In Search of the Moderate Muslim
Farzana Versey October 28, 2001
#415 Posted by nasah on November 7, 2001 12:07:36 am
``If God had wanted people, whose sole profession is religion, to run Islamic societies, don`t you think most of Muhammad`s colleagues would have had religion as their profession; or Muhammad himself would have been part of the clergy?
This does not mean studying religion is not a good thing in an Islamic society. But no where, in Muhammad`s life, is it indicated that the Islamic clergy, by definition, is to have the authority to pass fatwas, laws, and decide how an Islamic state is to be governed.`` (Romair)
Good point, Romair.
You are exactly right -- Mohammad never claimed anything more than being a mortal human -- and never defined a place for clergy in Islam – just the opposite -- he deliberately avoided emulation of Rabbinical or Christian priesthood.
In fact Islam in some ways was an earliest revolt against the priestly splendor and decadence of Roman Catholicism and Orthodox Christian church.
In my opinion the genius of Mohammed was to present Islam -- 1000 years before Luther, and Calvin -- as first attempt at ``Protestant Reformation`` of Christianity and Judaism -- (by declaring Jesus a mortal human being not God)-- and by keeping the religion away from the clutches of a corrupt burgeoning hierarchy of Popes, Cardinals Bishops and Rabbis.
That REFORM -- because it was so radical and so well ahead of its time -- failed to influence Christianity or Judaism of that era -- instead ushered into a new religion -- Islam.
Nevertheless it did finally influence Christianity by giving birth to Protestantism in 1500 AD.
Ironically it was approximately the same time that Islam retrograded itself into the hands of Muftis, Ayetollahs, Pirs, Mullahs, Maulanas and Maulvis.
This does not mean studying religion is not a good thing in an Islamic society. But no where, in Muhammad`s life, is it indicated that the Islamic clergy, by definition, is to have the authority to pass fatwas, laws, and decide how an Islamic state is to be governed.`` (Romair)
Good point, Romair.
You are exactly right -- Mohammad never claimed anything more than being a mortal human -- and never defined a place for clergy in Islam – just the opposite -- he deliberately avoided emulation of Rabbinical or Christian priesthood.
In fact Islam in some ways was an earliest revolt against the priestly splendor and decadence of Roman Catholicism and Orthodox Christian church.
In my opinion the genius of Mohammed was to present Islam -- 1000 years before Luther, and Calvin -- as first attempt at ``Protestant Reformation`` of Christianity and Judaism -- (by declaring Jesus a mortal human being not God)-- and by keeping the religion away from the clutches of a corrupt burgeoning hierarchy of Popes, Cardinals Bishops and Rabbis.
That REFORM -- because it was so radical and so well ahead of its time -- failed to influence Christianity or Judaism of that era -- instead ushered into a new religion -- Islam.
Nevertheless it did finally influence Christianity by giving birth to Protestantism in 1500 AD.
Ironically it was approximately the same time that Islam retrograded itself into the hands of Muftis, Ayetollahs, Pirs, Mullahs, Maulanas and Maulvis.
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#414 Posted by jay on November 7, 2001 12:07:36 am
Gymno 376,
KERALA MUSLIMS,
The conversion of the ruler of kerala, Cheraman Perumal, to islam by the very man himself is from ``kerala Charitram`` ( means history of kerala) by T.K. Gangadharan, Published by Calicut University Press.
Now that I have re-read it after decades, let me elaborate,
Story of this conversion is from a book Origin of kerala ( keralolpathi) origianaly in palm leaves, but first published by Hermann Gundert in 1843. Perumal married the sister of an Arab king, changed his name to Tajuddin.
Shaik Saineddin, an arab traveller who came to calicut in 11 cetury records the above story as as `` a common and ancient tradition ( tradition is not the exact word, it ``parambariam`` if you know malayalam).
Logan Williams, `` malabar Manual 1951, reviewed the historical evidence of the story and confirmed it.
So Gymno, the bottom line is, having known the north indian muslims, and extensive interaction with the pakistanis on chowk, I can assure you, the islam of kerala is very different from any other. It is asthough, a different religion. The fatwas and the jihad they have no hesitaion to redicule as irrelevant, while the years of education have failed even the YLH, he even shivers at the thought of writing about abdus salam a kafir, and it is fatwable in pakistan.
regards
jay
Infact the islam of indonesia is very similar to the kerala version, the arab merchants apparently went furthe on to indonesia.
KERALA MUSLIMS,
The conversion of the ruler of kerala, Cheraman Perumal, to islam by the very man himself is from ``kerala Charitram`` ( means history of kerala) by T.K. Gangadharan, Published by Calicut University Press.
Now that I have re-read it after decades, let me elaborate,
Story of this conversion is from a book Origin of kerala ( keralolpathi) origianaly in palm leaves, but first published by Hermann Gundert in 1843. Perumal married the sister of an Arab king, changed his name to Tajuddin.
Shaik Saineddin, an arab traveller who came to calicut in 11 cetury records the above story as as `` a common and ancient tradition ( tradition is not the exact word, it ``parambariam`` if you know malayalam).
Logan Williams, `` malabar Manual 1951, reviewed the historical evidence of the story and confirmed it.
So Gymno, the bottom line is, having known the north indian muslims, and extensive interaction with the pakistanis on chowk, I can assure you, the islam of kerala is very different from any other. It is asthough, a different religion. The fatwas and the jihad they have no hesitaion to redicule as irrelevant, while the years of education have failed even the YLH, he even shivers at the thought of writing about abdus salam a kafir, and it is fatwable in pakistan.
regards
jay
Infact the islam of indonesia is very similar to the kerala version, the arab merchants apparently went furthe on to indonesia.
#413 Posted by Eklavya on November 7, 2001 12:07:36 am
Drumz,
If you read # 412, you should get a flavor of the argument I made in my last post. Asif Naqshbandi is surely an honorable man who is, on a personal level, nonviolent. I intend no disrespect toward him. What I would like to point out is that his is not a lone voice. He represents a nontrivial group of British people who could not be accused of penury or extreme material deprivation. Anyone who doubts the veracity of that assertion, should check out a few old issues of some of the youth magazines coming out of the U.K. or even Australia.
Again, my argument is not Islam-specific. It is a general argument that cuts across religions. Religious fanaticism has its own dynamic. Material conditions can be (and are) exploited in the service of religious fanaticism, but they are not the causal factors leading to religious fanaticism.
If you read # 412, you should get a flavor of the argument I made in my last post. Asif Naqshbandi is surely an honorable man who is, on a personal level, nonviolent. I intend no disrespect toward him. What I would like to point out is that his is not a lone voice. He represents a nontrivial group of British people who could not be accused of penury or extreme material deprivation. Anyone who doubts the veracity of that assertion, should check out a few old issues of some of the youth magazines coming out of the U.K. or even Australia.
Again, my argument is not Islam-specific. It is a general argument that cuts across religions. Religious fanaticism has its own dynamic. Material conditions can be (and are) exploited in the service of religious fanaticism, but they are not the causal factors leading to religious fanaticism.
#412 Posted by Fatimah on November 7, 2001 12:07:36 am
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectNh.asp?cid=151449
Islam Is For Peace And Not Terrorism
FIROZ BAKHT AHMED
O umpteen non-Muslim friends of mine, Islam is an intolerant and aggressively proselytising religion whose followers enforce conversion under the threat of death, destroy shrines and idols of other religions and indulge in terrorism in the name of religion.
This is because religions are often judged by what their most debased, fanatical and intolerant followers do.
This holds true in the case of Islam. Whenever there’s a tragedy of the kind like the Afghan war, the Babri Masjid imbroglio, the triple talaq or the cases of fatwas against author Salman Rushdie’s Satanic Verses or Taslima Nasreen’s Lajja, a quarrel over Islam begins and it appears that there are many Islams and as many forms of jehad.
There is the Islam that Osama bin Laden follows. Then there is the Islam adhered to by the Muslim intellectuals or moderate clerics like Mufti Mukarram, the Imam of the ‘Shahi’ Masjid Fatehpuri.
Yet another form is propagated by politicians. The question is what exactly is real Islam? Whatever the answer to that may be, Islam is certainly not what the Osama bin Ladens practise or what the so-called Kashmiri jehadis espouse.
Some might even ask whether Islam is a conglomeration of all these forms? Certainly not. Islam propagates peace. It means submission before the Almighty. It is not submission to terrorism.
Besides, terrorists are neither Muslims nor Christians; neither Hindus nor Sikhs. The religion of terror is quite unlike the traditional religions. It’s altogether a different concept.
Terrorism is the murder of the innocent as happened in the case of mass murder at the World Trade Center. It is the violence American forces are perpetrating on innocent Afghan civilians.
There can be no excuse for such acts whichever quarter they may come from.
Besides, terrorism is not the pursuit of legitimate complaints by illegitimate means.
All acts of terror are anti-Islam and anti-jehad. The terrorist will claim one or another religious or social grievances as a cover for his insidious and ulterior motives. All killers do so ‘‘for building a better world’’.
It is mentioned in the holy Qur’an that the needy, the handicapped, the orphans and the hapless be helped. It has never said that a follower of Islam should be not helped or sympathised with.
In fact, it is bigotry and hatred that results in enmity. A man blinded by nationalistic bigotry can never be tolerant and sympathetic towards other religions and nations.
Islam is opposed to this. It considers all creatures of God as one family. Prophet Mohammed once told Hazrat Mohammed Abdullah bin Masood that all creatures constitute the family of God and man is God’s most beloved. It finally implies that he who serves God’s creation, is nearest to Him.
When we speak of human rights, peace and service to mankind in Islam, we really mean that these rights have been granted to us by God and not by any king or any legislative assembly.
Therefore, no one has the right to abrogate or withdraw them. They are not like basic human rights that are written on paper and denied in actual life.
They are concrete sets of laws for peace and mutual co-existence. They are not like the shariah courts.
True, Islam symbolises the security of life and property, protection of honour and the right to protest against tyranny towards men, women and children.
For the eternal goal, the path is that our faith must be true and sincere. We must be prepared to show it in deeds of charity to our fellow beings no matter what faith they follow. We must be good, law-abiding citizens supporting social causes and organisations.
Our own individual soul must be firm and unshaken in all circumstances. This is the standard by which a particular mode of conduct is judged as good or bad.
This standard of judgment provides the nucleus around which the entire moral conduct should revolve. Thus by setting God’s pleasure as the objective of man’s life, Islam has furnished the highest possible standard of morality.
And God is most pleased when he sees that humanity is involved in mutual co-operation and harmonious co-existence.
This is bound to provide limitless avenues for the moral evolution of our race. It ensures that the affairs of life, instead of being dominated by selfish desires and petty interests, must be regulated by norms of compatibility.
Islam Is For Peace And Not Terrorism
FIROZ BAKHT AHMED
O umpteen non-Muslim friends of mine, Islam is an intolerant and aggressively proselytising religion whose followers enforce conversion under the threat of death, destroy shrines and idols of other religions and indulge in terrorism in the name of religion.
This is because religions are often judged by what their most debased, fanatical and intolerant followers do.
This holds true in the case of Islam. Whenever there’s a tragedy of the kind like the Afghan war, the Babri Masjid imbroglio, the triple talaq or the cases of fatwas against author Salman Rushdie’s Satanic Verses or Taslima Nasreen’s Lajja, a quarrel over Islam begins and it appears that there are many Islams and as many forms of jehad.
There is the Islam that Osama bin Laden follows. Then there is the Islam adhered to by the Muslim intellectuals or moderate clerics like Mufti Mukarram, the Imam of the ‘Shahi’ Masjid Fatehpuri.
Yet another form is propagated by politicians. The question is what exactly is real Islam? Whatever the answer to that may be, Islam is certainly not what the Osama bin Ladens practise or what the so-called Kashmiri jehadis espouse.
Some might even ask whether Islam is a conglomeration of all these forms? Certainly not. Islam propagates peace. It means submission before the Almighty. It is not submission to terrorism.
Besides, terrorists are neither Muslims nor Christians; neither Hindus nor Sikhs. The religion of terror is quite unlike the traditional religions. It’s altogether a different concept.
Terrorism is the murder of the innocent as happened in the case of mass murder at the World Trade Center. It is the violence American forces are perpetrating on innocent Afghan civilians.
There can be no excuse for such acts whichever quarter they may come from.
Besides, terrorism is not the pursuit of legitimate complaints by illegitimate means.
All acts of terror are anti-Islam and anti-jehad. The terrorist will claim one or another religious or social grievances as a cover for his insidious and ulterior motives. All killers do so ‘‘for building a better world’’.
It is mentioned in the holy Qur’an that the needy, the handicapped, the orphans and the hapless be helped. It has never said that a follower of Islam should be not helped or sympathised with.
In fact, it is bigotry and hatred that results in enmity. A man blinded by nationalistic bigotry can never be tolerant and sympathetic towards other religions and nations.
Islam is opposed to this. It considers all creatures of God as one family. Prophet Mohammed once told Hazrat Mohammed Abdullah bin Masood that all creatures constitute the family of God and man is God’s most beloved. It finally implies that he who serves God’s creation, is nearest to Him.
When we speak of human rights, peace and service to mankind in Islam, we really mean that these rights have been granted to us by God and not by any king or any legislative assembly.
Therefore, no one has the right to abrogate or withdraw them. They are not like basic human rights that are written on paper and denied in actual life.
They are concrete sets of laws for peace and mutual co-existence. They are not like the shariah courts.
True, Islam symbolises the security of life and property, protection of honour and the right to protest against tyranny towards men, women and children.
For the eternal goal, the path is that our faith must be true and sincere. We must be prepared to show it in deeds of charity to our fellow beings no matter what faith they follow. We must be good, law-abiding citizens supporting social causes and organisations.
Our own individual soul must be firm and unshaken in all circumstances. This is the standard by which a particular mode of conduct is judged as good or bad.
This standard of judgment provides the nucleus around which the entire moral conduct should revolve. Thus by setting God’s pleasure as the objective of man’s life, Islam has furnished the highest possible standard of morality.
And God is most pleased when he sees that humanity is involved in mutual co-operation and harmonious co-existence.
This is bound to provide limitless avenues for the moral evolution of our race. It ensures that the affairs of life, instead of being dominated by selfish desires and petty interests, must be regulated by norms of compatibility.
#411 Posted by Eklavya on November 7, 2001 12:07:36 am
DRUMZ # 415
Drumz, the linkage between poverty or war and religious extremism is at best a tenuous one. There are people, second or third generation British subjects, travelling from the United Kingdom to fight along side Taliban in Afganistan. The hijackers of the four American airplanes were not poor people, at least not as poor as many people in the villages of Bihar or Mexico.
Even within India, religious fanaticism is found not in the poor villages and towns of Bihar or Orrisa but in major Indian towns, among the affluent. On average, the financial holdings of RSS members or BJP members are probably highest among all political groups in India. Both Muslim Leagues and Akali Dal represent, largely, the interests of the relatively better off segments of their communities.
Drumz, IMO, there is a huge and massive misunderstanding among some and delibate misrepresentation on the part of others that fanaticism is a function primarily of the material conditions. That is a Marxist approach to viewing the world, and although I have nothing against Marxism per se, Marxism never did understand religion. The problem, Drumz, isn`t so much with the twenty year old kid who goes wearing a mask and blows himself up thinking he is part of some religious war. The problem resides with the people who recruit such kids, train them, and fund them, and then use them as cannon fodder. These are not poor people.
On the other hand, some of the most peaceful people on earth are also among the poorest. Widespread fanaticism or murderous rage is, above all, an ideological condition, not a material one.
Drumz, the linkage between poverty or war and religious extremism is at best a tenuous one. There are people, second or third generation British subjects, travelling from the United Kingdom to fight along side Taliban in Afganistan. The hijackers of the four American airplanes were not poor people, at least not as poor as many people in the villages of Bihar or Mexico.
Even within India, religious fanaticism is found not in the poor villages and towns of Bihar or Orrisa but in major Indian towns, among the affluent. On average, the financial holdings of RSS members or BJP members are probably highest among all political groups in India. Both Muslim Leagues and Akali Dal represent, largely, the interests of the relatively better off segments of their communities.
Drumz, IMO, there is a huge and massive misunderstanding among some and delibate misrepresentation on the part of others that fanaticism is a function primarily of the material conditions. That is a Marxist approach to viewing the world, and although I have nothing against Marxism per se, Marxism never did understand religion. The problem, Drumz, isn`t so much with the twenty year old kid who goes wearing a mask and blows himself up thinking he is part of some religious war. The problem resides with the people who recruit such kids, train them, and fund them, and then use them as cannon fodder. These are not poor people.
On the other hand, some of the most peaceful people on earth are also among the poorest. Widespread fanaticism or murderous rage is, above all, an ideological condition, not a material one.
#410 Posted by ZafarA on November 7, 2001 12:07:36 am
Reply PM # 408, 410
`To what extent is being a Muslim AND being recognized as one a matter on which Islamic jurispendence can be brought to bear? Hisorically/tradionally/theologically, that is.”
Theologically, just say the shahadath three times (witnesses?) and you’re in.
Historically, apostasy (very slippery concept) is you DECLARING that you are no longer in.
Recently there has been a fashion for using fatwas declaring people apostate as tools to silence critics within the Muslim community.
Can’t think of their names but there are a couple of Egyptian intellectuals who have had fatwas of apostacy issued against them by some reactionary toad in Al-Azhar. Following which they have had to leave the country to avoid being killed. A nasty side effect of this is that this means that their marriages are declared annulled. It’s a nasty business and has NO theological backing – as far as I know - it’s entirely a method of control by “gande naali ke keede”.
Glad to hear that you are safe, and feeling secure. I am very glad that (based on what you tell me) the ordinary people of Pakistan are not being swayed by the jahils who commited that recent crime against minorities. Stay safe!!!!
“Wonder if these despicable actions are denounced in Friday khutbas? Or if these extremist nuts will see acquiesence in the silence of the `moral` silent majority.”
If not I would like to know why not. And I’ll be asking – here on Chowk.
Zafar
`To what extent is being a Muslim AND being recognized as one a matter on which Islamic jurispendence can be brought to bear? Hisorically/tradionally/theologically, that is.”
Theologically, just say the shahadath three times (witnesses?) and you’re in.
Historically, apostasy (very slippery concept) is you DECLARING that you are no longer in.
Recently there has been a fashion for using fatwas declaring people apostate as tools to silence critics within the Muslim community.
Can’t think of their names but there are a couple of Egyptian intellectuals who have had fatwas of apostacy issued against them by some reactionary toad in Al-Azhar. Following which they have had to leave the country to avoid being killed. A nasty side effect of this is that this means that their marriages are declared annulled. It’s a nasty business and has NO theological backing – as far as I know - it’s entirely a method of control by “gande naali ke keede”.
Glad to hear that you are safe, and feeling secure. I am very glad that (based on what you tell me) the ordinary people of Pakistan are not being swayed by the jahils who commited that recent crime against minorities. Stay safe!!!!
“Wonder if these despicable actions are denounced in Friday khutbas? Or if these extremist nuts will see acquiesence in the silence of the `moral` silent majority.”
If not I would like to know why not. And I’ll be asking – here on Chowk.
Zafar
#409 Posted by ZafarA on November 7, 2001 12:07:36 am
Reply AD # 411
AD
“Muslims on the other hand, need some reason or the other to FEEL insecure. Instead of introspection, instead of a religous revival where they rexamine the Islam of the 7th century, they look at non muslims as the source of all their problems.”
Do we? Do we REALLY? Who have you been talking to - some unrepresentative soundbite addict like Bukhari?
Buddy, believe me when I say most Muslims in India would be DELIGHTED AND RELIEVED if the only problems they faced were of their own making. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
Just as you advise Indian Muslims to introspect about their own behaviour in contributing to the community’s problems rather than focusing exclusively on external factors, let me invite you to
1) Introspect about your own community’s behaviour within itself (whatever your community is, and not how it deals with ther religious communities btw) as a factor contributing to its problems, AND since you bring it up, to
2) Introspect about the external factors contributing to the problems of the Muslim community in India. (One of which MAY be segments of your community – whatever it is.)
Please note – I am NOT saying that the problems of any group of people are all internally or externally caused. But we should each think about what we can most readily have an influence on by changing our own behavior before we start offering other people specific advice on how to change theirs. That would be less comfortable, but far more decent, behaviour.
Best wishes,
Zafar
PS Haj subsidy, Mansarovar Parikrama subsidy, what’s the difference? And what`s your point?
AD
“Muslims on the other hand, need some reason or the other to FEEL insecure. Instead of introspection, instead of a religous revival where they rexamine the Islam of the 7th century, they look at non muslims as the source of all their problems.”
Do we? Do we REALLY? Who have you been talking to - some unrepresentative soundbite addict like Bukhari?
Buddy, believe me when I say most Muslims in India would be DELIGHTED AND RELIEVED if the only problems they faced were of their own making. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
Just as you advise Indian Muslims to introspect about their own behaviour in contributing to the community’s problems rather than focusing exclusively on external factors, let me invite you to
1) Introspect about your own community’s behaviour within itself (whatever your community is, and not how it deals with ther religious communities btw) as a factor contributing to its problems, AND since you bring it up, to
2) Introspect about the external factors contributing to the problems of the Muslim community in India. (One of which MAY be segments of your community – whatever it is.)
Please note – I am NOT saying that the problems of any group of people are all internally or externally caused. But we should each think about what we can most readily have an influence on by changing our own behavior before we start offering other people specific advice on how to change theirs. That would be less comfortable, but far more decent, behaviour.
Best wishes,
Zafar
PS Haj subsidy, Mansarovar Parikrama subsidy, what’s the difference? And what`s your point?
#408 Posted by ZafarA on November 7, 2001 12:07:36 am
Reply AD # 411
AD
“Muslims on the other hand, need some reason or the other to FEEL insecure. Instead of introspection, instead of a religous revival where they rexamine the Islam of the 7th century, they look at non muslims as the source of all their problems.”
Do we? Do we REALLY?
Buddy, believe me when I say most Muslims in India would be DELIGHTED AND RELIEVED if the only problems they faced were of their own making. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
Just as you advise Indian Muslims to introspect about their own behaviour in contributing to the community’s problems rather than focusing exclusively on external factors, let me invite you to
1) Introspect about your own community’s behaviour within itself (whatever your community is, and not how it deals with ther religious communities btw) as a factor contributing to its problems rather than focusing on convincing yourself that Muslims were responsible for all the bad things, AND since you bring it up, to
2) Introspect HONESTLY about the external factors contributing to the problems of the Muslim community in India. (One of which MAY be segments of your community – whatever it is.)
Please note – I am NOT saying that the problems of any group of people are all internally or externally caused. But we should each think first about what we can most readily by changing our own behavior BEFORE we start offering other people specific advice on how to change theirs. That would be less comfortable, but far more decent, behaviour.
Best wishes,
Zafar
PS Haj subsidy, Mansarovar Parikrama subsidy, what’s the difference? What`s your point?
AD
“Muslims on the other hand, need some reason or the other to FEEL insecure. Instead of introspection, instead of a religous revival where they rexamine the Islam of the 7th century, they look at non muslims as the source of all their problems.”
Do we? Do we REALLY?
Buddy, believe me when I say most Muslims in India would be DELIGHTED AND RELIEVED if the only problems they faced were of their own making. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
Just as you advise Indian Muslims to introspect about their own behaviour in contributing to the community’s problems rather than focusing exclusively on external factors, let me invite you to
1) Introspect about your own community’s behaviour within itself (whatever your community is, and not how it deals with ther religious communities btw) as a factor contributing to its problems rather than focusing on convincing yourself that Muslims were responsible for all the bad things, AND since you bring it up, to
2) Introspect HONESTLY about the external factors contributing to the problems of the Muslim community in India. (One of which MAY be segments of your community – whatever it is.)
Please note – I am NOT saying that the problems of any group of people are all internally or externally caused. But we should each think first about what we can most readily by changing our own behavior BEFORE we start offering other people specific advice on how to change theirs. That would be less comfortable, but far more decent, behaviour.
Best wishes,
Zafar
PS Haj subsidy, Mansarovar Parikrama subsidy, what’s the difference? What`s your point?
#407 Posted by rajanjua on November 7, 2001 12:07:36 am
re: PM
I thought I had the irrationality covered in the ``mental problems`` part :-). You are ofcourse right - But along with irrationality there is insecurity, fear and downright ignorance. The origin of Shariah itself is in fear (according to Iqbal) - The Gods of Naqshbandi, i.e., his Imams wrote the Shariah out of fear of early Islamic rationalists, such as ibn Rushd and ibn Sina. They went to great details to ensure that there was no room left for any revision. They thought that they were protecting and defending Islam. That`s the other problem of fanatics in every religion - Somehow they are convinced that their religion is in perpetual danger and needs their defense. I think ``islam khatray may hay`` & ``islam aik mukamal zabta hayat hay`` are the most popular slogans of these nutcases. Someone ought to tell these idiots that the ``Almighty`` and His message does`nt need any protection.
Regards.
re: sattar2
The treatment of Ahmedis and other minotities in Pakistan is despicable. I agree with all of what you say. I also think its time for the silent majority in Pakistan to become a bit vocal and also do something. It would be great if people stop signing that ridiculous application for passport.
Reagrds.
I thought I had the irrationality covered in the ``mental problems`` part :-). You are ofcourse right - But along with irrationality there is insecurity, fear and downright ignorance. The origin of Shariah itself is in fear (according to Iqbal) - The Gods of Naqshbandi, i.e., his Imams wrote the Shariah out of fear of early Islamic rationalists, such as ibn Rushd and ibn Sina. They went to great details to ensure that there was no room left for any revision. They thought that they were protecting and defending Islam. That`s the other problem of fanatics in every religion - Somehow they are convinced that their religion is in perpetual danger and needs their defense. I think ``islam khatray may hay`` & ``islam aik mukamal zabta hayat hay`` are the most popular slogans of these nutcases. Someone ought to tell these idiots that the ``Almighty`` and His message does`nt need any protection.
Regards.
re: sattar2
The treatment of Ahmedis and other minotities in Pakistan is despicable. I agree with all of what you say. I also think its time for the silent majority in Pakistan to become a bit vocal and also do something. It would be great if people stop signing that ridiculous application for passport.
Reagrds.
#406 Posted by rajanjua on November 7, 2001 12:07:36 am
re: PM
I thought I had the irrationality covered in the ``mental problems`` part :-). You are ofcourse right - But along with irrationality there is insecurity, fear and downright ignorance. The origin of Shariah itself is in fear (according to Iqbal) - The Gods of Naqshbandi, i.e., his Imams wrote the Shariah out of fear of early Islamic rationalists, such as ibn Rushd and ibn Sina. They went to great details to ensure that there was no room left for any revision. They thought that they were protecting and defending Islam. That`s the other problem of fanatics in every religion - Somehow they are convinced that their religion is in perpetual danger and needs their defense. I think ``islam khatray may hay`` & ``islam aik mukamal zabta hayat hay`` are the most popular slogans of these nutcases. Someone ought to tell these idiots that the ``Almighty`` and His message does`nt need any protection.
Regards.
re: sattar2
The treatment of Ahmedis and other minotities in Pakistan is despicable. I agree with all of what you say. I also think its time for the silent majority in Pakistan to become a bit vocal and also do something. It would be great if people stop signing that ridiculous application for passport.
Reagrds.
I thought I had the irrationality covered in the ``mental problems`` part :-). You are ofcourse right - But along with irrationality there is insecurity, fear and downright ignorance. The origin of Shariah itself is in fear (according to Iqbal) - The Gods of Naqshbandi, i.e., his Imams wrote the Shariah out of fear of early Islamic rationalists, such as ibn Rushd and ibn Sina. They went to great details to ensure that there was no room left for any revision. They thought that they were protecting and defending Islam. That`s the other problem of fanatics in every religion - Somehow they are convinced that their religion is in perpetual danger and needs their defense. I think ``islam khatray may hay`` & ``islam aik mukamal zabta hayat hay`` are the most popular slogans of these nutcases. Someone ought to tell these idiots that the ``Almighty`` and His message does`nt need any protection.
Regards.
re: sattar2
The treatment of Ahmedis and other minotities in Pakistan is despicable. I agree with all of what you say. I also think its time for the silent majority in Pakistan to become a bit vocal and also do something. It would be great if people stop signing that ridiculous application for passport.
Reagrds.
#405 Posted by sigalph235 on November 7, 2001 12:07:36 am
re rsaxena 400
Thank you fot the support. Between the naqshbandi-urstruly Jamaat and the vipul-gowardhan-maheshG Dal, I sometimes feel like a small, small, minority.
BTW, Saxenaji, I`ll tell you that although I`m an unabashed GOPer, this MArk Green fellow looks very attractive as Mayor.
Thank you fot the support. Between the naqshbandi-urstruly Jamaat and the vipul-gowardhan-maheshG Dal, I sometimes feel like a small, small, minority.
BTW, Saxenaji, I`ll tell you that although I`m an unabashed GOPer, this MArk Green fellow looks very attractive as Mayor.
#404 Posted by sigalph235 on November 7, 2001 12:07:36 am
re maheshG 401
``Sigalph, I hope you will sign the petition against ethnic cleansing of Hindus in Bangladesh.``
I have already signed on to the petition of BAFI(BD-US Foundation) urging the Home Minister to vigilantly prosecute those who are taking law into their own hands. Yesterday I had a chat with Ambassador Karim(e-chat) on the issue as well and asked him to raise it with the Foreign Minister who is in Washington.
But none of this I do because I love Hindus or Muslims or because I agree to this sensational `ethnic cleansing` bit some of you find convenient. I believe every life is sacred and the Republic has a duty to protect it, no matter what the motive of the perpetrators.
That said, in the same spirit as your request, I hope you sign the AI petition asking the Govt of India to prosecute fully the murderers of the STaines, the burners of the Gujrati churches, and the killers of Sopore.
You see, Indians do not have a monopoly on clean hands when it comes to bigotry.
``Sigalph, I hope you will sign the petition against ethnic cleansing of Hindus in Bangladesh.``
I have already signed on to the petition of BAFI(BD-US Foundation) urging the Home Minister to vigilantly prosecute those who are taking law into their own hands. Yesterday I had a chat with Ambassador Karim(e-chat) on the issue as well and asked him to raise it with the Foreign Minister who is in Washington.
But none of this I do because I love Hindus or Muslims or because I agree to this sensational `ethnic cleansing` bit some of you find convenient. I believe every life is sacred and the Republic has a duty to protect it, no matter what the motive of the perpetrators.
That said, in the same spirit as your request, I hope you sign the AI petition asking the Govt of India to prosecute fully the murderers of the STaines, the burners of the Gujrati churches, and the killers of Sopore.
You see, Indians do not have a monopoly on clean hands when it comes to bigotry.
#403 Posted by AAmir on November 7, 2001 12:07:36 am
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#402 Posted by AAmir on November 7, 2001 12:07:36 am
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#401 Posted by hamzadafaqui on November 7, 2001 12:07:36 am
Why wait fro government to enforce sharia laws.Here is a good example of handling sharia matters as pertains to banking,economics,and finance.
An isntituition or nation is good enough as its members or people who are the beneficiaries and/or enforcers.
Please visit www.islamiQ.com ----for some eyepopping happenings.
IslamiQ.com`s Shari`ah Board
IslamiQ.com`s credibility and acceptance within the global Islamic community is based on the strength of its Shari`ah Board, which is composed of three internationally-renowned Shari`ah scholars. Together with the IslamiQ.com`s Shari`ah Advisor, the Shari`ah Board is empowered to develop rules and practices relating to Islamic financial products and services that are in accordance with Islamic principles.
The members of IslamiQ.com`s Shari`ah Board are:
Justice Mohammad Taqi Usmani
Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani, Chairman of IslamiQ.com.com`s Shari`ah Board, is a well-known and highly-respected figure in the field of Shari`ah, particularly within the area of global finance. He currently holds various advisory positions within the Islamic finance industry.
Muhammad Taqi Usmani has vast experience in Islamic Shari`ah, given his 39 years of teaching various subjects on Islam and having served as a Judge in the Shariat Appellate Bench, Supreme Court of Pakistan since 1982.
Since 1990, he has edited magazines in English and Urdu, as well as contributed articles and write-ups on various issues in leading Pakistani newspapers.
Born in Pakistan, Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani received his LLB from Karachi University in the late 60s and also graduated from Punjab University in 1970. Prior to that, he received his tertiary education from Darul Uloom, Karachi.
Among the other positions which he currently holds are:
Deputy Chairman/Permanent Member of Islamic Fiqh Academy, Jeddah
Vice President, Darul Uloom Karachi
Chairman; Center for Islamic Economics Pakistan since 1991
Member, Commission for Islamization of Economy, Govt. of Pakistan
Member, Council of the Islamic Research Institute, Govt. of Pakistan
Chairman, Shari`ah Board Saudi American Bank, Jeddah
Chairman, Shari`ah Board Ibn Khaldoun International Islamic Equity Fund, London
Chairman, Shari`ah Board Robert Fleming Oasis Fund, Luxembourg
Chairman, Shari`ah Board Citi Islamic Investment Bank, Bahrain
Chairman, Shari`ah Board Amana Investments Ltd., Sri Lanka
Vice Chairman, Shari`ah Board Abu Dhabi Islamic Bank, Abu Dhabi
Dr Abdul Sattar Abu Ghuddah
Aside from his position in IslamiQ.com`s Shari`ah Board, Dr. Abdul Sattar Abu Ghuddah currently holds a dual post at Al-Baraka Investment & Development Company as the Director of its Department of Financial Instruments as well as a Shari`ah Board member. He has been Shari`ah advisor of the Dallah Al-Baraka Group, since 1991. He is also an active member of the Islamic Fiqh Academy in Jeddah and the Accounting & Auditing Standards Board of Islamic Financial Institutions.
Dr. Abdul Sattar began his career by teaching Islamic studies and Arabic language. He has since taught Fiqh, Islamic studies and Arabic in Riyadh and cultivated an expertise in researching and compiling information for the Fiqh Encyclopedia in the Ministry of Awqaf (Endowments) and Islamic Affairs in Kuwait. Consequently he became a member of the Fatwa Board in the Ministry from 1982 to 1990. During the 80s, he was also seconded as a lecturer to the Faculty of Law and Shari`ah in Kuwait University.
Dr. Abdul Sattar has BAs in Islamic Shari`ah and in Law from Damascus University. He then went on to earn his MA in Shari`ah and Hadith from the renowned Azhar University before attaining his Ph.D. in Shari`ah and Comparative Fiqh from the same university.
Assoc. Prof. Dr. Mohd. Daud Bakar
``Dr. Mohd. Daud Bakar has played an instrumental role in the development of IslamiQ`s financial portals and products. An Associate Professor at the Department of Islamic and Family Law at the International Islamic University, Malaysia, Dr Mohd Daud obtained his Bachelor of Shari`ah from the University of Kuwait in 1988 and was later conferred with a Ph.D. from the University of St. Andrews, Scotland. He is now the Dean of the Centre for Postgraduate Studies at the International Islamic University Malaysia. Besides his teaching and research assignments, Dr Mohd Daud has been engaged primarily in providing Shari’ah consultancy, structuring and advisory services to various Islamic financial institutions.
Some commitments are noted below:
Member, Shari`ah Advisory Council of the Securities Commission, Malaysia
Member, Shari`ah Advisory Council, Central Bank of Malaysia
Shari`ah Advisor, Takaful Nasional Berhad
Shari`ah Advisor, HSBC Bank Malaysia
Shari’ah Advisor, Keppel Insurance (Takaful) Ltd, Singapore
Investment Committee Member, Dana Aman, Pacific Mutual Fund
Shari’ah Advisor, Malaysian Rating Corporation``
IslamiQ.com`s Shari`ah adviser
Dr Muhammad Imran Ashraf Usmani
Dr. Muhammad Imran, who has been actively involved with IslamiQ.com`s products since its inception, holds a Ph.D. in Islamic Economics. He is also the Shari`ah consultant for Al-Meezan Investment Bank Limited in Pakistan, which is a joint venture bank between Pakistan-Kuwait Investment Co. and Islamic Investment Company of Gulf, Bahrain.
Before pursuing his Ph.D., Dr Muhammad Imran received his M Phil in Islamic Economics, M.A in Arabic and Islamic studies, and a B.A in Economics and Political Science from the Karachi University, Pakistan. He began his career at the First Islamic Bank.
Dr Muhammad Imran has been teaching various aspects of Islam for the past 10 years in Jamia Darul Uloom University in Karachi, Pakistan. He also spends much of his time providing Shari`ah advice to several other Islamic banks and institutions and has written a number of books on Islam.
An isntituition or nation is good enough as its members or people who are the beneficiaries and/or enforcers.
Please visit www.islamiQ.com ----for some eyepopping happenings.
IslamiQ.com`s Shari`ah Board
IslamiQ.com`s credibility and acceptance within the global Islamic community is based on the strength of its Shari`ah Board, which is composed of three internationally-renowned Shari`ah scholars. Together with the IslamiQ.com`s Shari`ah Advisor, the Shari`ah Board is empowered to develop rules and practices relating to Islamic financial products and services that are in accordance with Islamic principles.
The members of IslamiQ.com`s Shari`ah Board are:
Justice Mohammad Taqi Usmani
Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani, Chairman of IslamiQ.com.com`s Shari`ah Board, is a well-known and highly-respected figure in the field of Shari`ah, particularly within the area of global finance. He currently holds various advisory positions within the Islamic finance industry.
Muhammad Taqi Usmani has vast experience in Islamic Shari`ah, given his 39 years of teaching various subjects on Islam and having served as a Judge in the Shariat Appellate Bench, Supreme Court of Pakistan since 1982.
Since 1990, he has edited magazines in English and Urdu, as well as contributed articles and write-ups on various issues in leading Pakistani newspapers.
Born in Pakistan, Justice Muhammad Taqi Usmani received his LLB from Karachi University in the late 60s and also graduated from Punjab University in 1970. Prior to that, he received his tertiary education from Darul Uloom, Karachi.
Among the other positions which he currently holds are:
Deputy Chairman/Permanent Member of Islamic Fiqh Academy, Jeddah
Vice President, Darul Uloom Karachi
Chairman; Center for Islamic Economics Pakistan since 1991
Member, Commission for Islamization of Economy, Govt. of Pakistan
Member, Council of the Islamic Research Institute, Govt. of Pakistan
Chairman, Shari`ah Board Saudi American Bank, Jeddah
Chairman, Shari`ah Board Ibn Khaldoun International Islamic Equity Fund, London
Chairman, Shari`ah Board Robert Fleming Oasis Fund, Luxembourg
Chairman, Shari`ah Board Citi Islamic Investment Bank, Bahrain
Chairman, Shari`ah Board Amana Investments Ltd., Sri Lanka
Vice Chairman, Shari`ah Board Abu Dhabi Islamic Bank, Abu Dhabi
Dr Abdul Sattar Abu Ghuddah
Aside from his position in IslamiQ.com`s Shari`ah Board, Dr. Abdul Sattar Abu Ghuddah currently holds a dual post at Al-Baraka Investment & Development Company as the Director of its Department of Financial Instruments as well as a Shari`ah Board member. He has been Shari`ah advisor of the Dallah Al-Baraka Group, since 1991. He is also an active member of the Islamic Fiqh Academy in Jeddah and the Accounting & Auditing Standards Board of Islamic Financial Institutions.
Dr. Abdul Sattar began his career by teaching Islamic studies and Arabic language. He has since taught Fiqh, Islamic studies and Arabic in Riyadh and cultivated an expertise in researching and compiling information for the Fiqh Encyclopedia in the Ministry of Awqaf (Endowments) and Islamic Affairs in Kuwait. Consequently he became a member of the Fatwa Board in the Ministry from 1982 to 1990. During the 80s, he was also seconded as a lecturer to the Faculty of Law and Shari`ah in Kuwait University.
Dr. Abdul Sattar has BAs in Islamic Shari`ah and in Law from Damascus University. He then went on to earn his MA in Shari`ah and Hadith from the renowned Azhar University before attaining his Ph.D. in Shari`ah and Comparative Fiqh from the same university.
Assoc. Prof. Dr. Mohd. Daud Bakar
``Dr. Mohd. Daud Bakar has played an instrumental role in the development of IslamiQ`s financial portals and products. An Associate Professor at the Department of Islamic and Family Law at the International Islamic University, Malaysia, Dr Mohd Daud obtained his Bachelor of Shari`ah from the University of Kuwait in 1988 and was later conferred with a Ph.D. from the University of St. Andrews, Scotland. He is now the Dean of the Centre for Postgraduate Studies at the International Islamic University Malaysia. Besides his teaching and research assignments, Dr Mohd Daud has been engaged primarily in providing Shari’ah consultancy, structuring and advisory services to various Islamic financial institutions.
Some commitments are noted below:
Member, Shari`ah Advisory Council of the Securities Commission, Malaysia
Member, Shari`ah Advisory Council, Central Bank of Malaysia
Shari`ah Advisor, Takaful Nasional Berhad
Shari`ah Advisor, HSBC Bank Malaysia
Shari’ah Advisor, Keppel Insurance (Takaful) Ltd, Singapore
Investment Committee Member, Dana Aman, Pacific Mutual Fund
Shari’ah Advisor, Malaysian Rating Corporation``
IslamiQ.com`s Shari`ah adviser
Dr Muhammad Imran Ashraf Usmani
Dr. Muhammad Imran, who has been actively involved with IslamiQ.com`s products since its inception, holds a Ph.D. in Islamic Economics. He is also the Shari`ah consultant for Al-Meezan Investment Bank Limited in Pakistan, which is a joint venture bank between Pakistan-Kuwait Investment Co. and Islamic Investment Company of Gulf, Bahrain.
Before pursuing his Ph.D., Dr Muhammad Imran received his M Phil in Islamic Economics, M.A in Arabic and Islamic studies, and a B.A in Economics and Political Science from the Karachi University, Pakistan. He began his career at the First Islamic Bank.
Dr Muhammad Imran has been teaching various aspects of Islam for the past 10 years in Jamia Darul Uloom University in Karachi, Pakistan. He also spends much of his time providing Shari`ah advice to several other Islamic banks and institutions and has written a number of books on Islam.
#400 Posted by Romair on November 6, 2001 7:54:23 pm
Asif Naqshbandi: #378: I vaguely remember reading a story in third grade about a woman who used to throw garbage on Prophet Muhammad, everytime he passed by her house. Do you recall how that story ended? Did Muhammad end up killing her? Any thoughts on why he did or did not kill her?
I have a pretty strong belief that Islam is one religion which does not ask for nor require a clergy. The clergy should be a reference for Muslims, it should not become the authority, or a layer of buerecracy between Muslims and God.
One only needs to go back to the life of Muhammad to get the answers. Unfortunately, people are unwilling to go that far, when they define Islam. They tend to stop at the Imams and, ``scholars,`` who came centuries after him. Forget about what people rightly or wrongly said after him. Look at what he did.
How did Muhammad earn his living? Was Muhammad a priest, or part of the clergy? Was that his profession? It never was. In his whole lifetime, he never became a priest/maulvi/clergy. He was a shepherd in his early life, then he became a travelling salesman, they he became a govt. servant/general/political leader. He never devoted his life to becoming a priest or maulvi.
If you look at the most prominent Muslims during the lifetime of Muhammad, you will find hardly any, if any, of them to be priests. Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman, Ali etc. were all businessmen, professionals, soldiers etc.
If God had wanted people, whose sole profession is religion, to run Islamic societies, don`t you think most of Muhammad`s colleagues would have had religion as their profession; or Muhammad himself would have been part of the clergy?
This does not mean studying religion is not a good thing in an Islamic society. But no where, in Muhammad`s life, is it indicated that the Islamic clergy, by definiton, is to have the authority to pass fatwas, laws, and decide how an Islamic state is to be governed. This is the job of the shepherds, the travelling salesmen, the businessmen, the soldiers, etc. of the Muslim society to decide. They should, of course, have knowledge of their religion, as well (this is where these groups lack nowdays).
Islam, by definition, combines state and religion; but it does so exactly in the opposite manner of what is being advocated, nowdays. It never declares the clergy should also run the country or decide what is wrong and right. It declares the shepherds, and the travelling salesmen etc. should also run the religion, a la Prophet Muhammad. This group should have knowledge of religion, as well. And it should use the clergy as a reference, if required. But it should always outrank the clergy in matters of state and society. Infact, in my opinion, in an ideal Islamic society, there would be no professional clergy.
Based on that, I do not agree with your concept of contacting, changing and following professinal imams and religious scholars. Religous scholars in Islam were never meant to be followed. It is not a leadership position of any kind in an Islamic society. If it were, then the biggest religious scholars would have become the Khalifas, after Muhammad. Religious scholars should be used as reference, much like professors are used as reference. They should not be used as leaders, or be considered decision makers. Unfortunately, many people in Islamic societies have elevated religious scholars beyond the domain they should enjoy in Islam. Many religious scholars have themselves attempted to indulge in politics and power accumulation, and have attempted to use their religious knowledge not to educate (like a professor) but to obtain power through religion. This is something that has destroyed Islamic societies. A person whose only professional knowledge is studying religion should be respected. However, his religious knowledge is about as relevant in running and leading a society, as it is relevant in flying an airplane. He is no different than a professor who has studied physics his whole life. Both their domains should be the univeristy classroom; not the presidency nor the supreme court.
I would be interested in your thoughts....
I have a pretty strong belief that Islam is one religion which does not ask for nor require a clergy. The clergy should be a reference for Muslims, it should not become the authority, or a layer of buerecracy between Muslims and God.
One only needs to go back to the life of Muhammad to get the answers. Unfortunately, people are unwilling to go that far, when they define Islam. They tend to stop at the Imams and, ``scholars,`` who came centuries after him. Forget about what people rightly or wrongly said after him. Look at what he did.
How did Muhammad earn his living? Was Muhammad a priest, or part of the clergy? Was that his profession? It never was. In his whole lifetime, he never became a priest/maulvi/clergy. He was a shepherd in his early life, then he became a travelling salesman, they he became a govt. servant/general/political leader. He never devoted his life to becoming a priest or maulvi.
If you look at the most prominent Muslims during the lifetime of Muhammad, you will find hardly any, if any, of them to be priests. Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman, Ali etc. were all businessmen, professionals, soldiers etc.
If God had wanted people, whose sole profession is religion, to run Islamic societies, don`t you think most of Muhammad`s colleagues would have had religion as their profession; or Muhammad himself would have been part of the clergy?
This does not mean studying religion is not a good thing in an Islamic society. But no where, in Muhammad`s life, is it indicated that the Islamic clergy, by definiton, is to have the authority to pass fatwas, laws, and decide how an Islamic state is to be governed. This is the job of the shepherds, the travelling salesmen, the businessmen, the soldiers, etc. of the Muslim society to decide. They should, of course, have knowledge of their religion, as well (this is where these groups lack nowdays).
Islam, by definition, combines state and religion; but it does so exactly in the opposite manner of what is being advocated, nowdays. It never declares the clergy should also run the country or decide what is wrong and right. It declares the shepherds, and the travelling salesmen etc. should also run the religion, a la Prophet Muhammad. This group should have knowledge of religion, as well. And it should use the clergy as a reference, if required. But it should always outrank the clergy in matters of state and society. Infact, in my opinion, in an ideal Islamic society, there would be no professional clergy.
Based on that, I do not agree with your concept of contacting, changing and following professinal imams and religious scholars. Religous scholars in Islam were never meant to be followed. It is not a leadership position of any kind in an Islamic society. If it were, then the biggest religious scholars would have become the Khalifas, after Muhammad. Religious scholars should be used as reference, much like professors are used as reference. They should not be used as leaders, or be considered decision makers. Unfortunately, many people in Islamic societies have elevated religious scholars beyond the domain they should enjoy in Islam. Many religious scholars have themselves attempted to indulge in politics and power accumulation, and have attempted to use their religious knowledge not to educate (like a professor) but to obtain power through religion. This is something that has destroyed Islamic societies. A person whose only professional knowledge is studying religion should be respected. However, his religious knowledge is about as relevant in running and leading a society, as it is relevant in flying an airplane. He is no different than a professor who has studied physics his whole life. Both their domains should be the univeristy classroom; not the presidency nor the supreme court.
I would be interested in your thoughts....
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