In Search of the Moderate Muslim

Arrested

Whatever Parsis may have suffered at the hands of Muslims in Iran as you suggest, they have been model citizens of Pakistan. In fact, they have been excellent citizens of both India and Pakistan.

Please learn something about Zoroastrianism. That religion has excercised profound influence on the development of a great many religious traditions that came later. It is amazing that this faith has survived, given its unfortunate circumstances, and that it continues to produce absolutely outstanding individuals, both men and women.

Godot #5 ``gave Pakistan about 15 years max to survive.``

I am intrigued by the frequent comment (over the past few decades now) that Pakistan will not survive. What happens if Pakistan does not survive? Will there be a sudden flash and a hole will appear on the ground where there used to be Pakistan? Or maybe there will be 8-10 different countries where there used to be one, some with nuclear bombs, some without. And each with it`s own little petty tyrant. Altaf ``torture cell`` Bhai in Karachistan, some Sindhi Wadera in Sindhistan, half-brain Nawaz Sharif the MardiMomin in the Lahoristan, Bacha Saqa in Peshawar, Mullah Omar in Baluchistan, and so on. Or perhaps India will try to exert control, only to find itself fighting a guerilla war that will make Afghanistan war against the Russians seem like a petty skirmish.

Or perhaps (at least as likely as the other scenarios) maybe there will be a flash - a flash of a nuclear bomb going off - a first in a a series of flashes in BOTH India and in Pakistan. And then only the unlucky (the ones doomed to die of radiation poisoning or it`s other longer term effects) will survive in both countries.

So, I am not sure what people mean when they say Pakistan wont survive. And why they have been saying this ever since I can remember - as I recall this was in fact a prediction Nehru made in 1947.

re viyas vipul 387 quoting rediff

``Why are Hindus being raped and killed in Bangladesh at a faster rate since Khaleda Zia`s victory? ``

I don`t know but the `rate` is probably no different than the killing in cold blood of Chrisitan missionaries, Dalit untouchables, and Muslim pedestrians.

News outlets and their champions put their own credibility on the line when they start plucking partisan news and sensationalizing it to the point, where in this article, WTC is compared to Bangladesh.

Our enemies are religious zealots. Attacking friendly democracies on spurious charges and then exaggerating them only undermines the essential unity of purpose necessary to defeat evil. Thankfully most of official India does not succumb to such nonsense as comparing the globe`s sixth biggest democracy to rogue bandits like the Taliban.

PM

Further to my previous post.

Another good analogy would be to categorize a muslim like a brand of gasoline:regular,premium,or supreme....and maybe a custom-blended one too.Grrrreaat,as long as they drive within speedlimits & not cause accidents.

The state should have no place in the bedroom of the nation(as somebody famous said).To this,let me add (an unknown that I am) that no one should cast aspersions on the citizenship & loyalty of those who took the oath(immigrants) or those who were born into the citizenship of a country ....or CREED.

re: Naqshbandi

Please read #388. My iman is fine, thank you - and not weak enough to be threatened by the existence of Ahmedis who believe in something different than myself or by the preaching of christian missionaries or by Rushdie`s artsy-fartsy Satanic crap - You and your imams are the one`s who have all sorts of emotional and mental problems - They are afraid of women (not even allowing them in mosques against the sunnat of the Prophet), they will not let others preach their religions becuase they are afraid they might convert, they get offended by every other silly thing (enough to warrant death sentences) and the list goes on and on.

PM--381

If he says he is a muslim,he is!

After that how he practices it is betweem him and his Allah.

Funny,that the word moderate or moderation has gained currency only lately and harkens unwittingly to the act of drinking liquor.So if someone is an alcoholic would we refer to him as a fundamentalist wino? or a connosseiur(sp?) of good spirits as an orthodox imbiber/spiritualist?

I believe that it is a present day curse that language usage,in this case the english language,has gone to the dogs(any reference to the Americans is purely incidental).

I might prefer the words like staunch and nominal but only if applied either by the person to himself or to be used for such person when he is not within the hearing/reading distance.

What do you say?

Truth (#383):

I would be more than happy to drop the subject, because I did not make a huge issue of it to begin with. Since your first post on this Board, this is all that has interested you The question of proving Dr. Zakaria guilty or otherwise does not arise. You will most certainly give him the benefit of doubt – but I strongly object to your statement, “until I read direct quotes from a credible source”. I have quoted the newspaper in which it appeared, the dates and there are copies of it. My credibility is above board here. Yes, you may like to read direct quotes. I wish that your search for ‘truth’ extended to other individuals, considered lesser mortals, who have baseless allegations made against them. I have never seen you ask for credible sources and direct quotes on such occasions.

I trust that you have indeed dropped the subject and the quotes fall on your lap from the heavens above.

Asif: You disappoint me with your beliefs. Not as a Muslim but as a Sufi. I know everyone is on his own level in this life game but DAMN, your position makes a brutha wanna put his head down. Even Muhammed didnt kill people who disrespected him.

Anyways, PEACE be with you in your studies. Ive learned how to respect the beliefs of people like u. Ive learned that people like you dont actually come up with these opinions on your own, but that

your confined to the practices of the ``scholars`` of your day. Regardless, If our paths crossed, Id take your head off before I`d let u kill an ``infidel.`` Trust that. Wasalaam.

PM: Such thought is indicative of one who`s been to the tops of the pyramids. Near the foundation is where they bicker about which path up is ``right.`` The middle is where the fundamentalists and moderates battle, in search of a miraged openning leading to the one. The Peak is spirituality at its earthly zenith-When labels and words and interpretations become meaningless. Where everything is nothing... The field where Rumi recieves instructions from Krishna...

Zafar: I couldnt respond to the last message, we`ll BUILD in the future!

Trillium:

``Hats off to the 10,000 Delhi `untouchables` who converted to Buddhism over the weekend``

Yeah, but poor chaps won`t be able to eat meat anymore. Might as well become Christian, at least you`re allowed to eat and drink what you want.

The real reason ursturly is off the board:

http://nypost.com/news/regionalnews/33342.htm

A fascinating article by Farrukh Dhondy

http://www.city-journal.org/html/11_4_our_islamic.html

re asif n`s

``i did say that i believe 100% in the TRADITIONAL ORTHODOX SUNNI view that anyone who insults Allah`s Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam should be killed if proven guilty. ``

That Her Majesty tolerates that kind of crassness is a testament to the greatness of Anglo-American civilization. Say that kind of stuff in public in London, outside of Hyde Park.Then we`ll see how much integrity there is in yourself.

Before you guys establish your kind of Traditional Sunni Orthodoxy in any part of the world, I`d rather have Ram Raj established in that part of the globe.

God, I miss the Great Turk Kemal Pasha`s treatment of these soft-spoken bigots. No wonder that Kazi Nazrul Islam (another one termed a Kafir) said

``Kamal, tu ney kya Kamal kiya bhai``

Interesting Article from Rediff:

Varsha Bhosle

One word: Khilafat

On October 7, 1996, PTI reported a symposium held at the Haj House in Mumbai and organised by the (now belatedly banned) Students Islamic Movement of India to call for the establishment of Khilafat, the Quranic concept of a world government based on moral principles laid down in the Sunnah. The symposium was but a prelude to a 10-day, nationwide campaign to be launched a month later, and was attended by delegates from Myanmar, Palestine and Iran. The organiser of the campaign, Mohammed Adil Khot, urged Muslims worldwide to strive for Khilafat as, without it, Islam is incomplete; for, under it, all humankind obeys the commandments of Allah. Khot decried the evils of nationalism, which had manifested in world wars, massacre of innocents in Chechnya and Bosnia, etc, etc, etc.

Khilafat, or caliphate, urges all Muslims to unite into a single nation devoid of geographical boundaries and regional loyalties. Meaning, an Indian Muslim must identify more with an Afghan Muslim than with his own Hindu neighbour. And if he must respect a temporal government, it should be one such as Saudi Arabia`s: The Muslim ethos must always supersede the Indian one.

There`s another aspect to Khilafat, that which is tacit and understood by the `believers`, and without also which Islam remains incomplete: Its ultimate aim is the Islamisation of the world. Like Christianity, and unlike Hinduism, Islam is a proselytising religion. However, whereas the West sends in overtly gentle missionaries, there are no such self-constraints on the desert states. So, the world saw a new Islamic fundamentalist government pop up in October 1996... The Taleban.

The SIMI symposium came close at the heels of another pan-Islamic conference called in London by Syrian cleric Sheikh Omar Bakhri. In the UK, there was a major to-do over it, and permissions were initially denied since the delegates included suspected terrorists from Lebanon, Algeria, Syria, Nigeria, Afghanistan and, of course, Libya, Iran and Iraq. Finally, the organisers cancelled the event, saying, ``There has been an adverse press campaign and demonstrations were planned outside the arena by Hindu groups, Jewish groups...`` (`Hindu` as in non-secularist/pinko).

The Sunday Times of August 18, 1996, reported: ``Leading figures of international terrorism who will speak at the rally include Sheikh Osama bin Laden, the multi-millionaire terrorist financier linked to the murder of more than 30 American servicemen in the Middle East... Laden, 40, filmed at a secret location, calls for an international campaign against Western imperialism in his 10-minute speech. He has advocated an all-out war between Muslims and America.`` Bin Laden had also issued a 12-page memorandum declaring open war on US forces in Arabia as an occupying force.

The august company couldn`t possibly have organised the get-together to swap recipes and knitting techniques.

Point is, this Rally for Islamic Revival was to be held at the London Arena, hosting some 7,000 to 14,000 Islamic activists, and Britain would be granting visas to the delegates... The same Britain which has begun monitoring the activities of Sheikh Omar Bakhri after he issued a fatwa ordering the death of General Pervez Musharraf, and declared that ``using any biological weapons in self-defence is, in Islam, permissible, and I believe that we are currently operating under a defensive jihad``. The same Britain whose prime minister is now... well, we may as well start calling Tony Blair the US secretary of state.

Another point is, the first six paragraphs of this column are simply a précis of my article written in October 1996. Which is why I didn`t write these past some months. Hell, even I can tire of repeating myself and saying: I`d told you so...

So what`s my world like now? Why are the Islahe Muashera committees of Andhra Pradesh asking Muslim women to wear burqas, men to grow beards, households to shun cable teelvision, all of which is mandatory as per the tenets of Islam to ``bring about an improvement in society``? Why do bombs continue to explode in the Indian state of Jammu & Kashmir? Why are Hindus being raped and killed in Bangladesh at a faster rate since Khaleda Zia`s victory? Why is UP rocked by riots over the ban on SIMI -- whose legal adviser, Khalid Shaikh, declared on September 13: ``Peace will come only when Islam rules``...?

In a word: Khilafat. That which generates the mentality that cannot stomach the return of merely 3 Hindu temples from the thousands desecrated and turned into mosques by invaders.

Why is Malegaon in Maharashtra burning over bin Laden? Why do Muslim youth burst crackers, distribute sweets and take out processions with the posters of bin Laden in Talaq Mahal, Beconganj and Chamanganj areas of Kanpur when the WTC towers collapse...? Why have communal riots broken out in Jalgaon? Why are VCDs of bin Laden`s infidel-hating speeches being sold and bought in Assam? Why do Muslims rampage in Patna when an effigy of bin Laden is burnt...? Why do tens of thousands of young Muslims chant in Delhi`s Jama Masjid: ``Taleban, Taleban, we salute you!``? Why are India`s mullahs exhorting people to boycott Coke and Pepsi to protest against the US air strikes, and why do 800 Muslim hoteliers of Bombay ban these in their establishments? Why are 60 policemen injured as a crowd of Muslims stone them during an anti-US rally in Hyderabad? Why does Imam Bukhari still demand proof of bin Laden`s involvement in terrorism? Doesn`t he read the papers? Can`t he hear Osama`s own exhortations...?

One word: Khilafat. The call to extend Allah`s empire. You see, when the Americans bombed Iraq, there was no such outcry from the Muslims in the Philippines or Indonesia or Britain or Pakistan or India. Those Iraqi civilians were also ``innocent`` Muslims. But Saddam (a Leftist, btw), made the mistake of not invoking an Islam-under-attack. As for the ``innocent Afghan brothers`` that India`s Islamists keep invoking -- where is this sensitivity for victims when hundreds of people are slaughtered in Bangladesh and thousands are baked in New York??

In the meantime, Mulayam Singh Yadav demands an immediate withdrawal of the ban on SIMI because ``the BJP wants to divide Hindus and Muslims and polarise votes``, and the oh-so-respected Maulana Kalbe Sadiq, vice-president of the All-India Muslim Personal Law Board, does likewise. The Italian`s Congress is taken with setting up an attack against the Prevention of Terrorism Ordinance so that Lashkar-e-Tayiba and Co may continue their attacks freely. And the Leftists? They are busy agitating against India`s support to the US for its strikes on an Islamic fundamentalist state which is harbouring a terrorist who continues to advise every Muslim in the world to murder every kafir...

In the meantime, the US re-discovers the concepts of patriotism and nationalism and seriously begins questioning the advantages of political correctness -- which it has forced upon the rest of the world (or, at least, India). After the Berkeley City Council approved a resolution demanding that the US government stop bombing Afghanistan, Americans cancelled hotel reservations they had made in Berkeley, terminated a number of business contracts and shunned Berkeley`s shops and restaurants -- forcing the city`s mayor to wring her hands in public. Point is, the resolution narrowly passed by 5 votes on the 9-member council. And, five of the council members are Leftists.

Notwithstanding the unprecedented gratis ad campaign for ``peaceful`` Islam running non-stop on television (with President Bush as spokesman), Americans are also beginning to discover the driving force of khilafat:

``Islamic fundamentalists have launched a Jihad against the entire non-Muslim world. This Jihad is being fought on three fronts. The first front is the war against secular or nominally Islamic governments. The second front is the war against all nations who are either on the fringe of the Islamic world or who have substantial Muslim minorities. The third front is the war against the predominantly non-Muslim US and other Western countries... The sooner we stop pussyfooting around and recognize the nature of the enemy, the sooner we can start winning... The Qu`ran clearly commands the faithful to engage in war against the infidels`` -- Chuck A Morse, nationally syndicated talk show host.

``We have now Islam to deal with. We do not need to make the point that its political and economic record is miserable, that only one of 18 Muslim states (Turkey) is democratically governed... The Taleban has taken unmarried women detected in pregnancy and buried them to neck level before execution. Where is Islamic condemnation of such practices? For that matter, where is condemnation of Saudis chopping pickpockets` hands off? It is all very well for individual Muslim spokesmen to assert the misjudgment of the terrorist, but the Islamic world is substantially made up of countries that ignore, or countenance, or support terrorist activity`` -- William F Buckley, Jr.

``The point is these folks could not have operated for so long in America without a support system -- one provided willingly by Islamicist (sic) supporters right here in the US... How vast is that network today? I hope it is not 5%, but if it is, consider the fact that estimates of the number of Muslims in the US today is as high as 7 million. Do the math. That would translate to a fifth-column army of 350,000`` -- Joseph Farah, editor: World Net Daily.

Well, the conscious among Hindus always knew this stuff; good to know that Americans are waking up, too.

The first thing to do is make people accept that what`s shaking the world *is * Islamic terrorism -- no more, no less. Shabana Azmi says, ``The pan-Islamic ummah is a myth... It is strange that the Hiroshima bombings were never called Christian terrorism, the LTTE`s action is never called Hindu terrorism.`` Well, Sri Lanka`s militant Tamils -- who include Hindus, Christians and Muslims, btw -- don`t quote the Gita to justify their terrorism, nor were the A-bombs dropped in the name of Christ. But then again, Shabana also found Sunny Deol`s Gadar offensive to Muslims...

The question that vexes most of us is, do all Muslims support Khilafat...? Naaah, bull. For instance, Aamir Khan, who backed Sarfarosh so solidly, can`t possibly be an Islamist; and I can`t even imagine Dr Abdul Kalam getting into a fit over ``our Pakistani brothers``. I know too many Muslims who are Indians first and foremost. Too, the Islamic Council of Australia has just declared: ``We don`t take any orders from overseas calling us to war, it`s just not acceptable anyone here would even think about having anything called a holy war in Australia.`` (Zafar, now I know why we are friends :-).) Nonetheless, at least in India, I do believe that the live-and-let-live kind of Muslims are a minuscule minority. The rest are the reason why Malegaon is still burning.

One of the biggest myths perpetrated by pinkos is that poverty and lack of opportunity breeds crime. Which myth has been blown to smithereens by the profiles of the fidayeen who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks, not to speak of bin Laden`s own. What monetary problems did Sanjay Dutt have when he accepted a delivery of arms from Samir Hingora and Hanif Kadawala? Just last night, I saw on television a Muslim teenager hold forth on ``our Afghan brothers`` and ``what does America think it is`` outside a mosque in Delhi. He was vociferously supported by prosperous-looking, English-speaking elders in his rant against India`s support to the US and his defence of the terrorist bin Laden...

It`s not poverty and all that crap. Don`t Christians have the New Testament?

Varsha Bhosle

FYI. Another article about the same subject. A Canadian looking for moderates in Pakistan. Go to http://www.thestar.ca and search for ``Where are the moderates``

Here`re some excerpts:

{{The conversation turns to terrorism and I ask, delicately, how the suspected perpetrators managed to so misconstrue Islam`s message of tolerance. Fatima puts down her teacup and stares quizzically at me through heavy eyes.

There is a long silence, broken only by the unceasing drone of a fan, until finally she tries to close off the discussion: Where is the evidence that Osama bin laden - or any Muslim - was involved?

``There is no proof,`` she says firmly.}}

{{Khaled Ahmed, one of the country`s most trenchant columnists at the Friday Times, seems bemused by my quest for the moderate face of Islam. In his cluttered offices above one of Lahore`s most popular bookstores, he is scathing about Pakistan`s academic world.

``When they talk to the West, they are lying - they become defensive,`` Ahmed says, peering through half-rimmed spectacles. ``They say the fundamentalists don`t represent us Muslims. But when it comes to challenging the fundamentalists, they fall quiet.``}}

http://www.secularislam.org/visitors/guest28.htm

This event occurred in Pakistan in April 1994

Hafiz Sajjad Tariq of Gujranwala in Pakistan, accidentally dropped a copy of the Koran in a fireplace. As it caught fire, people of the locality became aflame with rage. Not caring that Sajjad was a pious Muslim devoted to exalt holiness of the Scripture (Koran), they alleged that he had desecrated the Word of God. As mullahs of the area heard of it, they instantly issued Fatwas of apostacy against Sajjad. Like hawks, the fundamentalists swooped down on him, each hoping that his blow would despatch the victim to hell assuring him (the assailant) a seat in paradise. As they were hitting him, someone shouted that he was being dished out an un-Islamic punishment because he must be stoned to death. By then, they had broken his ribs and he was not able to walk. A gallant police officer intervened and locked him up with a view to saving him from mob-violence. As the news spread, a large crowd of frenzied Muslims appeared before the local police- station demanding his immediate release. The Police Inspector, instead of enforcing the law, fell for the temptation of establishing himself as the champion of Islam and handed Sajjad to the attackers. They started stoning him mercilessly and thereafter set his body on fire. If this were not enough, they tied his corpse to a powerful motor-cycle and dragged it through the streets for two hours! After a pious show of Islamic morality, they felt that they had done enough to avenge the honour of the Prophet whom the Koran had been revealed.

PM, nice to see your posts. Hope all is well with you and yours.

Regards

Zafar

farzana:

i had already tried the net. i tried again based on information you provided. couldnt find anything. since i believe in ``innocent till proven guilty``, i will give Rafiq Zakaria the benefit of the doubt until i read direct quotes from a credible source. lets drop the topic.