pakistani brothers``. I know too many Muslims who are Indians first and foremost. Too, the Islamic Council of Australia has just declared: ``We don`t take any orders from overseas calling us to war, it`s just not acceptable anyone here would even think about having anything called a holy war in Australia.`` (Zafar, now I know why we are friends :-).) Nonetheless, at least in India, I do believe that the live-and-let-live kind of Muslims are a minuscule minority. The rest are the reason why Malegaon is still burning.``
Could this Zafar be you? If you do know Ms Bhosle personally perhaps you could persuade her to submit some of her rants here so they could be taken apart.
#318 Posted by stuka on November 5, 2001 5:16:13 pm
Looks like the Kabaddi match between YLH and Sadna is cancelled coz they have made up :(
Scout, what about your ticket sales, and TV distribution rights?
Scout, what about your ticket sales, and TV distribution rights?
#316 Posted by ylh on November 5, 2001 4:02:14 pm
`ylh is indeed free to have a whole zoo, but threatening and abusing me personally under cover of anonymity`
With all due respect Sadna, My threats were not under the cover of anonymity. Everyone on Chowk knows which town I live in, what my name is, which company I work in etc etc.
With all due respect Sadna, My threats were not under the cover of anonymity. Everyone on Chowk knows which town I live in, what my name is, which company I work in etc etc.
#315 Posted by ylh on November 5, 2001 3:13:45 pm
`Worked with FBI ? You mean you snitched on the
muslim bros.`
Yup and I am proud of it.
muslim bros.`
Yup and I am proud of it.
#313 Posted by sadna on November 5, 2001 2:40:13 pm
scout #310
ylh is indeed free to have a whole zoo, but threatening and abusing me personally under cover of anonymity and having legal kittens is a poor substitute for `defence of Pakistan` of which I certainly think I have right of reply. Irony being, none of my posts on this board merits such a reaction, but I understand an honest assessment or acknowledgement of this is too much of a strain for anyone in question.
ylh #311 #312
Firstly, if people write articles, Indians and others are likely to read them, they are not the crown jewels. In my case, I also heard a Pakistani speak on the subject. I was trying to give Gowardhan the Indian side of the picture too for perspective. These are things which need public airing so we can tackle them. Its a subject which you cannot blame anyone for talking about on chowk, thats the purpose of the talks and articles.
But I am glad to hear your personal opinion of the whole issue. As I said before we are often fighting the same demons and more power to those who do.
btw, check your mailbox now.
ylh is indeed free to have a whole zoo, but threatening and abusing me personally under cover of anonymity and having legal kittens is a poor substitute for `defence of Pakistan` of which I certainly think I have right of reply. Irony being, none of my posts on this board merits such a reaction, but I understand an honest assessment or acknowledgement of this is too much of a strain for anyone in question.
ylh #311 #312
Firstly, if people write articles, Indians and others are likely to read them, they are not the crown jewels. In my case, I also heard a Pakistani speak on the subject. I was trying to give Gowardhan the Indian side of the picture too for perspective. These are things which need public airing so we can tackle them. Its a subject which you cannot blame anyone for talking about on chowk, thats the purpose of the talks and articles.
But I am glad to hear your personal opinion of the whole issue. As I said before we are often fighting the same demons and more power to those who do.
btw, check your mailbox now.
#311 Posted by ylh on November 5, 2001 1:18:32 pm
Despite my repeated urging through out the weekend, Sadna the tough talking cat woman didnot muster up the courage to email me ...
#310 Posted by ylh on November 5, 2001 1:18:32 pm
Sadna:
`You ARE scared. OK, I will try to leave him at home`
OOOOh nice to see all of your countrymen suffer from the `Saddam Hussain syndrome`. Ask Rsaxena what that means.
`And whats with this list? All these so-called people havenot stepped forward to help you out`
And who said they stepped forward to help me out. I think self sufficient people dont need `help`. Isnt it ironic that you have the classic `phudda` mentality ... oh my brothers got my back... oh these people dont have your back. Will you give up your childish whining woman?
The people on the list are the ones that have become monsters of suspicion in your naive little mind. Each one of them you have accused of being `cowardly eunuches`.
`you to make yourself ridiculous by having so many dozen kittens at the very mention of things like educational policy in India and Pakistan`
Once again you have a fertile imagination. I on the other hand stand by everyword of what KH Nayyar and Pervez Hoodbhoy have to say about the Pakistani educational system and its sad consequences.
My problem is with bigots like you and gowardhan, who get on the net and search google with `Evil corrupt Pakistan` to prove your point, while neglecting the people of your own country who are much worse off.
-YLH
`You ARE scared. OK, I will try to leave him at home`
OOOOh nice to see all of your countrymen suffer from the `Saddam Hussain syndrome`. Ask Rsaxena what that means.
`And whats with this list? All these so-called people havenot stepped forward to help you out`
And who said they stepped forward to help me out. I think self sufficient people dont need `help`. Isnt it ironic that you have the classic `phudda` mentality ... oh my brothers got my back... oh these people dont have your back. Will you give up your childish whining woman?
The people on the list are the ones that have become monsters of suspicion in your naive little mind. Each one of them you have accused of being `cowardly eunuches`.
`you to make yourself ridiculous by having so many dozen kittens at the very mention of things like educational policy in India and Pakistan`
Once again you have a fertile imagination. I on the other hand stand by everyword of what KH Nayyar and Pervez Hoodbhoy have to say about the Pakistani educational system and its sad consequences.
My problem is with bigots like you and gowardhan, who get on the net and search google with `Evil corrupt Pakistan` to prove your point, while neglecting the people of your own country who are much worse off.
-YLH
#309 Posted by scout on November 5, 2001 1:18:32 pm
sadna,
what`s ur beef with having kittens?
ylh can have as many kittens as he wants to!
don`t forget you have kittens too, everytime you see the world Pakistan.
what`s ur beef with having kittens?
ylh can have as many kittens as he wants to!
don`t forget you have kittens too, everytime you see the world Pakistan.
#308 Posted by ZafarA on November 5, 2001 1:18:32 pm
Reply YLH # 272
“It is ironic that Zafar comes to the aid of Sadna because she is a woman…”
I wasn’t coming to Sadna’s aid but to yours, o discerning one.
:-)
Zafar
“It is ironic that Zafar comes to the aid of Sadna because she is a woman…”
I wasn’t coming to Sadna’s aid but to yours, o discerning one.
:-)
Zafar
#307 Posted by ZafarA on November 5, 2001 1:18:32 pm
Reply Scout # 296
“…just for the record, i`m observing your friendly tete`a`tete with my arch enemy, and i`d just like to say that...”
This is how I see it:
The stage darkens, suddenly there is a spotlight on a woman with a guitar stage left.
She gets up, saunters over to her supporting band (just in front of the blue cyc) and throws a couple of them into the audience after ripping their arms off, just to get things going.
Turns to the front of the stage and starts singing….
“It’s a thin liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine…”
Or did it happen differently?
“…just for the record, i`m observing your friendly tete`a`tete with my arch enemy, and i`d just like to say that...”
This is how I see it:
The stage darkens, suddenly there is a spotlight on a woman with a guitar stage left.
She gets up, saunters over to her supporting band (just in front of the blue cyc) and throws a couple of them into the audience after ripping their arms off, just to get things going.
Turns to the front of the stage and starts singing….
“It’s a thin liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine…”
Or did it happen differently?
#306 Posted by Banjaara on November 5, 2001 1:18:32 pm
Ylh # 299
``... I have worked very closely with the FBI and the law enforcement agencies to control the growing menace of Islamic fundamentalism particularly at Rutgers University`s Islamic society.``
Worked with FBI ? You mean you snitched on the
muslim bros.
Regards.
``... I have worked very closely with the FBI and the law enforcement agencies to control the growing menace of Islamic fundamentalism particularly at Rutgers University`s Islamic society.``
Worked with FBI ? You mean you snitched on the
muslim bros.
Regards.
#305 Posted by scout on November 5, 2001 1:18:32 pm
For the people interested in attending Sadna and YLH`s famed meeting:
It`s all set for this coming Sunday evening at 8pm, at the Dunkin Donuts outside the TV Asia studio in Edison, NJ. No bags allowed due to the heavy security. Fresh chocolate glazed donuts and Dunkacinos will be served.
All proceeds of the event will go towards ylh`s graduate study fund and sadna`s high speed internet connection fund.
And for our friends in India and Pakistan who are unable to attend this event, there will be a live webcast on www.chowk.com/saddo_n_yasso_live.
for more information please contact ylh at pakistanigreybilla@hotmail.com or sadna at sadna@jhumka_gira_ray.com
It`s all set for this coming Sunday evening at 8pm, at the Dunkin Donuts outside the TV Asia studio in Edison, NJ. No bags allowed due to the heavy security. Fresh chocolate glazed donuts and Dunkacinos will be served.
All proceeds of the event will go towards ylh`s graduate study fund and sadna`s high speed internet connection fund.
And for our friends in India and Pakistan who are unable to attend this event, there will be a live webcast on www.chowk.com/saddo_n_yasso_live.
for more information please contact ylh at pakistanigreybilla@hotmail.com or sadna at sadna@jhumka_gira_ray.com
#304 Posted by scout on November 5, 2001 1:18:32 pm
Ek #301, ``Aaap tau meri dost hain...yeh RSaxena jaye bhaad mein..``
dil khush kar ditta!
raveena, want a tissue?
dil khush kar ditta!
raveena, want a tissue?
#303 Posted by Trillium on November 5, 2001 1:18:32 pm
...can`t imagine why they call them FEUDALS..
#302 Posted by sadna on November 5, 2001 12:11:44 am
ylh #299
You ARE scared. OK, I will try to leave him at home. And whats with this list? All these so-called people havenot stepped forward to help you out, they have left you to make yourself ridiculous by having so many dozen kittens at the very mention of things like educational policy in India and Pakistan.
You ARE scared. OK, I will try to leave him at home. And whats with this list? All these so-called people havenot stepped forward to help you out, they have left you to make yourself ridiculous by having so many dozen kittens at the very mention of things like educational policy in India and Pakistan.
#301 Posted by rsaxena on November 4, 2001 7:50:33 pm
Re: Eklayva
``Aaap tau meri dost hain...yeh RSaxena jaye bhaad mein..``
hmmm. btw, have you noticed how some people try so so hard to get themselves into conversations they have nothing to do with? and they are easily excitable.
``Aaap tau meri dost hain...yeh RSaxena jaye bhaad mein..``
hmmm. btw, have you noticed how some people try so so hard to get themselves into conversations they have nothing to do with? and they are easily excitable.
#300 Posted by Eklavya on November 4, 2001 7:01:55 pm
Scout!
Aaap tau meri dost hain...yeh RSaxena jaye bhaad mein..
Sax, dude, I have got my priorities straight! :)
Arrested Development,
If a man has got the right chisel, he can mould a square into something round and pretty, and vice versa. I keep my chisel sharp.
Aaap tau meri dost hain...yeh RSaxena jaye bhaad mein..
Sax, dude, I have got my priorities straight! :)
Arrested Development,
If a man has got the right chisel, he can mould a square into something round and pretty, and vice versa. I keep my chisel sharp.
#299 Posted by Eklavya on November 4, 2001 7:01:55 pm
RSaxena,
The word ``seek`` gave you the wrong impression. I have got her exactly where I want her to be. I let her forage but she knows as clearly as the sun shines bright in summertime, there is no escape route for her. If I write openly more about myself, the good and decent people on Chowk will be shocked, so I seal my lips for now.
EK
The word ``seek`` gave you the wrong impression. I have got her exactly where I want her to be. I let her forage but she knows as clearly as the sun shines bright in summertime, there is no escape route for her. If I write openly more about myself, the good and decent people on Chowk will be shocked, so I seal my lips for now.
EK
#298 Posted by ylh on November 4, 2001 7:01:55 pm
Sadna, Sadna, Sadna,
OOOOOOh I am sooooooo scared of your brother... ooooooooooh. By the way I still didnt get your email.
As for your `jersey city` friends... ironic isnt it that you are trying to clump me together with Jersey city scum... Ironically I hate the Jersey City scum as much as you do. In fact they tried to jump me twice in my stay at Rutgers...
I see your game now... You will now try to make this `civilization vs terrorism` issue, and inform the FBI of Pakistani Islamic fundamentalists coming to kill you. Ironically you have chosen the wrong person to target... I have worked very closely with the FBI and the law enforcement agencies to control the growing menace of Islamic fundamentalism particularly at Rutgers University`s Islamic society. So please do contact the FBI... please.
In any event, I gave you a chance to contact me and meet me, but you obviously didnot find the gutts to contact me... now unlike you, I have work to do during the week, and I`d rather not be bothered. So please dont bother... You are not worth my time. As for my being a `coward` .. fine. Thankyou very much for the compliment.
But seriously people I think Sadna is one of those menaces which have a problem with everyone much like her counterparts in the Muslim World Bin Laden etc. She so far as shown that she has a phudda with the following people on chowk:
1) YLH
2) Rsaxena
3) Shammi
4) Shankar
5) tahmed321
6) Scout
7) Sarwari
8) temporal
9) Ferozek
10)Fuzair
With the possible exception of rsaxena, I would classify all the rest as freedom loving educated people..
Now let us examine two Sadna`s best friends on Chowk:
1) Gowardhan
2) Jay
I rest my case.
-YLH
OOOOOOh I am sooooooo scared of your brother... ooooooooooh. By the way I still didnt get your email.
As for your `jersey city` friends... ironic isnt it that you are trying to clump me together with Jersey city scum... Ironically I hate the Jersey City scum as much as you do. In fact they tried to jump me twice in my stay at Rutgers...
I see your game now... You will now try to make this `civilization vs terrorism` issue, and inform the FBI of Pakistani Islamic fundamentalists coming to kill you. Ironically you have chosen the wrong person to target... I have worked very closely with the FBI and the law enforcement agencies to control the growing menace of Islamic fundamentalism particularly at Rutgers University`s Islamic society. So please do contact the FBI... please.
In any event, I gave you a chance to contact me and meet me, but you obviously didnot find the gutts to contact me... now unlike you, I have work to do during the week, and I`d rather not be bothered. So please dont bother... You are not worth my time. As for my being a `coward` .. fine. Thankyou very much for the compliment.
But seriously people I think Sadna is one of those menaces which have a problem with everyone much like her counterparts in the Muslim World Bin Laden etc. She so far as shown that she has a phudda with the following people on chowk:
1) YLH
2) Rsaxena
3) Shammi
4) Shankar
5) tahmed321
6) Scout
7) Sarwari
8) temporal
9) Ferozek
10)Fuzair
With the possible exception of rsaxena, I would classify all the rest as freedom loving educated people..
Now let us examine two Sadna`s best friends on Chowk:
1) Gowardhan
2) Jay
I rest my case.
-YLH
#297 Posted by sadna on November 4, 2001 2:47:58 pm
scout #295
`` by the way, what`s ur beef against eunuchs?``
None at all. I mentally apologized to the world of eunuchs each time I brought them up here(and donot plan to do so anymore).
``they`re probably more man than most of the men here.``
You bet.
`` by the way, what`s ur beef against eunuchs?``
None at all. I mentally apologized to the world of eunuchs each time I brought them up here(and donot plan to do so anymore).
``they`re probably more man than most of the men here.``
You bet.
#296 Posted by Arrested Develo on November 4, 2001 2:17:57 pm
````ylh
I like Desouza...
he is a republican and he is proud of it...````
Dear YLH -- don`t drool.
Desouza is just another republican Gunga Deen -- an Indian uncle tom.
I like Desouza...
he is a republican and he is proud of it...````
Dear YLH -- don`t drool.
Desouza is just another republican Gunga Deen -- an Indian uncle tom.
#295 Posted by scout on November 4, 2001 2:17:57 pm
Eklavya,
just for the record, i`m observing your friendly tete`a`tete with my arch enemy, and i`d just like to say that...
ya to woh tumhari dost rahay gi ya main....
just for the record, i`m observing your friendly tete`a`tete with my arch enemy, and i`d just like to say that...
ya to woh tumhari dost rahay gi ya main....
#294 Posted by scout on November 4, 2001 2:17:57 pm
sadna,
between you and Zahra, these men are trembling in their shoes.
by the way, what`s ur beef against eunuchs?
they`re probably more man than most of the men here.
ps:
leave your brother and bat at home, i think ylh can do down with a wave of a pretty pinky.
tahmed321,
no no, don`t get me wrong. no matchmaking here.
for all i know, sadna might be a married aunty and ylh a pre-pubescent teen.
i just think it would be ultra cool to see sadna and ylh fighting in person. don`t you?
between you and Zahra, these men are trembling in their shoes.
by the way, what`s ur beef against eunuchs?
they`re probably more man than most of the men here.
ps:
leave your brother and bat at home, i think ylh can do down with a wave of a pretty pinky.
tahmed321,
no no, don`t get me wrong. no matchmaking here.
for all i know, sadna might be a married aunty and ylh a pre-pubescent teen.
i just think it would be ultra cool to see sadna and ylh fighting in person. don`t you?
#292 Posted by rsaxena on November 4, 2001 10:20:25 am
Re: Eklayva
``But the hotty I seek now is not only hotter than fire, she also comes with a user`s manual that displays a warning in bold letters, ``NO ALCOHOL!````
...don`t seek, let her come to you...and when she does, tell her not to be square...
``But the hotty I seek now is not only hotter than fire, she also comes with a user`s manual that displays a warning in bold letters, ``NO ALCOHOL!````
...don`t seek, let her come to you...and when she does, tell her not to be square...
#291 Posted by rsaxena on November 4, 2001 10:20:25 am
Re: sadna
``To scared to address a post to me directly, I see. Whats with all these passive-aggressive males around here?``
Dear, you`re not the only one the post was addressed to...there are too many to list, but they all know who they are...
``To scared to address a post to me directly, I see. Whats with all these passive-aggressive males around here?``
Dear, you`re not the only one the post was addressed to...there are too many to list, but they all know who they are...
#289 Posted by sadna on November 4, 2001 2:18:42 am
ylh
You will, don`t worry. I plan to bring my brother and a baseball bat(or something similar). You bring your Jersey city friends, your chowk associates are all eunuchs who cannot say what they say here on a daily basis to my face.
Rsaxena
To scared to address a post to me directly, I see. Whats with all these passive-aggressive males around here?
You will, don`t worry. I plan to bring my brother and a baseball bat(or something similar). You bring your Jersey city friends, your chowk associates are all eunuchs who cannot say what they say here on a daily basis to my face.
Rsaxena
To scared to address a post to me directly, I see. Whats with all these passive-aggressive males around here?
#288 Posted by tahmed321 on November 4, 2001 1:44:18 am
sadna #279 ``Go ahead call me bigot 5 times a day`` I think I can find something more interesting with my time. And 5 times a day = the number of times we muslims are supposed to pray. Nice touch. I wont get into the rest of your post.
#287 Posted by rsaxena on November 4, 2001 1:44:18 am
Why are so many Chowkies having trouble distinguishing between reality and an anonymous message board? All the challenges for physical battles, anger attacks, and freaking out is incredible...get a grip or go see a shrink...psychos.
#286 Posted by rsaxena on November 4, 2001 1:44:18 am
Re: ylh
``It is ironic that Zafar comes to the aid of Sadna because she is a woman, but the constant cursing at Aisha by Rsaxena goes completely unnoticed. Is it Zafar that rules apply only when YLH transgresses them, and that too in your own opinion ? I hope you issue a similar statement condemning Rsaxena, or else I think you are nothing but a hypocrite and in turn a `vulgar` person yourself ... tsk tsk... ``
hehe..freaking out again, eh? btw, can you find me the post(s) where i have done what you claim? and calling her a rat, like she calls others roaches, doesn`t count.
``It is ironic that Zafar comes to the aid of Sadna because she is a woman, but the constant cursing at Aisha by Rsaxena goes completely unnoticed. Is it Zafar that rules apply only when YLH transgresses them, and that too in your own opinion ? I hope you issue a similar statement condemning Rsaxena, or else I think you are nothing but a hypocrite and in turn a `vulgar` person yourself ... tsk tsk... ``
hehe..freaking out again, eh? btw, can you find me the post(s) where i have done what you claim? and calling her a rat, like she calls others roaches, doesn`t count.
#285 Posted by scout on November 4, 2001 1:44:18 am
sadna and ylh planning to meet in NJ?
whoa!
guys, can i come too? please? i`ll sit in a corner, you won`t even know i`m there.
whoa!
guys, can i come too? please? i`ll sit in a corner, you won`t even know i`m there.
#284 Posted by jay on November 4, 2001 1:44:18 am
Stuka 278,
I have no problems what so ever with pakistani individuals, i have known several of them, my daughter efter two decades still has a little coat, black velevet, elaborately embroidered with mirror work, brought for her by a pakistani classmate of mine. As a little five year old she wore it every where. Individual experience is an exception to the average, the generic, the institutional. People I met were the elites of pakistan, generalisation based on that will be fatal.
That does not alter the reality of pak freedom struggle. In every country freedom struggle creates an array of idealists, who put the country before their little egoes. It is the responsibility of these people to take the conuntry to the next threshold.
Have you heard of any freedom fighter in pakistan, who held any positions of power, any one who is revered, any one who is given a pension.
It is the absense of this generation, a generation of people who sacrificed something, that is the bane of pakistan. It is patheic to see the ferzoks to YLHs wating for the americans to finish off the funadoos, americans to give the aid. How did the pakistanis loose the spirit of doing something for themselves, because they never had it, they got freedom as free loaders.
Stuka, your generation hasnt seen the khadi clad people, to you they are some dinosoars, to me they were real, those men and women stood for something, we looked up to them, they ewre the generation of my parents.
Pakistan has no one, they have one jinnah, and one speach. That is why there is no hope for pakistan to emerge as a progressive country. Read Pak.com history, it will be an eye opener, and that will show the working of the pak minds, their view of the world.
regards
jay
I have no problems what so ever with pakistani individuals, i have known several of them, my daughter efter two decades still has a little coat, black velevet, elaborately embroidered with mirror work, brought for her by a pakistani classmate of mine. As a little five year old she wore it every where. Individual experience is an exception to the average, the generic, the institutional. People I met were the elites of pakistan, generalisation based on that will be fatal.
That does not alter the reality of pak freedom struggle. In every country freedom struggle creates an array of idealists, who put the country before their little egoes. It is the responsibility of these people to take the conuntry to the next threshold.
Have you heard of any freedom fighter in pakistan, who held any positions of power, any one who is revered, any one who is given a pension.
It is the absense of this generation, a generation of people who sacrificed something, that is the bane of pakistan. It is patheic to see the ferzoks to YLHs wating for the americans to finish off the funadoos, americans to give the aid. How did the pakistanis loose the spirit of doing something for themselves, because they never had it, they got freedom as free loaders.
Stuka, your generation hasnt seen the khadi clad people, to you they are some dinosoars, to me they were real, those men and women stood for something, we looked up to them, they ewre the generation of my parents.
Pakistan has no one, they have one jinnah, and one speach. That is why there is no hope for pakistan to emerge as a progressive country. Read Pak.com history, it will be an eye opener, and that will show the working of the pak minds, their view of the world.
regards
jay
#282 Posted by Eklavya on November 4, 2001 1:44:18 am
RSaxena # 276
LOL...
Hotties have never been a problem until now. But the hotty I seek now is not only hotter than fire, she also comes with a user`s manual that displays a warning in bold letters, ``NO ALCOHOL!``
LOL...
Hotties have never been a problem until now. But the hotty I seek now is not only hotter than fire, she also comes with a user`s manual that displays a warning in bold letters, ``NO ALCOHOL!``
#281 Posted by ylh on November 4, 2001 1:44:18 am
`To me you and your associates represent an absolutely cowardly people from an absolutely lost country`
So then leave us to our fate... dont bother us with your nonsense, and your superiority (read inferiority in the closet) complex. Since you have never been to Pakistan, I forgive you for thinking that we are as lost as you chaps in India.
#280 Posted by ylh on November 4, 2001 1:44:18 am
Isnt it ironic that a person needs to only be harshly critical of Pakistan to earn Gowardhan`s respect, but even the most liberal and enlightened of Indians who criticize India`s policies becomes an Islamic fundamentalist? Tsk Tsk Udaykumar sahib, Islamic fundamentalist bun gaye jinab?
#279 Posted by ylh on November 4, 2001 1:44:18 am
`you have piled on me for talking about Eklavya Science Foundation and Zia Mian. `
You know what this woman, Sadna, is completely bonkers man... I dont know what she is talking about. Listen lady (I doubt that I can give you the honor of calling you that, but hey what the heck)... I agree with everything that article had to say, and I dont dispute a word of what you are saying about the Pakistani educational policy or the problems you are outlining right now.
However, it is your self righteous tone, your obsession with Pakistan, and your constant BSing about Pakistan in subtle ways (like changing `no woman in Dir and Malakand divisions` to `no woman in NWFP).... which makes you the number 1 bigot on my list.
Maybe Stuka remembers it, but he once put up a substantial list of accusations against me, which I then countered one by one convincing him of my sincerity. However when I was doing that, I realized how much that applied to you. You are a dangerous bigot... you seem reasonable at the onset, but then you slip in dangerous nuggets of bigotry.
So whereas normally I would have applauded you for putting up the information you did, I know your intent is not the betterment of Pakistan or even the betterment of relations between Pakistan and India, your intent is simply to malign Pakistan.
Now I firmly believe that it is bigots like you have been the root cause of violence in the Sub continent. You, and your counterparts the Jamaat e Islami wallahs in Pakistan.
#278 Posted by sadna on November 3, 2001 10:39:48 pm
tahmed321 #275
``I am glad that you consider being included in the ``Hate Paki Club`` an abuse. That is progress. ``
Go ahead call me bigot 5 times a day, since what keeps you happy. Let that be your notable contribution to chowk. Pukis remain Pukis and Pukistan remains Pukistan.
ylh #272
You seem to be reading-challenged apart from being psychotic. You are stuck on NWFP inspite of all explanations. Yes I am willing to meet you and make you pay for all the abuse you have piled on me for talking about Eklavya Science Foundation and Zia Mian.
You abuse me for talking of keeping faith. To me you and your associates represent an absolutely cowardly people from an absolutely lost country.
``I am glad that you consider being included in the ``Hate Paki Club`` an abuse. That is progress. ``
Go ahead call me bigot 5 times a day, since what keeps you happy. Let that be your notable contribution to chowk. Pukis remain Pukis and Pukistan remains Pukistan.
ylh #272
You seem to be reading-challenged apart from being psychotic. You are stuck on NWFP inspite of all explanations. Yes I am willing to meet you and make you pay for all the abuse you have piled on me for talking about Eklavya Science Foundation and Zia Mian.
You abuse me for talking of keeping faith. To me you and your associates represent an absolutely cowardly people from an absolutely lost country.
#277 Posted by tahmed321 on November 3, 2001 10:13:57 pm
sadna ``tahmed, you have been setting a great example here for many months abusing me in safe anonymity. ``
I am glad that you consider being included in the ``Hate Paki Club`` an abuse. That is progress.
You stop your name-calling (``Pukistan``) and your stream of cynical and negative remarks about other people`s religion and other people`s country, and I will be glad to not include your name in this list anymore.
I am glad that you consider being included in the ``Hate Paki Club`` an abuse. That is progress.
You stop your name-calling (``Pukistan``) and your stream of cynical and negative remarks about other people`s religion and other people`s country, and I will be glad to not include your name in this list anymore.
#276 Posted by stuka on November 3, 2001 10:13:57 pm
Jay
``A free country with out freedom fighters,a freeloader of freedom, what a bastardised birth of a nation.``
Dude, that is totally uncalled for. You sometimes remind me of those Haramis at the International Trade Fair in New Delhi who were crowding around the Pakistani pavilion passing snide remarks to the poor Pakis who were there just trying to make a buck. Just to spite them, I bought stuff I didn`t even need. I swear, none of those losers would have the balls to fight one on one.
I see you giving hell to these people about honor killings and all. What about the dirt in our backyard?
I wouldn`t even mind if you served up this trash to dehumanized morons like FarangiKush, Bapu/Fatima, UrsTruly etc, but you don`t make any distinction between the good and bad ones.
I will give you an open challenge. You draw up a list of the India hating, fanatical, kill or be killed Pakis on Chowk, and I will match that up with a list of decent Pakis who I`d be proud to call a friend in real life any day. People I might disagree with on matters of politcis, but decent people nevertheless.
I await your response.
Stuka
``A free country with out freedom fighters,a freeloader of freedom, what a bastardised birth of a nation.``
Dude, that is totally uncalled for. You sometimes remind me of those Haramis at the International Trade Fair in New Delhi who were crowding around the Pakistani pavilion passing snide remarks to the poor Pakis who were there just trying to make a buck. Just to spite them, I bought stuff I didn`t even need. I swear, none of those losers would have the balls to fight one on one.
I see you giving hell to these people about honor killings and all. What about the dirt in our backyard?
I wouldn`t even mind if you served up this trash to dehumanized morons like FarangiKush, Bapu/Fatima, UrsTruly etc, but you don`t make any distinction between the good and bad ones.
I will give you an open challenge. You draw up a list of the India hating, fanatical, kill or be killed Pakis on Chowk, and I will match that up with a list of decent Pakis who I`d be proud to call a friend in real life any day. People I might disagree with on matters of politcis, but decent people nevertheless.
I await your response.
Stuka
#275 Posted by stuka on November 3, 2001 10:13:57 pm
semipreciousme:
“Semipreciousme, I will believe when I meet one.”
….well, you obviously haven’t met me yet….: )….
well, the loss is all ours :(
“Semipreciousme, I will believe when I meet one.”
….well, you obviously haven’t met me yet….: )….
well, the loss is all ours :(
#274 Posted by rsaxena on November 3, 2001 10:13:57 pm
Re: Eklayva
``If I continue to meet disappointments in my life, I just might...``
Ah, don`t worry dude...go have a drink, relax, and meet some hotties..you`ll be fine.
``If I continue to meet disappointments in my life, I just might...``
Ah, don`t worry dude...go have a drink, relax, and meet some hotties..you`ll be fine.
#273 Posted by ylh on November 3, 2001 10:13:57 pm
Macgupta:
` I think ylh will be deported
well before 2002. Who will search for his
scattered remnants in the wilderness of Pakistan ? `
I suggest you contact the FBI immediately... that particular agency and myself, we have a long history albiet as friends not enemies, ... so I wont count on my being `deported`.
As for the wilderness of Pakistan, I say Lahore sets the example for civilized cities in the subcontinent... truly deserving of its old title `Paris of Asia.`
-YLH
#272 Posted by ylh on November 3, 2001 10:13:57 pm
Looks like Sadna has finally lost it. The whining child she is, she thinks she is so important, that I will go kill her myself, by your Blood dear idiot I mean the blood of the Hindu Fundamentalists which threaten the existence of Pakistan ... You are not important enough to be killed ... Now I take it that you have called the FBI ... for long the good people of Pakistan have suffered at the hands of Hindu Bigots eg Gowardhan, Sadna, Jay, and Islamic fundamentalists eg Bin Laden, Qazi Husain Ahmed,
Its time we got rid of them all!
-YLH
Its time we got rid of them all!
-YLH
#271 Posted by ylh on November 3, 2001 10:13:57 pm
Gowardhan,
You idiot, How many times have I said that I agree with every single word of the article you have posted (the article by AH Nayyar). But to deny that similar nonsense exists in India is to deny the truth... and you are a living proof of the biases of a National Educational system designed by Hindu fundamentalists.
My assertion was different. You have on numerous occasions said that I am brainwashed by the Islamic fundamentalists of Pakistan when I say that Pakistan should be secular and that Jinnah wanted a secular Pakistan. The authors you are mentioning have similar views as me.
By the way your tirade against Udaykumar is ironic. He is held as one of the most enlightened writers within India... not that I agree with most of what he has to say. It just goes to show your ignorance. Udaykumar also a weekly column in the Fridaytimes, and has written over 2 dozen articles for chowk.com.
Macgupta,
Dear arun, now atleast you are no longer posing as the peacenik you used to. You BJP colors are finally in the open. I agree .. a culture of irrationality cannot be eroded. A God-ridden God-obsessed caste Culture like that of India will always remain a Hindu fundamentalist culture, no matter what facade of secularism and democracy that you may put on. You and your response are a clear example of it.
Sadna,
I live in New Jersey. I will be happy to meet you at a location of your choice. My email is pakistanigreywolf@hotmail.com.
However are you retracting your statement of `entire NWFP` and changing it to `women in two districts such as Dir and Malakand were not allowed to vote? If you are, you will restore my confidence, that there is still shame left amongst Indians.
Zafar:
Since when did calling a bigot a bigot become man-woman issue. My dear fellow we are not living in the era of chivalry, but instead in an era of equality. A man is equal to a woman and is not superior. Are you saying that I have some undue advantage over Sadna?
Perhaps your statement best explains the stupid statements that Muslims make while defending jihad
`it is not permissible to kill the weak the women the children etc...` Some of the finest American fighter pilots are women ... so whats this nonsense about man cursing a woman?
It is ironic that Zafar comes to the aid of Sadna because she is a woman, but the constant cursing at Aisha by Rsaxena goes completely unnoticed. Is it Zafar that rules apply only when YLH transgresses them, and that too in your own opinion ? I hope you issue a similar statement condemning Rsaxena, or else I think you are nothing but a hypocrite and in turn a `vulgar` person yourself ... tsk tsk...
Ofcourse, I dont have any such inclination to reprimand Rsaxena, because I have seen Aisha make mince meat out of him in response to his BS.
-YLH
You idiot, How many times have I said that I agree with every single word of the article you have posted (the article by AH Nayyar). But to deny that similar nonsense exists in India is to deny the truth... and you are a living proof of the biases of a National Educational system designed by Hindu fundamentalists.
My assertion was different. You have on numerous occasions said that I am brainwashed by the Islamic fundamentalists of Pakistan when I say that Pakistan should be secular and that Jinnah wanted a secular Pakistan. The authors you are mentioning have similar views as me.
By the way your tirade against Udaykumar is ironic. He is held as one of the most enlightened writers within India... not that I agree with most of what he has to say. It just goes to show your ignorance. Udaykumar also a weekly column in the Fridaytimes, and has written over 2 dozen articles for chowk.com.
Macgupta,
Dear arun, now atleast you are no longer posing as the peacenik you used to. You BJP colors are finally in the open. I agree .. a culture of irrationality cannot be eroded. A God-ridden God-obsessed caste Culture like that of India will always remain a Hindu fundamentalist culture, no matter what facade of secularism and democracy that you may put on. You and your response are a clear example of it.
Sadna,
I live in New Jersey. I will be happy to meet you at a location of your choice. My email is pakistanigreywolf@hotmail.com.
However are you retracting your statement of `entire NWFP` and changing it to `women in two districts such as Dir and Malakand were not allowed to vote? If you are, you will restore my confidence, that there is still shame left amongst Indians.
Zafar:
Since when did calling a bigot a bigot become man-woman issue. My dear fellow we are not living in the era of chivalry, but instead in an era of equality. A man is equal to a woman and is not superior. Are you saying that I have some undue advantage over Sadna?
Perhaps your statement best explains the stupid statements that Muslims make while defending jihad
`it is not permissible to kill the weak the women the children etc...` Some of the finest American fighter pilots are women ... so whats this nonsense about man cursing a woman?
It is ironic that Zafar comes to the aid of Sadna because she is a woman, but the constant cursing at Aisha by Rsaxena goes completely unnoticed. Is it Zafar that rules apply only when YLH transgresses them, and that too in your own opinion ? I hope you issue a similar statement condemning Rsaxena, or else I think you are nothing but a hypocrite and in turn a `vulgar` person yourself ... tsk tsk...
Ofcourse, I dont have any such inclination to reprimand Rsaxena, because I have seen Aisha make mince meat out of him in response to his BS.
-YLH
#270 Posted by Eklavya on November 3, 2001 2:17:16 pm
semiprecious,
If I continue to meet disappointments in my life, I just might...
I have been told by some people who are active in politics that I would make a better leader than many, but you can never trust your friends to be fair, can you? :)
If I continue to meet disappointments in my life, I just might...
I have been told by some people who are active in politics that I would make a better leader than many, but you can never trust your friends to be fair, can you? :)
#269 Posted by sadna on November 3, 2001 1:17:28 pm
Come now, guys, are you eunuchs or what? tahmed, you have been setting a great example here for many months abusing me in safe anonymity. Doesnot the Book tell you to stand up for yourselves? I live in NJ and am willing to meet up with any or all of you cowards to see whose blood is spilled like ylh promises, and I donot pay someone in my temple or village to do it for me.
#268 Posted by tahmed321 on November 3, 2001 9:52:14 am
ylh #247 You have kind words for me, and that is good, we all need that :-)
You quote the Quranic verse on how nations were meant to live with one another. That does not contradict anything I said in my previous post, you will agree I think. You have the right instincts on some basic issues (although I must add that in my view you emphasize personalities over ideas too much, and also old-fashioned nationalism too much, and may want to think about that). While I emphasize the Quran for those individuals who seem to have been misled by the garbage that passes for Islam in Pakistan, I think you are well beyond that stage and dont need to make references to Quranic verses to support your views. Keep the spirit of respect for learning for others and for your own abilities to think logically, and you are in line with the spirit of the Quran, and you dont need to refer to a Quranic verse on every issue.
Hope this does not seem like a sermon.
You quote the Quranic verse on how nations were meant to live with one another. That does not contradict anything I said in my previous post, you will agree I think. You have the right instincts on some basic issues (although I must add that in my view you emphasize personalities over ideas too much, and also old-fashioned nationalism too much, and may want to think about that). While I emphasize the Quran for those individuals who seem to have been misled by the garbage that passes for Islam in Pakistan, I think you are well beyond that stage and dont need to make references to Quranic verses to support your views. Keep the spirit of respect for learning for others and for your own abilities to think logically, and you are in line with the spirit of the Quran, and you dont need to refer to a Quranic verse on every issue.
Hope this does not seem like a sermon.
#267 Posted by Gowardhan on November 3, 2001 2:01:54 am
There comes the little twerp with new historical arguemnt. Mommy mommy, two of the authors taught me history.
ylh, if you have any shame,
Dispute what what the article said is taught in Paki history books.
Show where similar things are taught in Indian books.
ylh, if you have any shame,
Dispute what what the article said is taught in Paki history books.
Show where similar things are taught in Indian books.
#266 Posted by semipreciousme on November 3, 2001 2:01:54 am
Eklavya
“I often feel a deep sense of affection toward Pakistan. I truly wish it the very best in every way (except bombing India, of course :)).”
….thou art a very nice man:)….any likelihood of you becoming pm in the foreseeable future?…
Gowardhan
“Semipreciousme, I will believe when I meet one.”
….well, you obviously haven’t met me yet….: )….but seriously read my last post again, then re-read it…and then THINK……
“I often feel a deep sense of affection toward Pakistan. I truly wish it the very best in every way (except bombing India, of course :)).”
….thou art a very nice man:)….any likelihood of you becoming pm in the foreseeable future?…
Gowardhan
“Semipreciousme, I will believe when I meet one.”
….well, you obviously haven’t met me yet….: )….but seriously read my last post again, then re-read it…and then THINK……
#265 Posted by jay on November 3, 2001 2:01:54 am
FREEDOM AND JINNAH,
Countries in their hundreds have throw away the yoke of colonisation through freedom struggles. Some have been violent, some peaceful. But in all these countries, they have honoured the freedom fighters, the men and women who made significant personal sacrifices for the common good. These countries after independance have honoured them. In pakistan there are no freedom fighters, no pensions, no honours to these people, simply because, pakistan got feedom because on man drank sherry and watched the tamasha.
A free country with out freedom fighters,a freeloader of freedom, what a bastardised birth of a nation.
Countries in their hundreds have throw away the yoke of colonisation through freedom struggles. Some have been violent, some peaceful. But in all these countries, they have honoured the freedom fighters, the men and women who made significant personal sacrifices for the common good. These countries after independance have honoured them. In pakistan there are no freedom fighters, no pensions, no honours to these people, simply because, pakistan got feedom because on man drank sherry and watched the tamasha.
A free country with out freedom fighters,a freeloader of freedom, what a bastardised birth of a nation.
#264 Posted by ZafarA on November 3, 2001 2:01:54 am
Stuka - you did your training at Oberoi`s? Did you know anybody there called Umar Khusro?
Yasser - I try not to get involved in this, but truly, this argument is getting distasteful. A man abusing a woman (in whichever manner) does nothing but dishonour himself. Please get a grip - when you do this you aren`t defending Pakistan, you aren`t facing down/up to Sadna, you are demeaning and degrading yourself.
Yasser - I try not to get involved in this, but truly, this argument is getting distasteful. A man abusing a woman (in whichever manner) does nothing but dishonour himself. Please get a grip - when you do this you aren`t defending Pakistan, you aren`t facing down/up to Sadna, you are demeaning and degrading yourself.
#263 Posted by macgupta on November 3, 2001 2:01:54 am
Once the Taliban are wiped out and the US puts in a government then I suspect perhaps after a few years there will be very little of NWFP left (in Pakistan, that is :-)), lucky if xyz is left.
-Arun Gupta
#262 Posted by macgupta on November 3, 2001 2:01:54 am
ylh, American-educated or Pakistan-educated,
it does not make a difference. The core of
uncivilization and unculture and irrationality
within you cannot be removed.
Perhaps you will do better in your next incarnation. I will be glad to assist you in an early start. I live in your neck of the woods, you can find me easily by looking in the phone book.
Good luck !
-Arun Gupta
#261 Posted by macgupta on November 3, 2001 2:01:54 am
shammi #257 : I think ylh will be deported
well before 2002. Who will search for his
scattered remnants in the wilderness of Pakistan ?
-Arun Gupta
#260 Posted by sadna on November 2, 2001 5:48:44 pm
ylh #253
For the nth time, I am well aware that xyz districts donot constitute the whole of NWFP, I said so at the time and 100 times afterward. Why would I post a reference if I wanted to lie?
btw, what do I care why you think I am a liar. I am called a bigot almost every day of the week on almost every board,. You still cannot explain why you have to respond to my posts on this board by calling me a bigot, a liar and threatening me with biting the dust? I can make you bite the dust too, if I want to, do you have some doubt? You arguments are not better because you are a coward and use a discussion board to issue threats.
``anti-Pakistan propaganda``
Have you read a single post of mine on this topic of educational policy on this board? Everyone can do so and judge for themselves where is the anti-Pakistan propaganda. I donot see a single reason to threaten me or call me a liar except your own hatred.
btw, I live on the East Coast, too. I notice you donot have the courage to do anything but evade the necessity saying all these things to me face-to-face by calling me more names.
shammi #257
Glad to see you at least come into the open like this. Thanks for the suggestion and sorry I cannot wait that long and be abused and called a liar and a bigot on a daily basis by your friends till then. Either keep to civil discourse or stand up for yourselves in person.
You are absolute cowards, one and all. None of you has responded to any SUBJECT matter I have posted on this board, you have merely resorted to namecalling.
For the nth time, I am well aware that xyz districts donot constitute the whole of NWFP, I said so at the time and 100 times afterward. Why would I post a reference if I wanted to lie?
btw, what do I care why you think I am a liar. I am called a bigot almost every day of the week on almost every board,. You still cannot explain why you have to respond to my posts on this board by calling me a bigot, a liar and threatening me with biting the dust? I can make you bite the dust too, if I want to, do you have some doubt? You arguments are not better because you are a coward and use a discussion board to issue threats.
``anti-Pakistan propaganda``
Have you read a single post of mine on this topic of educational policy on this board? Everyone can do so and judge for themselves where is the anti-Pakistan propaganda. I donot see a single reason to threaten me or call me a liar except your own hatred.
btw, I live on the East Coast, too. I notice you donot have the courage to do anything but evade the necessity saying all these things to me face-to-face by calling me more names.
shammi #257
Glad to see you at least come into the open like this. Thanks for the suggestion and sorry I cannot wait that long and be abused and called a liar and a bigot on a daily basis by your friends till then. Either keep to civil discourse or stand up for yourselves in person.
You are absolute cowards, one and all. None of you has responded to any SUBJECT matter I have posted on this board, you have merely resorted to namecalling.
#259 Posted by Gowardhan on November 2, 2001 5:15:50 pm
I pity Jumping Jack when he has nothing to say but must jump around a like chicken without its head.
I showed a long article detailing the hatred and lies taught to Pakistani children at every level in Pakistani government sponsored schools. Jumping Jack shows these evidences of how Indian history being like his Pakistani crappy history.
Main *proof * is Mr. Udaykumar`s wisdom. No background on the abilities, qualifications of this Mr. Udaykumar. What evidence does this great authority and social scientist provide, we will see.
[Although the Congress tried to promote secularism after Partition, the textbooks reflected anti-Pakistan prejudices]
Show me where. Talking is cheap.
[The Indian Bharatia Janata Party (BJP) in the1990s ushered a new era of the communalism, and the textbooks reflected that trend,]
Show me. Where?
[``in Madhya Pradesh the BJP government re-wrote the entire textbooks from nursery to the post-graduate level with a Hindu emphasis.]
Show me, Mr, Udaykumar. Where?
[History books projected Hindu rulers such as Rana Pratap and Shivaji as heroes and Muslim rulers such as Aurangzeb as villains``.(Udayakumar, 1999)]
Finally Udaykumar, man who has no evidence, spills his bias. Bias is revealed as dishonesty at worst. Aurangzeb is not a villain because he was muslim ruler. He is villain because he was a bigot who brought ruin to his own dyansty by religious fanaticism and imposing hated Jazia tax on hindus. Indian history praises Akbar, Sher Shar Suri, Tipu Sultan sky high. Udaykumar wants us to love the fanatic Aurangzeb only because he was Muslim? (Ylh`s hero but ylh preers dying aids stricken feminine old men). Rana Pratap and shivaji were local heros who defended their kingdom with bravery. Making their fight only Hindu-Muslim shows Udaykumar`s mind. Udaykumar will be excellent *historian * for Pakistan because he also will hate local Sindhi and Punjabi ancestors who fought the invading armies. That is Pakistani history!
End of Jumping Jack`s argument. Finished. No more India history to expose. Desperate he turns to Pakistani`s pet subject Babri Masjid
RSS schools teaching wrong facts.
RSS SCHOOLS ARE NOT INDIAN GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS, YOU IDIOT. Did the article I showed mention what evil is taught in Paksitani Madrassas turned killer factories? It showed what books sponsored by Pakistani ``government`` teach.
End not only of Jumping Jacks history arguments also of Masjid arguments. What does the little twerp do now?
Jay is bad, gowardhan is bad, kill them.
End of Jumping Jack`s argument.
I showed a long article detailing the hatred and lies taught to Pakistani children at every level in Pakistani government sponsored schools. Jumping Jack shows these evidences of how Indian history being like his Pakistani crappy history.
Main *proof * is Mr. Udaykumar`s wisdom. No background on the abilities, qualifications of this Mr. Udaykumar. What evidence does this great authority and social scientist provide, we will see.
[Although the Congress tried to promote secularism after Partition, the textbooks reflected anti-Pakistan prejudices]
Show me where. Talking is cheap.
[The Indian Bharatia Janata Party (BJP) in the1990s ushered a new era of the communalism, and the textbooks reflected that trend,]
Show me. Where?
[``in Madhya Pradesh the BJP government re-wrote the entire textbooks from nursery to the post-graduate level with a Hindu emphasis.]
Show me, Mr, Udaykumar. Where?
[History books projected Hindu rulers such as Rana Pratap and Shivaji as heroes and Muslim rulers such as Aurangzeb as villains``.(Udayakumar, 1999)]
Finally Udaykumar, man who has no evidence, spills his bias. Bias is revealed as dishonesty at worst. Aurangzeb is not a villain because he was muslim ruler. He is villain because he was a bigot who brought ruin to his own dyansty by religious fanaticism and imposing hated Jazia tax on hindus. Indian history praises Akbar, Sher Shar Suri, Tipu Sultan sky high. Udaykumar wants us to love the fanatic Aurangzeb only because he was Muslim? (Ylh`s hero but ylh preers dying aids stricken feminine old men). Rana Pratap and shivaji were local heros who defended their kingdom with bravery. Making their fight only Hindu-Muslim shows Udaykumar`s mind. Udaykumar will be excellent *historian * for Pakistan because he also will hate local Sindhi and Punjabi ancestors who fought the invading armies. That is Pakistani history!
End of Jumping Jack`s argument. Finished. No more India history to expose. Desperate he turns to Pakistani`s pet subject Babri Masjid
RSS schools teaching wrong facts.
RSS SCHOOLS ARE NOT INDIAN GOVERNMENT SCHOOLS, YOU IDIOT. Did the article I showed mention what evil is taught in Paksitani Madrassas turned killer factories? It showed what books sponsored by Pakistani ``government`` teach.
End not only of Jumping Jacks history arguments also of Masjid arguments. What does the little twerp do now?
Jay is bad, gowardhan is bad, kill them.
End of Jumping Jack`s argument.
#258 Posted by Binifer on November 2, 2001 5:15:50 pm
sadna
(Tell me the time and place, if you are so serious about getting rid of me.)
u tell us. id love to see what a female so stubborn and articulacandyte looks like
Also a phadda between you and yasir should make for interesting viewing
(Tell me the time and place, if you are so serious about getting rid of me.)
u tell us. id love to see what a female so stubborn and articulacandyte looks like
Also a phadda between you and yasir should make for interesting viewing
#257 Posted by stuka on November 2, 2001 5:15:50 pm
YLH:
Thank you for giving the URL to the Daudpota article. It made interesting reading.
Shammi: I agree with you about taking the emotionalism out of international discourse. Where I disagree is your assertion that only the refugges carry emotional baggage. I also disagree with the assertion that refugee emotions are by and large negative.
Thank you for giving the URL to the Daudpota article. It made interesting reading.
Shammi: I agree with you about taking the emotionalism out of international discourse. Where I disagree is your assertion that only the refugges carry emotional baggage. I also disagree with the assertion that refugee emotions are by and large negative.
#256 Posted by stuka on November 2, 2001 5:15:50 pm
Shammi/YLH:
In college, I did my internship at the Oberoi`s, New Delhi. While working at the front desk I learnt that:
1. The particulars of all foreignes, except those of of Pakistan and People`s Republic of China, were supposed to be sent to the FRRO(Foreigner Regional Registration Office) within 24 hors of Check In.
2. The particulars of citizens of Pakistan and PRC were to sent to the nearest police station within 12 Hours. The Police would then send one constable to sit around in the looby and to keep an eye on them.
Well-heeled Pakis, basically that means anyone staying at The Oberoi`s, would use the Havildar as a Guide, and tip the chap a few rupees.
In college, I did my internship at the Oberoi`s, New Delhi. While working at the front desk I learnt that:
1. The particulars of all foreignes, except those of of Pakistan and People`s Republic of China, were supposed to be sent to the FRRO(Foreigner Regional Registration Office) within 24 hors of Check In.
2. The particulars of citizens of Pakistan and PRC were to sent to the nearest police station within 12 Hours. The Police would then send one constable to sit around in the looby and to keep an eye on them.
Well-heeled Pakis, basically that means anyone staying at The Oberoi`s, would use the Havildar as a Guide, and tip the chap a few rupees.
#255 Posted by shammi on November 2, 2001 5:15:50 pm
Re: sadna #251
``...Tell me the time and place, if you are so serious about getting rid of me...``
Outside Lahore Airport on October 2, 2002 when YLH returns to Pakistan. The `akhara` will be the Corps Commanders front lawn in Lahore Cantt. I will be the referree.
``...Tell me the time and place, if you are so serious about getting rid of me...``
Outside Lahore Airport on October 2, 2002 when YLH returns to Pakistan. The `akhara` will be the Corps Commanders front lawn in Lahore Cantt. I will be the referree.
#254 Posted by ylh on November 2, 2001 5:15:50 pm
And what about Eqbal Ahmed`s article : Roots of Violence, in which he analyzes the `Khilafat` Movement.... and Gandhi`s role in it... its from the same book, or are we just selectively quoting the book Sadna aka Gowardhan?
#253 Posted by ylh on November 2, 2001 5:15:50 pm
And what about Eqbal Ahmed`s article : Roots of Violence, in which he analyzes the `Khilafat` Movement.... and Gandhi`s role in it... its from the same book, or are we just selectively quoting the book Sadna aka Gowardhan?
#252 Posted by ylh on November 2, 2001 5:15:50 pm
PS In the book that Sadna aka Gowardhan mentioned, I can see atleast 2 names who taught me History in school, one is Rubina Saigol and the other Nadeem Qaiser.
Furthermore, these authors put together a book called Pakistan Studies a Political Economy which is now the accepted text for Pakistan Studies for O levels and A Levels, and not the book that authors mention in their article.
Furthermore, these authors put together a book called Pakistan Studies a Political Economy which is now the accepted text for Pakistan Studies for O levels and A Levels, and not the book that authors mention in their article.
#251 Posted by ylh on November 2, 2001 5:15:50 pm
Sadna,
Your claim was as you admit `No woman in entire NWFP` ... the article your posted spoke of `Dir and Malakand` divisions. Now Maybe you need a Geography lesson but Dir and Malakand divisions form up less than 10% of NWFP. Your lie was that no woman in NWFP was allowed to vote. If you still think you didnt lie, then I rest my case.
As for Dir and Malakand, it is like saying that somewhere in Nagaland women are still burnt alive and so entire North East India has a women`s rights problem.
Now coming to your education policy comments, no one has denied that Pakistan`s educational policy but to use that as a weapon in your anti-Pakistan propaganda is a bunch of nonsense. SImilarly India faces the same problems. Furthermore, you people dont have any integrity. Have you read Prof Hoodbhoy`s collection of Articles? He has an article about the subcontinent History, and his view is on the dot with my view of History, and his criticism of Pakistan`s history writing is same as mine... yet, I on the other hand am accused of being brainwashed by the imagined `Islamic fundamentalists`.
Have you and Mr Gowardhan had the opportunity of reading chap 5 of the same book?
http://members.tripod.com/
Your claim was as you admit `No woman in entire NWFP` ... the article your posted spoke of `Dir and Malakand` divisions. Now Maybe you need a Geography lesson but Dir and Malakand divisions form up less than 10% of NWFP. Your lie was that no woman in NWFP was allowed to vote. If you still think you didnt lie, then I rest my case.
As for Dir and Malakand, it is like saying that somewhere in Nagaland women are still burnt alive and so entire North East India has a women`s rights problem.
Now coming to your education policy comments, no one has denied that Pakistan`s educational policy but to use that as a weapon in your anti-Pakistan propaganda is a bunch of nonsense. SImilarly India faces the same problems. Furthermore, you people dont have any integrity. Have you read Prof Hoodbhoy`s collection of Articles? He has an article about the subcontinent History, and his view is on the dot with my view of History, and his criticism of Pakistan`s history writing is same as mine... yet, I on the other hand am accused of being brainwashed by the imagined `Islamic fundamentalists`.
Have you and Mr Gowardhan had the opportunity of reading chap 5 of the same book?
http://members.tripod.com/
#250 Posted by sadna on November 2, 2001 1:08:35 pm
ylh #248
OK, you want a fight. I didnot lie about the women in NWFP. After making the statement about `not a single woman in NWFP`, I posted the Dawn article which talked about `not a single woman in xyz districts`. So how could I be lying or even intending to lie? You on the other hand denied even the Dawn article`s authenticity if I remember right.
And why are you calling me a liar now? Are you saying Gowardhan and I are lying about the article on Pakistani education policies? You are free to read it on the website I referred to and the rest of the book and contact the people named as authors to check the authenticity yourself. Calling us liars doesnot wash.
ylh, and other chowk posters, since you hate me so much, why keep using my name in your posts, repeatedly calling me bigot, twisted and talking of my biting the dust ? If the reason is that you want me to take your insults, threats and your hatred seriously, I consider you extremely cowardly for issuing these threats on an anonymous forum. Tell me the time and place, if you are so serious about getting rid of me.
OK, you want a fight. I didnot lie about the women in NWFP. After making the statement about `not a single woman in NWFP`, I posted the Dawn article which talked about `not a single woman in xyz districts`. So how could I be lying or even intending to lie? You on the other hand denied even the Dawn article`s authenticity if I remember right.
And why are you calling me a liar now? Are you saying Gowardhan and I are lying about the article on Pakistani education policies? You are free to read it on the website I referred to and the rest of the book and contact the people named as authors to check the authenticity yourself. Calling us liars doesnot wash.
ylh, and other chowk posters, since you hate me so much, why keep using my name in your posts, repeatedly calling me bigot, twisted and talking of my biting the dust ? If the reason is that you want me to take your insults, threats and your hatred seriously, I consider you extremely cowardly for issuing these threats on an anonymous forum. Tell me the time and place, if you are so serious about getting rid of me.
#249 Posted by shammi on November 2, 2001 1:00:16 pm
Re: YLH
I think that if you travel outside of the metropolitan areas, you are required to report to police stations daily (am I wrong?). Anyway, stay in touch -- one day I will definitely visit Pakistan, and you, sir, will use your sifarish to waive the requirements for me. I am nevertheless delighted by the special offer to Indian citizens. But, I am not about to wait in line outside the Pakistan embassy in Delhi (people camp overnight there, you know?).
I think that if you travel outside of the metropolitan areas, you are required to report to police stations daily (am I wrong?). Anyway, stay in touch -- one day I will definitely visit Pakistan, and you, sir, will use your sifarish to waive the requirements for me. I am nevertheless delighted by the special offer to Indian citizens. But, I am not about to wait in line outside the Pakistan embassy in Delhi (people camp overnight there, you know?).
#248 Posted by shammi on November 2, 2001 12:36:45 pm
Re: Stuka
This article below is the sort of stuff that is unlikely to emanate from refugee politics laden with emotional baggage:
``India US debate `deliverables```
http://in.news.yahoo.com/011101/16/17z9m.html
This article below is the sort of stuff that is unlikely to emanate from refugee politics laden with emotional baggage:
``India US debate `deliverables```
http://in.news.yahoo.com/011101/16/17z9m.html
#247 Posted by ylh on November 2, 2001 12:36:45 pm
sadna,
what do you think I am going to forget that you lied about women voting in NWFP just because you praised my post addressed to Mr Burns?
Your insults, spites, and underhanded tricks have been noted, and shall be rectified or rewarded in due course of time ... I shall have my vengeance.
-YLH
what do you think I am going to forget that you lied about women voting in NWFP just because you praised my post addressed to Mr Burns?
Your insults, spites, and underhanded tricks have been noted, and shall be rectified or rewarded in due course of time ... I shall have my vengeance.
-YLH
#246 Posted by ylh on November 2, 2001 12:36:45 pm
eklavya,
Point taken... sorry about the harsh words earlier. Honestly, whatever differences I might have with Tahmed and whatever I might say to him in anger, my admiration for him, and my pride in him as a Pakistani is not hidden but very well known, as is my admiration for you.
tahmed,
Sorry about the confusion. I thought your post was in response to 219 in which I tried very hard though severely curtailed by the lack of words, to explain my position on Nationalism vis a vis Globalism...
I hope now you understand where I stand on the issue of globalism and nationalism. Indeed I believe in a world of free markets and porous borders... to me the Quranic verse
`We made you in nations so that you may know each other`
is the ultimate truth.
Point taken... sorry about the harsh words earlier. Honestly, whatever differences I might have with Tahmed and whatever I might say to him in anger, my admiration for him, and my pride in him as a Pakistani is not hidden but very well known, as is my admiration for you.
tahmed,
Sorry about the confusion. I thought your post was in response to 219 in which I tried very hard though severely curtailed by the lack of words, to explain my position on Nationalism vis a vis Globalism...
I hope now you understand where I stand on the issue of globalism and nationalism. Indeed I believe in a world of free markets and porous borders... to me the Quranic verse
`We made you in nations so that you may know each other`
is the ultimate truth.
#245 Posted by ylh on November 2, 2001 12:36:45 pm
Gowardhan: `Show me`
Sir you are the prime example of fanaticism bigotry and revisionism that Indian educational system has produced... you and your `good vs evil` view is the root cause of World`s problems...
A COMPARISON OF PAKISTANI AND INDIAN REVISIONISMS:
(We know ofcourse as usual Gowardhan will retreat)
You say Pakistani educational system has been guilty of revisionism. I say yes ... it has been.. it has tried to portray an `Islamic` image of Jinnah which has no roots in reality... but then again you attack the Pakistani educational system for creating `YLH` and because YLH says Jinnah was secular and that Pakistan should be secular. Well
time to open your eyes, YLH`s sources of information and books are neither Pakistani nor Muslim, they are British, American, or Indian.
You grow up on a diet of revisionism in an educational system one of the directors of which is a confessed Indian communal murderer of the Partition times....
You say `show me` ... I say `you show me` ... Pakistani books like `First Steps in our history` a book designed for Elementary school Kids in Pakistan has nothing but Praise for Gandhi and other Indian leaders... and that book was printed by Pakistan Military Accademy presss... can you show me one Indian book that acknowledges Jinnah`s role in the Congress from the years 1906-1920 ?FORget any fruitful analysis of the reasons behind why a once ardent nationalist turned communal. Can you show me one Indian text book which mentions that Jinanh was once known as the `Best Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity` and none other than your own leaders like Gandhi and nehru called him that... or were they liars... and if they were not liars then something is seriously wrong with your educational system.
You are taught to hate Pakistan. Pakistan you are told is an anamoly... but I dont care what you think of Jinnah or Pakistan... yet if we have a different perspective, we have the right to that perspective. Remember your own `Gandhi` said truth is relative.
PAKISTAN:
Yes Zia times tried to `Islamicize` Pakistani educational system, and that had perverse consequences for Pakistan ... but then your logic doesnt make sense... Zia`s educational books said Pakistan is the creation of Islam... but when I say that Pakistan`s creation has secular socio-political reasons, you say I am brainwashed by Pakistani educational system, a system which I never even attended.
The truth is that India is the least of the concerns of Pakistani books ... the problem of revisionism exists in Pakistan but it has nothing to do with India... it has to do with Pakistan itself...
It is perhaps best summed up in Isa Daudpota`s article `Joint Indo-Pak History textbook`
http://www.chowk.com/bin/showa.cgi?qdaudpota_sep2600
QUOTE:
History has been used to churn out a certain myth about the struggle thatled to the creation of Pakistan. Though leaders of All-India Muslim League or Mr M.A. Jinnah never used the word ``Ideology of Pakistan``, a new subject has been introduced in the schools and colleges of Pakistan just to propagate the official distortions of history.
THIS SUMS UP THE PROBLEM WITH PAKISTAN`S REVISIONISM ... Pakistan`s revisionism is self destructive and not `India obsessed`. We have conjured up an `ideology` of Pakistan which Jinnah and his ilk didnot have in mind. THIS IS EXACTLY what YLH HAS BEEN SAYING! On the contrary, essentially there is no difference between the officially propagated view of History by Pakistan and the view of History that GOWARDHAN adheres to .. the only difference is of values... Zia`s Pakistani Ideology holds Islam to be the Most perfect system ... Gowardhan`s view holds Islam to be the most negative destructive force... Both views are extreme and wrong, just like their essentially common view of Ideology of Pakistan.
INDIA
Now let us come to India:
India`s revisionism is essentially of `Anti-Pakistan` and `Anti-Muslim Variety` variety.
Although the Congress tried to promote secularism after Partition, the textbooks reflected anti-Pakistan prejudices. The Indian Bharatia Janata Party (BJP) in the1990s ushered a new era of the communalism, and the textbooks reflected that trend, ``in Madhya Pradesh the BJP government re-wrote the entire textbooks from nursery to the post-graduate level with a Hindu emphasis. History books projected Hindu rulers such as Rana Pratap and Shivaji as heroes and Muslim rulers such as Aurangzeb as villains``.(Udayakumar, 1999)
And Hindu `Madrassahs` teach Violence and Bigotry too From Hindustan Times:
``.thousands of Rashtriya Swayam Sewak schools are teaching a brand of history, especially where it concerns the Babri masjid demolition and the
minorities, which does not always apply either an objective methodology or a factual historical paradigm. Instead, it is loaded with crass communal overtones. Clearly, the sole purpose of this reinterpretation of historical facts is to indoctrinate and poison young minds with a prejudiced vision of the past. For instance, the textbook curriculum of the Vidya Bharati AkhilBharatiya Shiksha Sansthan, which is affiliated with the RSS, has claimed that the Babri masjid was not a mosque because Muslims `have never till today offered namaaz there`. Other fantastic revelations state that from1528 to 1914, 350,000 `devotees of Lord Ram have laid down their lives to liberate the Ram temple` and that foreigners invaded Sri Ramjanambhoomi notless then 77 times. In terms of the contemporary history of modern India, the textbooks state that November 2, 1990, will be inscribed in black letters `because on that day the then Chief Minister, by ordering the police to shoot unarmed kar sevaks, massacred hundreds of them.` All this, of course, is complete nonsense - packed with lies and untruths.`` (The Hindustan Times, June 6, 2000)
And ladies and gentlemen hence we have people like Jay and their bigoted Hindu fanatic posts such as
` That is incorrect, the fact is that I dont care a damn about pakistan. But I like paki bashing,
and that is all. I usually do not make any personal remarks, it is invariably on the monstrocity called pakistan, and mostly caricatures of ideas. Now let us talk of ramadan, and there is talk of stopping the bombing during ramadan. This a western notion, where the religious festival of christmas is enjoyment and merry making,relaxing and getting drunk. Ramadan is the opposite, it is the time of masochist torture, starting with no male- female sex, to fasting and sleep diprevation`
Notice how Islam is almost always identified with Pakistan... Indeed, more than Pakistan it is Jay`s hatred for Islam that is speaking. I always said, as Jinnah himself proclaimed manytimes, TNT is not a desire but a fact, a fact which is imposed on us by people like Jay, RSS, and the Hindu fanatics.
In order to have peace in the world we have to kill them all, we have to kill Bin Laden, we have to kill Qazi Husain Ahmed, we have to kill Maulana Sami ul Haq, we have to kill Naqshbandi, we have to kill Gowardhan, and we definitely have to kill Jay.
And then Humanity will have a shot at peace.
-YLH
Sir you are the prime example of fanaticism bigotry and revisionism that Indian educational system has produced... you and your `good vs evil` view is the root cause of World`s problems...
A COMPARISON OF PAKISTANI AND INDIAN REVISIONISMS:
(We know ofcourse as usual Gowardhan will retreat)
You say Pakistani educational system has been guilty of revisionism. I say yes ... it has been.. it has tried to portray an `Islamic` image of Jinnah which has no roots in reality... but then again you attack the Pakistani educational system for creating `YLH` and because YLH says Jinnah was secular and that Pakistan should be secular. Well
time to open your eyes, YLH`s sources of information and books are neither Pakistani nor Muslim, they are British, American, or Indian.
You grow up on a diet of revisionism in an educational system one of the directors of which is a confessed Indian communal murderer of the Partition times....
You say `show me` ... I say `you show me` ... Pakistani books like `First Steps in our history` a book designed for Elementary school Kids in Pakistan has nothing but Praise for Gandhi and other Indian leaders... and that book was printed by Pakistan Military Accademy presss... can you show me one Indian book that acknowledges Jinnah`s role in the Congress from the years 1906-1920 ?FORget any fruitful analysis of the reasons behind why a once ardent nationalist turned communal. Can you show me one Indian text book which mentions that Jinanh was once known as the `Best Ambassador of Hindu Muslim Unity` and none other than your own leaders like Gandhi and nehru called him that... or were they liars... and if they were not liars then something is seriously wrong with your educational system.
You are taught to hate Pakistan. Pakistan you are told is an anamoly... but I dont care what you think of Jinnah or Pakistan... yet if we have a different perspective, we have the right to that perspective. Remember your own `Gandhi` said truth is relative.
PAKISTAN:
Yes Zia times tried to `Islamicize` Pakistani educational system, and that had perverse consequences for Pakistan ... but then your logic doesnt make sense... Zia`s educational books said Pakistan is the creation of Islam... but when I say that Pakistan`s creation has secular socio-political reasons, you say I am brainwashed by Pakistani educational system, a system which I never even attended.
The truth is that India is the least of the concerns of Pakistani books ... the problem of revisionism exists in Pakistan but it has nothing to do with India... it has to do with Pakistan itself...
It is perhaps best summed up in Isa Daudpota`s article `Joint Indo-Pak History textbook`
http://www.chowk.com/bin/showa.cgi?qdaudpota_sep2600
QUOTE:
History has been used to churn out a certain myth about the struggle thatled to the creation of Pakistan. Though leaders of All-India Muslim League or Mr M.A. Jinnah never used the word ``Ideology of Pakistan``, a new subject has been introduced in the schools and colleges of Pakistan just to propagate the official distortions of history.
THIS SUMS UP THE PROBLEM WITH PAKISTAN`S REVISIONISM ... Pakistan`s revisionism is self destructive and not `India obsessed`. We have conjured up an `ideology` of Pakistan which Jinnah and his ilk didnot have in mind. THIS IS EXACTLY what YLH HAS BEEN SAYING! On the contrary, essentially there is no difference between the officially propagated view of History by Pakistan and the view of History that GOWARDHAN adheres to .. the only difference is of values... Zia`s Pakistani Ideology holds Islam to be the Most perfect system ... Gowardhan`s view holds Islam to be the most negative destructive force... Both views are extreme and wrong, just like their essentially common view of Ideology of Pakistan.
INDIA
Now let us come to India:
India`s revisionism is essentially of `Anti-Pakistan` and `Anti-Muslim Variety` variety.
Although the Congress tried to promote secularism after Partition, the textbooks reflected anti-Pakistan prejudices. The Indian Bharatia Janata Party (BJP) in the1990s ushered a new era of the communalism, and the textbooks reflected that trend, ``in Madhya Pradesh the BJP government re-wrote the entire textbooks from nursery to the post-graduate level with a Hindu emphasis. History books projected Hindu rulers such as Rana Pratap and Shivaji as heroes and Muslim rulers such as Aurangzeb as villains``.(Udayakumar, 1999)
And Hindu `Madrassahs` teach Violence and Bigotry too From Hindustan Times:
``.thousands of Rashtriya Swayam Sewak schools are teaching a brand of history, especially where it concerns the Babri masjid demolition and the
minorities, which does not always apply either an objective methodology or a factual historical paradigm. Instead, it is loaded with crass communal overtones. Clearly, the sole purpose of this reinterpretation of historical facts is to indoctrinate and poison young minds with a prejudiced vision of the past. For instance, the textbook curriculum of the Vidya Bharati AkhilBharatiya Shiksha Sansthan, which is affiliated with the RSS, has claimed that the Babri masjid was not a mosque because Muslims `have never till today offered namaaz there`. Other fantastic revelations state that from1528 to 1914, 350,000 `devotees of Lord Ram have laid down their lives to liberate the Ram temple` and that foreigners invaded Sri Ramjanambhoomi notless then 77 times. In terms of the contemporary history of modern India, the textbooks state that November 2, 1990, will be inscribed in black letters `because on that day the then Chief Minister, by ordering the police to shoot unarmed kar sevaks, massacred hundreds of them.` All this, of course, is complete nonsense - packed with lies and untruths.`` (The Hindustan Times, June 6, 2000)
And ladies and gentlemen hence we have people like Jay and their bigoted Hindu fanatic posts such as
` That is incorrect, the fact is that I dont care a damn about pakistan. But I like paki bashing,
and that is all. I usually do not make any personal remarks, it is invariably on the monstrocity called pakistan, and mostly caricatures of ideas. Now let us talk of ramadan, and there is talk of stopping the bombing during ramadan. This a western notion, where the religious festival of christmas is enjoyment and merry making,relaxing and getting drunk. Ramadan is the opposite, it is the time of masochist torture, starting with no male- female sex, to fasting and sleep diprevation`
Notice how Islam is almost always identified with Pakistan... Indeed, more than Pakistan it is Jay`s hatred for Islam that is speaking. I always said, as Jinnah himself proclaimed manytimes, TNT is not a desire but a fact, a fact which is imposed on us by people like Jay, RSS, and the Hindu fanatics.
In order to have peace in the world we have to kill them all, we have to kill Bin Laden, we have to kill Qazi Husain Ahmed, we have to kill Maulana Sami ul Haq, we have to kill Naqshbandi, we have to kill Gowardhan, and we definitely have to kill Jay.
And then Humanity will have a shot at peace.
-YLH
#244 Posted by ylh on November 2, 2001 12:36:45 pm
Fundamentalists adopt Gandhian Methods:
We all know that civil disobedience is a disease rampant on the streets of Pakistan, now another facet has been included.... `Qazi Husain Ahmed of Jamaat e Islami issues call for boycott of US made goods` ... and the Drama unfolds.. after all for the Jamaat e Islami, Gandhi was much more of a religious figure than anyone else.
We all know that civil disobedience is a disease rampant on the streets of Pakistan, now another facet has been included.... `Qazi Husain Ahmed of Jamaat e Islami issues call for boycott of US made goods` ... and the Drama unfolds.. after all for the Jamaat e Islami, Gandhi was much more of a religious figure than anyone else.
#243 Posted by ylh on November 2, 2001 12:36:45 pm
Shammi,
You are a man of credibility and you generally are seen as someone we can be in agreement with on key human issues if not national ones. But all that amounts to zilch, when you take to exaggerate when in your sarcasm, something which doesnt suit you.
You said :
`without having to report to a miserable police station every night:)`
My friend Mr Prem Saghar Bodagala arrived with me in Pakistan, and I drove him twice to the `reporting` center, once the day of his arrival, second time the day he was leaving. He is an Indian citizen and I was just informed that I should not take him to the Lahore Cantt. area, but of our friends from the US is the grandson of the Corp Commandar of Lahore Cantt. so we went to visit him... besides in Lahore, the Airport is located in the Cantt area ironically, so if you are landing in Lahore you go there ...
So my point is that we didnt have to go to `a miserable police station everynight` ... but was required... we went to a `reporting` center to check in and check out which happened in less than 30 Minutes total.
And guess what ... the Pakistan Visa fee for all citizens of any country is $45 .. that is except Indian citizens... For Indian citizens it is only
$2 Dollars... Wouldnt you go report in a nearest enforcement agency and save $43 ?
You are a man of credibility and you generally are seen as someone we can be in agreement with on key human issues if not national ones. But all that amounts to zilch, when you take to exaggerate when in your sarcasm, something which doesnt suit you.
You said :
`without having to report to a miserable police station every night:)`
My friend Mr Prem Saghar Bodagala arrived with me in Pakistan, and I drove him twice to the `reporting` center, once the day of his arrival, second time the day he was leaving. He is an Indian citizen and I was just informed that I should not take him to the Lahore Cantt. area, but of our friends from the US is the grandson of the Corp Commandar of Lahore Cantt. so we went to visit him... besides in Lahore, the Airport is located in the Cantt area ironically, so if you are landing in Lahore you go there ...
So my point is that we didnt have to go to `a miserable police station everynight` ... but was required... we went to a `reporting` center to check in and check out which happened in less than 30 Minutes total.
And guess what ... the Pakistan Visa fee for all citizens of any country is $45 .. that is except Indian citizens... For Indian citizens it is only
$2 Dollars... Wouldnt you go report in a nearest enforcement agency and save $43 ?
#242 Posted by rsaxena on November 2, 2001 9:21:12 am
Re: ylh
``I have set the date of my final return to Pakistan as October 1st 2002.... I have decided to work only till my OPT expires.``
Good. That will raise the average intellect of both countries.
``I have set the date of my final return to Pakistan as October 1st 2002.... I have decided to work only till my OPT expires.``
Good. That will raise the average intellect of both countries.
#241 Posted by jay on November 2, 2001 9:21:12 am
Shammy
``Re: Jay -- yes, he does not like Pakistan, but then he is one person out of over a billion. Can`t use him as a basis for making a generalized judgemnt.``
That is incorrect, the fact is that I dont care a damn about pakistan. But I like paki bashing, and that is all. I usually do not make any personal remarks, it is invariably on the monstrocity called pakistan, and mostly caricatures of ideas.
Now let us talk of ramadan, and there is talk of stopping the bombing during ramadan. This a western notion, where the religious festival of christmas is enjoyment and merry making, relaxing and getting drunk. Ramadan is the opposite, it is the time of masochist torture, starting with no male- female sex, to fasting and sleep diprevation.
This is the ideal time to wage war and if I remeber correctly a great war of significance led by the man himself was during ramadan.
It is the amripakis who are talking of no war during ramadan,especially the pickenes walking ataturk loving indian turned naturalised pakistani. Let us follow the islamic norm, and I understand that there are `specials` on houris during the festival time, a la K-mart, and shaheeds should rush in before the specials finish. Last year the specials were 20 percent extra, on 70 houris, it is not a bad number.
regards
jay
``Re: Jay -- yes, he does not like Pakistan, but then he is one person out of over a billion. Can`t use him as a basis for making a generalized judgemnt.``
That is incorrect, the fact is that I dont care a damn about pakistan. But I like paki bashing, and that is all. I usually do not make any personal remarks, it is invariably on the monstrocity called pakistan, and mostly caricatures of ideas.
Now let us talk of ramadan, and there is talk of stopping the bombing during ramadan. This a western notion, where the religious festival of christmas is enjoyment and merry making, relaxing and getting drunk. Ramadan is the opposite, it is the time of masochist torture, starting with no male- female sex, to fasting and sleep diprevation.
This is the ideal time to wage war and if I remeber correctly a great war of significance led by the man himself was during ramadan.
It is the amripakis who are talking of no war during ramadan,especially the pickenes walking ataturk loving indian turned naturalised pakistani. Let us follow the islamic norm, and I understand that there are `specials` on houris during the festival time, a la K-mart, and shaheeds should rush in before the specials finish. Last year the specials were 20 percent extra, on 70 houris, it is not a bad number.
regards
jay
#240 Posted by AAmir on November 2, 2001 1:27:02 am
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#239 Posted by Lajwanti on November 2, 2001 1:27:02 am
Nuggets from the Urdu press
Advertise Here
America`s `baira` will be `gharaq`
Famous warrior and chief of Lashkar-e-Tayba Hafiz Saeed told Nawa-e-Waqt that there will be baira gharaq (shipwreck) of America at the hands of Allah. He said it was the religious duty of all Pakistanis to come to the defence of the Islamic government of Afghanistan. He said the crusades were on and the Christians would come to grief. He asked General Musharraf why he agreed with the American bombing of airports and power stations in Afghanistan since they were not hideouts for the terrorists. Mufti Shamzai of Banuri mosque in Karachi ruled that the government which supports the Americans should be toppled.
Mulla Umar is nuts
According to daily Din, Mulla Umar the caliph of Afghanistan was mentally sick and was given to bouts of madness during which he screamed like a child. It was his routine to lock himself inside a room which his followers thought was a kind of maraqba (spiritual vigil) but in fact he tried to hide his madness.
Journalist who ate five times a day!
According to Khabrain British journalist Yvonne Ridley writing about her arrest at the hands of the Taliban intelligence agency said that the statement of the Afghan spokesman that she was given five meals a day `because she was used to eating all the time` was false because she was not given any food and that she was on hunger strike during her captivity and had eaten only after being released. She added that she was made to walk 80 miles.
Mulla Umar`s teacher held
According to Khabrain, Mullah Umar`s teacher, 67 year old Maulana Ghulam Sarwar, was picked up in Quetta and held in custody by the Pakistani police. The teacher, after being arrested, immediately declared jehad on America. The arrest was made hours after the beginning of the American attack on Afghanistan.
Dr Israr`s pearls of wisdom
Quoted in daily Din, Lahore`s famous cleric Dr Israr Ahmad said that the attacks in New York and Washington on September 11 were carried out by the Jews. Next, the Jews will destroy Masjid-e-Aqsa in occupied Jerusalem. He said Israel will finally be conquered by the combined power of the mujahideen from Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Gul sways lawyers
According to daily Pakistan, ex-ISI chief General Hamid Gul told the Lahore High Court bar that the terrorism in America was actually the work of Americans and Jews. He said America wanted to end the power of China and Pakistan. After Afghanistan, America would end Pakistan. After his speech, the lawyers became extremely emotional and shouted that he should lead their procession against the government, but the office bearers of the bar succeeded in containing the fiery passions of the true Muslim lawyers.
Astrologers on Taliban crisis
According to Khabrain, a handful of astrologers in Lahore expressed conflicting views on the future of the on-going American attacks on Afghanistan. Almost all of them said that America will fail and that the Taliban will win and the Muslim world would unite, but disagreed in detail. One said that Pakistan will emerge from its own crisis in 2002, and another said that Osama bin Laden would leave Afghanistan but Mulla Umar would lose power in 2001.
A bungalow for Mulla Umar
Famous columnist Nazeer Naji wrote in Jang that Osama bin Laden came to Afghanistan and took control of it and in return built a bungalow for Mulla Umar. After that he got rid of Mulla Umar`s Afghan guards and appointed a new guard comprising the Bengali warriors of his organisation, Al-Qaeda. These were salaried men who had learned to hate Pakistan.
Jesus writes to Christians!
Columnist Ismail Qureshi wrote in Nawa-e-Waqt a letter from Jesus to his Christian followers wherein Christianity was accused of having imposed crusades on Muslims and then exploited the Muslim world in the 20th century, building its World Trade Center with the usury extracted from poor Muslim states. Then Christ sent ghaibi (invisible) power which destroyed the World Trade Center, after which Christianity declared war on poor Muslims. Jesus said that he could not remain quiet on this injustice and asked Christians to reform themselves and do penance.
The name of Osama bin Laden
Daily Nawa-e-Waqt wrote in its Sare Rahe column that Pakistan foreign minister Abdul Sattar returned from Doha and held a press conference at Lahore State Guest House but carefully avoided naming Osama bin Laden while the world was talking about him and President Bush was waking up at night crying Osama, Osama! The column called on the Taliban ambassador in Islamabad Mulla Zaeef to rename himself Mulla Qavi (powerful) because that was what was needed against the Americans. His name Zaeef means weak.
Gen Aslam Beg speaks again
Quoted in Khabrain, ex-COAS General Mirza Aslam Beg said that if the Americans sent land troops in Afghanistan tau oos kay hosh thikanay ajayen gai (will be brought to its senses). The last time he said this during the Gulf war, the Americans landed and Saddam Hussein was quickly defeated. But the genius of General Beg has remained undimmed in the service of Pakistan. Ex-ISI chief, General Hameed Gul said in Khabrain that America will never send land troops into Afghanistan. He said OIC was murda (dead). Maj-Gen (Retd) Tajamul Hussain Malik said not so originally that America wanted to take hold of Pakistan`s nuclear weapons and give them away to some other country. He said the war against the Taliban would be a long one and the Americans would run away after seeing dead bodies.
Praising great actresses
Film producer Khwaja Pervez wrote in Khabrain that a statement by actress Reema, Mira, Resham and Saima that they would die for Pakistan was a great gesture of self-sacrifice for the country even though the statement was the work of a destitute journalist sitting at his desk. He said Reema had made Pakistan famous by doing colossal shopping in America, thus picking up its economy and making it beholden to Pakistan. He said the debt of the tawaef (courtesans) was great on Pakistan since they sang all the TV songs. They should now be sent to America to persuade it not to kill the Afghans.
India will remember its `nani`
Quoted in Khabrain, General (Retd) K.M. Arif said that if India attacked Pakistan it will be made to remember its nani (grandmother). He said the Americans had superiority in the air but if they sent land forces into Afghanistan, then the Taliban will have superiority over them. Two superpowers (Britain and the USSR) have had themselves already defeated in Afghanistan. General Hameed Gul said that the Americans will soon learn the rates of atta and daal in Afghanistan.
Parachinar refuses asylum to Afghans
According to Khabrain, the tribal people of Parachinar in the Kurram Agency refused to offer asylum to the Afghan refugee fleeing their country `because the last we did that the Russians attacked us and killed 12 of us`. Seeing this, the political agent set up three refugee camps in the lower part of the Kurram Agency.
Osama like Napoleon and Quaid
Astrologer Abdul Wahab told Khabrain that the thumb of Osama bin Laden was like the thumbs of Napoleon and the Quaid-e-Azam. He said Osama was under threat till November 4, after which he will be safe. According to his lines, Osama was incapable of attacking America but he had a personality that attracted human beings like honey attracted bees. Osama did not bow in front of anyone and was a man of great determination, but he would meet a sad end.
`Reema lao!`
According to Khabrain a local theatre in Lahore was nearly put on fire by an angry crowd after film actress Reema failed to turn up in a show arranged in her name. After Reema failed to appear, the crowd shouted Reema Lao (bring Reema) and began to damage the property of the theatre. The administration said that though the show was dedicated to Reema there was no pledge by them to bring her to the theatre. After this the crowd tried to set fire to the theatre.
Americans eat sleeping pills
Great columnist Muzaffar Bukhari wrote in daily Din that America was worth pitying because 20 percent of the Americans were clinically mad and the rest took sleeping pills to go to sleep. He wrote that the Americans should read the following line of Allama Iqbal: tu agar mera nahin banta nan ban apna tau ban (if you can`t be mine be your own person).
Hekmatyar joins whom?
According to daily Insaf great Afghan leader and former ISI favourite Glubuddin Hekmatyar joined the Taliban with his men and all the weapons he had got from Pakistan`s ISI during the Afghan war. He was keeping the weapons as buried cache somewhere in Afghanistan. Other reports said that Hekmatyar had joined the Northern Alliance.
Mulla Umar`s family killed
According to Ausaf, the wife of Mulla Umar, one daughter and two sons, got killed during the American air attacks. The sons were injured on the first day of the attack. His close relatives were also either injured a or were killed by the American bombs falling on Kandahar.
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Advertise Here
America`s `baira` will be `gharaq`
Famous warrior and chief of Lashkar-e-Tayba Hafiz Saeed told Nawa-e-Waqt that there will be baira gharaq (shipwreck) of America at the hands of Allah. He said it was the religious duty of all Pakistanis to come to the defence of the Islamic government of Afghanistan. He said the crusades were on and the Christians would come to grief. He asked General Musharraf why he agreed with the American bombing of airports and power stations in Afghanistan since they were not hideouts for the terrorists. Mufti Shamzai of Banuri mosque in Karachi ruled that the government which supports the Americans should be toppled.
Mulla Umar is nuts
According to daily Din, Mulla Umar the caliph of Afghanistan was mentally sick and was given to bouts of madness during which he screamed like a child. It was his routine to lock himself inside a room which his followers thought was a kind of maraqba (spiritual vigil) but in fact he tried to hide his madness.
Journalist who ate five times a day!
According to Khabrain British journalist Yvonne Ridley writing about her arrest at the hands of the Taliban intelligence agency said that the statement of the Afghan spokesman that she was given five meals a day `because she was used to eating all the time` was false because she was not given any food and that she was on hunger strike during her captivity and had eaten only after being released. She added that she was made to walk 80 miles.
Mulla Umar`s teacher held
According to Khabrain, Mullah Umar`s teacher, 67 year old Maulana Ghulam Sarwar, was picked up in Quetta and held in custody by the Pakistani police. The teacher, after being arrested, immediately declared jehad on America. The arrest was made hours after the beginning of the American attack on Afghanistan.
Dr Israr`s pearls of wisdom
Quoted in daily Din, Lahore`s famous cleric Dr Israr Ahmad said that the attacks in New York and Washington on September 11 were carried out by the Jews. Next, the Jews will destroy Masjid-e-Aqsa in occupied Jerusalem. He said Israel will finally be conquered by the combined power of the mujahideen from Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Gul sways lawyers
According to daily Pakistan, ex-ISI chief General Hamid Gul told the Lahore High Court bar that the terrorism in America was actually the work of Americans and Jews. He said America wanted to end the power of China and Pakistan. After Afghanistan, America would end Pakistan. After his speech, the lawyers became extremely emotional and shouted that he should lead their procession against the government, but the office bearers of the bar succeeded in containing the fiery passions of the true Muslim lawyers.
Astrologers on Taliban crisis
According to Khabrain, a handful of astrologers in Lahore expressed conflicting views on the future of the on-going American attacks on Afghanistan. Almost all of them said that America will fail and that the Taliban will win and the Muslim world would unite, but disagreed in detail. One said that Pakistan will emerge from its own crisis in 2002, and another said that Osama bin Laden would leave Afghanistan but Mulla Umar would lose power in 2001.
A bungalow for Mulla Umar
Famous columnist Nazeer Naji wrote in Jang that Osama bin Laden came to Afghanistan and took control of it and in return built a bungalow for Mulla Umar. After that he got rid of Mulla Umar`s Afghan guards and appointed a new guard comprising the Bengali warriors of his organisation, Al-Qaeda. These were salaried men who had learned to hate Pakistan.
Jesus writes to Christians!
Columnist Ismail Qureshi wrote in Nawa-e-Waqt a letter from Jesus to his Christian followers wherein Christianity was accused of having imposed crusades on Muslims and then exploited the Muslim world in the 20th century, building its World Trade Center with the usury extracted from poor Muslim states. Then Christ sent ghaibi (invisible) power which destroyed the World Trade Center, after which Christianity declared war on poor Muslims. Jesus said that he could not remain quiet on this injustice and asked Christians to reform themselves and do penance.
The name of Osama bin Laden
Daily Nawa-e-Waqt wrote in its Sare Rahe column that Pakistan foreign minister Abdul Sattar returned from Doha and held a press conference at Lahore State Guest House but carefully avoided naming Osama bin Laden while the world was talking about him and President Bush was waking up at night crying Osama, Osama! The column called on the Taliban ambassador in Islamabad Mulla Zaeef to rename himself Mulla Qavi (powerful) because that was what was needed against the Americans. His name Zaeef means weak.
Gen Aslam Beg speaks again
Quoted in Khabrain, ex-COAS General Mirza Aslam Beg said that if the Americans sent land troops in Afghanistan tau oos kay hosh thikanay ajayen gai (will be brought to its senses). The last time he said this during the Gulf war, the Americans landed and Saddam Hussein was quickly defeated. But the genius of General Beg has remained undimmed in the service of Pakistan. Ex-ISI chief, General Hameed Gul said in Khabrain that America will never send land troops into Afghanistan. He said OIC was murda (dead). Maj-Gen (Retd) Tajamul Hussain Malik said not so originally that America wanted to take hold of Pakistan`s nuclear weapons and give them away to some other country. He said the war against the Taliban would be a long one and the Americans would run away after seeing dead bodies.
Praising great actresses
Film producer Khwaja Pervez wrote in Khabrain that a statement by actress Reema, Mira, Resham and Saima that they would die for Pakistan was a great gesture of self-sacrifice for the country even though the statement was the work of a destitute journalist sitting at his desk. He said Reema had made Pakistan famous by doing colossal shopping in America, thus picking up its economy and making it beholden to Pakistan. He said the debt of the tawaef (courtesans) was great on Pakistan since they sang all the TV songs. They should now be sent to America to persuade it not to kill the Afghans.
India will remember its `nani`
Quoted in Khabrain, General (Retd) K.M. Arif said that if India attacked Pakistan it will be made to remember its nani (grandmother). He said the Americans had superiority in the air but if they sent land forces into Afghanistan, then the Taliban will have superiority over them. Two superpowers (Britain and the USSR) have had themselves already defeated in Afghanistan. General Hameed Gul said that the Americans will soon learn the rates of atta and daal in Afghanistan.
Parachinar refuses asylum to Afghans
According to Khabrain, the tribal people of Parachinar in the Kurram Agency refused to offer asylum to the Afghan refugee fleeing their country `because the last we did that the Russians attacked us and killed 12 of us`. Seeing this, the political agent set up three refugee camps in the lower part of the Kurram Agency.
Osama like Napoleon and Quaid
Astrologer Abdul Wahab told Khabrain that the thumb of Osama bin Laden was like the thumbs of Napoleon and the Quaid-e-Azam. He said Osama was under threat till November 4, after which he will be safe. According to his lines, Osama was incapable of attacking America but he had a personality that attracted human beings like honey attracted bees. Osama did not bow in front of anyone and was a man of great determination, but he would meet a sad end.
`Reema lao!`
According to Khabrain a local theatre in Lahore was nearly put on fire by an angry crowd after film actress Reema failed to turn up in a show arranged in her name. After Reema failed to appear, the crowd shouted Reema Lao (bring Reema) and began to damage the property of the theatre. The administration said that though the show was dedicated to Reema there was no pledge by them to bring her to the theatre. After this the crowd tried to set fire to the theatre.
Americans eat sleeping pills
Great columnist Muzaffar Bukhari wrote in daily Din that America was worth pitying because 20 percent of the Americans were clinically mad and the rest took sleeping pills to go to sleep. He wrote that the Americans should read the following line of Allama Iqbal: tu agar mera nahin banta nan ban apna tau ban (if you can`t be mine be your own person).
Hekmatyar joins whom?
According to daily Insaf great Afghan leader and former ISI favourite Glubuddin Hekmatyar joined the Taliban with his men and all the weapons he had got from Pakistan`s ISI during the Afghan war. He was keeping the weapons as buried cache somewhere in Afghanistan. Other reports said that Hekmatyar had joined the Northern Alliance.
Mulla Umar`s family killed
According to Ausaf, the wife of Mulla Umar, one daughter and two sons, got killed during the American air attacks. The sons were injured on the first day of the attack. His close relatives were also either injured a or were killed by the American bombs falling on Kandahar.
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#238 Posted by shammi on November 2, 2001 1:27:02 am
Re: YLH #234
Great! Democracy will be in season, and our very own Chowkie Jeffersonian democrat will arive just in time. We expect great things of you upon your return. Do not fritter the flower of your youth like the rest of us in naukaris. You are destined to be the 2nd Jinnah, and maybe one day I will need your sifarish to obtain a Pakistani visa and travel the length and breadth of your country without having to report to a miserable police station every night:)
Great! Democracy will be in season, and our very own Chowkie Jeffersonian democrat will arive just in time. We expect great things of you upon your return. Do not fritter the flower of your youth like the rest of us in naukaris. You are destined to be the 2nd Jinnah, and maybe one day I will need your sifarish to obtain a Pakistani visa and travel the length and breadth of your country without having to report to a miserable police station every night:)
#237 Posted by sadna on November 1, 2001 10:23:46 pm
ylh #233
You need to cheer up. That was a good response you wrote to Terry Burns. Why don`t you write some more articles for chowk?
You need to cheer up. That was a good response you wrote to Terry Burns. Why don`t you write some more articles for chowk?
#236 Posted by tahmed321 on November 1, 2001 9:40:06 pm
ylh #219 OK, I read your post and I see you are stretching what I said in my previous post. I am not talking about a World Government lording it over 6 billion persons who are clones of one another and with no basic rights. All I am saying is that globalization is coming whether you like it or not. It is coming due to technological changes and changes in the modes of production, not due to any UN resolutions or due to any conspiracy. Political institutions have historically evolved with changes in the economy as we all know (from tribalism to feudalism, to kingships to nationalism to ..?). What they will evolve into, no one can say for sure. Some things will probably be decided Globally - but will it be a Confederation of States, or Specialized Bodies, or a form of Trade Guilds, I dont know and I dont care. A few things will be decided Regionally - again, it is not clear what political arrangement will evolve. In Europe such regional groupings are already taking shape. A lot of things will be decided Locally it seems - hopefully through democratic local self-governments. And most important, in a free world, will be decided by the Individual for himself. Hopefully individual freedom will be limited only by the need to respect other people`s freedom and safety and rights. That is what is evolving. A focus on nationality or nationalism of the traditional kind alone simply detracts one from the emerging realities. That is all I am saying.
#235 Posted by tahmed321 on November 1, 2001 9:40:06 pm
ylh #226 Sorry to get you so upset. Our posts obviously put in the mail at the same time, and my non-serious post #221 was written before I read your serious post #219. No direspect intended at all to your post #219. I shall read it carefully, reflect, research, draft response, have it reviewed by personal grammarian (where is temporal anyway), and do a spell check (maybe). And that will be my considered, respectful, response to your post #229 (I am joking here, incidentally). Not my post #221.
#234 Posted by Gowardhan on November 1, 2001 9:40:06 pm
divinecomedy, anny, semipreciousme
Throwing words is easy. There is never big protest in Pakistan against the poison children are taught. When did any politician, religious person, military person in Pakistan stand up to say we should stop teaching hatred to our children? Jumping jacks like ylh dont want to even acknowledge problems. Standard answer is India teaches similar. Show me, anybody who thinks so.
Semipreciousme, I will believe when I meet one. Anny, thinking everyone equal is easy if it is only outside friends. Anything more you cant despite you being a good person. Divine comedy, blaming me wont solve problem. None of you will step out of any system. Too weak.
Eklvya,
I will wait for your answer.
Throwing words is easy. There is never big protest in Pakistan against the poison children are taught. When did any politician, religious person, military person in Pakistan stand up to say we should stop teaching hatred to our children? Jumping jacks like ylh dont want to even acknowledge problems. Standard answer is India teaches similar. Show me, anybody who thinks so.
Semipreciousme, I will believe when I meet one. Anny, thinking everyone equal is easy if it is only outside friends. Anything more you cant despite you being a good person. Divine comedy, blaming me wont solve problem. None of you will step out of any system. Too weak.
Eklvya,
I will wait for your answer.
#233 Posted by stuka on November 1, 2001 9:40:06 pm
Shammi:
``The refugees tend to have too much emotional baggage to be able to make `rational` decisions.``
That I agree with. The refugess do tend to have too much baggage, and the pendulum swings from ``Ham sab bhaiyon kee tarah rahte they``
to ``yeh Musla jaat hee harami hai`` within the quantum of one drink of scotch. I am not being facetetious here. This is atleast what I have observed, absolute lack of clarity and objective vision amongst the refugees
``...who try to brush Indian-Pak differences under the carpet...``
I don`t try to brush differences under the carpet. Why do you think I do? My position is that maintaining differences ad nauseum could become unsustainable, and is not without cost.
I am not talking of ``maintaing differences`` but recognizing them. Both countries have a habit of burying their heads in the sand. If you take ``UN Resolutions to be implemented`` and Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India`` and then say that Kashmir is not a core issue, it just drives me nuts. In this case, yes, I blame the Indians, but it won`t take me long to find an example of the other either. What is the point of holding candle light vigils in Wagah and another type of vigil 300 miles north? Arrey, decide, what is our policy, what are the differences, and how to approach them?
Regarding North Indians having negative feelings as compared to South Indians, well I lack statistics, but I think you over-estimate the negativity in us, and under-estimate it in the south Indians. Just a matter of opinion. The Punjabis are emotional yes, but, if there is a lot that we differ on, there is a lot that we share with the Pakis too. The people down south share nothing at all in terms of culture and language, but do reflect the differences in national policy.
When Kuldip Nayar referred to Pakistanis as brothers, it was TVR Shenoy, a South Indian who publicly said that they may be Kuldip Nayar`s brothers, but certainly weren`t his, because he shared absolutely nothing in terms of language and culture. The most hawkish Indian Army chief was also a Tam Bram, Gen Sundarji.
The point is, much water has flown under the bridge since 1947, and the refugees of today get more pissed off by enroachment of Delhi by Haryanvis, then by stories of Partition. Emotions exist, yes, but not all negative, and certainly not all the time. Our textbooks are unbiased against the Mughals, but they are biased against Pakistan. We may recognize Pakistan, but still question its birth.
Time has come for us to move on. Recognize our core national interests, throw out the ideology, not get pissed of over their non-secular government, cease to give lecture on human rights and democracy, and just deal with them on things that affect us. That is the point I was trying to make to Gowardhan. Why is he getting ants in his pants if Paki text books teach them to hate Hindus? Is he a Paki Hindu? Let him deal with the Pakis he interacts with on his own terms.
``The refugees tend to have too much emotional baggage to be able to make `rational` decisions.``
That I agree with. The refugess do tend to have too much baggage, and the pendulum swings from ``Ham sab bhaiyon kee tarah rahte they``
to ``yeh Musla jaat hee harami hai`` within the quantum of one drink of scotch. I am not being facetetious here. This is atleast what I have observed, absolute lack of clarity and objective vision amongst the refugees
``...who try to brush Indian-Pak differences under the carpet...``
I don`t try to brush differences under the carpet. Why do you think I do? My position is that maintaining differences ad nauseum could become unsustainable, and is not without cost.
I am not talking of ``maintaing differences`` but recognizing them. Both countries have a habit of burying their heads in the sand. If you take ``UN Resolutions to be implemented`` and Jammu and Kashmir is an integral part of India`` and then say that Kashmir is not a core issue, it just drives me nuts. In this case, yes, I blame the Indians, but it won`t take me long to find an example of the other either. What is the point of holding candle light vigils in Wagah and another type of vigil 300 miles north? Arrey, decide, what is our policy, what are the differences, and how to approach them?
Regarding North Indians having negative feelings as compared to South Indians, well I lack statistics, but I think you over-estimate the negativity in us, and under-estimate it in the south Indians. Just a matter of opinion. The Punjabis are emotional yes, but, if there is a lot that we differ on, there is a lot that we share with the Pakis too. The people down south share nothing at all in terms of culture and language, but do reflect the differences in national policy.
When Kuldip Nayar referred to Pakistanis as brothers, it was TVR Shenoy, a South Indian who publicly said that they may be Kuldip Nayar`s brothers, but certainly weren`t his, because he shared absolutely nothing in terms of language and culture. The most hawkish Indian Army chief was also a Tam Bram, Gen Sundarji.
The point is, much water has flown under the bridge since 1947, and the refugees of today get more pissed off by enroachment of Delhi by Haryanvis, then by stories of Partition. Emotions exist, yes, but not all negative, and certainly not all the time. Our textbooks are unbiased against the Mughals, but they are biased against Pakistan. We may recognize Pakistan, but still question its birth.
Time has come for us to move on. Recognize our core national interests, throw out the ideology, not get pissed of over their non-secular government, cease to give lecture on human rights and democracy, and just deal with them on things that affect us. That is the point I was trying to make to Gowardhan. Why is he getting ants in his pants if Paki text books teach them to hate Hindus? Is he a Paki Hindu? Let him deal with the Pakis he interacts with on his own terms.
#232 Posted by ylh on November 1, 2001 9:40:06 pm
Shammi
I have set the date of my final return to Pakistan as October 1st 2002.... I have decided to work only till my OPT expires.
-YLH
I have set the date of my final return to Pakistan as October 1st 2002.... I have decided to work only till my OPT expires.
-YLH
#231 Posted by ylh on November 1, 2001 9:40:06 pm
Bhadwaraj...
I dont know who you are, but I hope and pray you are not a Pakistani... As for Saudis,Afghanis etc being Pakistanis, what a bunch of bull .... They have their own countries, they should keep to their own countries... should we neglect our minorities who are Pakistanis, for Muslims who are not Pakistanis? Is that even Islamic?
As for the Islamic prefix, let me assure you that the `Islamic` prefix is just simply the worst form of `chamberlainism` that Pakistan`s rulers have employed to appease your kind in Pakistan. One day, we shall drop that prefix.
Eklavya, Gowardhan, Sadna saga
Sad to see that Eklavya is apologizing to lying bigots like Gowardhan aka Sadna, what has the world come to. Eklavya if you really think Gowardhan has any integrity I apologize for thinking of you so highly.
I ll tell you when there will be peace in the world... when Sami ul Haqs, Naqshbandis, Bin ladens, Gowardhans, Sadnas all will bite the dust.
-YLH
I dont know who you are, but I hope and pray you are not a Pakistani... As for Saudis,Afghanis etc being Pakistanis, what a bunch of bull .... They have their own countries, they should keep to their own countries... should we neglect our minorities who are Pakistanis, for Muslims who are not Pakistanis? Is that even Islamic?
As for the Islamic prefix, let me assure you that the `Islamic` prefix is just simply the worst form of `chamberlainism` that Pakistan`s rulers have employed to appease your kind in Pakistan. One day, we shall drop that prefix.
Eklavya, Gowardhan, Sadna saga
Sad to see that Eklavya is apologizing to lying bigots like Gowardhan aka Sadna, what has the world come to. Eklavya if you really think Gowardhan has any integrity I apologize for thinking of you so highly.
I ll tell you when there will be peace in the world... when Sami ul Haqs, Naqshbandis, Bin ladens, Gowardhans, Sadnas all will bite the dust.
-YLH
#230 Posted by Eklavya on November 1, 2001 9:40:06 pm
ylh # 226
Ylh, I haven`t read all the interacts between you and tahmed321, so I hope you will forgive me if I misunderstand your position.
One of the reasons I have deeply admired you, despite our occasional differences, is that you love your country deeply. For me, that is the first principle when I judge a person. One who does not love his or her country is simply not worthy of love.
Since I don`t read every post here, it is possible tahmed321 said something that you found offensive or disagreeable. But if there is one thing on which I will bet my life it is that tahmed321 loves Pakistan as much as I love India or you love Pakistan.
His repeated reminders to us that we should see ourselves in global terms should not confuse us. Human love is a multi-layered thing. One can love one`s country and can still seek the vision of global brotherhood or sisterhood. We do that all the time: we love our families, our neighborhoods, our communities, our nations. So we need not stop there. Remember we are not born with nations written on our foreheads.
I have even come to believe that our feelings of commitment and love are not only multilayered but also multidimensional, complex beyond simple understanding. It sounds absurd that while I continue to believe that Pakistani army has been the source of a great many of our problems (see my bias!), and despite the fact we have fought war after war, and still spend billions just to be able to ``nuke the enemy first,`` I often feel a deep sense of affection toward Pakistan. I truly wish it the very best in every way (except bombing India, of course :)).
If I, an ``enemy,`` can have such complex feelings, imagine what someone like tahmed must feel. My belief is that he is a more mature man than I. He loves his nation AND sees a day when we could all realize that, after all, beyond Hindu-Muslim, Indian-Pakistani, we are first and foremost human beings with very human commitments; while I merely love my nation.
I think of people like tahmed as elders who remind us that we ought to take the next step in our individual growth.
But hey, that is my opinion. You are too smart a guy to need lectures from me!
Ylh, I haven`t read all the interacts between you and tahmed321, so I hope you will forgive me if I misunderstand your position.
One of the reasons I have deeply admired you, despite our occasional differences, is that you love your country deeply. For me, that is the first principle when I judge a person. One who does not love his or her country is simply not worthy of love.
Since I don`t read every post here, it is possible tahmed321 said something that you found offensive or disagreeable. But if there is one thing on which I will bet my life it is that tahmed321 loves Pakistan as much as I love India or you love Pakistan.
His repeated reminders to us that we should see ourselves in global terms should not confuse us. Human love is a multi-layered thing. One can love one`s country and can still seek the vision of global brotherhood or sisterhood. We do that all the time: we love our families, our neighborhoods, our communities, our nations. So we need not stop there. Remember we are not born with nations written on our foreheads.
I have even come to believe that our feelings of commitment and love are not only multilayered but also multidimensional, complex beyond simple understanding. It sounds absurd that while I continue to believe that Pakistani army has been the source of a great many of our problems (see my bias!), and despite the fact we have fought war after war, and still spend billions just to be able to ``nuke the enemy first,`` I often feel a deep sense of affection toward Pakistan. I truly wish it the very best in every way (except bombing India, of course :)).
If I, an ``enemy,`` can have such complex feelings, imagine what someone like tahmed must feel. My belief is that he is a more mature man than I. He loves his nation AND sees a day when we could all realize that, after all, beyond Hindu-Muslim, Indian-Pakistani, we are first and foremost human beings with very human commitments; while I merely love my nation.
I think of people like tahmed as elders who remind us that we ought to take the next step in our individual growth.
But hey, that is my opinion. You are too smart a guy to need lectures from me!
#229 Posted by sadna on November 1, 2001 3:24:42 pm
Eklavya #229
I am pretty sure that a Pakistani present at the talk I mentioned was Zia Mian who co-edited the collection of articles in question. This person(who mentioned Prof Hoodbhoy too) if I remember right spoke about how children were essentially being educated in a way that they would reach the conclusion that nuclear weapons were necessary, thereby being impoverished twice, first by being the losers to disproportionate military budgets going into building nuclear weapons and secondly by being indoctrinated to perpetuate this disproportion and think it indispensable to their wellbeing.
Obviously, the Indian speaker had the same apprehension about BJP`s intentions, and a case can be made that a similar indoctrination/impoverishment is happening to a large extent in India too, not by design(I believe) but incidentally or more subtly through our situation/choices/responses/language.
Its all rather disturbing. I`m NOT a peacenik, but I think it doesnot hurt to look closely at different parts of the picture.
I am pretty sure that a Pakistani present at the talk I mentioned was Zia Mian who co-edited the collection of articles in question. This person(who mentioned Prof Hoodbhoy too) if I remember right spoke about how children were essentially being educated in a way that they would reach the conclusion that nuclear weapons were necessary, thereby being impoverished twice, first by being the losers to disproportionate military budgets going into building nuclear weapons and secondly by being indoctrinated to perpetuate this disproportion and think it indispensable to their wellbeing.
Obviously, the Indian speaker had the same apprehension about BJP`s intentions, and a case can be made that a similar indoctrination/impoverishment is happening to a large extent in India too, not by design(I believe) but incidentally or more subtly through our situation/choices/responses/language.
Its all rather disturbing. I`m NOT a peacenik, but I think it doesnot hurt to look closely at different parts of the picture.
#228 Posted by Eklavya on November 1, 2001 2:08:33 pm
re: Gowardhan # 168 and others
Gowardhan,
I am not ignoring you. You deserve a full response. You said a few things that were true and that cut me to the quick. But let me recover; I will get back to you.
EK
Sadna,
Thanks for the reference. It was wrong of me to doubt Gowardhan`s integrity just because his message was bitter.
Gowardhan,
I am not ignoring you. You deserve a full response. You said a few things that were true and that cut me to the quick. But let me recover; I will get back to you.
EK
Sadna,
Thanks for the reference. It was wrong of me to doubt Gowardhan`s integrity just because his message was bitter.
#227 Posted by shammi on November 1, 2001 2:08:33 pm
Re: last post to YLH
The sentence that I wanted to quote is:
``...As for my `nationalistic` fervor, it is not rooted in some fantasy but in reality .. ``
The remainder of the post remains unaltered
The sentence that I wanted to quote is:
``...As for my `nationalistic` fervor, it is not rooted in some fantasy but in reality .. ``
The remainder of the post remains unaltered
#226 Posted by shammi on November 1, 2001 2:08:33 pm
Re: YLH
``...And no, the Khaki chaddis of the RSS never were a sartorial attraction to me....``
And when, dear YLH, do you plan on translating the `nationalistic fervor` into action on the ground in Pakistan? Or, are you going to be content with burning your keypad from New Jersey?
``...And no, the Khaki chaddis of the RSS never were a sartorial attraction to me....``
And when, dear YLH, do you plan on translating the `nationalistic fervor` into action on the ground in Pakistan? Or, are you going to be content with burning your keypad from New Jersey?
#225 Posted by ylh on November 1, 2001 1:17:10 pm
Tahmed,
Whatever man... I have given you the blue print for the confederation of Nations .. I didnt give your post serious thought... I had given these issues a serious thought last year when I was trying to analyze the issues of existence and identity... especially context of religion and nationality etc.
By declaring the nonsense that you are declaring you have shown yourself to be the equal of the intolerant bigots of the WTC fame difference? You speak of Globalization, they speak of a narrow interpretation of Islam.
As for my `nationalistic` fervor, it is not rooted in some fantasy but in reality .. and I find everything wrong with your view, because your entire post shows your arrogance and closemindedness... I would imagine that I am perhaps much more of a `globalist` than yourself, but because I am so I know that in a closely knit global world we will have to exist in representative units ie Nations.
I was not competing with you, nor was I debating with you... nor do I have any desire to convince you of anything... Please give up these childish notions ok? So celebrate your Post 175 all you want... You have shown yourself to be arrogant conceited vain man.
When people who lack `intellectual rigor` will finally come up with a firm and concrete plan for humanity to live under one democratic government without one culture overtaking another, and after having overcome the natural biases that exist in one`s life... maybe then you can speak... But then again, your version of `globalism` will only have the same fate as `communism`.
Shouting slogans is easy, implementation of ideal may not be... both you and I want the same thing.. a United Humanity... You want it by suppressing a vital human right, I want it by celebrating it. That is the difference!
-YLH
Whatever man... I have given you the blue print for the confederation of Nations .. I didnt give your post serious thought... I had given these issues a serious thought last year when I was trying to analyze the issues of existence and identity... especially context of religion and nationality etc.
By declaring the nonsense that you are declaring you have shown yourself to be the equal of the intolerant bigots of the WTC fame difference? You speak of Globalization, they speak of a narrow interpretation of Islam.
As for my `nationalistic` fervor, it is not rooted in some fantasy but in reality .. and I find everything wrong with your view, because your entire post shows your arrogance and closemindedness... I would imagine that I am perhaps much more of a `globalist` than yourself, but because I am so I know that in a closely knit global world we will have to exist in representative units ie Nations.
I was not competing with you, nor was I debating with you... nor do I have any desire to convince you of anything... Please give up these childish notions ok? So celebrate your Post 175 all you want... You have shown yourself to be arrogant conceited vain man.
When people who lack `intellectual rigor` will finally come up with a firm and concrete plan for humanity to live under one democratic government without one culture overtaking another, and after having overcome the natural biases that exist in one`s life... maybe then you can speak... But then again, your version of `globalism` will only have the same fate as `communism`.
Shouting slogans is easy, implementation of ideal may not be... both you and I want the same thing.. a United Humanity... You want it by suppressing a vital human right, I want it by celebrating it. That is the difference!
-YLH
#224 Posted by shammi on November 1, 2001 1:17:10 pm
Re: Stuka #213
``...And no, the Khaki chaddis of the RSS never were a sartorial attraction to me...``
I also think that if the RSS is serious about expanding membership, they should start with a redesign of their oversized khakhi shorts. They are a big turn-off for even the less fashion-inclined crowd.
``...And no, the Khaki chaddis of the RSS never were a sartorial attraction to me...``
I also think that if the RSS is serious about expanding membership, they should start with a redesign of their oversized khakhi shorts. They are a big turn-off for even the less fashion-inclined crowd.
#223 Posted by tahmed321 on November 1, 2001 9:31:49 am
ylh: I think you overlooked my note #175 with some serious, thoughtful, not to mention enlightened discussion. I will assume it challenges your nationalistic fervor, and you are unable to find a logical flaw in that argument, and that you are also unwilling to accept that you are unable to find a logical flaw in that argument, and that therefore post #175 wins by walkover.
Post #175 Zindabad!!
Note: Please ignore my post below, which is an earlier draft of this one.
Post #175 Zindabad!!
Note: Please ignore my post below, which is an earlier draft of this one.
#222 Posted by tahmed321 on November 1, 2001 9:31:49 am
ylh: I think you overlooked my note #175 with some serious, thoughtful, not to mention enlightened discussion. I will assume it challenges your nationalistic fervor, and you are unwilling to find a logical flaw in that argument, and that you are also unwilling to accept that you are unwilling to find a logical flaw in that argument, and that therefore post #175 wins by walkover.
Post #175 Zindabad!!
Post #175 Zindabad!!
#221 Posted by Binifer on November 1, 2001 9:31:49 am
scout
gandi bachi, iyam :--) but the shirt ka back is not there silly, skirt poora poora hae ;--)
saxena
im sure my man would like to shove a few horns up your rear - himmat hae tau apnaer baarae mae kuch details do beta
or will you take the whole `the internet is not safe` bull again?
gandi bachi, iyam :--) but the shirt ka back is not there silly, skirt poora poora hae ;--)
saxena
im sure my man would like to shove a few horns up your rear - himmat hae tau apnaer baarae mae kuch details do beta
or will you take the whole `the internet is not safe` bull again?
#220 Posted by divine-comedy on November 1, 2001 9:31:49 am
Gowardhan : I hate Pakistan.
Fine, but why do you feel the need to come here then? Why this obsession with Pakistan. As for National Policy, it is clear that the educational system and national policy made bigots like you has done its homework much better.
Fine, but why do you feel the need to come here then? Why this obsession with Pakistan. As for National Policy, it is clear that the educational system and national policy made bigots like you has done its homework much better.
#219 Posted by saminashah on November 1, 2001 9:31:49 am
Mohajir,
Thanks for the article on the Pakistani anti war/anti nuke group. It was extremely informative.
Do any Chowkies know how to get in contact with this group?
regards
Thanks for the article on the Pakistani anti war/anti nuke group. It was extremely informative.
Do any Chowkies know how to get in contact with this group?
regards
#218 Posted by semipreciousme on November 1, 2001 9:31:49 am
Gowardhan
“When Pakistani children are taught this hatred, what is the chance of meeting a good Pakistani?”
…with all that baggage you carry around….you probably wouldn’t know even if you were hit over the head by one…
“When Pakistani children are taught this hatred, what is the chance of meeting a good Pakistani?”
…with all that baggage you carry around….you probably wouldn’t know even if you were hit over the head by one…
#217 Posted by ylh on November 1, 2001 9:31:49 am
tahmed,
The way I see it each `national` group will have a fair share, or `globalization` will be a pipe dream. If indeed there is unity in diversity, then what is there to stop fully independent, confident and secure nation-states to come together in a confederation of common humanity? There I submit that common moral values will reign supreme.
If we do pit globalization against nationalism for no matter how noble of a reason, will only lead to more division. Its time idealistic globalists started pursuing their dream according to reality factor... Outwardlooking Nationalism should be harnessed for a globalist society.
It goes beyond culture ofcourse one world without political divisions, no matter how noble an ideal, means loss of sovereignty for the Majority of the World`s national/cultural groups.
What I am trying to say is that a world without nation-states is a world where there will be abuse of power and resources... Who is going to get what? Chinese people will be the largest group... Indians second largest and I am sorry, what I have seen of people like Gowardhan and others, I am sorry I cant live in world where Indians will have distinct political advantage over me...
Again you will come to cause and effect... but the fact remains, we will not be one but many .. we will be in different groups, with different languages, different cultures, and different religions... diversity will be crushed in United World without nations...
On the other hand, I suggest the setting up of a World Government on the lines of a confederation. The World Government can enter to Political contract with its constituents, the Nation-states.
Hence instead of loathing the idea of nationhood and nationalism, its time everyone started respecting the other`s right to `nationhood` ... especially people like yourself who love cracking rather unfunny jokes at the expense of people like myself..
In other words you are formulating an ideology ridden World state extremely centralized and authoritarian... whereas, I am speaking of a democratic union of the people of world through their representatives : the Nation-states.
So here is how Nationhood figures into `globalization` of the World today.
As for your `cause and effect theory` ... I `ll give you a simple answer : FREEDOM! Freedom to associate oneself with whoever one wants... freedom from imposed ideals of self professed humanists and terrorists alike!
And here is a more `assertive` source:
United Nations Human Rights Declaration Article 15 Point 1:
`Everyone has the right to a nationality.`
By mocking me for exercising my right to Nationality you are as oppressive as the terrorists who bombed the World trade center... If you have the right to be a Muslim, and profess Islam as your religion, I have a right to be a Pakistani and call Pakistan my nation. Who are you to say what is important and what is not!
The way I see it each `national` group will have a fair share, or `globalization` will be a pipe dream. If indeed there is unity in diversity, then what is there to stop fully independent, confident and secure nation-states to come together in a confederation of common humanity? There I submit that common moral values will reign supreme.
If we do pit globalization against nationalism for no matter how noble of a reason, will only lead to more division. Its time idealistic globalists started pursuing their dream according to reality factor... Outwardlooking Nationalism should be harnessed for a globalist society.
It goes beyond culture ofcourse one world without political divisions, no matter how noble an ideal, means loss of sovereignty for the Majority of the World`s national/cultural groups.
What I am trying to say is that a world without nation-states is a world where there will be abuse of power and resources... Who is going to get what? Chinese people will be the largest group... Indians second largest and I am sorry, what I have seen of people like Gowardhan and others, I am sorry I cant live in world where Indians will have distinct political advantage over me...
Again you will come to cause and effect... but the fact remains, we will not be one but many .. we will be in different groups, with different languages, different cultures, and different religions... diversity will be crushed in United World without nations...
On the other hand, I suggest the setting up of a World Government on the lines of a confederation. The World Government can enter to Political contract with its constituents, the Nation-states.
Hence instead of loathing the idea of nationhood and nationalism, its time everyone started respecting the other`s right to `nationhood` ... especially people like yourself who love cracking rather unfunny jokes at the expense of people like myself..
In other words you are formulating an ideology ridden World state extremely centralized and authoritarian... whereas, I am speaking of a democratic union of the people of world through their representatives : the Nation-states.
So here is how Nationhood figures into `globalization` of the World today.
As for your `cause and effect theory` ... I `ll give you a simple answer : FREEDOM! Freedom to associate oneself with whoever one wants... freedom from imposed ideals of self professed humanists and terrorists alike!
And here is a more `assertive` source:
United Nations Human Rights Declaration Article 15 Point 1:
`Everyone has the right to a nationality.`
By mocking me for exercising my right to Nationality you are as oppressive as the terrorists who bombed the World trade center... If you have the right to be a Muslim, and profess Islam as your religion, I have a right to be a Pakistani and call Pakistan my nation. Who are you to say what is important and what is not!
#216 Posted by Aisha_Sarwari on November 1, 2001 9:31:49 am
To even think that my name would be associated in anyway with the name of an Indian loser like Bhartiya Musalman is disgusting. Let me put all the rumors to rest. Bhartiya Musalman has never asked my hand in marriage, nor do I think any indian fool would dare to.Like I said before, I`d rather marry a Pakistani Hindu than marry an Indian Muslim. From what I understand Yasser threw in that line to detrack bhartiya`s already fantastic and nonsensical argument.
Please keep me out of this nonsense in future.
Thankyou
Aisha
Please keep me out of this nonsense in future.
Thankyou
Aisha
#215 Posted by shammi on November 1, 2001 9:31:49 am
Re: Stuka
My point was that the `rest of India (
My point was that the `rest of India (
#213 Posted by stuka on November 1, 2001 9:31:49 am
You may have gone to Hindu fundamentalist RSS schools in Punjab. I dont know about their books.
??!!??? Dude Gowardhan, I swear to you I never went to RSS schools in Punjab. I am a Punjabi yes, but from New Delhi, and in fact have never been to East Punjab outside of Chandigarh.
And no, the Khaki chaddis of the RSS never were a sartorial attraction to me. All the examples you give me of amity, Sikh Gurus, Mughals etc etc, have nothing to do with Pakistan. They are to do with the history of India, and yes, we made our choice, that we will not differentiate on the basis of religion.
Coming to Pakistan, exactly what were we taught about Barrister Jinnah. Were we taight that he was against the introduction of religion to Politics? Gandhi`s favourite Muslims, The Ali Brothers, were we taught that they were fundamentalists? Anyway, this history debate is going on and on, the point is what can your opinions do for you? What will the hatred achieve for you. If there is an action against you, there should and will be a retaliation. If the Pakis kill us with hatred, and we kill them with sadness in our hearts, trust me, it won`t make a difference to the dead.
??!!??? Dude Gowardhan, I swear to you I never went to RSS schools in Punjab. I am a Punjabi yes, but from New Delhi, and in fact have never been to East Punjab outside of Chandigarh.
And no, the Khaki chaddis of the RSS never were a sartorial attraction to me. All the examples you give me of amity, Sikh Gurus, Mughals etc etc, have nothing to do with Pakistan. They are to do with the history of India, and yes, we made our choice, that we will not differentiate on the basis of religion.
Coming to Pakistan, exactly what were we taught about Barrister Jinnah. Were we taight that he was against the introduction of religion to Politics? Gandhi`s favourite Muslims, The Ali Brothers, were we taught that they were fundamentalists? Anyway, this history debate is going on and on, the point is what can your opinions do for you? What will the hatred achieve for you. If there is an action against you, there should and will be a retaliation. If the Pakis kill us with hatred, and we kill them with sadness in our hearts, trust me, it won`t make a difference to the dead.
#212 Posted by scout on October 31, 2001 12:17:22 pm
A message from Salman Ahmad of Junoon:
Please donate to the Afghan Refugee Fund, a way Pakistanis around the world can help these poor people out.
UNITED FOR PEACE FUND
muslim commercial bank,
zamzama branch 1443
karachi,pakistan
US$ account # 105-1
The swift code(routing number for the mcb branch)
is: MUCBPKKAA
intermediate bank: CITIBANK N.A.
111,wall street,new york 10043 usa
1096-0607 USD
swift code CITIUS33
Please donate to the Afghan Refugee Fund, a way Pakistanis around the world can help these poor people out.
UNITED FOR PEACE FUND
muslim commercial bank,
zamzama branch 1443
karachi,pakistan
US$ account # 105-1
The swift code(routing number for the mcb branch)
is: MUCBPKKAA
intermediate bank: CITIBANK N.A.
111,wall street,new york 10043 usa
1096-0607 USD
swift code CITIUS33
#211 Posted by anNy on October 31, 2001 12:17:22 pm
mr.gowy:
``I can bet you that many *nice * pakistanis interacting on Chowk dont believe in their heart that Hindus are equal human beings. In time of crunch, these Pakistanis will drop their Hindu friends and go back to bigotry taught to them since birth. ``
may i assure you that i believe youre my equal (maybe, just maybe even nicer) and in times of crunches (my gramer is atrocious) i wouldnt drop any of my hindi friends (real life ones) and also i havent been taught bigotry..i have been taught that achae insaan ka takaaza yae hae kae har insaan kee izzat karrae aur kabhi kisee ka dil nahin dukhai...thats what being a good human and a good musalman is about, in my home and that of a lot of people over here
tear me apart now
``I can bet you that many *nice * pakistanis interacting on Chowk dont believe in their heart that Hindus are equal human beings. In time of crunch, these Pakistanis will drop their Hindu friends and go back to bigotry taught to them since birth. ``
may i assure you that i believe youre my equal (maybe, just maybe even nicer) and in times of crunches (my gramer is atrocious) i wouldnt drop any of my hindi friends (real life ones) and also i havent been taught bigotry..i have been taught that achae insaan ka takaaza yae hae kae har insaan kee izzat karrae aur kabhi kisee ka dil nahin dukhai...thats what being a good human and a good musalman is about, in my home and that of a lot of people over here
tear me apart now
#208 Posted by ZafarA on October 31, 2001 12:17:22 pm
Reply Binifer # 203``
``n0ooooooo000000ooooooooozafarbhaaaaaaai``
But Bwoss, main ne tho kuchh nahin kaha...
:-(
``n0ooooooo000000ooooooooozafarbhaaaaaaai``
But Bwoss, main ne tho kuchh nahin kaha...
:-(
#207 Posted by rsaxena on October 31, 2001 12:17:22 pm
Re: scout
``That`s so mean dude.``
Oh please...she`s called me far worse (and for no good reason).
``That`s so mean dude.``
Oh please...she`s called me far worse (and for no good reason).
#206 Posted by scout on October 30, 2001 10:45:02 pm
Suxena #197,
``Re: binifer
``i just collected my shadi ka jora which is a bright red backless, sleeveless sharaara.``
does it come with 2 horns and a tail?``
That`s so mean dude.
Binifer,
Question: I may be wrong but isn`t a sharaara the skirt part of the outfit? And if that`s backless, you`re definitely going to hell, gandi bachi :)
``Re: binifer
``i just collected my shadi ka jora which is a bright red backless, sleeveless sharaara.``
does it come with 2 horns and a tail?``
That`s so mean dude.
Binifer,
Question: I may be wrong but isn`t a sharaara the skirt part of the outfit? And if that`s backless, you`re definitely going to hell, gandi bachi :)
#205 Posted by mohajir on October 30, 2001 5:27:52 pm
Pakistan’s Peaceniks: A Tiny Antiwar Movement Takes on Nukes, Military Spending, and Dictatorship
By Michael Kamber Village Voice Writer
ISLAMABAD, PAKISTAN—``This is not the dawn we had dreamed of, this blood-stained dawn,`` wrote the Pakistani poet Faiz Ahmad Faiz of his nation`s violent birth. In 1947, when British India was divided into Muslim Pakistan and the largely Hindu India, the trains arrived silently at their destinations—their cargo a bumper crop of death; thousands of Muslims shot and stabbed by maddened crowds as they fled west. Half a million people would die on both sides before the carnage ended.
• Anthrax & AIDS: The Psychic Toll
• Wartime Dangers Have Congress Running Scared
• Dennis Rivera, Labor`s Lost Ranger
• Listen to Village Voice Radio
Pakistan was born in strife; in strife it remains, engaged in a nuclear standoff with India, deeply enmeshed in military actions in Afghanistan (news - web sites) and the disputed province of Kashmir (news - web sites), and spending $2.9 billion a year on guns and soldiers. Today the populace takes comfort in the machine-gun toting soldiers that loiter in public places and street corners across the country.
The country`s minuscule peace movement has its work cut out for it. ``I don`t know if I would even call it a peace movement. It is something—maybe an initiative?`` says Saba Gul Khattak of the Citizens` Peace Committee, a group of 100 or so activists in Islamabad. The CPC is part of a large coalition, the Pakistan Peace Committee, an umbrella organization of about 1000 peace activists in this nation of 140 million.
The political views of this small group are wildly divergent from those of the average Pakistani, who could be described as pro-military, pro-nuclear, deeply hostile towards India, and content with Pakistan`s military dictatorship. The peace activists conduct community workshops and hold small demonstrations and press conferences in the face of skepticism from the populace and harassment from the authorities. Their goal, they say, is to raise awareness about what they see as the dangers of Pakistan`s massive militarization, its lack of democratic government, and the effects of economic globalization.
If there was a catalyzing event for Pakistan`s antiwar movement, it was the country`s first nuclear tests, which took place in 1998. Arch-rival India had provocatively detonated five nuclear devices. A wave of near hysteria swept Pakistan; the press and public demanded a response to the saber rattling. Faced with U.S. sanctions that would cost the country hundreds of millions of dollars, Pakistan nevertheless went ahead with its own series of trials; six bombs were exploded, doing India one better. Citizens celebrated in the streets and the government made May 28, the day of the first successful trial, a national holiday. (Simultaneously, it declared that May 2, the worldwide labor holiday, would no longer be celebrated.) Echoing the sentiment of many, an Islamabad resident explained recently, ``We never felt secure until we had our own bomb.``
A small group of academics and NGO (nongovernmental organization) employees—policy planners, aid workers, and union organizers—was stunned by these sentiments and banded together to form the CPC. ``We don`t need nuclear bombs in our country,`` said Roshan, a CPC member who asked that her real name not be used. ``If we stop making bombs, all that money can be spent on schools, hospitals, and development.``
CPC member Saba Gul Khattak is the daughter and granddaughter of army officers. She is now researching Pakistan`s history of militarization, as well the peace movements of its early years. She vividly remembers the 1965 and 1971 wars with India, the bombs exploding, the roar of airplanes and tracers filling the night sky. She argues that there has always been a peace movement in Pakistan, but that much of it occurred in literature and poetry, which was banned by the government, allowing no consciousness to take root. ``In a state-sanctioned discourse these thoughts were wiped out, and so there is no collective memory,`` she explains. ``If the state bans your voice, then your words become just a solitary event that takes place, and with time, it fades from memory.``
Today, state-sanctioned obstacles to peace organizing continue. Aasim Sajjad, a CPC mainstay and union organizer, can`t remember how many times he has been jailed here. ``Maybe a dozen,`` he says. His crime? Publicly criticizing—and demonstrating against—the military dictatorship of General Pervez Musharraf. ``All the power in Pakistan is in one man,`` says Izmat Shahjehan, a fiery, outspoken CPC member. ``He`s the president, the chief of the army, the prime minister. Parliament has been dissolved. He has no constituency—he`s never been elected—and now he alone sits down with Bush and makes all decisions in the name of the people of Pakistan. We know this military government is going to stay—the U.S. supports it—but democracy has never been more important for us.``
Yet most Pakistanis much prefer General Musharraf to the man from whom he seized control, the elected but unpopular Nawaz Sharif. ``For most Pakistanis, the concept of peace and democracy is meaningless,`` says Sajjad. ``It does not really mean anything unless linked to people putting food on the table. There was a military coup almost exactly two years ago [in which Musharraf took power]. Nobody said a word. Democracy in and of itself is irrelevant to these people.``
Sajjad sees the current debate over the war in Afghanistan as a window of opportunity, one he is trying to exploit. He believes unionizing workers is an important step in getting them involved in the democratic process, and he is trying to organize brick-workers, shoemakers, and taxi drivers. ``We need to link them to other groups and explain how the democratization of the state will benefit them,`` he says.
But unionizing here is a difficult process. Only 4 percent of the workforce is unionized, and unions are forbidden in the country`s large industrial export zones. Students are forbidden from organizing as well, depriving Pakistan`s antiwar movement of a natural source of activists.
A further obstacle is the class divide between the activists and Pakistan`s proletariat. Most Pakistanis are agrarian, illiterate, and desperately poor. Per capita income is $480 a year. The CPC is made up of the upper-middle-class city dwellers. There are several Ph.D.`s among its members and many have studied abroad, usually in the United States or England.
The class divide was clearly on display at a mid-October press conference held at the Marriott hotel. The group held the briefing in English, in hopes of attracting the foreign press. But the English-language media was otherwise occupied, and only the local Urdu-language press attended, most of whose members know only rudimentary English. ``Our speaker was speaking in the most complex academic jargon,`` recalls Roshan. ``Intents are good, but the local journalists couldn`t even follow what he was saying. I kept saying, `Let`s switch to Urdu,` but he just kept going.`` The CPC presentation was followed by a barrage of hostile, accusatory questions from the local press.
Roshan goes on to tell an anecdote about a friend who announced she was planning to take her servant to a CPC demonstration. Was the friend trying to increase consciousness among her employees? asked Roshan. ``No,`` came the reply. ``It`s hot out, and if I get tired of holding this placard, she can carry it around for me.``
Sajjad listened to Roshan talk on a recent evening. ``What we`re saying is unintelligible to others,`` he agreed. ``Unless we change that, ordinary Pakistanis will never hear our message.`` Still, the CPC press conferences and demonstrations do occasionally get airtime. Often they are ridiculed, portrayed as unpatriotic, or even subject to veiled threats, yet even the brief television appearances are a valuable outlet for the group`s message.
And there have been other successes as well. Shandana Khan, like most members, an employee of one of the dozens of NGOs scattered throughout Islamabad, recently sent out an e-mail to 18 friends and colleagues asking for funds and materials to aid the incoming Afghan refugees. Despite her objections, the e-mail was passed on, eventually arriving in places as far-flung as Singapore and the U.S. She has been deluged with donations and supplies. To date, five truckloads of food and blankets have been sent to Afghan refugees.
Other members see the antiwar efforts as intrinsically tied to an antiglobalization campaign. Pakistan`s economy is in tatters; unemployment is rampant among young men, whom the activists see as providing cannon fodder for militant fundamentalist groups that indoctrinate and send teenagers to fight in Kashmir and Afghanistan. ``My own cousins say, `What can I do, our kids are out in the street, getting into trouble, they have nothing to do,` `` says Shahjehan. ``They say, `We`ll send them to a madrassa (a religious school where many Pakistani youth are taught by fundamentalist teachers), they`ll learn the Qur`an. It will pacify them.` Now my brother`s three sons have met these recruiters, and they want to go to Afghanistan to fight with the Taliban. They say, `We get three thousand rupees as a bonus (about $50), we get to see another country, and if we`re killed, we get a one-way ticket to heaven.` ``
In various forms, Pakistan has always had a small progressive movement. Yet for many Pakistani peace activists, it was time spent as students in England and America that helped to politicize them—that reinforced their belief in democracy and protest.
And yet today they are fighting against what they regard as the pernicious influences and policies of the West. Anti-American sentiment runs deep among many activists, so deep that it has created schisms within the group. ``Who`s the real terrorist? America!`` was the favored chant at the CPC`s last rally, a lackluster affair held last week and attended by perhaps 20 activists, 40 journalists, and 80 police officers. Towards the end of the rally, Pervez Hoodbhoy, a committee member, could take it no more. ``I lost my temper,`` he recalls. ``I started yelling, `If you`re going to talk about terrorists, let`s shout about Osama first, then America.` ``
Hoodbhoy talked about his differences with the majority of CPC members last week as he sat in his modest home on the grounds of Quaid-i-Azam University, where he has spent 28 years as a professor of nuclear physics. ``How hard it is that I came back to Pakistan because of the crimes of Vietnam and that I should be here today stopping people from shouting death to America,`` he says. Hoodbhoy became radicalized during his time at MIT, where he arrived in 1968. He attended SDS rallies, participated in building takeovers, and later spurned job offers in the U.S. ``Here in Pakistan, I can make more of a difference,`` he says. But he is increasingly disturbed by the attitudes of many of his fellow citizens.
``September 11 was mass murder,`` he says, ``And it should be condemned. People who talk about peace have no business saying the U.S. brought it upon itself. It`s one thing to try to understand the roots, but first you should condemn this mass murder. I`m not finding the condemnation.``
Hoodbhoy had a seminar planned for September 12. He changed the topic to a discussion about the attack, seeking to use the event as a catalyst for change. Among many of the students there was a celebratory mood, he recalls. ``They said, `Worse things have happened in the world, many of them perpetrated by the U.S.—why are you making a big deal out of this?` I said, `Before our eyes, we saw the deaths of thousands of people. This is a defining moment in history.` `` Through the seminar, Hoodbhoy believes, he was able to remind a few students about the concept of a shared humanity.
One of only half a dozen nuclear physicists in Pakistan, Hoodbhoy understands better than most the dangers he says are inherent in his country`s nuclear program. ``In this century we may very well see the use of nuclear weapons,`` he says. ``There are many scenarios. There could be fighting along the line of control (in Kashmir), during which India pursues Jihadis (guerrillas fighting against India) into Pakistan, and there is a conventional war. Pakistan is losing—before the major cities are lost, we use our nuclear weapons. And it would not be just one bomb, it will be many. They will respond. We`re talking about tens of millions of people dying.``
Hoodbhoy differs from his fellow peace activists in another way as well. Although he is against war on principle, Hoodbhoy is so alarmed by the extremist form of Islam that has swept through Pakistan and Afghanistan that he sees this war as ``an opportunity for Pakistan to rid itself of something dangerous. If [the] U.S. does not succeed in driving out the Taliban, we`re sunk. [The fundamentalists] have changed the character of Pakistan—they`ve taken us back and back and back,`` he says. ``In Malakand [a city in western Pakistan], they have established Islamic penal codes. They cut off hands, stone people to death, smash televisions. They`re the barbarians of our times. They`re against culture, emancipation of women.``
Ten years ago, Hoodbhoy says, a woman in a burkah, a full body covering, stood out on the university campus. Today he has three such students in a class with 13 women; seven others wear hijab, which covers their faces, leaving only a slit for their eyes. Only three go about with just a scarf over their heads.
A former dictator, General Zia-ul-Haq planted the seeds of Islamic fundamentalism in the 1970s. His goal was to create a more conservative Islamic state, one that would be stalwart in the fight against India. By all accounts, that vision has come to pass. Over the last 20 years, the public schools have been ``Islamicized,`` the madrassas staffed with fundamentalist mullahs, and the country`s mood has shifted far to the right.
Faiza Mirza, a 36-year-old housewife, is part of this wave of fundamentalism. She lives with her husband and four children in a well-appointed concrete house in the city of Rawalpindi, not far from the raucous downtown area where tens of thousands of merchants and shoppers jam the narrow streets.
She does all the things housewives do the world over. She shops, meets with her children`s teachers, drives a car. But she is different from most Western women in that Islam is the guiding force in her life, and she believes that after puberty, women should not be seen uncovered by males outside the family. Accordingly, both she and her 15-year-old daughter, Fariha, wear the hijab.
Sitting in the living room recently, with the other children occasionally coming to listen in, Faiza and her oldest daughter spoke about their beliefs. ``If a woman is good-looking,`` explained the outspoken Fariha, ``men will treat her like she is important. They act like what is inside does not matter.`` Now that she has taken the hijab, she said, men treat her with far more respect. ``They have to pay attention to what is inside, not just appearances.``
Faiza is a supporter of Afghanistan`s Taliban government—after all, she says, ``under the Taliban, there are no guns [among the population], no drugs, no corruption; they are true believers.`` A college graduate, she thinks that the Taliban`s poor treatment of women has been exaggerated; in any case, their beliefs dovetail to a large degree with her own.
As for her own country, she says, ``The founders of Pakistan said, `What is the meaning of Pakistan? There is but one God: Allah.` There is no point in having Pakistan except to have an Islamic state.`` (In fact, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, the ``father of Pakistan,`` specifically conceived of the country as a secular state.) Like many here, Faiza is fearful of India and in favor of Pakistan`s nuclear weapons: ``If you have a strong neighbor, and he tries to take part of your house, you have to fight back,`` she explains.
Yet she agrees with the peace activists on one point. General Musharraf speaks without a mandate. If there were a democracy, she and other fundamentalists could elect a more conservative politician, one who shares her and her family`s views. If Pakistan`s leader were elected, she says, he or she never would have sided with the U.S. against the Taliban. And Faiza`s democracy has one caveat. ``Only those of sufficient moral standing should be allowed to vote,`` she says.
Both mother and daughter are well-educated and intelligent—they come across as reasonable people. ``People are the same the world over, we all want the same thing,`` she says. Then she reminds a visitor that Islam literally means peace.
It is Pakistanis like Faiza that the peace activists would like to reach. Yet the gaps between the two groups are immense. Part of the problem, some peace activists say, is that they have not found a way to explain their movement in a way that emphasizes Islam, an issue that is so central to the lives of many Pakistanis. As Roshan said recently, ``There is no movement per se. We have not been able to link our cause to that of the ordinary Pakistani.``
By Michael Kamber Village Voice Writer
ISLAMABAD, PAKISTAN—``This is not the dawn we had dreamed of, this blood-stained dawn,`` wrote the Pakistani poet Faiz Ahmad Faiz of his nation`s violent birth. In 1947, when British India was divided into Muslim Pakistan and the largely Hindu India, the trains arrived silently at their destinations—their cargo a bumper crop of death; thousands of Muslims shot and stabbed by maddened crowds as they fled west. Half a million people would die on both sides before the carnage ended.
• Anthrax & AIDS: The Psychic Toll
• Wartime Dangers Have Congress Running Scared
• Dennis Rivera, Labor`s Lost Ranger
• Listen to Village Voice Radio
Pakistan was born in strife; in strife it remains, engaged in a nuclear standoff with India, deeply enmeshed in military actions in Afghanistan (news - web sites) and the disputed province of Kashmir (news - web sites), and spending $2.9 billion a year on guns and soldiers. Today the populace takes comfort in the machine-gun toting soldiers that loiter in public places and street corners across the country.
The country`s minuscule peace movement has its work cut out for it. ``I don`t know if I would even call it a peace movement. It is something—maybe an initiative?`` says Saba Gul Khattak of the Citizens` Peace Committee, a group of 100 or so activists in Islamabad. The CPC is part of a large coalition, the Pakistan Peace Committee, an umbrella organization of about 1000 peace activists in this nation of 140 million.
The political views of this small group are wildly divergent from those of the average Pakistani, who could be described as pro-military, pro-nuclear, deeply hostile towards India, and content with Pakistan`s military dictatorship. The peace activists conduct community workshops and hold small demonstrations and press conferences in the face of skepticism from the populace and harassment from the authorities. Their goal, they say, is to raise awareness about what they see as the dangers of Pakistan`s massive militarization, its lack of democratic government, and the effects of economic globalization.
If there was a catalyzing event for Pakistan`s antiwar movement, it was the country`s first nuclear tests, which took place in 1998. Arch-rival India had provocatively detonated five nuclear devices. A wave of near hysteria swept Pakistan; the press and public demanded a response to the saber rattling. Faced with U.S. sanctions that would cost the country hundreds of millions of dollars, Pakistan nevertheless went ahead with its own series of trials; six bombs were exploded, doing India one better. Citizens celebrated in the streets and the government made May 28, the day of the first successful trial, a national holiday. (Simultaneously, it declared that May 2, the worldwide labor holiday, would no longer be celebrated.) Echoing the sentiment of many, an Islamabad resident explained recently, ``We never felt secure until we had our own bomb.``
A small group of academics and NGO (nongovernmental organization) employees—policy planners, aid workers, and union organizers—was stunned by these sentiments and banded together to form the CPC. ``We don`t need nuclear bombs in our country,`` said Roshan, a CPC member who asked that her real name not be used. ``If we stop making bombs, all that money can be spent on schools, hospitals, and development.``
CPC member Saba Gul Khattak is the daughter and granddaughter of army officers. She is now researching Pakistan`s history of militarization, as well the peace movements of its early years. She vividly remembers the 1965 and 1971 wars with India, the bombs exploding, the roar of airplanes and tracers filling the night sky. She argues that there has always been a peace movement in Pakistan, but that much of it occurred in literature and poetry, which was banned by the government, allowing no consciousness to take root. ``In a state-sanctioned discourse these thoughts were wiped out, and so there is no collective memory,`` she explains. ``If the state bans your voice, then your words become just a solitary event that takes place, and with time, it fades from memory.``
Today, state-sanctioned obstacles to peace organizing continue. Aasim Sajjad, a CPC mainstay and union organizer, can`t remember how many times he has been jailed here. ``Maybe a dozen,`` he says. His crime? Publicly criticizing—and demonstrating against—the military dictatorship of General Pervez Musharraf. ``All the power in Pakistan is in one man,`` says Izmat Shahjehan, a fiery, outspoken CPC member. ``He`s the president, the chief of the army, the prime minister. Parliament has been dissolved. He has no constituency—he`s never been elected—and now he alone sits down with Bush and makes all decisions in the name of the people of Pakistan. We know this military government is going to stay—the U.S. supports it—but democracy has never been more important for us.``
Yet most Pakistanis much prefer General Musharraf to the man from whom he seized control, the elected but unpopular Nawaz Sharif. ``For most Pakistanis, the concept of peace and democracy is meaningless,`` says Sajjad. ``It does not really mean anything unless linked to people putting food on the table. There was a military coup almost exactly two years ago [in which Musharraf took power]. Nobody said a word. Democracy in and of itself is irrelevant to these people.``
Sajjad sees the current debate over the war in Afghanistan as a window of opportunity, one he is trying to exploit. He believes unionizing workers is an important step in getting them involved in the democratic process, and he is trying to organize brick-workers, shoemakers, and taxi drivers. ``We need to link them to other groups and explain how the democratization of the state will benefit them,`` he says.
But unionizing here is a difficult process. Only 4 percent of the workforce is unionized, and unions are forbidden in the country`s large industrial export zones. Students are forbidden from organizing as well, depriving Pakistan`s antiwar movement of a natural source of activists.
A further obstacle is the class divide between the activists and Pakistan`s proletariat. Most Pakistanis are agrarian, illiterate, and desperately poor. Per capita income is $480 a year. The CPC is made up of the upper-middle-class city dwellers. There are several Ph.D.`s among its members and many have studied abroad, usually in the United States or England.
The class divide was clearly on display at a mid-October press conference held at the Marriott hotel. The group held the briefing in English, in hopes of attracting the foreign press. But the English-language media was otherwise occupied, and only the local Urdu-language press attended, most of whose members know only rudimentary English. ``Our speaker was speaking in the most complex academic jargon,`` recalls Roshan. ``Intents are good, but the local journalists couldn`t even follow what he was saying. I kept saying, `Let`s switch to Urdu,` but he just kept going.`` The CPC presentation was followed by a barrage of hostile, accusatory questions from the local press.
Roshan goes on to tell an anecdote about a friend who announced she was planning to take her servant to a CPC demonstration. Was the friend trying to increase consciousness among her employees? asked Roshan. ``No,`` came the reply. ``It`s hot out, and if I get tired of holding this placard, she can carry it around for me.``
Sajjad listened to Roshan talk on a recent evening. ``What we`re saying is unintelligible to others,`` he agreed. ``Unless we change that, ordinary Pakistanis will never hear our message.`` Still, the CPC press conferences and demonstrations do occasionally get airtime. Often they are ridiculed, portrayed as unpatriotic, or even subject to veiled threats, yet even the brief television appearances are a valuable outlet for the group`s message.
And there have been other successes as well. Shandana Khan, like most members, an employee of one of the dozens of NGOs scattered throughout Islamabad, recently sent out an e-mail to 18 friends and colleagues asking for funds and materials to aid the incoming Afghan refugees. Despite her objections, the e-mail was passed on, eventually arriving in places as far-flung as Singapore and the U.S. She has been deluged with donations and supplies. To date, five truckloads of food and blankets have been sent to Afghan refugees.
Other members see the antiwar efforts as intrinsically tied to an antiglobalization campaign. Pakistan`s economy is in tatters; unemployment is rampant among young men, whom the activists see as providing cannon fodder for militant fundamentalist groups that indoctrinate and send teenagers to fight in Kashmir and Afghanistan. ``My own cousins say, `What can I do, our kids are out in the street, getting into trouble, they have nothing to do,` `` says Shahjehan. ``They say, `We`ll send them to a madrassa (a religious school where many Pakistani youth are taught by fundamentalist teachers), they`ll learn the Qur`an. It will pacify them.` Now my brother`s three sons have met these recruiters, and they want to go to Afghanistan to fight with the Taliban. They say, `We get three thousand rupees as a bonus (about $50), we get to see another country, and if we`re killed, we get a one-way ticket to heaven.` ``
In various forms, Pakistan has always had a small progressive movement. Yet for many Pakistani peace activists, it was time spent as students in England and America that helped to politicize them—that reinforced their belief in democracy and protest.
And yet today they are fighting against what they regard as the pernicious influences and policies of the West. Anti-American sentiment runs deep among many activists, so deep that it has created schisms within the group. ``Who`s the real terrorist? America!`` was the favored chant at the CPC`s last rally, a lackluster affair held last week and attended by perhaps 20 activists, 40 journalists, and 80 police officers. Towards the end of the rally, Pervez Hoodbhoy, a committee member, could take it no more. ``I lost my temper,`` he recalls. ``I started yelling, `If you`re going to talk about terrorists, let`s shout about Osama first, then America.` ``
Hoodbhoy talked about his differences with the majority of CPC members last week as he sat in his modest home on the grounds of Quaid-i-Azam University, where he has spent 28 years as a professor of nuclear physics. ``How hard it is that I came back to Pakistan because of the crimes of Vietnam and that I should be here today stopping people from shouting death to America,`` he says. Hoodbhoy became radicalized during his time at MIT, where he arrived in 1968. He attended SDS rallies, participated in building takeovers, and later spurned job offers in the U.S. ``Here in Pakistan, I can make more of a difference,`` he says. But he is increasingly disturbed by the attitudes of many of his fellow citizens.
``September 11 was mass murder,`` he says, ``And it should be condemned. People who talk about peace have no business saying the U.S. brought it upon itself. It`s one thing to try to understand the roots, but first you should condemn this mass murder. I`m not finding the condemnation.``
Hoodbhoy had a seminar planned for September 12. He changed the topic to a discussion about the attack, seeking to use the event as a catalyst for change. Among many of the students there was a celebratory mood, he recalls. ``They said, `Worse things have happened in the world, many of them perpetrated by the U.S.—why are you making a big deal out of this?` I said, `Before our eyes, we saw the deaths of thousands of people. This is a defining moment in history.` `` Through the seminar, Hoodbhoy believes, he was able to remind a few students about the concept of a shared humanity.
One of only half a dozen nuclear physicists in Pakistan, Hoodbhoy understands better than most the dangers he says are inherent in his country`s nuclear program. ``In this century we may very well see the use of nuclear weapons,`` he says. ``There are many scenarios. There could be fighting along the line of control (in Kashmir), during which India pursues Jihadis (guerrillas fighting against India) into Pakistan, and there is a conventional war. Pakistan is losing—before the major cities are lost, we use our nuclear weapons. And it would not be just one bomb, it will be many. They will respond. We`re talking about tens of millions of people dying.``
Hoodbhoy differs from his fellow peace activists in another way as well. Although he is against war on principle, Hoodbhoy is so alarmed by the extremist form of Islam that has swept through Pakistan and Afghanistan that he sees this war as ``an opportunity for Pakistan to rid itself of something dangerous. If [the] U.S. does not succeed in driving out the Taliban, we`re sunk. [The fundamentalists] have changed the character of Pakistan—they`ve taken us back and back and back,`` he says. ``In Malakand [a city in western Pakistan], they have established Islamic penal codes. They cut off hands, stone people to death, smash televisions. They`re the barbarians of our times. They`re against culture, emancipation of women.``
Ten years ago, Hoodbhoy says, a woman in a burkah, a full body covering, stood out on the university campus. Today he has three such students in a class with 13 women; seven others wear hijab, which covers their faces, leaving only a slit for their eyes. Only three go about with just a scarf over their heads.
A former dictator, General Zia-ul-Haq planted the seeds of Islamic fundamentalism in the 1970s. His goal was to create a more conservative Islamic state, one that would be stalwart in the fight against India. By all accounts, that vision has come to pass. Over the last 20 years, the public schools have been ``Islamicized,`` the madrassas staffed with fundamentalist mullahs, and the country`s mood has shifted far to the right.
Faiza Mirza, a 36-year-old housewife, is part of this wave of fundamentalism. She lives with her husband and four children in a well-appointed concrete house in the city of Rawalpindi, not far from the raucous downtown area where tens of thousands of merchants and shoppers jam the narrow streets.
She does all the things housewives do the world over. She shops, meets with her children`s teachers, drives a car. But she is different from most Western women in that Islam is the guiding force in her life, and she believes that after puberty, women should not be seen uncovered by males outside the family. Accordingly, both she and her 15-year-old daughter, Fariha, wear the hijab.
Sitting in the living room recently, with the other children occasionally coming to listen in, Faiza and her oldest daughter spoke about their beliefs. ``If a woman is good-looking,`` explained the outspoken Fariha, ``men will treat her like she is important. They act like what is inside does not matter.`` Now that she has taken the hijab, she said, men treat her with far more respect. ``They have to pay attention to what is inside, not just appearances.``
Faiza is a supporter of Afghanistan`s Taliban government—after all, she says, ``under the Taliban, there are no guns [among the population], no drugs, no corruption; they are true believers.`` A college graduate, she thinks that the Taliban`s poor treatment of women has been exaggerated; in any case, their beliefs dovetail to a large degree with her own.
As for her own country, she says, ``The founders of Pakistan said, `What is the meaning of Pakistan? There is but one God: Allah.` There is no point in having Pakistan except to have an Islamic state.`` (In fact, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, the ``father of Pakistan,`` specifically conceived of the country as a secular state.) Like many here, Faiza is fearful of India and in favor of Pakistan`s nuclear weapons: ``If you have a strong neighbor, and he tries to take part of your house, you have to fight back,`` she explains.
Yet she agrees with the peace activists on one point. General Musharraf speaks without a mandate. If there were a democracy, she and other fundamentalists could elect a more conservative politician, one who shares her and her family`s views. If Pakistan`s leader were elected, she says, he or she never would have sided with the U.S. against the Taliban. And Faiza`s democracy has one caveat. ``Only those of sufficient moral standing should be allowed to vote,`` she says.
Both mother and daughter are well-educated and intelligent—they come across as reasonable people. ``People are the same the world over, we all want the same thing,`` she says. Then she reminds a visitor that Islam literally means peace.
It is Pakistanis like Faiza that the peace activists would like to reach. Yet the gaps between the two groups are immense. Part of the problem, some peace activists say, is that they have not found a way to explain their movement in a way that emphasizes Islam, an issue that is so central to the lives of many Pakistanis. As Roshan said recently, ``There is no movement per se. We have not been able to link our cause to that of the ordinary Pakistani.``
#204 Posted by Binifer on October 30, 2001 5:10:43 pm
n0ooooooo000000ooooooooozafarbhaaaaaaai
no sleeves, no back
i like it like this
waisae bhi dozakh mae tau jaana hee hae, might as well look good here and then go, no?
(I hope that it was your own decision than otherwise.)
sawaal daikhain- aap ko kaheen sae bhi lagta hae ke merae saath koee zabardastee kar sakae ga?
no sleeves, no back
i like it like this
waisae bhi dozakh mae tau jaana hee hae, might as well look good here and then go, no?
(I hope that it was your own decision than otherwise.)
sawaal daikhain- aap ko kaheen sae bhi lagta hae ke merae saath koee zabardastee kar sakae ga?
#203 Posted by shammi on October 30, 2001 5:10:43 pm
my last post
replace `biased` with `unbiased`. Sorry!
replace `biased` with `unbiased`. Sorry!
#202 Posted by Bapu on October 30, 2001 5:10:43 pm
Reply #: 187
Zafar Al-Talib
Reply Satyavadi # 165
“Now did this BM guy really know Sarwari? Has he really gone to SJ to really ask her hand in marriage? What will YLH do now, since he has been openly courting and maska-maroing Sarwari on Chowk for a long time? Where does Saxena fit in?”
Cineblitz has an opening for you!
Zafar,
Your Shubh Chintak
POSITION OF A PRINCIPAL/VICE PRINCIPAL AT AL-ZEHRA
COLLEGE, SYDNEY
Applications are invited from educated persons interested in
providing educational leadership in an Islamic
College, offering primary school from KG to Year 6.
The College with a caring environment of 230 students, follows the curriculum, guidelines and syllabus of the NSW Board of Studies. The staff is composed of both Muslim and Non Muslim teachers who cooperate in a friendly atmosphere sensitive to the needs and interests of Muslims students and their parents living
in contemporary Australia.
ESSENTIAL CRITERIA
- Appropriate tertiary qualification
- Outstanding leadership
- Either a Muslim or having an informed and sensitive
understanding of Islam, prefebaly in an educational setting.
DESIRABLE CRITERIA
- Famaliarity with multicultural education and issues of cultural sensitivity
- Experience with the employment and supervision of the staff
- Experience with the development, implementation and monitoring of curriculum and its assessment at school level
SALARY PACKAGE IS NEGOTIABLE and a working visa would
be arranged for the selected candidate.
Applications addressing each of the above criteria, must include the names, addresses and contact numbers of two appropriate referees. Application should be forwarded to:
THE CHAIRMAN
Al-Zehra College Pty Ltd
3-5 Wollongong Road
Ancliff NSW 2205
AUSTRALIA
Zafar Al-Talib
Reply Satyavadi # 165
“Now did this BM guy really know Sarwari? Has he really gone to SJ to really ask her hand in marriage? What will YLH do now, since he has been openly courting and maska-maroing Sarwari on Chowk for a long time? Where does Saxena fit in?”
Cineblitz has an opening for you!
Zafar,
Your Shubh Chintak
POSITION OF A PRINCIPAL/VICE PRINCIPAL AT AL-ZEHRA
COLLEGE, SYDNEY
Applications are invited from educated persons interested in
providing educational leadership in an Islamic
College, offering primary school from KG to Year 6.
The College with a caring environment of 230 students, follows the curriculum, guidelines and syllabus of the NSW Board of Studies. The staff is composed of both Muslim and Non Muslim teachers who cooperate in a friendly atmosphere sensitive to the needs and interests of Muslims students and their parents living
in contemporary Australia.
ESSENTIAL CRITERIA
- Appropriate tertiary qualification
- Outstanding leadership
- Either a Muslim or having an informed and sensitive
understanding of Islam, prefebaly in an educational setting.
DESIRABLE CRITERIA
- Famaliarity with multicultural education and issues of cultural sensitivity
- Experience with the employment and supervision of the staff
- Experience with the development, implementation and monitoring of curriculum and its assessment at school level
SALARY PACKAGE IS NEGOTIABLE and a working visa would
be arranged for the selected candidate.
Applications addressing each of the above criteria, must include the names, addresses and contact numbers of two appropriate referees. Application should be forwarded to:
THE CHAIRMAN
Al-Zehra College Pty Ltd
3-5 Wollongong Road
Ancliff NSW 2205
AUSTRALIA
#201 Posted by stuka on October 30, 2001 5:10:43 pm
Shammi:
let me make a wild guess -- you are a Punjabi with roots in what is today Pakistan, and have met older relatives who passed on tales to you about life in undivided India.
Yes, full marks for guessing the obvious ;) The stories the older relatives passed on about life in Undivided India were always positive. Partition was looked upon as an aberration, not destiny. And here Shammi, is the greatest Schism that exists between Indian and Pakistani memories of Partition. What for older generation Indians is a ``mistake``, is a fulfillment of destiny for them. And it is liberal Indians like you, who try to brush Indian-Pak differences under the carpet, with a ``Maan na Maan, Mai Tera Mehman`` attitude of ``Hum sab ek hain``, are the biggest creators of Pakistani insecurity and Paranoia. Why can`t we acknowledge our differences, and then try and resolve them instead of saying there are no differences? (Rhetorical question, not aimed at you)
The refugees who still remember Pakistan, as ``hamara ghar``, are not doing either country a favor. If you meant to insinuate that the stories of Partion that I heard are responsible for my position against the Pakistani state, you are dead wrong. The bitterness of Hindu/Sikh refugees is not towards Jinnah, the Muslim League or even the Muslims who instead are looked upon as fellow sufferers of their own idiotic leadership, it is against Congress leaders, specifically Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.
``For Indians who do not fit the above category (greater than 70%, and increasing by day as the previous generations die), the `consider the Pakistani state our enemy country` either does not hold true, or will dilute over time.``
Well, the 30% that I belong to, by your estimate at least, have some curiosity and and hunger for Pakistani culture, literature, music, because we see a bit of ourselves in it. That is why I made a distinction between the Pakistani state, and the Pakistani people. I look forward to the posts of SameerJB, not for his politics, but for his commentary on culture and society to which my people are a part. My hatred for the policies of the Pakistani state, which are inmical to my country, are tempered by a knowledge that there is a Pakistan beyond press conferences, diplomatic manouvres, war mongering and calls for Jihad.
Now, consider people who are not of the 30% but the 70% (again your estimate)who have no such connection with Pakistan. I think the biggest Paki Hater on Chowk is Jay, a person from Kerala, or so he says, and exactly how did his views get affected by stories of Partition. People like Jay, and they are the ones of future generation, have no cultural affinity with Pakistan, view it as a foreign country, ad do not distinguish between the state and the people. Where exactly are they supposed to lose their hatred? What exactly is motivating them to NOT hate? It`s not the history boks, but present circumstances and differing view points fuelled by violence and righteousness, that cause a rift. Look at Samuel Hersh`s article which is posted below. Do you think the hatred he talks about is because of stories told by older generation Indians to young and pristine minds?
Look, this post, inspite of its appearence, is not pessimistic. I just say, lose the bhai bhai approach, take a pragmatic look at issues, try and solve them as best as you can, in peace or in war, and leave us 30% alone to romanticize our past and our divided culture.
let me make a wild guess -- you are a Punjabi with roots in what is today Pakistan, and have met older relatives who passed on tales to you about life in undivided India.
Yes, full marks for guessing the obvious ;) The stories the older relatives passed on about life in Undivided India were always positive. Partition was looked upon as an aberration, not destiny. And here Shammi, is the greatest Schism that exists between Indian and Pakistani memories of Partition. What for older generation Indians is a ``mistake``, is a fulfillment of destiny for them. And it is liberal Indians like you, who try to brush Indian-Pak differences under the carpet, with a ``Maan na Maan, Mai Tera Mehman`` attitude of ``Hum sab ek hain``, are the biggest creators of Pakistani insecurity and Paranoia. Why can`t we acknowledge our differences, and then try and resolve them instead of saying there are no differences? (Rhetorical question, not aimed at you)
The refugees who still remember Pakistan, as ``hamara ghar``, are not doing either country a favor. If you meant to insinuate that the stories of Partion that I heard are responsible for my position against the Pakistani state, you are dead wrong. The bitterness of Hindu/Sikh refugees is not towards Jinnah, the Muslim League or even the Muslims who instead are looked upon as fellow sufferers of their own idiotic leadership, it is against Congress leaders, specifically Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.
``For Indians who do not fit the above category (greater than 70%, and increasing by day as the previous generations die), the `consider the Pakistani state our enemy country` either does not hold true, or will dilute over time.``
Well, the 30% that I belong to, by your estimate at least, have some curiosity and and hunger for Pakistani culture, literature, music, because we see a bit of ourselves in it. That is why I made a distinction between the Pakistani state, and the Pakistani people. I look forward to the posts of SameerJB, not for his politics, but for his commentary on culture and society to which my people are a part. My hatred for the policies of the Pakistani state, which are inmical to my country, are tempered by a knowledge that there is a Pakistan beyond press conferences, diplomatic manouvres, war mongering and calls for Jihad.
Now, consider people who are not of the 30% but the 70% (again your estimate)who have no such connection with Pakistan. I think the biggest Paki Hater on Chowk is Jay, a person from Kerala, or so he says, and exactly how did his views get affected by stories of Partition. People like Jay, and they are the ones of future generation, have no cultural affinity with Pakistan, view it as a foreign country, ad do not distinguish between the state and the people. Where exactly are they supposed to lose their hatred? What exactly is motivating them to NOT hate? It`s not the history boks, but present circumstances and differing view points fuelled by violence and righteousness, that cause a rift. Look at Samuel Hersh`s article which is posted below. Do you think the hatred he talks about is because of stories told by older generation Indians to young and pristine minds?
Look, this post, inspite of its appearence, is not pessimistic. I just say, lose the bhai bhai approach, take a pragmatic look at issues, try and solve them as best as you can, in peace or in war, and leave us 30% alone to romanticize our past and our divided culture.
#200 Posted by Gowardhan on October 30, 2001 5:10:43 pm
[``the same Pakistani case officers who built up the Taliban are doing the translating for the C.I.A. It`s like using the Gottis to translate a conversation with the Lucheses.`` Another intelligence officer depicted the language situation in Afghanistan as ``madness.`` He added, ``Our biggest mistake is allowing the I.S.I. to be our eyes and ears.``
It was a lack of operational security that, apparently, led to the death, late last week, of one of the most prominent operatives in the Taliban war. According to press reports, Abdul Haq, an Afghan guerrilla leader who was a hero in the war against the Soviets, had been ambushed and executed after a two-day standoff in eastern Afghanistan. Haq was said by the Taliban to have been on a mission for the United States, and to have been carrying large amounts of money—presumably to be used to induce Taliban commanders to defect. An Afghan press report subsequently quoted a Taliban spokesman who said that fifty of Haq`s supporters, possibly including ``foreigners,`` had also been surrounded. Haq`s death was a major setback to the American anti-Taliban effort]
So true.
It was a lack of operational security that, apparently, led to the death, late last week, of one of the most prominent operatives in the Taliban war. According to press reports, Abdul Haq, an Afghan guerrilla leader who was a hero in the war against the Soviets, had been ambushed and executed after a two-day standoff in eastern Afghanistan. Haq was said by the Taliban to have been on a mission for the United States, and to have been carrying large amounts of money—presumably to be used to induce Taliban commanders to defect. An Afghan press report subsequently quoted a Taliban spokesman who said that fifty of Haq`s supporters, possibly including ``foreigners,`` had also been surrounded. Haq`s death was a major setback to the American anti-Taliban effort]
So true.
#199 Posted by Gowardhan on October 30, 2001 5:10:43 pm
Stuka
You are wrong. I did not grow up thinking about Pakistan as enemy or muslims as enemy or dirty. I began to hate Pakistan after seeing their evil behavior in Kashmir and Afghanistan and after learning what they teach for history. After seeing people like Hobbyty who are spreading their hatred in the guise of religion all over the world made that hatred stronger.
You may have gone to Hindu fundamentalist RSS schools in Punjab. I dont know about their books. My government school books did not teach hatred against Pakistanis. Most Indian schools are government schools. My government school text books had chapters on Paigambar Mohammad, Sikh Gurus, Sufi poets, Hindu poets, Christian poets. Medieval problems between Hindu subjects and Muslim rulers was balanced by asking us always to respect other religions.
People can sort political difference. Hatred and misinformation taught to children will stay with most people always. Only exceptional people will be able to leave hatred. Tahmed who criticises me can do that overcoming, I appreciate him, though he dosnt appreciate me. All people are not like him. I can bet you that many *nice * pakistanis interacting on Chowk dont believe in their heart that Hindus are equal human beings. In time of crunch, these Pakistanis will drop their Hindu friends and go back to bigotry taught to them since birth.
Bigots are everywhere. I hate Pakistan because it works to turn its children into bigots as a matter of national policy. Most of these children will die as bigots, what India does will make no difference to them. They only see the world as good, innocent muslim world and bad kafir world. That is what some people as Eklviya who want to be friends with Pakistanis dont understand. When Pakistani children are taught this hatred, what is the chance of meeting a good Pakistani?
You are wrong. I did not grow up thinking about Pakistan as enemy or muslims as enemy or dirty. I began to hate Pakistan after seeing their evil behavior in Kashmir and Afghanistan and after learning what they teach for history. After seeing people like Hobbyty who are spreading their hatred in the guise of religion all over the world made that hatred stronger.
You may have gone to Hindu fundamentalist RSS schools in Punjab. I dont know about their books. My government school books did not teach hatred against Pakistanis. Most Indian schools are government schools. My government school text books had chapters on Paigambar Mohammad, Sikh Gurus, Sufi poets, Hindu poets, Christian poets. Medieval problems between Hindu subjects and Muslim rulers was balanced by asking us always to respect other religions.
People can sort political difference. Hatred and misinformation taught to children will stay with most people always. Only exceptional people will be able to leave hatred. Tahmed who criticises me can do that overcoming, I appreciate him, though he dosnt appreciate me. All people are not like him. I can bet you that many *nice * pakistanis interacting on Chowk dont believe in their heart that Hindus are equal human beings. In time of crunch, these Pakistanis will drop their Hindu friends and go back to bigotry taught to them since birth.
Bigots are everywhere. I hate Pakistan because it works to turn its children into bigots as a matter of national policy. Most of these children will die as bigots, what India does will make no difference to them. They only see the world as good, innocent muslim world and bad kafir world. That is what some people as Eklviya who want to be friends with Pakistanis dont understand. When Pakistani children are taught this hatred, what is the chance of meeting a good Pakistani?
#198 Posted by Trillium on October 30, 2001 12:15:21 pm
Faisal sahb -Your piece was a lot more interesting than the Times piece. This is what you need to be putting on the net.I reread my last note and it looked like I tossed off the massacre pretty lightly but hardly so. The real tragedy is that Pakistan so desperately needs its minorities. They were so critical in America`s own development. Minorities have a way of moderating our poltical, religious and social excesses demonstrated during slavery and Native American `cleansing`... more remarkable, under the separation of church and state. A sobering account in ``Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee`` brings images of those carrying the frozen stiff bodies of women and children into the local church for identification. It was winter obviously - Christmas time. Above the altar was a large banner which read, ``Peace and Goodwill To All Men`` Amin .. and beneath, the bodies thawed in the warmth. I`ve always had a sense that at some point in history we`d be repaid for that karmic deficit.
It`s impossible not to consider the psychology of these matters, which ultimately falls to the laws of quantum physics. When we talk about a Creator we`re talking about The Absolute and Absolute Truth. That is impossible for human`s to know. The creator cannot be limited to terms like Jew, Christian, Muslim or Jain. That empirical Uncertainty is carved in stone and could not be dislodged by Einstein himself nor anyone else in this age of computers and technological brilliance. When we invoke the words ``God`` or ``Allah taala``, we`re only talking about a god IMAGE only. The only law which can possibly apply is a personal and subjective one. Yet, I`m disturbed by what I see, on the net and the tube, especially, and it`s at the core of religious war raging around the world. ``When I say ``God`` I`m talkin` THE ONLY God.`` The personal subjective has impossibly melted into the collective objective. 2+2=3.
Remember the wonderful relationships that existed between Muslim and Hindu before, even after Partition? My personal doctor, Dr Kashyap`s best friend is his office mate, Dr Abassi. Hindu and Muslim. These two brilliant men worship that tiny Uncertainty, that tiny (and Holy) seed of ..doubt... if you will. It`s the Heisenbergh Uncertainty Principle at its best. It`s what Pervez Hoodbuoy knows for sure: Uncertainty must remain sacred if the world is to survive.
More later
It`s impossible not to consider the psychology of these matters, which ultimately falls to the laws of quantum physics. When we talk about a Creator we`re talking about The Absolute and Absolute Truth. That is impossible for human`s to know. The creator cannot be limited to terms like Jew, Christian, Muslim or Jain. That empirical Uncertainty is carved in stone and could not be dislodged by Einstein himself nor anyone else in this age of computers and technological brilliance. When we invoke the words ``God`` or ``Allah taala``, we`re only talking about a god IMAGE only. The only law which can possibly apply is a personal and subjective one. Yet, I`m disturbed by what I see, on the net and the tube, especially, and it`s at the core of religious war raging around the world. ``When I say ``God`` I`m talkin` THE ONLY God.`` The personal subjective has impossibly melted into the collective objective. 2+2=3.
Remember the wonderful relationships that existed between Muslim and Hindu before, even after Partition? My personal doctor, Dr Kashyap`s best friend is his office mate, Dr Abassi. Hindu and Muslim. These two brilliant men worship that tiny Uncertainty, that tiny (and Holy) seed of ..doubt... if you will. It`s the Heisenbergh Uncertainty Principle at its best. It`s what Pervez Hoodbuoy knows for sure: Uncertainty must remain sacred if the world is to survive.
More later
#197 Posted by rsaxena on October 30, 2001 12:15:21 pm
Re: binifer
``i just collected my shadi ka jora which is a bright red backless, sleeveless sharaara.``
does it come with 2 horns and a tail?
``i just collected my shadi ka jora which is a bright red backless, sleeveless sharaara.``
does it come with 2 horns and a tail?
#196 Posted by shammi on October 30, 2001 12:15:21 pm
Stuka #186
``...Inspite of the relatively less virulent nature of our text books, do we still not consider the Pakistani state our enemy country? I know I still do...``
let me make a wild guess -- you are a Punjabi with roots in what is today Pakistan, and have met older relatives who passed on tales to you about life in undivided India. For Indians who do not fit the above category (greater than 70%, and increasing by day as the previous generations die), the `consider the Pakistani state our enemy country` either does not hold true, or will dilute over time. That is why, not institutionalizing biased histories in textbooks is so important. They allow wounds to heal with time.
``...Inspite of the relatively less virulent nature of our text books, do we still not consider the Pakistani state our enemy country? I know I still do...``
let me make a wild guess -- you are a Punjabi with roots in what is today Pakistan, and have met older relatives who passed on tales to you about life in undivided India. For Indians who do not fit the above category (greater than 70%, and increasing by day as the previous generations die), the `consider the Pakistani state our enemy country` either does not hold true, or will dilute over time. That is why, not institutionalizing biased histories in textbooks is so important. They allow wounds to heal with time.
#195 Posted by rsaxena on October 30, 2001 12:15:21 pm
Re: Stuka
``The million dollar question:
Is Bhartiya Mussulmaan really one?``
He`s a real life James Bond. hehe
``The million dollar question:
Is Bhartiya Mussulmaan really one?``
He`s a real life James Bond. hehe
#194 Posted by sarwar on October 30, 2001 12:15:21 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#193 Posted by shankar on October 30, 2001 12:15:21 pm
ylh,
{{You idiot....why do I even bother with you.}}
Cos youre a total moron--and an eternal bakra to boot. You just cannot resist the ``k for kafir`` bait. People who never learn (even when told repeatedly) are worse than idiots.
Book knowledge--that you love to show off, is just a stepping stone to wisdom. REAl wisdom is learning from life`s experiences. However, since its not written in a book, it just doesnt seem to filter into your brain.
{{You idiot....why do I even bother with you.}}
Cos youre a total moron--and an eternal bakra to boot. You just cannot resist the ``k for kafir`` bait. People who never learn (even when told repeatedly) are worse than idiots.
Book knowledge--that you love to show off, is just a stepping stone to wisdom. REAl wisdom is learning from life`s experiences. However, since its not written in a book, it just doesnt seem to filter into your brain.
#192 Posted by subroto on October 30, 2001 12:15:21 pm
Re Zafar # 187
``Cineblitz has an opening for you!``
Kya yaadain taza kar di Zafar bhai (and Satyavadi too). The only time I used to get to read this mag. was during the visits to my local tonsorial artist, so now that gives me one more thing to look forward to when I go home (only 12 days to go, yessss!).
Bye or as they say meow to you cats out there..as this billi is going to dilli
Subroto
``Cineblitz has an opening for you!``
Kya yaadain taza kar di Zafar bhai (and Satyavadi too). The only time I used to get to read this mag. was during the visits to my local tonsorial artist, so now that gives me one more thing to look forward to when I go home (only 12 days to go, yessss!).
Bye or as they say meow to you cats out there..as this billi is going to dilli
Subroto
#191 Posted by satyavadi on October 30, 2001 12:15:21 pm
Zafar #187:
``Cineblitz has an opening for you!``
Do they pay in dollars?
No, Ok how about a date each with Bipasha Basu and Sonali Bendre once every two months?
Lemmme know...
Satyavadi
``Cineblitz has an opening for you!``
Do they pay in dollars?
No, Ok how about a date each with Bipasha Basu and Sonali Bendre once every two months?
Lemmme know...
Satyavadi
#190 Posted by Zahra on October 30, 2001 12:14:01 pm
Binifer:
It`s completely up to you where you want to go. Your hell may be someone`s heaven and vice versa. By the way, you will be taking a major step in your life pretty soon. I hope that it was your own decision than otherwise. If you could make that decision on your own then you ought to be able to decide on the sleeves and the back of your dress. Should not take very long :)
Take Care.
It`s completely up to you where you want to go. Your hell may be someone`s heaven and vice versa. By the way, you will be taking a major step in your life pretty soon. I hope that it was your own decision than otherwise. If you could make that decision on your own then you ought to be able to decide on the sleeves and the back of your dress. Should not take very long :)
Take Care.
#189 Posted by sadna on October 30, 2001 12:08:44 pm
PS: For some more on what the speaker from the Eklavya Foundation said :)
http://www.chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=aamirali_aug1601&n=600#reply1164
http://www.chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=aamirali_aug1601&n=600#reply1164
#188 Posted by sadna on October 30, 2001 11:55:38 am
gowardhan #168, Eklvaya #178
The source of the article is:
http://members.tripod.com/
The source of the article is:
http://members.tripod.com/
#187 Posted by Binifer on October 30, 2001 12:16:14 am
zahra
i will :--)
BTW, all this talk about hijaab and clothes and hell is freaking me out. i just collected my shadi ka jora which is a bright red backless, sleeveless sharaara.
anNoo says i`ll go straight to hell while my sasoomaa says I`ll kill both her husband and mine with shock
:--(
i will :--)
BTW, all this talk about hijaab and clothes and hell is freaking me out. i just collected my shadi ka jora which is a bright red backless, sleeveless sharaara.
anNoo says i`ll go straight to hell while my sasoomaa says I`ll kill both her husband and mine with shock
:--(
#186 Posted by ZafarA on October 30, 2001 12:16:14 am
Reply Satyavadi # 165
“Now did this BM guy really know Sarwari? Has he really gone to SJ to really ask her hand in marriage? What will YLH do now, since he has been openly courting and maska-maroing Sarwari on Chowk for a long time? Where does Saxena fit in?”
Cineblitz has an opening for you!
Zafar
“Now did this BM guy really know Sarwari? Has he really gone to SJ to really ask her hand in marriage? What will YLH do now, since he has been openly courting and maska-maroing Sarwari on Chowk for a long time? Where does Saxena fit in?”
Cineblitz has an opening for you!
Zafar
#185 Posted by stuka on October 30, 2001 12:16:14 am
Gowardhan:
Dude, I read your long post, and my reaction, well lemme just say it wasn`t pleasent. Especially the part about Pakistan providing all material help to Hindus/Sikhs leaving for India.
Here`s my take though. Pakistan is a foreign country. Pakistanis are not Indians. They can teach whatever they want to their kids, its not our business.
Now, if all these teachings imbue Pakistani with hatred towards India, fine, that`s their choice. If that hatred translate into hostile action against India, we will retaliate. That is our choice.
Now, let me say one more thing. From personal experience (having studied in India), I know our books do not have a similar Hindu-Muslim divide. That is our choice, and I for one am quiet happy with that choice. Secondly, the secular leanings of our text books also did not translate into any form of amity with Pakistan. Tell me, in your circle of friends in India, how many considered Pakistan to be a friendly country? In my case, none. They choose to differentiate on the basis of religion, we chose to do so on the basis of our nationality. They made their choice, we made ours. One advantage of the choice we made is that we will never have the moral obligation of hosting a few thousand Hindus of Fiji or wherever, unlike these the poor sods across the border who are stuck with holding thousands of Afghans in the name of religion. We are glad we made that choice, and I bet the Fijian hindus are glad too, as it makes their case stronger for political asylum in Australia (where Zafar can work weekends processing their paperwork:))LOL Imagine the delicious irony of it Gowardhan, an Indian Muslim slogging long hourse for Fijian Hindus lol
Inspite of the relatively less virulent nature of our text books, do we still not consider the Pakistani state our enemy country? I know I still do. Ofcourse, after coming to the US and interacting with Pakistanis, I make a distinction between the actions of the Pakistani state(which are made in it`s percieved self-interest), and individual Pakistanis. I am also confident that if, by some miracle, the self-interests of India and Pakistan were to coincide, you and I would be left holding the baggage of hatred in the dustbin of history.
Whereas I can understand your anger, I`d like you to keep things in perspective too. Hope you take my post in the right spirit.
Regards
Stuka
Dude, I read your long post, and my reaction, well lemme just say it wasn`t pleasent. Especially the part about Pakistan providing all material help to Hindus/Sikhs leaving for India.
Here`s my take though. Pakistan is a foreign country. Pakistanis are not Indians. They can teach whatever they want to their kids, its not our business.
Now, if all these teachings imbue Pakistani with hatred towards India, fine, that`s their choice. If that hatred translate into hostile action against India, we will retaliate. That is our choice.
Now, let me say one more thing. From personal experience (having studied in India), I know our books do not have a similar Hindu-Muslim divide. That is our choice, and I for one am quiet happy with that choice. Secondly, the secular leanings of our text books also did not translate into any form of amity with Pakistan. Tell me, in your circle of friends in India, how many considered Pakistan to be a friendly country? In my case, none. They choose to differentiate on the basis of religion, we chose to do so on the basis of our nationality. They made their choice, we made ours. One advantage of the choice we made is that we will never have the moral obligation of hosting a few thousand Hindus of Fiji or wherever, unlike these the poor sods across the border who are stuck with holding thousands of Afghans in the name of religion. We are glad we made that choice, and I bet the Fijian hindus are glad too, as it makes their case stronger for political asylum in Australia (where Zafar can work weekends processing their paperwork:))LOL Imagine the delicious irony of it Gowardhan, an Indian Muslim slogging long hourse for Fijian Hindus lol
Inspite of the relatively less virulent nature of our text books, do we still not consider the Pakistani state our enemy country? I know I still do. Ofcourse, after coming to the US and interacting with Pakistanis, I make a distinction between the actions of the Pakistani state(which are made in it`s percieved self-interest), and individual Pakistanis. I am also confident that if, by some miracle, the self-interests of India and Pakistan were to coincide, you and I would be left holding the baggage of hatred in the dustbin of history.
Whereas I can understand your anger, I`d like you to keep things in perspective too. Hope you take my post in the right spirit.
Regards
Stuka
#184 Posted by stuka on October 30, 2001 12:16:14 am
Sarwari:
``As for your buddy, let me assure you that there are many losers from India here in San Jose living off of welfare especially after 9/11. ``
UM, how would you know about how many Indians there are living off welfare? Do you have a dead end government job at the Dep`t of Social Services? Or the Postal Dep`t? Is that what makes you so angry?
I`m just asking. No need to go all postal on me. ;)
``As for your buddy, let me assure you that there are many losers from India here in San Jose living off of welfare especially after 9/11. ``
UM, how would you know about how many Indians there are living off welfare? Do you have a dead end government job at the Dep`t of Social Services? Or the Postal Dep`t? Is that what makes you so angry?
I`m just asking. No need to go all postal on me. ;)
#183 Posted by stuka on October 30, 2001 12:16:14 am
RSaxena:
The million dollar question:
Is Bhartiya Mussulmaan really one? If you don`t want to out that info on Chowk, can you email me at pvohra@yahoo.com??
The million dollar question:
Is Bhartiya Mussulmaan really one? If you don`t want to out that info on Chowk, can you email me at pvohra@yahoo.com??
#182 Posted by sattar2 on October 30, 2001 12:16:14 am
Re Urstruly, #91:
So Sahib, you are now gloating about your newly found comfort in bigotry, albeit on a condition that “courage” required to practice bigotry is a “virtue” that makes right-and-wrong irrelevant. In other words, it is fine to be a bigot, as long as one “courageously” acts upon it. While you are at it, you should also declare that Abu Jehal is really your true hero, since he died fighting for what he believed in.
Your “Moudoodism” not only teaches you bigotry, it also teaches you to glorify bigotry by euphemistically calling it “courage”. How absurd …!
Asad
So Sahib, you are now gloating about your newly found comfort in bigotry, albeit on a condition that “courage” required to practice bigotry is a “virtue” that makes right-and-wrong irrelevant. In other words, it is fine to be a bigot, as long as one “courageously” acts upon it. While you are at it, you should also declare that Abu Jehal is really your true hero, since he died fighting for what he believed in.
Your “Moudoodism” not only teaches you bigotry, it also teaches you to glorify bigotry by euphemistically calling it “courage”. How absurd …!
Asad
#181 Posted by Nagnatheshwar on October 30, 2001 12:16:14 am
How far to bow to Pakistan?
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Author: Bill Nichols
Publication: USA Today
Date: October 25, 2001
Some worry policy is too focused on helping Musharraf
Washington - When the Bush administration began to mount a military response to the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, senior officials faced a central question: Would Pakistan help?
The answer, to the relief of President Bush and his team, was yes. But as the U.S. campaign in Afghanistan continues, a new worry is being voiced in Washington: Is concern for the stability of Pakistan`s military regime driving U.S. policy?
``We`ve been bending over backward too far to make sure Pakistan`s feelings don`t get hurt,`` Rep. Dana Rohrabacher, R-Calif., told Secretary of State Colin Powell on Wednesday during Powell`s appearance on Capitol Hill.
There is wide agreement within the administration that the assistance of Gen. Pervez Musharraf`s government is crucial to U.S. success in Afghanistan. Pakistani intelligence on Afghanistan`s Taliban regime is key, as is the ability of U.S. troops to use Pakistan as a staging ground.
Policymakers also agree about the fragility of Musharraf`s government, which is faced with opposition to the U.S. campaign among Islamic radicals sympathetic to the Taliban.
``Musharraf is riding a tiger. I am very concerned about the stability of his regime,`` said Brent Scowcroft, who was national security adviser to the first President Bush.
But recent public comments by senior administration officials suggest an internal debate on how much U.S. policy should bend to try to help prop up Musharraf.
U.S. officials deny any split on either military or diplomatic strategy. But statements by Powell, in particular, suggest a deeper concern within the State Department that Pakistan`s political needs remain a key basis for future military and diplomatic decisions.
``The State Department is very fearful of the attitude in the street of Pakistan and the danger that a popular uprising against Musharraf`s government is quite serious,`` says Ted Galen Carpenter, a foreign policy analyst at the Cato Institute.
In his Hill appearance, Powell said Pakistan, which has deep ties to the Taliban, will not be allowed to unduly influence the formation of a new Afghan government.
``The next government of Afghanistan cannot be dictated into existence by Pakistan or any other neighbors,`` Powell said. ``It has to come into existence by the will of the Afghan people.``
But other Powell comments that appear to echo Pakistani concerns have been at odds with others in the administration.
One example: Musharraf has urged the administration to end its military campaign quickly and to be respectful of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, which begins in mid- November. In recent appearances, Powell has said the administration will consider those concerns.
During a news conference with British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw on Wednesday, Powell said he would like to see the operation accomplish its objectives ``in the next few days.`` The administration is ``sensitive to Ramadan, but we can`t let that be the sole determinant`` for military operations, Powell said.
Pentagon officials, however, said flatly that there are no time constraints on the campaign. Army Gen. Tommy Franks, head of U.S. Central Command, said in Bahrain on Wednesday, ``The operations we undertake go on 24 hours a day.``
Musharraf also has urged Washington to consider including some elements of the Taliban in any post-war government.
In Islamabad last week, Powell suggested that moderate members of the Taliban could serve in a new Afghan government. Powell has since qualified his remarks, saying Taliban rank-and-file could serve in a new government but no one in the current regime.
But his original statement raised hackles with other U.S. allies, specifically India and Russia.
On Monday, Russian President Vladimir Putin ruled out participation by the Taliban. He said it had ``compromised itself`` by cooperating with international terrorists.
#179 Posted by mohajir on October 30, 2001 12:16:14 am
Indians are weak and lazy, Pakistani social studies books say
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011028/wl/attacks_postcard_from_pindi_1.html
Western Books at Pakistan Book Bazaar
By TED ANTHONY, Associated Press Writer
RAWALPINDI, Pakistan (AP) - Archie is in his usual perplexed predicament, staring out from the ``Laugh Digest`` cover as he struggles - even on this traffic-choked street a world from Riverdale High - to choose between Betty and an exasperated Veronica.
Two books down, vying for attention, is ``Military Lessons of the Persian Gulf War (news - web sites).`` Several sidewalk segments away are these titles: ``Muslim Political Movements,`` ``The Battle of Ideas in Pakistan`` - and ``Principles of Refrigeration and Air Conditioning.``
Cultures may collide, but books sit together quietly and get along. And each Sunday on the sidewalks of Rawalpindi - ``Pindi`` to its friends - used-book hawkers lay out a street-market microcosm of the cultural convulsions that are engulfing the world.
For four blocks in the crowded, raucous Saddar market neighborhood, vendors dump tattered volumes from plastic, burlap-style sacks onto the ground, carefully arranging them for sale.
Many are in Urdu, in the right-to-left Arabic script used in Pakistan. But most are in English, from the world over. Browsing them, contemplating the routes they took to a sidewalk in this town just outside Islamabad, offers glimpses into both Pakistan and the world at large.
Beyond the many outdated technical and computer books - symbols of a generation`s attempt to grab at the modern world - are juxtapositions that would be strange in any era but seem especially unusual in the post-Sept. 11 world.
There are Time magazines featuring Jimmy Carter and slain Egyptian President Anwar Sadat - and a Glamour featuring Heather Locklear, not far from a biography of Iran`s Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. There is a week-old New York tabloid with its anthrax-mail headline: ``Follow the Letter.``
There are, inexplicably, 1960s-era copies of James Hilton`s novel ``Goodbye, Mr. Chips`` everywhere. There`s a Karachi-published edition of ``Death of a Salesman`` - an indictment of American capitalism if there ever was one. ``Aromatherapy for Dummies`` sits atop the 1994 Lahore yellow pages.
``Sir! How about this one - you know this one,`` says a proprietor, thrusting a volume forward in a cloud of dust. It is a rare 1929 edition of ``All Quiet on the Western Front,`` a novel about another war. It is 300 rupees - about $5.
And from just before another war comes ``An Official Guide to Japan,`` put out by the Japanese government eight years before Pearl Harbor. Japan`s ``rise to the status of a great power,`` it says, ``is still the wonder of the modern world.``
Everywhere in these stalls are books to teach English - the tongue of global access, used even by the Taliban ambassador to Pakistan. One textbook - the ``Pilot-A-One English Grammar and Composition,`` published in Lahore in about 1975 - shows how language and culture are inseparable. Among its practice sentences: ``The Muslims ruled over India for 800 years,`` and ``May God bless you with a son.``
And a 1990 Pakistani social studies textbook, ``First Steps in Our History,`` calls the people of Hindustan ``weak and lazy.`` To Pakistanis, Hindustan means India - their neighbor and rival.
Here, too, are perspectives not normally available in U.S. bookstores - like a 1978 Pakistani history of the Korean War and a two-volume 1973 biography of late North Korean leader Kim Il Sung, published in Beirut.
Ideas, of course, are the battleground of wars as much as territory ever is. And many have argued that the cultural rift between Islam and the West - whether based upon religion, as Muslim militants insist, or not - springs from insufficient knowledge.
And the battle of ideas in Pakistan - the concept, not the book - is evident in the bookstalls` neighborhood.
American brand names are ubiquitous, something that has angered some militant leaders. On a nearby corner sits the Jammu-Kashmir (news - web sites) Liberation Front, a half-block from a billboard advertising Dockers, the men`s khakis.
At the KFC a block from the booksellers, a portrait of Pakistan`s founder, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, is surrounded by six Colonel Sanders cartoons. ``I am a chicken genius,`` says one.
Outside, a rifle-toting guard subjects seekers of original and extra crispy to a handheld metal detecters - for good reason: In the city of Karachi this month, protesters looking for a symbol of American culture found a KFC and set it afire.
In this new war, there are people on both sides who view the solution as a black-and-white choice they characterize in different ways: the West or Islam, God or American culture, infidelity or martyrdom.
But in the bookstalls of Rawalpindi, the shades of gray remain. A few rupees will buy Monica Lewinsky`s biography, a Chinese food cookbook, a copy of ``The Sword of Allah`` or even a forgotten tale of Jughead and Archie.
On both sides of this planetary cultural rift that may or may not exist, ideas - thousands of them - are still there for the taking.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011028/wl/attacks_postcard_from_pindi_1.html
Western Books at Pakistan Book Bazaar
By TED ANTHONY, Associated Press Writer
RAWALPINDI, Pakistan (AP) - Archie is in his usual perplexed predicament, staring out from the ``Laugh Digest`` cover as he struggles - even on this traffic-choked street a world from Riverdale High - to choose between Betty and an exasperated Veronica.
Two books down, vying for attention, is ``Military Lessons of the Persian Gulf War (news - web sites).`` Several sidewalk segments away are these titles: ``Muslim Political Movements,`` ``The Battle of Ideas in Pakistan`` - and ``Principles of Refrigeration and Air Conditioning.``
Cultures may collide, but books sit together quietly and get along. And each Sunday on the sidewalks of Rawalpindi - ``Pindi`` to its friends - used-book hawkers lay out a street-market microcosm of the cultural convulsions that are engulfing the world.
For four blocks in the crowded, raucous Saddar market neighborhood, vendors dump tattered volumes from plastic, burlap-style sacks onto the ground, carefully arranging them for sale.
Many are in Urdu, in the right-to-left Arabic script used in Pakistan. But most are in English, from the world over. Browsing them, contemplating the routes they took to a sidewalk in this town just outside Islamabad, offers glimpses into both Pakistan and the world at large.
Beyond the many outdated technical and computer books - symbols of a generation`s attempt to grab at the modern world - are juxtapositions that would be strange in any era but seem especially unusual in the post-Sept. 11 world.
There are Time magazines featuring Jimmy Carter and slain Egyptian President Anwar Sadat - and a Glamour featuring Heather Locklear, not far from a biography of Iran`s Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. There is a week-old New York tabloid with its anthrax-mail headline: ``Follow the Letter.``
There are, inexplicably, 1960s-era copies of James Hilton`s novel ``Goodbye, Mr. Chips`` everywhere. There`s a Karachi-published edition of ``Death of a Salesman`` - an indictment of American capitalism if there ever was one. ``Aromatherapy for Dummies`` sits atop the 1994 Lahore yellow pages.
``Sir! How about this one - you know this one,`` says a proprietor, thrusting a volume forward in a cloud of dust. It is a rare 1929 edition of ``All Quiet on the Western Front,`` a novel about another war. It is 300 rupees - about $5.
And from just before another war comes ``An Official Guide to Japan,`` put out by the Japanese government eight years before Pearl Harbor. Japan`s ``rise to the status of a great power,`` it says, ``is still the wonder of the modern world.``
Everywhere in these stalls are books to teach English - the tongue of global access, used even by the Taliban ambassador to Pakistan. One textbook - the ``Pilot-A-One English Grammar and Composition,`` published in Lahore in about 1975 - shows how language and culture are inseparable. Among its practice sentences: ``The Muslims ruled over India for 800 years,`` and ``May God bless you with a son.``
And a 1990 Pakistani social studies textbook, ``First Steps in Our History,`` calls the people of Hindustan ``weak and lazy.`` To Pakistanis, Hindustan means India - their neighbor and rival.
Here, too, are perspectives not normally available in U.S. bookstores - like a 1978 Pakistani history of the Korean War and a two-volume 1973 biography of late North Korean leader Kim Il Sung, published in Beirut.
Ideas, of course, are the battleground of wars as much as territory ever is. And many have argued that the cultural rift between Islam and the West - whether based upon religion, as Muslim militants insist, or not - springs from insufficient knowledge.
And the battle of ideas in Pakistan - the concept, not the book - is evident in the bookstalls` neighborhood.
American brand names are ubiquitous, something that has angered some militant leaders. On a nearby corner sits the Jammu-Kashmir (news - web sites) Liberation Front, a half-block from a billboard advertising Dockers, the men`s khakis.
At the KFC a block from the booksellers, a portrait of Pakistan`s founder, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, is surrounded by six Colonel Sanders cartoons. ``I am a chicken genius,`` says one.
Outside, a rifle-toting guard subjects seekers of original and extra crispy to a handheld metal detecters - for good reason: In the city of Karachi this month, protesters looking for a symbol of American culture found a KFC and set it afire.
In this new war, there are people on both sides who view the solution as a black-and-white choice they characterize in different ways: the West or Islam, God or American culture, infidelity or martyrdom.
But in the bookstalls of Rawalpindi, the shades of gray remain. A few rupees will buy Monica Lewinsky`s biography, a Chinese food cookbook, a copy of ``The Sword of Allah`` or even a forgotten tale of Jughead and Archie.
On both sides of this planetary cultural rift that may or may not exist, ideas - thousands of them - are still there for the taking.
#178 Posted by Eklavya on October 30, 2001 12:16:14 am
re: Gowardhan # 168
Gowardhan,
This ``hypocrat`` noticed that you did not mention the source of your article.
But there are real issues that I will address when I find time. Unlike you, this hypocrat has a hypocratic schedule of work to complete.
No regards.
EK
Gowardhan,
This ``hypocrat`` noticed that you did not mention the source of your article.
But there are real issues that I will address when I find time. Unlike you, this hypocrat has a hypocratic schedule of work to complete.
No regards.
EK
#177 Posted by Zahra on October 29, 2001 10:21:17 pm
Trillium/Terry Burns:
[Zahra: You indeed are right. Pardon my broad brush. I have fine ones as well. I felt I made a difference. I knew I could influence a few and did. Despite the behaviors at the int. schools, there`s a sweetness among Pakistani kids I miss deeply. There`s a sweetness in Pakistan itself I miss as well. I couldn`t stay away from the bazaars and tea stalls. I was obsessed with turning every stone I could find and talking to the people. It drove my wife crazy. When I started grabbing local kids out of dumpsters and off the street to put in government schools my school administrators started going crazy. After two years other teachers began to notice and help with uniforms, supplies etc, eventually began taking on other poor kids as well. I understand the tradition has continued after we left and the kids remain in schools. We educated mostly girls who would eventually educate their own, and that tradition goes on as well. Four years. God, I really miss it all, except of course the things I mentioned in `Letter Home`.]
Thanks for shedding some light on your real work! To me, your response carried a lot of meaning. Thank you for creating awareness in my country!
[It was the blatant corruption that pissed me off.]
No arguments! Your frustration is justified. It`s the same frustration that drove many Pakistanis away from their own homeland.
[I quit fighting it when I realized no one else was fighting it and came home.]
I think you should be happy for the contributions you`ve made. I am sure the ones who were routed to the government schools will remember your gesture when they grow old, so do not be harsh on yourself.
[I`m angry.]
Just let it go.
[My heart is still there.]
I do not blame you :)
[Thanks for seeing through the anger.]
You are welcome.
PS:I am glad that I provoked you to write a great post.
[Zahra: You indeed are right. Pardon my broad brush. I have fine ones as well. I felt I made a difference. I knew I could influence a few and did. Despite the behaviors at the int. schools, there`s a sweetness among Pakistani kids I miss deeply. There`s a sweetness in Pakistan itself I miss as well. I couldn`t stay away from the bazaars and tea stalls. I was obsessed with turning every stone I could find and talking to the people. It drove my wife crazy. When I started grabbing local kids out of dumpsters and off the street to put in government schools my school administrators started going crazy. After two years other teachers began to notice and help with uniforms, supplies etc, eventually began taking on other poor kids as well. I understand the tradition has continued after we left and the kids remain in schools. We educated mostly girls who would eventually educate their own, and that tradition goes on as well. Four years. God, I really miss it all, except of course the things I mentioned in `Letter Home`.]
Thanks for shedding some light on your real work! To me, your response carried a lot of meaning. Thank you for creating awareness in my country!
[It was the blatant corruption that pissed me off.]
No arguments! Your frustration is justified. It`s the same frustration that drove many Pakistanis away from their own homeland.
[I quit fighting it when I realized no one else was fighting it and came home.]
I think you should be happy for the contributions you`ve made. I am sure the ones who were routed to the government schools will remember your gesture when they grow old, so do not be harsh on yourself.
[I`m angry.]
Just let it go.
[My heart is still there.]
I do not blame you :)
[Thanks for seeing through the anger.]
You are welcome.
PS:I am glad that I provoked you to write a great post.
#176 Posted by tahmed321 on October 29, 2001 12:05:44 pm
ylh #159 ``Nation in the `age of globalization and modernism` just simply means a group of people sharing certain cultural values plus political unity such as Pakistan.``
If the foundation of a nation are ``cultural values plus political unity``, then they appear to be very weak foundations indeed. I am assuming by culture you mean the generally understood meaning that groups people who dress more or less the same, speak the same language, have similar traditions, have similar mores (e.g. concerning relationships between the genders). A moments reflection should make you realize that (taking Pakistan as an example, but this is true for most states) that ``cultural values`` are orthogonal to nation-states: they cut across nations and they differ within nations, even within different classes of people living in the same city. Cultural values are ephemeral (geographically and over time) and do not have any relevence to character: thieves and knaves exist in all cultures as do scientists and scholars and plain ordinary folks trying to earn an honest living.
As for political unity, I think you are confusing cause and effect.
Instead of cultural values, I present to you (drum-roll please): Moral values. Moral values are universal and are the basis for character and therefore are the basis for how a man lives his life. And moral values provide the foundation for the Family of Man. Cultural diversity can then be celebrated within the framework that encompasses mankind in general, and cultural chauvinism falls by the wayside.
If the foundation of a nation are ``cultural values plus political unity``, then they appear to be very weak foundations indeed. I am assuming by culture you mean the generally understood meaning that groups people who dress more or less the same, speak the same language, have similar traditions, have similar mores (e.g. concerning relationships between the genders). A moments reflection should make you realize that (taking Pakistan as an example, but this is true for most states) that ``cultural values`` are orthogonal to nation-states: they cut across nations and they differ within nations, even within different classes of people living in the same city. Cultural values are ephemeral (geographically and over time) and do not have any relevence to character: thieves and knaves exist in all cultures as do scientists and scholars and plain ordinary folks trying to earn an honest living.
As for political unity, I think you are confusing cause and effect.
Instead of cultural values, I present to you (drum-roll please): Moral values. Moral values are universal and are the basis for character and therefore are the basis for how a man lives his life. And moral values provide the foundation for the Family of Man. Cultural diversity can then be celebrated within the framework that encompasses mankind in general, and cultural chauvinism falls by the wayside.
#175 Posted by satyavadi on October 29, 2001 12:05:44 pm
Raveena Devi Saxena Biharwali #173::
[Re: satyavadi gujju
``Where does Saxena fit in?``
I don`t. I`m just relaying what i`ve heard about bharatiya_musalman`s whereabouts.]
Clarificasion ke liye tohaar bohat bohat sukriya.
[Re: satyavadi gujju
``Where does Saxena fit in?``
I don`t. I`m just relaying what i`ve heard about bharatiya_musalman`s whereabouts.]
Clarificasion ke liye tohaar bohat bohat sukriya.
#174 Posted by sarwar on October 29, 2001 12:05:44 pm
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#173 Posted by rsaxena on October 29, 2001 9:50:55 am
Re: satyavadi gujju
``Where does Saxena fit in?``
I don`t. I`m just relaying what i`ve heard about bharatiya_musalman`s whereabouts.
``Where does Saxena fit in?``
I don`t. I`m just relaying what i`ve heard about bharatiya_musalman`s whereabouts.
#172 Posted by rsaxena on October 29, 2001 9:50:55 am
Re: Zafar
bharatiya_musalman is a real, individual person...not some alias. Great guy, if you ask me ;)
bharatiya_musalman is a real, individual person...not some alias. Great guy, if you ask me ;)
#171 Posted by rsaxena on October 29, 2001 9:50:55 am
{{(did your hubby-to-be escape at the very last minute? jumped out the window and ran for his life? no? then what are you so angry about, hun?)
no pumpkin- he`s very much around and still wants to marry me}}
oh, poor fellow. munchkin, now would you answer my second question? what are you so angry about?
#170 Posted by Gowardhan on October 29, 2001 9:50:55 am
Eklaviya
You are good guy but too easily suckered like anny. Dont be angry with me. What do you know about Pakistan?
I am sick of American school going Pakistani liers like ylh and their Indian defenders like Eklaviya.
Everyone may read verbatim material written by Pakistani researchers concerned at history taught to Paksitani boys and girls. This is history as it is taught, not any proposals for future. It is long so I ask Indian readers to please spend some time reading it. IT WILL OPEN EYES OF EVEN HYPOCRATES LIKE EKLAVIYA who dont want see any evil in Pakistan.
Indians read this. Pakistanis who really wanting to know the truth read this too. This is history as taught in Pakistan. How in author`s words Pakistanis fill their children`s minds with hatred. Authors say ``it is mind control, propaganda and indoctrination masquerading as an educational process``.
A national social process to shape children`s’ minds.
By Khurshid Hasanain and A. H. Nayyar
A national social process to shape children`s’
The most recent national curriculum document, which determines what is taught in all government schools, was prepared by the Ministry of Education in 1994. It lists the following as some of the purposes of teaching the national language, Urdu. The student should:
a) be able to take pride in the Islamic way of life, and should try to acquire Islamic knowledge and to adopt it;
b) read religious books in order to understand Quranic teachings;
c) listen to events from the Islamic history, and should be able to derive pleasure from them (khushi mehsoos karen);
d) also know that national culture is not local culture or local customs (our emphasis), but it means the culture whose principles have been determined by Islam.
Since identity is constructed in large part through language, the overwhelming impression from reading this set of objectives is that the learning of language itself has to serve Islamic religious purposes, and is to hold even for those students who may not be Muslims. Thus the image that the child develops right from the start is that there is a special place for the Muslims and the `Islamic` way of life which overrides the right of all citizens to be viewed as being equal and to take full pride in their own ways of living and beliefs.
The most amazing of the purported objectives, however, is the one which seeks to convince students of the divorce of national culture from any regional or local context. In other words what exists as culture, and what the child experiences and lives in, are not the real culture. Rather, it is something else transcending the child`s own reality. This view, of course, conveniently overlooks the fact of an actually existing regional and local culture which encompasses the cultures and identities of various religions.
Such a construction of culture points the way for a later structuring of the learning of history. History and Pakistan studies textbooks rarely mention the ancient and non-controversial cultures of the Indus valley (Moenjodaro, Harrappa and Kot Diji), and completely bypass the entire Buddhist and Hindu periods of history. They suddenly jump to the advent of Mohammed bin Qasim in India and treat it as the beginning of history for all practical purposes. The specific ideological basis of this structuring is to make children regard the Muslim part of the history as the only relevant and certainly the most significant part. This process reaches its culmination with the specific learning objective suggested by the curriculum:
To understand the Hindu Muslim differences and the resultant need for Pakistan
In view of such politically motivated suggestions from the curriculum, it is not surprising that the textbooks have a markedly communal and even chauvinistic attitude. The Class I textbook of the Punjab textbook board declares:
Pakistan is our country. We live in our country. Pakistan is an Islamic country. Muslims live here. Muslims believe in one God. They do good deeds.
The implications of the above statements are very obvious. The country belongs to Muslims, and others do not really have any claim to it. This of course is justified by the logic that doing good deeds is expected of Muslims alone. It is clear that by implanting these notions in the minds of children, and omitting any favourable mention of the minorities in Pakistan or peoples of other faiths outside Pakistan, the books sow the seeds of contempt and conflict.
The Hindu
Following the instructions given as `Specific Learning Objectives` in the curriculum for Pakistan/Social Studies for Class V, namely ``to understand the Hindu and Muslim differences and the resultant need for Pakistan``, the writers project Hindu-Muslim differences. A survey of textbooks reveals this theme running through them all the way up to the graduation level. It can be summarised as follows: Muslims and Hindus lived always in a deeply hostile and antagonistic relationship. The Muslims were broadminded, accommodating and brought enlightenment to an otherwise inhuman society characterised only by the caste system and the practice of Sati.
The class 4 text book states:
The religion of the Hindus did not teach them good things -- Hindus did not respect women...
Another book tells the students:
Hindus worship in temples which are very narrow and dark places, where they worship idols. Only one person can enter the temple at a time. In our mosques, on the other hand, all Muslims can say their prayers together.
For another, the Hindus as a monolith were always cunning, scheming, and conspiring to deprive the Muslims of their due rights:
The Hindus always desired to crush the Muslims as a nation. Several attempts were made by the Hindus to erase the Muslim culture and civilisation. Hindi-Urdu controversy, shudhi and sanghtan movements are the most glaring examples of the ignoble Hindu mentality .
If the Hindus had any national aspirations then these were clearly a sign of their prejudices, while if the Muslim kings and invaders plundered Hindu temples then presumably they did so with very noble intentions.
The experience of colonialism is described in a textbook as a British-Hindu conspiracy:
The British joined forces with the Hindus to bring harm to the Muslims. Muslims tried in every way to maintain good relations with the British and Hindus, but they did not allow it to be so.
This typecasting of Hindus as a nation of collaborators in league with their colonial masters is typical. The entire freedom struggle is thus represented as though it was primarily a struggle of Muslims against a joint force of British and Hindus:
Exploiting the anti-Muslim policy of the British, the Hindus fully collaborated with them and obtained all kinds of monetary benefits. The British opened the doors of government service to them and also encouraged them in trade and commerce.
One book declares:
He (Mr. Jinnah) wanted to establish here a separate homeland for the Muslims . The Hindus did not like this and became his enemies. The English were also with Hindus.
Descriptions of the traumas of partition and the horrors that occurred are treated in a similarly biased manner:
While the Muslims provided all type of help to those wishing to leave Pakistan, the people of India committed cruelties against the Muslims (refugees). They would attack the buses, trucks, and trains carrying the Muslim refugees and they were murdered and looted.
It is hard to see such material as anything but an effort to fill young minds with hatred against an enemy, rather than against the acts of depravity and savagery committed by both sides.
Significantly, Sikhs are spared the same treatment in the textbooks. This is despite the fact that East and West Punjab witnessed the most savage acts of violence. This points to a desire for the fiction of a simple bipolar conflict of Muslim Pakistan and Hindu India.
The historical and cultural inevitability of Hindu-Muslim conflict and the attendant creation of irrational hate against Hindus are not confined to the curriculum and textbooks for young children in government primary schools. It continues all the way up to the degree level and extends even into the private education sector. No sector of education is immune.
A few examples from a textbook on Pakistan Studies for Intermediate and Senior Cambridge classes, which is prescribed even in the elite English-medium private schools, are given below to highlight the seriousness of the problem, and to gauge from this the extent to which such books are contributing to irrationality and intolerance in elite society. The authors teach at the prestigious Government College Lahore, and Aitchison College Lahore respectively. The book states:
The British, with the assistance of the Hindus, adopted a cruel policy of mass exodus against the Muslims to erase them as a nation
The British adopted a policy of large scale massacre (mass extermination) against the Muslims
The Muslim population of the Muslim minority provinces faced atrocities of the Hindu majority
[The Muslims] were not allowed to profess their religion freely
Hindu nationalism was being imposed upon Muslims and their culture
All India Congress turned into a pure Hindu organisation
The Congress was striving very hard to project the image of united India, which was actually aimed at the extermination of the Muslims from the Indian society
The two Hindu organisations [Congress and Mahasabha] were determined to destroy the national character of the Muslims to dominate and subjugate them perpetually.
This is only a sample. The entire book is interspersed with statements like the above. What the authors hope to achieve, and are perhaps quite successful in their attempt, is to create hate for Hindus, and in the process to create an enemy image. But it would be wrong however to suggest that this is done in a seamless and complete substitution of an imagined history for real events. There are glaring contradictions everywhere. For instance, Rabbani and Sayyid state at several places that the British patronised Hindus in order to crush Muslims, yet go on to say that the Hindus joined the 1857 mutiny, in one place even saying that they were equally responsible for the rebellion. They also admit that Muslims extracted (extraordinary) concessions from the British - including a separate electorate, a quota in the services, and the partition of Bengal. Similarly, they claim that the Indian National Congress turned into a pure Hindu organisation aimed at destroying Muslim culture, imposing Hindu nationalism upon Muslims and exterminating Muslims from the Indian society. Yet they are forced to admit at several places that many Muslims, including scholars like Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and Dr. Zakir Hussain, were among the top leadership of the Congress. Quite conspicuously, the book fails to mention that a very large number of Muslim ulema at the time, including Maudoodi, had opposed the creation of Pakistan.
The most charitable explanation of these and other glaring contradictions can be that the authors are not smart enough to have noticed them. A conclusion nearer to the truth would be that the contradictions are a result of deliberate distortions. The effect of these on a student is another matter. If the student notices these contradictions, and it is hard to not notice them, the student is expected to either ignore them and learn by heart selected topics to reproduce in examinations. A second, more dangerous, thing to learn is that there is no such thing as logical consistency in arguments and that there is nothing wrong in being contradictory.
As if this was not enough, education in Pakistan is now such that even the history of recent events, i.e. those within the lifetime of the parents of many of the children using these books, is not spared. For example while describing the events relating to the war of 1965 the book for Class 4 declares:
India always took initiative in souring relations between the two countries
and
on September 6, 1965, India launched an attack at the Lahore border without declaring war. Pakistani forces gave a befitting reply, and captured many Indian territorial areas``
A little later the same book describes the outcome of the war as:
At last in the face of the valour of Pakistani soldiers and the people, the Indians surrendered.
The text on Muasherati Ulum for Class V says in the same context:
In the face of defeat, India pleaded with the UN to stop the war. The war ended and Pakistan returned the Indian territories.
Not to be outdone, the book of Pakistan Studies ``Mutalia-e-Pakistan`` for classes 9 and 10 states, in the context of the separation of East Pakistan:
In 1971 while Pakistan was facing political difficulties in East Pakistan, India helped anti-Pakistan elements and later on attacked Pakistan.… As a result of this war in December 1971, the eastern wing of Pakistan separated and appeared as Bangladesh on the world map.
As may be evident, both these selections suffer from gross omissions related to the events leading to the two wars in which the adventurism of the Pakistani establishment (the 1965 war) or the systematic policy of keeping the Bengalis out of power (the 1971 war) played a key role in precipitating the respective crises. These are classic examples of presenting historical events in such a manner as to absolve the Pakistani state of its fair share of the blame while laying the entire onus for these catastrophes on enemies.
The History of History
The approach to history found in current textbooks is not a new phenomenon. The tradition of distortions in the written history of Pakistan is as old as Pakistan itself. The atrocious distortions seen today are built on earlier history texts written by ideologues like Ishtiaq Hussain Qureshi, for whom the distortion of facts about the movement for Pakistan was necessary to justify a particular view about the formation of the new state. For these early writers, the problem was to write a history of a people that did not satisfy the prevalent and generally accepted definition of a nation at a time when opponents of the creation of Pakistan, both Muslims and Hindus and particularly Indian nationalists, were questioning the legitimacy of the new state.
The solution these ideologues found was to put the two-nation theory of the pre-partition days on a strong pedestal, at least for Pakistanis. To achieve this, not only were some events of recent history presented with coloured arguments, but also some events were selectively omitted if they came into conflict with the theory. In particular, the political points that the Muslim League used in its forward thrust after the 1937 election debacle and the events leading to the 1940 Lahore Resolution were presented in a way that created an irrational hatred against Hindus as a community. This tendency laid the foundation of all subsequent official history of the Pakistan movement.
The history textbooks written in the early years of Pakistan attempted to establish the two-nation theory, and also needed to show that the Muslims would not have been happy in a united India dominated by a Hindu majority. Influenced particularly by the carnage of partition, Hindu-Muslim conflict was highlighted. But the history textbooks were still somewhat objective in the sense that the presentation of facts was not as selective and as distorted as it is now. The history of the great Hindu kingdoms was also told, as was the contribution of everyone in the freedom movement irrespective of his or her religious affiliation. Yet the recent history of the Pakistan movement, coloured by the demands of the two-nation theory, combined to create a strong enemy image of Hindus.
The art of writing history took another turn for the worse during Zia-ul-Haq’s dictatorship, when the hitherto obscure notion of an `Ideology of Pakistan` took centre stage. Much has been written about the distortions of history introduced in this period. What is important here is that the urge to establish the so-called `Ideology of Pakistan` meant throwing objectivity overboard. The authors of both the curriculum as well as textbooks proceeded to create irrational hate with an unprecedented vengeance.
It is the permanency of these latter distortions that is now astounding. They persist despite the recognition that the concept of an `ideology of Pakistan` was a vehicle used by Zia-ul-Haq to legitimise his rule and by Jamat-e-Islami to further its politics and even though the Jamat-e-Islami no longer enjoys state patronage and staunch anti-Zia political forces have held state power a couple of times. Their survival in the education system is a testament to the fundamental way in which curricula were changed at all levels -- from the very elementary classes to university, and because of the halo still surrounding the so-called ideology of Pakistan.
The Crisis
In addition to the many serious errors and the hostile messages generated by the textbooks in their eagerness to construct a picture of the historical development of Pakistan based on the so-called ideology of Pakistan, there are also very serious acts of omission.
One obvious omission is the place of minorities in the history of Pakistan. The acknowledgement that philanthropists and concerned people from these communities laid the foundations of many educational institutions, hospitals and social welfare schemes for both Muslims and non Muslims alike, in the cities now comprising Pakistan, would have given a greater sense of dignity and participation to these communities. Recognition of men such as A.R. Cornelius, Dorab Patel and Zafrullah Khan, among many others, who made major contributions to Pakistani society, would have created a sense of fraternity with the minorities.
The pervasive attitude in our textbooks, however, is that only Muslims can be good, courageous and patriotic Pakistanis. This rules out the possibility of any attitude above the level of petty chauvinism. It should come as no surprise to have witnessed what happened outside the court where two Christian youths accused of blasphemy were acquitted by the judge. A hostile crowd reacted wildly to the verdict by smashing cars and chanting death threats to the acquitted, their defenders and the judge. The unfortunate judge was later murdered brutally.
An even more fundamental omission from the educational system is one of context. Textbooks make every possible effort to maintain a sharp delineation between politics and economics, both in their discussion of the past and of more recent events. Ancient history appears simply as the chronicle of kings and their conquests or defeats, sometimes punctuated with references to communal differences. There is no mention anywhere of how the modern concepts of states and nations emerged, or how various periods in history were marked by different property and class relations, and how these can be used to understand social reality.
The saga of the recent (post independence) period is told only in terms of successive regimes, their conflicts with India and their attempts to expand ties with neighbours and Islamic countries. There is no mention of the various trends in our foreign alignments, e.g. pro-western and anticommunist, for the entire period of the cold war or what those alignments meant, or why and how the world has changed in this respect. The Chinese people and our friendship with them finds a mention at some places, but again in the same abstract way, i.e., not as a country with a very specific social and economic system but as our great and friendly neighbour who has always stood by us in times of difficulty.
Despite these textbooks being about the history of Pakistan not even a single paragraph mentions political developments in any serious way that would explain why the country disintegrated into two parts in1971, all the pious proclamations of religious brotherhood notwithstanding. Nor why the country has remained under military rule for a good twenty of the fifty years of it’s existence, or why poverty and illiteracy still plague the land.
While it is admittedly not easy to discuss contemporary events freely and dispassionately, it certainly remains possible, as some better (i.e. for the elite) textbooks show, to critically evaluate the past using modern political concepts. But the problem government sponsored text book writers face is a serious one. To discuss the concepts and relationships of feudalism in the past risks questions about their persistence in our society. To talk of the age of enlightenment and humanism, or to mention the slogans of ``Liberty, Equality and Fraternity`` in the context of the French Revolution, begs the question of why these are not applicable to our own society, still saddled with the baggage of social hierarchy, severe class differentials, and military domination.
Pakistan, while not being manifestly ideological in its social organisation, uses an ideology to perpetuate certain class privileges and monopolies over power, decision making, expression and consumption. The preservation of status quo in favour of the ruling elite becomes the touchstone for acceptability, indeed of the legality of ideas and mindset. Education is required in such a situation to serve the purposes not of liberating but enslaving the minds. It serves to propagate the wisdom and truth of the dogmas advantageous for the elite, and suppression of facts and attitudes inimical to those ends.
As a result of the twin demands, self imposed, of defining the Pakistani state and identity in purely religious terms and of not questioning the social and economic status quo, the scope of the educational process in generating any political and social awareness is severely limited. In turn, this lessens the ability of any political party with a serious agenda of reform or individuals even of impeccable pro-people credentials, to make any electoral impact.
But, instead of facing up to its failures the education system sticks to a process of memorising and reproducing dead, and often distorted facts verbatim. Not surprisingly then it produces frustrated, unemployed youth with no skills either for economic survival or social analysis. Lacking the tools of social and political organisation or consciousness, they are turning in increasing numbers towards crime or towards militant sectarian and ethnic outfits based on primitive loyalties of biradari, clan, ethnicity and sect where instinctive bonding replaces one formed by a rational social choice.
This tendency is not confined to the poorly educated. It is to be found among College and University students and is witnessed by the way that student organisations have degenerated from being programmatic and political to being based on ethnicity and sectarianism. In recent years `politics` in the educational institutions in Punjab has come to be dominated by the Jat-Arain biradari divide, while urban Sindh has seen the emergence of the Mohajir Students Organisation with allegiances cutting across class and ideological boundaries. An even more recent phenomenon are the student groups associated with militant Shia and Sunni sectarian formations.
This latter development points to another small but menacingly growing corner in the educational landscape of Pakistan where a different kind of intolerance and hate is being cultivated. These deeni madaris (religious schools) are growing in numbers and enrolment. The older students in them are taught through sectarian polemics with pungent criticism bordering on hate. The dogmatic mindset created by the madaris is therefore highly intolerant of other faiths and now feeds an increasingly militant sectarian conflict. Not content with this, some madaris are reported to provide military training to their students.
The sectarian divide between Shias and Sunnis and within Sunnis is not new. It has existed since the resurgence of religious schools in the sub-continent in the later half of the nineteenth century. The first large darul-ulum at Deoband was Sunni. Its founders, Maulana Mohammad Qasim Nanotvi and Maulana Rashid Ahmed Gangohi, both wrote polemical commentaries challenging the veracity of the Shia faith. Among the Sunnis, the Barelvi school upheld the custom-laden mystic (sufi) religious practices around shrines, and challenged the puritanism of the Deobandi school. The Ahl-e-Hadith were even more fundamentalist in outlook than Deobandis. A joint target of all these sects was the new sect of Ghulam Ahmed of Qadian, which was later unanimously ex-communicated from the pale of Islam.
Given such beginnings, the madrassa curricula had to have discussions on these differences. These 19th century sectarian critiques, along with modern derivatives, are part of the curriculum even today. For example, the Wafaq ul Madaris (Deobandi) curriculum has the following topics and texts in their grade Aaliah (13th and 14th years of schooling). The list below contains a selection from a prescribed bibliography on the critique of Christianity, Judaism, atheism, Qadiani faith, Shiaism, Barelvi faith, Ahl-e-Hadith, and the teachings of Abul Ala Maudoodi:
Abtal e Usul ush Shi’a Bid Dalael e Aqliah wan Naqliah, (Rejection of the Shia faith on reasons of logic as well as of the revealed knowledge) by Maulana Abdur Rahim Bijnori
Hidayatush Shi’a, (a polemical commentary on the Shia faith) by Maulana Qasim Nanotvi
Hidayatush Shi’a, by Maulana Rashid Ahmed Gangohi
Naseehatush Shi’a, by Maulana Ehtesham ul Hasan
Barelvi Fatway - Faisla Kun Munazerah, (Barelvi religious edicts: the decisive debate) by Maulana Mohammad Manzoor Nomani
Deoband se Bareli Tak, (From Deoband to Bareli) by Maulana Abdul Quddus Roomi
Maudoodi Mazhab, (The religion of Maudoodi) by Qazi Mazhar Hussain
Ahl-e-Hadith Aur Angrez: Tark-e-Taqleed ke Bhyanak Nataej, (Ahl-e-Hadith and the British: horrendous consequences of abandoning tradition) by Maulana Bashir Ahmed Qadri
It is hard to imagine a process of education less likely to contribute towards a strong commitment to increasing tolerance and democratisation in society. There is no prospect within such a system of creating doubt, of raising questions, of provoking thought, and certainly no possibility of challenging the finality and superiority of the presuppositions and biases that are being taught. It is mind control, propaganda and indoctrination masquerading as an educational process.
Conclusion
The Pakistani state has intervened in the educational process in two fundamental ways. First, it has encouraged students to be uncritical, submissive to authority and treat education as a process simply of memorising certain `facts`. At the same time, it encourages teachers to adopt the authoritarian attitude required for establishing the finality of their word and those in textbooks. Second, it has enforced the distortion of historical facts in textbooks, encouraged religious chauvinism and glorified militarism. It has also deprived students of role models who could have inspired and motivated them towards creativity and to address the conflicts of their society in a humanistic, compassionate and intelligent manner.
The violence manifest in Pakistani society reflects the failure to try to create a critical mindset and a social consciousness. It is an indicator of a people incapable of attacking the roots of their social and political disempowerment, turning upon themselves in a masochistic rage.
You are good guy but too easily suckered like anny. Dont be angry with me. What do you know about Pakistan?
I am sick of American school going Pakistani liers like ylh and their Indian defenders like Eklaviya.
Everyone may read verbatim material written by Pakistani researchers concerned at history taught to Paksitani boys and girls. This is history as it is taught, not any proposals for future. It is long so I ask Indian readers to please spend some time reading it. IT WILL OPEN EYES OF EVEN HYPOCRATES LIKE EKLAVIYA who dont want see any evil in Pakistan.
Indians read this. Pakistanis who really wanting to know the truth read this too. This is history as taught in Pakistan. How in author`s words Pakistanis fill their children`s minds with hatred. Authors say ``it is mind control, propaganda and indoctrination masquerading as an educational process``.
A national social process to shape children`s’ minds.
By Khurshid Hasanain and A. H. Nayyar
A national social process to shape children`s’
The most recent national curriculum document, which determines what is taught in all government schools, was prepared by the Ministry of Education in 1994. It lists the following as some of the purposes of teaching the national language, Urdu. The student should:
a) be able to take pride in the Islamic way of life, and should try to acquire Islamic knowledge and to adopt it;
b) read religious books in order to understand Quranic teachings;
c) listen to events from the Islamic history, and should be able to derive pleasure from them (khushi mehsoos karen);
d) also know that national culture is not local culture or local customs (our emphasis), but it means the culture whose principles have been determined by Islam.
Since identity is constructed in large part through language, the overwhelming impression from reading this set of objectives is that the learning of language itself has to serve Islamic religious purposes, and is to hold even for those students who may not be Muslims. Thus the image that the child develops right from the start is that there is a special place for the Muslims and the `Islamic` way of life which overrides the right of all citizens to be viewed as being equal and to take full pride in their own ways of living and beliefs.
The most amazing of the purported objectives, however, is the one which seeks to convince students of the divorce of national culture from any regional or local context. In other words what exists as culture, and what the child experiences and lives in, are not the real culture. Rather, it is something else transcending the child`s own reality. This view, of course, conveniently overlooks the fact of an actually existing regional and local culture which encompasses the cultures and identities of various religions.
Such a construction of culture points the way for a later structuring of the learning of history. History and Pakistan studies textbooks rarely mention the ancient and non-controversial cultures of the Indus valley (Moenjodaro, Harrappa and Kot Diji), and completely bypass the entire Buddhist and Hindu periods of history. They suddenly jump to the advent of Mohammed bin Qasim in India and treat it as the beginning of history for all practical purposes. The specific ideological basis of this structuring is to make children regard the Muslim part of the history as the only relevant and certainly the most significant part. This process reaches its culmination with the specific learning objective suggested by the curriculum:
To understand the Hindu Muslim differences and the resultant need for Pakistan
In view of such politically motivated suggestions from the curriculum, it is not surprising that the textbooks have a markedly communal and even chauvinistic attitude. The Class I textbook of the Punjab textbook board declares:
Pakistan is our country. We live in our country. Pakistan is an Islamic country. Muslims live here. Muslims believe in one God. They do good deeds.
The implications of the above statements are very obvious. The country belongs to Muslims, and others do not really have any claim to it. This of course is justified by the logic that doing good deeds is expected of Muslims alone. It is clear that by implanting these notions in the minds of children, and omitting any favourable mention of the minorities in Pakistan or peoples of other faiths outside Pakistan, the books sow the seeds of contempt and conflict.
The Hindu
Following the instructions given as `Specific Learning Objectives` in the curriculum for Pakistan/Social Studies for Class V, namely ``to understand the Hindu and Muslim differences and the resultant need for Pakistan``, the writers project Hindu-Muslim differences. A survey of textbooks reveals this theme running through them all the way up to the graduation level. It can be summarised as follows: Muslims and Hindus lived always in a deeply hostile and antagonistic relationship. The Muslims were broadminded, accommodating and brought enlightenment to an otherwise inhuman society characterised only by the caste system and the practice of Sati.
The class 4 text book states:
The religion of the Hindus did not teach them good things -- Hindus did not respect women...
Another book tells the students:
Hindus worship in temples which are very narrow and dark places, where they worship idols. Only one person can enter the temple at a time. In our mosques, on the other hand, all Muslims can say their prayers together.
For another, the Hindus as a monolith were always cunning, scheming, and conspiring to deprive the Muslims of their due rights:
The Hindus always desired to crush the Muslims as a nation. Several attempts were made by the Hindus to erase the Muslim culture and civilisation. Hindi-Urdu controversy, shudhi and sanghtan movements are the most glaring examples of the ignoble Hindu mentality .
If the Hindus had any national aspirations then these were clearly a sign of their prejudices, while if the Muslim kings and invaders plundered Hindu temples then presumably they did so with very noble intentions.
The experience of colonialism is described in a textbook as a British-Hindu conspiracy:
The British joined forces with the Hindus to bring harm to the Muslims. Muslims tried in every way to maintain good relations with the British and Hindus, but they did not allow it to be so.
This typecasting of Hindus as a nation of collaborators in league with their colonial masters is typical. The entire freedom struggle is thus represented as though it was primarily a struggle of Muslims against a joint force of British and Hindus:
Exploiting the anti-Muslim policy of the British, the Hindus fully collaborated with them and obtained all kinds of monetary benefits. The British opened the doors of government service to them and also encouraged them in trade and commerce.
One book declares:
He (Mr. Jinnah) wanted to establish here a separate homeland for the Muslims . The Hindus did not like this and became his enemies. The English were also with Hindus.
Descriptions of the traumas of partition and the horrors that occurred are treated in a similarly biased manner:
While the Muslims provided all type of help to those wishing to leave Pakistan, the people of India committed cruelties against the Muslims (refugees). They would attack the buses, trucks, and trains carrying the Muslim refugees and they were murdered and looted.
It is hard to see such material as anything but an effort to fill young minds with hatred against an enemy, rather than against the acts of depravity and savagery committed by both sides.
Significantly, Sikhs are spared the same treatment in the textbooks. This is despite the fact that East and West Punjab witnessed the most savage acts of violence. This points to a desire for the fiction of a simple bipolar conflict of Muslim Pakistan and Hindu India.
The historical and cultural inevitability of Hindu-Muslim conflict and the attendant creation of irrational hate against Hindus are not confined to the curriculum and textbooks for young children in government primary schools. It continues all the way up to the degree level and extends even into the private education sector. No sector of education is immune.
A few examples from a textbook on Pakistan Studies for Intermediate and Senior Cambridge classes, which is prescribed even in the elite English-medium private schools, are given below to highlight the seriousness of the problem, and to gauge from this the extent to which such books are contributing to irrationality and intolerance in elite society. The authors teach at the prestigious Government College Lahore, and Aitchison College Lahore respectively. The book states:
The British, with the assistance of the Hindus, adopted a cruel policy of mass exodus against the Muslims to erase them as a nation
The British adopted a policy of large scale massacre (mass extermination) against the Muslims
The Muslim population of the Muslim minority provinces faced atrocities of the Hindu majority
[The Muslims] were not allowed to profess their religion freely
Hindu nationalism was being imposed upon Muslims and their culture
All India Congress turned into a pure Hindu organisation
The Congress was striving very hard to project the image of united India, which was actually aimed at the extermination of the Muslims from the Indian society
The two Hindu organisations [Congress and Mahasabha] were determined to destroy the national character of the Muslims to dominate and subjugate them perpetually.
This is only a sample. The entire book is interspersed with statements like the above. What the authors hope to achieve, and are perhaps quite successful in their attempt, is to create hate for Hindus, and in the process to create an enemy image. But it would be wrong however to suggest that this is done in a seamless and complete substitution of an imagined history for real events. There are glaring contradictions everywhere. For instance, Rabbani and Sayyid state at several places that the British patronised Hindus in order to crush Muslims, yet go on to say that the Hindus joined the 1857 mutiny, in one place even saying that they were equally responsible for the rebellion. They also admit that Muslims extracted (extraordinary) concessions from the British - including a separate electorate, a quota in the services, and the partition of Bengal. Similarly, they claim that the Indian National Congress turned into a pure Hindu organisation aimed at destroying Muslim culture, imposing Hindu nationalism upon Muslims and exterminating Muslims from the Indian society. Yet they are forced to admit at several places that many Muslims, including scholars like Maulana Abul Kalam Azad and Dr. Zakir Hussain, were among the top leadership of the Congress. Quite conspicuously, the book fails to mention that a very large number of Muslim ulema at the time, including Maudoodi, had opposed the creation of Pakistan.
The most charitable explanation of these and other glaring contradictions can be that the authors are not smart enough to have noticed them. A conclusion nearer to the truth would be that the contradictions are a result of deliberate distortions. The effect of these on a student is another matter. If the student notices these contradictions, and it is hard to not notice them, the student is expected to either ignore them and learn by heart selected topics to reproduce in examinations. A second, more dangerous, thing to learn is that there is no such thing as logical consistency in arguments and that there is nothing wrong in being contradictory.
As if this was not enough, education in Pakistan is now such that even the history of recent events, i.e. those within the lifetime of the parents of many of the children using these books, is not spared. For example while describing the events relating to the war of 1965 the book for Class 4 declares:
India always took initiative in souring relations between the two countries
and
on September 6, 1965, India launched an attack at the Lahore border without declaring war. Pakistani forces gave a befitting reply, and captured many Indian territorial areas``
A little later the same book describes the outcome of the war as:
At last in the face of the valour of Pakistani soldiers and the people, the Indians surrendered.
The text on Muasherati Ulum for Class V says in the same context:
In the face of defeat, India pleaded with the UN to stop the war. The war ended and Pakistan returned the Indian territories.
Not to be outdone, the book of Pakistan Studies ``Mutalia-e-Pakistan`` for classes 9 and 10 states, in the context of the separation of East Pakistan:
In 1971 while Pakistan was facing political difficulties in East Pakistan, India helped anti-Pakistan elements and later on attacked Pakistan.… As a result of this war in December 1971, the eastern wing of Pakistan separated and appeared as Bangladesh on the world map.
As may be evident, both these selections suffer from gross omissions related to the events leading to the two wars in which the adventurism of the Pakistani establishment (the 1965 war) or the systematic policy of keeping the Bengalis out of power (the 1971 war) played a key role in precipitating the respective crises. These are classic examples of presenting historical events in such a manner as to absolve the Pakistani state of its fair share of the blame while laying the entire onus for these catastrophes on enemies.
The History of History
The approach to history found in current textbooks is not a new phenomenon. The tradition of distortions in the written history of Pakistan is as old as Pakistan itself. The atrocious distortions seen today are built on earlier history texts written by ideologues like Ishtiaq Hussain Qureshi, for whom the distortion of facts about the movement for Pakistan was necessary to justify a particular view about the formation of the new state. For these early writers, the problem was to write a history of a people that did not satisfy the prevalent and generally accepted definition of a nation at a time when opponents of the creation of Pakistan, both Muslims and Hindus and particularly Indian nationalists, were questioning the legitimacy of the new state.
The solution these ideologues found was to put the two-nation theory of the pre-partition days on a strong pedestal, at least for Pakistanis. To achieve this, not only were some events of recent history presented with coloured arguments, but also some events were selectively omitted if they came into conflict with the theory. In particular, the political points that the Muslim League used in its forward thrust after the 1937 election debacle and the events leading to the 1940 Lahore Resolution were presented in a way that created an irrational hatred against Hindus as a community. This tendency laid the foundation of all subsequent official history of the Pakistan movement.
The history textbooks written in the early years of Pakistan attempted to establish the two-nation theory, and also needed to show that the Muslims would not have been happy in a united India dominated by a Hindu majority. Influenced particularly by the carnage of partition, Hindu-Muslim conflict was highlighted. But the history textbooks were still somewhat objective in the sense that the presentation of facts was not as selective and as distorted as it is now. The history of the great Hindu kingdoms was also told, as was the contribution of everyone in the freedom movement irrespective of his or her religious affiliation. Yet the recent history of the Pakistan movement, coloured by the demands of the two-nation theory, combined to create a strong enemy image of Hindus.
The art of writing history took another turn for the worse during Zia-ul-Haq’s dictatorship, when the hitherto obscure notion of an `Ideology of Pakistan` took centre stage. Much has been written about the distortions of history introduced in this period. What is important here is that the urge to establish the so-called `Ideology of Pakistan` meant throwing objectivity overboard. The authors of both the curriculum as well as textbooks proceeded to create irrational hate with an unprecedented vengeance.
It is the permanency of these latter distortions that is now astounding. They persist despite the recognition that the concept of an `ideology of Pakistan` was a vehicle used by Zia-ul-Haq to legitimise his rule and by Jamat-e-Islami to further its politics and even though the Jamat-e-Islami no longer enjoys state patronage and staunch anti-Zia political forces have held state power a couple of times. Their survival in the education system is a testament to the fundamental way in which curricula were changed at all levels -- from the very elementary classes to university, and because of the halo still surrounding the so-called ideology of Pakistan.
The Crisis
In addition to the many serious errors and the hostile messages generated by the textbooks in their eagerness to construct a picture of the historical development of Pakistan based on the so-called ideology of Pakistan, there are also very serious acts of omission.
One obvious omission is the place of minorities in the history of Pakistan. The acknowledgement that philanthropists and concerned people from these communities laid the foundations of many educational institutions, hospitals and social welfare schemes for both Muslims and non Muslims alike, in the cities now comprising Pakistan, would have given a greater sense of dignity and participation to these communities. Recognition of men such as A.R. Cornelius, Dorab Patel and Zafrullah Khan, among many others, who made major contributions to Pakistani society, would have created a sense of fraternity with the minorities.
The pervasive attitude in our textbooks, however, is that only Muslims can be good, courageous and patriotic Pakistanis. This rules out the possibility of any attitude above the level of petty chauvinism. It should come as no surprise to have witnessed what happened outside the court where two Christian youths accused of blasphemy were acquitted by the judge. A hostile crowd reacted wildly to the verdict by smashing cars and chanting death threats to the acquitted, their defenders and the judge. The unfortunate judge was later murdered brutally.
An even more fundamental omission from the educational system is one of context. Textbooks make every possible effort to maintain a sharp delineation between politics and economics, both in their discussion of the past and of more recent events. Ancient history appears simply as the chronicle of kings and their conquests or defeats, sometimes punctuated with references to communal differences. There is no mention anywhere of how the modern concepts of states and nations emerged, or how various periods in history were marked by different property and class relations, and how these can be used to understand social reality.
The saga of the recent (post independence) period is told only in terms of successive regimes, their conflicts with India and their attempts to expand ties with neighbours and Islamic countries. There is no mention of the various trends in our foreign alignments, e.g. pro-western and anticommunist, for the entire period of the cold war or what those alignments meant, or why and how the world has changed in this respect. The Chinese people and our friendship with them finds a mention at some places, but again in the same abstract way, i.e., not as a country with a very specific social and economic system but as our great and friendly neighbour who has always stood by us in times of difficulty.
Despite these textbooks being about the history of Pakistan not even a single paragraph mentions political developments in any serious way that would explain why the country disintegrated into two parts in1971, all the pious proclamations of religious brotherhood notwithstanding. Nor why the country has remained under military rule for a good twenty of the fifty years of it’s existence, or why poverty and illiteracy still plague the land.
While it is admittedly not easy to discuss contemporary events freely and dispassionately, it certainly remains possible, as some better (i.e. for the elite) textbooks show, to critically evaluate the past using modern political concepts. But the problem government sponsored text book writers face is a serious one. To discuss the concepts and relationships of feudalism in the past risks questions about their persistence in our society. To talk of the age of enlightenment and humanism, or to mention the slogans of ``Liberty, Equality and Fraternity`` in the context of the French Revolution, begs the question of why these are not applicable to our own society, still saddled with the baggage of social hierarchy, severe class differentials, and military domination.
Pakistan, while not being manifestly ideological in its social organisation, uses an ideology to perpetuate certain class privileges and monopolies over power, decision making, expression and consumption. The preservation of status quo in favour of the ruling elite becomes the touchstone for acceptability, indeed of the legality of ideas and mindset. Education is required in such a situation to serve the purposes not of liberating but enslaving the minds. It serves to propagate the wisdom and truth of the dogmas advantageous for the elite, and suppression of facts and attitudes inimical to those ends.
As a result of the twin demands, self imposed, of defining the Pakistani state and identity in purely religious terms and of not questioning the social and economic status quo, the scope of the educational process in generating any political and social awareness is severely limited. In turn, this lessens the ability of any political party with a serious agenda of reform or individuals even of impeccable pro-people credentials, to make any electoral impact.
But, instead of facing up to its failures the education system sticks to a process of memorising and reproducing dead, and often distorted facts verbatim. Not surprisingly then it produces frustrated, unemployed youth with no skills either for economic survival or social analysis. Lacking the tools of social and political organisation or consciousness, they are turning in increasing numbers towards crime or towards militant sectarian and ethnic outfits based on primitive loyalties of biradari, clan, ethnicity and sect where instinctive bonding replaces one formed by a rational social choice.
This tendency is not confined to the poorly educated. It is to be found among College and University students and is witnessed by the way that student organisations have degenerated from being programmatic and political to being based on ethnicity and sectarianism. In recent years `politics` in the educational institutions in Punjab has come to be dominated by the Jat-Arain biradari divide, while urban Sindh has seen the emergence of the Mohajir Students Organisation with allegiances cutting across class and ideological boundaries. An even more recent phenomenon are the student groups associated with militant Shia and Sunni sectarian formations.
This latter development points to another small but menacingly growing corner in the educational landscape of Pakistan where a different kind of intolerance and hate is being cultivated. These deeni madaris (religious schools) are growing in numbers and enrolment. The older students in them are taught through sectarian polemics with pungent criticism bordering on hate. The dogmatic mindset created by the madaris is therefore highly intolerant of other faiths and now feeds an increasingly militant sectarian conflict. Not content with this, some madaris are reported to provide military training to their students.
The sectarian divide between Shias and Sunnis and within Sunnis is not new. It has existed since the resurgence of religious schools in the sub-continent in the later half of the nineteenth century. The first large darul-ulum at Deoband was Sunni. Its founders, Maulana Mohammad Qasim Nanotvi and Maulana Rashid Ahmed Gangohi, both wrote polemical commentaries challenging the veracity of the Shia faith. Among the Sunnis, the Barelvi school upheld the custom-laden mystic (sufi) religious practices around shrines, and challenged the puritanism of the Deobandi school. The Ahl-e-Hadith were even more fundamentalist in outlook than Deobandis. A joint target of all these sects was the new sect of Ghulam Ahmed of Qadian, which was later unanimously ex-communicated from the pale of Islam.
Given such beginnings, the madrassa curricula had to have discussions on these differences. These 19th century sectarian critiques, along with modern derivatives, are part of the curriculum even today. For example, the Wafaq ul Madaris (Deobandi) curriculum has the following topics and texts in their grade Aaliah (13th and 14th years of schooling). The list below contains a selection from a prescribed bibliography on the critique of Christianity, Judaism, atheism, Qadiani faith, Shiaism, Barelvi faith, Ahl-e-Hadith, and the teachings of Abul Ala Maudoodi:
Abtal e Usul ush Shi’a Bid Dalael e Aqliah wan Naqliah, (Rejection of the Shia faith on reasons of logic as well as of the revealed knowledge) by Maulana Abdur Rahim Bijnori
Hidayatush Shi’a, (a polemical commentary on the Shia faith) by Maulana Qasim Nanotvi
Hidayatush Shi’a, by Maulana Rashid Ahmed Gangohi
Naseehatush Shi’a, by Maulana Ehtesham ul Hasan
Barelvi Fatway - Faisla Kun Munazerah, (Barelvi religious edicts: the decisive debate) by Maulana Mohammad Manzoor Nomani
Deoband se Bareli Tak, (From Deoband to Bareli) by Maulana Abdul Quddus Roomi
Maudoodi Mazhab, (The religion of Maudoodi) by Qazi Mazhar Hussain
Ahl-e-Hadith Aur Angrez: Tark-e-Taqleed ke Bhyanak Nataej, (Ahl-e-Hadith and the British: horrendous consequences of abandoning tradition) by Maulana Bashir Ahmed Qadri
It is hard to imagine a process of education less likely to contribute towards a strong commitment to increasing tolerance and democratisation in society. There is no prospect within such a system of creating doubt, of raising questions, of provoking thought, and certainly no possibility of challenging the finality and superiority of the presuppositions and biases that are being taught. It is mind control, propaganda and indoctrination masquerading as an educational process.
Conclusion
The Pakistani state has intervened in the educational process in two fundamental ways. First, it has encouraged students to be uncritical, submissive to authority and treat education as a process simply of memorising certain `facts`. At the same time, it encourages teachers to adopt the authoritarian attitude required for establishing the finality of their word and those in textbooks. Second, it has enforced the distortion of historical facts in textbooks, encouraged religious chauvinism and glorified militarism. It has also deprived students of role models who could have inspired and motivated them towards creativity and to address the conflicts of their society in a humanistic, compassionate and intelligent manner.
The violence manifest in Pakistani society reflects the failure to try to create a critical mindset and a social consciousness. It is an indicator of a people incapable of attacking the roots of their social and political disempowerment, turning upon themselves in a masochistic rage.
#169 Posted by Binifer on October 29, 2001 1:32:33 am
suksena
(did your hubby-to-be escape at the very last minute? jumped out the window and ran for his life? no? then what are you so angry about, hun?)
no pumpkin- he`s very much around and still wants to marry me
koee nayeee line dhoondo ab beta. youve exhausted this one.
(did your hubby-to-be escape at the very last minute? jumped out the window and ran for his life? no? then what are you so angry about, hun?)
no pumpkin- he`s very much around and still wants to marry me
koee nayeee line dhoondo ab beta. youve exhausted this one.
#168 Posted by Trillium on October 29, 2001 1:32:33 am
Ram-rahim! Is it really you? Still married to your biological sister?
#167 Posted by Eklavya on October 29, 2001 1:32:33 am
Dear Mr. Gowardhan,
All of us on Chowk are grateful that you have decided to shoulder the burden of educating Pakistanis about our history. My salutations to you.
In my humility, may I make a small, teeny-weeny suggestion: Kindly learn the meaning of Maan Na Maan, Mai Tera Mehamaan. Given your wide-ranging scholarly interests, this task shall not be an excessive burden for you.
Once you have mastered that challenge, do us all another favor: go and look for a life.
All of us on Chowk are grateful that you have decided to shoulder the burden of educating Pakistanis about our history. My salutations to you.
In my humility, may I make a small, teeny-weeny suggestion: Kindly learn the meaning of Maan Na Maan, Mai Tera Mehamaan. Given your wide-ranging scholarly interests, this task shall not be an excessive burden for you.
Once you have mastered that challenge, do us all another favor: go and look for a life.
#166 Posted by satyavadi on October 29, 2001 1:32:33 am
sarwari #153, YLH #150, Rsaxena #145:
Though this is none of my business. is this story about Bhartiya Musalman and Aisha Sarwari true?
Because I always had the impression that YLH, Saxena and BM were taking pot shots at each other at the expense of the not-so-poor Sarwari..
Now did this BM guy really know Sarwari? Has he really gone to SJ to really ask her hand in marriage? What will YLH do now, since he has been openly courting and maska-maroing Sarwari on Chowk for a long time? Where does Saxena fit in?
Guys involved please enlighten, and if you mind me asking please take your matter off Chowk.
Thank you,
Satyavadi
Though this is none of my business. is this story about Bhartiya Musalman and Aisha Sarwari true?
Because I always had the impression that YLH, Saxena and BM were taking pot shots at each other at the expense of the not-so-poor Sarwari..
Now did this BM guy really know Sarwari? Has he really gone to SJ to really ask her hand in marriage? What will YLH do now, since he has been openly courting and maska-maroing Sarwari on Chowk for a long time? Where does Saxena fit in?
Guys involved please enlighten, and if you mind me asking please take your matter off Chowk.
Thank you,
Satyavadi
#165 Posted by rsaxena on October 29, 2001 1:32:33 am
Re: sarwari
``I dont wish to interact with a loser like yourself, so please dont bother me. As for your buddy,``
Put your paw on your mouse and scroll that button up and down on the right scroll bar. Good. Now do you see any posts by me addressed to you? NO! So beat it.
``I dont wish to interact with a loser like yourself, so please dont bother me. As for your buddy,``
Put your paw on your mouse and scroll that button up and down on the right scroll bar. Good. Now do you see any posts by me addressed to you? NO! So beat it.
#164 Posted by rsaxena on October 29, 2001 1:32:33 am
Re: ylh
``Yes why did Bhartiya Musalman go to San Jose... he went there to plead with Aisha`s family to give her hand in marriage to him. Loser kahin kaaa, now he wasted his `religious cleric` father`s hard earned money to go there for nothing.``
Hehe....dude, that`s some hilarious $hit.
``Dont I have the right not to like him?``
Of course you do. But then don`t I have the right to expose Jinnah?
``Yes why did Bhartiya Musalman go to San Jose... he went there to plead with Aisha`s family to give her hand in marriage to him. Loser kahin kaaa, now he wasted his `religious cleric` father`s hard earned money to go there for nothing.``
Hehe....dude, that`s some hilarious $hit.
``Dont I have the right not to like him?``
Of course you do. But then don`t I have the right to expose Jinnah?
#163 Posted by ZafarA on October 29, 2001 1:32:33 am
Reply RSaxena # 140
``...bharatiya_musalman is in San Jose right now. I wonder what he`s doing there.``
Ayesha is NOT Bharatiya Mussalman, okay?!!
I have studies both of their writing and Ayesha ki stle BM ke style se bilkul alag hai.
Aap kya kya insinuate karthe hain, Saxenaji...very naughty, very naughty, do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars...
Zafar
PS NO, she isn`t one of Bapu`s avatars EITHER...
``...bharatiya_musalman is in San Jose right now. I wonder what he`s doing there.``
Ayesha is NOT Bharatiya Mussalman, okay?!!
I have studies both of their writing and Ayesha ki stle BM ke style se bilkul alag hai.
Aap kya kya insinuate karthe hain, Saxenaji...very naughty, very naughty, do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars...
Zafar
PS NO, she isn`t one of Bapu`s avatars EITHER...
#162 Posted by ylh on October 29, 2001 1:32:33 am
Individualistic destiny is sought not in terms of humanity in general... Individualistic destiny means a destiny divorced from political concerns for the Ummah, religious community etc.
#161 Posted by ylh on October 29, 2001 1:32:33 am
tahmed:
`Define nation for me, if you please. Seriously. And explain why it has any relevance in this age of globalization. Thank you.`
Nation in the `age of globalization and modernism` just simply means a group of people sharing certain cultural values plus political unity such as Pakistan. A people sharing cultural values with political unity is a community as opposed to nation.
Unfortunately to assume that the `age of globalization` has set in is wrong ... now more than ever individualism and political nationalism can help contain the threat of global fundamentalism or global terrorism.... but thats a long debate ...in any event the `existence` of a nation is not central to my definition of Kemalism. It is a unit that exists and thus has to be used as a building block of the unified world.... isnt it ironic that the EU for example seeks unity in `devolution` by moving the traditional centers and devolving authority?
A modern `Unified` World will be a Multinational world not a world without nations... hence Kemalism makes a distinction between inward looking nationalism and outward looking nationalism.
-YLH
`Define nation for me, if you please. Seriously. And explain why it has any relevance in this age of globalization. Thank you.`
Nation in the `age of globalization and modernism` just simply means a group of people sharing certain cultural values plus political unity such as Pakistan. A people sharing cultural values with political unity is a community as opposed to nation.
Unfortunately to assume that the `age of globalization` has set in is wrong ... now more than ever individualism and political nationalism can help contain the threat of global fundamentalism or global terrorism.... but thats a long debate ...in any event the `existence` of a nation is not central to my definition of Kemalism. It is a unit that exists and thus has to be used as a building block of the unified world.... isnt it ironic that the EU for example seeks unity in `devolution` by moving the traditional centers and devolving authority?
A modern `Unified` World will be a Multinational world not a world without nations... hence Kemalism makes a distinction between inward looking nationalism and outward looking nationalism.
-YLH
#160 Posted by ylh on October 29, 2001 1:32:33 am
anny,
you are right... there is no point arguing with these people... their hearts and minds are closed, and they are argue on the basis of hearsay which usually emanates from their biased and inaccurate media!
-YLH
you are right... there is no point arguing with these people... their hearts and minds are closed, and they are argue on the basis of hearsay which usually emanates from their biased and inaccurate media!
-YLH
#159 Posted by ylh on October 29, 2001 1:32:33 am
`When the whole world studies departure of British rulers in 1947, whole world makes Gandhi a central person.`
Yes when the whole world means `India`... Come one what role did Gandhi really play... let us not kid ourselves... only a fool will believe that Gandhi drove the British out of the subcontinent...
You keep declaring the books that I read in school were Pakistani... Like I said, the books I read, since I didnot take any Pakistani exams were Longman books... Oxford Books... You are welcome to read the books mentioned earlier...
Further more the book I read in my final year of High school and also towards my British A Level exams was : `Modern World History`, it was by a British Author, and was the same book that students were taught in England....
My question to you Mr Gowardhan the Pakistan-obsessed idiot is that have you ever seen a Pakistani book.. and what constitutes a Pakistani book? Are O Level `Pakistan Studies` Books considered Pakistani? If so then I have given you the names.. go read them and see for yourself. After O Levels accounts for 35% of all SSEs right?
If they are matric, then please examine for yourself Punjab text book Board Pakistan studies book or Sindh text book board Pakistan studies book
The mess that has been made in Pakistani history books that everyone points to is the depiction of Jinnah as a religious leader... that is the revisionism that everyone is worried about. Zia made a concerted effort to `Islamicize` Jinnah and the Pakistani ideology. You on the other hand accuse us of revisionism when we say that Jinnah didnt want Pakistan to be an Islamic state... then are you suggesting that Pakistani books are telling the truth?
Yes when the whole world means `India`... Come one what role did Gandhi really play... let us not kid ourselves... only a fool will believe that Gandhi drove the British out of the subcontinent...
You keep declaring the books that I read in school were Pakistani... Like I said, the books I read, since I didnot take any Pakistani exams were Longman books... Oxford Books... You are welcome to read the books mentioned earlier...
Further more the book I read in my final year of High school and also towards my British A Level exams was : `Modern World History`, it was by a British Author, and was the same book that students were taught in England....
My question to you Mr Gowardhan the Pakistan-obsessed idiot is that have you ever seen a Pakistani book.. and what constitutes a Pakistani book? Are O Level `Pakistan Studies` Books considered Pakistani? If so then I have given you the names.. go read them and see for yourself. After O Levels accounts for 35% of all SSEs right?
If they are matric, then please examine for yourself Punjab text book Board Pakistan studies book or Sindh text book board Pakistan studies book
The mess that has been made in Pakistani history books that everyone points to is the depiction of Jinnah as a religious leader... that is the revisionism that everyone is worried about. Zia made a concerted effort to `Islamicize` Jinnah and the Pakistani ideology. You on the other hand accuse us of revisionism when we say that Jinnah didnt want Pakistan to be an Islamic state... then are you suggesting that Pakistani books are telling the truth?
#158 Posted by ylh on October 29, 2001 1:32:33 am
`You mention some other book but not your school history books`
What the f are you babbling about? The book I mentioned (`First steps in our history` for Grades 5 and 6) was the only book I read in school for subcontinental History... all the rest of them were Americans and were not concerned about Pakistan or India too much.
Now let us see the `O` Level Syllabus for Pakistan Studies....
The books that Pakistani schools carry for O level students in Pakistan studies are:
1) Pakistan Studies: Investigations into a Political Economy 1948-1988 BY Nadeem Qaiser
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195774124/qid=1004320090/sr=1-16/ref=sr_1_12_16/002-4218328-8748833
2) Pakistan a Formative Phase
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195771141/qid=1004320180/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_8_1/002-4218328-8748833
The first one has a huge chapter on 1971 war and the causes of the loss of East Pakistan. You will find it interesting and a good read.
But then again a bigot like you will not want to put your stereotypes to rest...
What the f are you babbling about? The book I mentioned (`First steps in our history` for Grades 5 and 6) was the only book I read in school for subcontinental History... all the rest of them were Americans and were not concerned about Pakistan or India too much.
Now let us see the `O` Level Syllabus for Pakistan Studies....
The books that Pakistani schools carry for O level students in Pakistan studies are:
1) Pakistan Studies: Investigations into a Political Economy 1948-1988 BY Nadeem Qaiser
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195774124/qid=1004320090/sr=1-16/ref=sr_1_12_16/002-4218328-8748833
2) Pakistan a Formative Phase
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195771141/qid=1004320180/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_8_1/002-4218328-8748833
The first one has a huge chapter on 1971 war and the causes of the loss of East Pakistan. You will find it interesting and a good read.
But then again a bigot like you will not want to put your stereotypes to rest...
#157 Posted by ylh on October 29, 2001 1:32:33 am
Gowardhan,
You idiot....why do I even bother with you.
In 5th grade I learnt subcontinental History ... that was the only time I read about Jinnah in school till my A Level World History class once again an western book with one or two sentences about partition, In 6th and 7th grades I learnt world History... In 8th Grade we learnt about the French revolution and the Industrial revolution followed by some introduction into Napoleonic wars...
Then I took History in 10th grade and it was Modern European History 1 which also filled my O level requirement ... and History in 12th grade was world History.. sorry, I forgot to mention, there was one line mentions of Jinnah, Gandhi and Nehru in each of those three books... Now as far as I know, the children in America learn about Gandhi in their `World religions and cultures` in the 6th grade...
Bewaqoof admi, I dont know what to say to you anymore... you are either a total idiot, or you are just wasting my time on purpose...
Is Gandhi taught in India in every single grade eh? Now howz that for brainwashing?
Anywayz the books we read were either American or British books for kids our ages studying here in the US.... I dont know what you mean by `pakistani american` books... First grow up and gets your facts straight you idiot.
You idiot....why do I even bother with you.
In 5th grade I learnt subcontinental History ... that was the only time I read about Jinnah in school till my A Level World History class once again an western book with one or two sentences about partition, In 6th and 7th grades I learnt world History... In 8th Grade we learnt about the French revolution and the Industrial revolution followed by some introduction into Napoleonic wars...
Then I took History in 10th grade and it was Modern European History 1 which also filled my O level requirement ... and History in 12th grade was world History.. sorry, I forgot to mention, there was one line mentions of Jinnah, Gandhi and Nehru in each of those three books... Now as far as I know, the children in America learn about Gandhi in their `World religions and cultures` in the 6th grade...
Bewaqoof admi, I dont know what to say to you anymore... you are either a total idiot, or you are just wasting my time on purpose...
Is Gandhi taught in India in every single grade eh? Now howz that for brainwashing?
Anywayz the books we read were either American or British books for kids our ages studying here in the US.... I dont know what you mean by `pakistani american` books... First grow up and gets your facts straight you idiot.
#156 Posted by Zahra on October 28, 2001 10:44:17 pm
I came across another perspective today and thought of posting the whole article here. There are a couple of pictures in the paper, accompanying the article and the readers can check them out on the following link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/28/international/asia/28SHRI.html
Seeking Miracles in a Place of Cruelty and Beauty
By RICK BRAGG
(NYT)
Before praying for miracles at a shrine in Gujrat, Pakistan, visitors give alms to the gatekeeper, always one of the revered ``small-headed ones.``
GUJRAT, Pakistan, Oct. 25 — Surrounded by caged birds and blessings, touched in reverence by throngs of people who believe that she is touched by God, the young woman with the startling deformity sat at the door of a place of miracles and pawed clumsily at the women and babies who bowed for her favor. The gatekeeper of a shrine to health and fertility, she has a shrunken head that is too small for her body, her words are nonsense and screams, and even her face, with its pointed forehead and wide, round jaws, is in the shape of a tear.
The worshipers say she is beautiful. One by one they paused in front of her before slipping off their sandals and passing into the Sufi shrine of Shah Daula, a procession of the afflicted who dream to walk again, rich men who humble themselves on their knees for a promise of heaven, mothers with the slack bodies of sick babies in their arms.
But most of the people who pass through the shrine, the smell of crushed rose petals thick in the air, are young women who have not been able to have children. They believe — as women here have for 300 years — that praying at the shrine and being touched by the disfigured young woman will bring them a baby.
``I don`t have a child — but I almost did,`` said Riffaat Parveen, who lost a baby in a miscarriage. So she came to pray for her miracle, to give alms to the gatekeeper. The saint entombed inside, a beloved Sufi Muslim mystic, was a kind man who surrounded himself with children born with this defect.
The small-headed ones became known as chuhas — ``rat children`` — and generations of them have been abandoned here by parents to take their place in the legend. It is as much of the history as Ms. Parveen cares to know.
There is more, and it is the difference between heaven and hell. Generations of chuhas have wandered the streets of this city of about 400,000 people with begging bowls in their hands, only to turn the money over to the leaders of the beggar syndicates that trained them, like animals, to do this one trick.
And there is an even darker side. Some say criminals have over years created their own chuhas by kidnapping healthy babies and using iron bands or masks to restrict the growth of the skull, causing retardation and a sloped forehead. People here believe that it is the worst kind of luck to ignore them, so they fill their bowls with copper and silver and paper money.
There are hundreds of the chuhas in Gujrat, too many, government officials say, to be the product of so similar a birth defect. But almost all the chuhas are grown now, not children, legacies to cruelty.
In the last 15 years or so, the practice of reshaping a child`s skull — so evil that many people choose to call it rumor — has been snuffed out, said Mian Ubaidullah, a Pakistani historian who studies the chuhas.
But the stories of abuse are not so hard to believe in a country in which children of the poorest classes are sold or kidnapped by beggar chiefs, who have been known to cut off a hand or an arm or clip a child`s Achilles` tendon, to make more compelling beggars.
Trade union leaders, experts on child abuse and the minister of religious affairs all say the nightmare legend of the altered children is true, but others say it is just a story to get unruly children to behave.
Raja Muhammad Zafrul Haq, a former senator and ambassador and an expert on the religious practices of his country, said the exploitation of the children had been curtailed by the police. Better medical care for mothers has reduced the numbers of chuhas. But their legend is old and etched in the country`s psyche. People believe in them.
``In return for being able to have children, they will even offer their first-born to the shrine,`` he said. But there is no magic in a healthy, perfect child.
In Gujrat, less than two hours from Islamabad, the capital, the alms are offered reverently, enthusiastically, at the shrine for Shah Daula. Here a chuha only has to sit in the shade to be showered with love and money.
The young woman at the door to the shrine today is here most days, and her name depends on who is asked. Another chuha, almost identical to the first, sits in a jewelry stall a few paces away. She screams what seems to be ``Papa`` over and over. A third, a baby, stares from the folds of a blanket.
The baby`s father, Muhammad Hanif, does not feel blessed. He is trapped between science and religion, a believer in both. He knows that his son is not right, that doctors have said there is little they can do. So he came here with the child.
``Now we seek God`s forgiveness for the sins that have caused this,`` Mr. Hanif said. He stares at the shrine`s gatekeeper, who is now jerking her body rapidly, violently to- and-fro. It takes a moment or two to realize that she is bowing to the faithful. Mr. Hanif looks desperate, hopeless, and carries his baby inside the shrine.
A few feet away, a 9-year-old boy, brain-damaged since a fall four years ago, reclines unblinking in a modern wheelchair. His family, who are Pakistani, live in London. They brought the boy, Rizwah Sheik, from London to receive a blessing, said Muhammad Saqib, the boy`s uncle, who runs an Internet service.
``We believe,`` he said.
This is Islam, but it is not the kind practiced by hard-line, politically minded Muslims of the Taliban, who have banned music, and have hidden their women in head-to-toe burkas that resemble living shrouds, and have made religion a dull drumbeat for war.
``A lot of people hide their worldly ambitions in the cloak of religion,`` said Maulvi Muhammad Mubarake, who heads the mosque adjacent to the shrine. ``I have never prayed and wanted to fight.``
Inside this courtyard, Islam is rich and wild and loud and imperfect, a religion in which people pray not for victory over the infidels but for a new baby, for blood to flow through a withered leg, for hands locked by arthritis pain to open like flowers. They come from a nearby village, or across oceans of time.
Here, and in the shrine beyond, beauty and cruelty mingle like milk and tea.
The faithful, hundreds today, bring offerings of more than money here. Two gamecocks, one black and glistening orange, one white, are fighting to the death in a steel cage. Monkeys scream inside a mesh prison, and peacocks wander in and out of the crowd. There are caged doves, and sacks of freshly killed goats — food that will be cooked to feed the chuhas and others who serve here.
One man sings a poem, for two hours. Another squats on the ground to play his bata, an organlike instrument. The chuha twirls in her chair.
Vendors sell tiny tin cutouts in the shape of whole bodies, of feet, hands and hearts. The faithful carry them into the temple to place, along with money, in a collection box. A man with a limp clutches a cutout shaped like a foot.
Inside the shrine, with its walls of glittering, multicolored glass, the grave of Shah Daula rests under a velvet covering.
The men and women, separated by a green curtain, kneel and kiss the grave.
Two gnarled hands appear on either side of the saint`s headstone when an old woman hugs it from the other side.
Rose petals coat the floor. An old man shouts to keep the people moving so others can feel the love of the saint. Ms. Parveen kneels to feel the cloth covering of the grave. ``In my village, three or four women who were barren have had babies after coming to the shrine,`` she said. It has been more than two years since her miscarriage, and she has been unable to conceive. ``I want a baby,`` she said.
As she leaves, the chuha swats at her head, a sad and violent parody of the laying-on of hands.
Inside the shrine, Muhammad Aslam, a prosperous toymaker, sweeps the floor as penance for his good fortune. ``I prove my devotion,`` he said, but it is not so hard, sweeping up rose petals.
These people are not the descendants of warriors, like the Pashtuns who have sided so strongly with the Taliban. In the early 1700`s, when the last of the great Moguls died, his princes fought wars over what is now India and Pakistan, and many pacifists and religious leaders fled to this region. Even in a time when radical Islam is on the rise, their religion has remained softer, more mystical. They are less serious about life.
In neighboring Kharian, people brag that at least half the Pakistani cabdrivers in New York come from their city, but complain that the influx of dollars that have been sent home has driven property values much too high. In nearby Lala Musa — it translates as Big Brother Moses — some of the finest forgers on earth ply their trade. They can duplicate anything from a Rolex to a visa stamp.
But Gujrat is famous only for its shrine, and its chuhas. Once, there were thousands of them, the people here said, but no one knows how many are left. They do not live long, the people said. There are no old chuhas. The blessing they are said to have from God does not protect them from falling down, or stepping in front of cars.
Mr. Hanif, the father of a child who may have what he calls ``the small head,`` prays that God will fix his child, and take the blessing away.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/28/international/asia/28SHRI.html
Seeking Miracles in a Place of Cruelty and Beauty
By RICK BRAGG
(NYT)
Before praying for miracles at a shrine in Gujrat, Pakistan, visitors give alms to the gatekeeper, always one of the revered ``small-headed ones.``
GUJRAT, Pakistan, Oct. 25 — Surrounded by caged birds and blessings, touched in reverence by throngs of people who believe that she is touched by God, the young woman with the startling deformity sat at the door of a place of miracles and pawed clumsily at the women and babies who bowed for her favor. The gatekeeper of a shrine to health and fertility, she has a shrunken head that is too small for her body, her words are nonsense and screams, and even her face, with its pointed forehead and wide, round jaws, is in the shape of a tear.
The worshipers say she is beautiful. One by one they paused in front of her before slipping off their sandals and passing into the Sufi shrine of Shah Daula, a procession of the afflicted who dream to walk again, rich men who humble themselves on their knees for a promise of heaven, mothers with the slack bodies of sick babies in their arms.
But most of the people who pass through the shrine, the smell of crushed rose petals thick in the air, are young women who have not been able to have children. They believe — as women here have for 300 years — that praying at the shrine and being touched by the disfigured young woman will bring them a baby.
``I don`t have a child — but I almost did,`` said Riffaat Parveen, who lost a baby in a miscarriage. So she came to pray for her miracle, to give alms to the gatekeeper. The saint entombed inside, a beloved Sufi Muslim mystic, was a kind man who surrounded himself with children born with this defect.
The small-headed ones became known as chuhas — ``rat children`` — and generations of them have been abandoned here by parents to take their place in the legend. It is as much of the history as Ms. Parveen cares to know.
There is more, and it is the difference between heaven and hell. Generations of chuhas have wandered the streets of this city of about 400,000 people with begging bowls in their hands, only to turn the money over to the leaders of the beggar syndicates that trained them, like animals, to do this one trick.
And there is an even darker side. Some say criminals have over years created their own chuhas by kidnapping healthy babies and using iron bands or masks to restrict the growth of the skull, causing retardation and a sloped forehead. People here believe that it is the worst kind of luck to ignore them, so they fill their bowls with copper and silver and paper money.
There are hundreds of the chuhas in Gujrat, too many, government officials say, to be the product of so similar a birth defect. But almost all the chuhas are grown now, not children, legacies to cruelty.
In the last 15 years or so, the practice of reshaping a child`s skull — so evil that many people choose to call it rumor — has been snuffed out, said Mian Ubaidullah, a Pakistani historian who studies the chuhas.
But the stories of abuse are not so hard to believe in a country in which children of the poorest classes are sold or kidnapped by beggar chiefs, who have been known to cut off a hand or an arm or clip a child`s Achilles` tendon, to make more compelling beggars.
Trade union leaders, experts on child abuse and the minister of religious affairs all say the nightmare legend of the altered children is true, but others say it is just a story to get unruly children to behave.
Raja Muhammad Zafrul Haq, a former senator and ambassador and an expert on the religious practices of his country, said the exploitation of the children had been curtailed by the police. Better medical care for mothers has reduced the numbers of chuhas. But their legend is old and etched in the country`s psyche. People believe in them.
``In return for being able to have children, they will even offer their first-born to the shrine,`` he said. But there is no magic in a healthy, perfect child.
In Gujrat, less than two hours from Islamabad, the capital, the alms are offered reverently, enthusiastically, at the shrine for Shah Daula. Here a chuha only has to sit in the shade to be showered with love and money.
The young woman at the door to the shrine today is here most days, and her name depends on who is asked. Another chuha, almost identical to the first, sits in a jewelry stall a few paces away. She screams what seems to be ``Papa`` over and over. A third, a baby, stares from the folds of a blanket.
The baby`s father, Muhammad Hanif, does not feel blessed. He is trapped between science and religion, a believer in both. He knows that his son is not right, that doctors have said there is little they can do. So he came here with the child.
``Now we seek God`s forgiveness for the sins that have caused this,`` Mr. Hanif said. He stares at the shrine`s gatekeeper, who is now jerking her body rapidly, violently to- and-fro. It takes a moment or two to realize that she is bowing to the faithful. Mr. Hanif looks desperate, hopeless, and carries his baby inside the shrine.
A few feet away, a 9-year-old boy, brain-damaged since a fall four years ago, reclines unblinking in a modern wheelchair. His family, who are Pakistani, live in London. They brought the boy, Rizwah Sheik, from London to receive a blessing, said Muhammad Saqib, the boy`s uncle, who runs an Internet service.
``We believe,`` he said.
This is Islam, but it is not the kind practiced by hard-line, politically minded Muslims of the Taliban, who have banned music, and have hidden their women in head-to-toe burkas that resemble living shrouds, and have made religion a dull drumbeat for war.
``A lot of people hide their worldly ambitions in the cloak of religion,`` said Maulvi Muhammad Mubarake, who heads the mosque adjacent to the shrine. ``I have never prayed and wanted to fight.``
Inside this courtyard, Islam is rich and wild and loud and imperfect, a religion in which people pray not for victory over the infidels but for a new baby, for blood to flow through a withered leg, for hands locked by arthritis pain to open like flowers. They come from a nearby village, or across oceans of time.
Here, and in the shrine beyond, beauty and cruelty mingle like milk and tea.
The faithful, hundreds today, bring offerings of more than money here. Two gamecocks, one black and glistening orange, one white, are fighting to the death in a steel cage. Monkeys scream inside a mesh prison, and peacocks wander in and out of the crowd. There are caged doves, and sacks of freshly killed goats — food that will be cooked to feed the chuhas and others who serve here.
One man sings a poem, for two hours. Another squats on the ground to play his bata, an organlike instrument. The chuha twirls in her chair.
Vendors sell tiny tin cutouts in the shape of whole bodies, of feet, hands and hearts. The faithful carry them into the temple to place, along with money, in a collection box. A man with a limp clutches a cutout shaped like a foot.
Inside the shrine, with its walls of glittering, multicolored glass, the grave of Shah Daula rests under a velvet covering.
The men and women, separated by a green curtain, kneel and kiss the grave.
Two gnarled hands appear on either side of the saint`s headstone when an old woman hugs it from the other side.
Rose petals coat the floor. An old man shouts to keep the people moving so others can feel the love of the saint. Ms. Parveen kneels to feel the cloth covering of the grave. ``In my village, three or four women who were barren have had babies after coming to the shrine,`` she said. It has been more than two years since her miscarriage, and she has been unable to conceive. ``I want a baby,`` she said.
As she leaves, the chuha swats at her head, a sad and violent parody of the laying-on of hands.
Inside the shrine, Muhammad Aslam, a prosperous toymaker, sweeps the floor as penance for his good fortune. ``I prove my devotion,`` he said, but it is not so hard, sweeping up rose petals.
These people are not the descendants of warriors, like the Pashtuns who have sided so strongly with the Taliban. In the early 1700`s, when the last of the great Moguls died, his princes fought wars over what is now India and Pakistan, and many pacifists and religious leaders fled to this region. Even in a time when radical Islam is on the rise, their religion has remained softer, more mystical. They are less serious about life.
In neighboring Kharian, people brag that at least half the Pakistani cabdrivers in New York come from their city, but complain that the influx of dollars that have been sent home has driven property values much too high. In nearby Lala Musa — it translates as Big Brother Moses — some of the finest forgers on earth ply their trade. They can duplicate anything from a Rolex to a visa stamp.
But Gujrat is famous only for its shrine, and its chuhas. Once, there were thousands of them, the people here said, but no one knows how many are left. They do not live long, the people said. There are no old chuhas. The blessing they are said to have from God does not protect them from falling down, or stepping in front of cars.
Mr. Hanif, the father of a child who may have what he calls ``the small head,`` prays that God will fix his child, and take the blessing away.
#155 Posted by tahmed321 on October 28, 2001 8:19:27 pm
ylh #134 See, when you get mad you start defining your terms. Now you have Socrates doing a jig in his grave (no offense intended here, sir).
To talk substance, I have problem with your definition of Kemalism or Ataturkism or whatever - I prefer to call it Yasserism (just kidding, no offense): ``someone who believes in an individualistic destiny for his or her nation``
Define nation for me, if you please. Seriously. And explain why it has any relevance in this age of globalization. Thank you.
To talk substance, I have problem with your definition of Kemalism or Ataturkism or whatever - I prefer to call it Yasserism (just kidding, no offense): ``someone who believes in an individualistic destiny for his or her nation``
Define nation for me, if you please. Seriously. And explain why it has any relevance in this age of globalization. Thank you.
#153 Posted by Aisha_Sarwari on October 28, 2001 8:19:27 pm
rsaxena,
whatever bones you have to pick with ylh, is your business, but keep me out of your disgusting scenarios. I dont wish to interact with a loser like yourself, so please dont bother me. As for your buddy, let me assure you that there are many losers from India here in San Jose living off of welfare especially after 9/11. So I am sure he wont die.
Aisha
whatever bones you have to pick with ylh, is your business, but keep me out of your disgusting scenarios. I dont wish to interact with a loser like yourself, so please dont bother me. As for your buddy, let me assure you that there are many losers from India here in San Jose living off of welfare especially after 9/11. So I am sure he wont die.
Aisha
#152 Posted by ylh on October 28, 2001 8:19:27 pm
Rsaxena`s response was cheap as usual. Now that he has no proper facts or arguments in his arsenal he has taken to hiding behind personal attacks and pathetic attempts at cracking rather unfunny jokes.
saxena choot, yeh Bhartiya Nazi tumhara to bara qareebi ho gaa? He discusses his travel plans with you doesnt he? He definitely belongs to the same kind of scum that you do ...
Anywaysssss coming back to sachai.... whether or not Gandhi is an inspiration to rev King, or rev Jesse Jackson, it is none of my concern... He is a religious spiritualist mumbo jumbo expert... and I dont like him... Dont I have the right not to like Gandhi? Grow up Saxena....
Unlike Gandhi, Jinnah doesnt need the patronization and endorsement of anyone though he has plenty .... Men like Jinnah, Ataturk etc live on with concrete achievements... they have left behind two vibrant nations, who though having seen their ups and downs, are coherent nations and will exist till eternity.
Scout:
I am not aware how Jinnah came up... Hamidm merely made a comment about the backwardness and symbolism of that walking theatre Gandhi... and I just nodded in agreement. I am sorry for boring you.
saxena choot, yeh Bhartiya Nazi tumhara to bara qareebi ho gaa? He discusses his travel plans with you doesnt he? He definitely belongs to the same kind of scum that you do ...
Anywaysssss coming back to sachai.... whether or not Gandhi is an inspiration to rev King, or rev Jesse Jackson, it is none of my concern... He is a religious spiritualist mumbo jumbo expert... and I dont like him... Dont I have the right not to like Gandhi? Grow up Saxena....
Unlike Gandhi, Jinnah doesnt need the patronization and endorsement of anyone though he has plenty .... Men like Jinnah, Ataturk etc live on with concrete achievements... they have left behind two vibrant nations, who though having seen their ups and downs, are coherent nations and will exist till eternity.
Scout:
I am not aware how Jinnah came up... Hamidm merely made a comment about the backwardness and symbolism of that walking theatre Gandhi... and I just nodded in agreement. I am sorry for boring you.
#151 Posted by Gowardhan on October 28, 2001 8:19:27 pm
ylh,
I didnt make up facts. I relied on what you said -
ylh- only time you read about gandhi was in 5th grade book.
anny-read only two lines about Gandhi in some 8th grade book.
Either you forgotten the history you read or your history books did not mention Gandhi much. Imagine what history you have been taught in Pakistani *American * books. Imagine also what *history * they are teaching in Pakistani schools run by Pakistanis. 95% or more must be the latter.
You mention some other book but not your school history books. What do Pakistani history school books teach about 1971 loss of half your country? Is this not the most important single event in Pakistans whole history after 1947. When the whole world studies departure of British rulers in 1947, whole world makes Gandhi a central person. What did Pakistani history books teach you?
If Indian history books are wrong point out those facts. Dont make brainwashed statements.
Anny, sorry I dont want you sad. As I told ylh, if I have wrong facts about what Pakistan`s history teaches about loss of half of Pakistan in 1971 or about Gandhi, freely tell me they are wrong. I did not make up those facts. I relied on you. If my facts are right, please think what type of history you have been taught. Winning argument is important only if we finally know facts. If my facts are wrong tell me. If not please think why Pakistani history does not teach facts. That is all.
I didnt make up facts. I relied on what you said -
ylh- only time you read about gandhi was in 5th grade book.
anny-read only two lines about Gandhi in some 8th grade book.
Either you forgotten the history you read or your history books did not mention Gandhi much. Imagine what history you have been taught in Pakistani *American * books. Imagine also what *history * they are teaching in Pakistani schools run by Pakistanis. 95% or more must be the latter.
You mention some other book but not your school history books. What do Pakistani history school books teach about 1971 loss of half your country? Is this not the most important single event in Pakistans whole history after 1947. When the whole world studies departure of British rulers in 1947, whole world makes Gandhi a central person. What did Pakistani history books teach you?
If Indian history books are wrong point out those facts. Dont make brainwashed statements.
Anny, sorry I dont want you sad. As I told ylh, if I have wrong facts about what Pakistan`s history teaches about loss of half of Pakistan in 1971 or about Gandhi, freely tell me they are wrong. I did not make up those facts. I relied on you. If my facts are right, please think what type of history you have been taught. Winning argument is important only if we finally know facts. If my facts are wrong tell me. If not please think why Pakistani history does not teach facts. That is all.
#150 Posted by ylh on October 28, 2001 8:19:27 pm
Rsaxena`s response was cheap as usual.
Yes why did Bhartiya Musalman go to San Jose... he went there to plead with Aisha`s family to give her hand in marriage to him. Loser kahin kaaa, now he wasted his `religious cleric` father`s hard earned money to go there for nothing. His cousin ofcourse is the notorious Ayoob ali Khan from Hyderabad India, under questioning for attempted terrorist attack on September 11th.
Anywaysssss.... whether or not Gandhi is an inspiration to rev King, or rev Jesse Jackson, it is none of my concern... He is a religious spiritualist mumbo jumbo expert... and I dont like him... Dont I have the right not to like him?
Yes why did Bhartiya Musalman go to San Jose... he went there to plead with Aisha`s family to give her hand in marriage to him. Loser kahin kaaa, now he wasted his `religious cleric` father`s hard earned money to go there for nothing. His cousin ofcourse is the notorious Ayoob ali Khan from Hyderabad India, under questioning for attempted terrorist attack on September 11th.
Anywaysssss.... whether or not Gandhi is an inspiration to rev King, or rev Jesse Jackson, it is none of my concern... He is a religious spiritualist mumbo jumbo expert... and I dont like him... Dont I have the right not to like him?
#149 Posted by ZafarA on October 28, 2001 8:19:27 pm
Hey Stuka - if you have a moment (and inclination) email me on zaltalib@dlwc.nsw.gov.au re: your travel plans. Zafar
#148 Posted by ram-rahim on October 28, 2001 8:19:27 pm
After reading the article, I realized why this teacher had to go to Pakistan to find a job. I hope our school department does not hire this Simpleton.
#147 Posted by Zahra on October 28, 2001 6:05:35 pm
Binifer Binifer:
Please stick around
:D
Take Care.
PS: I owed you a clarification. Elton John`s verses were not supposed to make you feel sad. They were meant to be cherished for their beautiful lyrics, written by Tim Rice. :)
Please stick around
:D
Take Care.
PS: I owed you a clarification. Elton John`s verses were not supposed to make you feel sad. They were meant to be cherished for their beautiful lyrics, written by Tim Rice. :)
#146 Posted by rsaxena on October 28, 2001 3:58:37 pm
re: binifer
did your hubby-to-be escape at the very last minute? jumped out the window and ran for his life? no? then what are you so angry about, hun?
did your hubby-to-be escape at the very last minute? jumped out the window and ran for his life? no? then what are you so angry about, hun?
#145 Posted by scout on October 28, 2001 3:08:22 pm
suxena and ylh,
please spare us your Gandhi vs. Jinnah mumbo jumbo.
why don`t u guys meet up over coffee (you both know you want to) and talk about it instead of giving other Chowkies headaches.
please spare us your Gandhi vs. Jinnah mumbo jumbo.
why don`t u guys meet up over coffee (you both know you want to) and talk about it instead of giving other Chowkies headaches.
#144 Posted by Binifer on October 28, 2001 3:08:22 pm
saxena
(hun, stop stalking from me board to board if you don`t have any issues to fight about)
now just one second sugarball
u saying youre here with issues?
christ, ure funny
(hun, stop stalking from me board to board if you don`t have any issues to fight about)
now just one second sugarball
u saying youre here with issues?
christ, ure funny
#143 Posted by anNy on October 28, 2001 3:08:22 pm
yasser:
``I used to go to LAS for their carnivals and parties, ... and they had the best damn Halloween Party in Lahore every year!``
yea..they have fun stuff going on at the KAS too sara waqt..im not from there though..and i dont wish to tell mr.gowy or saxena anything..you think your long posts will make a difference yasser? not in a million years love..their hearts and minds seem to be closed
mr.gowy:
angry? no my friend..you just make me very sad.
be good
``I used to go to LAS for their carnivals and parties, ... and they had the best damn Halloween Party in Lahore every year!``
yea..they have fun stuff going on at the KAS too sara waqt..im not from there though..and i dont wish to tell mr.gowy or saxena anything..you think your long posts will make a difference yasser? not in a million years love..their hearts and minds seem to be closed
mr.gowy:
angry? no my friend..you just make me very sad.
be good
#142 Posted by rsaxena on October 28, 2001 2:00:39 pm
Re: ylh
hehe...rant all you want, but the facts won`t change. Gandhi is cited as their inspiration by leaders from Martin Luther King to Nelson Mandela to US Presidents. Jinnah on the other hand is forgotten, if he was ever even known to much of the world to begin with...and understandably so since his legacy is a shameless country which has yet to learn about democracy, elections, and secularism (the ``Islamic`` Republic of Pakistan). Mocking what Gandhi wore or spun will not change that sad reality for you...
btw, bharatiya_musalman is in San Jose right now. I wonder what he`s doing there.
hehe...rant all you want, but the facts won`t change. Gandhi is cited as their inspiration by leaders from Martin Luther King to Nelson Mandela to US Presidents. Jinnah on the other hand is forgotten, if he was ever even known to much of the world to begin with...and understandably so since his legacy is a shameless country which has yet to learn about democracy, elections, and secularism (the ``Islamic`` Republic of Pakistan). Mocking what Gandhi wore or spun will not change that sad reality for you...
btw, bharatiya_musalman is in San Jose right now. I wonder what he`s doing there.
#141 Posted by ylh on October 28, 2001 2:00:39 pm
I should really learn to ignore people like Gowardhan and their ignorant assertions about Pakistani history.
This is something common with Indians. Even an enlightened educated Indian like my friend Prem made a comment like this. When we were in Pakistan, I showed him my book for the A Level examination in `20th century History` printed by Longman. Eventhough it had barely a small paragraph about Pakistan and Jinnah with minimal praise, Prem declared that it was Pakistani propaganda... eventhough the book was published thousands of miles away and written by a foreign author.
Now from the stuff we read of Gowardhan, one can safely say that Prem is atleast 5000 times more educated than Gowardhan ! I am willing to bet my life on it!
This is something common with Indians. Even an enlightened educated Indian like my friend Prem made a comment like this. When we were in Pakistan, I showed him my book for the A Level examination in `20th century History` printed by Longman. Eventhough it had barely a small paragraph about Pakistan and Jinnah with minimal praise, Prem declared that it was Pakistani propaganda... eventhough the book was published thousands of miles away and written by a foreign author.
Now from the stuff we read of Gowardhan, one can safely say that Prem is atleast 5000 times more educated than Gowardhan ! I am willing to bet my life on it!
#140 Posted by ylh on October 28, 2001 2:00:39 pm
Just to let everyone know how this current `Gandhi` conversation started... it started with an absolute gem of a comment by Hamidm in his post 31:
`the silliest thing mankind has withnessed is a half naked faqir running around making salt and spinning cotton on an antedeluvian wheel`
How eloquently written, absolutely hilarious.
`the silliest thing mankind has withnessed is a half naked faqir running around making salt and spinning cotton on an antedeluvian wheel`
How eloquently written, absolutely hilarious.
#139 Posted by rsaxena on October 28, 2001 2:00:39 pm
Re: binifer
``lolol- hun, you need HELP``
hun, stop stalking from me board to board if you don`t have any issues to fight about
``lolol- hun, you need HELP``
hun, stop stalking from me board to board if you don`t have any issues to fight about
#138 Posted by ylh on October 28, 2001 2:00:39 pm
Mahesh G
`Feudal system has been made illegal in India`
Well so has `sati` right? and `caste system`? and then again India is supposed to be secular state with a Hindu Fundamentalist Party in coalition with Hindu terrorist parties....
Grow up... and give up hypocrisy!
`Feudal system has been made illegal in India`
Well so has `sati` right? and `caste system`? and then again India is supposed to be secular state with a Hindu Fundamentalist Party in coalition with Hindu terrorist parties....
Grow up... and give up hypocrisy!
#137 Posted by ylh on October 28, 2001 2:00:39 pm
By the way, if we are down with judging history by what Mandella said, then his insistence on visiting Jinnah`s mausoleum as the first thing in Pakistan in 1995 and then jotting down the following words `Jinnah is an inspiration to me` must account for something... but then again we shouldnt judge by what people say.... we should make up our minds according to the facts right?
Gowardhan allow me to explain to you the chowk designated Indian : `Anny went to Karachi American School` .... her books were `American`.
No point in dragging Pakistani books into this you idiot... unlike Indian books who are gospels of hate, Pakistani books praise Gandhi as an old man of nonviolence... unfortunately!
Gowardhan allow me to explain to you the chowk designated Indian : `Anny went to Karachi American School` .... her books were `American`.
No point in dragging Pakistani books into this you idiot... unlike Indian books who are gospels of hate, Pakistani books praise Gandhi as an old man of nonviolence... unfortunately!
#136 Posted by ylh on October 28, 2001 2:00:39 pm
Maybe Anny, you will inform this idiot gowardhan that we went to American schools not Pakistani schools....
#135 Posted by ylh on October 28, 2001 2:00:39 pm
tahmed,
What the hell is your problem? Why do you get bogged down in `terms` and then analyze them and pick hair out of them?
Kemalism is beyond `Mustafa Kemal` worship as your arrogance and belief in your own intellectual superiority might have you believe. I think the term for that is `Ataturkism`, a thing that Turks are becoming increasingly apt at doing. Kemalism is a term coined, undoubtedly after Mustafa Kemal, about the Modernist Response to the dilemmas in a Muslim society and it is a term widely used in the West and throughout the Muslim world. Fazlurrahman the US based sociologist in his book uses the term `Aligarh Westernism` for the same phenomenon.
I would rather use Kemalism, because Kemalism sounds better, and `westernism` is misleading because it doesnot fully appreciate the underlying content of `Modernization` of Muslim society.
But how about I substitute it with `Yasserism` but then Arafat will make a claim to it right? YLHism perhaps? Modernism doesnot cut it either because people consider Mohd Abduh and Syed Qutb as Modernists, some would even call Maudoodi a modernist...
So who is a Kemalist? Does he have to worship Kemal Ataturk?
A Kemalist is a Globalist Muslim (by origin, by faith, or by culture), who believes that church and state should be separate, that Religion has a moral role to play in the society but nothing more, who believes in materialism, and modernism as necessities to compete in the Modern world and someone who believes in an individualistic destiny for his or her nation. He/she may or maynot like Ataturk... it depends on their reading of history.
Ataturkism, what you in your arrogant and demeaning manner attribute to me, is simply Kemal Ataturk worship... a phenomenon we find common in Modern Turkey. Ataturkism includes such things as suppression of religion, perpetuation of laicism as a religion, ... in essence, the difference between `Kemalism` and `Ataturkism` is same as the difference between lets say `Islam` and `Mohammadenism` or `Hagarism`, Islam being the set of morals, Mohammadenism being the set of rituals that Mohammed as an Arab performed but which had nothing to do with Islam... an example of a `Mohammadenist` would be someone who eats with his hands because it is the `sunnah` of the prophet...
In essence both `Islam` and `Kemalism` are a set of morals, and a political ideology respectively. On the other Mohammadenism, and Ataturkism yearn to take the world to 7th century and the 1920s respectively. I hope you make the note and retract your rather offensive not to mention untrue assertions atonce!
-YLH
What the hell is your problem? Why do you get bogged down in `terms` and then analyze them and pick hair out of them?
Kemalism is beyond `Mustafa Kemal` worship as your arrogance and belief in your own intellectual superiority might have you believe. I think the term for that is `Ataturkism`, a thing that Turks are becoming increasingly apt at doing. Kemalism is a term coined, undoubtedly after Mustafa Kemal, about the Modernist Response to the dilemmas in a Muslim society and it is a term widely used in the West and throughout the Muslim world. Fazlurrahman the US based sociologist in his book uses the term `Aligarh Westernism` for the same phenomenon.
I would rather use Kemalism, because Kemalism sounds better, and `westernism` is misleading because it doesnot fully appreciate the underlying content of `Modernization` of Muslim society.
But how about I substitute it with `Yasserism` but then Arafat will make a claim to it right? YLHism perhaps? Modernism doesnot cut it either because people consider Mohd Abduh and Syed Qutb as Modernists, some would even call Maudoodi a modernist...
So who is a Kemalist? Does he have to worship Kemal Ataturk?
A Kemalist is a Globalist Muslim (by origin, by faith, or by culture), who believes that church and state should be separate, that Religion has a moral role to play in the society but nothing more, who believes in materialism, and modernism as necessities to compete in the Modern world and someone who believes in an individualistic destiny for his or her nation. He/she may or maynot like Ataturk... it depends on their reading of history.
Ataturkism, what you in your arrogant and demeaning manner attribute to me, is simply Kemal Ataturk worship... a phenomenon we find common in Modern Turkey. Ataturkism includes such things as suppression of religion, perpetuation of laicism as a religion, ... in essence, the difference between `Kemalism` and `Ataturkism` is same as the difference between lets say `Islam` and `Mohammadenism` or `Hagarism`, Islam being the set of morals, Mohammadenism being the set of rituals that Mohammed as an Arab performed but which had nothing to do with Islam... an example of a `Mohammadenist` would be someone who eats with his hands because it is the `sunnah` of the prophet...
In essence both `Islam` and `Kemalism` are a set of morals, and a political ideology respectively. On the other Mohammadenism, and Ataturkism yearn to take the world to 7th century and the 1920s respectively. I hope you make the note and retract your rather offensive not to mention untrue assertions atonce!
-YLH
#134 Posted by Kiran- on October 28, 2001 12:49:38 pm
Shirin #87:
Wowie; so you do know how to get angry! ``shirin in action...aaj hi dekhye message #87 mein.`` :D
This was a good ``other side of the picture.`` You are also right, as is Mr. Burns.
love
Kiran
Wowie; so you do know how to get angry! ``shirin in action...aaj hi dekhye message #87 mein.`` :D
This was a good ``other side of the picture.`` You are also right, as is Mr. Burns.
love
Kiran
#133 Posted by MaheshG on October 28, 2001 12:49:38 pm
Farzana #116,
You seem to make no distinction between somebody who is trying to change and somebody who has no desire to change.
Feudalism has been made illegal in India. Not so in Pakistan.
Don`t you agree the first step in abolishing anything is to enact a law against it.
The next step is the implementation of it. That`s where we are lacking ( Not so entirely).
Now how can you club a country which has taken the first step with a country that has no desire to even take that step.
And that is my objection to your posts.
#132 Posted by ylh on October 28, 2001 12:49:38 pm
Anny,
I was in the school Mr Burns taught in(International school of Choueifat). The only time I read about Gandhi was in 5th grade. It was a book called `first steps in our history` by S K Haye and was published by `Kakul Military accademy`... The purpose of the book was teach `young Pakistani girls and boys` about their heroes. The second last chapter was about Gandhi `the Man of Non violence` , three pages of the same old same old Gandhi the saint blah blah... the final chapter ofcourse was Quaid e Azam `who got us Pakistan`.
I used to go to LAS for their carnivals and parties, ... and they had the best damn Halloween Party in Lahore every year! Were you in KAS?
-YLH
I was in the school Mr Burns taught in(International school of Choueifat). The only time I read about Gandhi was in 5th grade. It was a book called `first steps in our history` by S K Haye and was published by `Kakul Military accademy`... The purpose of the book was teach `young Pakistani girls and boys` about their heroes. The second last chapter was about Gandhi `the Man of Non violence` , three pages of the same old same old Gandhi the saint blah blah... the final chapter ofcourse was Quaid e Azam `who got us Pakistan`.
I used to go to LAS for their carnivals and parties, ... and they had the best damn Halloween Party in Lahore every year! Were you in KAS?
-YLH
#131 Posted by ylh on October 28, 2001 12:49:38 pm
BTW Rsaxena, go choose your own word... `delusions` is what I use for you!
#130 Posted by ylh on October 28, 2001 12:49:38 pm
Double Standards:
The media portrayal is indeed sad. 5000 Tribesmen of the `Pushtun` ethnicity cross over to fight alongside their people, and they are all of a sudden Pakistanis.. changing reality of the 21st century eh?
On the other hand when Badshah Khan and his treacherous family jumped in on the Indian Bandwagon and tried to secede from Pakistan 1947 onwards, Pushtuns to Indians were not Pakistanis.
Which way is it Rsaxena? Hypocrisy, double standards? Golden virtues of India?
The media portrayal is indeed sad. 5000 Tribesmen of the `Pushtun` ethnicity cross over to fight alongside their people, and they are all of a sudden Pakistanis.. changing reality of the 21st century eh?
On the other hand when Badshah Khan and his treacherous family jumped in on the Indian Bandwagon and tried to secede from Pakistan 1947 onwards, Pushtuns to Indians were not Pakistanis.
Which way is it Rsaxena? Hypocrisy, double standards? Golden virtues of India?
#129 Posted by ylh on October 28, 2001 12:49:38 pm
In response to Rsaxena the delusional child:
Why cant you live with the fact that I dont like Gandhi? Millions of Indians dont like Gandhi either, why not go convince them first?
Really both Pakistanis and Indians need to come to terms with one fact : We did not drive the British out. Yes we had our freedom struggles but it is not because of Gandhi, Nehru, or even Jinnah, though all staunch anti-colonialists, that we are independent. In fact Gandhi only moved from `self rule` to complete Independence during quit India.
We owe our independence to a growing conscience of a free world, dying imperialism, and increase in education not to mention a world war. Anyone who thinks that a naked fakir who spun cloth drove the British, who had defeated the Nazis, out of India is a fool. I cannot stress enough.
Indeed ours is a myth of Independence really. If the United States wanted, it could occupy Pakistan and India militarily albeit at a great cost. But why isnt United States expanding? Because the age of colonialism is over. Even the greatest power the world has ever known has to go in with permission. So our myth of Independence is sustained only by current level of morality which gives every nation, no matter how weak or how strong, equal chance to live. But Rsaxena, and other delusional people will continue to persist in their notions of Gandhi the one man force of non violence defeating the British with salt marches, dharnas and failed non cooperation movements.
So live in your false notions, I will have no part of it.
Tahmed321
Sir, when I say Kemalist, I mean the ideology. So why use Kemalism instead of secularism, or any other such contemporary words? The answer is simple, first our dear friends the Indians have distorted the meaning of `secularism`. Secondly Kemalism is a breed apart, it is the name of a strategy specific to a Muslim dominated society and hence is more relevant to Muslim people than anyone else.
If there is such a thing as `Musharrafism` it has to be an improved form of `Kemalism` for after all Musharraf is the man of the 21st century as much as Kemal was the man of the 20th century. Musharraf allows for greater press freedoms, and has sensibilities much more advanced than Kemal Ataturk.
-YLH
Why cant you live with the fact that I dont like Gandhi? Millions of Indians dont like Gandhi either, why not go convince them first?
Really both Pakistanis and Indians need to come to terms with one fact : We did not drive the British out. Yes we had our freedom struggles but it is not because of Gandhi, Nehru, or even Jinnah, though all staunch anti-colonialists, that we are independent. In fact Gandhi only moved from `self rule` to complete Independence during quit India.
We owe our independence to a growing conscience of a free world, dying imperialism, and increase in education not to mention a world war. Anyone who thinks that a naked fakir who spun cloth drove the British, who had defeated the Nazis, out of India is a fool. I cannot stress enough.
Indeed ours is a myth of Independence really. If the United States wanted, it could occupy Pakistan and India militarily albeit at a great cost. But why isnt United States expanding? Because the age of colonialism is over. Even the greatest power the world has ever known has to go in with permission. So our myth of Independence is sustained only by current level of morality which gives every nation, no matter how weak or how strong, equal chance to live. But Rsaxena, and other delusional people will continue to persist in their notions of Gandhi the one man force of non violence defeating the British with salt marches, dharnas and failed non cooperation movements.
So live in your false notions, I will have no part of it.
Tahmed321
Sir, when I say Kemalist, I mean the ideology. So why use Kemalism instead of secularism, or any other such contemporary words? The answer is simple, first our dear friends the Indians have distorted the meaning of `secularism`. Secondly Kemalism is a breed apart, it is the name of a strategy specific to a Muslim dominated society and hence is more relevant to Muslim people than anyone else.
If there is such a thing as `Musharrafism` it has to be an improved form of `Kemalism` for after all Musharraf is the man of the 21st century as much as Kemal was the man of the 20th century. Musharraf allows for greater press freedoms, and has sensibilities much more advanced than Kemal Ataturk.
-YLH
#128 Posted by Gowardhan on October 28, 2001 12:49:38 pm
anny,
Two lines about Gandhi? About the man who was a fool in my eyes but has been voted by people like Nelson Mandela one of the three greatest men of the twentieth century? A person who inspired Martin Luthar. What do they teach in Pakistani history books? Is there a chapter on Pakistans loss of more than half Pakistani people in 1971? Is it same reason they teach for 1947, bad hindus evil hindus, bengalis so different from real pure Punjabis, baloochis, pushtoons, mohajirs that Bengalis could not live with them? Another two nation theory, bengalis on one side, Punjabis, Baloochis, Pushtoons, Mohajirs on the other side? Does the most important event in Pakistans life after 1947 also gets only two paragraphs in history books you and ylh read? Please tell me honestly even if you get angry reading what I write.
Two lines about Gandhi? About the man who was a fool in my eyes but has been voted by people like Nelson Mandela one of the three greatest men of the twentieth century? A person who inspired Martin Luthar. What do they teach in Pakistani history books? Is there a chapter on Pakistans loss of more than half Pakistani people in 1971? Is it same reason they teach for 1947, bad hindus evil hindus, bengalis so different from real pure Punjabis, baloochis, pushtoons, mohajirs that Bengalis could not live with them? Another two nation theory, bengalis on one side, Punjabis, Baloochis, Pushtoons, Mohajirs on the other side? Does the most important event in Pakistans life after 1947 also gets only two paragraphs in history books you and ylh read? Please tell me honestly even if you get angry reading what I write.
#127 Posted by Kiran- on October 28, 2001 12:49:38 pm
Shirin #87:
Wowie; so you do know how to get angry! ``shirin in action...aaj hi dekhye message #87 mein.`` :D
This was a good ``other side of the picture.`` You are also right, as is Mr. Burns.
love
Kiran
Wowie; so you do know how to get angry! ``shirin in action...aaj hi dekhye message #87 mein.`` :D
This was a good ``other side of the picture.`` You are also right, as is Mr. Burns.
love
Kiran
#126 Posted by Binifer on October 28, 2001 9:14:50 am
suksena:
(You`d be a free housemaid at some British commander`s home right now if it weren`t for Gandhi`s freedom struggle. He got you freedom...)
lolol- hun, you need HELP
(You`d be a free housemaid at some British commander`s home right now if it weren`t for Gandhi`s freedom struggle. He got you freedom...)
lolol- hun, you need HELP
#125 Posted by tahmed321 on October 28, 2001 4:33:40 am
ylh #112 ``Gandhi was a religious spiritualist`` Hunh? What, what, what?? Never heard this one before. Anyway, I hate non-religious spiritualists myself (I dont know what they are, but gotta keep up with this intellectual discussion, you know).
``I am an avowed Kemalist...``
With Kemal now resting in peace (bar a solitary twist in his grave when you post one on chowk), as a Kemalist you must have nothing to do. No Kemal, no Kemalism. How about becoming a Musharrafist??
``I am an avowed Kemalist...``
With Kemal now resting in peace (bar a solitary twist in his grave when you post one on chowk), as a Kemalist you must have nothing to do. No Kemal, no Kemalism. How about becoming a Musharrafist??
#124 Posted by anNy on October 28, 2001 4:33:40 am
yasser:
``The books that I read in school had nothing against Gandhi.``
against ghandi?? mine didnt have `anything` about the man save 2 lines and that too in grade 8, i think...
u were at LAS? i think hamara syllabus aik hee tha...what books did u do?
``The books that I read in school had nothing against Gandhi.``
against ghandi?? mine didnt have `anything` about the man save 2 lines and that too in grade 8, i think...
u were at LAS? i think hamara syllabus aik hee tha...what books did u do?
#123 Posted by scout on October 28, 2001 4:33:40 am
Farzana #86, ``Regarding women, I know that in our part of the subcontinent rising to any level is slow and painful, as you say, but at what cost are
women in the West “winning”? When I gave the examples of Brockovich, Madonna and Barbie, you mentioned it was by choice that they agreed to be used (I am sure you realise that Barbie has
no choice!). Do you realise that their choice is dictated by western male standards?``
But don`t you realize it`s still THEIR CHOICE? So they decided to play up to western male standards.
I`m sure they`ll get their last laugh, in this world at least.
And these women you mention are the few that have come under media scrutiny. WHat about the immensely successful women we don`t see or read about on TV and magazines? Most of them don`t look like Barbies....many of them are CEO`s, physicians, countless lawyers etc...
``Even the vocal feminist Betty Friedan admitted that she was leading a double life, where she spoke about women’s lib but was being physically and emotionally battered by her husband.``
Fortunately, in the US, spousal abuse can be overcome and most women do find practical support.
Now how many similar desi women would find such support in India or Pakistan. And if they did find it, how much of it could help them break free from their husbands and care for their children properly? Not many.
``I would say the ‘areas’ of exploitation differ and we mistake that for ‘degrees’ of exploitation.``
True, but isn`t exploitation by choice (Madonna, Brockovich) better than exploitation by force?
Can a woman who`s beaten by her husband call the police and get justice as easily in desiland as in the US?
``The Jefferson and the slave girl example happened way back, no doubt, but history is regurgitated all the time to make political and social points.``
With all the news about Indian girls sold as sex slaves to Arab princes, where do you think history is repeating itself?
``You have said in another context, “So the US is the superpower of the world now, and is acting accordingly, right or wrong. It`s the way of the world, of history repeating itself.” Ok, so if you think all colonizers behave the way the US is doing now, at least let that come through. If we cut out the crap of ‘Enduring Freedom’, then maybe it would be easier to deal with American smart bombs.``
I agree with you here. I believe the American media and the government is screwing (pardon my French) with the minds of the American people by turning a war against an already ravaged country into a patriotic freedom struggle. The day the US army brings Bin Laden, ``dead or alive`` from Afghanistan is the day I`ll believe it did it`s duty. And we all know he`s not even there. And we all know most of the hijackers were Saudis, not Afghanis.
`` Regarding lack of American culture, the writer himself said so. I totally believe in individuality being more important than any
culture, but can you tell me in what way that country appreciates all cultures?``
What do you mean? Are you referring to discrimination which happens in every country?
``What cultures thrive in the US? And I too am not
talking about nihari and burgers…``
All cultures have an opportunity to thrive in the US, so far at least. It`s just that some cultures like our extremist Muslims have chosen to isolate themselves from America, while living in America.
It`s a shame.
women in the West “winning”? When I gave the examples of Brockovich, Madonna and Barbie, you mentioned it was by choice that they agreed to be used (I am sure you realise that Barbie has
no choice!). Do you realise that their choice is dictated by western male standards?``
But don`t you realize it`s still THEIR CHOICE? So they decided to play up to western male standards.
I`m sure they`ll get their last laugh, in this world at least.
And these women you mention are the few that have come under media scrutiny. WHat about the immensely successful women we don`t see or read about on TV and magazines? Most of them don`t look like Barbies....many of them are CEO`s, physicians, countless lawyers etc...
``Even the vocal feminist Betty Friedan admitted that she was leading a double life, where she spoke about women’s lib but was being physically and emotionally battered by her husband.``
Fortunately, in the US, spousal abuse can be overcome and most women do find practical support.
Now how many similar desi women would find such support in India or Pakistan. And if they did find it, how much of it could help them break free from their husbands and care for their children properly? Not many.
``I would say the ‘areas’ of exploitation differ and we mistake that for ‘degrees’ of exploitation.``
True, but isn`t exploitation by choice (Madonna, Brockovich) better than exploitation by force?
Can a woman who`s beaten by her husband call the police and get justice as easily in desiland as in the US?
``The Jefferson and the slave girl example happened way back, no doubt, but history is regurgitated all the time to make political and social points.``
With all the news about Indian girls sold as sex slaves to Arab princes, where do you think history is repeating itself?
``You have said in another context, “So the US is the superpower of the world now, and is acting accordingly, right or wrong. It`s the way of the world, of history repeating itself.” Ok, so if you think all colonizers behave the way the US is doing now, at least let that come through. If we cut out the crap of ‘Enduring Freedom’, then maybe it would be easier to deal with American smart bombs.``
I agree with you here. I believe the American media and the government is screwing (pardon my French) with the minds of the American people by turning a war against an already ravaged country into a patriotic freedom struggle. The day the US army brings Bin Laden, ``dead or alive`` from Afghanistan is the day I`ll believe it did it`s duty. And we all know he`s not even there. And we all know most of the hijackers were Saudis, not Afghanis.
`` Regarding lack of American culture, the writer himself said so. I totally believe in individuality being more important than any
culture, but can you tell me in what way that country appreciates all cultures?``
What do you mean? Are you referring to discrimination which happens in every country?
``What cultures thrive in the US? And I too am not
talking about nihari and burgers…``
All cultures have an opportunity to thrive in the US, so far at least. It`s just that some cultures like our extremist Muslims have chosen to isolate themselves from America, while living in America.
It`s a shame.
#122 Posted by scout on October 28, 2001 4:33:40 am
Zafar #64,
When did I diss Janet Reno? I admire strong women and that it is in that very light that I mentioned her.
When did I diss Janet Reno? I admire strong women and that it is in that very light that I mentioned her.
#121 Posted by ShirinAhmed on October 28, 2001 4:33:40 am
Amir #
[[How can i say ,it hurt me more to see you call Terry ,``Darling``]]
ha ha .... for every wife, a husband is a darling, no matter what a fruitcake he might be :) and thanks for missing me .... :)
anNY.# .. LOL ... yes i am a brat .... you got the best of me :)
love,
shirin
[[How can i say ,it hurt me more to see you call Terry ,``Darling``]]
ha ha .... for every wife, a husband is a darling, no matter what a fruitcake he might be :) and thanks for missing me .... :)
anNY.# .. LOL ... yes i am a brat .... you got the best of me :)
love,
shirin
#120 Posted by ylh on October 28, 2001 4:33:40 am
Junoon rocks at the UN:
Reps of the silent Pakistani majority speak out
South Asia`s biggest rock band Junoon is in the US these days. Junoon`s song writer Salman Ahmad will be on CNN`s Q&A on October 28th at 9:30am
and ABC`s Politically Incorrect with Bill Mahr on November 1 . Salman, who is also the spokesperson for the United Nations spoke to BBC world
news yesterday at the UN General Assembly.
play.rbn.com/?wgbh/world/...0252001.rm
Transcript of the report:
Marco Werman: There may have been less publicity, but the setting could hardly have been more high-profile... as musicians from India and Pakistan rocked out a packed United Nations General Assembly.
After a surreal silent performance by Marcel Marceau, the Indian band Euforia took to the stage of the General Assembly for a rousing set. Euforia concluded with a Beatles number in honor of the Nobel peace prizewon by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan and his organization.
But the headliner last night though was the Pakistani rockband Junoon which has in the past five years become the Asian subcontinent`s most
successful pop act.
Salman Ahmad: Junoon`s music takes its message from the Islamic sufi(YLH`s note: Salman and I have exchanged many emails on the topic of sufis and sufism but he is entitled to his views) poets. And I think it`s symbolic that the message of love, harmony, tolerance which these poets wrote back in the 13th century is the most needed message today.
MW: Salman Ahmad is Junoon`s lead guitarist and songwriter. He`s also the United Nation`s goodwill ambassador for Pakistan in the fight against AIDS. Since June, Ahmad has been pushing the UN to hold a peace concert. Now with the events of the past six weeks, he believes it was more necessary than ever. But there`s another issue Junoon feels it has to deal with now, says Salman Ahmad.
Salman: In 53 years of history in Pakistan, not one religious party has ever won an election. Never.
MW: Salman Ahmad and the other three members of the band - two of whom are from the United States -- are critical of the American media for - as
they see it - portraying Pakistan`s Muslims as angry and violently anti-American.
Salman: They`re a small minority out of 140 million people, when 10, 20, 30 thousand people come out on the streets, and they make a lot of noise, it seems like those are the only people who are out there. But the great silent majority can`t
Reps of the silent Pakistani majority speak out
South Asia`s biggest rock band Junoon is in the US these days. Junoon`s song writer Salman Ahmad will be on CNN`s Q&A on October 28th at 9:30am
and ABC`s Politically Incorrect with Bill Mahr on November 1 . Salman, who is also the spokesperson for the United Nations spoke to BBC world
news yesterday at the UN General Assembly.
play.rbn.com/?wgbh/world/...0252001.rm
Transcript of the report:
Marco Werman: There may have been less publicity, but the setting could hardly have been more high-profile... as musicians from India and Pakistan rocked out a packed United Nations General Assembly.
After a surreal silent performance by Marcel Marceau, the Indian band Euforia took to the stage of the General Assembly for a rousing set. Euforia concluded with a Beatles number in honor of the Nobel peace prizewon by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan and his organization.
But the headliner last night though was the Pakistani rockband Junoon which has in the past five years become the Asian subcontinent`s most
successful pop act.
Salman Ahmad: Junoon`s music takes its message from the Islamic sufi(YLH`s note: Salman and I have exchanged many emails on the topic of sufis and sufism but he is entitled to his views) poets. And I think it`s symbolic that the message of love, harmony, tolerance which these poets wrote back in the 13th century is the most needed message today.
MW: Salman Ahmad is Junoon`s lead guitarist and songwriter. He`s also the United Nation`s goodwill ambassador for Pakistan in the fight against AIDS. Since June, Ahmad has been pushing the UN to hold a peace concert. Now with the events of the past six weeks, he believes it was more necessary than ever. But there`s another issue Junoon feels it has to deal with now, says Salman Ahmad.
Salman: In 53 years of history in Pakistan, not one religious party has ever won an election. Never.
MW: Salman Ahmad and the other three members of the band - two of whom are from the United States -- are critical of the American media for - as
they see it - portraying Pakistan`s Muslims as angry and violently anti-American.
Salman: They`re a small minority out of 140 million people, when 10, 20, 30 thousand people come out on the streets, and they make a lot of noise, it seems like those are the only people who are out there. But the great silent majority can`t
#119 Posted by ylh on October 28, 2001 4:33:40 am
And just to back that up for you rsaxena, here is your `secular` country ruled by a fundamentalist party ..
BJP`s true colors
by S UdayKumar
http://www.thefridaytimes.com/news2.htm
BJP`s true colors
by S UdayKumar
http://www.thefridaytimes.com/news2.htm
#118 Posted by rsaxena on October 28, 2001 4:33:40 am
And Chowk Pakis were saying....
``(AP) - In buses and trucks, pickups and vans, more than 5,000 people rolled out of a northeastern Pakistan village Saturday morning, bound for the Afghan frontier and vowing to fight a holy war against the United States. Thousands of Pakistani men, young and old, had massed in Temergarah on Friday night with assault rifles, machine guns, even rocket launchers.``
``(AP) - In buses and trucks, pickups and vans, more than 5,000 people rolled out of a northeastern Pakistan village Saturday morning, bound for the Afghan frontier and vowing to fight a holy war against the United States. Thousands of Pakistani men, young and old, had massed in Temergarah on Friday night with assault rifles, machine guns, even rocket launchers.``
#117 Posted by FarzanaVersey on October 28, 2001 4:33:40 am
MaheshG (# 104):
[“Farzana ji, aap theek farmatin hain. Aapke aur hamare khayalaton mein koi faraq nahin. Aakhir hum ek hi mulk ke log hain.
Is feudalism in Pakistan legal or illegal?
Are what you mentioned in India legal or illegal?
Hey, I know India scuks big time but can`t you find something positive to say about it sometime?”]
Feudalism, as has been pointed out already, is a mindset. The West has its own version. In India aspects of feudalism may be illegal, but you cannot abolish behaviour, attitudes, can you? Can we say that only because the law permits something it ought to be considered ethical? Then the Personal Laws still have judicial credence -- why are we fighting them? We see child marriages being conducted -- what does the law do? We watch commissions of enquiry getting debased by the government in power. We have the courts watch helplessly as cases they are supposed to handle are taken over by public sentiments. Now there is a law. Does it lessen the problem? Is civilization all about paperwork?
I do have positive things to say about India, but obviously it does not get noticed since I am often talking about the twilight zone. I wish I would be seen as a devil’s advocate, if nothing else. We hang on to every word of a Huntington or Chomsky, no doubt well argued and erudite, but we have problems when our own people point our flaws.
I have always spoken as an Indian and at last you have accepted it. But I have a sneaky suspicion that this is not going to last…. you have your eyes trained elsewhere :)
Farzana
[“Farzana ji, aap theek farmatin hain. Aapke aur hamare khayalaton mein koi faraq nahin. Aakhir hum ek hi mulk ke log hain.
Is feudalism in Pakistan legal or illegal?
Are what you mentioned in India legal or illegal?
Hey, I know India scuks big time but can`t you find something positive to say about it sometime?”]
Feudalism, as has been pointed out already, is a mindset. The West has its own version. In India aspects of feudalism may be illegal, but you cannot abolish behaviour, attitudes, can you? Can we say that only because the law permits something it ought to be considered ethical? Then the Personal Laws still have judicial credence -- why are we fighting them? We see child marriages being conducted -- what does the law do? We watch commissions of enquiry getting debased by the government in power. We have the courts watch helplessly as cases they are supposed to handle are taken over by public sentiments. Now there is a law. Does it lessen the problem? Is civilization all about paperwork?
I do have positive things to say about India, but obviously it does not get noticed since I am often talking about the twilight zone. I wish I would be seen as a devil’s advocate, if nothing else. We hang on to every word of a Huntington or Chomsky, no doubt well argued and erudite, but we have problems when our own people point our flaws.
I have always spoken as an Indian and at last you have accepted it. But I have a sneaky suspicion that this is not going to last…. you have your eyes trained elsewhere :)
Farzana
#116 Posted by rsaxena on October 28, 2001 4:33:40 am
Re: ylh on gandhi
You`d be a free housemaid at some British commander`s home right now if it weren`t for Gandhi`s freedom struggle. He got you freedom..of course being a Pakistani you`ve never truly experienced it given all the coups and dictatorships your country loves.
You`d be a free housemaid at some British commander`s home right now if it weren`t for Gandhi`s freedom struggle. He got you freedom..of course being a Pakistani you`ve never truly experienced it given all the coups and dictatorships your country loves.
#115 Posted by rsaxena on October 28, 2001 4:33:40 am
Re: ylh
Repeating the same delusions 50 times doesn`t make them come true.
Repeating the same delusions 50 times doesn`t make them come true.
#114 Posted by Urstruly on October 27, 2001 6:40:23 pm
Damn you hamidm, your blurry post was so hard to read
#113 Posted by ylh on October 27, 2001 2:47:01 pm
Harimau and Rsaxena,
Unlike you hate mongers whose educational system feeds your hatred of Jinnah and Pakistan, I dislike (note dislike not hate) Gandhi`s Eastern Mystic nonsense the same way Hamidm does and for the same reason Churchill disliked him. The books that I read in school had nothing against Gandhi.
Gandhi was a religious spiritualist and thats about it. I dont like religious spiritualists PERIOD, and not because I am a Pakistani (for we have our fairshare of obscurantists) but because I am an avowed Kemalist... my dislike for Gandhi`s ideology is rooted in my admiration for Kemal Ataturk and his revolution. I dislike Gandhi for the same reason I dislike sufism, I dislike Gandhi for the same reason I dislike Pir Babas and Dargahs.
Saxena as for your rather laughable assertion, at least the `Islamic fundamentalist` Pakistan is not ruled by an Islamic fundamentalist party, much more than I can say for `secular` India, which is ruled by a coalition of Hindu fundamentalists and Hindu terrorists.
-YLH
PS By the way Pakistanis, congratulations on Maleeha Lodhi`s performance on CNN in which she left the Indian ambassador totally outwitted, outsmarted and out of arguments.
Unlike you hate mongers whose educational system feeds your hatred of Jinnah and Pakistan, I dislike (note dislike not hate) Gandhi`s Eastern Mystic nonsense the same way Hamidm does and for the same reason Churchill disliked him. The books that I read in school had nothing against Gandhi.
Gandhi was a religious spiritualist and thats about it. I dont like religious spiritualists PERIOD, and not because I am a Pakistani (for we have our fairshare of obscurantists) but because I am an avowed Kemalist... my dislike for Gandhi`s ideology is rooted in my admiration for Kemal Ataturk and his revolution. I dislike Gandhi for the same reason I dislike sufism, I dislike Gandhi for the same reason I dislike Pir Babas and Dargahs.
Saxena as for your rather laughable assertion, at least the `Islamic fundamentalist` Pakistan is not ruled by an Islamic fundamentalist party, much more than I can say for `secular` India, which is ruled by a coalition of Hindu fundamentalists and Hindu terrorists.
-YLH
PS By the way Pakistanis, congratulations on Maleeha Lodhi`s performance on CNN in which she left the Indian ambassador totally outwitted, outsmarted and out of arguments.
#112 Posted by SameerJB on October 27, 2001 2:47:01 pm
hamidm[they don`t wash up properly, as instructed by god and gabriel.........]
if god and gabriel instructions are to be true, all human waste has to be water soluble. Water only dissolves (or washes away) water-soluble material. It is ritual cleansing rather than actual cleansing......god and gabriel more interested in rituals than actual? May be they left the actual for humans to work out to develop soaps, detergents and Preparation-H. Oh well, I can live with ritualistically not drinking generic whiskies and actually drinking Fuzair`s favorite glenmorange........
if god and gabriel instructions are to be true, all human waste has to be water soluble. Water only dissolves (or washes away) water-soluble material. It is ritual cleansing rather than actual cleansing......god and gabriel more interested in rituals than actual? May be they left the actual for humans to work out to develop soaps, detergents and Preparation-H. Oh well, I can live with ritualistically not drinking generic whiskies and actually drinking Fuzair`s favorite glenmorange........
#111 Posted by hamidm on October 27, 2001 1:06:33 pm
... just when you thought it was safe, urstruly is back from the caves of kandahar ..... oh, well!
....... what i don`t understand is why everyone is so upset at being sterotyped as being a feudal lord or a unwashed beggar by a na-paak paleet gora infidel farangi whose peole are as promiscuous as the animal they eat ....
..... now, we all know that these people, who eat the unmentionable, abandon their babies and old parents so that they can sing and dance and drink and have casual sex with abandon .........most of them are drunkards and wife-abusers who don`t wash their hands after going to the bait-ul-khala ..... and let`s not even talk about the fact that after a visit to the house of release they don`t wash up properly, as instructed by god and gabriel.........verily, these dwellers of sodom and san-franciso will burn in eternal fire .....
........ and as urstruly and the faithful will testify, their women have no shame .... as soon as the momin armed with an f-1 steps off the plane, he is confronted by wanton whores and harlots who want to do horrible things to him ..... astaghfirullah ! ......... but then, maybe it is not all true because urstruly still admits to engaging in an activity that leads to blindness and three years in purgatory ........
....... what i don`t understand is why everyone is so upset at being sterotyped as being a feudal lord or a unwashed beggar by a na-paak paleet gora infidel farangi whose peole are as promiscuous as the animal they eat ....
..... now, we all know that these people, who eat the unmentionable, abandon their babies and old parents so that they can sing and dance and drink and have casual sex with abandon .........most of them are drunkards and wife-abusers who don`t wash their hands after going to the bait-ul-khala ..... and let`s not even talk about the fact that after a visit to the house of release they don`t wash up properly, as instructed by god and gabriel.........verily, these dwellers of sodom and san-franciso will burn in eternal fire .....
........ and as urstruly and the faithful will testify, their women have no shame .... as soon as the momin armed with an f-1 steps off the plane, he is confronted by wanton whores and harlots who want to do horrible things to him ..... astaghfirullah ! ......... but then, maybe it is not all true because urstruly still admits to engaging in an activity that leads to blindness and three years in purgatory ........
#110 Posted by FarzanaVersey on October 27, 2001 1:06:33 pm
Bijli (#85):
[“Hi farzana ,I liked your post ,I know the first one was emotional ,but whats wrong with Passion in your reply it shows YOU CARE.”]
Arre Bijli, only lightning can understand thunder :)
Ali 1 (#82):
[“We (Pakistan) have nothing in common with the land of bubonic plague, the land of naked fakirs, the land of urine imbibing sadhus, the heap of cowdung, the putrid gutter..... India.
AAAAKHH THOOOOO”]
Wah, you have described my country. Except that you are slightly out of touch with the times. Bubonic plague has all but disappeared, there was only one naked fakir and he is dead, our sadhus imbibe something more potent than urine, though some others do, and as far as I know cowdung cannot be heaped – usually it is made into cakes and the floor and walls are covered with it (I believe your northern areas follow the same practice)….as for putrid gutter, I haven’t heard of a sweet-smelling one.
Now do you realise that by spitting in this horrible mess is like adding an ant to an anthill? Does it even make an impact or get noticed? (Besides, Ali, I live there….hamara to thoda khayal karo :)
Dear urstruly (#91):
You confuse me. [“We must encourage such people because they are a mouthpiece of the ugly side of our collective conscience. They are like a person who holds a mirror in front of your face; only you can see your face in the mirror but he can`t.”]
So you are a closet liberal! Yeah, got you there… As for the writer in question, he does not claim to be a bigot or a stereotyper, you are finding excuses for him. And worse, you are expressing terrible double standards in doing so. For, you say you will not apply the same yardstick for Hindus. Why?
[“They are exactly what their words are. Their words seem to be bigoted but they are not because Hindus do not know any other way to express themselves. Again this is not a
question of right or wrong, it is just a matter of being what they are.”]
If they are what their words are and their words ‘seem’ bigoted, then should they not be bigoted? You further state that it is not a question of right or wrong. If they are what they are and it does not matter anymore (gosh, who has been feeding you all that ghaas-phoos lettuce!), should I assume that you are now ready to accept them as qualified mirrors as well? I mean, you do not resent their bigotry and are poking fun as you would of “a limp or a crippled person” -- where is your real sense of humour? This is not even slapstick, it is cruel.
And since you are in an otherwise generous mood, may I ask whether you believe that the USA is only showing the Islamic world its ugly face? Damn! If they did not anoint me your friend here and I liked lettuce, I could start hating you :)
Trillium (#96):
[“Farce-Anna
You alone have brought `a letter home` alive in the form of a screeching, animus ridden voice from an impersonal, intellectual... wilderness, the very essence of all-or-nothing/lose-lose paradox. Tanks!”]
Whyfor you tanking me, sir? Don’t make me feel like I is only one in whole wide world to make anything alive. That is only Allah taala’s marzee and sometimes man-woman doing things in dark, dark night…also you cannot forget my co-brothers and sisters here who said nice-nice things and some said bad even…swear I did not pay them any monies. But as you tank me, I says your very welcome, sir. We subcontinentals like to put outsiders on our head (sar par chadhaana we say, but my Engliss is better so I spick only that, okay?) Also you put private letter in public place so I say to my peoples, look, man so brave, going into jungle to teach, writing to child about it…reminding me of fairytale. After reading fairytales I always screech…Indian habit, no? But don’t mind, if you read your own letter lots of screeching there also, so I thought you are like us only, but I making mistake. What to do? I don’t have Pajero and driver shines car with spit. He says it is hundred per cent like desi ghee…you understand my point? No? Good. That means we are different. So take care, as Amreekis say. I getting frightened everytime I hearing this, like something bad going to happen all the time. But shukr hai, god blessing Amreeka all the time…and before I forgets, I cried so much when you called me ‘Farce-anna’. You not even knowing me and giving me pet name. Even my own mother who is giving me birth did not say such sweet word before. Tank you too.
[“Hi farzana ,I liked your post ,I know the first one was emotional ,but whats wrong with Passion in your reply it shows YOU CARE.”]
Arre Bijli, only lightning can understand thunder :)
Ali 1 (#82):
[“We (Pakistan) have nothing in common with the land of bubonic plague, the land of naked fakirs, the land of urine imbibing sadhus, the heap of cowdung, the putrid gutter..... India.
AAAAKHH THOOOOO”]
Wah, you have described my country. Except that you are slightly out of touch with the times. Bubonic plague has all but disappeared, there was only one naked fakir and he is dead, our sadhus imbibe something more potent than urine, though some others do, and as far as I know cowdung cannot be heaped – usually it is made into cakes and the floor and walls are covered with it (I believe your northern areas follow the same practice)….as for putrid gutter, I haven’t heard of a sweet-smelling one.
Now do you realise that by spitting in this horrible mess is like adding an ant to an anthill? Does it even make an impact or get noticed? (Besides, Ali, I live there….hamara to thoda khayal karo :)
Dear urstruly (#91):
You confuse me. [“We must encourage such people because they are a mouthpiece of the ugly side of our collective conscience. They are like a person who holds a mirror in front of your face; only you can see your face in the mirror but he can`t.”]
So you are a closet liberal! Yeah, got you there… As for the writer in question, he does not claim to be a bigot or a stereotyper, you are finding excuses for him. And worse, you are expressing terrible double standards in doing so. For, you say you will not apply the same yardstick for Hindus. Why?
[“They are exactly what their words are. Their words seem to be bigoted but they are not because Hindus do not know any other way to express themselves. Again this is not a
question of right or wrong, it is just a matter of being what they are.”]
If they are what their words are and their words ‘seem’ bigoted, then should they not be bigoted? You further state that it is not a question of right or wrong. If they are what they are and it does not matter anymore (gosh, who has been feeding you all that ghaas-phoos lettuce!), should I assume that you are now ready to accept them as qualified mirrors as well? I mean, you do not resent their bigotry and are poking fun as you would of “a limp or a crippled person” -- where is your real sense of humour? This is not even slapstick, it is cruel.
And since you are in an otherwise generous mood, may I ask whether you believe that the USA is only showing the Islamic world its ugly face? Damn! If they did not anoint me your friend here and I liked lettuce, I could start hating you :)
Trillium (#96):
[“Farce-Anna
You alone have brought `a letter home` alive in the form of a screeching, animus ridden voice from an impersonal, intellectual... wilderness, the very essence of all-or-nothing/lose-lose paradox. Tanks!”]
Whyfor you tanking me, sir? Don’t make me feel like I is only one in whole wide world to make anything alive. That is only Allah taala’s marzee and sometimes man-woman doing things in dark, dark night…also you cannot forget my co-brothers and sisters here who said nice-nice things and some said bad even…swear I did not pay them any monies. But as you tank me, I says your very welcome, sir. We subcontinentals like to put outsiders on our head (sar par chadhaana we say, but my Engliss is better so I spick only that, okay?) Also you put private letter in public place so I say to my peoples, look, man so brave, going into jungle to teach, writing to child about it…reminding me of fairytale. After reading fairytales I always screech…Indian habit, no? But don’t mind, if you read your own letter lots of screeching there also, so I thought you are like us only, but I making mistake. What to do? I don’t have Pajero and driver shines car with spit. He says it is hundred per cent like desi ghee…you understand my point? No? Good. That means we are different. So take care, as Amreekis say. I getting frightened everytime I hearing this, like something bad going to happen all the time. But shukr hai, god blessing Amreeka all the time…and before I forgets, I cried so much when you called me ‘Farce-anna’. You not even knowing me and giving me pet name. Even my own mother who is giving me birth did not say such sweet word before. Tank you too.
#109 Posted by veeresh on October 27, 2001 10:25:18 am
Subject for discussion if possible pliss: ``Pakistani rulers have been more competent in their corruption than Indian rulers. This is good/bad/does not matter for the average Pakistani.``
#108 Posted by AAmir on October 27, 2001 10:25:18 am
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#107 Posted by hamzadafaqui on October 27, 2001 10:25:18 am
So this is how it all began!
THE GREAT ANTHRAX STOCK SWINDLE!
Where, oh where to begin!
Well, let`s begin with Adm. William J. Crowe Jr. It seems that back when Goerge H. W. Bush was setting up Osama Bin Laden as a Freedom fighter (A ``freedom fighter`` is the same thing as a terrorist, only aimed at someone you don`t like), the good Admiral and his buddies on the Joint Chiefs were selling American made weapons-grade Anthrax to Saddam Hussein in the hopes that he would use it on Iran (and then we wonder why the Iranian people don`t much like Americans). Who knows who else got these American-made weapons of mass destruction either from Admiral Crowe or Saddam.
But that was then and this is now. Admiral Crowe is retired. Admiral Crowe is quite wealthy, far beyond what one might expect on even an Admiral`s salary. In fact, Admiral Crowe sits on the Board of Directors and owns 13% of BioPort Corporation.
What is the BioPort Corporation, I hear you ask? Well, it`s the only corporation in the United States with a license to make Anthrax Vaccine. Except that BioPOrt doesn`t actually make the vaccine, BioPOrt simply bought the lab that does make the vaccine, Michigan Biologic Products Institute, from the State of Michigan in 1998, oddly enough at the same time John J. Maresca, Vice President of International Relations, UNOCAL Corporation, was telling congress that access to the oil reserves under the Caspian Sea required a new government in Afghanistan.
Along with the actual Anthrax Vaccine, BioPort acquired Michigan Biologic Products Institute`s sole and exclusive customer for the vaccine, the U.S. Department of defense. And here is the kicker. Since acquiring Michigan Biologic Products Institute, BioPort has not delivered a drop of the stuff! Only 4% of the vaccine contracted for has been delivered. FDA audits have uncovered suspicious record keeping and contamination problems, causing the FDA to ban delivery of the product. Despite this ban, the U.S. Government has continued to front BioPort millions of dollars to kep the operation going. And, given the ``State of Emergancy``, it is likely that FDA concerns for the product will soon be set aside and the vaccine delivered, not to the citizens whose taxes paid for it all, but to the military and to the government.
So, good old Admiral Crowe and his fellow investors in BioPort are set to make a bundle off of the Anthrax scare. Especially when market demand pushes the price of the product high up above the contracted for $3.50 an ounce. And who are those fellow investors? Well, another part of BioPort is owned by the Carlyse Group. That`s George H. W. Bush`s current occupation. Yet another portion is owned by (you had better sit down), the Bin Laden family!
That`s right. Just as the Bin Laden family made a fortune with the contract to rebuild the Khobar Towers supposedly blown up by Osama, the Bin Ladens will again make a fortune from their part ownership of the only company able to make an Anthrax Vaccine in the United States, because Osama might have some of that Anthrax that the United States sold to Saddam. In fact, the shortage created by the FDA bans will make all the players instant billionaires as market forces drive the price of the vaccine up to thousands of dollars per ounce. (The same amount of Anthrax treatment Cipro that sells for $20 in India now costs $690 in the US).
A very cozy arrangement. The Bushes and Bin Ladens (and the occasional complicit Admiral) are all making money off of the fear and death of Americans and Afghanis.
It`s called ``profiteering``.
It`s called conspiracy with a forign power against the interests of the people of the nation.
This sort of thing is what got Charles the First into trouble!
SOURCE: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/anthrax_swindle.html
THE GREAT ANTHRAX STOCK SWINDLE!
Where, oh where to begin!
Well, let`s begin with Adm. William J. Crowe Jr. It seems that back when Goerge H. W. Bush was setting up Osama Bin Laden as a Freedom fighter (A ``freedom fighter`` is the same thing as a terrorist, only aimed at someone you don`t like), the good Admiral and his buddies on the Joint Chiefs were selling American made weapons-grade Anthrax to Saddam Hussein in the hopes that he would use it on Iran (and then we wonder why the Iranian people don`t much like Americans). Who knows who else got these American-made weapons of mass destruction either from Admiral Crowe or Saddam.
But that was then and this is now. Admiral Crowe is retired. Admiral Crowe is quite wealthy, far beyond what one might expect on even an Admiral`s salary. In fact, Admiral Crowe sits on the Board of Directors and owns 13% of BioPort Corporation.
What is the BioPort Corporation, I hear you ask? Well, it`s the only corporation in the United States with a license to make Anthrax Vaccine. Except that BioPOrt doesn`t actually make the vaccine, BioPOrt simply bought the lab that does make the vaccine, Michigan Biologic Products Institute, from the State of Michigan in 1998, oddly enough at the same time John J. Maresca, Vice President of International Relations, UNOCAL Corporation, was telling congress that access to the oil reserves under the Caspian Sea required a new government in Afghanistan.
Along with the actual Anthrax Vaccine, BioPort acquired Michigan Biologic Products Institute`s sole and exclusive customer for the vaccine, the U.S. Department of defense. And here is the kicker. Since acquiring Michigan Biologic Products Institute, BioPort has not delivered a drop of the stuff! Only 4% of the vaccine contracted for has been delivered. FDA audits have uncovered suspicious record keeping and contamination problems, causing the FDA to ban delivery of the product. Despite this ban, the U.S. Government has continued to front BioPort millions of dollars to kep the operation going. And, given the ``State of Emergancy``, it is likely that FDA concerns for the product will soon be set aside and the vaccine delivered, not to the citizens whose taxes paid for it all, but to the military and to the government.
So, good old Admiral Crowe and his fellow investors in BioPort are set to make a bundle off of the Anthrax scare. Especially when market demand pushes the price of the product high up above the contracted for $3.50 an ounce. And who are those fellow investors? Well, another part of BioPort is owned by the Carlyse Group. That`s George H. W. Bush`s current occupation. Yet another portion is owned by (you had better sit down), the Bin Laden family!
That`s right. Just as the Bin Laden family made a fortune with the contract to rebuild the Khobar Towers supposedly blown up by Osama, the Bin Ladens will again make a fortune from their part ownership of the only company able to make an Anthrax Vaccine in the United States, because Osama might have some of that Anthrax that the United States sold to Saddam. In fact, the shortage created by the FDA bans will make all the players instant billionaires as market forces drive the price of the vaccine up to thousands of dollars per ounce. (The same amount of Anthrax treatment Cipro that sells for $20 in India now costs $690 in the US).
A very cozy arrangement. The Bushes and Bin Ladens (and the occasional complicit Admiral) are all making money off of the fear and death of Americans and Afghanis.
It`s called ``profiteering``.
It`s called conspiracy with a forign power against the interests of the people of the nation.
This sort of thing is what got Charles the First into trouble!
SOURCE: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/anthrax_swindle.html
#106 Posted by vineet on October 27, 2001 10:25:18 am
Trillium:
Pakistan has first sold to China by giving a part of Kashmir as a gift. There has been no hue and cry about China occupying part of Kashmir, or human right abuses of Chinese in regards to Uighars or Muslims or Tibetans.
Pakistan is not bothered about the Biharis stranded in Bangladesh for 28 years. Pakistan always treated East Pakistanis as third grade citizens and killed nearly 3 million Bangalis. And they are supporting terrorism by calling it indigeneos freedom movement in Kashmir and Indian Punjab.(by supporting Khalistanis). Even today some Khalistani terrorists are living in plush villas in Lahore , supported by Pakistan.
Pakistan has first sold to China by giving a part of Kashmir as a gift. There has been no hue and cry about China occupying part of Kashmir, or human right abuses of Chinese in regards to Uighars or Muslims or Tibetans.
Pakistan is not bothered about the Biharis stranded in Bangladesh for 28 years. Pakistan always treated East Pakistanis as third grade citizens and killed nearly 3 million Bangalis. And they are supporting terrorism by calling it indigeneos freedom movement in Kashmir and Indian Punjab.(by supporting Khalistanis). Even today some Khalistani terrorists are living in plush villas in Lahore , supported by Pakistan.
#105 Posted by MaheshG on October 27, 2001 10:25:18 am
``I also lodge a strong protest. How can India and Pak be clubbed together? There is no feudalism in India; we only have zamindaari, dadagiri, aiyyashi, where in the villages there is bonded labour, in the urban shanties slum lords extract money for every little thing, and the city slickers ram BMWs into innocents and are let off. We have no feudalism at all. Mahesh, aapke aur hamare khayalat kitne milte-julte hai, na?``
Farzana ji, aap theek farmatin hain. Aapke aur hamare khayalaton mein koi faraq nahin. Aakhir hum ek hi mulk ke log hain.
Is feudalism in Pakistan legal or illegal?
Are what you mentioned in India legal or illegal?
Hey, I know India scuks big time but can`t you find something positive to say about it sometime?
#104 Posted by Bijli on October 27, 2001 10:25:18 am
#86
FARZANA VARSEY BIBI
Excuse me i decided to give yoyu a middle name :-))
Talking to our old Chowkie (in time here only ,NOT IN AGE)MaheshG you rightfully point to Indian Feudelism,Chauvinism & Lords in there own ways
``I also lodge a strong protest. How can India and Pak be clubbed together? There is no feudalism in India; we only have zamindaari, dadagiri, aiyyashi, where in the villages there is bonded labour, in the urban shanties slum lords extract money for every little thing, and the city slickers ram BMWs into innocents and are let off. We have no feudalism at all. Mahesh, aapke aur hamare khayalat kitne milte-julte hai, na?``
When i was in India 2 years ago Grand son of Deen Dayal Sharma ,in broad view of whole night club,shot in the point black a Jessica Lal who was christian beuty queen,model cum bar tender that night.27 months past ,the case is still being prolonged b/cone of the bearer poor eye witnesswho first gave report to police is BOUGHT out !!!
FARZANA VARSEY BIBI
Excuse me i decided to give yoyu a middle name :-))
Talking to our old Chowkie (in time here only ,NOT IN AGE)MaheshG you rightfully point to Indian Feudelism,Chauvinism & Lords in there own ways
``I also lodge a strong protest. How can India and Pak be clubbed together? There is no feudalism in India; we only have zamindaari, dadagiri, aiyyashi, where in the villages there is bonded labour, in the urban shanties slum lords extract money for every little thing, and the city slickers ram BMWs into innocents and are let off. We have no feudalism at all. Mahesh, aapke aur hamare khayalat kitne milte-julte hai, na?``
When i was in India 2 years ago Grand son of Deen Dayal Sharma ,in broad view of whole night club,shot in the point black a Jessica Lal who was christian beuty queen,model cum bar tender that night.27 months past ,the case is still being prolonged b/cone of the bearer poor eye witnesswho first gave report to police is BOUGHT out !!!
#103 Posted by hamzadafaqui on October 27, 2001 10:25:18 am
It may be hard to believe now but the Afghan(Taliban) Ambassador was in California in March this year delivering an address at University of California.
Also,those who have heard the talk given by Mulla Muttawakkul in some other university were also spellbound by his erudition & command of the French & English languages.Arabic,farsi,pushto,darri,urdu,& uzbeki are others he excels in.
Please access www.inin.com for a treasure-trove of news sources----the Free,Unbiased,and Balanced ones...like alJazeera!
Happy searchinglet others know too!
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Roving Afghanistan Ambassador Sayyid Rahmatullah Hashemi`s Speech at The University of Southern California on March 10, 2001
Allah says: ``O you who believe! If a rebellious evil person comes to you with a news, verify it, lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done.`` (Qur`an 49:6)
Sayyid Rahmatullah Hashemi is the roving Ambassador from Afghanistan who recently visited the US. He has been active in giving lectures on the real situation regarding the Taliban in Afghanistan throughout central and Southern California. The following is the transcribed lecture given by Sayyid Rahmatullah Hashemi at the University Of Southern California on March 10, 2001:
__________________________________________________
Sayyid Rahmatullah Hashemi
I was just coming from [a meeting with] a group of scholars, and the first thing we started there was the statues. And the first thing we started here was also the statues. It s very unfortunate how little we see and how little we know. And it really confuses me, if people really know that little or not. Nobody has seen the problems of Afghanistan; nobody saw their problems before. And the only thing that represents Afghanistan today are the statues.
The problem of Afghanistan was not new. As you know that Afghanistan is called, The Crossroads of Asia. So, we are suffering because of our geo-strategic location. We have suffered in the 18th century, 19th century, and we are still suffering in this century.
We have not attacked the British. We have not attacked the Russians. It was them who attacked us. So the problems in Afghanistan you see is not our creation. That reflects the image of the world. If you don t like the image in the mirror, do not break the mirror; break your face.
The problems in Afghanistan started in 1979. Afghanistan was a peaceful country and it was doing its own job. The Russians, along with their 140,000 troops attacked Afghanistan in the December of 1979, just 21 years ago, stayed there for a decade, killed one and a half million people, maimed one million more people, and six million out of the eighteen million people migrated because of the Russian brutalities. Even today, our children are dying because of the landmines that they planted for us. And nobody knows about this.
After the Russians left during the Russian occupation, on the other side, the American government, the British government, the French, the Chinese, and all of the rest, supported the counter-revolutionaries called the Mujahideen; 7 parties only in Pakistan and 8 parties in Iran who fought the Russian occupation. And after the Russians left, these parties went into Afghanistan. All of them had different ideologies, a lot of weapon[s]. And instead of having a single administration, they fought in Afghanistan. The destruction that they brought was worse than the destruction the Russians brought. 63,000 people were only killed in the capitol, Kabul. Seeing all this chaos, and the complete destruction of our country, and I don t have to forget that after the Soviets left, another million people migrated because of the lawlessness that existed in Afghanistan 7 million people.
So seeing this destruction and lawlessness, a group of students called the Taliban Taliban is the plural word of students in our language; it may be two students in Arabic, but in our language it means students so a group of students started a movement called the Movement of Students. It first started in a village in the southern province of Afghanistan, called Kandahar. It happened when a war-lord, or a commander abducted two minor girls, raped them, and the parents of those girls went to a school and asked the teacher of the school to help them. The teacher of that school, along with his 53 students, finding only 16 guns, went and attacked the base of that commander. After releasing those two girls, they hanged that commander, and so many of their [the commander s] people ! were also hanged. This story was told everywhere; and this was called the terrorist story of the Taliban, or the Students. BBC also quoted this story. Seeing or hearing this story, many other students joined this movement and started disarming the rest of the warlords, who were worse than these. I will not prolong this story so far, this same students movement controls 95% of the country; they captured the capitol, including the four major cities. And only a bunch of those warlords are remaining in the northern corridor of Afghanistan.
So our achievements are as follows. We are in a government for only five years, and the following things that we have done, and many of you may not know:
* The first thing we have done is reunify the fragmented country. Afghanistan was formerly fragmented into five parts. The first thing we have done is to reunify that country. The United Nations, the United States, everybody was confused as to how to reunify that country, and nobody could do it. First thing we have done is to reunify that country. * Second thing we have done, which everybody failed to do, was disarming a population. After dealing [with] the war of the Russians, and the Americans I would say, every Afghan got a Kalashnikov, and even sophisticated weapons such as stinger missiles, and they even got fighter planes and fighter helicopters. So disarming these people was impossible. The United Nations in 1992 passed an appeal asking for 3 billion dollars to re-purchase that arms, to start a process of repurchasing those arms. And suddenly, because of its impracticalibility, that plan never materialized, and everybody forgot about Afghanistan. So the second thing we have done is to disarm 95% of that country. * And the third thing that we have done is to establish a single administration under Afghanistan, which did not exist for 10 years. * And the fourth achievement that we have that is surprising to everybody is that we have eradicated 75% of all worlds Opium cultivation. Afghanistan produced 75% of all worlds Opium. The drug, you know that Opium? The Narcotics business? And last year we issued an edict asking the people to stop growing Opium, and this year, the United Nations Drug Control Program, UNDCP, and their head, [Mr.] Barnard F., proudly announced that there was 0% of Opium cultivation. Not at all. And this was not a good news for UN itself because many of them lost their jobs. In the UNDCP, 700 so called experts were working there and they got their salaries and they! never went into Afghanistan. So when we issued this edict, I know that they were not happy. And this year they lost their jobs. And this was our fourth achievement. * The fifth achievement that we have, but it s a little controversial, some of our friends will not know is the restoration of Human rights. Now, YOU may think that is a violation of Human Rights, but from OUR perspective that is the restoration of Human Rights. Because usually [among] the fundamental rights of a human being is the right to Live. Before us, nobody could live peacefully in Afghanistan. So the first thing we have done, begun [to give] to the people is a secure and peaceful life. The second major thing that we have restored is to give them free and fair justice; you don t have to buy justice, unlike here. You will have justice freely. And you have criticized us for violating women s rights; now, who knows what happened before us. Only some symbolic schools, or symbolic posts were given to some women in the ministry, and that was called the restoration of women s rights. I can see some Afghans living here, and they will agree with me, that in the rural areas of Afghanistan, women were used as animals. They were SOLD actually. The first thing we have done is to give the self-determination to women, and it happened not in the history of Afghanistan. Throughout the history of Afghanistan, during all the so-called civilized kings or whatever, they didn t give this right to women, so women were sold. ! They didn t have the right to select their husbands, or to reject their husbands. First thing we have done is to let them choose their future. And you will know that throughout south Asia, women are killed under the title of honor killings. It happens when a woman s relation is detected with a man, whether or not the relation was sexual, they re both killed. But now this is not happening in our country. And the third thing that happened only in Afghanistan, was women were exchanged as gifts; this was not something religious; this was something cultural. When two tribal tribes were fighting among themselves, then in order to get their tribal issue reconciliated, they would exchange women, and then [they]! would make, or announce reconciliation. And this has been stopped. If we [had to give] fundamental rights of woman, we had to start from zero; we couldn t jump in the middle. Now you ve asked me about the rights of women s education and the rights of women s work. Unlike what is said here, women do work in Afghanistan. You re right that until 1997 I mean, in 1996 when we captured the capitol Kabul, we did ask women to stay home. It didn t mean that we wanted them to stay at home forever, but nobody listened to us. We said that there is no law, and there is no order, and have to stay at home. They were raped before us, ever! yday. So, after we disarmed the people, and after we brought law and order, and now women are working. You are right that women are not working in the ministry of defense, like here. We don t want our women to be fighter pilot[s], or to be used as objects of decoration for advertisements. But they do work. They work in the Ministry of Health, Interior, Ministry of Education, Ministry of Social Affairs, and so on. So, and we don t have any problem with women s education. We have said that we want education, and we will have education whether or not we are under anybody s pressure, because that is part of our belief. We are ordered to do that. When we say that there should be segregated schools, it does not mean that we don t want our women to be educated. It is true that we are against co-education; but it is not true that we are against women s education. We do have schools even now, but the problem is the resources. We cannot expand these programs. Before, our government there were numerous curriculums that were going on; there were curriculums which preached the king for the kings, and there were curriculums which preached for the communists, and there were curriculums from all these seven parties [the previously mentioned]. So, the Students were confused as to what to study, and the first we have done today is to unify that curriculum, and that s goin! g on. But we are criticized, and we say that instead of criticism, if you just help us once, that will make a difference. Because criticism will not make a difference. If you [talk?] criticism from New York, thousands of miles away, we don t care. But if you come there and help us, we do care. So actually there are more girls students studying in the faculty of medical sciences than boys are. This is not me who is saying this, it is the United Nations who has announced this. Recently we reopened the faculty of medical science in all major cities of Afghanistan and in Kandahar, there are more girl students than boys. ! But they are segregated. And the Swedish committees have also established schools for girls. I know they are not enough, but that s what we can do. So, that is what I say that we have restored. I don t say we are 100% perfect, and nobody will say that they are 100% perfect. We do have shortcomings, and we do need to amend our policies. But we can t do everything over night. * And the sixth problem, that we are is it sixth or seventh? Seventh I think the seventh problem that we are accused of is Terrorism, or the existence of terrorists in Afghanistan. And for Americans terrorism or terrorist means only bin Laden. Now you will not know that Afghanistan, or bin Laden was in Afghanistan 17 years before even we existed. Bin Laden was in Afghanistan, fought the Soviet Union, and Mr. Ronald Reagan, the president of America in that time, and Dick, Mr. Dick Chaney called such people freedom fighters or the Heroes of Independence, because they were fighting for their cause. So Osama bin Laden was one of those guys who was instigated by such media reports, so in that provocation by these countries to go to Afghanista! n and fight the Soviets there. And now when the Soviet Union is fragmented, such people were not needed anymore, and they were transformed into terrorists from heroes to terrorists. So exactly like Mr. Yassir Arafat was transformed from a terrorist to a hero. So we don t know as to what is the definition of Terrorism. We do regret that the terrorists were actually horrific acts and they were terrorist acts. But if they are terrorist acts, what is the difference between those terrorist acts and the attacks on Afghanistan when in 1998 attacks, cruise missile attacks on Afghanistan. Neither of the two were declared and both of them killed civilians. So we are confused as! to what is the definition of Terrorism. If it means killing civilians blindly, both of them killed civilians blindly. And the fact is, I m not going to be offensive or rude, or rude about this, I m going to be frank. And I think it s sometimes honest to be rude. If the United States that it has acted for its defense, lets see. The United States government tried to kill a man without even giving him a fair trial. In 1998, they just sent cruise missiles into Afghanistan and they announced that they were trying to kill Osama bin Laden. We didn t know Osama bin Laden then. I didn t know him; he was just a simple man. So we were all shocked. I was one of those men who was sitting at home at night, I was called for an immediate council meeting and we all were told the United States have attacked Afghanistan. With 75 cruise missiles and trying to kill one man. And they missed that man; killed 19 other students and never apologized for those killings. So what would you do if you were in our status; if we were to go and send 75 cruise missiles into the United States and say that we were going to kill a man that we thought not believed that we thought was responsible for our embassy, and we missed that man, and we killed 19 other Americans what would the United States do? An instant declaration of war. But we we! re polite. We didn t declare war. We had a lot of problems at home; we didn t want further problem[s]. And since then, we are very open-minded on this issue. We have said, that if really this man is involved in the Kenya/Tanzania acts, if anybody can give us proof or evidence about his involvement in these horrific acts, we will punish him. Nobody gave us evidence. We put him on trial for 45 days and nobody gave us any kind of evidence. The fact is that the United States told us they did not believe in our judicial system. We were surprised as to what kind of judicial system they have?! They showed us as to what they are doing to the people they just tried to kill a man without even giving him a fair trial, even if one of us is a criminal here, the police is not going to blow his house, he must go to a court first. So, that was rejected. Our first proposal, despite all these things, was rejected. They said they will not believe in our judicial system, and we must give him to New York. The second proposal that we gave after the rejection of this first proposal we gave was, we are ready to accept an international monitoring group to come into Afghanistan and monitor this man s activities in Afghanistan. So that he does nothing. Even that he has no telecommunications [--]. That proposal was also rejected. And the third proposal we gave, six months ago, was that we were ready, that we were ready to try or accept a third Islamic country s decision, or the trial of [--] in a third Islamic country, with consent of Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan that was also rejected. So we don t know, as to what is the problem behind. If bin Laden was the only issue, we are still very open minded, and for the fourth time, I m here, with a letter from my leadership that I m going to submit to the state department hoping that they will resolve the problem. But I don t think so [that] they ll solve the problem. Because we think, and I personally think now that maybe the United States is looking for a Boogy Man always. Remember what Gorbachev said? He said, that he s going to do the worst thing ever to the United States. And everybody thought that he s going to blow the United States with nuclear weapon[s]. But he said, I m going to remove their enemy. And then he fragmented Soviet Union. And he was right. After he fragmented Soviet Union, a lot of people lost their jobs in the Pentagon, in the CIA, and the FBI, because they were not needed anymore. So we think that maybe these guys are looking for a Boogy Man now. Maybe they want to justify their annual budget, maybe they want to make their citizens feel that they are still needed to defend them. Afghanistan is not a terrorist state; we cannot even make a needle. How are we going to be a terrorist state? How are we going to be a threat to the world? If the world terrorism is really derived from the word terror , then there are countries making weapons of mass destruction, countries making nuclear weapons, forest deforestation, soil, air, and water pollution they are terrorist states; we are not. We cannot even make a needle; how are we going to be a threat to the world? So as I said in the beginning, the situation in Afghanistan is not our creation. The situation in Afghanistan reflects the world s image. If you don t like the image in the mirror, do not break the mirror; break your face.
Now, we are under sanctions. And the sanctions have caused a lot of problems, despite that we are going under so many problems, the 23 years of continuous war, the total destruction of our infrastructure, and the problem of refugees, and the problem of land mines in our agricultural lands, all of a sudden the United Nations, with the provocation of Russia, is imposing sanctions on Afghanistan. And the sanctions have been approved; we are under sanctions. Several hundred children died a month ago, here it is (holds up pamphlet). Seven hundred children died because of malnutrition and the severe cold weather. Nobody even talked about that. Everybody knows about t! he statues. For us, we are surprised, that the world is destroying our future with economic sanctions, then they have no right to worry about our past. Everybody is saying that they are destroying their heritage they don t have any right to talk about that. They are destroying the future of our children with economic sanctions, how are they going to justify talking about our past? I know it s not rational and logical to blow the statues for, for retaliation of economic sanctions. But this is how it is. I called, after this announcements, I called my headquarters, and I found out, I was really confused, I asked them, why are they going to blow the statues, and I talked to the head of the council of scholars of people, who had actually decided this, h! e told me that UNESCO and NGO from Sweden, or from one of these Scandinavian countries Norway, Sweden, one of these they had actually come, with a project of rebuilding the face of these statues, which have worn by rain. So the council of people had told them to spend that money in saving the lives of these children, instead of spending that money to [restore these] statues. And these guys said that, No, this money is only for the statues. And the people were really pissed off. They said that, If you don t care about our children, we are going to blow those statues.
[Person from the Audience yells, Takbeer! ]
[Audience responds, Allahu Akbar! ]
I don t say that he s right or wrong, the decision is yours. Think of yourself. If you are in such a problem, what would you do? If your children are dying in front of your eyes, and you are under sanctions, and then the same people who have imposed sanctions and are coming and building statues here? What will you do? So, I talked to my headquarters today, and they said that the statues have not been blown so far. But the people are so angry. They are really angry, they want to blow them. And there is Kofi Annan is going, you know Kofi Annan, the Secretary General o! f United Nations? He went to [--], to Pakistan, and he said he s going to meet our representative there. This man never bothered to enter, to talk about these children, he never bothered himself to talk about six million refugees, and he never talked about [the] poverty of Afghanistan. He only goes to that region because of these statues. And the OIC is also, they ve also sent a mission to go to Kabul and talk about those statues. So we re really confused. That the world is really caring about the statues, and then they don t care about human beings. I don t say we have to retaliate in blowing the statues; we have not done that. But if we were to destroy those statues! , we would have destroyed them three years before now, because we captured those areas those areas three years before now. We didn t want to blow them. And now the situation has come, and it s not our decision. This is the decision of the scholars and the people. And that is the decision has been approved by the Supreme Court. We cannot reject this decision. So these guys are there, the OIC and some, even I think some ministers from different countries are there to save the lives of these statutes. I think they will not be blown because of the concerns of these people. But it is really, really ridiculous. These people do no! t care about children, about people who are dying there, about the foreign interference that still exists, they only care about the statues. And I m sure they don t care about our heritage. They don t care about our heritage; they only care about their picnic site one time. Maybe they ll have a good picnic site there, seeing those statues. They don t care about our heritage, I m sure. If they were to care about our past, they wouldn t destroy our future. And I m sure these sanctions which are imposed on our government will never change us, because for us, our ideology is everything. To try to change our ideology with economic sanctions will never work. It may work i! n the United States, where the economy is everything, but for us, our ideology is everything. [--] And we believe that it is better to die for something than to live for nothing.
We are still open-minded. We are still, we have still opened our doors for negotiations, but our offices are closed everywhere our office was closed in New York a week ago. They are trying to shut our offices in other countries, trying to isolate us, and they don t know that isolation is counter-productive. Because they don t have experts; the only experts they have are those people who speak English. They don t even speak the language. Those experts who are advising the sanctions, or the sanction committee have not even been to Afghanistan. And they are setting benchmarks for us to achieve.
I m prolonging this speech, I m sorry, because I have been repeating it everywhere, so I may have left some thing in it, and I will let you ask me questions.
[Applause from Audience]
* * *Important Note: What follows are some of the answers to some of the questions that were asked during the Question and Answer session. Most of the questions were not included due to the poor recording. Apologies for the inconvenience. * * *
Br. Sayyid Rahmatullah Hashemi:
· [A questioner asks about the statement he heard on the radio from the Afghan former minister (Mutawakkil) confirming that the statues have been destroyed, and further adds, Does that mean the statues of Hindus and Sikhs will also be destroyed? He further asked that since the destruction of the statues was done in retaliation, Was it really saving the children? (it was asked in a provocative manner)]
Thank you very much and unfortunately again, the first question is the statues. So the statues as I told you, have not been destroyed so far. And I have contacted my headquarters there, and if they were destroyed, then people would not bother going there; as I told you Kofi Annan is there, OIC is there, and our foreign minister is there. And for us, as he [the questioner] said that Mutawakkil has said that [that the statues have been destroyed], I don t think he has said that they are destroyed. He said that [that the statues have not been destroyed]. And I don t reject this. They raised an edict which says these [the statues] should be! blown. And we are not against Buddhists; absolutely wrong. We are not against any religion. There are Hindus living in Afghanistan; there are different religions. There is one man who is a Jew living in Afghanistan.
[Audience laughs]
So we are not against any religion. And there is no Buddhist in Afghanistan, this I can say. In our religion, if anything, you can leave anything until it is not harmful to you. If these Buddhas were not harmful to us, so far. But now when the money is going to Buddhas reconstruction, and the children are dying next door, we think it s harmful now. Not we think, the people think. And I told you that this decision is taken by the council of scholars and the council of people. And has been approved by the Supreme Court. And the media is saying everywhere that it is an edict by our leadership. Hav! e you ever seen our leadership on TV? Have you ever seen or heard him (Mullah Umar) on international radio? He has never been on radio, so it s absolutely wrong that we issued an edict. I do agree that there is an edict, but by the council of people and the scholars, and has been approved by the Supreme Court, but has not been implemented so far. Is it enough? You know, really, I am asked so much about these statues that I have a headache now. If I go back to Afghanistan, I will blow them.
[Audience laughs]
· [Questioner asks about the infighting between Mujahideens now. He asks, in the past we knew that there was one common enemy (the Russians) and it was easy to support the Mujahideen but now it s the groups of Mujahideens fighting between each other. How do you explain this?]
They [the different Mujahideen groups] killed so many people, and there were so many problem[s]. And that s why we started our movement. It s all in these people. They didn t fight for Shari ah, or they didn t fight for Afghanistan, they only fought for their future post in power. So we, as I told you that, we finished that. And only now, we have one opposition headed by Ahmed Shah Masood. And we don t have much problems with him. We had talks with his representative in Ashkabad in Ramadhaan this year, and I was there. So, we say that he failed in bringing about a constitution, a unified gove! rnment; he could not even unify the capitol, Kabul. So we did all these things. So we asked him, despite that he controls nothing, except 5% in the mountains, and we have said we are still open-minded. We agree that he should have a post, because he has fought the Russians. And in `98, we agreed on a joint government; actually, I was also there, so we agreed in giving them three ministries and accepting their judicial system merging with our judicial system, and giving them three or four district or provincial governors or something like that. And they agreed on that. Our, on our part, we asked them to give us their weapons, because the problem in Afghanistan is not political differences. The problem in Afghanis! tan is the weapons. Everybody has had weapons, and now if they are fighting us, it is not because of our very much ideological differences; it s because of weapons. There were a lot of weapons before, and you know, the Afghans will know that so many times they tried to have one government and then after a week or so, they fought, because all of them got different defense ministries, and they would fight. So now we have said that the problems in Afghanistan is not the political problem; it is the arms which exist. We are, we will accept them to be in our government if he accepts to give his arms to the Ministers of Defense. We have no problem however.
· [A questioner asked, As Salaamu `Alaykum wa Rahmatullaahi wa Barakaatuh. Brother, Afghanistan is now supposed to be a Muslim country, Insha Allah. And these statues are just like the statues in Makkah, when Rasoolillah (saws) came to Makkah, and it was the very first thing that he did was to destroy the statues. What is taking us so long? Why aren t they destroyed already? Audience laughs, some say Takbeer]
So, I don t know what to say. We don t have any Buddhists as I told you; we have to look at the problems of the Muslim minorities in some countries. So we do not want to create problems for them, that s why we are still waiting, and we hope that we will resolve this problem.
· [A written question read, What is your opinion about killing the Iranian officers in Heraat in 1998? ]
So, there is this story about seven nine, nine Iranians, one of them was a journalist, and the rest of them were called diplomats. It happened in `98 when we were capturing a city in the north of Afghanistan called Mazar-e-Shareef when we were, we announced before our campaign in liberating that city, we announced that all diplomats of organizations, including the UN, the diplomatic missions, and NGOs to evacuate because of the possible fighting that may happen in the city too. So, all of them evacuated, the United Nations, the NGOs, and even those people who actually bombed them, they also evacuated, so the only people who remained there was some seven, or eight, night Iranians, who were actually not diplomats, who were actually military advisors to their puppets in Afghanistan. So, and we didn t kill them in di! plomatic mission; they were killed on their way to Bamiyan; Bamiyan is another city in central Afghanistan, so they were and we didn t want to kill them; they just died because of the shelling that happened. And we issued an edict, and we declared that we were sorry for what happened. And now the Iranian government has also sent their mission, and when I was coming there, three of their villages were in Afghanistan; they reopened their consulate here and I think they have re-thought their policies now and maybe they will have a new chapter of friendship with us and I hope it will happen.
· [Question asked about how people, especially Muslims, need to be educated about the situation in Afghanistan. He went on further to ask about whether or not he would be under a physical threat if he were to shave his beard and walk into Afghanistan, or if a sister would be under a physical threat if a sister were to wear Hijab according to the Islamic standards, not wearing Burqah.]
You say that all the Muslims, or all the people, must be educated on the situation in Afghanistan. And now I am thinking that first they must be de-educated to try to understand what we are saying. There are not [--], they are really trying how to approach, and you are right, and I agree that you must have Public Relations, in teaching people, or at least, letting them know what we say. But as I told you that we have other priorities. Our priority is to save the children. Our priority is to de-mine our country. Our priority is to reunify our country. Our priority is to stop the foreign! interference. Our priority is to fight the [--] that is already operating in our country. So for us to talk about Public Relations, it is important, but it cannot what would you do if you were in this status? And it is not easy to do Public Relations. You have to spend a lot of money. I will tell you a story of CNN. CNN was in Afghanistan interviewing bin Laden, in `98. You have to be careful in listening to this. I was there, and they asked bin Laden as to what was the thinking about the killing of civilians in Iraq. After three hours of formal conversation, and the camera was rolling. He said, that if all American citizens and if all British citizens are willing, or supporting, to kill all Iraqi civ! ilians, then all American citizens and all British citizens deserve the same thing or to be killed. CNN cut everything. Three-hour conversation was not there, only thing they put was and it was not complete the only clause that they said was, the independent clause of what he said, they said that, all American and British citizens must be killed. This is what came on the air. But he didn t mean this. And I know that all Americans do not support the killing [of] civilians there. Not even a quarter of that. That was impossible. But now what they taught their people was that bin Laden is saying that all American civilians must be killed. That is the story of! media, and the media here is very irresponsible. They are commercialized, and they ll do anything for selling advertisements.
He [the questioner] talked about the beard and the veil. First of all, for all non-Afghans, this rule does not apply. So there are many non-Afghans who are working there; there are actually Americans who are working there in the UN, there are many people from different parts of the world. And they do whatever [--], they don t care. And we don t have a law for them. But Afghanistan is a country that has gone through 23 years of war, and there is still war, and the military is mixed with the people. Then you must have some sort of strict law, in order to insure security and peace in Afghanistan. So, maybe it is ridiculous for you that we ! ask people to grow beards, but this is what, it is in Afghanistan, and the Afghans do leave beard, whether or not you tell them. And it s something natural, and it s something [--]. And regarding the veil, or the Burqas, or the Islamic dress code, that is something that exists in Afghanistan for centuries. And it does exist in Iran, it does exist in Saudi Arabia, it exists in many Islamic countries. It has nothing to do only with Afghanistan. And it does even exist here. So you can t force people not to have Burqas, and we do have that constitution that at this time, women should cover up. For us because our priority is that they should be safe.
· [Questioner asks about what Afghans living in the US can do for Afghanistan. She also gives a brief account of her experience in Afghanistan, when she traveled there recently, and gave proof that schools existed there, and that the situation there is much better, more peaceful than it was six years ago. She traveled alone, all over the country.]
Thank you very much. I m very happy that at least I found a proof!
[Audience laughs]
I m thankful to you [for] what you say, and I really appreciate the emotions you have for your country. I myself, I m 24, and serving my country. I could play football now, and I could even play here, and I could stay in the United States, but I don t do any of those things I serve my country. So I agree that whatever, all those things that exist in Afghanistan, maybe there are many things that we don t want, but they do exist. So we are not a sponsor for that. They did exist for two decade[s]. So the best thing to do for Afghanistan is to have an association of Afghans to raise funds, and the best thing I would say [is to] educate people. Instead of criticism, they can come there! and open a school. They can open a school for girls, for boys. But that would be the best thing. Unfortunately some of our Afghans are sitting in their air-conditioning rooms here, play their TV s, and when they have nothing to do, then they criticize us because we can t make Europe for them. We can do it, we have a lot of problems, but the first thing they should do is to stop harming us. They have to come and help us, in all the sectors. We do need all the Afghans from here. If they really criticize our policies, they should come there and criticize our policies, not from here. So the best thing for ! you is for you people to raise funds, do NOT give it to us, one of you should come there, help the people.
· [Questioner: Do you respect our right to tell you that if you didn t believe in PR, you wouldn t be here right now. [--] Actually I d like to ask you, does your version of Islam preach hate? I don t know, I m asking you; do you believe in the religion of hate? Because I was very disgusted when that lady got up and asked you why don t you blow those idols, because that boy right there (points to a boy in the audience) laughed. MSA Representative interrupts, Please ask your question. Questioner, I m asking you, are you preaching hate? MSA Representative, Is that your question? Questioner, That is the question. He continues to argue.]
Enough? I don t know what to say but you only expressed your emotions. Islam means Peace. First you have to understand. And a peaceful religion will never preach for Hate. And we do not preach for Hate. And you said that if we didn t believe in Public Relations, I wouldn t be here. It s my first time here, and I ve waited for an American Visa for a long time, and I m not used to doing these things. I brought a letter from my leadership that I explained before that I will be submitting to the leader of the administration here, and hoping that they will re-think their policies. So I do believe that, I say that we must believe in Pu! blic Relations because they are very important. But I say that Public Relations needs a lot resources, and at this time we have resources for the [--] for the plight of our people.
[Questioner: I actually agree with you about the western media; they are very biased [--], but looking at people like him (the young boy who laughed) at such a young age&[--]. ]
[Small dispute in the Audience]
[Father of young boy, He is my son, ok, and you have come here to accuse him..[--]. MSA Representatives calm both parties and rest of Audience, and apologizes to audience.]
· [Questioner asks about women being required to have a male escort whenever they go out. She also questions whether or not if she were to go into Afghanistan wearing what she was now (a jilbab and hijab) would she be under any physical threat.]
You [the questioner] said, told me about whether a woman was allowed to go without a male escort. I m here, and my wife is shopping in Kandahar now. So they don t have to be escorted, this is absolutely wrong. Yes, they were, in those cities that we captured first, because that was for their safety. Now, they don t have to. And I don t have any problem with whatever you wear, and women do wear the same thing that you do wear, and they don t have any problems. And I say that those cities, which are close to the frontline and there is military operations going on close, there are thousands of military soldiers of ours, we do ask women to ! avoid the social areas. Now you re not understanding what I mean, but some of our friends here do understand. In a country that is in a war, the military is mixed with the people, and there are certain limitations. So I can t go beyond that, and I say that women does not have to be escorted. I m here now and my wife is shopping maybe in Kandahar.
· [Questioner asks What is Afghanistan s priority in regards to establishing an Islamic state for all Muslims, not just for Afghans? ]
He d like to destroy us.
[Audience laughs]
We have our first headache in Afghanistan, and that s a big headache. We have a full-time job there. If we were worked 24 hours a day, we will hardly ever be able to re-construct an [--] Islamic system in our own country. And we have no intention of going beyond our borders, and neither we can. So, all these people who exist in other countries, or their policies, they have nothing to do with us. We are only concerned about Afghanistan. And please do not try to make assumptions. Ask me questions. I was asked in, I was in Bay Area just yesterday, a j! ournalist asked me, Why do you hate women? And I told him, Why do you beat your wife? And he said, I don t beat my wife. I said, I don t hate women.
[Audience laughs]
So you have to ask me questions. You just make assumptions. You just make an assumption. Like he said, you explain for one hour, for five minutes saying the same thing again and again, you ve made an assumption. You didn t ask me whether a woman must be escorted or not this is an easy question. But if you say, Why are you doing this , Why are you doing... We re not doing it. The question is, here, you don t have to make assumptions.
· [Questioner: My country (Iran) is suffering from drug-trafficking from Afghanistan; you said that you [--] drugs from your area, but how can you explain this contradiction? You have said that you cannot even make a needle, what does it mean..? ]
I would like to answer this question first and then I will not forget. I said Afghanistan produced 75% of all worlds Opium, 75% of all worlds. And we eradicated it last year. And this was announced not only by United Nations, who rejects this? All of them know it was announced by Iranian government [--]. I don t say it was we eradicated five years ago [it was] this year. United Nations announced&
[Questioner: You mean 2001? So that s two months ago??& But our country is still suffering from that?! He continues to argue&]
Please, please try to hear what I m saying.
[Questioner continues to talk and argue, MSA representatives try to calm him down.]
[Questioner goes on, I know, but this is the question I wanted to ask! ...]
My brother, listen to me. You say that your country is still suffering from Opium from Afghanistan. I do not say that we eradicated it five years ago. This year, the United Nations Drug Control Program, announced that there was 0% Opium cultivation; Iran, too, admitted that. So if you don t know that, your problem. New York Times announced this; it was in a New York Times editoral. So if you don t know this, then it s your problem. I do admit that there are still some piles of Opium that exists from the years before the last cultivation that may [have been sent] to your country. But we will admit, that we have, and I told you that, there are missions for us, across Afghanistan, to Iran, to our country, and they are trying to eradicate the already existing Opium; it was not produced this year; it was produced the year before last.
· [Questioner asks whether or not they have asked for a loan from the World Bank or BMF]
Not yet. We have not asked BMF neither the World Bank to help us. But if they do help us, we will no reject it. So we are not asking because we are not being recognized so we can t ask them for loans.
· [Questioner is a Political Scientist and is asking whether or not Bureaucrats and Technocrats are needed in Afghanistan because, according to him, the Taliban are not smart enough, suitable to be governing Afghanistan.]
We never say that we are perfect. The question is, Who could do more than we do? These seven parties? The Communists? Or the King? Who did this? The things that we have done? Who could do more than that? It s very easy to say, to criticize from here, Do this, do this, do that.. But it s very difficult to do that. You said that the Taliban are not Bureaucrats and Technocrats, and we re not going to change that. I m sorry to say, you know what the old king of Afghanistan, he was 88 years old, and he spent seven years living in Rome, he had bought an island there, and now this man wants to come back to Afghanistan and head the government. The old, rotten knucklehead.
[Audience laughs]
So, we were very surprised as to what did he do in 43 years of his government? He didn t do anything. He only knew how to decorate his palace. I m sorry to say this. And now the same man, after 43 years Sorry, 27 years, is willing to go back and govern; he cannot even take a flight back to Afghanistan. He s too weak. So how s he going to? So we do need professionals. We don t say that we are perfect. And I repeat it again, we cannot come here, and ask everybody to come help us. We have asked so many times. Anybody willing to help their country, come and help.&n! bsp; And many people come and ask me, Well, how do we go? &..How did you come here?!
[Audience laughs]
And yeah, go there if women can go there, what is the problem? But if you ask us to give you the government, then that s difficult. So I agree with you that we need Technocrats, but we don t need politicians.
This ends the transcribed version of the lecture by Sayyid Rahmatullah Hashemi. Please distribute it to as many people as you can Insha Allah, as it contains a lot of valuable information and insights; it clears up many misunderstandings that people have today regarding the Taliban. If we can come together to spread this knowledge, perhaps we can alleviate the burdens that Afghanistan is experiencing by creating an awareness of the situation there, and thus bringing forth funds and resources to aid them, bi idhnillaahu ta ala.
Subhaanak-Allaahumma wa bi-Hamdik, Astaghfiruka wa atooboo ilaik
Back To: www.inin.net
Also,those who have heard the talk given by Mulla Muttawakkul in some other university were also spellbound by his erudition & command of the French & English languages.Arabic,farsi,pushto,darri,urdu,& uzbeki are others he excels in.
Please access www.inin.com for a treasure-trove of news sources----the Free,Unbiased,and Balanced ones...like alJazeera!
Happy searchinglet others know too!
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Roving Afghanistan Ambassador Sayyid Rahmatullah Hashemi`s Speech at The University of Southern California on March 10, 2001
Allah says: ``O you who believe! If a rebellious evil person comes to you with a news, verify it, lest you harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful to what you have done.`` (Qur`an 49:6)
Sayyid Rahmatullah Hashemi is the roving Ambassador from Afghanistan who recently visited the US. He has been active in giving lectures on the real situation regarding the Taliban in Afghanistan throughout central and Southern California. The following is the transcribed lecture given by Sayyid Rahmatullah Hashemi at the University Of Southern California on March 10, 2001:
__________________________________________________
Sayyid Rahmatullah Hashemi
I was just coming from [a meeting with] a group of scholars, and the first thing we started there was the statues. And the first thing we started here was also the statues. It s very unfortunate how little we see and how little we know. And it really confuses me, if people really know that little or not. Nobody has seen the problems of Afghanistan; nobody saw their problems before. And the only thing that represents Afghanistan today are the statues.
The problem of Afghanistan was not new. As you know that Afghanistan is called, The Crossroads of Asia. So, we are suffering because of our geo-strategic location. We have suffered in the 18th century, 19th century, and we are still suffering in this century.
We have not attacked the British. We have not attacked the Russians. It was them who attacked us. So the problems in Afghanistan you see is not our creation. That reflects the image of the world. If you don t like the image in the mirror, do not break the mirror; break your face.
The problems in Afghanistan started in 1979. Afghanistan was a peaceful country and it was doing its own job. The Russians, along with their 140,000 troops attacked Afghanistan in the December of 1979, just 21 years ago, stayed there for a decade, killed one and a half million people, maimed one million more people, and six million out of the eighteen million people migrated because of the Russian brutalities. Even today, our children are dying because of the landmines that they planted for us. And nobody knows about this.
After the Russians left during the Russian occupation, on the other side, the American government, the British government, the French, the Chinese, and all of the rest, supported the counter-revolutionaries called the Mujahideen; 7 parties only in Pakistan and 8 parties in Iran who fought the Russian occupation. And after the Russians left, these parties went into Afghanistan. All of them had different ideologies, a lot of weapon[s]. And instead of having a single administration, they fought in Afghanistan. The destruction that they brought was worse than the destruction the Russians brought. 63,000 people were only killed in the capitol, Kabul. Seeing all this chaos, and the complete destruction of our country, and I don t have to forget that after the Soviets left, another million people migrated because of the lawlessness that existed in Afghanistan 7 million people.
So seeing this destruction and lawlessness, a group of students called the Taliban Taliban is the plural word of students in our language; it may be two students in Arabic, but in our language it means students so a group of students started a movement called the Movement of Students. It first started in a village in the southern province of Afghanistan, called Kandahar. It happened when a war-lord, or a commander abducted two minor girls, raped them, and the parents of those girls went to a school and asked the teacher of the school to help them. The teacher of that school, along with his 53 students, finding only 16 guns, went and attacked the base of that commander. After releasing those two girls, they hanged that commander, and so many of their [the commander s] people ! were also hanged. This story was told everywhere; and this was called the terrorist story of the Taliban, or the Students. BBC also quoted this story. Seeing or hearing this story, many other students joined this movement and started disarming the rest of the warlords, who were worse than these. I will not prolong this story so far, this same students movement controls 95% of the country; they captured the capitol, including the four major cities. And only a bunch of those warlords are remaining in the northern corridor of Afghanistan.
So our achievements are as follows. We are in a government for only five years, and the following things that we have done, and many of you may not know:
* The first thing we have done is reunify the fragmented country. Afghanistan was formerly fragmented into five parts. The first thing we have done is to reunify that country. The United Nations, the United States, everybody was confused as to how to reunify that country, and nobody could do it. First thing we have done is to reunify that country. * Second thing we have done, which everybody failed to do, was disarming a population. After dealing [with] the war of the Russians, and the Americans I would say, every Afghan got a Kalashnikov, and even sophisticated weapons such as stinger missiles, and they even got fighter planes and fighter helicopters. So disarming these people was impossible. The United Nations in 1992 passed an appeal asking for 3 billion dollars to re-purchase that arms, to start a process of repurchasing those arms. And suddenly, because of its impracticalibility, that plan never materialized, and everybody forgot about Afghanistan. So the second thing we have done is to disarm 95% of that country. * And the third thing that we have done is to establish a single administration under Afghanistan, which did not exist for 10 years. * And the fourth achievement that we have that is surprising to everybody is that we have eradicated 75% of all worlds Opium cultivation. Afghanistan produced 75% of all worlds Opium. The drug, you know that Opium? The Narcotics business? And last year we issued an edict asking the people to stop growing Opium, and this year, the United Nations Drug Control Program, UNDCP, and their head, [Mr.] Barnard F., proudly announced that there was 0% of Opium cultivation. Not at all. And this was not a good news for UN itself because many of them lost their jobs. In the UNDCP, 700 so called experts were working there and they got their salaries and they! never went into Afghanistan. So when we issued this edict, I know that they were not happy. And this year they lost their jobs. And this was our fourth achievement. * The fifth achievement that we have, but it s a little controversial, some of our friends will not know is the restoration of Human rights. Now, YOU may think that is a violation of Human Rights, but from OUR perspective that is the restoration of Human Rights. Because usually [among] the fundamental rights of a human being is the right to Live. Before us, nobody could live peacefully in Afghanistan. So the first thing we have done, begun [to give] to the people is a secure and peaceful life. The second major thing that we have restored is to give them free and fair justice; you don t have to buy justice, unlike here. You will have justice freely. And you have criticized us for violating women s rights; now, who knows what happened before us. Only some symbolic schools, or symbolic posts were given to some women in the ministry, and that was called the restoration of women s rights. I can see some Afghans living here, and they will agree with me, that in the rural areas of Afghanistan, women were used as animals. They were SOLD actually. The first thing we have done is to give the self-determination to women, and it happened not in the history of Afghanistan. Throughout the history of Afghanistan, during all the so-called civilized kings or whatever, they didn t give this right to women, so women were sold. ! They didn t have the right to select their husbands, or to reject their husbands. First thing we have done is to let them choose their future. And you will know that throughout south Asia, women are killed under the title of honor killings. It happens when a woman s relation is detected with a man, whether or not the relation was sexual, they re both killed. But now this is not happening in our country. And the third thing that happened only in Afghanistan, was women were exchanged as gifts; this was not something religious; this was something cultural. When two tribal tribes were fighting among themselves, then in order to get their tribal issue reconciliated, they would exchange women, and then [they]! would make, or announce reconciliation. And this has been stopped. If we [had to give] fundamental rights of woman, we had to start from zero; we couldn t jump in the middle. Now you ve asked me about the rights of women s education and the rights of women s work. Unlike what is said here, women do work in Afghanistan. You re right that until 1997 I mean, in 1996 when we captured the capitol Kabul, we did ask women to stay home. It didn t mean that we wanted them to stay at home forever, but nobody listened to us. We said that there is no law, and there is no order, and have to stay at home. They were raped before us, ever! yday. So, after we disarmed the people, and after we brought law and order, and now women are working. You are right that women are not working in the ministry of defense, like here. We don t want our women to be fighter pilot[s], or to be used as objects of decoration for advertisements. But they do work. They work in the Ministry of Health, Interior, Ministry of Education, Ministry of Social Affairs, and so on. So, and we don t have any problem with women s education. We have said that we want education, and we will have education whether or not we are under anybody s pressure, because that is part of our belief. We are ordered to do that. When we say that there should be segregated schools, it does not mean that we don t want our women to be educated. It is true that we are against co-education; but it is not true that we are against women s education. We do have schools even now, but the problem is the resources. We cannot expand these programs. Before, our government there were numerous curriculums that were going on; there were curriculums which preached the king for the kings, and there were curriculums which preached for the communists, and there were curriculums from all these seven parties [the previously mentioned]. So, the Students were confused as to what to study, and the first we have done today is to unify that curriculum, and that s goin! g on. But we are criticized, and we say that instead of criticism, if you just help us once, that will make a difference. Because criticism will not make a difference. If you [talk?] criticism from New York, thousands of miles away, we don t care. But if you come there and help us, we do care. So actually there are more girls students studying in the faculty of medical sciences than boys are. This is not me who is saying this, it is the United Nations who has announced this. Recently we reopened the faculty of medical science in all major cities of Afghanistan and in Kandahar, there are more girl students than boys. ! But they are segregated. And the Swedish committees have also established schools for girls. I know they are not enough, but that s what we can do. So, that is what I say that we have restored. I don t say we are 100% perfect, and nobody will say that they are 100% perfect. We do have shortcomings, and we do need to amend our policies. But we can t do everything over night. * And the sixth problem, that we are is it sixth or seventh? Seventh I think the seventh problem that we are accused of is Terrorism, or the existence of terrorists in Afghanistan. And for Americans terrorism or terrorist means only bin Laden. Now you will not know that Afghanistan, or bin Laden was in Afghanistan 17 years before even we existed. Bin Laden was in Afghanistan, fought the Soviet Union, and Mr. Ronald Reagan, the president of America in that time, and Dick, Mr. Dick Chaney called such people freedom fighters or the Heroes of Independence, because they were fighting for their cause. So Osama bin Laden was one of those guys who was instigated by such media reports, so in that provocation by these countries to go to Afghanista! n and fight the Soviets there. And now when the Soviet Union is fragmented, such people were not needed anymore, and they were transformed into terrorists from heroes to terrorists. So exactly like Mr. Yassir Arafat was transformed from a terrorist to a hero. So we don t know as to what is the definition of Terrorism. We do regret that the terrorists were actually horrific acts and they were terrorist acts. But if they are terrorist acts, what is the difference between those terrorist acts and the attacks on Afghanistan when in 1998 attacks, cruise missile attacks on Afghanistan. Neither of the two were declared and both of them killed civilians. So we are confused as! to what is the definition of Terrorism. If it means killing civilians blindly, both of them killed civilians blindly. And the fact is, I m not going to be offensive or rude, or rude about this, I m going to be frank. And I think it s sometimes honest to be rude. If the United States that it has acted for its defense, lets see. The United States government tried to kill a man without even giving him a fair trial. In 1998, they just sent cruise missiles into Afghanistan and they announced that they were trying to kill Osama bin Laden. We didn t know Osama bin Laden then. I didn t know him; he was just a simple man. So we were all shocked. I was one of those men who was sitting at home at night, I was called for an immediate council meeting and we all were told the United States have attacked Afghanistan. With 75 cruise missiles and trying to kill one man. And they missed that man; killed 19 other students and never apologized for those killings. So what would you do if you were in our status; if we were to go and send 75 cruise missiles into the United States and say that we were going to kill a man that we thought not believed that we thought was responsible for our embassy, and we missed that man, and we killed 19 other Americans what would the United States do? An instant declaration of war. But we we! re polite. We didn t declare war. We had a lot of problems at home; we didn t want further problem[s]. And since then, we are very open-minded on this issue. We have said, that if really this man is involved in the Kenya/Tanzania acts, if anybody can give us proof or evidence about his involvement in these horrific acts, we will punish him. Nobody gave us evidence. We put him on trial for 45 days and nobody gave us any kind of evidence. The fact is that the United States told us they did not believe in our judicial system. We were surprised as to what kind of judicial system they have?! They showed us as to what they are doing to the people they just tried to kill a man without even giving him a fair trial, even if one of us is a criminal here, the police is not going to blow his house, he must go to a court first. So, that was rejected. Our first proposal, despite all these things, was rejected. They said they will not believe in our judicial system, and we must give him to New York. The second proposal that we gave after the rejection of this first proposal we gave was, we are ready to accept an international monitoring group to come into Afghanistan and monitor this man s activities in Afghanistan. So that he does nothing. Even that he has no telecommunications [--]. That proposal was also rejected. And the third proposal we gave, six months ago, was that we were ready, that we were ready to try or accept a third Islamic country s decision, or the trial of [--] in a third Islamic country, with consent of Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan that was also rejected. So we don t know, as to what is the problem behind. If bin Laden was the only issue, we are still very open minded, and for the fourth time, I m here, with a letter from my leadership that I m going to submit to the state department hoping that they will resolve the problem. But I don t think so [that] they ll solve the problem. Because we think, and I personally think now that maybe the United States is looking for a Boogy Man always. Remember what Gorbachev said? He said, that he s going to do the worst thing ever to the United States. And everybody thought that he s going to blow the United States with nuclear weapon[s]. But he said, I m going to remove their enemy. And then he fragmented Soviet Union. And he was right. After he fragmented Soviet Union, a lot of people lost their jobs in the Pentagon, in the CIA, and the FBI, because they were not needed anymore. So we think that maybe these guys are looking for a Boogy Man now. Maybe they want to justify their annual budget, maybe they want to make their citizens feel that they are still needed to defend them. Afghanistan is not a terrorist state; we cannot even make a needle. How are we going to be a terrorist state? How are we going to be a threat to the world? If the world terrorism is really derived from the word terror , then there are countries making weapons of mass destruction, countries making nuclear weapons, forest deforestation, soil, air, and water pollution they are terrorist states; we are not. We cannot even make a needle; how are we going to be a threat to the world? So as I said in the beginning, the situation in Afghanistan is not our creation. The situation in Afghanistan reflects the world s image. If you don t like the image in the mirror, do not break the mirror; break your face.
Now, we are under sanctions. And the sanctions have caused a lot of problems, despite that we are going under so many problems, the 23 years of continuous war, the total destruction of our infrastructure, and the problem of refugees, and the problem of land mines in our agricultural lands, all of a sudden the United Nations, with the provocation of Russia, is imposing sanctions on Afghanistan. And the sanctions have been approved; we are under sanctions. Several hundred children died a month ago, here it is (holds up pamphlet). Seven hundred children died because of malnutrition and the severe cold weather. Nobody even talked about that. Everybody knows about t! he statues. For us, we are surprised, that the world is destroying our future with economic sanctions, then they have no right to worry about our past. Everybody is saying that they are destroying their heritage they don t have any right to talk about that. They are destroying the future of our children with economic sanctions, how are they going to justify talking about our past? I know it s not rational and logical to blow the statues for, for retaliation of economic sanctions. But this is how it is. I called, after this announcements, I called my headquarters, and I found out, I was really confused, I asked them, why are they going to blow the statues, and I talked to the head of the council of scholars of people, who had actually decided this, h! e told me that UNESCO and NGO from Sweden, or from one of these Scandinavian countries Norway, Sweden, one of these they had actually come, with a project of rebuilding the face of these statues, which have worn by rain. So the council of people had told them to spend that money in saving the lives of these children, instead of spending that money to [restore these] statues. And these guys said that, No, this money is only for the statues. And the people were really pissed off. They said that, If you don t care about our children, we are going to blow those statues.
[Person from the Audience yells, Takbeer! ]
[Audience responds, Allahu Akbar! ]
I don t say that he s right or wrong, the decision is yours. Think of yourself. If you are in such a problem, what would you do? If your children are dying in front of your eyes, and you are under sanctions, and then the same people who have imposed sanctions and are coming and building statues here? What will you do? So, I talked to my headquarters today, and they said that the statues have not been blown so far. But the people are so angry. They are really angry, they want to blow them. And there is Kofi Annan is going, you know Kofi Annan, the Secretary General o! f United Nations? He went to [--], to Pakistan, and he said he s going to meet our representative there. This man never bothered to enter, to talk about these children, he never bothered himself to talk about six million refugees, and he never talked about [the] poverty of Afghanistan. He only goes to that region because of these statues. And the OIC is also, they ve also sent a mission to go to Kabul and talk about those statues. So we re really confused. That the world is really caring about the statues, and then they don t care about human beings. I don t say we have to retaliate in blowing the statues; we have not done that. But if we were to destroy those statues! , we would have destroyed them three years before now, because we captured those areas those areas three years before now. We didn t want to blow them. And now the situation has come, and it s not our decision. This is the decision of the scholars and the people. And that is the decision has been approved by the Supreme Court. We cannot reject this decision. So these guys are there, the OIC and some, even I think some ministers from different countries are there to save the lives of these statutes. I think they will not be blown because of the concerns of these people. But it is really, really ridiculous. These people do no! t care about children, about people who are dying there, about the foreign interference that still exists, they only care about the statues. And I m sure they don t care about our heritage. They don t care about our heritage; they only care about their picnic site one time. Maybe they ll have a good picnic site there, seeing those statues. They don t care about our heritage, I m sure. If they were to care about our past, they wouldn t destroy our future. And I m sure these sanctions which are imposed on our government will never change us, because for us, our ideology is everything. To try to change our ideology with economic sanctions will never work. It may work i! n the United States, where the economy is everything, but for us, our ideology is everything. [--] And we believe that it is better to die for something than to live for nothing.
We are still open-minded. We are still, we have still opened our doors for negotiations, but our offices are closed everywhere our office was closed in New York a week ago. They are trying to shut our offices in other countries, trying to isolate us, and they don t know that isolation is counter-productive. Because they don t have experts; the only experts they have are those people who speak English. They don t even speak the language. Those experts who are advising the sanctions, or the sanction committee have not even been to Afghanistan. And they are setting benchmarks for us to achieve.
I m prolonging this speech, I m sorry, because I have been repeating it everywhere, so I may have left some thing in it, and I will let you ask me questions.
[Applause from Audience]
* * *Important Note: What follows are some of the answers to some of the questions that were asked during the Question and Answer session. Most of the questions were not included due to the poor recording. Apologies for the inconvenience. * * *
Br. Sayyid Rahmatullah Hashemi:
· [A questioner asks about the statement he heard on the radio from the Afghan former minister (Mutawakkil) confirming that the statues have been destroyed, and further adds, Does that mean the statues of Hindus and Sikhs will also be destroyed? He further asked that since the destruction of the statues was done in retaliation, Was it really saving the children? (it was asked in a provocative manner)]
Thank you very much and unfortunately again, the first question is the statues. So the statues as I told you, have not been destroyed so far. And I have contacted my headquarters there, and if they were destroyed, then people would not bother going there; as I told you Kofi Annan is there, OIC is there, and our foreign minister is there. And for us, as he [the questioner] said that Mutawakkil has said that [that the statues have been destroyed], I don t think he has said that they are destroyed. He said that [that the statues have not been destroyed]. And I don t reject this. They raised an edict which says these [the statues] should be! blown. And we are not against Buddhists; absolutely wrong. We are not against any religion. There are Hindus living in Afghanistan; there are different religions. There is one man who is a Jew living in Afghanistan.
[Audience laughs]
So we are not against any religion. And there is no Buddhist in Afghanistan, this I can say. In our religion, if anything, you can leave anything until it is not harmful to you. If these Buddhas were not harmful to us, so far. But now when the money is going to Buddhas reconstruction, and the children are dying next door, we think it s harmful now. Not we think, the people think. And I told you that this decision is taken by the council of scholars and the council of people. And has been approved by the Supreme Court. And the media is saying everywhere that it is an edict by our leadership. Hav! e you ever seen our leadership on TV? Have you ever seen or heard him (Mullah Umar) on international radio? He has never been on radio, so it s absolutely wrong that we issued an edict. I do agree that there is an edict, but by the council of people and the scholars, and has been approved by the Supreme Court, but has not been implemented so far. Is it enough? You know, really, I am asked so much about these statues that I have a headache now. If I go back to Afghanistan, I will blow them.
[Audience laughs]
· [Questioner asks about the infighting between Mujahideens now. He asks, in the past we knew that there was one common enemy (the Russians) and it was easy to support the Mujahideen but now it s the groups of Mujahideens fighting between each other. How do you explain this?]
They [the different Mujahideen groups] killed so many people, and there were so many problem[s]. And that s why we started our movement. It s all in these people. They didn t fight for Shari ah, or they didn t fight for Afghanistan, they only fought for their future post in power. So we, as I told you that, we finished that. And only now, we have one opposition headed by Ahmed Shah Masood. And we don t have much problems with him. We had talks with his representative in Ashkabad in Ramadhaan this year, and I was there. So, we say that he failed in bringing about a constitution, a unified gove! rnment; he could not even unify the capitol, Kabul. So we did all these things. So we asked him, despite that he controls nothing, except 5% in the mountains, and we have said we are still open-minded. We agree that he should have a post, because he has fought the Russians. And in `98, we agreed on a joint government; actually, I was also there, so we agreed in giving them three ministries and accepting their judicial system merging with our judicial system, and giving them three or four district or provincial governors or something like that. And they agreed on that. Our, on our part, we asked them to give us their weapons, because the problem in Afghanistan is not political differences. The problem in Afghanis! tan is the weapons. Everybody has had weapons, and now if they are fighting us, it is not because of our very much ideological differences; it s because of weapons. There were a lot of weapons before, and you know, the Afghans will know that so many times they tried to have one government and then after a week or so, they fought, because all of them got different defense ministries, and they would fight. So now we have said that the problems in Afghanistan is not the political problem; it is the arms which exist. We are, we will accept them to be in our government if he accepts to give his arms to the Ministers of Defense. We have no problem however.
· [A questioner asked, As Salaamu `Alaykum wa Rahmatullaahi wa Barakaatuh. Brother, Afghanistan is now supposed to be a Muslim country, Insha Allah. And these statues are just like the statues in Makkah, when Rasoolillah (saws) came to Makkah, and it was the very first thing that he did was to destroy the statues. What is taking us so long? Why aren t they destroyed already? Audience laughs, some say Takbeer]
So, I don t know what to say. We don t have any Buddhists as I told you; we have to look at the problems of the Muslim minorities in some countries. So we do not want to create problems for them, that s why we are still waiting, and we hope that we will resolve this problem.
· [A written question read, What is your opinion about killing the Iranian officers in Heraat in 1998? ]
So, there is this story about seven nine, nine Iranians, one of them was a journalist, and the rest of them were called diplomats. It happened in `98 when we were capturing a city in the north of Afghanistan called Mazar-e-Shareef when we were, we announced before our campaign in liberating that city, we announced that all diplomats of organizations, including the UN, the diplomatic missions, and NGOs to evacuate because of the possible fighting that may happen in the city too. So, all of them evacuated, the United Nations, the NGOs, and even those people who actually bombed them, they also evacuated, so the only people who remained there was some seven, or eight, night Iranians, who were actually not diplomats, who were actually military advisors to their puppets in Afghanistan. So, and we didn t kill them in di! plomatic mission; they were killed on their way to Bamiyan; Bamiyan is another city in central Afghanistan, so they were and we didn t want to kill them; they just died because of the shelling that happened. And we issued an edict, and we declared that we were sorry for what happened. And now the Iranian government has also sent their mission, and when I was coming there, three of their villages were in Afghanistan; they reopened their consulate here and I think they have re-thought their policies now and maybe they will have a new chapter of friendship with us and I hope it will happen.
· [Question asked about how people, especially Muslims, need to be educated about the situation in Afghanistan. He went on further to ask about whether or not he would be under a physical threat if he were to shave his beard and walk into Afghanistan, or if a sister would be under a physical threat if a sister were to wear Hijab according to the Islamic standards, not wearing Burqah.]
You say that all the Muslims, or all the people, must be educated on the situation in Afghanistan. And now I am thinking that first they must be de-educated to try to understand what we are saying. There are not [--], they are really trying how to approach, and you are right, and I agree that you must have Public Relations, in teaching people, or at least, letting them know what we say. But as I told you that we have other priorities. Our priority is to save the children. Our priority is to de-mine our country. Our priority is to reunify our country. Our priority is to stop the foreign! interference. Our priority is to fight the [--] that is already operating in our country. So for us to talk about Public Relations, it is important, but it cannot what would you do if you were in this status? And it is not easy to do Public Relations. You have to spend a lot of money. I will tell you a story of CNN. CNN was in Afghanistan interviewing bin Laden, in `98. You have to be careful in listening to this. I was there, and they asked bin Laden as to what was the thinking about the killing of civilians in Iraq. After three hours of formal conversation, and the camera was rolling. He said, that if all American citizens and if all British citizens are willing, or supporting, to kill all Iraqi civ! ilians, then all American citizens and all British citizens deserve the same thing or to be killed. CNN cut everything. Three-hour conversation was not there, only thing they put was and it was not complete the only clause that they said was, the independent clause of what he said, they said that, all American and British citizens must be killed. This is what came on the air. But he didn t mean this. And I know that all Americans do not support the killing [of] civilians there. Not even a quarter of that. That was impossible. But now what they taught their people was that bin Laden is saying that all American civilians must be killed. That is the story of! media, and the media here is very irresponsible. They are commercialized, and they ll do anything for selling advertisements.
He [the questioner] talked about the beard and the veil. First of all, for all non-Afghans, this rule does not apply. So there are many non-Afghans who are working there; there are actually Americans who are working there in the UN, there are many people from different parts of the world. And they do whatever [--], they don t care. And we don t have a law for them. But Afghanistan is a country that has gone through 23 years of war, and there is still war, and the military is mixed with the people. Then you must have some sort of strict law, in order to insure security and peace in Afghanistan. So, maybe it is ridiculous for you that we ! ask people to grow beards, but this is what, it is in Afghanistan, and the Afghans do leave beard, whether or not you tell them. And it s something natural, and it s something [--]. And regarding the veil, or the Burqas, or the Islamic dress code, that is something that exists in Afghanistan for centuries. And it does exist in Iran, it does exist in Saudi Arabia, it exists in many Islamic countries. It has nothing to do only with Afghanistan. And it does even exist here. So you can t force people not to have Burqas, and we do have that constitution that at this time, women should cover up. For us because our priority is that they should be safe.
· [Questioner asks about what Afghans living in the US can do for Afghanistan. She also gives a brief account of her experience in Afghanistan, when she traveled there recently, and gave proof that schools existed there, and that the situation there is much better, more peaceful than it was six years ago. She traveled alone, all over the country.]
Thank you very much. I m very happy that at least I found a proof!
[Audience laughs]
I m thankful to you [for] what you say, and I really appreciate the emotions you have for your country. I myself, I m 24, and serving my country. I could play football now, and I could even play here, and I could stay in the United States, but I don t do any of those things I serve my country. So I agree that whatever, all those things that exist in Afghanistan, maybe there are many things that we don t want, but they do exist. So we are not a sponsor for that. They did exist for two decade[s]. So the best thing to do for Afghanistan is to have an association of Afghans to raise funds, and the best thing I would say [is to] educate people. Instead of criticism, they can come there! and open a school. They can open a school for girls, for boys. But that would be the best thing. Unfortunately some of our Afghans are sitting in their air-conditioning rooms here, play their TV s, and when they have nothing to do, then they criticize us because we can t make Europe for them. We can do it, we have a lot of problems, but the first thing they should do is to stop harming us. They have to come and help us, in all the sectors. We do need all the Afghans from here. If they really criticize our policies, they should come there and criticize our policies, not from here. So the best thing for ! you is for you people to raise funds, do NOT give it to us, one of you should come there, help the people.
· [Questioner: Do you respect our right to tell you that if you didn t believe in PR, you wouldn t be here right now. [--] Actually I d like to ask you, does your version of Islam preach hate? I don t know, I m asking you; do you believe in the religion of hate? Because I was very disgusted when that lady got up and asked you why don t you blow those idols, because that boy right there (points to a boy in the audience) laughed. MSA Representative interrupts, Please ask your question. Questioner, I m asking you, are you preaching hate? MSA Representative, Is that your question? Questioner, That is the question. He continues to argue.]
Enough? I don t know what to say but you only expressed your emotions. Islam means Peace. First you have to understand. And a peaceful religion will never preach for Hate. And we do not preach for Hate. And you said that if we didn t believe in Public Relations, I wouldn t be here. It s my first time here, and I ve waited for an American Visa for a long time, and I m not used to doing these things. I brought a letter from my leadership that I explained before that I will be submitting to the leader of the administration here, and hoping that they will re-think their policies. So I do believe that, I say that we must believe in Pu! blic Relations because they are very important. But I say that Public Relations needs a lot resources, and at this time we have resources for the [--] for the plight of our people.
[Questioner: I actually agree with you about the western media; they are very biased [--], but looking at people like him (the young boy who laughed) at such a young age&[--]. ]
[Small dispute in the Audience]
[Father of young boy, He is my son, ok, and you have come here to accuse him..[--]. MSA Representatives calm both parties and rest of Audience, and apologizes to audience.]
· [Questioner asks about women being required to have a male escort whenever they go out. She also questions whether or not if she were to go into Afghanistan wearing what she was now (a jilbab and hijab) would she be under any physical threat.]
You [the questioner] said, told me about whether a woman was allowed to go without a male escort. I m here, and my wife is shopping in Kandahar now. So they don t have to be escorted, this is absolutely wrong. Yes, they were, in those cities that we captured first, because that was for their safety. Now, they don t have to. And I don t have any problem with whatever you wear, and women do wear the same thing that you do wear, and they don t have any problems. And I say that those cities, which are close to the frontline and there is military operations going on close, there are thousands of military soldiers of ours, we do ask women to ! avoid the social areas. Now you re not understanding what I mean, but some of our friends here do understand. In a country that is in a war, the military is mixed with the people, and there are certain limitations. So I can t go beyond that, and I say that women does not have to be escorted. I m here now and my wife is shopping maybe in Kandahar.
· [Questioner asks What is Afghanistan s priority in regards to establishing an Islamic state for all Muslims, not just for Afghans? ]
He d like to destroy us.
[Audience laughs]
We have our first headache in Afghanistan, and that s a big headache. We have a full-time job there. If we were worked 24 hours a day, we will hardly ever be able to re-construct an [--] Islamic system in our own country. And we have no intention of going beyond our borders, and neither we can. So, all these people who exist in other countries, or their policies, they have nothing to do with us. We are only concerned about Afghanistan. And please do not try to make assumptions. Ask me questions. I was asked in, I was in Bay Area just yesterday, a j! ournalist asked me, Why do you hate women? And I told him, Why do you beat your wife? And he said, I don t beat my wife. I said, I don t hate women.
[Audience laughs]
So you have to ask me questions. You just make assumptions. You just make an assumption. Like he said, you explain for one hour, for five minutes saying the same thing again and again, you ve made an assumption. You didn t ask me whether a woman must be escorted or not this is an easy question. But if you say, Why are you doing this , Why are you doing... We re not doing it. The question is, here, you don t have to make assumptions.
· [Questioner: My country (Iran) is suffering from drug-trafficking from Afghanistan; you said that you [--] drugs from your area, but how can you explain this contradiction? You have said that you cannot even make a needle, what does it mean..? ]
I would like to answer this question first and then I will not forget. I said Afghanistan produced 75% of all worlds Opium, 75% of all worlds. And we eradicated it last year. And this was announced not only by United Nations, who rejects this? All of them know it was announced by Iranian government [--]. I don t say it was we eradicated five years ago [it was] this year. United Nations announced&
[Questioner: You mean 2001? So that s two months ago??& But our country is still suffering from that?! He continues to argue&]
Please, please try to hear what I m saying.
[Questioner continues to talk and argue, MSA representatives try to calm him down.]
[Questioner goes on, I know, but this is the question I wanted to ask! ...]
My brother, listen to me. You say that your country is still suffering from Opium from Afghanistan. I do not say that we eradicated it five years ago. This year, the United Nations Drug Control Program, announced that there was 0% Opium cultivation; Iran, too, admitted that. So if you don t know that, your problem. New York Times announced this; it was in a New York Times editoral. So if you don t know this, then it s your problem. I do admit that there are still some piles of Opium that exists from the years before the last cultivation that may [have been sent] to your country. But we will admit, that we have, and I told you that, there are missions for us, across Afghanistan, to Iran, to our country, and they are trying to eradicate the already existing Opium; it was not produced this year; it was produced the year before last.
· [Questioner asks whether or not they have asked for a loan from the World Bank or BMF]
Not yet. We have not asked BMF neither the World Bank to help us. But if they do help us, we will no reject it. So we are not asking because we are not being recognized so we can t ask them for loans.
· [Questioner is a Political Scientist and is asking whether or not Bureaucrats and Technocrats are needed in Afghanistan because, according to him, the Taliban are not smart enough, suitable to be governing Afghanistan.]
We never say that we are perfect. The question is, Who could do more than we do? These seven parties? The Communists? Or the King? Who did this? The things that we have done? Who could do more than that? It s very easy to say, to criticize from here, Do this, do this, do that.. But it s very difficult to do that. You said that the Taliban are not Bureaucrats and Technocrats, and we re not going to change that. I m sorry to say, you know what the old king of Afghanistan, he was 88 years old, and he spent seven years living in Rome, he had bought an island there, and now this man wants to come back to Afghanistan and head the government. The old, rotten knucklehead.
[Audience laughs]
So, we were very surprised as to what did he do in 43 years of his government? He didn t do anything. He only knew how to decorate his palace. I m sorry to say this. And now the same man, after 43 years Sorry, 27 years, is willing to go back and govern; he cannot even take a flight back to Afghanistan. He s too weak. So how s he going to? So we do need professionals. We don t say that we are perfect. And I repeat it again, we cannot come here, and ask everybody to come help us. We have asked so many times. Anybody willing to help their country, come and help.&n! bsp; And many people come and ask me, Well, how do we go? &..How did you come here?!
[Audience laughs]
And yeah, go there if women can go there, what is the problem? But if you ask us to give you the government, then that s difficult. So I agree with you that we need Technocrats, but we don t need politicians.
This ends the transcribed version of the lecture by Sayyid Rahmatullah Hashemi. Please distribute it to as many people as you can Insha Allah, as it contains a lot of valuable information and insights; it clears up many misunderstandings that people have today regarding the Taliban. If we can come together to spread this knowledge, perhaps we can alleviate the burdens that Afghanistan is experiencing by creating an awareness of the situation there, and thus bringing forth funds and resources to aid them, bi idhnillaahu ta ala.
Subhaanak-Allaahumma wa bi-Hamdik, Astaghfiruka wa atooboo ilaik
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#102 Posted by Trillium on October 27, 2001 10:25:18 am
Zahra
You indeed are right. Pardon my broad brush. I have fine ones as well. I felt I made a difference. I knew I could influence a few and did. Despite the behaviors at the int. schools, there`s a sweetness among Pakistani kids I miss deeply. There`s a sweetness in Pakistan itself I miss as well. I couldn`t stay away from the bazaars and tea stalls. I was obsessed with turning every stone I could find and talking to the people. It drove my wife crazy. When I started grabbing local kids out of dumpsters and off the street to put in government schools my school administrators started going crazy. After two years other teachers began to notice and help with uniforms, supplies etc, eventually began taking on other poor kids as well. I understand the tradition has continued after we left and the kids remain in schools. We educated mostly girls who would eventually educate their own, and that tradition goes on as well. Four years. God, I really miss it all, except of course the things I mentioned in `Letter Home`. It was the blatant corruption that pissed me off. I quit fighting it when I realized no one else was fighting it and came home. I`m angry. My heart is still there.
Thanks for seeing through the anger.
You indeed are right. Pardon my broad brush. I have fine ones as well. I felt I made a difference. I knew I could influence a few and did. Despite the behaviors at the int. schools, there`s a sweetness among Pakistani kids I miss deeply. There`s a sweetness in Pakistan itself I miss as well. I couldn`t stay away from the bazaars and tea stalls. I was obsessed with turning every stone I could find and talking to the people. It drove my wife crazy. When I started grabbing local kids out of dumpsters and off the street to put in government schools my school administrators started going crazy. After two years other teachers began to notice and help with uniforms, supplies etc, eventually began taking on other poor kids as well. I understand the tradition has continued after we left and the kids remain in schools. We educated mostly girls who would eventually educate their own, and that tradition goes on as well. Four years. God, I really miss it all, except of course the things I mentioned in `Letter Home`. It was the blatant corruption that pissed me off. I quit fighting it when I realized no one else was fighting it and came home. I`m angry. My heart is still there.
Thanks for seeing through the anger.
#99 Posted by Zahra on October 26, 2001 3:47:36 pm
Sheheryar:
I read the interview out of curiosity as few of my cousin`s kids have attended the school. I think the interviewee was more into photography than giving her perspective on students. Probably, you wanted to focus the readers on learning more on photography and how hard it was to take a picture of a female in that setting.
By the way, it was an interesting interview and I think the best part was, the style.
Terry Burns:
Thanks for sharing your experience. I will just call it an experience. It`s surprising to read that you do/did not have a diverse student community. In your class, if there were some, who were rude, then there should have been some, who were polite. If there were a few crackpots out there, then there should have been some intelligent ones around too.
I have taught only for one semester at LCAS[Lahore College Of Arts and Sciences]to A-Levels, after my undergrad and I ran into a few scenarios that were eye-opening for me as well; someone, who was born and bred on that soil. But I had some very interesting and postive observations too. And the observations were of students, who needed guidance and received it, as part of the student-teacher relationship.
Somehow I feel that your letter smells of a certain mentality that dwells on ``If you do not ask, you are never told`` concept. There is nothing wrong with it. Also I do not want to assume that`s what you do to your students. But being a teacher, you owe something else aside from teaching English to them. If I were you, I would have assisted those students whose behavior was demeaning and ridiculous. You never gave your take on the issues that you handled. You only depicted a very pessimistic scenario. I am not willing to buy the intensity of the portrayed pessimism! But by saying that, I am not negating the weight of your experiences.
- rest later,
I read the interview out of curiosity as few of my cousin`s kids have attended the school. I think the interviewee was more into photography than giving her perspective on students. Probably, you wanted to focus the readers on learning more on photography and how hard it was to take a picture of a female in that setting.
By the way, it was an interesting interview and I think the best part was, the style.
Terry Burns:
Thanks for sharing your experience. I will just call it an experience. It`s surprising to read that you do/did not have a diverse student community. In your class, if there were some, who were rude, then there should have been some, who were polite. If there were a few crackpots out there, then there should have been some intelligent ones around too.
I have taught only for one semester at LCAS[Lahore College Of Arts and Sciences]to A-Levels, after my undergrad and I ran into a few scenarios that were eye-opening for me as well; someone, who was born and bred on that soil. But I had some very interesting and postive observations too. And the observations were of students, who needed guidance and received it, as part of the student-teacher relationship.
Somehow I feel that your letter smells of a certain mentality that dwells on ``If you do not ask, you are never told`` concept. There is nothing wrong with it. Also I do not want to assume that`s what you do to your students. But being a teacher, you owe something else aside from teaching English to them. If I were you, I would have assisted those students whose behavior was demeaning and ridiculous. You never gave your take on the issues that you handled. You only depicted a very pessimistic scenario. I am not willing to buy the intensity of the portrayed pessimism! But by saying that, I am not negating the weight of your experiences.
- rest later,
#98 Posted by Trillium on October 26, 2001 3:39:30 pm
``There is no mud without rain.`` Kashmiri proverb
Sarwar
Shame on who? I`m sick of this lame argument. Pakistan has repeatedly sold its soul to many devils, including America. It`s corruptible. It has a price. Shame on who? It seems Pakistan has always required a leader at whom they can grumble and passively blame for their lot. Musharraf? What about all the other `generals`? NOW Pakistan takes to the streets - in minority fundoes. Natives Americans say it best: ``Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me.``
Sarwar
Shame on who? I`m sick of this lame argument. Pakistan has repeatedly sold its soul to many devils, including America. It`s corruptible. It has a price. Shame on who? It seems Pakistan has always required a leader at whom they can grumble and passively blame for their lot. Musharraf? What about all the other `generals`? NOW Pakistan takes to the streets - in minority fundoes. Natives Americans say it best: ``Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me.``
#97 Posted by tahmed321 on October 26, 2001 2:03:29 pm
Urstruly #91 ``I consider a bigot and a stereotyper an honest person, honest than rest of us all, because he has moral courage to speak his mind. ``
Your statement above proves the following:
a. You think it is OK to be a bigot and a stereotyper. Here is news: This is the view of a sick mind. Normal people think it is NOT OK to be a bigot and a stereotyper.
b. You think you are being honest and morally courageous in writing anonymously. Here is news: It does not require any moral courage to express your feelings anonymously or when the object of your bigotry cannot do anything about it.
Conclusion: You have a sick mind and you are incapable of understanding that normal people do not suffer from the hatreds as you do.
You continue:
``So when I make fun of them (hindus)``
This proves:
(c) You think you are making fun of hindus. Here is news: You are making fun of your own self.
You continue ``or whatever I do to them``
This proves:
(d) You confuse speech with action: You can say what you like - try ``doing`` something to a hindu in real life and you will probably get a punch in the nose (assuming you are dumb enough to pick someone bigger than you); or charged with assault (if you are dumb enough to pick someone smaller than you).
You write: ``at least they (your posts) get noticed.``
This proves the following:
e. You have a great need to be noticed.
I am sorry if the above seem insulting or if I seem facetious, but I honestly think you have some serious problems that you need to reflect upon.
Your statement above proves the following:
a. You think it is OK to be a bigot and a stereotyper. Here is news: This is the view of a sick mind. Normal people think it is NOT OK to be a bigot and a stereotyper.
b. You think you are being honest and morally courageous in writing anonymously. Here is news: It does not require any moral courage to express your feelings anonymously or when the object of your bigotry cannot do anything about it.
Conclusion: You have a sick mind and you are incapable of understanding that normal people do not suffer from the hatreds as you do.
You continue:
``So when I make fun of them (hindus)``
This proves:
(c) You think you are making fun of hindus. Here is news: You are making fun of your own self.
You continue ``or whatever I do to them``
This proves:
(d) You confuse speech with action: You can say what you like - try ``doing`` something to a hindu in real life and you will probably get a punch in the nose (assuming you are dumb enough to pick someone bigger than you); or charged with assault (if you are dumb enough to pick someone smaller than you).
You write: ``at least they (your posts) get noticed.``
This proves the following:
e. You have a great need to be noticed.
I am sorry if the above seem insulting or if I seem facetious, but I honestly think you have some serious problems that you need to reflect upon.
#96 Posted by tahmed321 on October 26, 2001 2:03:29 pm
sudhakar_barua: Of course if this had been India or Pakistan, the incidents you mention would have seemed like jokes. Spare me this self-righteous indignation and learn something from the Americans: not necessarily this particular individual (the author of the article) though, I hasten to add, who disliked landlords sons so much he spent 4 years in Pakistan teaching them. What I mean is American society generally, which is perhaps the most civilized and big-hearted society I have come across (and I have seen many places).
#95 Posted by Trillium on October 26, 2001 2:03:29 pm
Farce-Anna
You alone have brought `a letter home` alive in the form of a screeching, animus ridden voice
from an impersonal, intellectual... wilderness,
the very essence of all-or-nothing/lose-lose paradox. Tanks!
You alone have brought `a letter home` alive in the form of a screeching, animus ridden voice
from an impersonal, intellectual... wilderness,
the very essence of all-or-nothing/lose-lose paradox. Tanks!
#94 Posted by sarwar on October 26, 2001 2:03:29 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#93 Posted by harimau on October 26, 2001 2:03:29 pm
Ref ylh #: 75
[Hamidm
`the silliest thing mankind has withnessed is a half naked faqir running around making salt and spinning cotton on an antedeluvian wheel`
You sir are my newest hero.]
As usual, you are pathetic. Your hatred of Gandhi knows no bounds.
Just go to www.roymoxham.com and read the section on salt starvation. Then form your opinion about Gandhi`s famous Salt March.
Roy Moxham is the author of the book ``The Great Hedge of India``.
If you have enough time from your other unsavory activities, you might want to read that book in its entirety.
[Hamidm
`the silliest thing mankind has withnessed is a half naked faqir running around making salt and spinning cotton on an antedeluvian wheel`
You sir are my newest hero.]
As usual, you are pathetic. Your hatred of Gandhi knows no bounds.
Just go to www.roymoxham.com and read the section on salt starvation. Then form your opinion about Gandhi`s famous Salt March.
Roy Moxham is the author of the book ``The Great Hedge of India``.
If you have enough time from your other unsavory activities, you might want to read that book in its entirety.
#92 Posted by Urstruly on October 26, 2001 12:39:07 pm
Hi Farzana!
I am a great fan of bigotry and stereotyping. I consider a bigot and a stereotyper an honest person, honest than rest of us all, because he has moral courage to speak his mind. It is not an issue of right and wrong, but of courage. We must encourage such people because they are a mouthpiece of the ugly side of our collective conscience. They are like a person who holds a mirror in front of your face; only you can see your face in the mirror but he can`t. You are getting a precious chance of getting that piece of lettuce stuck between your teeth out at his expense. Yeah, for a moment you have to look at the ugly side of yourself but you will look beautiful again if you manage to take that piece of green out of your teeth. Well you also have an option to hit the man who is holding the mirror, right in the face but what you get ultimately is a distorted image of yourself in the broken mirror.
BUT the above golden nuggets of philosophy do not apply to Hindus; as you asked in the second part your post. Hindus are not stereotypers or bigots. They are exactly what their words are. Their words seem to be bigoted but they are not because Hindus do not know any other way to express themselves. Again this is not a question of right or wrong, it is just a matter of being what they are. So when I make fun of them or whatever I do to them is not because I resent their bigotry; but it is like making fun of a limp, or crippled, or an Albino who has nothing to do with his birth defect. I know it is mean but hey the world is cruel; at least they get noticed.
I am a great fan of bigotry and stereotyping. I consider a bigot and a stereotyper an honest person, honest than rest of us all, because he has moral courage to speak his mind. It is not an issue of right and wrong, but of courage. We must encourage such people because they are a mouthpiece of the ugly side of our collective conscience. They are like a person who holds a mirror in front of your face; only you can see your face in the mirror but he can`t. You are getting a precious chance of getting that piece of lettuce stuck between your teeth out at his expense. Yeah, for a moment you have to look at the ugly side of yourself but you will look beautiful again if you manage to take that piece of green out of your teeth. Well you also have an option to hit the man who is holding the mirror, right in the face but what you get ultimately is a distorted image of yourself in the broken mirror.
BUT the above golden nuggets of philosophy do not apply to Hindus; as you asked in the second part your post. Hindus are not stereotypers or bigots. They are exactly what their words are. Their words seem to be bigoted but they are not because Hindus do not know any other way to express themselves. Again this is not a question of right or wrong, it is just a matter of being what they are. So when I make fun of them or whatever I do to them is not because I resent their bigotry; but it is like making fun of a limp, or crippled, or an Albino who has nothing to do with his birth defect. I know it is mean but hey the world is cruel; at least they get noticed.
#91 Posted by sudhakar_barua on October 26, 2001 9:27:00 am
Dear Terry, liked your article. Your America and Americans has to teach the world a lot. e.g., read below(taken from http://www.sikh.org/hatecrime/)
Ref Date S Description Location
207 10/24/2001 V Random searches at US airports Hartford CT US
205 10/23/2001 U Told that he cannot fly with a Turban Albuquerque NM US
206 10/23/2001 U Verbal Abuse Ann Arbor MI US
204 10/19/2001 V Sikh man beaten at his motel SeaTac WA US
208 10/18/2001 U FBI Responded To a Biased Highway Patrol Officers Allegations Baselton, GA & Opelika, AL AL US
202 10/15/2001 V Visit by FBI Special Agents to Investigate a Hot Tip Tucson AZ US
198 10/13/2001 V Brick thrown thru window (Old Ref: 313) Centerville VA US
199 10/13/2001 V Threatening gestures (Old Ref: 314) Kansas City KS US
210 10/13/2001 V Picked twice on different Airports for extra checking Chicago IL US
195 10/12/2001 V Verbal Harrassment while driving (Old Ref: 312) Cincinnati OH US
191 10/10/2001 U Verbal Assault (Old Ref: 306) Pleasant Hill CA US
192 10/10/2001 V While driving to work, was bothered by another driver who tried to impersonate a police officer, run me off the road, and threw a large cup of coffee on my windshield. (Old Ref: 308) Parsipanny NJ US
189 10/9/2001 V Indian Man attacked with a baseball bat (Old Ref: 304) San Diego CA US
200 10/9/2001 V Racial Profiling of Sikh Truck Driver Bridgeport CT US
186 10/7/2001 V Indecent finger pointing incident (Old Ref: 299) Columbus OH US
193 10/7/2001 V Attacked by youth on skateboards San Jose CA US
182 10/5/2001 V Harrasment from street vendor and from U.S. Marines (Old Ref: 293) New York NY US
184 10/5/2001 U Verbal assault (Old Ref: 297) Metropark NJ US
180 10/4/2001 V Sikh woman stabbed (Old Ref: 290) San Diego CA US
203 10/3/2001 V Racial Profiling Questoins at the Airport Boston MA US
Ref Date S Description Location
207 10/24/2001 V Random searches at US airports Hartford CT US
205 10/23/2001 U Told that he cannot fly with a Turban Albuquerque NM US
206 10/23/2001 U Verbal Abuse Ann Arbor MI US
204 10/19/2001 V Sikh man beaten at his motel SeaTac WA US
208 10/18/2001 U FBI Responded To a Biased Highway Patrol Officers Allegations Baselton, GA & Opelika, AL AL US
202 10/15/2001 V Visit by FBI Special Agents to Investigate a Hot Tip Tucson AZ US
198 10/13/2001 V Brick thrown thru window (Old Ref: 313) Centerville VA US
199 10/13/2001 V Threatening gestures (Old Ref: 314) Kansas City KS US
210 10/13/2001 V Picked twice on different Airports for extra checking Chicago IL US
195 10/12/2001 V Verbal Harrassment while driving (Old Ref: 312) Cincinnati OH US
191 10/10/2001 U Verbal Assault (Old Ref: 306) Pleasant Hill CA US
192 10/10/2001 V While driving to work, was bothered by another driver who tried to impersonate a police officer, run me off the road, and threw a large cup of coffee on my windshield. (Old Ref: 308) Parsipanny NJ US
189 10/9/2001 V Indian Man attacked with a baseball bat (Old Ref: 304) San Diego CA US
200 10/9/2001 V Racial Profiling of Sikh Truck Driver Bridgeport CT US
186 10/7/2001 V Indecent finger pointing incident (Old Ref: 299) Columbus OH US
193 10/7/2001 V Attacked by youth on skateboards San Jose CA US
182 10/5/2001 V Harrasment from street vendor and from U.S. Marines (Old Ref: 293) New York NY US
184 10/5/2001 U Verbal assault (Old Ref: 297) Metropark NJ US
180 10/4/2001 V Sikh woman stabbed (Old Ref: 290) San Diego CA US
203 10/3/2001 V Racial Profiling Questoins at the Airport Boston MA US
#90 Posted by Mehdavi on October 26, 2001 9:27:00 am
Lajwant # 78
IMAM MEHDI HAS COME AND GONE
If IMAM MEHDI is same as THE PROMISED MEHDI, he
has come and gone. He was born in Juanpur,
Utter Pradesh, India on 14 Jamadi-ul-Awwal 847
hijri and died in AFGHANISTAN on 19 Ziquada 910
hijri.
IMAM MEHDI HAS COME AND GONE
If IMAM MEHDI is same as THE PROMISED MEHDI, he
has come and gone. He was born in Juanpur,
Utter Pradesh, India on 14 Jamadi-ul-Awwal 847
hijri and died in AFGHANISTAN on 19 Ziquada 910
hijri.
#89 Posted by ShirinAhmed on October 26, 2001 9:27:00 am
Dear Terry,
I am writing this letter in a hurry as I dont want Yasmin to read it.Darling, you talk of exhaustion ?? you dont know what exhaustion truly is!
This Anthrax scare is killing .... at least you dont have to worry about such things there !!
Look at the bright side of things ... you can walk to any street cafe with no fear.Sometimes I wonder what I am doing here? How I long to munch that Big Xtra that McDonalds has just introduced , but Yasmin will just not let me ... Mom !! Anthrax spores , Anthrax Spores ...
Yasmin is loosing so much weight, because of all this anxiety.She has become so weak, and checks everything out with great suspicion.I am just so exhausted seeing her do this. Sometimes she wails a lot and says `` why cant I just go to Pakistan , at least I would be able to eat peacefully there like Daddy does``? .Maybe I will have to put her in those anger management classes, as her behaviour is really exhausting me out.
Darling you complain of the spoilt kids there! sweetheart they must be angels compared to what I go through every day at home with Yasmin.Its really tough bringing up kids in the West .Now I worry as she is at the legal age of dialling 911, if I get on her case for too long .How I envy the mom`s in Pakistan, at least they dont get exhausted like we do here.
Thank God for the parent support groups we have here .I just cannot visualise life without them.I have enrolled myself in one.The exhaustion would have just otherwise chewed me raw.
Sometimes I feel we made a big mistake,by not settling in Pakistan.You had suggested it, when we went to adopt Yasmin, but it was stubborn me at that time... how wrong I was !
Yasmin has finally found a very nice boy.He does not come from a very wealthy family, however that does not worry me too much.I have assured Yasmin that now with Daddy`s super job, we would be able to settle her nicely.Can you imagine the exhaustion otherwise for us ?
Sweetheart ... we should count our blessings ... look at the wonderful pay cheque you receive every month .... you would never have made those mega bucks here !
Sweety , thanks for the lovely new Beemer for Yasmin`s 16th birthday... you should see the look on her face every time she switches on the ignition. Cannot stop saying how much she loves you:)
The mortgage is by the Grace of God paid off sooner than we expected .I have updated all the kitchen appliances ... for a change I could go and shop without looking at the ``Special `` tags in all the weekend flyers , you know how exhausting that is for me !
Darling ,your job means a lot for all of us , hope you understand that, so whatever you do please stay there .
love you, and miss you !
Yours Lovingly ...
[while writing this out ,accidentally the submission button went through, so if you see a previous copy of this letter, please disregard it as work in progress ]
Thank you,
sa:)
I am writing this letter in a hurry as I dont want Yasmin to read it.Darling, you talk of exhaustion ?? you dont know what exhaustion truly is!
This Anthrax scare is killing .... at least you dont have to worry about such things there !!
Look at the bright side of things ... you can walk to any street cafe with no fear.Sometimes I wonder what I am doing here? How I long to munch that Big Xtra that McDonalds has just introduced , but Yasmin will just not let me ... Mom !! Anthrax spores , Anthrax Spores ...
Yasmin is loosing so much weight, because of all this anxiety.She has become so weak, and checks everything out with great suspicion.I am just so exhausted seeing her do this. Sometimes she wails a lot and says `` why cant I just go to Pakistan , at least I would be able to eat peacefully there like Daddy does``? .Maybe I will have to put her in those anger management classes, as her behaviour is really exhausting me out.
Darling you complain of the spoilt kids there! sweetheart they must be angels compared to what I go through every day at home with Yasmin.Its really tough bringing up kids in the West .Now I worry as she is at the legal age of dialling 911, if I get on her case for too long .How I envy the mom`s in Pakistan, at least they dont get exhausted like we do here.
Thank God for the parent support groups we have here .I just cannot visualise life without them.I have enrolled myself in one.The exhaustion would have just otherwise chewed me raw.
Sometimes I feel we made a big mistake,by not settling in Pakistan.You had suggested it, when we went to adopt Yasmin, but it was stubborn me at that time... how wrong I was !
Yasmin has finally found a very nice boy.He does not come from a very wealthy family, however that does not worry me too much.I have assured Yasmin that now with Daddy`s super job, we would be able to settle her nicely.Can you imagine the exhaustion otherwise for us ?
Sweetheart ... we should count our blessings ... look at the wonderful pay cheque you receive every month .... you would never have made those mega bucks here !
Sweety , thanks for the lovely new Beemer for Yasmin`s 16th birthday... you should see the look on her face every time she switches on the ignition. Cannot stop saying how much she loves you:)
The mortgage is by the Grace of God paid off sooner than we expected .I have updated all the kitchen appliances ... for a change I could go and shop without looking at the ``Special `` tags in all the weekend flyers , you know how exhausting that is for me !
Darling ,your job means a lot for all of us , hope you understand that, so whatever you do please stay there .
love you, and miss you !
Yours Lovingly ...
[while writing this out ,accidentally the submission button went through, so if you see a previous copy of this letter, please disregard it as work in progress ]
Thank you,
sa:)
#88 Posted by ShirinAhmed on October 26, 2001 9:27:00 am
Dear Terry,
I am writing this letter in a hurry as I dont want Yasmin to read it.Darling, you talk of exhaustion ?? you dont know what exhaustion truly is!
This Anthrax scare is killing .... at least you dont have to worry about such things there !!
Look at the bright side of things ... you can walk to any street cafe with no fear.Sometimes I feel `what am I doing here` ? How I long to munch that Big Xtra that McDonalds has just introduced , but Yasmin will just not let me ... Mom !! Anthrax spores , Anthrax Spores ...
Yasmin is loosing so much weight, because of all this anxiety.She has become so weak, and checks everything out with great suspicion.I am just so exhausted seeing her do this. Sometimes she wails a lot and says `` why cant I just go to Pakistan , at least I would be able to eat peacefully there like Daddy does``? .Maybe I will have to put her in those anger management classes, as her behaviour is really exhausting me out.Darling you complain of the spoilt kids there! sweetheart they must be angels compared to what I go through every day at home with Yasmin.Its really tough bringing up kids in the West .Now I worry as she is at the legal age of dialling 911, if I get on her case for too long .How I envy the mom`s in Pakistan, at least they dont get exhausted like we here do.
Sometimes i feel we made a big mistake,by not settling in P
Yasmin has finally found a very nice boy.He does not come from a very wealthy family, however that does not worry me too much.I have assured Yasmin that now with Daddy`s super job, we would be able to settle her nicely.Can you imagine the exhaustion otherwise for me .
Sweetheart ... we should count our blessings ... look at the wonderful pay cheque you receive every month .... you would never have made those mega bucks here !
Sweety , thanks for the lovely new Beemer for Yasmin`s 16th birthday... you should see the look on her face every time she switches on the ignition. Cannot stop saying how much she loves you:) The mortgage is by the Grace of God paid off sooner than we expected .I have updated all the kitchen appliances ... for a change I could go and shop without looking at the ``Special `` tags in all the weekend flyers , you know how exhausting that is for me !
Darling ,your job means a lot for all of us , hope you understand that, so whatever you do please stay there .
love you, and miss you !
Yours Lovingly ...
I am writing this letter in a hurry as I dont want Yasmin to read it.Darling, you talk of exhaustion ?? you dont know what exhaustion truly is!
This Anthrax scare is killing .... at least you dont have to worry about such things there !!
Look at the bright side of things ... you can walk to any street cafe with no fear.Sometimes I feel `what am I doing here` ? How I long to munch that Big Xtra that McDonalds has just introduced , but Yasmin will just not let me ... Mom !! Anthrax spores , Anthrax Spores ...
Yasmin is loosing so much weight, because of all this anxiety.She has become so weak, and checks everything out with great suspicion.I am just so exhausted seeing her do this. Sometimes she wails a lot and says `` why cant I just go to Pakistan , at least I would be able to eat peacefully there like Daddy does``? .Maybe I will have to put her in those anger management classes, as her behaviour is really exhausting me out.Darling you complain of the spoilt kids there! sweetheart they must be angels compared to what I go through every day at home with Yasmin.Its really tough bringing up kids in the West .Now I worry as she is at the legal age of dialling 911, if I get on her case for too long .How I envy the mom`s in Pakistan, at least they dont get exhausted like we here do.
Sometimes i feel we made a big mistake,by not settling in P
Yasmin has finally found a very nice boy.He does not come from a very wealthy family, however that does not worry me too much.I have assured Yasmin that now with Daddy`s super job, we would be able to settle her nicely.Can you imagine the exhaustion otherwise for me .
Sweetheart ... we should count our blessings ... look at the wonderful pay cheque you receive every month .... you would never have made those mega bucks here !
Sweety , thanks for the lovely new Beemer for Yasmin`s 16th birthday... you should see the look on her face every time she switches on the ignition. Cannot stop saying how much she loves you:) The mortgage is by the Grace of God paid off sooner than we expected .I have updated all the kitchen appliances ... for a change I could go and shop without looking at the ``Special `` tags in all the weekend flyers , you know how exhausting that is for me !
Darling ,your job means a lot for all of us , hope you understand that, so whatever you do please stay there .
love you, and miss you !
Yours Lovingly ...
#87 Posted by FarzanaVersey on October 26, 2001 9:27:00 am
Urstruly (#52):
What are you talking about? If everyone is a ‘stereotyper’, then why are we arguing with one other? And if you believe that an individual perception is not supposed to typify a group, then how do you let Mr. Burns off so easily for the same? Not only that, you even jump to his defence: “Not a single interlocutor has made a differentiation between views
of one American i.e. Mr. Burns and rest of the Americans. See the subtlety of the underlying message here? What it means is that the interlocutors not only believe what you are saying but the main thing is that they believe that `your` views about them are the
views of The Americans.”
If there was subtlety in the message, then how has it become so obvious?? Now tell me, when one Indian does the nasty on Pakistan, don’t you condemn Indians as ‘Hindians’? If one Pakistani takes ugly potshots at India isn’t he branded a mullah from a ‘tribal society’?
And was there some ironic point you were making when you hit out at us stereotypers and then at the end introduced yourself as, ``Hi! My name is Urstruly and I am a stereotyper``? Should we say, welcome to the club? And we shall let the rest of the introduction be your unique privilege :)
Trillium (#56):
Your author’s note was far more perceptive than your letter, especially your comment, “What an American may call `corruption`, a struggling majority calls ``life``. But when you say, “Didn`t I see ``good`` things? I saw MOSTLY good things, but they were invisible to most”, who denotes “most”? Aren’t you then trying to say that you could ‘visualize’ better than the rest? And you say, “It`s impossible for an American to feel ``superior`` on the subcontinent with open eyes.” So did you go around with your eyes shut? If not, then what make you rant, “Yes. I saw and experienced India as well. O.K., O.K. For the screamers, I didn`t see what I saw. Now go tell your driver to shine your Pajero and enjoy the anarchic anonymity of your computer. All is well. Those aren’t beggars you see, they’re actors, and all the world’s a stage..” Nice thing that your computer HAS an identity of its own…which is why you and it speak different languages…Sure thing, all the world’s a stage, so can we have a replay of the OJ trial, puhleeze?
As for screamers “with steel plates in their heads,” how about iron rods? Or is that just too magnetic for you to handle?
“I’m a bit rougher on America. More later.”
Yes, leave it be for a while. America needs its few good men right now to fight its gee-had. Hang in there.
Scout (#59):
Yes, I was fighting generalisation with generalisation – how can one get specific about attitudes? How can I counteract a sweeping statement about tyrant little boys by talking about one particular instance? Would that not make it a narrower view?
Regarding women, I know that in our part of the subcontinent rising to any level is slow and painful, as you say, but at what cost are women in the West “winning”? When I gave the examples of Brockovich, Madonna and Barbie, you mentioned it was by choice that they agreed to be used (I am sure you realise that Barbie has no choice!). Do you realise that their choice is dictated by western male standards? Even the vocal feminist Betty Friedan admitted that she was leading a double life, where she spoke about women’s lib but was being physically and emotionally battered by her husband. There are women who break through the glass ceiling in the West as they do in India and Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. I would say the ‘areas’ of exploitation differ and we mistake that for ‘degrees’ of exploitation.
The Jefferson and the slave girl example happened way back, no doubt, but history is regurgitated all the time to make political and social points.You have said in another context, “So the US is the superpower of the world now, and is acting accordingly, right or wrong. It`s the way of the world, of history repeating itself.” Ok, so if you think all colonizers behave the way the US is doing now, at least let that come through. If we cut out the crap of ‘Enduring Freedom’, then maybe it would be easier to deal with American smart bombs.
Regarding lack of American culture, the writer himself said so. I totally believe in individuality being more important than any culture, but can you tell me in what way that country appreciates all cultures? What cultures thrive in the US? And I too am not talking about nihari and burgers…
sac (#60):
[“Most of the interacts prove most of the points Terry has rambled about in his piece. Having a sense of humor is the most precious resource one has in dealing with hyperbole and innuendo. The frantic defence from the `enlightened` ones is equivalent to cries of `Islam khatray mein hai`.....”]
What made you think we did not go hee-haw before donning the war gear?? Mogambo khush hua…
Id (#65):
Far be it for me to “defend” our treatment of women. Nowhere have I said or suggested that. In fact, I do believe it is despicable. I only used it as a counterpoint to what Mr. Burns was saying and have elaborated on it to my post to scout.
Mahesh G (#69, 70)
[“Have you been in the US, Farzana?”]
Yes. Not to all parts of it, though. Even wrote a balanced travelogue :)
[“#4 Is that the best retort you could come up with?”]
I know you always expect better from me. Am working at it.
[“I lodge a very stong protest against the author for clubbing India and Pakistan together.
The author supposed to be a teacher. Why doesn`t he educate himself about India. There is no feudalism in India.”]
I also lodge a strong protest. How can India and Pak be clubbed together? There is no feudalism in India; we only have zamindaari, dadagiri, aiyyashi, where in the villages there is bonded labour, in the urban shanties slum lords extract money for every little thing, and the city slickers ram BMWs into innocents and are let off. We have no feudalism at all. Mahesh, aapke aur hamare khayalat kitne milte-julte hai, na?
Stuka (#72):
[“Um, did he post a picture somewhere?? How do you guys know this guy is a white guy? Oh right, no one could even IMAGINE the absolute temerity of a black guy to criticize us like this??”]
Oye, Black guys can criticize us…Colin Powell does. Terry Burns himself said he was a “ghora”. Now I could not IMAGINE a horse writing, to bas soch liya ke White man hi hoga. Aur itna sad face kyon banaa rahe ho when you say that you appreciate urstruly’s post? Even authorji thought it was brilliant. Aur urstruly to apna hi aadmi hai :)
Aur humko “scalded cat” kya samajh ke bulaaya? Abhi SPCA ko phone karte hai. What the writer says is just “his opinions”, then what we say is that as well. Why assume we are on a hot tin roof? Ghareeb mulk mein rahte hai iska matlab yeh nahin hua ke cement ka makaan nahin ho sakta.
And hey, you must know quite a bit about feudalism in India. You were a regular at the Delhi Gym, right?!
Zafar (#76):
[??????]
matbal? Tanik samjhaane ki kosiss karo to bahut hi mehenerbaani. Hamaar dimaag aisan chalat naahin….yihaan UP ke elecsun ka dauraa jor-shor se chalaa kiya hai, ke hamaar nayan ko eent-paththar ke sivaai kuchch dikhat hi naahin…par aap to bidesvaa ki hawaa-sair karat ho…hamree peedha jaano thodi? Ab kaa kare…jindagee badee beraiham hain.
[“Hau Ma, yeh tho bilkul sahiij kaha thum ne. Apun ke marad logan tho aisiij karthe…voh bahar vaale hiij sootan pen ke naatchthe so, aur voh bas jumbad hiij dene ko...”]
Sootan kaaN pente? Voh to bade-bade marad logan bhij baal mein phool daal ke ghoomte aur auratan ke kapde pente. Idhar to ‘vaise’ logaaN bhi ijaar pente. Hai ke nai? Insaaf karo, ho…
Ek serious sawaal hai….What does ‘Pukistan’ mean? I really want to know whether it is being used regularly outside of Chowk. What is its genesis? You may answer in English. I do have a translator around :)
Regards to all,
Farzana
What are you talking about? If everyone is a ‘stereotyper’, then why are we arguing with one other? And if you believe that an individual perception is not supposed to typify a group, then how do you let Mr. Burns off so easily for the same? Not only that, you even jump to his defence: “Not a single interlocutor has made a differentiation between views
of one American i.e. Mr. Burns and rest of the Americans. See the subtlety of the underlying message here? What it means is that the interlocutors not only believe what you are saying but the main thing is that they believe that `your` views about them are the
views of The Americans.”
If there was subtlety in the message, then how has it become so obvious?? Now tell me, when one Indian does the nasty on Pakistan, don’t you condemn Indians as ‘Hindians’? If one Pakistani takes ugly potshots at India isn’t he branded a mullah from a ‘tribal society’?
And was there some ironic point you were making when you hit out at us stereotypers and then at the end introduced yourself as, ``Hi! My name is Urstruly and I am a stereotyper``? Should we say, welcome to the club? And we shall let the rest of the introduction be your unique privilege :)
Trillium (#56):
Your author’s note was far more perceptive than your letter, especially your comment, “What an American may call `corruption`, a struggling majority calls ``life``. But when you say, “Didn`t I see ``good`` things? I saw MOSTLY good things, but they were invisible to most”, who denotes “most”? Aren’t you then trying to say that you could ‘visualize’ better than the rest? And you say, “It`s impossible for an American to feel ``superior`` on the subcontinent with open eyes.” So did you go around with your eyes shut? If not, then what make you rant, “Yes. I saw and experienced India as well. O.K., O.K. For the screamers, I didn`t see what I saw. Now go tell your driver to shine your Pajero and enjoy the anarchic anonymity of your computer. All is well. Those aren’t beggars you see, they’re actors, and all the world’s a stage..” Nice thing that your computer HAS an identity of its own…which is why you and it speak different languages…Sure thing, all the world’s a stage, so can we have a replay of the OJ trial, puhleeze?
As for screamers “with steel plates in their heads,” how about iron rods? Or is that just too magnetic for you to handle?
“I’m a bit rougher on America. More later.”
Yes, leave it be for a while. America needs its few good men right now to fight its gee-had. Hang in there.
Scout (#59):
Yes, I was fighting generalisation with generalisation – how can one get specific about attitudes? How can I counteract a sweeping statement about tyrant little boys by talking about one particular instance? Would that not make it a narrower view?
Regarding women, I know that in our part of the subcontinent rising to any level is slow and painful, as you say, but at what cost are women in the West “winning”? When I gave the examples of Brockovich, Madonna and Barbie, you mentioned it was by choice that they agreed to be used (I am sure you realise that Barbie has no choice!). Do you realise that their choice is dictated by western male standards? Even the vocal feminist Betty Friedan admitted that she was leading a double life, where she spoke about women’s lib but was being physically and emotionally battered by her husband. There are women who break through the glass ceiling in the West as they do in India and Pakistan, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka. I would say the ‘areas’ of exploitation differ and we mistake that for ‘degrees’ of exploitation.
The Jefferson and the slave girl example happened way back, no doubt, but history is regurgitated all the time to make political and social points.You have said in another context, “So the US is the superpower of the world now, and is acting accordingly, right or wrong. It`s the way of the world, of history repeating itself.” Ok, so if you think all colonizers behave the way the US is doing now, at least let that come through. If we cut out the crap of ‘Enduring Freedom’, then maybe it would be easier to deal with American smart bombs.
Regarding lack of American culture, the writer himself said so. I totally believe in individuality being more important than any culture, but can you tell me in what way that country appreciates all cultures? What cultures thrive in the US? And I too am not talking about nihari and burgers…
sac (#60):
[“Most of the interacts prove most of the points Terry has rambled about in his piece. Having a sense of humor is the most precious resource one has in dealing with hyperbole and innuendo. The frantic defence from the `enlightened` ones is equivalent to cries of `Islam khatray mein hai`.....”]
What made you think we did not go hee-haw before donning the war gear?? Mogambo khush hua…
Id (#65):
Far be it for me to “defend” our treatment of women. Nowhere have I said or suggested that. In fact, I do believe it is despicable. I only used it as a counterpoint to what Mr. Burns was saying and have elaborated on it to my post to scout.
Mahesh G (#69, 70)
[“Have you been in the US, Farzana?”]
Yes. Not to all parts of it, though. Even wrote a balanced travelogue :)
[“#4 Is that the best retort you could come up with?”]
I know you always expect better from me. Am working at it.
[“I lodge a very stong protest against the author for clubbing India and Pakistan together.
The author supposed to be a teacher. Why doesn`t he educate himself about India. There is no feudalism in India.”]
I also lodge a strong protest. How can India and Pak be clubbed together? There is no feudalism in India; we only have zamindaari, dadagiri, aiyyashi, where in the villages there is bonded labour, in the urban shanties slum lords extract money for every little thing, and the city slickers ram BMWs into innocents and are let off. We have no feudalism at all. Mahesh, aapke aur hamare khayalat kitne milte-julte hai, na?
Stuka (#72):
[“Um, did he post a picture somewhere?? How do you guys know this guy is a white guy? Oh right, no one could even IMAGINE the absolute temerity of a black guy to criticize us like this??”]
Oye, Black guys can criticize us…Colin Powell does. Terry Burns himself said he was a “ghora”. Now I could not IMAGINE a horse writing, to bas soch liya ke White man hi hoga. Aur itna sad face kyon banaa rahe ho when you say that you appreciate urstruly’s post? Even authorji thought it was brilliant. Aur urstruly to apna hi aadmi hai :)
Aur humko “scalded cat” kya samajh ke bulaaya? Abhi SPCA ko phone karte hai. What the writer says is just “his opinions”, then what we say is that as well. Why assume we are on a hot tin roof? Ghareeb mulk mein rahte hai iska matlab yeh nahin hua ke cement ka makaan nahin ho sakta.
And hey, you must know quite a bit about feudalism in India. You were a regular at the Delhi Gym, right?!
Zafar (#76):
[??????]
matbal? Tanik samjhaane ki kosiss karo to bahut hi mehenerbaani. Hamaar dimaag aisan chalat naahin….yihaan UP ke elecsun ka dauraa jor-shor se chalaa kiya hai, ke hamaar nayan ko eent-paththar ke sivaai kuchch dikhat hi naahin…par aap to bidesvaa ki hawaa-sair karat ho…hamree peedha jaano thodi? Ab kaa kare…jindagee badee beraiham hain.
[“Hau Ma, yeh tho bilkul sahiij kaha thum ne. Apun ke marad logan tho aisiij karthe…voh bahar vaale hiij sootan pen ke naatchthe so, aur voh bas jumbad hiij dene ko...”]
Sootan kaaN pente? Voh to bade-bade marad logan bhij baal mein phool daal ke ghoomte aur auratan ke kapde pente. Idhar to ‘vaise’ logaaN bhi ijaar pente. Hai ke nai? Insaaf karo, ho…
Ek serious sawaal hai….What does ‘Pukistan’ mean? I really want to know whether it is being used regularly outside of Chowk. What is its genesis? You may answer in English. I do have a translator around :)
Regards to all,
Farzana
#86 Posted by Bijli on October 26, 2001 9:27:00 am
Hi farzana ,I liked your post ,I know the first one was emotional ,but whats wrong with Passion in your reply it shows YOU CARE ,thankyou for men & women of NON white Anglo Saxon Protestent
Reply #: 59
scout
Well you can`t fight generalizations with generalizations of your own, and that was what your post #4 was about.
Let me show you what I mean, you say:
``As for our women continuing to “overindulge little tyrant boys”, in your country they do that with grown up boys too. What about Jack and Bill and now even Dubya?``
I agree to some extent BUT you have to realize, desi women are much softer and encouraging to male children. There is definitely a bigger gender bias in Pakistani culture than American culture.
Sure it exists here as well, but women are fighting it and having the opportunity to win the battle. In the subcontinent, the process of equality is much MUCH slower and painful.
THERE WILL NEVER BE WESTERN VALUE SYSTEM IN ASIA EVER.IF YOU LIVE IN AMERICA ,YOU CAN BRING YOUR DAUGHTER THE WAY YOU THINK ,BUT WHEN THE ELDER SON WONT BE THERE AT THE PREMATURE DEATH OF YOUR LOVE MARRIED NUCLEAR FAMILY HUSBAND LIVE THE LONLEY LIFE OF AMERICAN SYTEM ,GOOD LUCK
``After Jefferson took that kid slave girl as his mistress, you have been binding women – as
Erin Brockovich getting ahead in life because of her cleavage or the Barbie doll who symbolizes your version of feminine truth or the Material Girl, who is diva and dominatrix but is yet expected to cower down to motherhood and her personal trainer.``
SO IF BY CHOICE I BECOME SEXUALLY PROMISCUOUS,ALCOHOLIC,ITS ALRIGHT BECAUSE IT IS MY CHOICE.90 % WHEN THE CHOOSE TO HAVE SEX,DRUG,ALCOHOL & GAMBLE LACK THE FULL KNOWLEDGE REQUIRED TO MAKE THAT DISCISION.WE WILL NEVER LEAVE ASIA IN THE HAND OF IMMATURE BRAIN MAKING DISCISION WHO CANT EVEN EARN A LIVING.
``
The fault within your arguments is what I have stated before. Can`t generalize and argue against generalization. You`re doing the same thing this writer has done.
WE WANT TO SLAM LIKE THE AGRESSIVE AMERICANS ,WHY SHY FROM USING MY AMERICAN TRAINING THIS TIME
Check into world history. I`m sure people of other religions said the same thing when Islamic rulers were in power. So the US is the superpower of the world now, and is acting accordingly, right or wrong. It`s the way of the world, of history repeating itself. I`m not saying I agree with everything the US does, but I look at it`s actions under different lights.
DONT TALK ABOUT WHEN ISLAMIC RULERS IN POWERS WHEN YOU DONT DEMONSTRATE ANY INKLING OF HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE OF OMER FAROUK,ABUBAQR SIDDIQUE,OSMAN & aLI (R.A.)WHEN IT COMES TO AMERICAS FAULT ,YOU DEFEND IT NOT BY REASONING BUT ``SOFTNESS`` YOU CAN LIKE AMERICA 100% WITHOUT APOLOGISING FOR BEING FROM A MUSLIM HOME BUT DONT GIVE YOUR EVIL AMERICANISM TO ALL MUSLIMS.
``You are right: America has no culture.``
I used to say the same thing when I was younger, until I got to college and I realized that in the long run, individuality is more than any other country in the world. And if to you that means, America has no culture, then I think you need to re-evaluate this misconception.
I DONT KNOW WHOSE CULTURE IS GREATER ITS LIKE SAYING WHOSE RELIGION,LANGUAGE ,LITERATURE IS BETTER.i THINK AMERICA HAS BOUGHT ALL THE CULTURES OF ALL THE WORLD WITH MONEY LIKE A RICH MAN COLLECTING ART .BUT ART & LITERATRURE IS JUST AS MUCH APPRECIATED BY THE POOR AS THE RICH MAN .THAT IS NOT SOMTHING THAT MONEY CAN BUY.AMERICA HAS BIGGEST CULTURE ,I LL GLADLY GIVE YOU .
Reply #: 59
scout
Well you can`t fight generalizations with generalizations of your own, and that was what your post #4 was about.
Let me show you what I mean, you say:
``As for our women continuing to “overindulge little tyrant boys”, in your country they do that with grown up boys too. What about Jack and Bill and now even Dubya?``
I agree to some extent BUT you have to realize, desi women are much softer and encouraging to male children. There is definitely a bigger gender bias in Pakistani culture than American culture.
Sure it exists here as well, but women are fighting it and having the opportunity to win the battle. In the subcontinent, the process of equality is much MUCH slower and painful.
THERE WILL NEVER BE WESTERN VALUE SYSTEM IN ASIA EVER.IF YOU LIVE IN AMERICA ,YOU CAN BRING YOUR DAUGHTER THE WAY YOU THINK ,BUT WHEN THE ELDER SON WONT BE THERE AT THE PREMATURE DEATH OF YOUR LOVE MARRIED NUCLEAR FAMILY HUSBAND LIVE THE LONLEY LIFE OF AMERICAN SYTEM ,GOOD LUCK
``After Jefferson took that kid slave girl as his mistress, you have been binding women – as
Erin Brockovich getting ahead in life because of her cleavage or the Barbie doll who symbolizes your version of feminine truth or the Material Girl, who is diva and dominatrix but is yet expected to cower down to motherhood and her personal trainer.``
SO IF BY CHOICE I BECOME SEXUALLY PROMISCUOUS,ALCOHOLIC,ITS ALRIGHT BECAUSE IT IS MY CHOICE.90 % WHEN THE CHOOSE TO HAVE SEX,DRUG,ALCOHOL & GAMBLE LACK THE FULL KNOWLEDGE REQUIRED TO MAKE THAT DISCISION.WE WILL NEVER LEAVE ASIA IN THE HAND OF IMMATURE BRAIN MAKING DISCISION WHO CANT EVEN EARN A LIVING.
``
The fault within your arguments is what I have stated before. Can`t generalize and argue against generalization. You`re doing the same thing this writer has done.
WE WANT TO SLAM LIKE THE AGRESSIVE AMERICANS ,WHY SHY FROM USING MY AMERICAN TRAINING THIS TIME
Check into world history. I`m sure people of other religions said the same thing when Islamic rulers were in power. So the US is the superpower of the world now, and is acting accordingly, right or wrong. It`s the way of the world, of history repeating itself. I`m not saying I agree with everything the US does, but I look at it`s actions under different lights.
DONT TALK ABOUT WHEN ISLAMIC RULERS IN POWERS WHEN YOU DONT DEMONSTRATE ANY INKLING OF HISTORICAL KNOWLEDGE OF OMER FAROUK,ABUBAQR SIDDIQUE,OSMAN & aLI (R.A.)WHEN IT COMES TO AMERICAS FAULT ,YOU DEFEND IT NOT BY REASONING BUT ``SOFTNESS`` YOU CAN LIKE AMERICA 100% WITHOUT APOLOGISING FOR BEING FROM A MUSLIM HOME BUT DONT GIVE YOUR EVIL AMERICANISM TO ALL MUSLIMS.
``You are right: America has no culture.``
I used to say the same thing when I was younger, until I got to college and I realized that in the long run, individuality is more than any other country in the world. And if to you that means, America has no culture, then I think you need to re-evaluate this misconception.
I DONT KNOW WHOSE CULTURE IS GREATER ITS LIKE SAYING WHOSE RELIGION,LANGUAGE ,LITERATURE IS BETTER.i THINK AMERICA HAS BOUGHT ALL THE CULTURES OF ALL THE WORLD WITH MONEY LIKE A RICH MAN COLLECTING ART .BUT ART & LITERATRURE IS JUST AS MUCH APPRECIATED BY THE POOR AS THE RICH MAN .THAT IS NOT SOMTHING THAT MONEY CAN BUY.AMERICA HAS BIGGEST CULTURE ,I LL GLADLY GIVE YOU .
#85 Posted by ZafarA on October 26, 2001 9:27:00 am
Reply Scout # 54
“i think i can safely say, along with other pakistanis, that he does make valid points, but come on...things like squating down to pee?”
Makhfi also says some relevant things (albeit without any balance) but come on jee….green urinals an insult to Islam?
Zafar
PS Now what have you got against poor Janet Reno. She has a difficult enough life without people on Chowk dissing her about her assets.
And another thing:
“The best part about America is the opportunity to appreciate all cultures more so than any other country in the world...”
Jee, I know it`s say nice things about Amreeka month, but you fall into this common trap of seeing the US as the only country in the world where immigrants and different cultures are welcomed and celebrated. Even if you generously include the almost-State north of the US in your definition of Amreeka you have left out any consideration of Australia (where multiculturalism is Government policy and as a consequence we get our electricity bills with helpful notes in Arabic, Chinese, Vietnamese, Turkish, Greek, Italian, Macedonian…truly I can’t remember all the languages they use) and New Zealand (where Maori, along with English, is a national language).
:-)
“i think i can safely say, along with other pakistanis, that he does make valid points, but come on...things like squating down to pee?”
Makhfi also says some relevant things (albeit without any balance) but come on jee….green urinals an insult to Islam?
Zafar
PS Now what have you got against poor Janet Reno. She has a difficult enough life without people on Chowk dissing her about her assets.
And another thing:
“The best part about America is the opportunity to appreciate all cultures more so than any other country in the world...”
Jee, I know it`s say nice things about Amreeka month, but you fall into this common trap of seeing the US as the only country in the world where immigrants and different cultures are welcomed and celebrated. Even if you generously include the almost-State north of the US in your definition of Amreeka you have left out any consideration of Australia (where multiculturalism is Government policy and as a consequence we get our electricity bills with helpful notes in Arabic, Chinese, Vietnamese, Turkish, Greek, Italian, Macedonian…truly I can’t remember all the languages they use) and New Zealand (where Maori, along with English, is a national language).
:-)
#84 Posted by ZafarA on October 26, 2001 9:27:00 am
Reply Stuka #: 72
“How do you guys know this guy is a white guy? Oh right, no one could even IMAGINE the absolute temerity of a black guy to criticize us like this??”
KO Stuka!
“How do you guys know this guy is a white guy? Oh right, no one could even IMAGINE the absolute temerity of a black guy to criticize us like this??”
KO Stuka!
#83 Posted by ali1 on October 26, 2001 9:27:00 am
Why have u used India and Pakistan interchangebly?I am deeply offended.
We (Pakistan) have nothing in common with the land of bubonic plague, the land of naked fakirs, the land of urine imbibing sadhus, the heap of cowdung, the putrid gutter..... India.
AAAAKHH THOOOOO
We (Pakistan) have nothing in common with the land of bubonic plague, the land of naked fakirs, the land of urine imbibing sadhus, the heap of cowdung, the putrid gutter..... India.
AAAAKHH THOOOOO
#82 Posted by nasah on October 26, 2001 12:39:24 am
Question:
If the terrorist sniffing ``smart bombs`` aimed at Osama Bin Laden can score a bull`s eye on a group of Harkatiya terrorists with their pants down -- then may be -- if US actually sics these
``intelligent`` bombs on Harakatiya and Lashkariya terrorists -- they may catch Osama Bin Laden in the act of ``squatting while urinating`` outside his cave.
Now don`t u think -- THAT -- will be ``The most interesting sight``?
If the terrorist sniffing ``smart bombs`` aimed at Osama Bin Laden can score a bull`s eye on a group of Harkatiya terrorists with their pants down -- then may be -- if US actually sics these
``intelligent`` bombs on Harakatiya and Lashkariya terrorists -- they may catch Osama Bin Laden in the act of ``squatting while urinating`` outside his cave.
Now don`t u think -- THAT -- will be ``The most interesting sight``?
#81 Posted by rsaxena on October 26, 2001 12:39:24 am
Re: ylh
``Hamidm
You sir are my newest hero.``
Just a few weeks ago you asked hamidm to go pimp his wife..now he is your hero.
No wonder you come up with delusions about Pakistan`s lost wars and it`s birth as an Islamic fundamentalist country (that jinnah fellow talked big about democracy and secularism but delivered garbage).
``Hamidm
You sir are my newest hero.``
Just a few weeks ago you asked hamidm to go pimp his wife..now he is your hero.
No wonder you come up with delusions about Pakistan`s lost wars and it`s birth as an Islamic fundamentalist country (that jinnah fellow talked big about democracy and secularism but delivered garbage).
#80 Posted by Eklavya on October 26, 2001 12:39:24 am
MaheshG # 70
Dimaagi feudalism tau hai na? The author`s labeling of Vajapayee a feudal is odd (actually, very odd) but we do have our share of feudal-wanna-bes.
Dimaagi feudalism tau hai na? The author`s labeling of Vajapayee a feudal is odd (actually, very odd) but we do have our share of feudal-wanna-bes.
#79 Posted by sac on October 26, 2001 12:10:44 am
Most of the interacts prove most of the points Terry has rambled about in his piece. Having a sense of humor is the most precious resource one has in dealing with hyperbole and innuendo. The frantic defence from the `enlightened` ones is equivalent to cries of `Islam khatray mein hai`.....
later
-sac
later
-sac
#78 Posted by Sheheryar on October 26, 2001 12:10:44 am
Speaking of the International School of Choueifat in Lahore and views of Americans that have taught there, the following interview may be of interest:
http://southasia.uchicago.edu/aut99a.htm
All the best
Sheheryar
PS. Check out my new gallery at:
http://www.angelfire.com/il/sheher
http://southasia.uchicago.edu/aut99a.htm
All the best
Sheheryar
PS. Check out my new gallery at:
http://www.angelfire.com/il/sheher
#77 Posted by apparition on October 26, 2001 12:10:44 am
Re Ordinary # 49
But isn’t it amusing to see Indians and Pakistanis ganging up for the first time...... and that too against a gora........lol :)
But isn’t it amusing to see Indians and Pakistanis ganging up for the first time...... and that too against a gora........lol :)
#76 Posted by Lajwanti on October 26, 2001 12:10:44 am
Advertise Here
Aslam Beg predicts
According to Khabrain ex-COAS General (Retd) Mirza Aslam Beg said that America will carpet-bomb Afghanistan after which the Taliban will become helpless. The Americans will destroy the Taliban and bring to power a broad-based coalition government in Kabul. After that the country will be split in small states which the Americans then will manipulate into fighting among themselves.
`Parpota` Sheikh Chilli
According to Ausaf, ex-president of Azad Kashmir and leader of Muslim Conference, Sardar Qayyum, said that America had always stood by Pakistan and that the Taliban should hand Osama bin Laden over to them. Those who accused America of being a fickle friend were nothing more than parpota of sheikh chilli (great grand children of a famous day-dreamer).
Imam Mehdi and Afghanistan
According to Khabrain, in the light of a hadith, the black-turbaned armies from Afghanistan will join the forces of Imam Mehdi. The armies of Rome will confront the armies of Madina and ask for men wanted by Rome, but Madina will refuse to give them up.
Don`t befriend Christians and Jews!
Famous cleric Dr Israr Ahmad wrote in daily Pakistan that Sura Maida in the Quran asked the Muslims not to befriend Christians and Jews because they were joined against Islam and that whoever befriended them would be one of them. Earlier the cleric had written that civil war in Pakistan would be useful in bringing Islam to the country.
Pakistan`s `halala` with America
Leader of JUI Balochistan Hafiz Hussain Ahmad told Khabrain that Pakistan was a divorcee of America but the Taliban had made it possible for America to do halala with it and take it back in wedlock. He said if Ahmad Shah Massoud had been alive he would have fought against America. He also said that Allama Tahirul Qadiri was a sarkari maulvi and calling him wise was contempt of court (because of stricture passed against him).
Filmstar turns out to be 34!
According to Khabrain famous filmstar Mira, who is 21 officially, had turned out to be 34 on the basis of the birth certificate made in Malir Karachi in 1967. She shifted as a two-year-old to Sheikhupura and her ID card was given the false year of birth as 1977. This discovery was supposed to affect her market value.
America`s real target!
Editor Ausaf Hamid Mir wrote in his column that after Zahir Shah had been brought to Kabul American troops will invade Afghanistan. Iran had become aware of this and was now issuing statements because once the American troops are stationed in Afghanistan they will not go away but use that platform to take their revenge on Iran. After that the Americans will realise that their real friend was not Pakistan but India because of its bigger market and they will ask Pakistan to end the jehad in Kashmir calling it terrorism.
America will use chemical weapons!
Quoted in Insaf, Pakistan`s nuclear scientist Sultan Bashiruddin stated that the United States will use chemical weapons during its invasion of Afghanistan, which will have sinister effect on Pakistani territory too. He said that America had already planned the bombing and is prepared to use lethal chemicals.
Don`t pay income tax!
According to Insaf 55 percent of the businesses in Pakistan were running without paying income tax. Most traders when contacted pretended not to know what income tax was and put forward their ignorance of taxation as an excuse not to pay taxes.
Mulla Umar married Osama`s daughter
According to Khabrain, the ruler of Afghanistan Mulla Umar married the daughter of Osama bin Laden in 1998 and there were rumours that Osama bin Laden also married the daughter of Mulla Umar. Mulla Umar is 40 years old and sits on his charpai while holding his cabinet meetings. He wrote important orders on bits of papers and called himself a servant of Islam.
Taliban don`t have good generals
Quoted in Insaf, ex-COAS General (Retd) Jehangir Karamat said that America will not land its own troops in Afghanistan but will use the Northern Alliance as its spearhead. He said Rashid Dostam could organise the Alliance and that there was no good generals like him with the Taliban. He said Taliban were in the interest of Islamabad and any other government in Kabul could increase Pakistan`s problems, and that the Frontier was safe because of the Taliban.
Juma Namangani bigger threat
According to Nawa-e-Waqt, Juma Namangani of Ferghana Valley in Tajikistan was a bigger threat to the world than Osama bin Laden because he had two thousand warriors with him and was operating in a region in the Pamirs that was not easily accessible. He threatened the life of the Uzbek president Karimov. He made money from drug smuggling and took handouts from Osama bin Laden and wanted to bring about a Taliban-style order in the Central Asian republics. (He went secretly to Tajikistan from Pakistan after shaving off his beard).
America will stay back
Famous poet columnist Zafar Iqbal wrote in daily Pakistan that even America was not able to co