In Search of the Moderate Muslim

Farzana, Thinker, others,

Yeah, sure, it is bothersome to be confronted with the ``Hindu`` question all the time. Never is there a time when I feel confident I won`t be asked the following questions:

1. Do you believe in the caste system? Are you a Brahmin, shudra or so or so?

2. Is it a common practice to burn brides in India?

3. Are all Hindus vegetarians?

4. Do you guys ``really`` worship the cow? (this one is accompanied by unusual contortions of my interlocutor`s face, which are supposed to be grimaces, but which almost scare me into dialling 911)

Among the more knowledgeable crowd, the questioning sometimes gets more ``interesting.``

1. Could India have broken free of the ``Hindu`` rate of economic growth without help from the west?

2. Why is Kashmir so important to India? (the implication being that I, being a Hindu, want Kashmir to remain part of India only because I want to oppress Muslims).

3. Why are there riots in India?

4. Now that you have so many amenities available to you in the United States, you won`t want to go back to India, would you?

I have even been asked whether we get enough to eat in India, or if there are post offices in India!

All this is maddening. The legendary ignorance of Americans is worse than annoying. As a student, sometimes I sat through seminars in which even ``well-read`` people displayed such abysmal ignorance of eastern cultures that I had to ``politely`` correct them. I almost had a fight once with a moronic woman who would not accept that Buddhism had anything to do with the broader Indian culture that reflected itself not only in Buddhism but also in Jainism, and went at least as far back as the vedanta, along with a strong atheistic tradition in India.

But this is only half the story. The fact of the matter is that these poeple, who appear to be so ignorant, have also, as a collective, given minorities greater rights than minorities anywhere else enjoy. These people, that we love to hate, are more tolerant and respectful of minorities than any one else. After September 11, in my travels, I can see myself being investigated a bit more thoroughly than the next person. Looking distinctly South Asian, I have even gotten a few stares, but it will be shameful of me, a person supposedly more educated and better travelled than most Americans, to hold against the Americans the fact that they are mere humans afflicted with fears that anyone can have.

Anyone who doubts: think what would have happened if a group of Muslims had something on a similar scale in India or if Hindus had something similar in Pakistan.

My take is simple. There is no ideal place. There is no ideal time. Some places, some people are better than others because they treat others, the weaker sections of their populations, better than others. In that respect, although I love India dearly, I still think the U.S. is a ``better`` place than India, and perhaps, Pakistan.

Accepting reality never harms us, it can only help us get better. Also, expecting others to be ideal people when we ourselves are far from that ideal (worse, have no intention of following ideals we want others to follow) is silly, unfair, and is sure to cause misplaced resentment and anger in everybody.

Re hamzad afaqui 309

You left out a couple :)

19XX the year in which the sportscaster now known as Ahmad Rashad converted.

1993: Terrorists attempt to blow up the WTC

2001: Terrorists finally suceeded on Sept 11

GIMME A BREAK!

In reality and not in jest, what is the point of all this pride. Reminds me of the black pride movement. As Colin Powell once said of something to this effect that he was more proud of his achievements than anything else. Pride is good for the psyche, but this racial/ethnic/religious pride is often a substitute for lack of individual achievement.

It is one thing for kids in the ghetto to be proud of Michael Jordan. But many often go beyond the pride bit and work as hard to get somewhere as good at him. In the end, most don`t but at least they have a goal worth aiming for.

Ultimately, one has to be proud of one`s achievement. That is how you will be judged on. The fact that some chinese said that arab sailors arrived in the US is not going to get you membership to the sonr or daughters of the revolution. It is what you will personally achieve that matters.

Thinker, Farzana

re:322

Forgive my intrusion on your exchange. I just wanted to second Freethinker`s perception that people in tri-state area are quite upset and unquestioning and unknowledgeable in their collective rage. but I think the media and current administration ``create`` to some extent, some of the more disturbing reactions to the attack. IMHO, the attack on the WTC has no justification and should be pursued in alternative ways. On the other hand, work and social situations get quite prickly and frightening.

Thinker-do you really believe in a Jewish media conspiracy?

regards

``There is no mud without rain`` Kashmiri Proverb

Thinker

Carefully note Fartzana`s (et al) rational response to YOUR ``generalizations`` and ``stereotypes``. Then reread her posts here.

Before I left America, I met an Indian national couple while waiting for our passports in Chicago. Nice folks. I didn`t ask or note their religion. (It doesn`t matter to US.) We told them we were going to Pakistan.

He said ``Be careful on the subcontinent. We will cheat you.``

I laughed uncomfortably. He did not. Her gaze was level.

``It is our national disease.`` she said.

Some did try to flagrantly cheat us. Most did not. Go figure. Consider that there may be other realities out there in the real world.

tahmed,

when have i ever insulted someone? disagreeing with someone`s religious views does not equate with an insult.

Farzana

I read your article, and a lot of the responses (I think I got to 200 something when I lost steam). I have some things I`d like to say...let me start with BRAVO!

This is not the forum to say it, but you write extremely well to say the least...

And your content was great! I might not relate to some of the stuff said, but after reading it, I think I can get close.

I am ambivalent on what to say...I would like to apologise for situations you had to deal with, being a Muslim woman in India...and at the same time, I also think if I really want to apologise for my country. We are who we are, and should be proud of it...take the hard times with the good, but that doesn`t excuse anything.

I know what it feels like to be a minority...I`ve been living in the US for 4 years...and to this day, when I`m in a room full of white people (usually at work)...and there`s some news of any terrorism relating to the Middle East or Southeast Asia...people turn and look at me...its not the best feeling in the world. Sometimes I want to tell them - how f * * *ing ignorant are you people? India and Afghanistan or India and Iraq or whatever outher country it is, are different places...

And, being a minority, you`re ALWAYS a second class citizen...in some places you feel it more than others...but it happens nontheless. In India, I`m the majority...I`m one of many; here, I`m one of few...so I do relate to an extent to your experiences, but not the same extent.

Let me tell you one thing though...if you`re a minority, and someone in another minority somehow related to yours does something...you`re always going to be the one asked about it.

And this makes things difficult...especially when you have nothing to do with it at all, and anyone with half a brain would know that...like in your case, jsut because you`re Muslim...everyone asks you the ``Muslim`` question. utterly ridiculous in my opinion.

Count yourself lucky that you`re in India, and not here...Americans are the least informed people in the world...they know NOTHING about anything outside their borders. Now they`re learning...only because they`re forced to. And what`re their sources? Biased media.

As you probably know, most of the US media is owned by Jewish controlled organizations: NY Times, Wall St. Journal, Washington Post, the FOX network to name a few. Obviously, these sources can`t be relied on for an unbiased point of view about anything...but people here don`t seem to understand, and often end up believing misinformation...but I digress

before I start rambling more...I`d like to adress a few points:

The ``Hindu`` question does exist...you will not get it addressed to you obviously, neither will most Hindus in India...since we`re the majority there...and at least our press doesn`t seem to adress it much. But if you are in a place where you aren`t the majority, it does happen, and a lot. What I mean is that growing up in India as a Hindu person (at least in Delhi) I didn`t know too many Muslims...actually, I knew none at all.

My interaction with Muslims began after I came to the US, and I was asked the standard Hindu Questions:

1. Babri Masjid

2. Kashmir

and the age-old stuff...the Caste system, Sati and so on and so forth.

I will give you my perspective on each one if you`re interested.

And this is totally unrelated, but I want to throw it out there:

The US may say repeatedly that this is not a war on Islam...its a war on terrorism...civilan casualties (which are increasing exponentially now) happen in wars...

that`s all BULLSHIT.

When they say Justice, they mean Revenge.

When they say civilian casualties happen, they mean 6,000 happened here, and they care more about those 6,000 than the ones happening in Afghanistan...and I know it sounds totally awful, but I don`t totally disagree with the last part...once you see people falling from WTC and landing less than 5ft. in front of you, the rage inside you takes a long time to subside...and you do a lot of things you regret, just for revenge. But the regretting stage comes later...I don`t think its come at all in the tri-state area, and I don`t see it happening anytime soon.

That`s all for now.

thank you.

-Thinker

re: dost-mittar

``Islam transforms the culture of the convert and, in the case of the Indian subcontinent at least, caused the convert to be at best indifferent to and, at worst, hate his pre-Islamic identity. Without such transformation, you and I wouldn`t be each other`s ``enemy`` today.``

Sat Sri Akal!

For better or worse Islam has transformed us to a certain degree as it should, like any other religion would - I am sure there are differences between a Sikh and a Hindu Punjabi - even if they are subtle. So what`s so unique about that.

The struggle between so-called moderates and fundamentalists (the word was actually coined for Christian extremists here in America, if I remember correctly) is as old as religion itself. The Muslim fundamentalists insist that ``Islam is a complete way of life`` - they will assure you that everything is there, culture, science, history, economics, laws - you name it. Yet the best they can define this nonsensical concept is in the shape of Taliban regime. Now let`s be serious, how many Pakistanis do you think subscribe to that? As far as modern day Pakistani Muslim is concerned, he did`nt convert to Islam, he was born a Muslim and is not affected by conflicts his ancestors faced 100s of years back. He is comfortable with his roots and is greatful for the religion he`s born in and for most there is no contradiction- The nutcases who want to deny/destroy the past because they think it may be un-Islamic have existed in all time periods and will always be there. These days you see too many of them in Pakistan. And its because of the last 20-30 years of forced Islamization and not because their ancestors went through some trauma of conversion 1000 years back.

In short I don`t buy Naipaul`s thesis at all-there`s nothing unique about this aspect of Islam (Europeans and South Americans will confirm it)- This whole notion that Islam tends to destroy people`s past cultures is nonsense-history evolves and just like we can`t allow the present day Taliban to take us back to 600 A.D., I don`t see why we should get stuck in 5000 B.C. either.

Regards.

p.s. I believe that our present enemity is artificial, I for one don`t consider you an enemy.

News item:

``NEW DELHI: Prime Minister Vajpayee may meet Pakistan President Musharraf in Nepal in January,``

Bless ya Vajpayee.

The following is by far the biggest gathering of religious groups in Pakistan. I believe the street demonstrations were less than 40 times the size of this gathering. This is the category where most religious Pakistanis fall into.

``Huge gathering of the non-militant faithful

By Imtiaz Alam

RAIWIND: Several hundred-thousand followers of the ``Tableeghi Jamaat`` (Group of Preachers) begged God`s forgiveness on Friday while keeping themselves strictly aloof from what`s happening in Afghanistan or on the streets of Pakistan.

Unlike jihadi outfits and religio-political parties calling for holy war, the Tableeghis, known as the pacifist pedagogues of the faith, reiterated their commitment to peaceful preaching of Islam, rather than resort to violent means.

Without calling names or finding faults with others, be they various Muslim sects or non-believers, the Tableeghis focussed on their own self-purification through continuing to pray to God and avoiding secular temptations for worldly things or gratification of politics our clerics have become so fond of.

There were no banners of holy war, nor anybody made demagogic calls for a ferocious battle against the ``infidels``. They, rather, insisted on spreading the message of God to those who remain ignorant of His calling.`` (NEWS, Pakistan)

Asif #304 ``Urstruly bhai, don`t let the barbarism, uncouth comments and vitriole of some people deter you from coming on Chowk``

This man routinely insults hindus, and he is a muslim in your view. And you have this to say. Makes you no better than him, despite your soothing language. Let`s not even talk about the Quran, since if you people were human beings, you would understand how low you are when you insult people simply because of their nationality or religion or anything like that. Get out of the gutter before you start acting like you know anything about Islam.

RSaxena:

“Then we must all drink warm milk, eat Glucose biscuits, and hold hands around a tree to sing Kumbayah.”

….okay, saxena….out with it….what exactly do you have against kumbaya?…..warm milk i can understand….even glucose biscuits….but kumbaya?….

KERALA MUSLIMS

dost-mitter 293,

Trade with the arabs in kerala predates islam. One of the rulers of kerala, Cheraman Perumal distributed all his wealth, went to saudi, converted to islam, and married a close relative, some say the sister of the man himself. It is said in history books of kerala that his tomb is still there and is preserved by the saudis.

It is due to his influence that islam spread in kerala. By the way no one kinows urdu, koran is learnt in arabic. But of course, one needs a caveat, keralites also claim that St thomas, the asal deciple of christ came to kerala and converted the hindus. So the christians and muslims of kerala are as old as any where else. Considering the boasting nature of the keralites, that is much older than christianity, it is quite possible that events could have been massaged in the history to satiate the boasting needs, which are more primordial.

regards

jay

RE Urstruly 291

So what is the hidden context of this goodbye bs? Are you catching a flight to peshawar and then taking the land route to Kandahar to help in the last stand of your co-nuts? Or are you going on the run from the FBI?

Saminashah and Urstruly,

Don`t worry about Hindu-Muslim things. We can deal with all that later. But this Twelve-Headed fool shamelessly and repeatedly spits what he ingests in the sewer that he calls home. He has made a habbit of gratuitously insulting women with his pathetic gibberish laced with crude sexual perversions.

If this guy mouthed the obscenities he does here before me in real life, I swear I would crack his sorry skull. Since we don`t have that privilege here on Chowk, I suggest we completely ignore the moron.

Folks, let`s do it. We shouldn`t wait for Chowk managers to throw this fool out. He has a right to be here. We have a right to ignore him until he mends his ways.

Re: satyavadi

``Teri nautanki phir shuroo ho gayi...``

Haha...dude, for some odd reason that line really cracked me up. Good one.

Farzana:

You havent addressed my comments reg Rafiq Zakaria. I think you shot the messenger.