In Search of the Moderate Muslim

Farzana,

You write so beautifully, I fail to even look critically at the content. Your second paragraph was has a creative hilarious quality and the part about liberals was even better than Arundhati Roy`s, and I think her speech at the Eqbal Admed Lecture in Amherst was superb in a similar discussion about liberalism.

Keep writing, I wish there are many more like you :)

Aisha

Well written.

Funny thing, Uncle Mushy, perceived to be a moderate-liberal muslim, said that he was not to be taken lightly and he said that he was not wearing a bangle. I don`t know why he said that because it is demeaning women. It is almost saying that women are scarred and not fit for leadership. He forgot Ms Bhutto, Ms.Gandhi and Ms.Zia, Ms. Rehman and Ms. Bandaranayike who are/were demonstrated leadership and have large following.

Deep inside, I wish Islam can come up with a ``second testament``.

Thanks.

Farzana, is it okay for me to say the following:

As a Hindu it is my prerogative to wage Jehad against Muslims?

As a Hindu it is my prerogative to ask for Muslim obeiscance?

If it`s not then what are you crying about?

Why can`t Shabana Azmi ask Imam Bukhari to be airdropped in Kandahar?

If somebody says the same about Bal Thackeray would you be here venting your anger?

Farzana,

I don`t understand why Muslims shouldn`t be asked specifically about this terrorism.

After all these people committed these acts in the name of Islam.

Don`t you seek out what other Hindus think about Babri Masjid?

Let me ask you something.

You assume the worst about Hindus in India.

Yet you scream when some people assume the worst about Muslims in India.

Why these double standards?

Re: Farzana

``The `moderate` Muslim virtually branding me a sinner. What does that make me then?``

A better person.

Farzana, you live in a country and a society that, in general, has not developed and matured. Good luck!

Farzana,

``If we think our religion is the best, we have every right to believe so.

If we think all religions are equal, we must lead our lives in keeping with this cliché``

Is this your Freudian slip showing? Or you wanting to have your secular cake and eating it too?

Re: Wannabe Seema Mustafa

``We are not immigrants that we have to melt in some goddamn pot. We have lived in India for centuries, and we have to prove nothing.``

Hehe..you silly fool...you must not really believe the above...if you did, you wouldn`t have written this article/garabage

Re: sarwari

``You write so beautifully, ``

..about as beautifully as you do. You folks seem to have no appreciation for grammar, syntax, diction, etc.

Ms. Versey: The point of your article being........ (please fill in the blanks, thank you).

Just from a couple of part of this writing.

Farzana Versey wrote...

``How religious can a moderate be? It is a tough question. I have often been blasted because while I am not religious I claim to be a Muslim. Why do I do that? Because I have little choice. Because I am culturally a Muslim. Because I am the Other, and instead of mouthing sweet nothings.``

And Later ....

``He had invited me for tea and talk. In the course of the conversation he told me how misguided I was about Islam and according to the shariat I could be sent straight to hell. I was at that time mighty pleased. Imagine not having to plan a tour itinerary! But think about it: The ‘moderate’ Muslim virtually branding me a sinner. What does that make me then?``


Dear CHOWK Editor. Please give Farzana Versey a ``Featured Writer`` slot here. She makes a whole lot of sense and then asks what this makes her?

Answer: Possibly a very fine human being ...

Ras

Farzana
Who are you complaining about? Who are these `they` ?
I agree if you are saying public debate must move beyond symbolisms and `haahaakaars`.

RE: #10 should have read ``parts`` instead
of ``part`` of this writing.

Another interesting article on the topic from Slate today at:

http://slate.msn.com/?id=2057529&device


Ras

Farzana Versey,

Rafiq Zakaria is an idiot. One couldnt expect much from him. It seems to me that the meaning of the word `moderate` changes like all else in India. After all Ahrar Party, Jamiat e Ulema Islam, Deobandi Ulema etc were all Moderates to India, while Jinnah and the league were the fanatics.

-YLH

rsaxena,

Why is it that we have never seen one of your contributions get published. Is it because you dont have anything worthwhile to offer except hate mongering, bigotry and your delusional view of the world rooted in fiction?

-YLH

Hariharan,

Dear boy, that quote of Musharraf undoubtedly is reflective of his upbringing in Dehli and the cultural lag of Hinduism. After all `meine choorian nahin pehn rakhi` roots back to the days of rajkumars, epic wars, and mahabharata. The first time I ever heard `meine choorian nahin pehn rakhi`, it was in some disgusting Indian movie.

But point taken: Time to bury the past and cultural lags of the past. General Musharraf after all is the new Mustafa Kemal!

-YLH

I completely agree that all Indians should feel free to believe whatever they want to believe, and say whatever they want to say (within the usual confines, ofcourse, that limit speech and behavior in all countries).

As Godot notes very perceptively, Indian democracy still has not matured to that stage. Our suspicions and distrusts have not disappeared. In fact, in some cases, these divisions have increased in recent years.

An enjoyable read. Farzana, despite your (rightful) claim that Muslims in India have to prove nothing as they are as Indian as the next person, it would seem that a large proportion of the population do not see it like that. For them, Muslims will always be ``the other`` unless you become totally secularised or lose your Islamic identity. If that was not the case, this article and others like it would not be necessary.

Which is why, I repeat, Muslims of India have to help * *themselves * * and not look for the government to help them out (whichever party is in power.) The key to this is education--both religious and secular. Also Muslims have to do well in state schools as well and more of them have to go on to become scientists and doctors and engineers and IT specialists and social scientists and writers and artists... And to do that you will need to develop your own private schools like the Zaytuna Institute in the USA and also help build and fund the Traditional Islamic Universities you already have like in Mubarakpur (Jamia Ashrafiyya) or in Bareilly or in Delhi etc.

BTW, I don`t know much about Imam Bukhari of the Shahi Masjid in Delhi. Is he a Sunni, Deobandi, Wahabi, Shia, Naichari...? What do the Muslims of India generally think of him?

For example, until his death in the early 1990s or late 80s Hazrat Mufti e Azam e Hind Mawlana Mustafa Raza Khan Barelvi (rahmatullah alayhi) was the most respected religious authority (amongsy Sunni Muslims) in India. His funeral was attended by dignitaries from all over the Muslim world and politicians from all over India too; Zia ul Haq himself attended the funeral of this great scholar and Sufi.

Even now during elections main parties try to get the vote or support of the ulama and mashaikh of Bareilly since they are recognised by the Sunnis as their top representatives in India and a few years ago a stamp was also issued in India with the Dargah of Ala Hazrat on it; does Imam Bukhari hold a similar position or is he a ``government scholar``, i.e. the state sanctioned ``face`` of Islam? I ask because I know quite a few religious, practising, Sunni Muslims from India and they never even mention this Imam Bukhari of being of any religious importance!

Until I know more about this man Imam Bukhari I am non-commital about him but I do not see why it was so offensive if he called a spade a spade. After all, Shabana Azmi is hardly a model of a virteous woman! If she had so much hayaa she wouldn`t bare her body in films such as Fire. I am not condemning her--if she wants to act in such films it is her prerogative but then don`t expect to be treated like a pakeezah aur parhezgaar Muslim woman. You cannot have your cake and eat it too!

May Allah help our Muslim brethren in India (and in Pakistan!). When I hear of an Indian Muslim --any Muslim--doing well in any field or endeavour I get happy.

Again, we Muslims better wake up and realise that until we help ourselves no one else is going to help us. And we can do that best by returning to our beautiful, moderate, orthodox Islam and by being concerned about the welfare of our fellow brethren and sisters wherever in the world they are. We have to put Islam first, above even our nationalities. Otherwise, if we remain divided mentally by this nationalism the time is not far when, Allah forbid!, what happened to the Muslims of Bosnia and Kosovo will happen in the Subcontinent too. This doesn`t mean going not being proud Indians or Pakistanis etc. but it means not noticing the others ``Pakistani-ness`` or ``Indian-ness`` and seeing only the brotherhood of Islam. And, insha Allah, we can eventually show the other people of the Subcontinent how it is possible to love each other despite being India and/or Pakistani because this unique concept of the brotherhood of the Ummah is unique to Ialam (with the possible exception of Judaism too--indeed we can learn a great deal from the Jews and how they help each others causes all over the world).

To end with that great Indian Muslim poet Iqbal`s words:

Ki Muhammad se wafaa tu ne to Hum tere hain

Yeh jahaan cheez hai kya, Lawh o Qalam tere hain!

(sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam).

* * *

YoonH tau Sayyid bhi ho, Mirza bhi ho, Afghan bhi ho

Tum sabhi kuchh ho, batao kya Musulmaan bhi ho?

....... first of all, a moderate muslim is an oxymoron - as is a moderate christian or moderate jew ....... it is silly to think that someone who believes in angles and hobgoblins can be a moderate ....... for now we will let it go at that ........

....... but to prove my point that george carlin is a true prophet, this is what he said years ago before terrorism was a fad :

.....`` You have to be realistic about terrorism. Ya gotta be a realist: Certain groups of people--Muslim fundamentalists, Christian fundamentalists, Jewish fundamentalists, and just plain guys from Montana--are going to continue to make life in this country very interesting for a long, long time. That`s the reality. Angry men in combat fatigues talking to God on a two-way radio and muttering incoherent slogans about freedom are eventually going to provide us with a great deal of entertainment.

Especially after your stupid fuckin` economy collapses all around you, and the terrorists come out of the woodwork. And you`ll have anthrax in the water supply and sarin gas in the air conditioners; there`ll be chemical and biological suitcase bombs in every city, and I say, ``Relax, enjoy it! Enjoy the show! Take a fuckin` chance. Put a little fun in your life.`` To me, terrorism is exciting. I think the very idea that someone might set off a bomb in Macy`s and kill several hundred people is exciting and stimulating, and I see it as a form of entertainment! ``

........ check out his revelations on airport security and then tell me is not in the same league as moses and the guy who lived in a fish .........

Dear Farzana:

You appear to be a sensitive, intelligent person. But, WHAT WAS THE POINT OF YOUR ARTICLE? You appear to be against a lot things (Imam Bukhari, Shabana, etc.), but WHAT ARE YOU FOR? BTW, your accusation that Shabana is an MP merely because she is Muslim is uncalled for and was in bad taste. You conveniently forgot that she is a great actress (not the run-of-the mill starlet wannabe), makes more films than virtually anyone else on socially relevant issues (rather than the usual song `n` dance trite), and is a hard-working social activist for the most vulnerable in society (e.g. homeless -- how many Bombay stars can point to doing anything for the dispossesed?). Do you have any one of those qualifications?

As regards your `If we want to...` tirade, I am with you, and will support you in anything that you `want to` do (as long as it is legal), but perhaps some emphasis on giving (and not just wanting/asking) would have been in order.

Farzana Varsey Bibi ,

Couldn`t have said it better myself ,You Rock !

Very logical,one of your best i have ever read ,including all Rediff & other placeses.

I only ask ,why not ask Shushmita Sen about Ayodhya issue or continue asking Kajol,Sri Devi,Hema malini ,Karishma,...till we find one who says ``whatever has been ,let by gones be bygones ,we should not Impose on exisisting structure spl. if it is aniother religions symbol``.Would that be enough of a mandate from a hindu woman to get apology from RSS,& uncovicted perpetretor of Rath Yatra Advani ?????

BTW ,what happened to conviction of Bal Thackerey in Mumbai riots case .I dont keep up with silly indian news papers .And while on it Also Advani`s conviction in Demolition of Mosque in dec1992 ???

Sexy Saniyasin -Haine .Starvation(sanyasin-deprived of all) renders everybody HUNGRY !

Pakistan and India fall into the category of `Passive persecution` according to

http://www.worldevangelical.org/rlc_genevareport01.html#passive persecution

Two other nations in this category are: Egypt and Sri Lanka.

Shame on all of us.

EST Reply #: 7

tahmed321

Ms. Versey: The point of your article being........ (please fill in the blanks, thank you).

TAhmed,

If you havent read the article ,there is no shame in keeping quiet.Or are you afraid of being taken as non serious thinker ,scholar,& writer par excellence ,or the somewhat aura you pretend.

If like a stubborn student must you pretend ,Which portion of language or content could you not comprehend?

What is a moderate Muslim?

Is he a human who is guided by `live and let live` principle?

Does he believe that religion is a private personal affair?

Does he believe that non-Muslims may not wind up in some nasty place after they die?

Does he tolerate criticism of the Holy Koran and other Islamic religious texts?

Does he question relevance of some of the ideas in 1400-year old document written mostly for illiterate Arabs?

Why no one talks about moderate Hindus, Jews or Christians?

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Humanity has waged the vendetta of `my religion is better than yours` for ages, without any resolution. May be there is no resolution. The claim is purely subjective. Why can`t we agree on `my religion is good for me` and `yours is okay for you`? and try to live our life peacefully and harmoniously. This approach can not work overnight; it`ll take time, at least for us who have not tried it before. But it`s worth a try. As a matter of fact, this is not a new approach at all; it`s what is popularly called secularism. It works in America so probably it can work in other countries also. Instead of worrying about what a moderate Muslim is? or what it ought to be? or how moderate is really `moderate`, why can`t we push this postulation aside and stop discussing religion? Religion ought to be a personal issue and not an issue for public debate.

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A great Pakistani and a great Hindu Sobho Gianchandani

http://www.thefridaytimes.com/news21.htm

famous quote:

`My grave will not be in India, it will be nearer to Jinnah`s mausoleum.`

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Aside from the subcontinent`s most tedious desi whiner, just a quanta of the Big Cosmic Rhoti.

Those not-so-secret secret feelings of inferiority? Trust them. They`re true. Don`t struggle. Just drift. Give yourself to them. They`re your friend. Follow the voices in your head(s). Listen to them. You`re a fluke of the universe as you`ve suspected. That`s it... now rest. Rest a long, long, long time...

Ras , thanks for the link to the Slate article. Excellent reading. Have you read Karen Armstrong`s ``The Battle for God``? That book explores this same concept as well. By the way, are you the same Ras Siddiqui who used to write for the Pakistan Progressive?

In 1790, the then-president of the republic that was attacked on 9/11, wrote :

``The citizens of the United States of America ... all possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship. It is now no more that toleration is spoken of, as if it was by the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the government of the United States, which gives bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection, should demean themselves as good citizens, in giving it on all occasions their effectual support.``

Bernard Lewis comments on this as follows :

In these words, the first president of the United States expressed with striking clarity the real difference between tolerance and coexistence. Tolerance means that a dominant group, whether defined by faith or race or other criteria, allows to members of other groups some -- but rarely if ever all -- of the rights and privileges enjoyed by its own members. Coexistence means equality between the different groups composing a political society as an inherent natural right to all of them -- to grant it is no merit, to withhold it or limit it is an offense.

---

I see Ms. Versey`s article demanding coexistence and not simply tolerance. ( The existing tolerance has a nasty condescension to it as well.)

I believe the Indian ideal as embodied in the Indian Constitution is that expressed by George Washington, and insofar as Ms. Versey is demanding coexistence on those terms, I am all for it.

-Arun Gupta

Please remember : coexistence means that Hindus, Muslims and everyone else in India are required to give the Constitutional form of government their ``effectual support``. This does not mean any particular political party or particular government, but the framework in which governments are created.

My default assumption is that all Indians support this. There need be no toleration for anyone who does not. Toleration is not a virtue, coexistence is; the enemies of coexistence need not be tolerated. Tolerant societies have the problem of figuring out how to tolerate those who want to destroy the society. Coexistent societies do not face this paradox.

-Arun Gupta

Good article. But . . .

``As an Indian and a Muslim``

``As an Indian and a Hindu``

``As an Indian and a gay/lesbian``

``As an Indian and an anything``

Does it matter? Does it matter in Pali Hill or Dharavi or Kamatipura, or ladies compartment of 8:52 fast . . .forget Behram Pada and Antop Hill for a while, Farzana, and come walk the inner lanes of Dharavi and Kamatipura with me and tell me if your religion or mmatters?

My surname is ``Malik``. I use it to maximise advantage as per the environment. Biryani for one rupee at the nearby mosque on Friday (now you know why they have crowds, and you thought it was to pray?? Temples you get only matthri and lassi while gurudwaras do better with halwa and langar . . . but biryani is best, no?) Better cuts of buffalo meat for Goofy and conspiratorial info on how all the mutton sold in restaurants in delhi - except chops - is actually buff? At the Defence Colony Club, where they know the surname as one which had great feudal zamindari and warrior attributes, but now tips well, I get my booze before others. At the temple near my home, it gets me more prasad and some goodwill because my mother gives generously of what the family earns. At school, my children`s school, the laurels that our daughter brought gets our son out of trouble. My surname is ``Malik`` . . . who cares or knows about my religion??

So what did my religion have to do with it, Farzana? If I can pull of an Aslam Allekum with as much ease as a RamRam or remember the Hail Mary I had to decades ago, big deal?

I tell you what, Farzana, seriously, call yourself Saraswati Muddaliar Ramalingam or something for six months, and see if it feels different?

Farzana,

Yuo are right - As a free citizen of democratic India, you have the rights , as guaranteed by the constitution, to do what you want and you don`t have to prove nothing about yourself. ( Probably -not even your loyalty to the same constitution which guarantees your right. )

And by the guarantees given by the same constitution, people who are asking the ``Muslim Question`` also have the right to ask such questions. You may choose not to answer them, once again you have the right under the constitution not to answer. But the questions will come nonetheless, because , once again , the constitution enables such questions to come in. See how complicated it becomes now.

The trouble is - you are not willing to face such questions head on. Some of the questions are outright contemptous, but many of them are valid ones too. My feeling is - You have decided to run away from the legitimate questions by using the constitution and rights as the smoke screen. But others have chosen to face it and say something about it. For sure - Shabana Azmi is looking for a constituency being the self-serving politician she is - but she is tackling the issues head-on, instead of running away from it. Some agree with her views, and some don`t. The debate thus generated must be welcome and I am sure from all this intellectual push and pull - lot of good things will come out. Much like the proverbial churning of the sea that the gods and demons carried out which produced Amrit - he ultimate life giving potion ( this is according the Hindu mythologies. Hope using this proverb does not hurt anybody`s sentiments)

So - the issue here is not your rights under the constitution - Asking ``muslim questions`` is not a threat to your rights at all. The questions are the direct result of the conflict that has suddenly befallen on us. These exact questions would come if it happens in context of any other religion/faith. For sure - questions were asked in case of Babri Masjid, Bombay riots, Bal Thackray, Staines Murder. The debates in these cases were as vigorous if not more.

So don`t run away. We all have a stake here in hashing out the issues. The conflict is genuine and some consider it gigantic. This is no conspiracy against anybody/faith/community.

Finally - as ``MaheshG - Reply #: 3`` pointed out - how far can we stretch our rights to ``do anything we please``. Should Bal Thackeray have such rights? Should Bukhari/ Shabana Azmi have such rights? Should anybody have such rights? Should there be any limits? Should there be a sense responsibility attached to the rights? Should anybody have rights to decalare Jihad / Crusdade / DharmYuddh or whatever? Think about it.

Here is an article that Farzana should read:

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/today/editor/opi2.htm

Amina Jilani

It is high time that the members of that amorphous community known as the Ummah, which makes vain attempts to trumpet its unity whilst agreeing to remain fractured, and hostile to one another, indulged in a bit of introspection.

In the aftermath of the September happening the Muslim nations have been either moaning and groaning, or they have been up in arms burning effigies and hurling violent abuse at the Great White Satans of this startled world. The cause of their ire or their self-pity is Afghanistan and its people. However, no humantarian aid of any sort from any Muslim state is flowing into that unhappy country to help its refugees and its widows and orphans for whose plight so many breasts are being beaten. The support from the Muslim world boils down to mere rhetoric with nothing behind it, except in the case of Pakistan which is reluctantly being overrun and forced to provide shelter, no matter how crude or rude.

For over a decade Afghanistan has been in a state of turmoil and civil war inflicted by Muslim upon Muslim. The Muslim people of Afghanistan have been murdered and pillaged by the Muslim Mujahadeen and then bludgeoned into submission by the Muslim Taliban whilst being at the same time starved and killed by drought. Where then were the other Muslim states? Those now jumping up and down were either silent observers, quite content to stand by and watch the atrocities of the Mujahadeen and the Taliban or, as with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, active participants in the interests of its own ‘strategic depth’.

Pakistan’s great Islamists (though divorced from the true faith) are now erupting in self-righteous violent fury over the doings of the Infidels. It seems that if Muslim hits, maims or kills Muslim, that’s fine, but let the infidel step in, having been a victim of terrorism with obvious Islamic connections, and things are quite different. When the alleged perpetrators claim their acts of terrorism are sanctioned by Islamic values few Islamic voices are raised in protest.

The good Muslim activists remain silent when the Taliban attack and sack the Western humanitarian relief agencies and seize food meant for the desperate civilian population. They remain silent when the Taliban steal equipment, supplies and vehicles from the relief agencies and thus hamper their ability to give relief? And last week brought rumors in the press that there are fears the Taliban may try to poison humanitarian food stuff being distributed to starving Afghan civilians and then blame the act on the Americans. This is not impossible, and should it happen how many ardent Muslims will protest?

There is a wealth of hypocrisy along the way. Muslims are up in arms against discriminatory practices in non-Islamic countries but are silent on discriminatory practices in Islamic states. For instance, Saddam Hussain is quite justified in killing Kurds; the Gulf states can base their laws and even salaries on ethnic origins and no Muslim will protest that this is a racist practise; Palestinian refugees can become citizens of the United States, but no Muslim state other than Jordan is prepared to grant them this facility though all the Muslim states pledge their undying support for the Palestine cause, and weep and wail over the plight of the Palestinians, and vow to fight to the death for their right to a homeland. The list is long.

At their recent meeting in Qatar the Organisation of the Islamic Conference refused to accept any responsibility for the September terrorist attack. Not one member wishes to take the lead in tackling the problem, or even talking about it, though terrorism is endemic to the Muslim world. Take Pakistan and its marauding groups of fanatics such as the Sipah-e-Sahaba and the Sipah-e-Muhammad, with which we here are all too familiar, who have been allowed to spread terror throughout the country. In Egypt, the Islamic Jihad and the Gama-e-Islami kill and destroy and make miserable the lives of their fellow Muslims. In the far off Philippines, the Abu Sayyaf band, supposedly fighting for liberation, are busy killing their fellow Muslims. There are few Muslim countries not terrorised by terrorism, and the worldwide victims of terrorism more often than not are Muslim victims of Muslim terrorists, particularly in such brutalised places as Palestine and Chechnya.

But, wallowing in a state of denial, the Muslim countries refuse to admit that terrorism is an internal problem. They shrug off all blame, and lay it at the doorsteps of the Western world, or the CIA, the Mossad, the Indians, the Jews. They are paranoiac, seeing conspiracies against them everywhere but in their own front yards.

What the Muslim world should now ask itself is how, in this day and age, it has spawned an Osama Bin Laden? And how, in the year 2001, is that man now transformed into a role model for millions of Muslim youth, both uneducated and educated, to emulate? Something is very wrong in the kingdom of Islam. Against all the tenets and teachings of Islam, it has allowed itself to be hijacked by a bunch of semi-literate demagogues, who practice a fanatic militancy geared to violence, combined with an illiberal repressive brand of fundamentalism. Enough is surely enough.

Here in Pakistan, we should not grudge the man who now heads this country any seat he may wish to sit in, any hat he may wish to wear, if he can somehow drag it into the 21st century and get it going on a path, no matter how rutted, towards progress. His volte face on the ‘national interest’ may well prove to be Pakistan’s saving grace.

But President General Pervez Musharraf, despite his act of support to the coalition, may not get it all his own way. He wants a government dominated by ‘moderate’ Talibans (this is like talking about ‘moderate’ Nazis in 1945). Last week, US Secretary of State General Colin Powell made it quite clear: “The next government of Afghanistan cannot be dictated into existence by Pakistan or any of the other neighbours. It has to be an internationally blessed process, and it has to involve the UN, and it has to involve all the Afghan people, not just who (Pakistan) might favour at a particular moment to put into power in Kabul.”

So much for Musharraf’s strategic depth. And another of his recommendations has been shot down. Colin Powell also has insisted that US forces will not limit their strikes on Afghanistan to the period before the start of the month of Ramadan. Action will continue until the objectives are reached, even though the US is ‘sensitive to Ramadan’.

An afterthought: Would it not be far more becoming to our President General and the image he presents to the world were he, since he feels the compulsion to dye his hair, to seek professional help so that he does appear before his international audiences as if wearing a chestnut skull cap atop a naturally graying head? Or better still, just go gray as nature dictates.

E-mail queries and comments to: aminajilani@nation.com.pk

Farzana,

What a simple soul, WTC attack, all the politicians of the politically correct variety insisted that it is the act of terrorists. Now you are puzzled, why no one is asking the christians and hindus what they thnk of WTC.

There is a fine print detail, all the hijackers as far as it is known came from one religios background.. and you will get full marks, that 0.1 for guessing that religion. Let me give you a clue, leaders of that religion from kashmir refused to have any meeting with the indian goverment, while they insisted and secured a meeting with the miltary dictator of a neighbouring islamic country.

Regrads and best wishes

jay

“Farzana Versey wrote...

``How religious can a moderate be? It is a tough question. I have often been blasted because while I am not religious I claim to be a Muslim. Why do I do that? Because I have little choice. Because I am culturally a Muslim. Because I am the Other, and instead of mouthing sweet nothings.``

Yes I am also a moderate Muslim and I am not religious – and I am a coward -- who sits among the Believers – eats with them -- hears all their BS -- but doesn’t contradict them – most of the time just sits there doesn’t say a thing – or silently digs in the Biryani or searches for the elusive meat in the bowl of Qorma -- but doesn’t say anything -- or just leaves the place and talks to the kids – because they sound more plausible than the Believers – yet he never confronts the Believers – because he IS a “moderate” Muslim – and he is a Coward Muslim – or a Muslim Coward.

That’s how the myth persists, perpetuates -- and all that illiterate religious garbage piles up – higher and higher – into another Himalaya of ignorance, bigotry and fanaticism.

It`s good to see articles from Indian Muslims on this site. Since they have a link with Pakistan through their religion, and with India through their nationality. They perhaps have a better insight into both societies then Pakistani Muslims and Indian Hindus.

I have noticed a few things about the various Indian Muslims I have met in the USA. Their outlook towards Pakistanis is definitely different than Indian Hindus. Around twenty percent or so seem to really like Pakistanis. They hang around with them, room with them, and seem to feel more comfortable with them, than with Indian Hindus.

Another ten to twenty percent, are at the other extreme. They go out of their way to show their Indian-ness. They go overboard in pointing out that Pakistan was a mistake. More so than Indian Hindus, who generally do not show their like/dislike for Pakistan too openly on a personal basis, in the USA.

The third (majority) group of Indian Muslims does not consider Pakistan a mistake, but does not want to be a Pakistani either. However, this group seems to have a lot of rage inside it, against something in India. They seem to be very defensive or offensive in their views (a sign of a frustrated activist). They seem disillusioned, and most of all confused of where they fit into in South Asia. Very different from the generally easy-going Indian Hindus, I have met. I wonder why?

Is Rafiq Zakria the father of Farid Zakaria?

Dear Farzana Versey:

You write:

``If we want to take to the streets, we can.

If we want to express political, social, economic concerns, we can.

If we want to wear burqas and grow beards, it is entirely our prerogative.

If we want to wear bindis and grow nothing, again it is our business.

If we want to declare a jihad, we can.

If we prefer to sit quiet, we can.

If we want to read blasphemous books, who is to stop us?

If we want to burn them, fine.

If we want to be exploited as a vote bank, it is our problem.

If we wish to raise a dissenting voice, good luck to us.

If we think our religion is the best, we have every right to believe so.

If we think all religions are equal, we must lead our lives in keeping with this cliché."

Yes ``we`` have the `right`` to do all those -- incuding the right to be -- stupid and sappy, ignorant and illiterate, backward and bigotted -- laughable and laughed at -- sacked in burqa -- or nunned in hijab -- to our heart content.

EXCEPT.

``If we want to declare a jihad, we can.``

NO Ms Versey -- ``we`` CANNOT -- not here in USA -- nor in INDIA. For that ``we`` have every ``right`` to be slapped, kicked, handcuffed, jailed AND -- even bombed.

And remember, Ms. Versey -- with all those rights that ``we`` claim in democracy -- ``we`` also must give the ``rights`` -- to be CRITICIZED and SCRUTINIZED -- to ``them``.

As far as -- `` Dr. Rafiq Zakaria. He had invited me for tea and talk. In the course of the conversation he told me how misguided I was about Islam and according to the shariat I could be sent straight to hell.`` -- are you sure it wasn`t meant to be a satire?

regards

Not too many Pakistanis have hit no. 1 on the international literary charts. I know Imran Khan`s autobiography (written by himself, without a ghost writer) reached no. 1 on the UK charts. I don`t think any other Pakistani`s autobiography has made it that far.

However, the following book may break all records for Pakistani authors:

``Ahmed Rashid`s book `Taliban - Islam, Oil and the New Great Game in Central Asia` took him 21 years to write.....After the events of September 11 the print run in the US has soared to 350,000 copies and in Britain to 80,000 copies and, says Reuters: ``Last week Ahmed`s book on the once little-known fundamentalist militia hit number one on The New York Times bestseller list for paperback nonfiction, and after bobbing up and down on the list of the most popular books on sale by on-line retailer Amazon.com, it also hit the top spot there....`` (Cowasjee, DAWN, Pakistan)

Ms. Versey,

If hindus indulge in negative, harmful activities, you and every other Indian has the right to call them on their behavior. The same thing holds true for muslims as well. By stating that muslims will say and do whatever they please, you are not doing them any favor. If people of any community become misguided, the rest of society has to stand up and voice their opinion. That is not a curb on their freedom or an attempt to assimilate, it is in our collective self-interest. India is not simply a place where we live. It is the homeland for all of us, hindus and muslims. It is our duty to make it a better place for our future generations.

The fact of the matter is that religious zealotry is a nasty phenomenon, no matter which community is afflicted by it. It is a cancer that we must all try to eradicate. Our people have so much potential, if we can get above the stupid religious nonsense, we can work wonders in India. I personally consider religion to be good enough for celebrating some festivals and having some fun at that time. Other than that, it is a diversion away from accomplishing anything substantial in life. We all must work together as a team and keep religion in its right place in our society. If that means that we must criticize Mr. Bukhari or Mr. Thackrey, we should not hesitate for an instant.

LUCKY MUSLIMS,

Muslims where they are a minority are the lucky ones. Every where else, ranging from pakistan to saudi, where the muslims are in majority, it has to be an islamic republic, sheria, all knowledge is in one book and the rot sets in.

Pakistan is a good example, the young there have no role models, they have no example of any one who has made it through education. In india in varios parts, muslims are concentrating on the education and making a progress.

In pakistan there are more madrassas today than they were 50 years ago, women are less educated than 50 years ago, all of the `horrible hinduu` ideas have been changed to the real good ones.

Some other hinduised versions of islam like the ahmadias have been declared kafirs and made taboos. The apkistanis of the YLh variety are left with no one to emulate and hark back to the period of sher sha suri, looking for role models.

Lucky muslims are the one where they are in minority, the dreaded book is not the ultimate of everything.

Romair # 30 . . . ``Is Rafiq Zakria the father of Farid Zakaria?``

Mrs. Zakaria is out looking for you with unsheathed kitchen chopper.

I mean, how did you know? On chowk, that too?

Tobah-tobah!!

ylh # 28 . . . famous quote: `My grave will not be in India, it will be nearer to Jinnah`s mausoleum.`

Dear ylh, a lot of people have called yu many things, nasty usually, but I havre often admired you for your basic intelligence.

But this time you`ve been had, dude.

Jinnah wanted to be interred in India.

Now if that was not sarcastic on the part of Gianchandani . . . then?

By the way, ylh, would you like to comment on the poor Christians slaughtered in Bahawalpur earlier today? Sad, no? Wonder how it made it to the medi, must be all those firang reporters hanging around . . .

Asif,

{{BTW, I don`t know much about Imam Bukhari of the Shahi Masjid in Delhi. Is he a Sunni, Deobandi, Wahabi, Shia, Naichari...? }}

Pray, is that a factor in your assessment of muslims? If Islam is egalitarian; a muslim is a muslim. This ``sect`` system is as bad as the ``caste`` system among hindus.

Was the Prophet(pbuh) a Sunni, Deobandi, Wahabi, Shia, Naichari...?

Islam is a perfect religion; but some muslims seem to be more perfect than others...

Romair,

{{Is Rafiq Zakria the father of Farid Zakaria? }}

Yes, Rafiq Zakaria is the father of Farid. His sons went to St Mary`s school, Bombay. Farid`s older brother Mansoor was my classmate.

{{However, this group seems to have a lot of rage inside it, against something in India. They seem to be very defensive or offensive in their views (a sign of a frustrated activist).}}

IMO, this rage is universal for muslims that live in societies that claim are ``free, secular & democracies``--but see the hypocracy of those assertions, both in their internal & foreign policies.

Correct me if I`m wrong; but I see the same signs of a frustrated activist in you--esp when you comment on US foreign policy.

``What does that make me then?``

Well, nothing`s really changed... it kind of makes you irrelevent, though you`re not really bright enough to gather it. Narcissism is like that. It`s excited by vulnerability, not for connection, but to humiliate and grind to pulp. It believes that to capture a thing in words, is to invoke its absolute form. Godlikeness. Its theories of things like religion, politic, love and war contain no ACTION. They come from a safe distance to avoid such action. They describe a thing beautifully, but are incapable of `experiencing` a thing. Therein lies the Big Lie. Note the lack of EXPERIENCE. Nothing is related from experience, only lofty theory and the smoke-screen of a condescending `complexity`.

Who best understands a thing than those who experience it? Between the description of the thing and the experience itself, lies the mystery of the ages, not a Muslim, Hindu or Christian God. Get over it.

Pakistan gunmen kill 15 Christians

October 28, 2001 Posted: 4:24 AM EST (0924 GMT)

undefined undefined

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan -- Masked gunmen on motorcycles shot dead as many as 15 Christians and a policeman at Sunday prayers in a central Pakistani town, witnesses say.

Reuters news agency reported that six men on three motorcycles rode up to Saint Dominic`s Church and pulled out AK47 assault rifles from bags, one witness said.

They shot two police guards, killing one, before entering the packed church firing indiscriminately. Dozens were wounded.

COUNTRY PROFILE

At a glance: Pakistan

Provided by CountryWatch.com





CNN.com Asia

More news from our

Asia edition











``It is a security failure,`` Pakistan`s minister for minorities affairs S.K. Tressler told Reuters.

The town of Bahawalpur is 100 kilometers (60 miles) south of Multan near the Indian border,and the church was located in a residential area called Gulzar-e-Sadiq.

Christians have expressed fears they could become targets if unrest broke out in Muslim Pakistan over opposition to the U.S. attacks on neighboring Afghanistan`s ruling Muslim Taliban militia.

Police have been posted at Christian churches since the September 11 attacks on the United States that have been blamed on Saudi-born Osama bin Laden, sheltering in Afghanistan under the protection of the ruling hardline Taliban.

Christians account for about one percent of Pakistan`s 120 million population. ``Women were among the dead,`` a police spokesman said.

``Around nine this morning, six people on two motorcycles stormed into the church and they sprayed bullets indiscriminately on people inside the church,`` one news agency was told.

``We received eight dead bodies, and we have been told that eight more bodies are lying outside the church,`` said Dr. Altaf Malik, medical superintendent of the Civil Hospital of Behawalpur, according to The Associated Press news agency.

He said ``at least five`` more people were being treated for bullet wounds.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the attack.

Pakistan is an overwhelmingly Muslim country but around two percent of its 140 million population belong to various Christian churches.

Saint Dominic`s is a Catholic church but a Protestant service was being held. This was the first such attack on Christians in the region, the police spokesman said.

In 1997, Muslim rioters in southern Punjab sacked 13 churches and a school and burned and looted hundreds of houses, saying some Christians had committed blasphemy by throwing torn pages of the Koran into a mosque.

A 1986 law that makes blasphemy against the Prophet Mohammad punishable by death has been used to intimidate religious minorities, including Christians, rights groups say.

About 2,500 peope are said to be in jail or to face charges for blasphemy.

Amit #31 ``We all must work together as a team and keep religion in its right place in our society. If that means that we must criticize Mr. Bukhari or Mr. Thackrey, we should not hesitate for an instant.``

We can shake hands on that.

We must fight the hate-mongerers and religious fanatics where we can (including those on chowk), and not care whether they are Indian or Pakistani or hindu or muslim. They are all the same - the scum of the human race.

Nagnatheshwar #22 Fair enough. I did read the article, albeit quickly and without trying to glean the point from the text. Since you ask which part of the article I do not understand, I am now going to go through the article para. by para. and give my take on it:

Para 1: ``Let us get this straight. As an Indian and a Muslim I feel no fear about the fallout of the Afghan War...`` Fine. It is good practice to summarize the main idea in a para. in the first sentence. But the rest of the para. basically says the opposite: ``...if push comes to shove the Hindu fundamentalists will vent their ire on some ‘pockets’. And these pockets will be exploited by all stripes of people.`` What am I as a reader to believe: she is not afraid, and she is afraid. Which is it??

Para. 2: ``For the past few weeks I have been sick of this ‘Muslim question’. Because invariably there is the clause: what ‘kind’ of Muslim? The frothing at the mouth Muslim? The bump on the forehead but lips sealed Muslim?...`` Here she is telling us that she is sick of the muslim question. What is the big deal? Instead of watching TV she could watch a romantic movie if she is sick of this. No point to this para.

Para 3: ``But, no. You have the conservative, the moderate and if you are feeling liberal the…er…hmph…liberal…unhuh…Muslim. Now this entity has to be a woman, has to wear a bindi, has to challenge a beard, because only then will she be considered a liberal, no?`` I quote this if full. I understand not one word of this para. Perhaps you can explain.

Para. 4: Same as Para. 3 - quite incomprehensible (I am not repeating it to save space). Again, if you understand the point, I would be much obliged if you could explain.

para. 5: ``If the WTC attack was just an act of ‘terrorism’, why is the Indian media not asking Hindus what they think about it?...`` What, what?? Is there a logical connection between the ``If`` part of the sentence and the ``why`` part of the sentence? If so, please explain.

I will stop here. If you provide a reasonable response to the above, I may go back to the rest of the article and seek your indulgence in understanding the rest of the article. Thank you.

Farzana,

I must say this was a well written article. I really liked it. I have a few comments to make.

“But, no. You have the conservative, the moderate and if you are feeling liberal the…er…hmph…liberal…unhuh…Muslim. Now this entity has to be a woman, has to wear a bindi, has to challenge a beard, because only then will she be considered a liberal, no? “

Not quite! What about Maulana A.K. Azad and Rafik Zakaria former MLA, religious scholar and father of News weeks Fareed Zakaria and of course Fareed himself. I am not sure why you think Rafik Zakaria is not a liberal.

“ Why can Muslims not be political, social, ideological creatures in the country of their birth? “

When in the 54 yrs since independence has this right ever been challenged? When?

“For her, as for Bukhari, every group they claim to represent is just a potential constituency -- political, social or religious. While for one the madrassa is an instrument to brainwash children, what the other does not realise is that it is possibly the only affordable avenue for many Indian Muslim children. For a liberal it is easy to lambast the madrassa culture, but I am surprised that when a Bombay based organization called the Raza Academy takes out peaceful protest rallies using children, they don’t say anything. Why? Are these young minds not being psychologically attuned to taking positions and sides? I have objected to this earlier, but there has not been a cheep of protest from our professional liberals.”

Not True! The Indian govt. provides free education in the Govt. Schools and University education in nearly free in India. But I agree with your point that the media has a liberal bias.

About the Imam and Shabana. They are politicians looking for a constituency that’s it.

Well another thing, when has our cultural identity been under threat and what is this cultural identity. How is it different from the rest of our countrymen, are you trying to say we have a different culture because of our faith.

Regards,

Faruk

RE: Reply #: 34 MFarooqui
``By the way, are you the same Ras Siddiqui who used to write for the Pakistan Progressive?``

I`m the same person who wrote a few small pieces in the Progressive in the old days. But it was the other writers in it that we all now remember and learned a great deal from, namely:

1) Dr. Eqbal Ahmad

2) Dr. Feroz Ahmed

3) Hassan Gardezi

4) Hamza Alvi

5) A person who has been invited to write for CHOWK that now teaches in India

There is no way that I can consider myself in the same League as the people on this list. But it was simply a great magazine. Thanks for rekindling some memories and where have all those years gone?

Ras

THE LIBERAL, THE LIBERATED, AND THE FUNDAMENTALIST MUSLIMS


The dilemma “How much Muslim is a Muslims” exists not because how people outside of Islam view us, but how we view ourselves. The more I delve deeper the more I am convinced that there is no bare minimum, I repeat absolutely no bare minimum to be a Muslim. Islam is unique in this sense that it demands its followers to be absolute fundamentalists. Islam is not a buffet religion. You cannot pick things out of it which suit your lifestyle and reject all those which don’t. In fact, it works the other way around, you have to modify, make changes, and conform your lifestyle to the lifestyle that Islam propagates. Everything i.e. all tenants are so intertwined that it is impossible to untangle them. So there are only two kind of Muslims-Good Muslims and Bad Muslims. There is no middle ground. So that leaves us with only two choice-love it or leave it. The third choice also exists, which is to call yourself a “liberal Muslim” and be condemned to be an apologist for every little thing that you do, for eternity.

A Muslim, any Muslim is a puritan at heart. That is how he is brought up or is converted to change himself. The so called liberal Muslims are those puritans who think that everybody but themselves is having fun. But when fun comes their way it is like Gunah-e-bay-lazzat, doodh meiN maingniaN (Doodh meiN mainniaN dalna is an Urdu proverb,.which means doing someone a favor in such a way that it actually becomes disfavor ; just like offering someone milk but after putting some goat droppings in it). So the result is what urdu saying suggests “ the rider of two boats is condemned to drown”.

Then there comes the class of liberated Muslims. The liberated Muslims are those who have made themselves comfortable with drinking MaingnioN wala doodh. They have even stopped pinching their nose between the thumb and the finger. The maingniaN are the simply the cost of living; like death and taxes. Which is fine. It is their prerogative. Good for them. We are happy for them. BUT the problem arises when they act like that fox who loses her tail to the snare. She thought that before other foxes and animals in the jungle start lampooning her, she must convince them about the benefits of not having a tail. So she gathers all the animals of the jungle and delivers them a lecture on how great she feels; how light she is; and how agile she has become……etc. As she sees that all animals listen to her intently she is convinced more and more of her eloquence and smartness. The silence of her audience convinces her that she must present her case to be their new leader. But but but…as soon as she does that her audience burst into laughter, holding their bellies and pointing their fingers at her.


LONG LIVE FUNDAMENTALISM

FUNDAMENTALISM FOREVER.

BUNYAD PARASTI ZINDABAD.

Speaking of ``Moderate Muslims``, it was great to
see Salman Ahmad of the Pakistani-American Rock
Band ``Junoon`` on CNN this morning.
Salman, someday when you have some time, write
something for us here on CHOWK too. It was great
to see you batting for us today.

And on another note the $OB`s responsible for
the killing of Christians in Bahawalpur, a Punjabi saying ``Taim, Taim Di Gal Hai``. Your
days are numbered in Pakistan.

Ras

Re: ROmair

``Around twenty percent or so seem to really like Pakistanis. They hang around with them, room with them, and seem to feel more comfortable with them, than with Indian Hindus.``

It goes beyond that...some are against everything India stands for. Those are the types who will remain in the gutters of India. While their counterparts integrate into Indian society and compete for IIT & IIM slots and jobs at McKinsey, they sit around memorizing the Quran and learning Arabic. I have come across many of both types. I`ve even seen one Indian Muslim almost smack another at a showing of an India-Pakistan..wanna guess the reason?

Dont bother to please everyone.It never works

I don`t care what you say anymore, this is my life

Go ahead with your own life, and leave me alone

My Life





Got a call from an old friend

We used to be real close

Said he couldn`t go on the American way

Closed the shop, sold the house

Bought a ticket to the West Coast

Now he gives them a stand-up routine in L.A.



CHORUS

I don`t need you to worry for me cause I`m alright

I don`t want you to tell me it`s time to come home

I don`t care what you say anymore, this is my life

Go ahead with your own life, and leave me alone



I never said you had to offer me a second chance

I never said I was a victim of circumstance

I still belong, don`t get me wrong

And you can speak your mind

But not on my time



They will tell you you can`t sleep

Alone in a strange place

Then they`ll tell you you can`t sleep with somebody else

But sooner or later you sleep

In your own space

Either way it`s okay to wake up with yourself



CHORUS

Re: ylh

``Why is it that we have never seen one of your contributions get published.``

Ummm...maybe because I have never written or submitted anything?

``delusional view of the world rooted in fiction?``

That`s your forte...far be it from me to compete with you.

But if you insist that I submit something, would you be kind enough to take over my pretzel stand for two days? That will give me the time to write an article for Chowk.

No? Why not? I know you`ve made disparaging remarks about this before, but I urge you to leave your feudal mentality in Pakistan...there`s no room for that in the US.

Shah #24,

No, I don`t expect the Muslims in India to be knowledgeable about the Middle East and I won`t even bother asking them about it.

But when a Shahi Imam in India stands up and equates the war against the Taliban as a war against Islam then yes we have every right to ask the Muslims in India about their opinion.

Farzana,

I forgot to ask you a couple of questions in my previous posts.

1) Why do you think Hindus will only consider a Muslim liberal if he/she sports a bindi?

2) Do you consider the concept of thinking all religions are equal is a cliche worthy of derision?

[why not ask Shushmita Sen about Ayodhya issue or continue asking Kajol,Sri Devi,Hema malini ,Karishma]

Correct similar situation will be - asking Imran Khan about politics in Pakistan, or asking Shatrughan Sinha about political things in India. These stars have entered politcs, social activism.

Shabana Azmi is a member of Rajya Sabha (Upper House), a political activist. As other cricketers in Pakistan are not political activist, other film stars in India are not activists. Shouldn`t she, Imran Khan have a right to say things, be heard?

Dear Urstruly,

Have you considered this:

There isn`t a single person who does not consider himself or herself unique.

There isn`t a single nation that does not consider itself unique.

What I would most like you to consider -

There isn`t a single religion that does not consider itself (I am ``anthromorphizing`` here for the sake of brevity) unique.

I am not sure if you will find the last point credible. You surely wouldn`t, for example, if you believe, deep down in your heart, that your religion is so obvious and natural that others should naturally follow it. I cannot say about Islam, but there are many Hindus who think along the same lines about their religion. We call our religion ``sanatan`` - meaning it was never born, it always was, it always will be. You get the drift?

In a way, every religion is ``fundamentalist`` and no religion is a ``buffet.`` The difference arises when people begin to use their God-given right to think for ourselves.

Regards.

Dear Urstruly,

Have you considered this:

There isn`t a single person who does not consider himself or herself unique.

There isn`t a single nation that does not consider itself unique.

What I would most like you to consider -

There isn`t a single religion that does not consider itself (I am ``anthromorphizing`` here for the sake of brevity) unique.

I am not sure if you will find the last point credible. You surely wouldn`t, for example, if you believe, deep down in your heart, that your religion is so obvious and natural that others should naturally follow it. I cannot say about Islam, but there are many Hindus who think along the same lines about their religion. We call our religion ``sanatan`` - meaning it was never born, it always was, it always will be. You get the drift?

In a way, every religion is ``fundamentalist`` and no religion is a ``buffet.`` The difference arises when people begin to use their God-given right to think for ourselves.

Regards.

One thing the readers must have noticed about this author is that she writes passionately.

Now, ofcourse, I could disagree with the details of every other sentence she has written. But still, her underlying message is solid: we must follow the IDEAL of granting everyone the freedom to say or do anything they like. That is true of every country.

Indians shouldn`t be so sensitive to internal criticism. The real debate IMO should focus on the following:

How can we balance that ideal of absolute freedom against such existential imperatives as the maintenance of human life, security, and interpersonal trust?

The rest, it seems to me, is empty posturing.

shankar #49: ``IMO, this rage is universal for muslims that live in societies that claim are ``free, secular & democracies``--but see the hypocracy of those assertions, both in their internal & foreign policies.``

This is probably true, in general, i.e. people living in societies where they don`t get any opportunity, but at the same time are not strong enough to influence the effects. In Pakistan, the religious extremists demonstrating fall into this category. This is a dangerous phenomenon. It is a powderkeg waiting to go off, if it gets large enough. The best solution is to provide the opportunities to such people.

``Correct me if I`m wrong; but I see the same signs of a frustrated activist in you--esp when you comment on US foreign policy.``

You are wrong on this one, so I will correct you. I think frustrated activists are created more due to domestic policy, than foreign policy. I am quite a big fan of the US domestic policy. It has been quite fair to me, so I have no complains. Otherwise, I would have moved out of this country, long ago.

US foreign policy, of course, is a different story. It is now the most ruthless in the world. There are too many facts proving this. But I am not a US citizen, so it is not as if I feel guilty for the US`s foreign policy actions. At the same time, the US has not been ruthless or even too unfair with Pakistan, so I have no reason to be frustrated on that account, either.

There is however some frustration, on the lack of debate or knowledge amongst Americans on US foreign policy barbarisms. Probably because, most Americans don`t know or care what the US does outside its borders. That is however no excuse. And the fact, that the US media, like most media, unites on a pro-US stand, the moment the US starts carrying out its offensives.

I just returned from Canada, and have found their foreign and domestic policy to be very principled based and fair. They have embassies in nearly every country, the US considers a rogue state (translated: Canadian foreign policy has not been hijacked by Israel). And they have not killed a single non-Canadian civilian in an act of war, since WWII, as far as I know. At the same time, they entered WWII, two years before the US, to fight Hitler. Compare this to the hundreds of thousands civilians or even a million or more, who have become victims of US foreign policy. And Canada is still as advanced and as safe (much more safe) than the US. So I am seriously thinking of raising my kids there, instead of in the US. A frustrated activist would try to change the US foreign policy, I am actually discarding it all together :)

Ras #54: ``Pakistani-American Rock Band ``Junoon````

I always thought Junoon was a Pakistani Rock band.

Re: Urstruly #52

Urstruly, you propound a `take all or leave all` attitude -- implying that the individual cannot exercise his/her creativity in picking and choosing. This approach, that counters flexibility/openess/adaptability, is very dangerous for the survival of any belief/ideology/species. As times change, so must human beings and their belief systems. An absolutist approach does not favor the survival of a rigid belief system in a Darwinian world.

....... talking about ``cultural`` muslims, most garden-variety christians in pakistan, other than the anglos, are more ``cultural`` muslims than the banana republic crowd that lives in defence or f-8 .... they have names like yaqub and shaheen, greet each other with as-salaam o alikum, say `` allah ka shukr hai`` when asked how their miserable lives are doing, even parrot the silly ``allah hafiz``, love nihari and siri-paye like the rest of us, wear shalwar kameeez and set off fire-works on shab-i-barat and will skip lunch during ramadhan so that they don`t offend their muslim friends ..........but that was not enough to save them from being massacred by the true believers ...........

........ and that, ms. versey, is the danger in being a ``cultural`` muslim ......... there is only one kind of muslim and the rest, according to god and gabriel and urstruly, are either apostates or heretics or plain old infidels .......... take your pick and get ready to face the wrath of the most merciful and benevolent ...........

Re: MaheshG

``But when a Shahi Imam in India stands up and equates the war against the Taliban as a war against Islam then yes we have every right to ask the Muslims in India about their opinion.``

I know this Shahi fellow is a little crazy, but have you ever considered his stance on Kashmir? He shocks me every now and then when he says exactly what the GoI has been saying...the Kashmir issue is nothing more than Pakistani terrorism. He has gone on many tirades about this. I don`t know what to think of him....

Re: your questions to FarceAnna (credit to whoever came up with this), a word of friendly advice....don`t waste your time. You`re not going to get any rational answers.

I agree with Urstruly post #53 with few additions:

1. In the phrase, ``dudh with maingnian``, I tend to believe that duddh (milk) is natural human goodness and maingnian is politics of Islamists, fundamentalists, jehadis, madaris, sunnis, shias, ahmedis, ismaelis, deobandis, barelvis, wahabis, mullahs, Taliban, Saudis,..........

2. A ``good`` Muslim is a stupid human being, a believer in past-perfection theory, a coward forward-looking and brave backward-looking (with respect to time), stuck somewhere in the middle of evolutionary ladder-fearful of climbing up, happy to climb down and spends too much time and energy as insurance premium for a ``good`` place in afterlife.

3. A ``Bad`` Muslim does not cross into Afghanistan with Mullah Shafi Mohammadi and his TNSM. He/ She does not block Karakoram highway. He/ She respects laws, those made by men for men. He/ She does not does not spray bullets on places of talking to god belonging to other sects or Christians of Bahawalpur.

4. Best way to become bad Muslim from good muslim is to ignore religion as much as possible in practical life.

And Shabana -- well Shabana Azmi is an illustious daughter of an illustrious father.

Besides being a great screen artist -- she is also a fighter for women`s rights -- irrespective of their religion, ethnicity and creed -- Shabana Azmi is the pride and joy of a secular India -- the way it should be.

I wish there were more Muslim women like her -- including you Ms. Versey.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

This is the first batch of responses. I will try to answer some of the queries posed to me as best as I can. Also, the responses will be to those who have addressed me, I am assuming the others do not want a reply or are expressing their views -- the yardstick for a healthy debate.

Sarwari (#1):

Thanks, Aisha, though do look critically at the content as well :)

Hariharan (#2):

Your point: “I don`t know why he (Pres Mushurraf) said that because it is demeaning women. It is almost saying that women are scarred and not fit for leadership. He forgot Ms Bhutto, Ms.Gandhi and Ms.Zia, Ms. Rehman and Ms. Bandaranayike who are/were demonstrated leadership and have large following.”

But, men do demean women except those that prove convenient to them. The flipside is that women who talk about certain issues are said to be ‘as good as men’ or, worse, masculine, or in politics they are referred to as, “The only man in the cabinet”. Unfortunately, many women leaders begin to play that tune – therefore I feel that Benazir by going along with she thought was expected in a mullah-dominated society messed things up even more than Zia (at least from this narrow agenda of female empowerment) and Indira Gandhi made pathetic blunders when it came to her son’s whims and fancies. But we are sidetracking. Do interact regarding the question under scrutiny….you were saying something about the second testament :)

Mahesh (#3,4):

First, I am not crying, so don’t feel so sorry for me. You want to know if you can, as a Hindu, wage jihad against Muslims, ask for Muslim obeisance… NO. Because the issues are not connected. I am specifically talking about Indian Muslims, right? So, they (a fringe group, which I have emphasized has no popular clout) have not asked for a jihad against Hindus; not now and not in 1993. And, on what grounds would you expect Muslim obeisance? Is there a law that says so? Or a moral need? Yes, if a Muslim commits a crime, he/she ought to be tried for it and must adhere to all norms not only of the judiciary but of decency.

About Azmi asking the Imam to be airdropped and my objection to it versus someone saying the same about Bal Thackeray, you must realise that this subject about liberalism is unique to Indian Muslims. Besides, where is the question of anyone asking Balasaheb to go anywhere – they are too afraid. Whereas no one is frightened of the Imam. Thackeray has a definite political constituency; his party has been in power in the state and in the coalition at the centre.

I also notice that you have chosen only the ‘negative’ rights I have mentioned – what about the rest that no true-blue Muslim would forgive me for? About assuming the worst about Hindus in India, I have used the term ‘Hindus’ and ‘fundamentalist Hindus’ once each in this article. And I do make a difference. And I would question the latter about the Babri Masjid; I do not catch hold of my neighbours to explain. Hindus have not been made to feel guilty about that act. Like you do not question people who believe in justice and freedom about the carpet-bombing of Afghanistan.

You say: “I don`t understand why Muslims shouldn`t be asked specifically about this terrorism. After all these people committed these acts in the name of Islam.” Which version of Islam? And if you do believe it is a unified whole, then please tell me, why are the liberals not questioned about it? Why are certain ‘characters’ baited and made into caricatures? And what are the standards to define liberalism within the confines of a religion? As far as I know, people from the Muslim League had condemned the attack in NY. But no one believes them. This is the tragedy. I wish you would see through the double-speak of the ones who mouth the ‘right’ words and spare me instead :)

I am re-posting a part of what I wrote to you on the other Board (where you accepted “hum ek hi mulk ke hai”!): [I do have positive things to say about India, but obviously it does not get noticed since I am often talking about the twilight zone. I wish I would be seen as a devil’s advocate, if nothing else. We hang on to every word of a Huntington or Chomsky, no doubt well argued and erudite, but we have problems when our own people point our flaws. I have always spoken as an Indian and at last you have accepted it. But I have a sneaky suspicion that this is not going to last…. you have your eyes trained elsewhere :)]

How right I was… I know you will not be satisfied with my answers. So ask…

Godot (#5):

[Farzana, you live in a country and a society that, in general, has not developed and matured. Good luck!]

I do need all the luck in the world and it was nice of you to say that my being what I am makes me a better person, but my country, like most others, is developing. The evolution is slow and there are too many cobwebs, but we are walking around with broomsticks. Often we get mistaken for witches, but we just might magically transform. Watch this space.

tvarad (#6):

[``If we think our religion is the best, we have every right to believe so.

If we think all religions are equal, we must lead our lives in keeping with this cliché``

Is this your Freudian slip showing? Or you wanting to have your secular cake and eating it too?]

I am glad you brought this up. No Freudian slip here, it was deliberate. The secular/liberals (I would not use the term interchangeably the way it has developed) do want to eat their cake and have it too, which is what a large part of the article was about. No, I am not in this august company. I am happier dipping my ideological bread in home-made garam chai – some of it may settle at the bottom of the cup, but at least I do not have to worry about how the icing on the cake will look. Sometimes it is a soggy mess, but I alone have to eat it. It is my food and my funeral.

Tahmed321 (#7):

[Ms. Versey: The point of your article being........ (please fill in the blanks, thank you).]

Mr Ahmed: 2120 words…the point being…some people have got it, you have not. I am sorry about it. I would have really liked you to interact here, having read your well-thought-out posts elsewhere. Perhaps, if you have the time and inclination, you will occasionally pop in to see how the discussion goes and maybe then it will be clearer. Thank you.

Ras (#10):

Somebody may just ask you to define what a “very fine human being” is :)

Sadna (#11):

The ‘they’ is Muslim liberals and anyone in Indian society who baits Muslims about their true colours. I have been saying for quite a while that public debate must move beyond “symbolism and haahaakaars”. But are we ready to question the symbols that we assume can do no wrong only because they come with a flash of bright lights that we mistake for enlightenment?

ylh (#13):

Yasser, Rafiq Zakaria is not an “idiot”; for me these people are dangerous because they come with a heavy intellectual baggage which they carry around with them and then add destination labels as they go along, when what they are doing is merely standing in one place. Which is why they have not been in a position to come up with a single modern interpretation if Islam, though they seem to be working at it all the time.

And since you brought up the subject, I do believe that Jinnah’s ‘fanatic’ face was a creation of the moderates (he was reacting to them). This is how the truly secular are overtaken.

Asif Naqshbandi (#17):

[Muslims will always be ``the other`` unless you become totally secularised or lose your

Islamic identity.]

The irony is that those who claim to be totally secularized are desperately seeking to be the voice of Muslims because Islam in the times of terrorism has great publicity potential.

While I agree with you that Muslims must help their own, I do not go along with the view that they should remove themselves from the political process. They are citizens and must have a say.

As for what Muslims in general think of Imam Bukhari – they do not waste time over him. Really. He is not even a “government scholar” (I quite like that term!), but he is a smart pawn – ek haath se lau, doosre haath se dau.

[We have to put Islam first, above even our nationalities.]

I don’t think so. It would be ideal if both can co-exist, but that is not possible in any society. You yourself have talked about the different Islams. And I talk about different ways of seeing patriotism. And there will be hundred other ways of seeing…

[May Allah help our Muslim brethren in India (and in Pakistan!). When I hear of an Indian Muslim --any Muslim--doing well in any field or endeavour I get happy.]

Well, to be honest, I do not feel particularly happy….a bit jealous maybe! They can call themselves Muslim and Indian. I also sometimes envy those who have this unstinting faith in god.

Shammi (#19):

When one is raising points against something, it therefore follows that one is FOR the opposite of that: I am for not baiting Muslims everytime something remotely Islamic occurs, I do not want Muslims to be asked to make a choice between two sets of ‘values’ when there are many more, I do not want Muslims to have to cave in to the liberalism of those whose masks have to be peeled. I am sorry you thought my reference to Azmi’s RS stint being on her Muslim status was in “bad taste”, but so was your asking me for my qualifications. But, never mind. Because, I know that I have never asked nor been given anything because I am a Muslim. And when I have worked at the ground level, I have not let my ego dictate which group is in a better position to represent the dispossessed. And I do not crib that my voice is not being heard and then give 20 interviews to that effect, in my capacity as a Muslim. These are my ‘qualifications’ and despite that I want to do something. Your offer to help is greatly appreciated. Tell me where you are and if you want to walk with me.

PS: The much-maligned Bombay stars may not specifically do anything for the dispossessed, but they are there when there is any calamity, irrespective of caste or religion. Yes, they do what they are best at – perform on stage to collect funds. But then Ms. Azmi did dance with Richard Gere on a table at a sit-down dinner in aid of AIDS victims, did she not?

Bijli (#20):

Asking Sushmita Sen and the others about Ayodhya would amount to doing precisely what I have been talking against – please do not hold everyone responsible for something a section of them indulges in.

Nasah (#25):

Lucky you, you get to sit among the believers, choose the chunks of meat from the Qorma – that makes you brave, not a coward, believe me! I agree with you when you say, “That’s how the myth persists, perpetuates -- and all that illiterate religious garbage piles up – higher and higher – into another Himalaya of ignorance, bigotry and fanaticism.”

Now take the same situation with the ‘liberals’, the ones who …well…you know…Let me quote from something I had written in my column some months ago…

// Then there is the other extreme. The singular agenda type, whose major contribution to the ‘dispute’ is that she either wrote an academic treatise on the subject or went on that mandatory picnic to Ayodhya and together with the ‘chevda’ she carried in her jute bag even a bit of her got crushed in the stampede. “It was such a memorable experience. it brought tears to my eyes. It was like watching a Cecil B. de Mille film -- hordes rushing, the splash of saffron, and the dome rising magnificently against the sky while people were going hammer-and-tongs at it. It was an epic, not some stupid ‘masala’ movie that these fools make it out to be. But then they lack commitment, you know. The episode moved me so much I used to sit at the Press Club or go to IIC and just thrash out the matter…by the way, I went to Khau Galli, what paayas, man…so where was I? Hanh, the country’s integrity is at stake.//

Regards,

Farzana

Farzana,

This was great. I love your writing not because it`s beautiful (because it really isn`t ;)... but because it`s candid and straight from the heart and mind,,, no sugar coating, no mincing of words, with an interesting sense of humor pervading through and through.

I especially liked the following:

``It beats me then why the liberals are liberal?

What do they do? Push the right buttons, say the right things? Funny how they use the Quran to justify their acts, quoting para and verse, but if a mullah does it, god help him. They want to culturally remove themselves from the community

and yet speak for that community. And the conservatives who are so caught up in their frayed books and have no inkling about the culture become custodians to ‘liberate’ the community. It is all very circuitous.``

Very interesting and thought provoking article.

You`re a talented lady, don`t give any credence to the developmentally delayed who hurl personal insults to you on an anonymous board.

Romair #67,

Brian O Connell, Junoon`s guitarist, is American, a NY`er.

Re: SameerJB, #71

``Best way to become bad Muslim from good muslim is to ignore religion as much as possible in practical life.``

Ignoring religion (Islam) in practical life does not make a bad Muslim. In practical life any religion, not only Islam, has to be ignored. Bonding with God has nothing to do with how we live our lives and behave towards other. In fact, I believe, ignoring religion in practical life makes a person good. If everyone could do that this would be a lot better world than it is today.

Re: YLH #13

``...Rafiq Zakaria is an idiot...``

One of Rafiq Zakaria`s sons was the editor of Foreign Affairs, and is now the editor of Newsweek International. The other son was the youngest ever SVP in Citibank(? or major Wall St. institution). Both sons grew up in a 3rd world country. The sons achievements would do any parent proud, and all you can say is that Rafiq Zakaria is an idiot? What precisely are your qualifications? (selling unsolicited life insurance over the phone?).

If you want to be taken seriously, you need to demonstrate some maturity.

Farzana (#75)

You wrote:

[While I agree with you that Muslims must help their own, I do not go along with the view that they should remove themselves from the political process. They are citizens and must have a say.]

Farzana you misunderstood me I`m afraid! When I wrote they must not wait for the government to help them but help themselves I did not mean to imply that they should remove themselves from the political process. On the contrary, I believe that Muslims should work to become a powerful lobby within Indian politics (a la the Jews in the USA) and thus help the situation of Muslims and protect them. But to do this they need to be united and work together for the benefit of Muslims in India as a whole and forget about petty and/or regional/personal differences. Again, the Jews in the US are a good model. Like they control US policy so the Muslims can then get to control Indian government policy. The key to all this is economic clout within India which in turn depends on education and having a pan-Islamic identity whilst still being Indians. :-)

Ms Farzana,

I cannot feel what you feel as I do not belong to a minority community but I guess one can feel it vicariously in different situations in life when one is not part of a collective ..be it workplace, community where one lives or just another city in another part of country which has different culture/sub-culture. Being part of minority is never comforting for one reason or another.

As you and many others have lot of grievances as I have seen posts and posts stating the flaws and shortcomings of Indian social system. I agree with all of you to some extent. Its definitly is not a good system. Society is not the best society in the world and nowhere near to it. People are not as they should be .... and to make matters worse many of them are fanatics (Muslims think of Hindus and Hindus think of Muslims please :-)).

I have a simple suggestion to make without offending anyone. Why don`t we add a paragraph or two in our articles giving ideas on how we can improve the system or contribute towards the betterment of our society. Be it Pakistan or India or any other country in the region. All of them are poor with people who lack education and a will to change. Our culture is strong because its age old but we need to modify it a little to make it appropriate for the time we live in.

I know people are already contributing by writing some thought provoking articles but most people on Chowk already understand what the problems are and most of them will agree on the basic problems that we face today like the few I mentioned above.

We may not agree on everything but one thing is common, we all want to see our countries becoming prosperous and our people spending their lives in peace ( ..ok ..may be not all but i can say most, can`t I).

So, if you can suggest few things by which things can be improved in our society and how that would be great. I know of one such basic thing and that is law enforcement and judiciary.

Now how to improve everything in the society? Frankly there is no cure, all we can do is to make people aware and let them make the decision.



I think, We can start by educating our children and convincing our friends and family members that being open minded is a good thing. Its good to change old customs that are useless. We should question the religious texts wherever we feel that they inapropriate and morally wrong (anyone who got offended at this statement please think this statement is for other community till you can forget for a moment that you are not a Hindu or Muslim. Remember you are a human being on the planet earth. Thats all. For a mement only. Later you can join that ranks of RSS or JI again

:-)). What the hell is this open minded? Well, it means thinking without any bias. This is something which we rarely do and it is something that we need to do as much as we can.

Also I would suggest fixing the education system so that we give more doses of moral values to kids. That would require better trained teachers.

There are several other such suggestions which are hard to implement but we can at least play our role by educating the kids we know or the people whom we know.

Don`t want to go on more then this to make the reading painful as if it was not enough yet.

Shammi#79 Agreed one hundred percent.

Shammi #79,

It is Merrill Lynch. Not Citibank.

Just to comment on the title of Farzana`s essay, for me a ``moderate`` Muslim is an orthodox (``fundamentalist``)Muslim who believes in the fundamentals of the Deen in aqeedah as they have been taught from generation to generation from the time of the Sahaba and who *tolerates * differences of opinion WITHIN the boundaries set by traditional Muslim scholarship of the 4 schools of thought. i.e. he (or she) accepts that there have been, and continue to be, legitimate differences of opinion between scholars within Islam and as long as these beliefs do not breach the zaruriyat e deen they are tolerable even though you might not agree with them. This means belief in Allah, angels, the revealed books, all the Prophets, the Day of Judgement, and belief in Qadr (Destiny), and in the Day of Judgement * *as understood by the Prophet alayhisalatosalam and the Sahaba and as has been related to us by subsequent generations of scholars to the present day. * * Furthermore, if a person denies the zaruriyat of the deen, a moderate will not agree with him or like him but will still accept his right to have that point of view even though he believes him to be wrong or damned and will not harm him in any way. Most practising Muslims are moderates. All of the great scholars of Islam fall within this category e.g. the founders of the 4 schools, Imam Ghazzali, Shaykh Ahmad Sirhindi, the Sufi shaykhs etc etc. and the majority of the common believers in the world today.

A fanatic is someone who believes that ONLY their particular interpretation of Islam is correct and all others are wrong and outside the pail of Islam (e.g. Wahabis have this belief) and that you can force your views on others. An example of this is the late Ibn Baz or Yusuf Binori. An historical example would be Ibn Taymiyya

An extremist is the same as a fanatic but believes in using any means necessary to achieve his/her aims including violence. Examples are Mawlana Masood Azhar, some of the Taleban, the fanatics who blow up WTC, kill shias in mosques etc etc. Another exmaple is Muhammad ibn Abd ul Wahab al Najdi. (It is a fact that * *all * * the terrorist organisations with Muslim names or who claim to represent Islam are followers of the ideology of the Wahabi movement founded by this man. Mainstream Sunni orthodoxy (`the moderates`) does not produce terrorism. It produces awliya! The deobandi terrorist organisations like Sipah e Sahaba etc. all share this common admiration of the Wahabi ideology.)

A modernist is someone who thinks that the traditional understanding of Islam as understood by the scholars of yore and as taught in the majority of madrassahs is ``out of date`` and wrong and needs to reinterpreted to fall in line with `modern times`. Most interactors on Chowk who are Muslims tend to be in this category. From the books I have read of him, Rafiq Zakaria is a modernist. Sir Ahmad Khan Aligarhi was a modernist. Another term might be secular `Muslim` though that is an oxymoron...

I would call myself a moderate as per the above definition...

:-)

Ref Headshrinker #: 49

[Farid`s older brother Mansoor was my classmate.]

What is it, Shrink? It looks like anybody who is anybody in India was your classmate. Last time, it was the Ambani kids. Why this compulsion to associate with anybody famous?

Well. so long as you didn`t go to school with Jinnah`s daughter!

Re: Naqshbandi:

``...I believe that Muslims should work to become a powerful lobby within Indian politics (a la the Jews in the USA) and thus help the situation of Muslims and protect them...``

More power to the Muslims if they are able to organize themselves politically to achieve their aims through greater participation in Indian politics. I am with you on that. You should also take into consideration one important thing that differentiates the Jews from Subcontinental Muslims.

The Jews have a policy of consolidating (not fragmenting) their people in one country. In the Subcontinent, the Muslims created first two, then three countries. This division of the people, has not been without consequences. It has led to conflicts, and a dilution of the Muslim voice on issues that affect Muslims. Now, there is a movement underway to create a yet another country.

If you talk to Hindu fundamentalists in India they will say that Muslims vote en block, and influence national politics. And this is when the Muslim population is about 15%. Now imagine, how far the dhot-clad Hindu fundamentalists would have run, had there been no Partition and the Muslim population were 40%? So, while your advice to Farzana may be sound, do you also acknowledge that it may contradictory to your support for the Partition?

Ras, you are absolutely right about the writers on Pakistan Progressive (I was looking through a few of the copies I had) - but I enjoy your thoughtful writings as well! Too bad I missed Salman on CNN - would have really liked to have seen that.

This is a general request: It might be a good thing for all chowkwallahs to post such upcoming events. I know I am not always aware of the programs that are to be broadcast.

Maybe the Chowk Staff can put a little section that lists these kinds of items? Would be very appreciated, I think.

As always, rsaxena is without an answer... but I have a suspicion that everyone on chowk knows what that answer is...

Nangnatheshwar #57

Para. 1 you explain the point ``she receives threat calls ``

She does not say that.

Para. 2 you explain that she cannot leave tv because she is on the wrong side of it (on tv, rather than on the viewer side). Again, she does not say that.

Para. 3 your explanation leaves me as clueless as her para.

Para. 4/5 Not much here.

Oh well. I tried to understand. Actually, I think Eklavya summarizes the point of the article in a later that sheds more light. Maybe I`ll sit and read the whole thing again sometime. Or maybe I`ll find a life...

scout #77: ``Brian O Connell, Junoon`s guitarist, is American, a NY`er.``

I thought he had moved to Pakistan, permanently.

P.S. I am a Pakistani working for a US software company. Does that make my company American-Pakistani? :-)

Romair #89,

why not :) does it really matter?

you asked a question, i gave you what i thought is an answer,,,, does everything have to be dissected?

Farzana

`This is how the truly secular are overtaken`

Totally agreed.. and we see a lot of that here on chowk... though none of `them` can be described as moderates, as one would describe Nehru or Gandhi.

I found an interesting website www.sangat.org. The site seeks to ``enhance awareness, create insight, and generate debate on social, political, and cultural issues related to Pakistan in particular, and to South Asia in general.``

The site doesnt appear to be updated reguarly, but it contains some articles on BJP, written by an Indian I respect, Asghar Ali Engineer. Of course, the website offers a larger number of articles on the history and current understanding of Pakistan. If any of you happen to surf over to sangat, please share your views about the material found there.

The most recent poll on Chowk asked the question, ``The hijacked plane attacks on 11 September were masterminded by Osama Bin Laden - Agree or Disagree?``

An overwhelming 93% disagreed.

Most likely, they were all waiting to see proof of bin Laden`s guilt.

On the other hand, I am sure they would have approved of Ahmad Haq`s execution, within hours of capture, as an American spy by the Taliban.

No proof would have been needed for Ahmad Haq`s guilt.

And we are all looking for MODERATE Muslims?

I haven`t heard a bigger joke in my life.

....both maulana urstruly and the man with the funny hat and beard, v.s. naipaul, are right when they scoff at the silly idea of a ``moderate`` muslim..... but what about george carlin ?

..urstruly, consumate muslim and loyal subject of the one-eyed caliph, is absolutely right when he says :

``Islam is unique in this sense that it demands its followers to be absolute fundamentalists. Islam is not a buffet religion. You cannot pick things out of it which suit your lifestyle and depraved reject all those which don’t.``

..... and sir vidia, third-world hater and ravisher of muslim women, agrees with urstruly when he says :

`` I think it is a contradiction. It can be called upon to drown and overwhwlm every movement. The idea in Islam, the most important thing, is paradise. No one can be a moderate in wishing to go to paradise.``

..... but, there is also no such thing as a moderate christian or a moderate jew either - this whole concept of religious moderates is an obfuscation or, as i prefer to call it, cow manure ........

......... the only difference between the other religious kooks and the islamists is that they don`t talk to god on a two way radio ..........

........ but what about george carlin ? ......oh well - since he doesn`t have gabriel intrepreting for him it is difficult to get his word past the chowk censors ......but that does not make him a lesser god .......

Re: Tahmed321 #79

Thanks. It is one thing to criticize on the basis of fact, but quite another to criticize for no reason at all. YLH`s tirade against Rafiq Zakaria was not founded on any facts at all -- purely on a vague judgment call.

Re: ylh

``As always, rsaxena is without an answer... ``

Huh? Answer to what? Been sniffing your behind again?

We, the christians of Pakistan, fully condemn the terrorist attack carried out against our brethren, and we hold India responsible for this heinous attack.

Urstruly (#53)

Man you just joined the Farce-Anna Hall of Shame.

Both of you: do the Muslim World a favor and renounce your religion. Neither of you would know a Koranic metaphor if it bit you in the ass. I`ve never read so much self serving ejaculation

As you said, yer definitely a `Master Baiter`. Alas, it`s made you both go blind as your Uncle told you it would.

Flash: The Creator is not `Muslim`, `Hindu` nor `Christian`(For your sake and the sake of humour and justice we hope it`s Ahmadi). The Creator is THE Absolute. If any human claims claims first-hand knowledge of The Absolute, he/she is an absolute idiot. We can only theorize the Absolute, which is something you and Fursanus

will continue to do despite our best efforts. Drivel on, continue to abuse free speech... and remind us why we sometimes need things like war and silence.

Farzana,

What a hard hitting article! What angst! I dont agree with several things you have said, but I agree with most of the things you say - esp that Muslim liberalism cannot be held to ransom by the `donated` liberalism of others.

I find it hard to believe that Dr R Z said the things you say he did - it is a real eye-opener.

Asif #80:

``Farzana you misunderstood me I`m afraid! When I wrote they must not wait for the government to help them but help themselves I did not mean to imply that they should remove themselves from the political process. On the contrary, I believe that Muslims should work to become a powerful lobby within Indian politics (a la the Jews in the USA) and thus help the situation of Muslims and protect them. But to do this they need to be united and work together for the benefit of Muslims in India as a whole and forget about petty and/or regional/personal differences. Again, the Jews in the US are a good model. Like they control US policy so the Muslims can then get to control Indian government policy. The key to all this is economic clout within India which in turn depends on education and having a pan-Islamic identity whilst still being Indians. :-)``

I dont think it is that straightforward a comparison. The Jewish lobby `controls` not US domestic policy but US foreign policy, about which most Americans cared diddly squat, till 9/11. I think you are saying that a Muslim lobby in India should have a clout on its domestic policy - for which there are many contending lobbies / interests. Indian Muslims have impacted Indian foreign policy for long. Unless you attribute principles to our foreign policy, till recently, India supported the Arabs and Palestine over Israel mainly due to Indian Muslims.

As regards the creation of a Muslim lobby in India, I hope it will benefit India`s Muslims - better education, better representation in the police and government etc etc. The existing lobbies do not protect the interests of those they claim to - for example the farmers` lobby benefits the few large farmers and not the many small ones.

Carrying out Jihad in Pakistan

[Some of them lay down. Some begged for mercy. They didn`t listen



Ali Shah, survivor, Bahawalpur]

Question - How long will these killing be in Pakistani newspapers? Ten years, five years, five months, five days?

We will keep hearing from Pakistanis about Babri Masjid, murder of Australian missionary years ago.

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The reviews of Dost-Mittar, Shammi, Veeresh and Tahmed essentially encompasses Ms. Verzey`s this article. Once again, lot of frustrations, but no real solutions, lot of provocations without any considerations... typical of her. Her criticism of Shabana Azmi sounds as ``grapes are sour``. If only we/she had an iota of the qualities of Shabana has !!!

No comments Farzana this time from me since I am tired of your frustrations. In this world of frustrations, who wants to learn more? Take Veeresh`s advise, change your name to Saraswati Bidyabati Vasundhara Ramalingam Viswanadam or whatever and see the difference. It should not be difficult in the land of lawlessness. Just bribe the court and get a name change.

Ras # 10

``[[Dear CHOWK Editor. Please give Farzana Versey a ``Featured Writer`` slot here. She makes a whole lot of sense and then asks what this makes her?

Answer: Possibly a very fine human being ...]]``

Dear Farzana,

As always your articles, speak so much truth, they come straight from the heart,and excellent observation. I fulsomely second Ras that you really deserve to be called ``A FEATURED WRITER ``. I hope the Chowk staff will seriously consider this !

lots of love,

sa :)

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urstruly,

I have fallen into the ``bad muslim`` category.... ever since they partitioned the mosque to hide the scarf-wearing-muslimas-in-tight-jeans.

satyavadi #65,

these morons have nothing better to do than to throw Sarwari`s name around just for the hell of it to take pot shots at each other.

idiots kay ghar main shayad bahenain nahi hain.

re:farzana

I started reading with interest and thought you were asking right questions. Why should muslims have to prove anything as Indians and muslims are as heterogeneous in their thoughts, behaviour, political belives as any other religious group.

But as I read on I get the feeling that either you are totally confused or the whole article is an exercise to pour your heart out against one or two individuals.

Re: Farzana Versey #75

``...Your offer to help is greatly appreciated. Tell me where you are and if you want to walk with me...``

Please contact me at shammi@onebox.com

Farzana #75,

First of all please keep in mind that I would never ever call you a Pakistani. I would never ever question your motives. So, please stop looking for clue and hidden messages in my posts.

Now to your reply.

``About Azmi asking the Imam to be airdropped and my objection to it versus someone saying the same about Bal Thackeray, you must realise that this subject about liberalism is unique to Indian Muslims. Besides, where is the question of anyone asking Balasaheb to go anywhere – they are too afraid. Whereas no one is frightened of the Imam.``

Are you telling me that nobody has ever made any statements against Bal Thackeray? That I find hard to believe.

``First, I am not crying, so don’t feel so sorry for me. You want to know if you can, as a Hindu, wage jihad against Muslims, ask for Muslim obeisance… NO. Because the issues are not connected. I am specifically talking about Indian Muslims, right? So, they (a fringe group, which I have emphasized has no popular clout) have not asked for a jihad against Hindus; not now and not in 1993. And, on what grounds would you expect Muslim obeisance? ``

I never said jehad against Indian Muslims, did I? ANd there is no law calling for Muslim obeisance. Hindus can not demand it. And that is precisely my point. You can`t ask for rights that are exclusive to Muslims. Muslims should conform to the same laws that everybody else is.

``About assuming the worst about Hindus in India, I have used the term ‘Hindus’ and ‘fundamentalist Hindus’ once each in this article. And I do make a difference. And I would question the latter about the Babri Masjid; I do not catch hold of my neighbours to explain. Hindus have not been made to feel guilty about that act. Like you do not question people who believe in justice and freedom about the carpet-bombing of Afghanistan.``

I don`t believe what you are saying here. Babri Masjid was pulled down citing Hindu sentiment and you are telling me you won`t ask your Hindu friends whether that is really the sentiment or not? Maybe not you personally but others would.

``Which version of Islam? And if you do believe it is a unified whole, then please tell me, why are the liberals not questioned about it? Why are certain ‘characters’ baited and made into caricatures? And what are the standards to define liberalism within the confines of a religion? As far as I know, people from the Muslim League had condemned the attack in NY. ``

I don`t believe Islam as a whole is responsible. Even then I did ask the liberals (Tahmed, Zafar, Nasah etc. etc.) about the version of Islam that these terrorists follow? And it is only the liberals that I pose these questions to. Because it is important to know what they think of people who claim to follow their own religion and indulge in these heinous acts. It is important because it is in the hands of the liberal to rescue their religion from the hands of the terrorists.

I know already what people like Urstruly and Naqshbandi think like. There is no need to question them.

And who are these certain characters that are baited? Even Shahi Imam condemned the attacks on NY and everybody knew about it. The objection is his issuing a fatwa to wage Jehad against this war against Islam.

``This is the tragedy. I wish you would see through the double-speak of the ones who mouth the ‘right’ words and spare me instead :) ``

Who are these double-speaking people who say the right words?

And am I asking you whether you agree with Shahi Imam? My questions to you are confined entirely to this article. I am not asking for your opinion on WTC or the war against the Taliban.

For those that missed Salman Ahmad of Junoon, I believe that he is going to be on ``Politically
Incorrect`` (ABC) this week. Please check...

Here is the transcript from his CNN interview..


CNN SUNDAY MORNING
Interview With Salman Ahmad
Aired October 28, 2001 - 10:17 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: Junoon (ph) , a leading pop band in Pakistan has been helping the United Nations raise money for the campaign against AIDS and HIV. Now the group is in New York to perform at a fund raiser for the victims of the World Trade Center tragedy. Joining us now is Salman Ahmad, Junoon`s bandleader. He is also a goodwill ambassador for the United Nations.

Good morning to you.

SALMAN AHMAD, GOODWILL AMBASSADOR TO UNITED NATIONS: Hi, Martin how are you?

SAVIDGE: Fine, thanks. Tell us, for those who don`t know, a bit about the band. What type of music you play, and more importantly, how you got involved here?

AHMAD: Well, Junoon`s a South Asian rock band. We`ve got three main members: Myself, lead singer Ali, and an American friend of mine, Brian O`Connell, who I went to school with in New York in junior high and high school.

And we`ve been working out of Karachi, Pakistan and we -- since September 11, we have shared that sense of sharp disbelief of how the world has turned upside down, and what we`ve tried to do in our own humble capacity was to set up a peace concert in Islamabad on the October 9, which was a concert to raise funds for the victims here and the Afghan refugees coming into Pakistan.

And I chose October 9 because of John Lennon`s birthday, and it was wonderful to see, you know, a girls` college where we held the concert, where everybody was singing, ``Give peace a chance.`` And there were -- the people -- it wasn`t just Junoon, I got artists from music, television, film, sports stars, doctors, lawyers all on one stage to show the silent majority of Pakistan.

SAVIDGE: Well, you mentioned that this is all in your humble way. But there`s a great deal of significance of where you are from. The group also has a number of religions that are connected to it. What is the message that you are trying to get out there for people to understand?

AHMAD: Well, you know, the underlying ethos of Junoon`s music is Islamic Sufi poetry, and for those who don`t know, Jalaluddin Rumi is one of the best-known Islamic Sufi poets. And the Sufis sang about harmony, tolerance, peace, self-discovery, simplicity, and they were really, sort of, totally, the antithesis of the religious extremists that you see nowadays protesting on the streets.

SAVIDGE: So you`re sort of counter the message that we have seen played up in the media regarding those that are opposed to this action. You have a different message then.

AHMAD: Well, Martin, if you think about it, it`s not just our message, it`s the message of Pakistanis everywhere. It`s a country of 140 million people; 10-30-40,000 people constitute a real huge minority who you see on CNN in America and elsewhere, and unfortunately, the great silent majority, which has been suffering silently for 50 years, because they were -- can`t go out on the streets and face being shot by the religious extremists; they obviously aren`t supportive of these protests, because this terrorist attack is an un-Islamic act.

The hijacking that took place wasn`t just a hijacking of an airplane -- an entire religion was hijacked by the terrorists. In Islam, you can`t kill innocent civilians; it`s murder. In Islam, suicide is prohibited, and the prophet Mohammad said that the ink of a scholar is far more precious than the blood of a martyr. So this whole radical image of Islam which is being portrayed is, I think, a minority view and it doesn`t really have to do with Islam.

SAVIDGE: Salman Ahmad, that was very well put. Thank you very much. The name of the group is Junoon. We wish you very good success in all of your concerts. Music goes a long way to heal in many of the problems in the world today. Thank you.

AHMAD: Thank you.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com

Farzana #75
``The ?they? is Muslim liberals and anyone in Indian society who baits Muslims about their true colours.``

You yourself are baiting Muslim liberals including Ms Azmi about their `true colours`. Whats the difference?

btw, which Muslim liberals do you mean apart from Ms Azmi and Mr Akhtar?


``If we want to declare a jihad, we can.``

Do you happen to mean `if we want to declare armed jihad on any entity that catches our khundak, we can`?

``Dr. Rafiq Zakaria. He had invited me for tea and talk. In the course of the conversation he told me how misguided I was about Islam and according to the shariat I could be sent straight to hell``

For what reason/action/stance did Dr Zakaria tell you you were misguided and could be sent to hell? What are we to understand from thsi anecdote, can you please clarify for better understanding?


``If we think our religion is the best, we have every right to believe so.`` ``If we think all religions are equal, we must lead our lives in keeping with this cliché.``

Again, I will appreciate a clarification/elaboration of this. I think almost by defination, each religion`s adherent thinks of his own religion as best. As long as he does so privately, or in his own group, and doesnot seek to impose his belief on unwilling others, multireligious societies can avoid conflict, IMO.

But I think its not uncommon to come across NR Muslims, not necessarily from India, who hold this general belief, mostly in a benign impersonal way, that all the world will eventually be converted to Islam including America, Europe and India. They seem to regard this as an inevitable consequence of the existence of Islam.

So my question is, what is your own opinion about this, esp with respect to Indians of nonMuslim faith? Is such a belief an inseparable part of every ``religious`` Muslim`s belief, do you think?

Do `fundamental rights to religious freedom` for Muslims in India need to allow public manifestations of this internal belief (in the eventual triumph of Islam), for Muslims to feel truly free to follow their religion?

If nonMuslim Indians donot accept in principle that all nonMuslims Indians are inevitably headed for Islam, is this a curtailment of Indian Muslims religious freedoms?

The same question holds good for Indian evangelical Christians, too.

Re: scout the prude

``these morons have nothing better to do than to throw Sarwari`s ``

genius, i didn`t mention her name anywhere. stop lying.

Farzana: Could you please clarify whether Rafiq Zakaria was classifying you as a sinner or whether he was observing that, under Sharia, you would be classified a sinner.

In the first case, that would be his own view - in the second case, it would be the reporting of another`s views since I doubt Rafiq Zakaria believes in Sharia himself.

Miss Farzana Versey,

Identity crisis problems? Me personally am the ``kafir muslim``. That makes me a non muslim. I question hence a non-muslim. I came, I thought, and I rejected.

The problem you are refering to is not because of other people trying to quantify muslims but because lots of muslims try to live the modern world while trying to adhere to 7th Century ideals of a land far far away.

So how about a ``cliche``. Who are you? That article really indicated that a few questions would confuse some of chowk`s prolific writers.

NotAMullah

You should try Muslims in Egypt, Sudan, Malaysia, Indonesia where they are adept at cliterodectomies thereby putting a just end to your hysterical writings.
Then there is sex- it is another antidote.

You are an epitome of the Muslim woman who wants to stuff her cake into both her mouth and her behind.

You want to live with contradictions.

You SHALL NOT circumcize young boys and girls and then go off to a rally against child-abuse.
You SHALL NOT force your holy book in other people`s faces and want freedom to burn every other book.
You SHALL NOT wear hijabs and trumpet piety and then join an orgy with the Imams after Isha.
You SHALL NOT accuse others of violence while suicide bombing their homes and offices.
You SHALL NOT accuse others of cruelty while beating women, raping minors, shooting women in jeans, crucifying rebels against Allah, stoning, lashing and chopping off people with different sexual orientation.

There is a word for your kind of schizophrenia : it is called hypocrisy! you SHALL NOT be allowed to hypocritcally do as you please and impose another set of values for others. You SHALL co-exist with civility and compassion OR you shall weave your constipated,angry delusions in some backwater like Afghanistan.

THE CHALLENGE

Dost_Mitter # 114 (Shammi, Eklavya and others)

The Urdu equivalent of this proverb is ``Doodh meiN maingniaN dalna``. Thanks for the Punjabi version.

The rest of your thesis was interesting, however, I do not agree with the conclusions you have drawn from it. When we talk about culture-religious interaction, especially in the context of a religion, which is not just a religion by birth but it is a religion by choice as well, we must understand two points first:

1. The adoption and absorption of cultural values into the religion.
2. The integration of religious values into a culture.

My last post (#53) was only dealing with point# 2 in a restricted sense. I agree with your contention that no ideology or a religion can exist for long unless #1 happens to an extent. I am a proponent of this idea, and also mentioned this aspect in one of my recent articles on Jihad. I found your post, however, very confusing when in the beginning you say Islam is ``my way or highway`` and in the end you mention the Sufi Islam. So which one is it?

The point is that nothing in this world is black and white. Everything is gray. The phenomenon as mentioned in point # 1 can be understood in the context of two school of thoughts that have emerged indigenously in subcontinent. One school of thought is called Brelvi and other Deobandi. The Brelvi school of thought is more open to integration and most often derive its philosophy from the Sufi Ullema. Whereas, Deobandi school of thought is not as open to the said integration. It is not orthodox but you can say it is more fundamentalist- i.e. one which sticks with the basics. An interesting example to understand the difference between the two is the dispute over the issue of Quwwali. If we go little bit back into the history we see that when Muslims first established their stronghold in the subcontinent they saw a people (local) who had music as their second religion. The Sufi Ulema of the time understood this phenomenon and allowed a Muslim version of music called Quwaali. The main goal was to attract the local populace into a new ideology. So a cultural norm was thus adopted as a religious value. If we discuss the issue of Qawwali on merit it is absolutely not unIslamic even though it is not an Islamic tenet. But for a greater good it was adopted. Debandis on the other hand consider any such adaptation as un-Islamic. Their contention is that any such addition over the time will ultimately corrupt the fundamentals of the religion.

In the past, the Ulema, the Sufis, and Muslim nation in general had a different kind of challenge. The challenge was to increase the number of believers. Thus in the past such adaptations, though frowned upon, were tolerated. Such adaptations thus have corrupted the religion by adopting cultural superstitions and rituals. Islam is also a unique religion in the sense ;) that it strictly forbids any superstitions and rituals (to be adopted as a way of worship). These superstitions and rituals are those which hamidm usually refer to as fairy tales and hobgoblins and stuff. These things have absolutely no place in Islam. Islam came to cull such rituals. The relationship between man and God is very simple and very direct and God himself has made it crystal clear as to what are His rights (Haqooq ullah) and what are the rights of man (Haqooq ul Ibad). And God has also made crystal clear as to what to do to fulfill the rights of God in the form of worship; (Namaz, Roza, Hajj, Zakat etc.). That leaves absolutely no room for any rituals. You cannot summons Gods favors by beating a drum and harmonium and 10 guys clapping in the background. All you have to do is to pray-it is as simple as that. But still Quwwali is not un-Islamic. If it doesn’t waste your time and doesn’t keep you away from God`s worship its great. But it cannot be a substitute of the Namaz.

So as the times have changed the Challenge to the Ullemas, Sufis, and Muslims in general have also changed. Today the challenge is not how many you convert, the challenge is how much a better Muslim you have made. In order to do that a movement with in the Muslim nation is taking place. This movement has a goal in its mind to distinguish (and not separate, I repeat not separate) the cultural norms and the religious norms; Especially those cultural norms which have been adopted over the years and have become religious norms. And an interesting thing is that there is no name and no leader for such movement. It is self propelled. As the Muslim of the world is getting educated, never mind what system of education, he is beginning to realize the need for such ``purity``. Some conservatives (by conservatives I mean the people who want to maintain the status quo) are resisting such change. They find the bogyman sometime in the form of Deobandis, sometimes as Wahabis, and sometimes as ``Saudis influence`` (since all three are more fundamentalist). It is interesting to note that the people who are at the forefront of this change are mostly expatriates from all over the world living in West. It is hard to tell whether Western thought has influenced this metamorphosis in any way but it is happening. Please read Bina Shah`s recent article Book Review: American Muslims. Today the Muslims in this part of the world have let go of the superstition and he has no qualms saying his prayer along with a Muslim of different school of thought. He is able to differentiate between the cultural norms and the religious norms. So the Muslim is up to the challenge of evolution and he has shown a spectacular progress.

Now please read my post again after keeping in mind my point # 2. You will get your answer to your contention me promoting absolutism. Probably now you will undersatnd that I am not promoting abslutism but fundamentalism

Godot #78: My definitions of good and bad Muslms were tongue-in-cheek definitions, according to my point no. 2 and 3. Thus a rational and decent human being like yourself is a bad Muslim for not devouring the tasteless, unhealthy mumbo-jumbo like gulf coast gumbo soup (shrimps, okra and hot spicies) because Islam is not a buffet religion. It is one dish, with no visible ingredients but you have to eat it to feel it, next day in the morning in the bathroom.

We now have definitions of good Muslims, bad Muslims (Urstruly #53), liberal Muslims (dost-mittar`s post), secular Muslim, kafir Muslim (Not A Mullah). May be I should include another as former Muslim, one who does not believe and does not want to be labelled with the suffix ``Muslim``.

I think, shammi has summed up Urstruly definition of good Muslim the best way, ``non-compromising, inflexible, mutually exclusive,.....``. Although it seems currently that it is Islam versus west but in reality it is Islam versus rest. The rigidity of non-buffet type was the best part of Islam suited for elite and monarchs. It subdued Muslim subject to the whims of the monarchs as never before in the history. They extracted the best out of Islam from the total submission hypothesis. If you notice history, it was Abbassi who claiming to be Qureshis who overthrew Amavis with the help of newly Persian converts and not the masses. It was mongols who destroyed Abbasi empire and not Muslim nmasses. Muslims almost always clinged on to the empire in the name of mumbo-jumbo absolute submission. The total submission in reality turned out to be the real opiate for Muslim masses dealing with Muslim monarchies. It is precisely this opiate concoction that deobandis and wahabis are running with. It leads to total paralysis of human mind in almost every worthwhile cause for progress or decent living, and appears as rage with a fury against liberalism, secularism, communnism, western civilization or to put it summarily-against rest of the world. Lastly, they are never satisfied with being a minority all around the world, not realizing that there are many ways to preserve their interests, short of waging rebellion-aka jehad.

Due to above mentioned exclusively pathetic nature, Islamic fundamentalism is markedly different than Hindu fundamentalism, in practice. Hindu fundamentalism is fascist and hurts non-conformist minorites only whereas Islamic fundamentalism is facing-forward-marching-backward, blindly following the best of Arab tribal culture is detrimental to the majority population more tham the minorities. Hindu fundamentalism is local and Islamic one is international. Why would any person kill 200+ poor Kenyans, just to kill 12 Americans. The collateral damage to Islamic fundamentalist has no limits. Similarly, I disagree with people comparing Veitnamese struggle with Afghan struggle. There are so many differences that I do not want to go through them here. The Afghan Islamic revolution and jehad has actually more similarities with Pol Pot of Kampuchea and his plans to create an ideal society. Mullah Omar and Pol Pot have too much in common in terms of their world-view.

I have seen two different reports, one from Houston Texas and one from London, about calls to Muslim youth to try to seduce Kafir women as a way to bring them to Islam.

Would this count as extreme or moderate ?

Also of interest - a western reporter wandering in Rawalpindi`s bazaars found

``And a 1990 Pakistani social studies textbook, ``First Steps in Our History,`` calls the people of Hindustan ``weak and lazy.````

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011028/wl/attacks_postcard_from_pindi_1.html

Is that extreme, moderate or liberal ?

Just wondering,

Arun Gupta

Apologies for the delay in replying. Please give me some time, okay?

And Shammi, thanks for the addy. The letter is on its way...

An interview with V.S. Naipaul in sunday`s NY Times magazine

Questions for V.S. Naipaul on His Contentious Relationship to Islam

By ADAM SHATZ

Although your prose has been universally praised, you remain an object of considerable controversy. You have been charged with insensitivity and pandering to Western prejudices in your writings about Islam.

Well, that is the trouble with writing about Muslim people. There are people of the universities who want to run you out of town, and they`re paid to, and so they pay no attention to what you actually say.

You have described the Taliban as vermin.

No, that`s my wife! She`s a Pakistani journalist who for many years wrote a column. She writes from that kind of perspective.

Are you surprised by Osama bin Laden`s support in Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia and Iran -- countries you wrote about in your travel books on Islam?

No, because these are the converted peoples of Islam. To put it brutally, these are the people who are not Arabs. Part of the neurosis of the convert is that he always has to prove himself. He has to be more royalist than the king, as the French say.

Is this what you mean when you write about Islam`s imperial drive to extend its reach and root out the unbeliever?

Yes. It is not the unbeliever as the other person so much as the remnant of the unbeliever in one`s customs and in one`s ways of thinking. It`s this wish to destroy the past, the ancient soul, the unregenerate soul. This is the great neurosis of the converted.

more at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/28/magazine/28QUESTIONS.html

Re: Solitude #123

touche!!!!

(The following is quoted from the Wall Street Journal, Nancy deWolf Smith, Oct 23)

``It seems there was this fabric seller in a Kandahar bazaar. One day he noticed that an Indian-born merchant nearby was selling his material at cut-rate prices the Muslim couldn`t match. So he took his problem to the elders of his tribe: ``I`ll go under if I have to compete with this new guy, so would it be OK if I reminded customers that he`s a Hindu?`` It didn`t take the elders long to answer. ``No, that`s not nice,`` they said. ``But tell them he`s a Wahhabi. Then nobody will buy from him.``

So which of these mentioned here is extreme ? Moderate ? Liberal ?

-Arun Gupta

Farzana,

Islam needs a complete make-over or transformation to be of relevance in 21st century and beyond.

Transformation comes when elements in Quran are re-visited and/or modified. There are many hateful messages in the scripture and I do not blame the students in madrassas for that. After all, they are applying what they are reading.

I admit that many religions propagate extreme fundamentalism. The difference is that other religions have a mechanism to evolve; on the contrary, the islamic ``scholars`` want to hijack the islam to medieval 6/7th century and wish to implement an utopian model which by definition is barbaric to put it mildly.

There has to be a mechanism in Islam to excommunicate someone preaching hate. Unfortunately, all I hear from even the moderate islamic scholars is that ``islam is peaceful this and peaceful that`` and that Osama has to face his creator on judgement date. What about NOW?

I do have a solution though. An entreprising individual can come up with different versions of Quran just like there are boot-legged copies of software available on the cheap. Just like American dictionary is evolving and forces changes in the Oxford dictionary with drastic new words, etc, there could be various versions of Quran. For instance, paras where the call is made to ``kill the infidels`` that para could be changed to ``love the non-believers``.

One advantage is that down the line, say, in a madrassa where the mullah is teaching the Quran and there are 20 students with 10 students having one version, 5 students having a diff version and still another remaining students possessing totally diff versions. If the mullah is to propagate hate, it will be very difficult because the students are going to question the mullah.

If the mullah says, ``kill the infidels`` the student can raise his/her hand and say, that is not what is written and would say, ``love the non-believers``. It will be inconceivable for the mullah to take a hardline posture given the diff versions.

I expect these kinds of transformations to take place in the near future. This is what I meant by 2nd testament. And who knows, there could a true Quran sitting at the bottom of the ocean, just like someone finding the dead-sea scrolls(hint!hint!) which propagates harmony among all religions.

Thanks

Re: Urstruly

``...You cannot summons Gods favors by beating a drum and harmonium and 10 guys clapping in the background...``

LOL:) How about by standing waist deep in the river Yamuna in the dead of winter for 40 days (as was the penance required of many sufis)? Just kidding.

I read your post, understood only some parts of it. As a practical matter, I do not understand why religious dogma allows certain strictures that appear to have become out of date with time to be upheld in perpetuity (e.g. avoiding interest/usury in Islam that may be impractical in today`s world, banning cow-slaughter in Hinduism when N.Indian roads are covered with the filth of 100 million cattle, etc.). An insecure society may want to revert to fundamentalism for lack of anything better, but that can hardly pass as an excuse for not modernizing.

Suxena #118,

Hey, I didn`t mention your name either but judging from your response, are you admitting to being the moron I was referring to?

Your slipping sister and it ain`t pretty...

The Islamic Verdict on Suicide Bombings

Question

What is the ruling regarding acts of jihaad by means of suicide, such as attaching explosives to a car and storming the enemy, whereby he

knows without a doubt that he shall die as a result of this action?

Response

Indeed, my opinion is that he is regarded as one who has killed himself (committed suicide), and as a result he shall be punished in Hell, for that which is authenticated on the authority of the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam).

[((Indeed, whoever (intentionally) kills himself, then certainly he will be punished in the Fire of Hell, wherein he shall dwell forever)), [Bukhaaree (5778) and Muslim (109 and 110)]].

However, one who is ignorant and does not know, and assumes his action was good and pleasing to Allaah (Subhaanahu wa Ta`aala), then

we hope Allaah (Subhaanahu wa Ta`aala) forgives him for that which he did out of (ignorant) ijtihaad, even though I do not find any excuse

for him in the present day. This is because this type of suicide is well known and widespread amongst the people, so it is upon the

person to ask the people of knowledge (scholars) regarding it, until the right guidance for him is differentiated from the error.

And from that which is surprising, is that these people kill themselves despite Allaah having fordbidden this, as He (Subhaanahu

wa Ta`aala) says:

{And do not kill yourselves. Surely, Allaah is Most Merciful to you}, [Soorah an-Nisaa., Aayah 29].

And many amongst them do not desire anything except revenge of the enemy, by whatever means, be it halaal or haraam. So they only want

to satisfy their thirst for revenge.

We ask Allaah to bless us with foresight in His Deen and action(s) which please Him, indeed He is all Powerful over all things.

Shaykh Ibn `Uthaymeen *

Kayfa Nu`aalij Waaqi`unaa al-Aleem - Page 119

*One of the greatest scholars of this century, from Saudi Arabia

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

sites deserving recognition on their efforts to spread Islam

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

http://www.islamunity.homestead.com

www.musedserv.com

www.ekuhtba.com

www.islamworld.net

www.aicp.org

www.ummah.net

http://www.almuslim.org/articles/l_main.htm

www.iad.org

www.dawanet.com

http://www.analyzeislam.com/index.html

http://www.geocities.com/islamicparadise

http://www.northumbria.ac.uk/societies/islamic/index.htm

http://www.pressroom.com/

Re; Naqshbandi

Correction. There are muslims and then there are muslim nutcases like you - That`s a fair distinction and sooner the nutcases go to the houriland, better it will be for the rest of the world.

All this discussion between Hindus and Muslims. Oye taan hee mai kainda hun saarey Sikh banjao. It is the true synthesis of both religions.

Wahey Guruji ka Khalsa

Wahey Guruji ke Fateh

Raj Karega Khalsa

Aaquie Bachey Na Koi

Stuka

P.S.:This is not an attempt to undermine any one`s opinion/religion. Just that my knowledge of Hindu-Muslim relations in India is rather dated, but I did want to contribute something to the board ;)

P.S.S: Hey Farzana thanks for calling me a feudal on the other board. I`ll have you know that the Delhi Gymkhana kicked out Feudal Raja of Manda ex-prime minister VP Singhs Jee Maharaj for wearing pajamas to the club. LOL LOL Very anti feudal the Delhi Gym is.

Questions for V.S. Naipaul on His Contentious Relationship to Islam

By ADAM SHATZ



A:Although your prose has been universally praised, you remain an object of considerable controversy. You have been charged with insensitivity and pandering to Western prejudices in your writings about Islam.

N:Well, that is the trouble with writing about Muslim people. There are people of the universities who want to run you out of town, and they`re paid to, and so they pay no attention to what you actually say.

A:You have described the Taliban as vermin.

N:No, that`s my wife! She`s a Pakistani journalist who for many years wrote a column. She writes from that kind of perspective.

A:Are you surprised by Osama bin Laden`s support in Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia and Iran -- countries you wrote about in your travel books on Islam?

N:No, because these are the converted peoples of Islam. To put it brutally, these are the people who are not Arabs. Part of the neurosis of the convert is that he always has to prove himself. He has to be more royalist than the king, as the French say.

A:Is this what you mean when you write about Islam`s imperial drive to extend its reach and root out the unbeliever?

N:Yes. It is not the unbeliever as the other person so much as the remnant of the unbeliever in one`s customs and in one`s ways of thinking. It`s this wish to destroy the past, the ancient soul, the unregenerate soul. This is the great neurosis of the converted.

A:What then makes Islam`s appeal so potent?

N:I`ll tell you something from the eighth century. The first province of India to be conquered was the province of Sindh, which is today part of Pakistan. The king of Sindh resisted quite well. Then one day it was reported to him how the invaders said their prayers in unity as one man, and the king became frightened. He understood that this was a new force in the world, and it is what in fact Muslims are very proud of: the union of people. That idea of brotherhood is very powerful.

A:What about nonfundamentalist Islam?

N:I think it is a contradiction. It can always be called up to drown and overwhelm every movement. The idea in Islam, the most important thing, is paradise. No one can be a moderate in wishing to go to paradise.

The idea of a moderate state is something cooked up by politicians looking to get a few loans here and there.

A:What do you think were the causes of Sept. 11?

N:It had no cause. Religious hate, religious motivation, was the primary thing. I don`t think it was because of American foreign policy. There is a passage in one of the Conrad short stories of the East Indies where the savage finds himself with his hands bare in the world, and he lets out a howl of anger. I think that, in its essence, is what is happening. The world is getting more and more out of reach of simple people who have only religion. And the more they depend on religion, which of course solves nothing, the more the world gets out of reach. The oil money in the 70`s gave the illusion that power had come to the Islamic world.

It was as though up there was a divine supermarket, and at last it had become open to people in the Muslim world. They didn`t understand that the goods that gave them power in the end were made by another civilization. That was intolerable to accept, and it remains intolerable.

A:Do you think the events of Sept. 11 influenced the committee`s decision to give you the Nobel Prize?

N:I don`t know. I thought beginning in 1973 that I was being considered. And then I felt that great campaigns had been waged against me, quite successfully.

A:By whom?

N:People who were pillorying me as a racist and anti the third world.

A:Do you find the controversy around your work exhausting?

N:No, it doesn`t bother me at all. It`s important for writers to generate this kind of hostility. If a writer doesn`t generate hostility, he is dead.

A:You have admitted that you are no historian of Islam. Which scholars of Islam do you rely on?

N:No, no, no! I travel, and I meet people, and they tell me about their lives. I don`t need to read the scholars. If I travel in India or Africa, the best way to go is with a very blank mind and let the facts emerge.

A scholar would look at these people and draw conclusions. I don`t do that. The reader looks at these people and makes a pattern, and the pattern depends on the reader.

X

urstruly #153

...chicanery ! bin laden`s disciples try to confuse us with convoluted silly arguments while they plot their next move ....and shame on us if we fall for it - again

pakiessei #98 ``We, the christians of Pakistan, fully condemn the terrorist attack carried out against our brethren, and we hold India responsible for this heinous attack.``

Unless you have proof, you are jumping to conclusions. The thing to do is take protective measures for the future and to find the perpetrators and bring them to justice. Thus, e.g. I understand there was a policeman on duty protecting the church but he too was killed by the terrorists. This means there ought to be policemen, and they should be properly armed and ready to prevent a similar attack again. And perhaps a donation drive could be started for the family members of those victims who may suffer economic hardship due to the attack.

Just holding India responsible isnt going to do it.

Ras Siddiqui #116 Thanks for posting the Janoon interview. I am so glad that people in Pakistan have the courage to stand up for what is right. And bravo Salman Ahmad for speaking out clearly against the barbarism of 9/11.

I am not sure though if the concert took place on October 9 as planned. Do you or anyone else on chowk know anything about this concert?

Ten thousand turn out to mourn 17 Christians slain on Sunday.

WorldNews.com, Mon 29 Oct 2001

Memorial services are taking place in Pakistan for 17 Christians and a guard who were killed on Sunday after unidentified gunmen burst into a church and opened fire on worshippers. Huge crowds gathered all morning in the church compound.

Memorial services are taking place in Pakistan for 17 Christians and a guard who were killed on Sunday after unidentified gunmen burst into a church and opened fire on worshippers.

About 2000 grieving friends and relatives yesterday gathered outside St Dominic`s Catholic Church in Behawalpur, a city in Pakistan`s southern Punjam province.

Huge crowds gathered all morning in the church compound to mourn the dead.

They included local bishops along with Christians and Muslims from Behawalpur and surrounding areas.`` (www.pakistandaily.com)

This is largest number of Christians ever killed in Pakistan. Contrary to popular belief, Christians and Hindus are very rarely targeted in attacks like this, in Pakistan. Such attacks are usually between Shias and Sunnis.

Urstruly #153
Cutting off hands of thieves and stoning adulteresses to death is local culture, Arabic culture or pure fundamental Islam?

Shammi # 134

Sometimes rationalists like yourself make me envious of their rational skills:

You say:

``I read your post, understood only some parts of it``.

And yet in the rest of your post you delivered your verdict.

Sadna 142

Are you asking me or telling me?

Ras Siddiqui

“And on another note the $OB`s responsible for

the killing of Christians in Bahawalpur, a Punjabi saying ``Taim, Taim Di Gal Hai``. Your

days are numbered in Pakistan”

….amen to that….

..speaking of pakistani christians, on a different, yet positive note…

from sunday’s dawn:

Anyone logging on to the international music homepage, mp3.com will find that Voice of Freedom (previously known as The Speech) has been selected as the “promo song” of the week.

Incorporating the words and original 1948 recording of Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah, Voice of Freedom carries a message directly relevant to our troubled world, post Sept. 11.

Beginning with the Quaid’s voice, the song has been sung by 13-year-old British Pakistani, Sarah Francis.

The song has become so popular around the world that, in three weeks alone, it has shot from 73,668 place to the 52 ranking in the pop and rock charts, just behind Madonna, currently at number 41. In the pop charts alone, Voice of Freedom currently stands at number 29, below Madonna at number 24.

There has been so much praise for the song that Sarah’s manager has already been approached with requests for live performances in Holland, Switzerland and in the USA. Sarah’s voice has already shocked the world by her 44 semi-tone range. This song expresses 32 semi-tones. The Guinness Book of World Records is already considering Sarah for two new world records. The song and the lyrics can be found on the net at www.mp3.com/sarah_francis

Rsaxena:

“But if you insist that I submit something, would you be kind enough to take over my pretzel stand for two days? That will give me the time to write an article for Chowk.”

…..tsk…tsk….no lame-o excuses, please ….

Urstruly,

I have no issues with the ideas you have laid out. If some Muslims find it easier to be better human beings by making the distinctions you suggest, all power to them. What people think they are doing isn`t half as important as what they actually do.

And that is what raises big questions in my mind. Are you sure the distinction you have made between distinction and separation will be maintained beyond a small group of people and over time? Will the groups you mentioned -Deobandis and Wahabis (I don`t treat them as bogeymen) - maintain that distinction? If they don`t then what will be the mechanism to differentiate between the Islamic and the non Islamic aspects of one`s life?

It seems to me, for example, that there are some significant gaps between your views and thamed321`s views; Asif`s and ylh`s views; scout`s and fatimah`s views; or zafar`s and Hobbyty`s views. Do you think their differences will go away if they read the Quran more often?

The fact that ``let`s-all-return-to-pristine-religion`` sort of fundamentalism is fueled by some of the relatively ``modernized`` members of a group is not unusual. You would expect that. For instance, I am not sure how you will categorize people like Sir Syed Ahmed, Rahmat Ali, Iqbal, and Jinnah, but they were all well-educated individuals. The same was true for Raja Rammohan Roy, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, and Vir Savarkar. Just like Islamic fundamentalism, Hindu fundamentalism draws a large part of its support and sustenance from expatriates.

``This is largest number of Christians ever killed in Pakistan. Contrary to popular belief, Christians and Hindus are very rarely targeted in attacks like this, in Pakistan. Such attacks are usually between Shias and Sunnis.``

In pakistan pillion riding is banned, the badies apparently come as pillions. They cannot afford a spare motorcycle. Most of the time the killing takes place in mosques/churches/temples, the badies are smart, and places of worship ensures no collateral damage, which is a total no no under jihadic protocol.

stuka 138:

Hello Mr. Bush,`` a heavily accented voice says.

``This is Santa Singh down in Chandigadh, Punjab. I am ringing to inform you that I am officially declaring war on you!``

``Well, Santa Singh,`` Bush replies, ``This indeed is important news! Tell me, how big is your army?``

``At this moment in time,`` says Santa Singh after a moments calculation, ``There is myself, my cousin Banta Singh, my next door neighbor Gurjinder and the entire Kabbadi team from the Village. That makes 8!``

Bush sighs and says, ``I must tell you Santa Singh that I have 1 million men in my army waiting to move on my word.``

``OK,`` says Santa Singh. ``I`ll have to ring you back!``

Sure enough, the next day Santa Singh calls back.

``Right Mr. Bush, the war is still on! We have managed to acquire some equipment!``

``What equipment would that be, Santa Singh?`` Bush asks.

``Well, we have 2 combine harvesters, a bulldozer and Gill`s tractor from the farm.``

Once more Bush sighs and says, ``I must tell you Santa Singh that I have 50,000 tanks, 2000 minelayers,10,000 armored cars and my army has

increased to 1 and a half million since we last spoke.``

``I`ll be dogged!`` says Santa Singh. ``I`ll have to ring you back!``

Sure enough, Santa Singh calls again the next day.

``Right Mr. Bush, the war is still on! We have managed to get ourselves airborne! We`ve gotten out old Govind`s crop sprayer with a couple of

rifles in the cockpit and the Hockey team has joined us as well!``

Once more Bush sighs and says ``I must tell you Santa Singh that I have 4000 bombers and 8000 high maneuverability attack planes and my

military installations are surrounded by laser guided surface to air missiles and since we last spoke, my army has increased to 2 million.``

``Oh cripes,`` says Santa Singh. ``I`ll have to ring you back.``

Santa Singh calls again the next day. ``Okay Mr.Bush, I am sorry to tell you that we have had to call off the war.``

``I`m very happy to hear that,`` says Bush. ``Why the sudden change of heart?``



``Well,`` says Santa Singh, ``We`ve all had a chat and to be sure, there`s no way we can cope with 2 million prisoners of war.``

harimou/shah,

thank you!

When hindu/muslim bigots join hands to deride me, it warms the cockles of my heart.

Pl keep up the good work; it makes my day!

Veeresh (#38):

My surname is Versey, so it causes greater confusion than Malik. As for Farzana, I manage the berry pulao at Parsi restaurants…I happen to like matthri and lassi…

[Farzana, seriously, call yourself Saraswati Muddaliar Ramalingam or something for six months, and see if it feels different?]

Aiyyo, no one would believe it. But in the best phillum tradition I did call myself Sunita and went to Pydhonie and, boy, it does feel different. All the smoke billowing out of razed structures and yet those darned Mussalmans insisted on giving me doodh ka sherbet with Rooh Afza.

[forget Behram Pada and Antop Hill for a while, Farzana, and come walk the inner

lanes of Dharavi and Kamatipura with me and tell me if your religion or mmatters?]

Walk with you there? I have spent months in these places. In Ka,mathipura as a trustee of a crèche working with children of commercial sex workers and in Dharavi at the tanneries when I was researching on child labour. My religion may not matter to them and their religion may not matter to each other, but the drummer boys and girls will use them for precisely that. You might think that sex and poverty are the great levelers, but the extent of regional divide here is to be seen to be believed.

macgupta (#37):

[Toleration is not a virtue, coexistence is; the enemies of coexistence need not be

tolerated. Tolerant societies have the problem of figuring out how to tolerate those who want to destroy the society. Coexistent societies do not face this paradox….I see Ms. Versey`s article demanding coexistence and not simply tolerance. ( The existing tolerance has a nasty condescension to it as well.)]

Arun, that is indeed what I am saying, the only problem is that I used the hammer instead of the chisel to drive home the point. But then I am not a sculptor creating a showpiece.

Jay (#42):

[There is a fine print detail, all the hijackers as far as it is known came from one religios background.. and you will get full marks, that 0.1 for guessing that religion. Let me give you a clue, leaders of that religion from kashmir refused to have any meeting with the indian goverment, while they insisted and secured a meeting with the miltary dictator of a neighbouring islamic country.]

Let me return the compliment – you too are such a simple soul. For, leaders from Kashmir are IN the government. If you are referring to the Hurriyat (thereby assuming they rule Kashmir), then there is a small error here: they did not refuse to meet the Indian government, our govt. refused to meet them, or be present at the tea party at the Pak High Commission where they met Prez Musharraf.

As for “politically correct” politicians insisting it was an act of terrorists, I do not understand whether you have a problem with political correctness in this context. Are you implying the politicians belonging to a certain religion who made these comments are merely being politically correct and not genuine?

Faruk (#50):

Maulana Azad was a liberal, but what did he get for it? He is still referred to as a “Muslim scholar” and was completely sidelined post-partition. And the latter-day interpreters of Islam, by making the Book an issue, seriously damage the ground realities. Which is why I cannot call Dr. Zakaria a liberal. That is the problem with anyone who seeks power of any kind. As you said, “About the Imam and Shabana. They are politicians looking for a constituency that’s it.” That should be it, but the spill-over effect is frightening.

[“ Why can Muslims not be political, social, ideological creatures in the country of their birth? “

When in the 54 yrs since independence has this right ever been challenged? When?]

Not on paper, but in the lives of some it is a constant struggle. Do you think that those who are perceived as having a ‘distinctly Islamic’ identity are not looked at with suspicion? How easy is it for their children to get into government schools, except perhaps those run by Muslim Trusts? And if you live in Mumbai, let me give you one more example. A new building is coming up in a nice locality. The owners of a well-known chain of department stores booked a few flats, paid the deposit to the builder. At some stage when they discovered that many of the residents were Muslim, they took the money back. And it was done blatantly, no other excuses offered. And the Muslims who will live there are well-to-do, educated and cosmopolitan (at least 3 doctors, who have Hindu relatives by marriage). We are talking 54 years after independence.

This therefore also acts as a threat to the cultural identity. To answer your query: “are you trying to say we have a different culture because of our faith”, unfortunately we become what we are perceived to be. And in small ways faith imbues one’s culture, even if one gives up the faith. Even if food constitutes a part of culture (for me it does!), then you will notice the disparities; people often do not touch water in the houses of people from certain communities. It happens, whether you and I like it or not.

And yes, thanks for the comments.

Mahesh (#60):

[I forgot to ask you a couple of questions in my previous posts]

I thought so :)

[1) Why do you think Hindus will only consider a Muslim liberal if he/she sports a bindi?]

I took this from a comment about how so-and-so is a liberal, unlike a Muslim, she even wears a bindi…I admit it was a flippant remark for me to use, for when I wear a bindi, they ask me to open an ashram! Ok, even this is flip…see, if you manage to adopt something different from the confines of what you are, you are seen as a rebel; the difference here is that liberalism has become the new establishment, entirely corruptible.

[2) Do you consider the concept of thinking all religions are equal is a cliche worthy of derision?]

I was making a dig at professional liberals. Personally, I believe all religions are equal – equally bad. (Though things like Scientology have their virtues; some call it Tom Cruise.)

Eklavya (#66):

[One thing the readers must have noticed about this author is that she writes passionately.]

Forgot my name?! I am trying to follow the IDEAL….to be honest, I even practise it. But when one is on a forum and emphasizing certain things, they do not always sound palatable.

PS: I am glad you mentioned Asgharali Engineer in another post. I admire the man immensely. Had interviewed him. It was published. Chowk has it, but for some reason they prefer using my opinion pieces. I want his voice to be heard here.

hamidm (#69):

[and that, ms. versey, is the danger in being a ``cultural`` muslim ......... there is only one kind of muslim and the rest, according to god and gabriel and urstruly, are either apostates or heretics or plain old infidels .......... take your pick and get ready to face the wrath of the most merciful and benevolent ..........]

Since god and Gabriel are not accessible at the moment, I shall have to depend on urstruly, who has called me various things, but I forget. However, I make sure that little things keep me in fine fettle, besides green tiles in the bathroom (it works – feels like Sita doing the clean-up job in the forests during her banwaas). And what do you know, the little shelf that carries tooth-paste etc has ‘786’ written on it and the sticker has refused to unpeel after all these years. I think there must be some superior power at work (reportedly the smuggler-turned-legit-foreign-goods seller) who has ensured that my stock of deodorants is never exhausted. Just for that I do feel like saying allah ka shuk’r hai.

PS: In India we rarely hear Allah Hafiz….but when an unannounced visitor goes over to a house where the family is eating their humble meal of dry kebabs and greasy roghan zosh, he/she is greeted with, “Bolo Bismillah”. And here the hand of god plays a wonderful trick. The apostate/heretics that we are, we plonk down and dig spoons into the holy mess. Allah ka shuk’r hai…

scout (#76):

[You`re a talented lady, don`t give any credence to the developmentally delayed who hurl personal insults to you on an anonymous board.]

Oh, that was sweet! And no, I do not give them credence, I merely give them an opportunity to further delay their development.

Layman (#100):

That was very generous. Life is indeed full of eye-openers. You mentioned there were several things you did not agree with. Would you like to share them?

Shirin Ahmed (#106):

When you are featured and you are a writer you become a ‘featured writer’ :) Sirf ek gilaa hai: “yaarab na woh samjhe hai, na samjhenge meri baat”…lagta hai “mujhko zubaan aur” ki talaash mein jaana padhega, doosra koi raasta nazar nahin aata!

Jagdeep (#112):

Since you started out on the right note (by agreeing with me!), I think I should address your later doubts.

[But as I read on I get the feeling that either you are totally confused or the whole article is an exercise to pour your heart out against one or two individuals.]

Not totally confused, but a bit. That is the state of the ideology – I think romair made a few interesting points about it in his initial posts. As for pouring my heart out against individuals – I had the choice of not naming people and indulging in innuendo, but that does not work for me. And they are the public face of what I am talking against. Since they want to represent a large section of the population, they are answerable to some of us.

Truth (#119):

[Farzana: Could you please clarify whether Rafiq Zakaria was classifying you as a sinner or whether he was observing that, under Sharia, you would be classified a sinner.]

Undoubtedly the latter. Now whether he believes the shariat himself or not is a different thing– if he doesn’t and he is quoting it, then it is far worse.

NotAMulklah (#120):

Excuse me, but I have yet to meet common Muslims who are trying to adhere to “7th century ideals of a far far away land”; some fools do, but not all are fools. And those who assume that such a thing happens in India are the greater fools.

[So how about a ``cliche``. Who are you?]

Will a “kafir Muslim” do? Or do you have copyright over it?

Regards,

Farzana

To the blighters…

If some of you think you are important enough in my life to shake me, make me or break me, you are mistaken. All your smart bombs are missing me by a few miles. There is indeed place for discourse and disagreement, but this one category has contributed zilch. Unlike you, I do not go on every board to drop turd if I have not been able to ingest the meal in the first place. If my harangue is tiresome, then what’s so refreshing about the interacts? The sexual jibes would not even work in a locker-room, but then it depends on your level of desperation. Ah, yes, there is a new pun on my name – and since this is the one remarkable thing this person has contributed to Chowk, I shall not rob him of his moment of glory. May I, in the new tradition being adopted on these boards, say I am glad I provoked you to write a couple of great posts? On a more serious note, I realise that some of you can conveniently throw around terms like ‘I am angry’, ‘I was pissed off’, ‘my frustrations’, but I am not permitted to vent the same anger and frustrations for what are valid issues according to me. I am writing about an important aspect of my country.

Then there are the regulars who not only have to visit every board of mine, but make references to me on other Boards as well. “The Farzana Versey School of Thought”, indeed. And after all this I am not supposed to feel narcissistic? Come now, if you had some sense you would have ignored me, but you don’t.

And for the one who talks about my sour grapes, well, considering I have problems with Advani, Ashok Singhal, Javed Akhtar, Imam Bukhari, why has this accusation not been made wrt to them? For a woman you are playing that same male game – a woman must be envious of another. I happen to admire many of them – feisty, famous and most important of all genuine. There is great potential for sour grapes here and I could start a winery. But not with Azmi’s help. For, her PRO needs to call me, I do not have to call her.

As for the one and only one who wants to sponsor my trip to Kabul, I am now ready. Please send me my ticket AND a permit (it is tough getting one of those, I believe) at the Chowk address. Waiting in anticipation…

And for those who have nothing to say, don’t. Really, you are not on camera or on test. And, please do not fire the gun from other people’s shoulders. It is silly to twist what dost-mittar, veeresh, eklavya have said to suit yourself. For they are not here to score points. I KNOW that. As for Tahmed, he simply said he did not understand. Besides, since his choice was between reading the article again and going out to ‘get a life’, I am sure he chose the latter. After all, you live only once whereas an article can always be surfed in cyber heaven or hell.

Solitude (#122):

Welcome back. I see you haven’t changed at all, and familiarity is always so comforting. I am a bit surprised though that people hibernate to warmer climes, so how is it that you have returned with your frozen ideas? Or do you suffer from the Oliver Twist dilemma that even if you were to ask for more the uncles and aunts Fagin of Chowk would deny you that broth and you would have to subsist by thawing cold cuts? Why am I not replying to the content of your post? Because you are not telling me anything that I do not already know.

I do hope that during your absence you were having fun. Does not seem so, going by your limited idea of enjoyment. If the “antidote” had worked, YOU would not be sounding so hysterical. Anyway, thanks for having arrived and registered your presence. You will find quite a few like you. Even if you imagine that being solitude you are a lone ranger fighting the battles of delusion (while creating your own), the rest are doing the same. So, you can guide the herd to the green green grass of Rome and all you Neros can fiddle as much as you want, crack up at your own orgiastic jokes and, in the celebratory mood, your comrades too might want to stuff some cake into you – provided of course the said portions it is designated for are not otherwise occupied.

Ooh, where are my manners? Thanks for the “civility” and your enviable ability to “co-exist”.

Regards,

Farzana

Chowkies,

I am very saddened and shocked by the massacre of Christians who were praying in Church two days ago. I actually heard about this attack last night after coming home from work. This is an act that is utterly deplorable, inhuman and must be condemned by all Pakistanis and people of Pakistani descent.

I have refrained from speaking about non USA issues because I feel it is not my place, to some degree. However, I feel this incident is an exception; this massacre lessens and injures all of us, the way any attack on an innocent people does. I know that there are many Pakistanis and Pakistan-Americans on Chowk who feel the same way. The report of thousands of Pakistanis mourning the slaying of these Christian Pakistanis points to the growing concern over the issue of the status of Christian Pakistanis. I sincerely hope that the perpetrator/s of this crime are caught and brought to justice immediately. I also hope that this horrifying attack reminds us of the status of minority communities in our respective countries and that we need to be vigillant in ensuring their/our various rights (through policy, brother/sisterhood, friendship, linkages) against those who would try to transgress the bounds of human decency.

regards

Farzana: one more feather in your cap; this was excellent! If every woman could stand up for her beliefs the way you do, I think many of the problems plaguing the female gender would slowly diminish. Though of course, as you can well see, many egotistical men find it difficult to digest such notions. I love to see them simmer with anger and jealousy. More power to you!

Definitely my most favorite lines from you:

[``The burqa as laaj-sharam Muslim or the burqa as chaudhvin ka chaand romanticised Muslim? The dum pukht Muslim or the Dom Perignon Muslim? The Holy Quran Muslim or the holy cow Muslim? The openly jihadi Muslim or the closet fundamentalist Muslim? Your sugar won’t melt in my mouth Muslim or the lohe ke channe chabanewalla Muslim? The kamsin bibi Muslim or the come sin babe Muslim?``]

Keep it coming. We can`t stop showing them their real faces.

Khair-andaish

Kiran

This is written by a loyal dyed-in-blue-&-red American.



Let the `moderates` & `liberals`(codewords for those whose a/sses,hearts and brains try to go in three different directions at the same time.

It is traumatic when all the westernised education(the artsy/fartsy kind)is reduced to nothing.Ever wonder why the bearded-ones are,mashallah,winning on all fronts?

(In case memories are short all those named had the looks & manners of `liberal` & `moderates`.They drank,fornicated & gambled....some of the feathers in the proud caps of `liberals` or `moderates` or ,these days `sufis`)

__________________________________________________

A MOMENT OF REFLECTION

On September 11th, four teams of hijackers walked past the security at three major metropolitan airports and hijacked four aircraft. Two were crashed into the World Trade Towers, one into the Pentagon, and one was apparently and thankfully shot down before it could reach its target.

The media call these perpetrators terrorists. Given that we don`t really know exactly who they were and what belief systems they were slaves to, we cannot know whether they called themselves holy warriors, freedom fighters, or something else. I doubt they call themselves terrorists for using unconventional tactics, no more than the American colonists who used unconventional tactics that the British found morally repugnant called themselves terrorists.

But what we do know about these people is that they were educated. They were pilots. They were equipped to survive in modern American culture. Minus their hate, they could have been prosperous and successful here. With their hate, because of their hate, they were willing to throw their education, their prosperity, their futures, and their lives away in a blinding flash as aluminum ploughed into concrete with hundreds of innocent lives following just a few feet behind.

How could anyone hate America enough to throw their own lives away in their attacks on the symbols of our nation`s economic and military power? I mean it`s not like someone just wakes up one morning and decides to hijack a jet passenger liner and use it to knock down a skyscraper and is willing to die in the process because there`s nothing good to watch on TV. Nobody wakes up and says, “Gee the baseball game got rained out, let`s go blow up a building.” Anyone willing to commit such a crime as we have seen this week is seriously pissed off about something, and in order to stop more attacks we need to face up to what that something is.

We`re not talking “lone nuts”, but entire teams of people willing to die in their attacks on our buildings and against our citizens. What makes these people so hate us that they would sacrifice their lives in their eagerness to strike at us?

Maybe it`s because America, despite lovely speeches about bringing freedom and democracy to the world, has a record of backing some of the worst dictators to be found. The US Government, for reasons of commercial interest, backed men like Batista, Pinochet, and the Shah of Iran, despots who drove their people into poverty to enrich American corporations until their people rebelled. Then we befuddled Americans scratch our heads and wonder why those people don`t seem to like us very much.

Maybe people hate us because what we call Peacekeepers still looks and feels like an invading army to those who stop the bullets, step on the land mines, and catch the bombs.

Maybe it`s because the US Government has executed its foreign policy by tricking nations into fighting each other. Saddam was our buddy once, when he was useful to our policy towards Iran. We The People paid for the Supergun. Our government sold Saddam the first of his biological weapons. Then our government decided they didn`t need him any more, told him it would be okay if he invaded Kuwait and declared war on him, blowing up the Supergun and the biological weapons (we hope). Think maybe Saddam carries a grudge? I sure would if I was double crossed like that.

We played the same double cross with Osama Bin Laden, our ally and a CIA contract agent in Afghanistan, funded with $6 billion of YOUR tax dollars, now branded a supervillian worthy of a comic book. Remember the last time our government decided to “take care of Osama?” We blew up an aspirin factory in Sudan. Big joke, that was. You, the taxpayers, not only got to pay for the million-a-shot cruise missiles, you also got to pay to rebuild the aspirin factory when the owners sued the USA, with Vernon Jordan as their attorney! Think the people who worked in that factory (the ones who survived at any rate) like us? I doubt it.

Maybe the reason people in the middle east are willing to conduct holy wars against us is because so many holy wars were conducted against them in the past, going back to the so-called “Holy” Crusades.

Jerusalem was conquered on 7/15/1099 and 60,000 non-Christians were killed. Bodies were slit open to search for gold coins they might have swallowed. Jews who had taken refuge in the city`s synagogue were burned alive, thousands of muslims were chopped to death in Al-Aqsa mosque. According to the Archbishop of Tyre, who was an eye-witness, ``It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished.`` Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that ``even the following summer in all of Palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition``.

After rude behavior like that, nobody would be welcome again.

Maybe people are willing to use terror attacks against us because we use terror attacks against them. In 1985, authorized by William Casey, the CIA planted a car bomb near a mosque in Beirut to kill Sheik Mohammed Hossein Fadlallah, a muslim cleric. The bomb missed the Sheik but killed 80 people, including children. Is it really okay for us to use tactics we condemn in others? No, it isn`t. If they are morally wrong to use car bombs that kill innocent people, then so are we.

Or maybe the reason so many people hate us enough to die attacking us is something as simple as growing up watching your playmates blown to bloody bits before your eyes, and picking up a piece of shrapnel stamped, “Made in the USA”. It is silly to think that anyone could endure a childhood like that and remain entirely positive about the USA. Because for all its public talk of peace, the United States remains the largest exporter of mechanized death in the world. And if it is acceptable for the victims of guns to blame the gun makers for their injuries, it must be equally acceptable for the victims of bombs, missiles, and mines, to blame the weapons makers as well.

It is far less than clear just who is behind the attacks in New York and Washington DC. Fingers have been pointed at Saddam Hussein, Arafat, and ex CIA agent Osama Bin Laden. It may be any one of them. It may be all three. It may be none of them. It could be the work of a third party, unknown and unseen, with the goal of triggering yet another war where the blood of innocents will be bartered for greater wealth and influence. We do know that those who hijacked the planes went to a great deal of effort to steal identities of Middle Eastern Arabs and use them on their forged identifications.

What also know is that wars are often started with deceptions. Sun Tzu states in ``The Art Of War`` that all warfare is based on deception, and that rulers must cultivate the appearance of moral rightness in order to persuade their nations to fight.

When Hitler needed the support of the German people to invade Poland, he got it by staging a phony attack complete with dead bodies in Polish uniforms on the German side of the border. Recently declassified documents prove that Pearl Harbor wasn`t quite the total surprise it was claimed to be. And the story about stolen incubators that angered America into support of Desert Storm turned out to be a complete fiction created by Hill ∓ Knowlton, a public relations firm that has grown rich lying to people on behalf of governments, ANY governments, and whose executives have bragged, “We would represent Satan, if he paid us.”

Forget for a moment who was hurt in these attacks, and study who benefited.

A few weeks ago the USA was factionalized, her people justly critical of the policies of the government, questioning even if that government`s taxes were legal, questioning the support of Israel, questioning the handling of the Condit case, questioning Waco, questioning a self-critical nation demanding answers to some tough questions; answers the government did not have.

Now, the United States has been transformed. All criticism is gone, Criticism itself is now deemed to be, instead of the right of the people, an act of treason.

In the blink of an eye our nation has gone from being 266 million thinking citizens wanting to know if the government is right to 266 million conscripts willing to follow the government into war even if it is wrong. In the blink of an eye the people have stopped blaming the government for the worsening economy and shifted that blame to the “terrorists”.

The government of the United States has reasserted its power over the people. It is stronger, much stronger, because if this attack. And any educated student of history would know ahead of time that this strengthening of the US government`s power would be the result of horrendous attacks such as we have seen..

Israel, criticized by the world for its treatment of displaced Palestinians, now finds that criticism silenced. For the foreseeable future, Israel can do what it will with the Palestinians, immune from the censure of the world`s press, burying the Palestinian cause under the rubble of the World Trade Towers.

Unless he is still working for the CIA, Osama Bin Laden would not have wanted to cause any of the changes which have resulted from the horrific attacks on New York and Washington DC. The attacks made the US government stronger. Who benefits from that? That stronger US Government is now ready to wage war against the Arabs. Who benefits from that?

Who really gained from the attacks in New York and Washington DC? Whose political agendas were advanced by the attacks? That is where to look for the planners of the World Trade Towers attacks.

That we have been attacked is certain. But before we send out the cruise missiles to prove how big our national dick is, we had better make sure we are aimed at the right party, and not just being suckered into bombing someone that the real planners and perpetrators of the World Trade Center attack want to trick us into bombing. Because if, in the heat of the moment and the lust for vengeance we surrender our basic American principles such as demand for proof beyond a reasonable doubt, then we ourselves will have damaged America and what it stands for far more than those who attacked the World Trade Center could ever do themselves. What the hijackers could not knock down, we will have thrown down ourselves. If we do that, then those who planned and carried out the attacks against the World Trade Towers and the Pentagon will have won, even if we hunt them down and kill them.

Don`t be a slave to your beliefs about what a government could or could not do. History is full of governments that perpetrated monumental frauds upon their own people to trigger a war. Governments HAVE to commit fraud to start a war because most people, especially Americans, refuse to initiate a war of conquest. They have to have the illusion they have been attacked first.

5,000 lives are a lot. But to a government, ours or anyone else`s, it`s a tiny fraction of a percent to sacrifice to bring 100% of the nation under control, isn`t it? And if we go into a protracted war in Afghanistan, a region that has resisted invasion for the last 2000 years, we will soon long for the days when our dead could be counted in mere thousands.

The World Trade Towers cost a billion dollars. That`s 1/10th of a percent of what the Department Of Defense misplaced last year, and a drop in the barrel compared to the worth of the oil sitting under the lands we are about to attack.

Are you really so sure you have been told the truth about what is going on?

ree different direction at the same time).

Farzana: one more feather in your cap; this was excellent! If every woman could stand up for her beliefs the way you do, I think many of the problems plaguing the female gender would slowly diminish. Though of course, as you can well see, many egotistical men find it difficult to digest such notions. I love to see them simmer with anger and jealousy. More power to you!

Definitely my most favorite lines from you:

[``The burqa as laaj-sharam Muslim or the burqa as chaudhvin ka chaand romanticised Muslim? The dum pukht Muslim or the Dom Perignon Muslim? The Holy Quran Muslim or the holy cow Muslim? The openly jihadi Muslim or the closet fundamentalist Muslim? Your sugar won’t melt in my mouth Muslim or the lohe ke channe chabanewalla Muslim? The kamsin bibi Muslim or the come sin babe Muslim?``]

Keep it coming. We can`t stop showing them their real faces.

Khair-andaish

Kiran

Urstruly #144
Are the practices of cutting off hands of thieves and stoning adulteresses to death, part of local culture, Arabic culture or pure fundamental Islam?

Anny # 150

God! that was the bestest Sikh joke I`ve ever heard.

Anny # 150

God! that was the bestest Sikh joke I`ve ever heard.

Well I have one too.

A sikh was passing through a mangoe garden once, salivating, riding his horse. He looked around and couldnt see the watchman around. So he grabs a mangoe and tries to break it from the branch. The branch was too strong and he puts all his wieght to break the mango. While he was ding that the horse underneath him slid leaving him hanging with the mango. His bad luck that the watch man appears with his club at the moment, who asks him ``what the hell are you doing?``

``I fell from my horse`` replied Sikh.

Hamzad

re: article

There is no excuse for what the Sept. 11 terrorists did. I get the feeling that a lot of articles are getting posted by some specific Chowkies and being used to justify these kinds of attacks, in a very disturbing way. I read an article in the NY Times Magazine last week in which a journalist went to several cities to check the tenor of specific Muslim communities post WTC attack. (I agree with Farzana Versey`s question about why non Muslims are never asked these questions: MAJOR assumptions being made in these cases)I was disgusted by the comments of some Muslim students in Hamburg (basically unfazed), and the distinction madein Egypt nad the Occupied Territories that terrorism done in the name of Palestinian independence is ``martyrdom``. In my undergraduate years I worked in a Palestinian (multi-religious and racial) educational organization, and the idea of terrorism as a legitimate response to Israeli oppression was NEVER condoned and in fact, was never perceived as an option. It still isn`t. If we allow these kinds of anarchic, inexcusable excuses to continue, we can expect more massacres similar to the one in the Pakistani church.

It is one thing to view events within a historical and political context-and that context should be within reason. Bringing everything back to the Crusades, for God`s sake, is not very instructive in any real way unless it is used to point out how religion is manipulated by people across class and belief lines to justify land aquisition, inequity, etc. I have gotten over the Crusades, and I am sure most of us have, na? Those ``beards`` who havent, can come speak to me about a little matter concerning Adam and Eve, if you want to take ``it`` all the way back. And MY interpretation was that Eve was given a bum rap. Perhaps we women should make up for it...and I am sure that wouldn`t go over so well with the apologists...

regards

Farzana,

You are so confident about your description why the school was not built. Are you sure that was the important or only reason? Was this a government school?

Education of some Indian Muslim`s children and Mughal raj.

Some Chowk people have been saying how their children can not get education in India except in Muslim trust schools. This is very amzaing. In India there are two types - private schools and government run schools. Private schools are very exensive except religious private schools. Only people who can afford to go to expensive private schools go to there. Most very large percentage of schools in India is government run schools. Most Hindu and other children go to these government schools. Getting admitted to schools is getting very hard for all Indians.

Studbaker once said that people like him dont want to send their children to government schools because these children will be taught unislamic things. When it is so hard for people to find admissions anywhere, is this the attitude to help you?

I ask people who hate India so much. If like most Hindus you too are poor to send your children to expensive private schools, have you tried sending your children to government run schools? Have they kept you out? At least studbaker is honest. He is not interested in India, doenst want to be an Indian unless India was Mughal raj.

If you are Indian, please forget the thinking that this is Mughal raj. You are hurting yourself and your children by sitting out, cursing everyone in hatred, letting hatred in your heart blacken everything. For India to be part of you, you have to be part of India. Other than tall claims and bitter words, I see no posiitve action by these people. Just being bitter that you lost your hereditary Gaddi to rule over the dirty Hindus doesnt help. Only you make others return your anger with anger.

[Farzana: Could you please clarify whether Rafiq Zakaria was classifying you as a sinner or whether he was observing that, under Sharia, you would be classified a sinner.]

Undoubtedly the latter. Now whether he believes the shariat himself or not is a different thing– if he doesn’t and he is quoting it, then it is far worse.

We now know what he said. You blame others for twisting words, when you do it blatantly.

Mr. Zakaria was telling you that you will go to hell if Shariyat was followed even today. You twist the words to say that he told you that you will go to hell. Then you say ``it was worse`` if he told you that you will go to hell according to shariya if he doensn`t believe in sharia. He was showing you the absurdity of sharia which you are deperate to implement in India and indian Muslims.

Dont resort to lying.

Urstruly (Reply #: 123 )

I have heard a lot of arguments about Barelvis, wahabis etc. being the sole malaise of muslims. People tend to trace the source of muslims discontent/double-mindness to the root of sect. Nothing can be farther from truth or atleast distractionary.

Muslims r from various backgrounds, even the ones having same sect. Social behavour is mostly influenced by the socio-economic conditions they live in. A moderate muslim in Pakistan tend to be religious exteremist (in social sense) if he lives with his family in Europe, when faced with completely different social conditions. A muslim from conservative family background in Pakistan may be very moderate and secular if financially independent. Most of the muslims living in cities like Lahore and Karachi dont even know which sect they belong to (except knowing that they r sunnis or shias). Nobody knows of any one particular `aalim` or ulema to follow. People follow religion on their own. What was the last time, any religious decree given by any ulema was followed on large scale? this may happen in Saudi Arab, where ulema r on the royal pay roll, but not in pakistan, where even if ulema r paid, no body would listen to them.

The sole problem with Pakistan is that narrow-minded religion of Saudi type was being introduced by pakistani govt and religious parties for many reasons:

1. Military regimentation of poor youth for Kashmir and Afghnaistan front

2. Making west fearful of religious transformation of muslim nuclear power, and hence its enegagement with pakistan (read more aid). After Soviet union, paki army was not making any money (narcotics smuggling ban in effect)

3. Tunneling the civilian anger (coming out of lack of control over civilian affairs, and growing anarchy) towards common foreign enemies (Russia, USA, India). Very good way to avoid pressure against army to strengthen army`s rule.

Irnonically, most os these objectives r shared by other muslim dictaor countries except that Israel is the target rather than India.

Given a free and democratic society, where the freedom of thinking is genuinely and indegeniously developed (rather than living in some foreign free society), religion becomes the sole propriety of a person, rather than of some selecetd few of God.

How can we get religion rid of the dictatorial rule of selected few (such as in Iran and Saudi Arab)? I think any society free for some dissent can take its course to a genuine freedom and secular society in the long run. The path that Iran (and Turkey a long time ago) leads to very stable democracy, i believe.

urstruly,

another problem with good muslims is that they have their shaving priorities all wrong.... upside down, literally.

re: AnNy # 150

Now, where has this sense of humor been hidden all these days?!

Absolutely marvellous.

P.S. In service of political correctness, if you have any ``Hindu`` or other jokes tucked away, do share :)

Farzana #152:

Your reply reg Rafiq Zakaria has me totally confused. If I were to observe that, in certain Indian households, brides get burnt for insufficient dowry, would you hold that observation against me? If Rafiq Zakaria were to observe that, under Sharia, you would be a sinner if you did XYZ, why does it get your goat? Neither he nor I would be legitimizing the behavior by observing that it occurs.

Farzana # 152

“Maulana Azad was a liberal, but what did he get for it? He is still referred to as a “Muslim scholar” and was completely sidelined post-partition. “

I don’t think I will agree with that, but we can debate that forever.

”Not on paper, but in the lives of some it is a constant struggle. Do you think that those who are perceived as having a ‘distinctly Islamic’ identity are not looked at with suspicion? How easy is it for their children to get into government schools, except perhaps those run by Muslim Trusts? “

I would tend to disagree with this too, what about the schools run by the UP govt. in Muslim dominated area’s of Badoi, Muradabad etc. or the schools run by the MP govt. in old Bhopal. There are many more examples but you get the point.

“A new building is coming up in a nice locality. The owners of a well-known chain of department stores booked a few flats, paid the deposit to the builder. At some stage when they discovered that many of the residents were Muslim, they took the money back. And it was done blatantly, no other excuses offered. And the Muslims who will live there are well-to-do, educated and cosmopolitan (at least 3 doctors, who have Hindu relatives by marriage). We are talking 54 years after independence. “

That is very unfortunate! but I remember a Hindu classmate of mine mention in 19991 that his family was moving to Charmwood village south of Delhi and one of his neighbors would be Salma Sultan a popular newscaster on DD, it was a big selling point for the people selling the place . While we are deploring the “owners of a well-known chain of department stores” we should not fail to mention that Muslims do that as well. Take a look at the localities around Jamia Millia Islamia in Delhi for example. Its exclusively Muslim. The Indian govt. gives you the right, the opportunity and the freedom to be a moron.

”unfortunately we become what we are perceived to be.”

You become what you want to be if you want it bad enough.

“Even if food constitutes a part of culture (for me it does!), then you will notice the disparities; “

Sure isn’t that great! I wouldn’t have it any other way. Take England for example they are probably a people united by a lousy traditional cuisine. Its bad and the same throughout that country.

“people often do not touch water in the houses of people from certain communities. It happens, whether you and I like it or not”

I think we have come a long way from the times of the untouchables, the Hindu chai wala and Muslim chai wala of pre independence India. We have a long way to go but at the same time we have achieved a lot. We have one of the most ambitious though largely unrealized plans to help the weaker sections of our society.

Regards,

Faruk.

anNy #150 Ha! Ha! That was the funniest sikh joke I have heard for some time. substitute ``taliban`` for ``sikh`` and I think the joke becomes the headlines we see nowadays.

hamzad afaqui #159 That was a good article you posted. One day we Pakistanis too will also start asking questions like ``Why do so many Indians on chowk hate us?``

BTW I am sorry to have ridiculed you a bit in my previous post and regret any unhappiness (that is the only word that comes to my head) you may have felt as a result.

Re: Sameer, #124

I understood well that your ``bad Muslim`` was in jest and not serious. To me, however, you made and raised a very valid point; hence, my post.

The problem--I`d say the tragedy--of Islam is that it never developed, or, more accurately, was not allowed, to a higher level of civilization and culture. For many reasons going way back into Islamic history, Islam got stuck in the quagmire of narrow interpretation of the Book and saying of the Prophet (one always wonders about the authenticity of all those sayings,) interpreted, to this day, to serve personal and political goals. And today`s masses, starved of food and knowledge and devoid of thinking outside the little box and of any hope for the future, respond with thunder.

Any Muslim who dares to stray from the Straight Path is brutally silenced by those who think they know the Book real well. The smart ones learn the lesson quickly. To cite just one example, The Friday Times must include PBUH everytime it mentions the Prophet; it just knows it too well that if it did not do that, its entire facility would be set to fire and the TFT would cease to exist. Now, what rational being would want to risk that?

Unlike European Christianity and Judaism, Islam never freed itself from the shackles of rituals and closed-mindedness more fitting to a world where the sun circles the flat earth. This continuous 1500-year-old rigidity is now part of the Muslim psyche. This blind irrationality is now so deeply entrenched into most Muslims that murderers like Osama and the Talibans find support among the educated Muslims.

Having said all that, I do not consider myself anything but a Muslim. I carry a Muslim name and live in a Pakistani-Muslim (sorry for the hyphenation, but a Pakistani Muslim is not the same as an Arab Muslim) culture. However, I follow a set of values that I have defined for myself, a value-set that is independent of any religion. Neither my Muslim identity nor my value-set is threatened by the other. I`m perfectly content being a hypocrite. I would be the same person as I am now regardless of the religion I would have been born to.

What the Islamic civilization needs is a renaissance not unlike that of the Christian Europe. That is a tall order. Maybe there are enough enlightened people like you and hamidm around who are the seeds of such revolution. I honestly think that Chowk maybe the first, although a small, step in that direction. Let`s hope for Islam`s--and more importantly, peace and hence a better world--sake that I`m right.

Godot # 173

``For many reasons going way back into Islamic history, Islam got stuck in the quagmire of narrow interpretation of the Book and saying of the Prophet (one always wonders about the authenticity of all those sayings,) interpreted, to this day, to serve personal and political goals.``

The Sahih Bukhari was compiled nearly 200 years

after the prophet`s death and the main source is

one Abu Huraira,who was dismissed by Omar al Khattab from governorship of Bahrain for stealing

state funds.Intrestingly,Bukhari the compiler of

the ahadeeth was a persian whose knowledge of

arabic was not upto the mark as is evident from

quite a few of his tafaseer on various verses of

the Quran.Ironically,such people and their compositions have attained almost divine power over the muslims.

Regards

Re: Godot

Islam was the world`s leader in science in the Middle Ages. This article explains what could have gone wrong:

``How Islam Won, and Lost, the Lead in Science``

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/30/science/social/30ISLA.html?searchpv=nytToday

Hobbyty, if you are reading this, remember the above article (that is full of praise for Islam`s scientific achievements) is from NYT, which you recently ridculed as `NYT is expressing Hindu nationalist and zionist agreement` on `A Decision to Regret` board (#280)

re: Faruk

``We have one of the most ambitious though largely unrealized plans to help the weaker sections of our society.``

Not merely that, we as a society, Hindus and Muslims together, have undertaken probably the most ambitious human project ever - creating a large, modern, tolerant society from the debris of historical enmities and hatreds, employing the human raw material that continues to be as imperfect as ever, in a resource-deficient environment.

I have no doubt Farzana shares that ideal and that vision. Given that confidence, I appreciate the fact that she shows to us how very far we remain from that ideal. Of course, people like you, Faruk, give us the hope that our cause is worthy.

My friends, Hindus and Muslims, people of every religion, every caste, or every other such distinctions, we know our challenge is not an easy one. We know that our resources are meagre. We know that forces from every direction tug at us, and that fears of every kind haunt us. But since our vision is worthy, since it points us to a virtuous future rather than to a virtuous past, let us not lose sight of it. True, the pace of our progress some times frustrates us. But we, all of us together, must keep inching along in the right direction.

Farzana,

The current issue of the Outlook carries an excellent article describing what Saba Bhaumik calls the ``curious conundrum`` faced by many Indian Muslims today. Would it right to say that she has articulated some of the frustration you have expressed?

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&fodname=20011105&sid=1

A Halloween Joke Pakistani Shtyle

scout auntie # 70 from another board.

[``by the way, what is a Muslim girl to do when she encounters a cute guy? desire inducing hormones are God`s gift to men and women. no one`s invincible from feelings.....like women wearing plunging necklines, some men wear tight shirts clearly showing their perfect pecs and abs....what do we do then?``]

Top 5 things a muslim girl can do when confronted with fierce desires induced by her raging harmones:

- accept the first ``rishta`` that comes thereafter, if she is not already married.

- check yellow pages for milkmen who provide home delivery services.

- write to the local postmaster to assign a cute postman to her route.

- visit www.heavenlytoys.com/muslima-specials

- wait for her 72 ghilamas in jannah

- drop me an email at ali1@footlongclub.com

Re: semipreciousme

{{“But if you insist that I submit something, would you be kind enough to take over my pretzel stand for two days? That will give me the time to write an article for Chowk.”

…..tsk…tsk….no lame-o excuses, please ….}}

It`s in your best interest not to encourage me to write an article. Trust me. I think my posts are enough for most Chowkies.

Re Faruk # 167

``I think we have come a long way from the times of the untouchables, the Hindu chai wala and Muslim chai wala of pre independence India. We have a long way to go but at the same time we have achieved a lot. We have one of the most ambitious though largely unrealized plans to help the weaker sections of our society.``

Well said my friend, and as long as there are Indians who think like you, the future is bound to be promising.

-

Subroto

Editorial & Analysis by Mushirul Hasan

Indian Express, Wednesday, October 31, 2001

Shahi Imam, you’ve got mail

The prayer call behoves you, not politics and jihad



Dear Imam Sahib,

As-salam-o-Alaikum:

YOU occupy an exalted position as the custodian of Dilli’s Jama masjid. You are the prayer leader, the moral guide of the thousands who pray at the great masjid. The faithful expect you to interpret the Holy Koran and the traditions of our great Prophet and not to make political pronouncements. The sweet sound of the Azano (prayer call) from the minaret, rather than the call for jihad from the pulpit, is what they want to hear.

Scores of mosques, shrines and traditional schools dot our landscape. Yet, we do not hear fatwa emanating from, say the Fatehpuri mosque, situated so close to where you hold court. Similarly, we observe piety on its knees at the sacred shrines in Nizamuddin and Mehrauli, and not politicians lining up to pay homage to their sajjada-nashin (object of salutation). These long-standing institutions command allegiance, and yet they are not susceptible to political influences. Please follow their example, eschew politics, and avoid turning our great masjid into a political akhara. You will then find many more faithful being drawn to you and the mosque. Piety, devotion and humanity are the essence of the Islamic faith.

There is no Pope, priest or bishop in Islam. Islam also does not recognise any form of social and religious hierarchy. Ek hi saf me khare ho gaye Mahmud-o-Ayaz (the King and the slave pray together), said the poet Iqbal. Doubtless, you have inherited a position, and, for this reason, you occupy a vantage point in the lanes and by-lanes of old Dilli. But, surely, this does not give you the right to be the sole spokesman of 120 million Indian Muslims. Do the Shias accept your verdict? Do the Barelwis follow your diktat? Do the Muslim farmers in Assam or the fishermen on the Kerala coast know you? No, they don’t. Can you deliver votes for any political party from the Mallapuram district? No Imam Sahib, you can’t.

If so, how does anybody conclude that you represent the authentic voice of Islam in India? Somebody must answer. My explanation is this: our political classes repeat the mistakes made in the past. By negotiating with priests and politicians whose organisational base and political stature are by no means assured, they perpetuate their legitimacy as spokespersons of the whole community. Rather than forcing them into a situation where they are required to demonstrate their implied support, they refuse to draw out the conditions for such a confrontation. In the process, the weight of orthodoxy stifles the liberal voices among Muslims. This was exemplified by the Shah Bano affair, and by my own personal experience at the Jamia Millia Islamia. In the event, the conservative Muslim establishment, backed by the non-left formations, tasted the fruits of ‘victory’.

Let me turn to the relentless US bombing of Afghanistan. First, silence should not be construed as acquiescence in violence against the civilian population. Second, you should draw comfort from the strong body of opinion in this country spearheaded not by the Muslims but by vocal liberal-left groups that has lambasted American policies in Palestine and Iraq, and protested against the loss of civilian lives in Afghanistan. Instead, you raise the battle cry from the safety of the great mosque. Why? Some years ago, you committed a colossal blunder by asking Muslims to boycott the Republic Day celebrations. Now, your monumental folly is to call for jihad against the Anglo-Saxon world.

It is distasteful to talk of ‘holy’ wars in this day and age. What, if the sangh parivar declares dharmayug for ‘liberating’ their sacred sites? You and I will run for cover. The usage of expressions like kafir is equally unacceptable. Surely, the future of a great religion does not depend on taking recourse to such offensive categories. Surely, the Islamic personality of an individual can be developed and refined without conjuring up the false image of ‘unbelievers’ ready to strike at the faithful.

Imam Sahib, soothe rather than inflame passions. Develop a different vocabulary to convey the community’s fears and aspirations, and reject, once and for all, the binary opposition inherent in the idea of dar al-Islam (land of Islam) and dar al-harb (land of war). Have you heard of the call for hijrat (migration) to Afghanistan, the dar al-Islam, during the Khilafat movement in the early 1920s? It was an adventurist campaign with disastrous results. While the divines stayed put in their homes digging into the qorma and biryani, scores of their Muslim brethren died of hunger and cold during their trek through the rugged mountains. Their Afghan hosts put them in jail before sending them back to India.

An ideal world envisioned by the scriptures is out of our reach. And yet let’s create a better world for ourselves by popularising the idea of a dar al-aman (land of peace). Let Islam flourish along with other religious creeds. For us, the Muslim intelligentsia, the real challenge is to move beyond the somewhat simplistic approach of deploring and denouncing the West. In the present-day worldwide context, let us be vigilantly self-critical and aware of our historical and political situatedness. Let us challenge many obsolete ideas and concepts that impede progress and espouse the cause of democracy, human rights, empowerment of women, and equal rights to the minorities. If we shirk our responsibility, you and I will become unwitting collaborators in Islamist ideologies whose costs to Muslim societies have been no less brutal than those of colonial domination.

Please do not stand in the way of those Muslims who wish to pursue without impediment the full development of their capacities and to contribute to their societies in all domains. I respectfully reiterate that we need to develop a variety of subtle analytical perspectives and positions in order to address problems afflicting Muslim societies: poverty, illiteracy, obscurantism, and the exploitation and social confinement of Muslim women. If public opinion is mobilised, it must be directed against feudal/monarchical regimes that seek legitimacy from Islam.

Admittedly, many of us, Hindus and Muslims alike, feel agitated over certain issues. So do you. When that happens, walk up to Maulana Azad’s mausoleum or the shrine of Sarmad, the Sufi martyr of Aurangzeb’s reign. Learn from them the values of liberal humanism and tolerance and pay heed to the following verse Azad quoted in his essay on Sarmad:

Zuhiri’s breast is full to the brim with the love of the beloved.

No place is left in my heart for hating my rivals.

Meanwhile let the cameras stop clicking, and let the tape-recorders be switched off at the Jama masjid. Khuda Hafiz

Dear Godot:

You write:

``The Friday Times must include PBUH everytime it mentions the Prophet; it just knows it too well that if it did not do that, its entire facility would be set to fire and the TFT would cease to exist. Now, what rational being would want to risk that?``(Godot)

Are you serious, Godot? – I didn’t know that tiresome abbreviation is a ``fire extinguisher`` for Muslim press?

It is hard to believe that our very secure prophet (who never claimed to be anything more than a human being and just a messenger) ever wanted to hear so much personal flattery or praise from his Ummah -- least of all -- in the ``insolently abbreviated`` form of it.

At times one is compelled to feel that we ARE not only CUBE worshippers -- we are also Mohammedans -- Mohammed Worshippers – despite YLH’s assertion (if I correctly remember it) to the contrary --- that we are Muslims -- NOT Mohammedans.

Re: Eklayva

``My friends, Hindus and Muslims, people of every religion, every caste, or every other such distinctions, we know our challenge is not an easy one. We know that our resources are meagre. We know that forces from every direction tug at us, and that fears of every kind haunt us. But since our vision is worthy, since it points us to a virtuous future rather than to a virtuous past, let us not lose sight of it. True, the pace of our progress some times frustrates us. But we, all of us together, must keep inching along in the right direction.``

Then we must all drink warm milk, eat Glucose biscuits, and hold hands around a tree to sing Kumbayah.

Dear Farzana,

I dont know wether you indeed are an Indian. Without commenting on your article, I have only one observation.

How the hell are you saying that in India we dont celebrate `republic day ie 26th Jan` or `Independence day ie 15th Aug`. We do celebrate these two events by congregating in the morning in the local park , hoisting the flag , singing the national anthem and eating sweets. There are eloborate programmes in schools, colleges a day before these two days. Where do you live???

Unless, of course your idea of celebrating is to go to the local disco or doing Bhangra.

The problem with majority of Muslims is that they wear Islam on their sleeves, for them an idiotic Osama is more important than loyalty to nation, for them justifying the evil deeds of terrorist is more important than doing some introspection. We had British born muslim Jehadis openly admitting on BBC that he will kill British Army troops!!! and yet Muslims ask for compassion , restraint and end to racism!!!!! the fact that Muslims are percieved as untrustworthy, treacherous etc etc is not without reason.

There is a tradition in ( British Indian Army which is still strong in Indian and Pakistan Army) where Artillery offices dont remove one of the belts while dining. The origin of this tradition is from an event when Afghans called the soldiers of British Indian army for dinner and while the soldiers were busy eating where attacked by their hosts. So now the belts with sidearms are not removed while dining. ofcourse there are no sidearms now but the tradition of wearing belt ( ie being always prepared) still carries on.

tahmed321 #126:

[pakiessei #98 ``We, the christians of Pakistan, fully condemn the terrorist attack carried out against our brethren, and we hold India responsible for this heinous attack.``]

``Unless you have proof, you are jumping to conclusions....

``Just holding India responsible isnt going to do it.``

I find it amusing that people on the one hand are quick to blame India (without evidence) for what happens in Pakistan, but on the other hand demand cast-iron evidence regarding Osama Bin Laden`s involvement with the WTC attacks.

Not exactly related to this piece (of which I have to admit I also miss the point - {yes, yes, the liberals can be hypocirtical idiots - but compared to most `conservatives, they`r still angels}... and Mahesh`s questions are totally relevant, IMO, though not satisfactorily answered)

But where was I ?? Ah yess.. this piece from tehelka...

Among the believers

Some say that the antidote to religious terrorism lies in addressing the ``real`` causes - poverty, backwardness and weak political structures. In the final sum, the argument holds that a healthy economy and a secular polity will signal a corresponding decline in the emphasis placed on religion. However, as the case of the US shows, although democracy and economic advancement lead to a fall in religious believers initially, they also lead to a return of religion, sometimes in a more aggressive, virulent and conservative form, argues Palash Krishna Mehrotra

read at: http://www.tehelka.com/channels/commentary/2001/oct/25/com102501palash1.htm

Fundamentally, the `moderate Muslim` is as much to blame perhaps as the `fundamentalist`. Going back to the old Burkean dictum, these `good` men did nothing while the bad guys slowly and surely poisoned entire societies, generations, and institutions with their hate filled sermonising. Paradoxically, most Muslim countries, certainly Pakistan, Iran, and even Egypt were more `modern` intellectually in the 1950s than they are today. Two pence rascals like Samiul Haque and Ali Khamenei would have been hounded out of any decent social gathering. But then came the middle class guilt of being too ``western` or something. Mind you it was this middle class that sent its kids to US/UK, wore Western clothes, and tuned into BEatles. To assuage their middle age crises they let the rascals interpret and then slowly enforce their religion for them. And now they bemoan the `hijacking` of their faith. One cannot have much sympathy for them.

Au contraire, they should have learn from the Ataturk, Rahmatullah Alaihi, who put the bad guys in their place and Turkey in her place: light years apart.

We have come to a point that homeopathy of `moderation` to counter radicalism may be too late. Islamist obscurantism needs strong antibiotics. Even Pakistan, Bangladesh, and India (between them half the world`s Muslims) applying existing sedition and riot laws against the ulema instigators may work wonders.

I for one am far willing to have a Bangladesh without Islam than the other way round.

re. hamidm, george carlin and moderate religionists...

Ok, I can understand urstruly`s POV. After all, the Quran is the self referencing complete Word of God. Who needs half measures and `moderation` when you have the absolute truth! (-- And despite the many admonitions to moderation IN the book itself, there is no dearth of what we`d today consider pretty extremist either.)

BUT...

Perhaps Mr hamidm, Carlin Himself or Gabriel would be kind enough to explain by what such reasoning Christianity and Judaism (NOT Christendom and Jewry, btw) might be inimical to moderate treatment, or are inherently absolutist/ fundamentalist.

For extra credit, defend the ``Religions cannot be Moderate`` theory against Hinduism and Buddhism.

Otherwise, all these generalizations robs arguments not only of intellectual credibility but humor as well :(

rgds,

PM

re: dost-mittar

``Leaving aside the contentious issue of to what extent the conversions (in the subcontinent) were a change of heart and to what extent they were due to various incentives and disincentives,``

I think we exchanged a couple of posts on this topic before - Just wanted to add a few words on the spread of Islam which according to some was purely on the basis of sword or reward, etc.

1. There was no invading army sent into south east asia (malaysia & indonesia). Indonesia is the most populous muslim country in the world.

2. Mongols and other Turkic tribes almost wiped out the Islamic/Arab civilization but after conquerering the Muslims they themselves converted to Islam (these guys sure as hell were neither afraid nor needed any incentives) - Two of their clans are especially illustrious - The Usmani Turks and the Chagatai Turks (aka Mughals) - Babar by the way, used to rule the area north of Afghanistan and was pushed out of that region by one of his cousin, Uzbek Khan, into Afghanistan. His kingdom/khandom in the north lost, he decided to turn east.

``I would suggest that most people at the time of conversion thought that conversion merely meant belief in one God and His Prophet, the rest of the baggage coming later.``

I am not sure what people thought at that time - but I think, although religion eventually becomes part of a culture it cannot be allowed to dominate the culture and this whole idea of ``Islam being a complete way of life`` is total nonsense. The rest of the baggage as you put it, has been invented by a bunch of morons and they are welcome to practise it in Kandahar.

``The whole aspect of Islam and culture has become very topical. It would be useful if you could find the time to write a critique of Naipaul`s work on Chowk.``

V. S. Naipaul in my opinion is quite mediocre and I was surprised that they gave him the Nobel Prize. His younger brother Shiva, would have been a better choice, although I don`t think he has written that much.

Regards.

Hello peoples.

Here is a random prediction.

US will keep saying that they will bomb through Ramzan.

Musharraf will keep telling them not to - perhaps at the last minute he will give them a ``final warning``, threatening to withdraw Pakistan`s support for the war.

The US will then back down with much muttering and complaining.

The war will not be much affected by this cessation of bombing for a month.

Musharraf will be much strengthened domestically.

The US and Musharraf will live happily ever after (don`t ask me about the Afghans post Ramzan) - er, until the pesky subject of Kashmir comes up.

Does this sound likely, or a paranoid chomsky type fantasy, or both?

Zafar

Ali1 #169:

[another problem with good muslims is that they have their shaving priorities all wrong.... upside down, literally.]

This is only true for good muslim men. For good muslim women, it would be something like:

[another problem with good muslims is that they have their shaving priorities all wrong.... downside up, literally.]

Please, please, in the name of father, the son and the holy ghost, please shave your legs and not........

For those who deserved an earlier response, I am sorry about this delay. Since most of the points raised are similar, I shall attempt to answer them as issues in a couple of posts.

My ‘manifesto’ and jihad:

I did make it clear that I firmly believe in the Indian Constitution. Why did I make those demands? That itself is revealing – one has to, because one belongs to a certain community protected by the law, and yet cannot take many things for granted. Which is why I put that cat among the pigeons.

I said: ``If we want to declare a jihad, we can.`` One of the responses I got was: “NO Ms Versey -- ``we`` CANNOT -- not here in USA -- nor in INDIA. For that ``we`` have every ``right`` to be slapped, kicked, handcuffed, jailed AND -- even bombed.”

Thanks for reiterating all this. May I remind you that for many Indian Muslims, there is no need to declare a jihad – there is something called TADA, which gives the powers-that-be a carte blanche to do all these wonderful things. Or you can be mistaken for an Afghan and left to die in the hospital premises. Or even though the government does not have enough information about Abu Salem to have him extradited, as an Indian Muslim you are supposed to ‘know’.

dost-mittar (#65):

[All these rights are already there, except ``If we want to declare a jihad, we can.`` Now, by Jehad if you are talking about a non-violent jehad, you have that right too (let`s start with one against religious bigotry and police brutality...). But if you mean a violent jehad,

that would be a criminal act under the law and would/should be dealt with accordingly; or maybe you meant something else?]

One reason I added it there was the almost cavalier fashion in which the term was being bandied about. Regarding non-violent jihad, I would call it infinite justice :) And yes, against the things you mention, like bigotry, brutality. I am not for a violent jihad by Indian Muslims at all (except for my views on insurgency movements in my country, that are out in the open for all to see). Besides, while everyone is concentrating on the demands, it is unfair to ignore the bottomline where I stated clearly: “But whatever we do, it must be with the knowledge that while our acts may not be condemnable; they need not be condoned by others.”

MaheshG (#115):

I had written to you: “You want to know if you can, as a Hindu, wage jihad against Muslims, ask for Muslim obeisance… NO. Because the issues are not connected. I am specifically talking about Indian Muslims, right? So, they (a fringe group, which I have emphasized has no popular clout) have not asked for a jihad against Hindus; not now and not in 1993. And, on what grounds would you expect Muslim obeisance?”

Your response: “I never said jehad against Indian Muslims, did I? ANd there is no law calling for Muslim obeisance. Hindus can not demand it. And that is precisely my point. You can`t ask for rights that are exclusive to Muslims. Muslims should conform to the same laws that everybody else is.”

It would be interesting to know who Hindus would wage a jihad against (if at all) if not Indian Muslims. In Islam, they cry out everytime they see an infidel. They see it as a part of their religion. None of those ‘rights’ are exclusive to Muslims. I mean, Hindus too can wear a bindi, grow beards etc. Muslims do conform to the laws – in fact there are specific ones enacted for ‘bad Muslims’.

[I don`t believe what you are saying here. Babri Masjid was pulled down citing Hindu sentiment and you are telling me you won`t ask your Hindu friends whether that is really the sentiment or not? Maybe not you personally but others would.]

Except for Dawood Ibrahim and his cohorts (whose form of asking was to bomb parts of the city), I am telling you in all sincerity that Hindus were not questioned. It is not inherent Muslim gentleness, of course – perhaps minority fears prevented it. And this was the case even in the worst-affected areas. The establishment and its movers and shakers were blamed, mostly in whispers, but there were heart-warming stories about the kindness of friends from the other community. I cannot deny that with time and the wonderful jugalbandi of ‘extremist-liberal’ intervention, the suspicions have crept into their minds. But it is more in the minds of those living in skyscrapers.

[And it is only the liberals that I pose these questions to. Because it is important to know what they think of people who claim to follow their own religion and indulge in these heinous acts. It is important because it is in the hands of the liberal to rescue their religion

from the hands of the terrorists.]

Liberals live on an island. They always have more questions than answers. And why must a religion be questioned even if terrorists commit their acts under its guise? Have you not seen liberals like Yaseen Malik join the ranks of militants? He is not a child who was brainwashed. In Kashmir many of the militants have got married to women who are doctors, engineers, professors. So, what gives here? I have been talking about the double-speak of liberals who cannot decide and therefore keep their options open. (I am certainly not talking about the Chowkies you mentioned.)

I don’t mean to bait you, but since you ask me questions and you do not think I am a liberal, under what category would you place me? Yes, I am aware you have not called me a Pakistani, but when others have you have not jumped in to defend me either.

Sadna (#117):

[But I think its not uncommon to come across NR Muslims, not necessarily from India, who hold this general belief, mostly in a benign impersonal way, that all the world will eventually be converted to Islam including America, Europe and India. They seem to regard this as an inevitable consequence of the existence of Islam.

So my question is, what is your own opinion about this, esp with respect to Indians of nonMuslim faith? Is such a belief an inseparable part of every ``religious`` Muslim`s belief, do you think? Do `fundamental rights to religious freedom` for Muslims in India need to allow public manifestations of this internal belief (in the eventual triumph of Islam), for Muslims to feel truly free to follow their religion? If nonMuslim Indians donot accept in principle that all nonMuslims Indians are inevitably headed for Islam, is this a curtailment of Indian Muslims religious freedoms?]

Yes, NR Muslims possibly do suffer from this belief, but it is less benign and impersonal than you think. I suppose having been co-opted into a ‘conglomerate’, they yearn for a brotherhood, and they believe that Islam will provide that. (Christianity uses the more subtle form of charity as intellectual of not real conversion.)

Re. my opinion, I certainly am not looking for an Islamic utopia (if there is one) for India. Most Indian Muslims are extremely aware about Hinduism, though as always happens, cultural clashes are sometimes inevitable. By ‘Religious’ Muslims in India if you mean those who believe in the tenets of Islam and practise them in their lives, then they would not want to be Hinduized in any manner that is antithetical to their religion or understanding of it. But there is a segment that is ‘super-religious’, and they are the equivalent of the Bajrang Dal etc. But being a minority community they do not see any hope of India turning into an Islamic nation. (And they do not want to go to Pakistan either. I wonder what message that gives us.)

The ‘triumph of Islam’ is a pipe dream at best. I think every society assumes they are on the verge of a renaissance when they are threatened OR they acquire clout. Islam is currently in both these positions, depending on where you are and what you are thinking. Being a monotheistic religion that holds the Book as the final word, there is bound to be curtailment of those of non-Islamic faiths that flout those norms. Islam as some believers tell us is a religion of tolerance, but it is also a stringent belief system following a linear path. To use a metaphor, it is like a highway; you have to follow a certain speed; no jaywalking and stay beyond those fences.

But I am not the best representative of good or bad Muslims.

-----

Some other questions will be dealt with in a subsequent post.

Regards,

Farzana

Godot #173: That was very well said, right from the heart. However, I am not the right person to pin even a tiny hope for reformation of Islam. I gave up all hope because of insurmountable barriers and moreover, I started liking other philosophies than Islamic or Judeo-Christian-Islamic ones.

Other day, I read an article about Zen Buddhism in a local Indian weekly newpaper, titled ``Sit, Walk or Run but don`t Wobble``. The problem with Islam is that in order to moderate or reform it, you will have to wobble from the literal translation of holy book and other material-as different interpretations with selective picking, choosing and discarding. Why is it incumbent upon me to go through this trouble when I can live peacefully with myself, my neighbors, my surroundings and nature. I do not believe in man against satan, satan against god; man against nature, nature against man and man ashraf-ul-makhluqat. These are funny religions. The spirituality or being at peace with the self is lost in the clash of a variety of two extremes.

No Godot, I am not going to wobble in order to re-interpret something, I no longer believe in. Now with the advent of ramzan, how am I going to re-interpret it? Of course, I have no intention to fast. Although placing myself firmly out of it, I can not totally ignore the trends in Islam because all of my family members are believing muslims and it matters a lot to me. It would be hypocritical if I try to talk about reformong Islam while not only believing in it but prefering other religion (s) over it. Yes, I will support those responses in favor of reformation for the sake of people I care most, definitely not for myself.

Regards,

Sameer

eklavya:

``Now, where has this sense of humor been hidden all these days?!

Absolutely marvellous.``

erm..that was a most blatant cut n paste job.. no homegrown humor :(

tahmedsaab urstruly:

heehee.:)...i couldnt stop hooting with laughter myself

Eklavya #177,

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&fodname=20011105&sid=1

Then isn`t the stereotype true that Muslims identify themselves as Muslims first and Indians second?

If Muslims support bin Laden then clearly that`s being anti-national since bin Laden has an axe to grind with India.

According to this article, Indian Muslims seem like a confused set of people if you ask me.

The article asks why Muslims are stereotyped and then goes on to say that Muslims as a whole have a sneaking admiration for Osama bin Laden. What am I supposed to conclude? The Muslims ask why Hindus views aren`t being sought about the terrorist attack and at the same time believe in

the rumour about the 4000 jews not showing up for work on the day of the tragedy.

If this article is trying to show how Muslims are being put on spot then it does a very poor job of it. All it manages to do is reaffirm the feeling that Muslims don`t love India.

nasah,

actually, the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam was NOT just an ordinary human being but he was the Beloved of The Divine Lord and the Final Messenger of Allah. As Allah says, in His Qur`an:

Say (o my beloved): If you want to love Allah, then follow me (i.e. The Prophet).

Obey Allah and obey the Messenger!

Surely, (O beloved Muhammad) We have created you with a magnificent character!

From Allah there has come to you a Noor!

We have given you without measure!

etc etc etc

If one reads the Qur`an with the eyes of iman one will see that the Holy Prophet alayhisalatosalaam is most definitely NOT like an ordinary human being!

He is a human being ofcourse, but like a ruby amongst stones, as all Messengers of Allah were humans (as opposed to jinn or angels) but he was also created from the Noor of Allah! As he (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam)--may my mother and father be sacrificed for him-- said to the Sahaba in a famous hadith,

``Ayyukum mithlee?`` Which one of you is like me?!

Meaning ke none of you is like me! Subhan Allah!

In another hadith qudsi Allah says about His Beloved:

``Lawlaka, lawlaka, maa khalaqtu`l aflaka!``

But for thee, but for thee, I(O Beloved) I would not have created the heavens! (ie. creation)

In another hadith:

O Abu Bakr (radhi Allah anhu) NO ONE know my true self EXCEPT My Lord!

And another point, a very important one, related to the issue of saying ``sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam`` when hearing Allah`s Messenger`s name:

We are told to by Allah in the Qu`ran:

In Allaha wa Malaaikatahu yu salluna ala` an-Nabi!

Ya Ayyuhalla zeena aaminu sallu alayhi wa sallimu tasleema!

Verily, Allah and His Angels send blessings [salawaat] upon The Prophet! O you who believe! send salawaat [durood] and salaams upon him!(Al Ahzab)

Hazrat Anas (radi Allahu anhu) narrates that Sayyiduna Rasoolullah (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said: ``He who reads a single Durood upon me, Almighty Allah blesses him ten times, ten of his sins are forgiven, and he is increased ten times in stages (internally). (Mishkaat al Masaabih)

interesting article...(esp. for nasah, sigalph etc.)

from http://www.albalagh.net/prophethood/durood.shtml

* * * * * * * * * *

Sall-Allahu Alayhi Wa Sallam

By Khalid Baig

They were circumambulating the Ka`ba, when Ka`ab bin Ujrah asked Abdul Rahman ibn Abi Lailah: ``Shall I not give you a precious gift?`` A gift in the middle of that act of intense devotion? Abdul Rahman was a prominent tabayi, i.e. from the generation that came after the generation of the companions. Ka`ab, may Allah be pleased with him, was one of the 1400 Companions who were part of the Covenant of al Ridwan, a covenant to live or fall together to avenge the blood of Uthman bin Affan, Radi-Allahu anhu, who had been feared to have been murdered by the Quraish. To know this background is to get a clue to the special gift.

While Muslims were stationed at Hudaybiyah, where the covenant took place, many delegations of Quraish had visited them. Among them was Urwah ibn Mas`ud al Thaqafi. It was he who reported the extra-ordinary relationship of the companions with the Prophet, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam : ``I have seen Caesar and Chosroes in their pomp, but never have I seen a man honored as Muhammad is honored by his comrades.``

The gift that Ka`ab gave to ibn Abi Lailah was the hadith that gives us the salawat (benediction) that we use in regular prayers. The companions asked the proper way of sending the blessings, when the verse requiring them to do so was revealed.



``Lo Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation.`` [Al-Ahzab, 33:56].

Then the Prophet, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam , taught them the exact words, as they themselves were revealed to him by Allah.

A prophet of God is a unique person. He acts as the link between the people and their Creator. He is a human being, yet he speaks for God. The most difficult task for followers of a prophet has always been that of dealing with the prophet as a prophet. It is so easy to go to extremes. Make him divine, God-incarnate, Son of God. Or make him just another man, attributing all human weaknesses and sins to him. Religious literature of major religions in the world is testimony to these tendencies. It is a story of abject human failure in this matter.

One must contrast that with the beautiful and delicate balance presented by Islam. Here the Prophet is the perfect human being, but he is not Divine. He speaks for God but he is not God. He is the object of our gratitude, ardent love and devotion, unswerving allegiance, and deference. But he is not the object of our worship. We ask Allah to send His blessings on him which at once makes two very important statements. First, he needs Allah`s blessings. Second, we cannot bless him, only Allah can. It is not possible for those who always invoke Allah`s blessings for the Prophet, to degrade him to the level of other human beings, or to elevate him to the level of divinity. The benediction, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam , is a magic formula that fights both tendencies equally effectively. It also strikes at the roots of shirk, the tendency to associate partners with Allah. For we have met the perfect human being, the example to follow. And we found him to be a servant of Allah. Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam .

For centuries Muslims lovingly added the benediction, whenever they mentioned the name of the Prophet, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam . The hadith literature is a good example of this labor of love. For here the name of the Prophet, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam , is mentioned repeatedly. Yet the muhadithun never tired of writing the benediction. That was at a time when every book was written by hand, and all its copies were also made by hand. It was never considered a burden or an unnecessary interruption. A brief recent statement from a professor of hadith at one Islamic religious school captures the spirit. ``The merits of studying hadith are innumerable and those interested can read Ibn Abdul Bar`s book on the subject,`` he said. ``But it is sufficient to note that through this study we get plenty of opportunities for saying the benediction, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam .``

And so for centuries this practice has continued unabated throughout the Muslim world. Also, realizing the importance of a ``worthy benediction`` Muslims always used the Arabic expression in other languages, be they Urdu, Farsi, Bangla, or others. For the first time in history, we find a break from this practice, and this spirit, when reviewing the Islamic literature in English.

Initially some one substituted ``peace be upon him`` for ``Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam .`` But it is not even a proper translation. Then some one thought of abbreviating it to pbuh. It, of course, did not improve the translation or the readability. Others came up with innovations of their own. One Islamic text book in English notes in the beginning: ``After using the name of the Prophet Muhammad, Muslims should write or say the honorific phrase, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam ...Due to limited space this honorific phrase has been omitted.. but should be inserted when reading the book.`` Another book goes a little further by acknowledging the ``long established and cherished tradition``, but then announces bluntly: ``To avoid interrupting the flow of ideas, especially for non-Muslim readers, I have not followed the customary practice.`` A majority of recent Islamic books published in the U.S. and U.K. by reputable Muslim organizations, though, do not feel the need for any excuse or explanation, whatsoever. They simply mention the Prophet, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam , as they would any ordinary person.

It is time we moved beyond our hesitations, confusions, or inferiority complexes. This is the Ummah of the Last Prophet. In every language of the world, our Prophet is Muhammad, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam .

* * * * * * * * *

May Allah give us all the true ishq of Allah`s Beloved Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam.

ameen.

Far-zany

Gosh. Given your commitment to deeper insights, can you give us a mini bio? Something very short and hard hitting, like... your relationship with your father.

ali1 #179,

Top 5 Things a Pakistani Male Pervert should do to curb his desire to post perverted interacts to females:



-get a life

-get a life

-get a life

-get a life

-get neutered in the most violent manner by a local female veterinarian

Do me a favor, speak when you`re spoken to and keep your thoughts to yourself.

Hello Farzana,

Great... great article.... Being an Indian, I feel, whatever you said, demonstrates that we belong to a great and secular country, where independence is everyone`s right. There may be some masala people in our country who always try to be in limelight and give a wrong picture of Indian culture and society. But, at the core, in majority, People`s are like me and you and that`s what defines INDIA and an INDIAN. For me.. being a hindu has equal importance as being an Indian.

Isn`t it great that inspite of large populations of many languages, many religion, different culture... we are united. It`s unique on earth and I`m sure.. It will always be...

Satyam Dwivedi

Fierce Anna

Never mind about the bio. ``My Feudal Lord`` has already been done.

A message from Salman Ahmad of Junoon:

Please donate to the Afghan Refugee Fund, a way Pakistanis around the world can help these poor people out.

UNITED FOR PEACE FUND

muslim commercial bank,

zamzama branch 1443

karachi,pakistan

US$ account # 105-1

The swift code(routing number for the mcb branch)

is: MUCBPKKAA

intermediate bank: CITIBANK N.A.

111,wall street,new york 10043 usa

1096-0607 USD

swift code CITIUS33

apology for my last post--it ws meant to be addressed to nasah and godot NOT sigalph miyaan to whom i apologise!

* * * * * * *

right. the following piece of information from me is just well-meant advice from me to all Muslims on this forum. All I am doing is conveying the traditional, orthodox, Sunni (and I believe Shia too) view about * *calling * * the Prophet alayhisalatosalaam as ``bashar``.

It is our orthodox aqeedah [belief] that Huzoor Paak, the Beloved Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam *IS * a human being [bashar] but that to CALL HIM or ADDRESS HIM with this term, ``bashar`` (on its own without adding a qualifying honorific such as ``sayyid ul bashar`` [master of humans] or ``khayr ul bashar`` [best of humans]) is HARAAM and * *if it is done with the intention of belittling the Messenger of Allah (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) then it is KUFR.

That is the orthodox aqeedah, you can act according to it or not. We have ample proofs to back up our position too from the Qur`an, Sunnah, hadith and sayings and writings of our pious predecessors. I am merely relaying information. i am not accusing any Muslim of being a kaafir!

to summarise, ``bashar HONA aur cheez hai, bashar KEHNAA aur cheez hai.``

please notice the subtle difference.

The UK Muslim organizations have forgotten what the Sikhs did to the National Front in the 80s

The British police on Wednesday said they had arrested two persons following an attack on a young Sikh by a gang of Muslims carrying hammers and crowbars in Derby.

Harjit Singh Sandhu, 22, was in hospital with a broken leg, ankle and nose and cuts to his face and head after being attacked in the Normanton area of the county on Monday, the police said.

About 50 Sikhs took to the streets to protest increasing assaults by Muslim youths, but were dispersed by the police.

The police said, ``Community leaders were doing everything they can. Two men have been arrested and were being questioned about the assault on Sandhu.``

Last fortnight, 15-year-old Radhika Shukla suffered a fractured skull when a Muslim gang rampaged through her school, attacking pupils and staff with hammers and axes and smashing windows.

A group called the Youth Muslims Organisation was seen stirring trouble and gangs had been spotted roaming the streets chanting Osama bin Laden`s name since the September 11 attack on the United States.

Harninder Singh, a close friend of Sandhu, said: ``It was a totally unprovoked attack. He ran into a few Muslim shops for help and received none.``

``When they had finished he was absolutely covered in blood. I was with him last Wednesday when some Muslim lads mounted the pavement and tried to run him over.``

As appeals went out for calm, Gurmel Bolla, the vice-president of the Sikh temple in Derby, said community leaders were trying to keep a lid on the simmering violence, but were struggling.

Ref shrunken-brain #: 151

[When hindu/muslim bigots join hands to deride me, it warms the cockles of my heart.]

Any person with a reasonable amount of analytic thinking can see what kind of faker you are.

Re: nasah, #182

That is one of ``the`` problems with Islam: divinity of Mohammad. Mohammad declared time and again that he was just a human being, capable of normal human emotions and desires. It was his greatness that he forbade picture drawings of human beings, knowing well that his followers will draw his pictures and will start worshiping his picture and him the human. Idol worshipping he did not want. Alas, he did not succeed. His followers did not heed his advice, found other ways to worship him, and he is worshipped as if he was/is divinity itself. Most Muslims, it seems, cannot tell a difference between what is Divine and Spiritual vs what is human and profane. Him and the Quran are perfect examples that the messenger and the ink-on-paper are more important than the message itself. Herein lies most of the problem with Islam.

Not only TFT, but all newspapers in Pakistan, or in fact any writing that mentions the Prophet carries PBUH next to Mohammad`s name. I can say this with quite certainty that not all Muslim writers care about the PBUH, but try mentioning the Prophet as just Mohammad in Pakistan and see what happens!

Re: Banjaara, # 174

Thank you, Banjaara. You prove my point. I once asked a friend of mine, a practicing but an open minded Muslim, about the authenticity of a hadees he quoted. In response, he started to tell me how many hundreds and thousands of hadees there were that we, the Muslims, needed to follow, hadees that were examples set by the Prophet. When I insisted that ``how does he know if those hadees are true and that the Prophet actually said/did all that,`` he looked at me as if I uttered blasphemy, but he could not hide his embarrassment for he had no answer to my question.

MissFit #176 That was funny (probably more so in the original than as faithfully copied by you and thereby reduced from good humor to the usual angry hindutva ``hate-humor``). You forgot the punch line, incidentally: There was this third Paki behind them twisting the ear of a female impersonator, who said: ``I am here with DissMissFit``

hamidm #426: Why doesn`t Abdul follow basketball, and support Hakeem Aloujowan. The guy fasts while playing in the playoffs. What about Kareem Abdul Jabbar? He didn`t do too bad.

Why not follow boxing? Muhammad Ali is the flavor of the month, all of a sudden. He was first put in jail, and is then asked to light the flame at the Olympics. Maybe the same thing will happen with Abdul.

But, the people in trouble in the USA will not be the Adbuls. Abduls have a clear direction in life. They don`t care whether they are on the US social security system, or getting zakat money in Pakistan. They want to destroy Israel, and anyone who supports Israel`s policies (which are actually more out of touch with US values, then even the ideas Abdul proposes; but for some strange reason, Yitzak, who looks even more odd than Abdul, with his round black hat and curly hair, is considered normal). The Abduls have already decided to take on the US, and are ready for the countereffects.

The real problem will be faced by the watered- down Abduls, i.e. the Muslims in the US who want to distance themselves from the Abduls (for all the right reasons), but may have ended up in no-man`s land. To the goras, they will always be Muslims, regardless of how many Red Wing games they attend. And to the Abduls, they will always be the, ``Munafiqeens.``

The US is one terrorist attack away from launching a legal assault against Muslims. Just like most societies, there was tolerance in the US society for one major attack, which has occured. If (or when, as the CIA has suggested that it is bound to happen) the next one occurs, it will result in a John Ashcroft vs. Abdul confrontation. Abdul is ready for the fight. But to John Ashcroft, all Muslims will be Abdul, even the ones who drink cold Buds at hockey games, and go out of their way to shave twice everyday to avoid the terrible beard.

What will happen to these Abdul-avoiding Muslims, after the next terrorist attack? If their skin color isn`t as pink as Ashcroft`s, they will get trampled from both directions. This group needs to be ready for such a situation. Either they need to be ready to change their religion, or they need to go easy on Abdul, and realize that when Ashcroft is on the move, the Abdul`s maybe the only group ready to stand up for them.

Farzana, obviously you did not want to address me, but addressed my post. Does not really matter. I don`t think any Indians in Chowk has any doubt about the ground reality in India, especially about the Hindu-Muslim relationship, and many of us know (even if they do not agree) that the problems exist. But my point has been always with your articles, what are you as a media person trying to do to remediate those problems? Do you not also play a part in mutual trust building? Do you think by just pointing out the problems that too in a non-functional forum like Chowk, you become a great activist? My friend, you are wrong there. Of course you will always be what you want to be, thus you can never be Zafar or Faruk at least to some of us. You chose to be part of the problems, but not the solution as you want.

I do not know who are those Hindus that you talk about, but if you trust me, all my relatives have water, korma, biriyani,kebab,Ruh-afza, (but no vegetables!!, I don`t think you can cook vegetable, last time I ate in a muslim friend`s house, she put ground meat in Okra) from any muslims. When we go to an Indian restaurant, we never ask whether the food was made by a Hindu cook. I am 40+ old (if experience counts), have never seen any Hindu friends doing that. I really do not know whether you are talking about urban Hindus or villagers (I do not have any clue about the villages). Hope the villages also have come long way as well, especially when movies, serials are showing so much of Hindu-Muslim Bhai-Bhai themes.

Do you really know why the builder`s plan was withdrawn? Do not try to speculate.

When I mentioned about Shabana, I never even thought that we (you, Shabana and me) all happen to be women. So, do not try to read between the lines. See, to me and many other Indians, Shabana is just a fine and gifted human being. It did not occur to me until recently that she has a religion!!!

What Faruk says is correct, we have come a long way with our heavy baggage, and have a long way to go. My only complaint or plea to you that use your writing power/skill not to create any more divison, but to cement the divison. Next time send an article in Chowk focusing at least one of your positive experiences in India. I am sure you may have one in your 20-30+ life there.

By the way, I have not twisted any posts of anybody in chowk. I am not a good twister if you happen to recognize.

Farzana, you probably have read it, but if not then, please read it.

http://www.indian-express.com/ie20011031/ed3.html

[India has remained reticent about making a common cause with Pakistan on the question of supporting the international campaign against terrorism.] from Yawn opinion

HA HA HA HA

Make common cause with a thief to safeguard property?

Ref Ali1 #: 179

[- drop me an email at ali1@footlongclub.com]

Last time it was rape fantasy. Now you are trolling for women on Chowk. What is your problem?

Farzana #200

Thanks.
You say ``By ?Religious? Muslims in India if you mean those who believe in the tenets of Islam and practise them in their lives, then they would not want to be Hinduized in any manner that is antithetical to their religion or understanding of it.``

Let me paraphrase my question.
I was not asking whether Indian Muslims with strong religious beliefs are willing to be Hinduized. The Indian Constitution doesnot require this.

The Indian Constitution seems to say all religions are equal. My question was whether the the denial of any space for the concept of an eventual Islamic utopia, can be considered a significant curtailment of Indian Muslim`s religious freedoms.

Zafar #198
If Musharraf and the US live happily ever after, after a pause in bombing, well then, what better? It means the US Afghan objectives are being met without bombing, it means US Afghan objectives are being met without pissing off the Pakistani Army, it means Afghans get a months pause in bombing.

IMO, the US will not let Pakistan coopt its(the US`s) Afghan objectives. Everytime there is are petulant objections from Pak, here the media takes pause from anthrax and displays sudden enlightenment about things like NA`s long and brave struggle or ISIs near-and-far links to Al-Qaeda :).

The question remains however whether the US is clear what its Afghan objectives are.

Where is this Aadha Khatri Zafar now a days. His masters have again destroyed another mosque on 10/27/01 in the pretext of chasing the freedom fighters

Sadna # 160

uh okaaay.

Urstruly #220 #221
Not that I really want to know, but this issue you(and some others) have with Khatris is part of your local culture, Arabic culture or pure fundamental Islam?

Sadna # 223

uh okaay

farzana #152:

[...then there is a small error here: they did not refuse to meet the Indian government, our govt. refused to meet them...]

the indian govt appointed k.c. pant as its envoy to talk to kashmiri parties. all preconditions of `talks only within the parameters of indian constitution`, etc were dropped. shabir shah met with k.c. pant...the aphc refused to meet him.

Re: In my post where I asked MaheshG why he has never jumped to my defence when others call me a Pakistani, I forgot to add the smiley :) I like fighting my own battles, though occasionally I too could do with a truce.

Manoj (#189):

I will reserve comment on your statement, “the fact that Muslims are percieved as untrustworthy, treacherous etc etc is not without reason”, for I am sure you have deliberated before saying this.

You say, “How the hell are you saying that in India we don’t celebrate `republic day ie 26th Jan` or `Independence day ie 15th Aug`. We do celebrate these two events by congregating in the morning in the local park , hoisting the flag , singing the national anthem and eating sweets. There are eloborate programmes in schools, colleges a day before these two days. Where do you live???”

I am an Indian and live in India and please see the context in which I mentioned ‘celebrating’ Republic Day – we were not talking about flag-hoisting in schools or singing the national anthem. Ordinary citizens of no community go out of their way to do any of these things, forget exchanging sweets. Having said this, I do believe that it would be much better if these occasions were the real festivals in our country, rather than the religious ones.

Stuka (138):

Suna hai Sikhon mein is waqt bada daraar hai. There is one fellow claiming to be the direct descendent of Guru Gobind Singh. Aisa ki vadda hauda mile to kee gal ho…where does one send one’s application? And does one have to owe allegiance to Daler Mehndi? (yuck)

PS: I did not call you a feudal on the other Board; I said you would know a bit about it having been a frequent visitor to the DCG :) And their feudalism is reserved for army brats (ouch!)

Kiran (#157):

Thank god you came here – I had wanted to say shukria for your gesture on an earlier Board, but wahaan kuchch muamla gadbad ho rahaa tha…

[as you can well see, many egotistical men find it difficult to digest such notions. I love to see them simmer with anger and jealousy. More power to you!]

This is a digression but I have experienced that women writing on certain issues get a different reaction from men writing on the same things. Even the quality of the posts differ. And now one is also being told rather innocently that people are not even aware that we are women! And the woman who is being hailed as a shining example of Muslim womanhood – Christ, people now insist that they did not even realise she has a religion!! This is getting just too funny. Khair… here is a translation of one of Rumi’s verses, thought you might like it:

Mary`s Hiding

Before these possessions you love slip away, say what

Mary said when she was

surprised by Gabriel, I`ll hide inside God. Naked in

her room she saw a form

of beauty that could give her new life. Like the sun

coming up, or a rose as it

opens. She leaped, as her habit was, out of herself

into the divine presence.

There was fire in the channel of her breath. Light and

majesty came, I am smoke

from that fire and proof of its existence, more than

any external form.

I want to be where

your bare foot walks,

because maybe before you step,

you`ll look at the ground. I want that blessing.

Would you like to have revealed to you

the truth of the Friend?

Leave the rind,

and descend into the pith.

Fold within fold, the beloved

drowns in its own being. This world

is drenched with that drowning.

Imagining is like feeling around

in a dark lane, or washing

your eyes with blood.

You are the truth

from foot to brow. Now,

what else would you like to know?

------

Regards,

Farzana

Ref harimau #: 217

{Ref Ali1 #: 179

[- drop me an email at ali1@footlongclub.com]

Last time it was rape fantasy. Now you are trolling for women on Chowk. What is your problem?}

Oops. I forgot. You were the one who didn`t get a bite even in the gay bars.

re: PM # 191

The most conservative, the most reactionary, and the most violent ideas have almost ALWAYS been championed by men and women who were ``educated`` and had comfortable means of livelihood. Cultural, political, economic, and psychological arguments all suggest that this will always be the case.

Those who relate religious fundamentalism, violence, and intolerance primarily to ``poverty,`` ``lack of education,`` ``injustice,`` and other such things, unfortunately, refuse to acknowledge clear evidence to the contrary. In the process, these good people only weaken themselves.

In some ways, PM, we have an irony which, were it not so sad, would be amusing. Institutions are attacked most violently by people who are to an extent ``insiders.``

Were Freud alive today, he would have gone wild conjuring up sexual imageries to describe this geographically common and historically consistent behavioral phenomenon. Actually, I have one, but that one is not printable.

Chowk is not the only forum for me, but I have discovered that it is important. Especially the immediacy with which you know how people think and feel. If this place were “non-functional” then there would not have been so much energy expended on debating. I have never called myself an activist, forget a “great one”. I too would like to believe that all is well with the world, but I am not sitting in some foreign country watching TV serials to get my world-view. If everyone here knew about the ground realities, then they would see beyond soap operas and filmi Hindi-Muslim bhai-bhai.

Yes, WE go to restaurants and do not ask if the cook is a Hindu. Of course, we don’t! I mean, we have got valet parking, the whiff of French perfume as we enter, white-gloved waiters to minister to our needs and get us fresh crockery after every course, and at the end of a satisfying meal there is always the cigar room. (Incidentally, I talked about ‘communities’ having problems drinking water etc at other people’s homes – it is not just a religious divide.)

We all have big dreams for our country, especially if we happen to live in it, and I had reiterated it in my post (#75) to godot: “I do need all the luck in the world and it was nice of you to say that my being what I am makes me a better person, but my country, like most others, is developing. The evolution is slow and there are too many cobwebs, but we are walking around with broomsticks. Often we get mistaken for witches, but we just might magically transform. Watch this space.” So much for being positive. A dear Chowkie has said something even more positive and this is the response he gets: “Then we must all drink warm milk, eat Glucose biscuits, and hold hands around a tree to sing Kumbayah.”

We may continue to dream despite the cynical exclamations of “How unfortunate!” by the ‘better than me’ Muslims of Chowk (and no, I do not wish to be like anyone here to please those I am not even sure I respect – I have my role models, thank you) but when we wake up we cannot go around with our eyes shut. And I do not have to speculate. Either believe me or don’t. But at least read what is written. The builder’s plan was not withdrawn, the buyers withdrew their money after discovering that many Muslims would be staying there. I am sure if they knew a Muslim TV star was to live there, they would have changed their minds! It is sad that we do not understand that a cosmopolitan locality is vastly different from ghettos – and those ghettos belong to all communities: In Bombay, Sikhs congregate in Koliwada, Gujaratis in Vile Parle, Parsis have their colonies and so on. And if we don’t see the difference, there is no way we can make a difference, except to sound right.

Eklavya (#176):

[I have no doubt Farzana shares that ideal and that vision. Given that confidence, I appreciate the fact that she shows to us how very far we remain from that ideal.]

Thank you, and I can also trust you to pull me up when necessary. Btw, I did read that ‘Outlook’ article. I think it talked less about the conundrum and more about Osama as folk hero. Though I liked Mushirul Hasan’s views. I wish it was examined further.

-----

(The following 2 replies seem to have been misplaced, therefore I am reposting):

Amit (#39):

[I personally consider religion to be good enough for celebrating some festivals and having some fun at that time. Other than that, it is a diversion away from accomplishing anything substantial in life.]

Would that not amount to a public display of religion? I think that the mammoth Ganesha, Holis, Diwalis, Moharram celebrations have become a means to assert fragile identities. Some of these are sponsored by the underworld and become entrenched in gutter politics.



bluenoon26 (#40):

I am afraid if was escaping, I would not be here. I do not use the Indian Constitution as smokescreen, but to reiterate that those rights are guaranteed. I repeat: Most of you have only seen my ‘charter of rights’. I added the clause about responsibility. As for the right of others to ask those questions, who am I to even question that prerogative? As for Shabana Azmi tackling the issues head-on, if a televised challenge works for you, it may. But not for Indian Muslims living in India. NO WAY. Besides, no one is asking her those ‘Muslim questions’. Don’t you see that? I started my article by saying that I too would be ‘safe’ and it would be those ‘pockets’ that would be targeted. They will be the ones facing the situation head-on.

When this veil diktat was issued in Kashmir I spoke to my friend in Srinagar. His is an educated middle-class family. I hesitantly asked him if the women in the house had started wearing a burqa. No. Not his sisters. Not his wife. Not even his mother. But there must have been some poor illiterate women who did succumb, and some who have been either brainwashed or begun to believe in a certain ideology that may give the hijaab legitimacy.

Regards,

Farzana

Are there any solutions?

If there was an easy way out, such articles would not have been necessary. People would have been happy and life would go on…

dost-mittarji (#65):

[All I can say to you, Farzana, is that Allah karey zor-e-kalam aur zyaada, especially if you decide to use it to persuade and not just provoke.]

Allah to khafaa hai, aur unke bande aur bhi:) I do not wish to make this sound facile, but provocation is the first step towards persuasion; even the mohtarma sahiba I have not been too kind to does that. Yet, with all her clout, what persuasion has it resulted in?

Let me take you through some replies and see if we can come up with some solution at all.

Asif Naqshbandi (#80):

[I believe that Muslims should work to become a powerful lobby within Indian politics (a la the Jews in the USA) and thus help the situation of Muslims and protect them. But to do this they need to be united and work together for the benefit of Muslims in India as a whole and forget about petty and/or regional/personal differences. Again, the Jews in the US are a good model. Like they control US policy so the Muslims can then get to control Indian government policy. The key to all this is economic clout within India which in turn depends on education and having a pan-Islamic identity whilst still being

Indians. :-)]

While it sounds good, I am touchy about this. Why must Indian Muslims who were born here have to become a lobby? I agree that education is the key, but why must they be robbed of their natural regional affiliations? A Keralite Hindu or Christian is vastly different from one in Bengal, so why not a Muslim? Besides, it is impossible. Therefore it is also impossible for there to be a pan-Islamic identity.

Shailender (#81):

Your post was most heartening. When I was involved in more fieldwork journalism, I would be filled with pangs of guilt; I felt that by scouring those areas and merely writing about them I was in a sense exploiting them as well. Whatever little I have got involved in has been an extension of this. But solutions are a larger priority.

[We can start by educating our children and convincing our friends and family members that being open minded is a good thing. Its good to change old customs that are useless. We should question the religious texts wherever we feel that they inappropriate and morally wrong (anyone who got offended at this statement please think this statement is for other community till you can forget for a moment that you are not a Hindu or Muslim.

Remember you are a human being on the planet earth.]

Of course, I agree with you and most people here will. But values are abstract, and except for the suggestion of being open-minded, there will be several ways in which people might want to be open-minded and interpret texts. The problem with being just a human being is that the earth is too large and people are small. They do not wish to get lost in the vastness and therefore are always looking for ways to belong. I think the best way for any change is to accept that others are different and so long as that difference does not interfere with one’s way of life, it should suffice. One should also show the same consideration to others.

hariharan (#133):

[I admit that many religions propagate extreme fundamentalism. The difference is that other religions have a mechanism to evolve; on the contrary, the islamic ``scholars`` want to hijack the islam to medieval 6/7th century and wish to implement an utopian model

which by definition is barbaric to put it mildly.

There has to be a mechanism in Islam to excommunicate someone preaching hate. Unfortunately, all I hear from even the moderate islamic scholars is that ``islam is peaceful this and peaceful that`` and that Osama has to face his creator on judgement date.

What about NOW?]

While I agree with a few points, I would like to know if there is a way to put the barbarism of the most civilized country in the world, the USA, on hold? If such societies claim to be educated and open-minded, why are we seeing them reply barbarism with barbarism? If this is how they are seeking vengeance, then how different is it from the good old days?

I do not like Islamic scholars at all, but could you please tell me a little more about the “mechanism to evolve” that is present in other religions? I think the way we evolve is an individual choice coupled with upbringing and the environment we live in. As people have so often mentioned here, there is no uniform Islam. As for provisions of excommunicating those who preach hate, that would require an edict, and Islam has far too many, and we all hate fatwas so much, don’t we?

[And who knows, there could a true Quran sitting at the bottom of the ocean, just like someone finding the dead-sea scrolls(hint!hint!) which propagates harmony among all religions.]

Is that a bait? What is the commission I get? Besides, I cannot swim :)

Regards,

Farzana

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In Search of the Moderate Muslim

by Farzana Versey

Oct-31-01 12:17:22 EST Reply #: 203

anNy

eklavya:

``Now, where has this sense of humor been hidden all these days?!

Absolutely marvellous.``

erm..that was a most blatant cut n paste job.. no homegrown humor :(

tahmedsaab urstruly:

heehee.:)...i couldnt stop hooting with laughter myself

Oct-31-01 12:17:22 EST Reply #: 202

SameerJB

Godot #173: That was very well said, right from the heart. However, I am not the right

person to pin even a tiny hope for reformation of Islam. I gave up all hope because of

insurmountable barriers and moreover, I started liking other philosophies than Islamic or

Judeo-Christian-Islamic ones.

Other day, I read an article about Zen Buddhism in a local Indian weekly newpaper, titled

``Sit, Walk or Run but don`t Wobble``. The problem with Islam is that in order to moderate

or reform it, you will have to wobble from the literal translation of holy book and other

material-as different interpretations with selective picking, choosing and discarding.

Why is it incumbent upon me to go through this trouble when I can live peacefully with

myself, my neighbors, my surroundings and nature. I do not believe in man against

satan, satan against god; man against nature, nature against man and man

ashraf-ul-makhluqat. These are funny religions. The spirituality or being at peace with

the self is lost in the clash of a variety of two extremes.

No Godot, I am not going to wobble in order to re-interpret something, I no longer

believe in. Now with the advent of ramzan, how am I going to re-interpret it? Of course, I

have no intention to fast. Although placing myself firmly out of it, I can not totally ignore

the trends in Islam because all of my family members are believing muslims and it

matters a lot to me. It would be hypocritical if I try to talk about reformong Islam while not

only believing in it but prefering other religion (s) over it. Yes, I will support those

responses in favor of reformation for the sake of people I care most, definitely not for

myself.

Regards,

Sameer

Oct-31-01 12:17:22 EST Reply #: 201

gowardhan

[India has remained reticent about making a common cause with Pakistan on the

question of supporting the international campaign against terrorism.] from Yawn

opinion

HA HA HA HA

Make common cause with a thief to safeguard property?

Oct-31-01 12:17:22 EST Reply #: 200

Farzana Versey

For those who deserved an earlier response, I am sorry about this delay. Since most of

the points raised are similar, I shall attempt to answer them as issues in a couple of

posts.

My ‘manifesto’ and jihad:

I did make it clear that I firmly believe in the Indian Constitution. Why did I make those

demands? That itself is revealing – one has to, because one belongs to a certain

community protected by the law, and yet cannot take many things for granted. Which is

why I put that cat among the pigeons.

I said: ``If we want to declare a jihad, we can.`` One of the responses I got was: “NO Ms

Versey -- ``we`` CANNOT -- not here in USA -- nor in INDIA. For that ``we`` have every

``right`` to be slapped, kicked, handcuffed, jailed AND -- even bombed.”

Thanks for reiterating all this. May I remind you that for many Indian Muslims, there is no

need to declare a jihad – there is something called TADA, which gives the

powers-that-be a carte blanche to do all these wonderful things. Or you can be

mistaken for an Afghan and left to die in the hospital premises. Or even though the

government does not have enough information about Abu Salem to have him

extradited, as an Indian Muslim you are supposed to ‘know’.

dost-mittar (#65):

[All these rights are already there, except ``If we want to declare a jihad, we can.`` Now,

by Jehad if you are talking about a non-violent jehad, you have that right too (let`s start

with one against religious bigotry and police brutality...). But if you mean a violent jehad,

that would be a criminal act under the law and would/should be dealt with accordingly;

or maybe you meant something else?]

One reason I added it there was the almost cavalier fashion in which the term was being

bandied about. Regarding non-violent jihad, I would call it infinite justice :) And yes,

against the things you mention, like bigotry, brutality. I am not for a violent jihad by

Indian Muslims at all (except for my views on insurgency movements in my country, that

are out in the open for all to see). Besides, while everyone is concentrating on the

demands, it is unfair to ignore the bottomline where I stated clearly: “But whatever we

do, it must be with the knowledge that while our acts may not be condemnable; they

need not be condoned by others.”

MaheshG (#115):

I had written to you: “You want to know if you can, as a Hindu, wage jihad against

Muslims, ask for Muslim obeisance… NO. Because the issues are not connected. I am

specifically talking about Indian Muslims, right? So, they (a fringe group, which I have

emphasized has no popular clout) have not asked for a jihad against Hindus; not now

and not in 1993. And, on what grounds would you expect Muslim obeisance?”

Your response: “I never said jehad against Indian Muslims, did I? ANd there is no law

calling for Muslim obeisance. Hindus can not demand it. And that is precisely my point.

You can`t ask for rights that are exclusive to Muslims. Muslims should conform to the

same laws that everybody else is.”

It would be interesting to know who Hindus would wage a jihad against (if at all) if not

Indian Muslims. In Islam, they cry out everytime they see an infidel. They see it as a part

of their religion. None of those ‘rights’ are exclusive to Muslims. I mean, Hindus too can

wear a bindi, grow beards etc. Muslims do conform to the laws – in fact there are specific

ones enacted for ‘bad Muslims’.

[I don`t believe what you are saying here. Babri Masjid was pulled down citing Hindu

sentiment and you are telling me you won`t ask your Hindu friends whether that is really

the sentiment or not? Maybe not you personally but others would.]

Except for Dawood Ibrahim and his cohorts (whose form of asking was to bomb parts of

the city), I am telling you in all sincerity that Hindus were not questioned. It is not

inherent Muslim gentleness, of course – perhaps minority fears prevented it. And this

was the case even in the worst-affected areas. The establishment and its movers and

shakers were blamed, mostly in whispers, but there were heart-warming stories about

the kindness of friends from the other community. I cannot deny that with time and the

wonderful jugalbandi of ‘extremist-liberal’ intervention, the suspicions have crept into

their minds. But it is more in the minds of those living in skyscrapers.

[And it is only the liberals that I pose these questions to. Because it is important to know

what they think of people who claim to follow their own religion and indulge in these

heinous acts. It is important because it is in the hands of the liberal to rescue their

religion

from the hands of the terrorists.]

Liberals live on an island. They always have more questions than answers. And why

must a religion be questioned even if terrorists commit their acts under its guise? Have

you not seen liberals like Yaseen Malik join the ranks of militants? He is not a child who

was brainwashed. In Kashmir many of the militants have got married to women who are

doctors, engineers, professors. So, what gives here? I have been talking about the

double-speak of liberals who cannot decide and therefore keep their options open. (I

am certainly not talking about the Chowkies you mentioned.)

I don’t mean to bait you, but since you ask me questions and you do not think I am a

liberal, under what category would you place me? Yes, I am aware you have not called

me a Pakistani, but when others have you have not jumped in to defend me either.

Sadna (#117):

[But I think its not uncommon to come across NR Muslims, not necessarily from India,

who hold this general belief, mostly in a benign impersonal way, that all the world will

eventually be converted to Islam including America, Europe and India. They seem to

regard this as an inevitable consequence of the existence of Islam.

So my question is, what is your own opinion about this, esp with respect to Indians of

nonMuslim faith? Is such a belief an inseparable part of every ``religious`` Muslim`s belief,

do you think? Do `fundamental rights to religious freedom` for Muslims in India need to

allow public manifestations of this internal belief (in the eventual triumph of Islam), for

Muslims to feel truly free to follow their religion? If nonMuslim Indians donot accept in

principle that all nonMuslims Indians are inevitably headed for Islam, is this a curtailment

of Indian Muslims religious freedoms?]

Yes, NR Muslims possibly do suffer from this belief, but it is less benign and impersonal

than you think. I suppose having been co-opted into a ‘conglomerate’, they yearn for a

brotherhood, and they believe that Islam will provide that. (Christianity uses the more

subtle form of charity as intellectual of not real conversion.)

Re. my opinion, I certainly am not looking for an Islamic utopia (if there is one) for India.

Most Indian Muslims are extremely aware about Hinduism, though as always happens,

cultural clashes are sometimes inevitable. By ‘Religious’ Muslims in India if you mean

those who believe in the tenets of Islam and practise them in their lives, then they

would not want to be Hinduized in any manner that is antithetical to their religion or

understanding of it. But there is a segment that is ‘super-religious’, and they are the

equivalent of the Bajrang Dal etc. But being a minority community they do not see any

hope of India turning into an Islamic nation. (And they do not want to go to Pakistan

either. I wonder what message that gives us.)

The ‘triumph of Islam’ is a pipe dream at best. I think every society assumes they are on

the verge of a renaissance when they are threatened OR they acquire clout. Islam is

currently in both these positions, depending on where you are and what you are

thinking. Being a monotheistic religion that holds the Book as the final word, there is

bound to be curtailment of those of non-Islamic faiths that flout those norms. Islam as

some believers tell us is a religion of tolerance, but it is also a stringent belief system

following a linear path. To use a metaphor, it is like a highway; you have to follow a

certain speed; no jaywalking and stay beyond those fences.

But I am not the best representative of good or bad Muslims.

-----

Some other questions will be dealt with in a subsequent post.

Regards,

Farzana

Oct-31-01 12:17:22 EST Reply #: 199

SameerJB

Ali1 #169:

[another problem with good muslims is that they have their shaving priorities all

wrong.... upside down, literally.]

This is only true for good muslim men. For good muslim women, it would be something

like:

[another problem with good muslims is that they have their shaving priorities all

wrong.... downside up, literally.]

Please, please, in the name of father, the son and the holy ghost, please shave your

legs and not........

Oct-31-01 12:17:22 EST Reply #: 198

Zafar Al-Talib

Hello peoples.

Here is a random prediction.

US will keep saying that they will bomb through Ramzan.

Musharraf will keep telling them not to - perhaps at the last minute he will give them a

``final warning``, threatening to withdraw Pakistan`s support for the war.

The US will then back down with much muttering and complaining.

The war will not be much affected by this cessation of bombing for a month.

Musharraf will be much strengthened domestically.

The US and Musharraf will live happily ever after (don`t ask me about the Afghans post

Ramzan) - er, until the pesky subject of Kashmir comes up.

Does this sound likely, or a paranoid chomsky type fantasy, or both?

Zafar

Oct-31-01 12:17:22 EST Reply #: 197

rajanjua

re: dost-mittar

``Leaving aside the contentious issue of to what extent the conversions (in the

subcontinent) were a change of heart and to what extent they were due to various

incentives and disincentives,``

I think we exchanged a couple of posts on this topic before - Just wanted to add a few

words on the spread of Islam which according to some was purely on the basis of sword

or reward, etc.

1. There was no invading army sent into south east asia (malaysia & indonesia).

Indonesia is the most populous muslim country in the world.

2. Mongols and other Turkic tribes almost wiped out the Islamic/Arab civilization but

after conquerering the Muslims they themselves converted to Islam (these guys sure

as hell were neither afraid nor needed any incentives) - Two of their clans are especially

illustrious - The Usmani Turks and the Chagatai Turks (aka Mughals) - Babar by the way,

used to rule the area north of Afghanistan and was pushed out of that region by one of

his cousin, Uzbek Khan, into Afghanistan. His kingdom/khandom in the north lost, he

decided to turn east.

``I would suggest that most people at the time of conversion thought that conversion

merely meant belief in one God and His Prophet, the rest of the baggage coming later.``

I am not sure what people thought at that time - but I think, although religion eventually

becomes part of a culture it cannot be allowed to dominate the culture and this whole

idea of ``Islam being a complete way of life`` is total nonsense. The rest of the baggage

as you put it, has been invented by a bunch of morons and they are welcome to

practise it in Kandahar.

``The whole aspect of Islam and culture has become very topical. It would be useful if

you could find the time to write a critique of Naipaul`s work on Chowk.``

V. S. Naipaul in my opinion is quite mediocre and I was surprised that they gave him the

Nobel Prize. His younger brother Shiva, would have been a better choice, although I

don`t think he has written that much.

Regards.

Oct-31-01 12:17:22 EST Reply #: 196

shima

Farzana, you probably have read it, but if not then, please read it.

http://www.indian-express.com/ie20011031/ed3.html

Oct-31-01 12:17:22 EST Reply #: 195

shima

Farzana, obviously you did not want to address me, but addressed my post. Does not

really matter. I don`t think any Indians in Chowk has any doubt about the ground reality

in India, especially about the Hindu-Muslim relationship, and many of us know (even if

they do not agree) that the problems exist. But my point has been always with your

articles, what are you as a media person trying to do to remediate those problems? Do

you not also play a part in mutual trust building? Do you think by just pointing out the

problems that too in a non-functional forum like Chowk, you become a great activist? My

friend, you are wrong there. Of course you will always be what you want to be, thus you

can never be Zafar or Faruk at least to some of us. You chose to be part of the

problems, but not the solution as you want.

I do not know who are those Hindus that you talk about, but if you trust me, all my

relatives have water, korma, biriyani,kebab,Ruh-afza, (but no vegetables!!, I don`t think

you can cook vegetable, last time I ate in a muslim friend`s house, she put ground meat

in Okra) from any muslims. When we go to an Indian restaurant, we never ask whether

the food was made by a Hindu cook. I am 40+ old (if experience counts), have never

seen any Hindu friends doing that. I really do not know whether you are talking about

urban Hindus or villagers (I do not have any clue about the villages). Hope the villages

also have come long way as well, especially when movies, serials are showing so much

of Hindu-Muslim Bhai-Bhai themes.

Do you really know why the builder`s plan was withdrawn? Do not try to speculate.

When I mentioned about Shabana, I never even thought that we (you, Shabana and

me) all happen to be women. So, do not try to read between the lines. See, to me and

many other Indians, Shabana is just a fine and gifted human being. It did not occur to

me until recently that she has a religion!!!

Shima #195 appealed to Farzana Versey:

`` What Faruk says is correct, we have come a long way with our heavy baggage, and have a long way to go. My only complaint or plea to you that use your writing power/skill not to create any more divison, but to cement the divison. Next time send an article in Chowk focusing at least one of your positive experiences in India. I am sure you may have one in your 20-30+ life there.``

As someone who is also in his mid-40s, I join Shima in suggesting to you that you should accentuate the

positive. Critics are useful in identifyng problematic issues, but unremitting criticism is ineffective and inflames the situation.

You are talented. You can write well. Therefore, write -- about problems for sure, but about solutions too. Good luck!

Reply # 217 haramiu

[``Now you are trolling for women on Chowk.``]

Actually, I am trolling for fresh Tamil Brahmin boys with wobbly necks..... chalega kya, sussray madrasi.

Godot #216

Thanks for being open-minded.

I also noticed re hadiths that many were saying

from ``ayesha`` who was mohammad`s youngest wife.

I think she was 6 or 9 when she was married to the prophet and she was still young when he died.

If one one were to take some of Islam`s other hadith`s which states that the testimony of women is only ``half good`` or something to that effect, then using the same logic, isn`t ``ayesha`` hadith`s are only half good. So how could anyone give credence to ayesha`s hadiths? you could see islam has contradictions.

regards.

Asif: Miss me?

``Actually, the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam was NOT just an ordinary human being but he was the Beloved of The Divine Lord and the Final Messenger of Allah. As Allah says, in His Qur`an:

Say (o my beloved): If you want to love Allah, then follow me (i.e. The Prophet).``

This was likely a command for the Muslims of his day. The Q also says that we shouldnt make distinctions between .... And also theres nothing superhuman about muhammed. He was the last, so Adam was the first, Big Deal...

``If one reads the Qur`an with the eyes of iman``

LOL @ ``EYES OF AN IMAM.`` I guess I aint the only one who hasnt been to a mosque lately...

``O Abu Bakr (radhi Allah anhu) NO ONE know my true self EXCEPT My Lord!``

I like that one... U shoulda put a Sufi twist to it...

scout auntie,

[``Do me a favor, speak when you`re spoken to and keep your thoughts to yourself.``]

You are a ``mix of East and West``, like the stupid indian women claim in matrimonial ads....

You speak like a Western bimbo, but want to be spoken to as if you were an Eastern lady.

MaheshG # 204

I will keep my response as short as possible (I am hungry and unfortunately I dont have anyone nice to keep my meals ready :( )

Verifiable fact: Many Indian muslims are, to some extent, torn between their admiration, howsoever tiny it may be, for Osama and the need they feel not to overtly display that admiration.

Your question: Then isn`t the stereotype true that Muslims identify themselves as Muslims first and Indians second? Afterall, you, Mahesh, wonder, since Osama is anti-India (I agree. Osama is not only anti-India, he is anti everything I consider good and proper in human affairs) why is any sympathy for him not necessarily a sign of an anti-India (or in my broader perspective, anti-human) belief system?

To even begin to answer that question, Mahesh, one has to go the very beginning (even though mere pate mein chuhe kood rahein hain): what is a human being? What is his (no time to be politically correct..``his`` will do for both men and women) motivation? What are his dreams? And what is the nature of the web of relations that simultaneously binds his feat and enables him to walk?

To answer those questions, begin with the basic human condition: All of us live, breathe, play, and dream at the intersection of multiple, cross-cutting, weak and strong, near and far, diverse set of relationships. NONE of these relationships need necessarily be a threat to other relationships so long as the BALANCE, the center of gravity as it were, remains more or less centered.

Mahesh, these relations are what allow us to live, breathe, and dream. These are what make each and every one of us distinct from anyone else. Each tenuous connection brings in its own little bit of magic, weaving, with other relationships, a fabric that is transformed, miraculously, into a whole human being. Along these linkages travel our emotions and our hopes. They house our past and our future. These linkages ARE us - we are not separate from them, they constitute us.

That is why I have argued elsewhere that the process of ``purification`` is akin to the process of human death. To put it with brutal honesty, a ``completely purified`` human being is an oxymoron. An automaton yes, human being no.

So you see, Mahesh, the existence of one or few religious, emotional linkages, by itself, is not what should frigten you. What should draw your attention is the locus of the overall center of gravity in the whole web of relationships. I can see why, were I an Indian muslim, I might feel certain sympathy, certain admiration, for Osama. That does not necessarily mean that I would do anything at all that might hurt India and help Osama. By the same token, I would understand why my sympathy, howsoever small, may be a source of alarm for some Indian Hindus. Both those emotions - of sympathy and alarm - are natural, and not dysfunctional so long as these emotions do not turn into our ruling passions! So long as we treat each other with tact and respect, as we do when we disagree with members of our families on this issue or that, our long term future is assured.

Indian Muslims have kept their end of the bargain. They have, for the most part, not gone bananas. Indian Hindus shouldn`t go bananas worrying, either. A bit of respect and sensitivity for the safety and natural emotions of the other on the part of both will go a long way. And isn`t that, Mahesh, what makes the promise of India worth fighting for?

Jaate Jaate: Mahesh, I will let you in on a secret. I have a feeling that the problem Indian muslims face is not unique. Something tells me that it must exist, in some form, in Pakistan too. While many liberal and good Pakistanis genuinely are frightened by what Osama stand for, there must be a significant number of them that are internally conflicted, and who will not readily and openly share all their views except in relationships of sufficient trust. These people are not anti Pakistan. It is just that ``religion,`` not matter how distorted its practice may have become, pulls at us at a primitive level. Most of us have learnt to control that pull, and not be enslaved by it.

Later Gator.

Sadna writes:

``Urstruly #220 #221

Not that I really want to know, but this issue you(and some others) have with Khatris is part of your local culture, Arabic culture or pure fundamental Islam?``

My answer:

Neither, and its not even an issue. Its one of many symptoms of a disease that Urstruly and many others (from all denominations) suffer to varying degrees. Its easier to understand if you imagine that the victim of the disease is a child/adolescent becoming aware of the complexities and inequities of life and having a hard time dealing with them. In Urstruly`s particular case, he believes that the answer to all the problems in the world lie with him (really its got nothing to do with Islam or tradition, he`s just fooling himself). Urstruly is honestly & truly a very worried person, but he has trouble expressing himself or even classifying his worries accurately - let alone addressing them. He suffers from an extreme mix of inferiority/superiority complex i.e. one or the other, never the between.

This disease can also be classified as a weakness, since it impairs mental faculties and suspends common sense during the period the victim feels threatened (in their own particular way). Many examples come to mind... like Urstruly`s claim that Jews did not show up for work on 9/11 (and as I mentioned in my post to him, this claim is ok coming from someone in a madrassah in Pak. who is not exposed to multiple information sources and is fed BS by moulvis- but coming from Urstruly, I knew right away he was suffering from the `disease` and I tried to help in my own crazy way )

Urstruly`s response to Fuzair was even more interesting, he claimed I was a Hindu. The games he plays with himself to keep himself happy ( On a related note: he did mention somewhere else that he liked to masturbate a lot too - not that its got anything to do with the disease). Since I did not agree with his version of how a Muslim should be, I had to change and become something else, preferably something he despises: Hindu (Don`t feel hurt guys, its only Urstruly).

I guess everyone suffers from this disease to some degree.. but currently on chowk, Urstruly is the one exhibiting the most intelligible symptoms.

I hear you say: But Whats The Cure?.. well its different for different people and you have to always be on guard because the disease can creep back when you least expect it. One of the common cures is to question everything you hear or read (Urs: Question even the Mullahs and the Koran/God, ok ?), and try not to be a prejudiced or bigoted, because that puts pre-conditions on any questions you may have. The victim/subject usually requires mentorship (the mentors should follow these basic rules too, you don`t want Osama as your mentor, do you Urstruly ?), otherwise he ends up fooling himself again. A dispassionate sounding board can always be useful in any situation.

This was just my personal diagnosis. I wish I could be more succint and clear like Sattar2, but thats one of my many shortcomings. In my defense, very little research has been done on this disease.

Farzana, it never ceases to amaze me when muslims complain about lack of freedom of speech in democratic republics like India, despite their religous edicts which prohobit free speech.

The muslims nations of today that do foster free speech are few and they are dictated more by their cultural norms rather than religous ones.

Also, there is something called loyality towards the country of their birth, a concept that escapes most muslims.

Have you ever noticed that Buddhists, Parsis, Jains, etc never attract the negative publicity that muslims do, despite having agendas different from the main stream ?

Ad

Reply Urstruly # 220

``Where is this Aadha Khatri Zafar now a days. His masters have again destroyed another mosque on 10/27/01 in the pretext of chasing the freedom fighters.``

Surya Namashkar Mrs Peron. Always lovely to read your posts - so sweet, so intelligent, so obviously cultured. Now that you mention it, however, where is all that data on mosque destruction by the Indian Army that you promised to post on chowk? A Muslim always keeps his promises, isn`t that so?

Stay slim and lovely.

Respectfully

Zafar

PS If a murderer hides in a mosque, does that mean you let the murderer go free to harm more innocent people? I`d like a fatwa on this from some qualified person. (No Mrs Peron, despite your many...er...charms, I feel that you may not be qualified to do as much as you would like to in the fatwa department.) Btw, I`ve noticed you trying to backpeddle on your claims...how can you bend the truth and call it a service to Islam? This isn`t a domestic quarrel you know...

Ref concerned #: 224

[the indian govt appointed k.c. pant as its envoy to talk to kashmiri parties. all preconditions of `talks only within the parameters of indian constitution`, etc were dropped. shabir shah met with k.c. pant...the aphc refused to meet him.]

Don`t confuse the Impacted-Wisdom-Tooth with facts. She has already made up her mind.

UrsTtruly:

The Indian Army has a blanket policy of not sparing terrorists who take refuge in mosques. They have repeatedly announced this, and there is nothing covert about it.

If the terrorists themselves make the choice of defiling a mosque by their presence, or use it as a convenient getaway, they are then responsible for the subsequent military action.

If a criminal commits murder in the US and then runs and hides in a mosque you think the cops won`t follow him? If the criminal refuses to come out, will the police not use fire arms? They certainly will.

If your people want to use mosques as criminal getaways, that`s your problem, not ours.

RSaxena

“It`s in your best interest not to encourage me to write an article. Trust me. I think my posts are enough for most Chowkies.”

…well, if your posts are anything to go by…..

Farzana #200:

``I am not for a violent jihad by Indian Muslims at all (except for my views on insurgency movements in my country, that are out in the open for all to see).``

Farzana, I am disappointed by the exception you make. You seem to be saying that `jihad` by insurgency movements is okay? A `holy war` based on religion? Insurgency movements have been ethnic / regional, but do you support religion based insurgency? You cannot eat your cake and have it too - supporting jihad on one hand and on the other claiming that Indian Constitution guarantees blah blah blah...

et tu Farzana?

concerned 224,

You should not have bothered. It is not that farzana is not aware of the reality that APHC refused to meet K,C Pant, she has to present the paki view, and like any stooge, tries to over do it. She has to push the apki view of tripartite talks, and see...how the indians refused. That is all what she sees, and this is a very good example of her blinkered view.

regards

jay

AMERIPAKIS AND CHRISTIAN JIHAD

If the american saw their oats and a sizeable number of ameripakis are created, from a religious perspective, it could lead to the creation of a virulent form of christianity. Obviously, ameripakis will be shunned by the society, they cannot be muslims, they will be largely orphans, and orphanages being mainly christian, going by the indian example, the ameripakis could devolp a concept of christian jihad.

Sameer# 199

sameersaab please excuse my butting in but i`v taken serious note of your advice to ladies shaving their legs..are you MAD? do you know how that absolutely ruins ones skin? never ever let your lady NEAR a razor...waxing is the way to go about it...it not only makes ones skin smooth but if the hairs to come back, its halka and within sometime of waxing regularly, growth stops..also the hair comes after a loong time...on the other hand if the lady is to use a razor, new pores will open everytime she uses one and the hair will be back in a day or two..and that hair will be very danda like...very ugly...u understand? never ever let any lady around you shave

if you are in pakistan and like, id be more than happy to find a nice waxing lady for you (very cheap also) and if ure else where i can look..theres one good waxing lady in every state..

excuse my outburst but pls dont advocate using of a razor..it sends a chill down my spine

Regards,

anNy

Urstruly #220:

``Where is this Aadha Khatri Zafar now a days.``

Isn`t Islam (of which you are a fervid exponent)

neutral with respect to ethnicity, nationality,

and other separators of humankind? Then why do

you use the term ``Khatri`` in a seeemingly pejorative tone? Also, aren`t you implying

that ``Adha Khatri`` is somehow subhuman?

People have been unnecessarily calling Taliban bad. The last paragraph in this article was first reported in Information Times. It must be true. Please spread it. Those who dont believe it can try to disprove it.

More sex please, we are the Taliban

Aditya Sinha

(Peshawar, October 31)





With their harsh edicts, the Taliban are known as women-haters. However, there is a little-known soft side to the Taliban, filled with the romance and passion of a cheap novel.

There is the rumour about Osama bin Laden and Mullah Omar — that they’re related by marriage. Two years ago, the rumour was Osama had married Mullah Omar’s daughter. And when the current crisis broke, it was said Mullah Omar had married Osama’s daughter. So did this mean that each of the girls concerned went to bed with her grandfather-in-law? Or that each was the stepdaughter of her stepdaughter (and so on)?

The Taliban said this was malicious propaganda. They do not deny, however, that the 41-year-old, one-eyed Mullah Omar’s second wife is a teenager (a euphemism for a 13-year-old). There is little conjugal bliss nowadays, what with the bombing around the star-crossed couple - they are having sleepless nights of a different kind altogether.

Mullah Omar is not the only Taliban leader with sex appeal: one of the oldest members of his Cabinet, Maulvi Jalaluddin Haqqani, recently had a love marriage. Haqqani, 50, fought the Soviets, and is now being wooed by the ISI.

An Arab girl watched Haqqani, a tall fellow with a long beard to which he regularly applies henna, being interviewed by Al-Jazeera, and she fell in love (sigh!). A marriage was arranged, and before the war broke out Haqqani was a frequent visitor to his Arabian sasuraal. Sadly, he now only visits his house in Miranshah in the NWFP (across the border from his stronghold in Afghanistan’s Paktia province) where the ISI treats him a little less than a son-in-law.

Then there is the Jamaat-Ulema-e-Islam’s chief, Maulana Samiul Haq, in whose madrassas many a Talib was created. He is known as Maulana Sandwich, after being caught in a famous Islamabad brothel by the vice-squad. Maulana Sandwich was said to be in the middle, but if you’re thinking that there were two women, guess again — only one of his partners was reportedly of the fairer sex.

There are also rumours about General Pervez Musharraf, but it would be irresponsible, unethical and cheap to report salacious gossip just for the heck of it.

Concerned 224

Dont trouble her with facts. Fantasyland is more fun for her. Who is KCPant? Only AHPC.

MocK|ngByrd #194 ``i dont get half the stuff you people write..does that make me stupid?``

No, you win first prize for getting half the stuff. Second prize too, for keeping your post short.

rjanjua #197 Good post sir, and informative too. The Usmani Turks of course went on to form the Ottoman (Usmani) Empire, compared to which even the mighty Mughal Empire of the subcontinent was a quaint little province (in terms of geographical extent and durability and probably in scientific achievement too).

Karakoram #239
Thanks. Its a fast changing world whereever you live and whatever you believe and we all face this disease. Only I wish he wouldnot take it out on beysharam liberals and Indians. I sometimes think Urstruly reactions are directly related what was published in the Urdu newspapers that morning. I donot mean this perjoratively AT ALL, I mean, in the sense of different points of view which we are not familiar with. It would be a great service if we knew what they say, then we can hear as well as provide different takes on the same things.

Farzana # 229

Ofcourse, you can.



Sooner or later we will have to examine Mushirul Hasan’s views further. We can not let our communities be hijacked by a few of any variety, religious or nonreligious, left or right, tall or short.