In Search of the Moderate Muslim

re audio vidoe 541

``Arafat is the biggest snake of all. Nobel prize - nonsense.``

Right on! One of Clinton`s nastiest legacies is that he conferred respectability on two of the most notorious terrorists of our times: Yasir Arafat and Gerry Adams.

Neptune bandor janna,tor ma kookur deya poida ,

Ref veeresh #: 545

[Great injustice is being done to the Hindus and Muslims of Gondwanaland who were stuck on the South Pacific Islands after the two poles reversed polarities.]

I think all right-thinking persons should put their weight behind the movement to re-unite Gondwanaland.

veeresh,

#545

Yow! that statement came right out the left field for me & whoooooosh ---went right over my head!!!:)

I sense that there was some profound analogy you were making; but unfortunely I did`nt get it:)

I was wondering if you could be kind enough to take the trouble to rexplain it to someone who is..er, intellectually challenged--like me?:)

re maheshG

``Sigalph Bhai, why are you calling me a Hindu extremist when I merely brought your attention to the exodus of Hindus that is being prompted by selected assaults on Hindus by Muslim radicals in Bangladesh.``

I do not recall using the term`Hindu extremist` to describe you. If, in error I have, I do apologize. Generally I am not into that kind of language.

My objection is to using the word `exodus` and thus sensationalizing a delicate matter whic is still under investigation by authorities on both sides of the Radcliffe line. None of that means that it is a trivial issue or that some migration has not taken place. But placing responsibility for these acts is not as cut-and-dry as you and some others have suggested in a knee-jerk fashion. There have been allegations of Awami League leaders(including Hindus) turning on those Hindus who voted for the BNP and deserted `their` party. Late last month police in southern Satkhira district arrested a man caught setting fire to Hindu homes. Turns out he was the upazilla(sub-district) Awami secretary.The whole point of this missive is that firstly we are hearing a lot of exaggeration and secondly that the actual miscreants may not be the one at whom the first fingers are pointed. Let the investigation proceed with calm and cool heads and then judge the guilty.

``You are a majority in your country and are in no way affected.``

Don`t assume so blindly based on nothing more than pre-set conjectures. I will not go into details but I doubt you`ll find any of my posts on CHOWK declaring my religious beliefs(if that`s what you meant by majority/minority)

Parag Vohra: Per Sadna`s post below, are you Stuka?? If so, good hunting with your strafing of extremism and hate in any shape or form...

Sigalph Bhai, why are you calling me a Hindu extremist when I merely brought your attention to the exodus of Hindus that is being prompted by selected assaults on Hindus by Muslim radicals in Bangladesh.

You quote staines etc to show bigotry in India. No bigotry in India has caused mass exodus of minorities from India to either Bangladesh or Pakistan.

Why is that the movement of minorities is always a one-way traffic into India?

As I had pointed out to you earlier. In 1971 Bangladesh has 24% Hindus. Now they number merely 10% of the whole population. What would cause such a mass exodus? Don`t just dismiss this as an exxageration. It is easy for you to dismiss such reports. You are a majority in your country and are in no way affected.

Re: Asif Naqsgbandi, #465

``It is a detailed science which needs years of study and there are books available (in Arabic mainly!) which you can read to discover the rules and details. It is a branch of the usool-e-tafseer sciences. I am a layperson and so not qualified to comment on individual verses. I find it a non-sequitur when people cannot grasp the idea that just as you have specialists in every branch of knowledge so you also have specialists in religious knowledge and to presume that one--being a layperson--somehow knows more than them based on a reading of one or two books or an english language translation of the qu`ran is, to me, the height of arrogance.``

That`s an escape! Religion is not exactly quantum mechanics that you need a physicist to explain the sub-atomic world to a layman.

It is probably only Zen Buddhism (and to a certain extent the Hindu philosophy at its core) that requires a master to explain it to common people. That is because Eastern Way of Thinking is highly esoteric and thus beyond the comprehension of most laymen. Only the initiated ones can understand it, and there are not too many of them around. Keep in mind that Eastern philosophies are philosophies and not religions.

As for the monotheistic religions, ie, Judaism, Christianity and Islam, they are simple religions. Islam in particular is quite simplistic and requires no expert for it to be explained. It is Islam`s simplicity that has attracted so many people to it.

You have not answered any of the questions I asked you in my posts. You keep falling back on the ``tradition`` of what others have said. To a rational and thinking mind, what others have said in matters of religion is not acceptable. To blindly accept and acquiesce to statements others have made is not a sign of progress.

Just like its sister religions, Judaism and Christianity, when it comes to Islam one has to do his own thinking, expert or not. To me that is the core of the problem with orthodox and fundamentalist Islam: they cannot--or do not want to--think.

Re: Romair

``...In essence, in Islam, the state and the church do not need to be separated. But the church has absolutely no right to take control of the state...``

In your otherwise well-thought article, the above is the weakest passage. The first sentence may contradict the second. To avoid any ambiguity whatsoever, the Western world decided to completely separate the church and the state. They faced the same issues that you are grappling with (after all monoatheisitc Islam and Christianity do have a lot in common). Let each focus entirely on its own domain, and each reach higher levels of development without interference from the other. Politics should be about the public domain, religion should be about the private domain.

re shima

``? West Bengal is run by despotic regime. ``

If one doesn`t agree with your perception of things it is despotic. But the Bangladesh media, who you claim to quote, is quite accurate apparently. Do you realize how silly you sound?

I am ashamed of every instance of any discrimination in Bangladesh. Whether the media champions it or not and whether the Communists in Calcutta pay heed or not is irrelevant to me. I think the new govt can do far more to fix the perception rapidly with heavy handed measures to punish the scattered miscreants. But the new govt`s job isn`t made easier by the Opposition which wants to reverse its polls defeat by playing the cheap communal card at home and abroad.

Stop being paternalistic about Bangladeshi Hindus or Bangladeshi Muslims or what not. And take the canard of `slaughter` to some place where it is a reality, ie Kashmir.

re tahmed

``I think you can do better than that. Do you really feel greater kinship to a Bengali wife beater (to take an example) than to a normal man (who would never hurt a woman) be he Rajput or a bedouin or whoever?``

I think both of us realize that you are going way out of context here. The initial question was one of Bengalis vis-a-vis their religion. Your comment, as pointed as it is, would have been better suited to a gender-related discussion.

Great injustice is being done to the Hindus and Muslims of Gondwanaland who were stuck on the South Pacific Islands after the two poles reversed polarities.

Is anybody bothered about them?

Or is it just the goats on Diego Garcia?

Eklavya, PM etc Ill get back to u guyz in a few days....

Just wanted to build on something else...

The Fundamental FLAW within ISLAM:

Very simple: MOST Muslims are more connected with BOOKS and MEN than GOD. Most dont have a personal relationship with God, and I dont mean that in the most abstract sense. See, if you are among those who SENSE that a higher reality exists, you rely moreso upon the RIGHT brain, and deal with things such as inuition, Vibrations, feeling, and hopefully, u balance these ideas with left brain logic, and COMMON SENSE...

This flaw stems from the beginning of Islam, and is found within MOST religions (thus its an attribute of the human condition, in my opinion).

The people muhammed was trying to elevate were not highly spiritual, so he had to spend a lot of time TEACHING and GUIDING them, showing HOW things are to be done, basically laying down RULES for them.

Muslims then had a basic groundwork from which to learn about God. But they didn`t. They learned about HOW to worship God, how to PLEASE God and how to FEAR God.... not about HER (love compassion-the very Essence of the One.

The STREAM (ISLAM) became more important than what it leads to: the OCEAN (ALLAH).

After Muhammed`s death, they said, `we can turn to Islam for guidance` not to look WITHIN. They constructed rules based on the SPIRITUALITY of ONE MAN (I believe that there are many ways to the top of a mountain, yet the view form the top is the same.... Muhammed`s way was HIS way, we all can use examples from him, but its on US to find our own way. The things he went through, the lessons he learned may not apply to everyone else.

SO anyways, they took his rules and made a religion out of them, to the point where IMO Islam has largely become a FOOLS` religion (or one for people on lower spiritual levels-maybe I should stick with the latter idea...)

NOW, we have BRAIN DEAD ROBOTS saying...

-You cant sh1t w/your right hand...

-Must wake up on your right side...

-Must say this verse when doing this and this....

Islam has become HIGHLY STRUCTURED or... LEFT BRAIN DOMINANT.

Muslims now cannot come up with this absurdity that killing is wrong. They must form this opinion on the basis of books and ``scholars`` (In quotes cuz anyone who`s ever been to a mosque knows there`s no such thing as a Muslim scholar...)

They say that if all the Qurans were burnt, our Hafiz` would rewrite them based on their memory alone!

God help us if something happened to our Hafiz.`

We would have to start thinking...

PS: I emphasize that this flaw is not limited to Islam. Hinduism always knew about it and tried to address it, yet look how highly structured it has now become...

sigalph,

{{{re Asif:

But since you believe that nonsense, why are you in England? The same shariat demands that you migrate to a country ruled by the `righteous`.}}}

Thank you! thank you!! thank you!!!

I`ve been asking this question REPEATEDLY to Asif (& previously to that character Farangi Kush). For these two, in particular, (& Urstruly to a great extent), to actually live in the west (even temporarily) should be an anenthema.

They have a right to their views (no matter how supercilious I find them) ; but it baffles the heck out of me why all 3 of them CHOOSE to live in the West?!! I mean, has someone in the West put a gun to their heads & force them to live there?!

Maybe I`m paranoid, folks. But their stony silence about this question makes me wonder if they actually have Al-Qeeda connections!:)

Jeeze! I`m sounding like Sen.McCarthy now!:)

Hamzed

``What I am trying to understand here the inherent/learnt concept of evil in itself.``

Although I disagree with almost all your ideas, I too have an interest in understanding the nature of evil (or for that matter, the nature of good). I will watch with interest as your ideas develop.

Regards.

Truth # 522

Dost-Mittar and others have answered some of the issues you raised. I will merely add a brief comment.

The laws of morality work at different conceptual levels. There is a morality fit for the children: thou shalt always tell the truth. Later, we may realize that if some would-be murderers were pursuing a helpless person hiding in a cave, it may not be moral to guide them to their trembling quarry if you know the person is innocent. At the level of groups and nations, morality becomes an even more ambiguous concept because our actions affect not only our own lives but also the welfare and lives of millions of others.

Regards.

EK