Benazir Bhutto in Sacramento

OOps gowy here`s another one.

Bhim Singh, a reputed Indian writer feels totally perturbed over the Indian Government’s in human behaviour being meted out to the people of Indian held Kashmir. The excerpts from his book ‘Flames in Kashmir’ reveal the real side of the story.



Mal Administration

``On our way to Sonamarg, hundreds of people gave us bundles of files, letters, applications and memoranda which they had been sending by post or submitting personally to the local officers, police SHO and governor. No acknowledgment and none has taken note of their representations, no matter what merit they carried. Whether it was Anantnag or Sopore or Badgam or Charar-e-Sharief or Kangan, the local residents were complaining about shortage of drinking water, kerosene oil, firewood and ration. 90 per cent people complained about the failure of the administration to supply essential commodities. People in Sopore had every right to be angry against the ``discriminatory and malafide`` attitude of the administration towards them. Hundreds of shops and houses were destroyed in a fire on January 6, 1993 .The government promised to pay them damages through the insurance company. Not a single penny has been paid till date. There are dozens of cases of this nature. All false promises indeed!`` (P-34)

``Several cases were presented to our team regarding those boys who were detained in different jails in J&K and outside. In several cases, the detention period had already expired. Local courts had directed the government to release the detenus on bail. There are more than 500 such cases where the detenus continued to be in ``wrongful confinement`` in one form or the other. Administration did not care for judicial orders. Judiciary also did not care to proceed further. Administration’s writ runs, merit or no merit``. (P-34)

``There is no agency, either private or public, to listen to the grievances of the people. The government under the pretext of putting up a Grievance cell has appointed a police officer to look into the grievances of the public. A mockery of the rule of law. An NGO, the State Legal Aid Committee of Jammu and Kashmir which wanted to set up a Shikayat Markaj (Grievance Centre) was not allowed by the state to function inspite of the clearance of the Union Home Ministry. The goveror vetoed. Vested interest or demonstration of authoritarianism?`` (P-34,35)

``Most refugee camps are the dens of mosquitoes, scorpions and snakes. The Kashmiri Pandits and Dogras in them ( Dogras were settled in the Valley 140 years ago during the reign of Maharaja Ranbir Singh) were all set to return but the governor vetoed the move! The migrants have been dumped in Udhampur, Nagrota and Jammu. Many of them died of snake or scorpion bite. The Union Home Ministry sent a special team to Srinagar asking the State administration to provide facilities to these migrants for their return. The governor, Krishna Rao, who claims to be the closest confident of the Prime Minister again vetoed the proposal. The Hurriyat Conference Leaders I approached had agreed to welcome them back to their homes``. (P-35)

``The residents living in such remote places as Tangdhar, Karnah, Uri, Kupwara have been deprived of essential commodities like kerosene oil, firewood and sugar, Some residents who came with their representations told our team that the administration has been making false announcements in the media about the supply of foodgrains and kerosene oil to farmers. The fact was that sugar, kerosene oil, and other such essential commodities which were to have been supplied through ration cards had not reached these areas at all. Most of these items are sold to traders through government agencies at Jammu itself. False entries are prepared to show their distribution in the destined places. Same in the far-flung areas of paddar, Marwah, Dachan, Kaljugasar in Doda district and Goolgulabgarh and Ramnagar in Udhampur``. (P-35,36)

``Ladakh region suffers from bureaucratic discrimination like any other district in Jammu. Not even 5 per cent of the funds provided for the schemes for the unemployed youth have been implemented in Ladakh region. Not a single industrial project has even undertaken by the state or the Central government. Not even 5 per cent of the unemployed youth have been given the benefit under the Prime Minister’s Employment Schemes. Banks do not care a bit and charge high rates of commission``.

``In July 1985, Wali Mohd, Ittoo, the then Speaker, was physically lifted from the House when he refused to adjourn it. A Congress Member of the Assembly was physically installed in total violation of rules of procedures and the rule of law. The case is still pending before the Bench of the Supreme Court. Jagmohan, then Governor, approved the action of G.M Shah’s Government on the pretext that this was done inside the House and he had no jurisdiction to intervene though all the rules were flouted. The argument was malafide and lacked the support of law. Yet no legal or political pundit could dare speak in the ``National Interest``. (P-58)

Illegal Detention

``One letter was presented to me by the father of a Kashmir detenue who is lodged in one of the Punjab jails. The term of his detention expired six months ago but he continued to be detained illegally in Sangroor Jail of Punjab. Another gentleman has a similar complaint. He has not heard any news of his two sons for the last two years. He did not know which jail they were lodged in. The third person with a long traditional beard makes his way into the crowd and hugs me. With tears rolling down his eyes, he complains about the inhuman behaviour of the security forces stationed on the bridge side. Several people started speaking simultaneously complaining, protesting and praying for justice and human treatment from the administration and security forces``.

Indian Atrocities

According to a group of Human Rights Activits ``Indian Army occupied Kashmir, and ever since ``more than 30,000 Kashmiri women have been raped by Indian security personnel, of whom 6,000 got pregnant and delivered illegitimate babies``. (P-77)

``In Gondon, a Government employee, Abdul Latif, was killed while in custody whereas three people died and nearly 50 suffered serious injuries during an Army crackdown in a village of Bhadharwah Tehsil. These incidents do need a thorough and judicial probe to restore confidence of the local people``. (P-129)

Statement of Home Minister

``Meanwhile, Home Minister Chavan has caused a great deal of confusion by his statement on the floor of the Rajya Sabha on Jun 1, that the government was willing to ascertain the views of the people of Jammu and Kashmir on whether they really want to merge with Pakistan or they want an independent Kashmir``. (P-98)

Elections in IHK

``The present administration has failed to establish its authority in 5 years, Even Class III and IV employees of J&K Government like patwaris, Chowkidars and Police Constables have refused to carry out the Government directives to register voters. Then where are the voters? Nearly 5,000 young people are in jail waiting for their trials in different places, More than 2,000 are on the list of ``Missing persons`` and most of them are rotting in the PoK camps or undergoing arms training somewhere there. Nearly 1,90,000 migrant-voters are spread all over India and are lodging in different refugee camps in Jammu, Udhampur, Delhi and elsewhere``. (P-100)

``The Election Commission’s refusal to provide Identity Cards (ICs) to the voters has also caused doubts in the minds of the people about the real intention to hold free and fair polls in the State``. (P-111)

``Seshan’s announcement that identity cards will be provided in all the states except Jammu and Kashmir has strengthened the belief that the Centre is not interested in holding free and fair polls in Kashmir. One of the main reasons for the rise of militancy in Kashmir was the memories of electoral fraud committed by the government in connivance with the election machinery in the assembly polls in 1987 and then in the parliamentary by-elections from Udhampur in 1988, have not faded``. (P-115)

The Delimitation Commission with Justice K.K. Gupta as its Chairman submitted its final recommendations in June 1992, increasing the Assembly seats from 76 to 87. Two seats were added for Ladakh region whereas five for the region of Jammu and four for Kashmir valley. This order of the Delimitation Commission was rejected by the Chief Election Commissioner, T.N Seshan, as ``a fraud on the statute``. Seshan went further to add that the order of the Delimitation Commission was totally illegal, fraud and non- existent for several reasons``. (P-125)

``The people of Jammu and Kashmir have swallowed bitter lemons for decades. One of the main reasons for the rise of militancy in Jammu and Kashmir was rigging and manipulation in the electoral process in the State. The past memories of electoral frauds committed by the Government in connivance with the election machinery in the Assembly polls 1987 and then in parliamentary bye-elections from Udhampur in 1988, are neither forgettable nor forgivable``. (P-126)

Failure of Civil Administration

``Doda’s people have suffered a lot at the hands of indifferent administrators. No factory, no industry, no roads, no development, no dispensaries, no communication. Eighty per cent of the population is still dependent on river water for their drinking needs and that too 5 to 10 Kms away``. (P-131)

Popular Support

``The Congress and the National Conference, the major political parties which have ruled Jammu and Kashmir since 1950, are not prepared to go for the polls because their popular support is at the lowest level, particularly in the Valley which has 42 Assembly seats out of a total of 76``. (P-134)

Collapse Of Democratic Institutions

``One stark factor is that all democratic institutions in the State of J&K from the panchayat to the Assembly level, have collapsed. Nearly six million people of the State have been denied their basic fundamental rights to choose their representatives for the local bodies, panchayats, Assembly and the parliament``. (P-161)

``Instead of working out a methodology to involve the local population in the running of the local affairs of the State, the centre chose to import the ``viceroys`` from different parts of the country, mostly outdated and unemployed ex-bureaucrats who have been designated as advisors. The post of the advisor was totally foreign to the Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir. Surprisingly, all advisors have also been exercising their powers of a Minister of the Cabinet rank, which is totally illegal and unconstituational. Some of the ordinances which were promulgated by Jagmohan, for example, an ordinance on the security of the border within the meaning of the Constitution. But, such ordinances are still continuing even though they have no legal sanctions at all``. (P-161)

Corruption in Bureaucracy

``There has been no check on the exercise of powers by the bureaucrats. The money which has been flooding from Delhi for developmental works has never been utilised by the bureaucratic government because they are not answerable to anybody. In some districts, the District Development Commissioners (DDCs) were arrested for having swallowed the entire annual budget fixed for the development of the district. Anantnag is a living example in this regard. Corruption has almost been legalised and the ``viceroys`` are busy in hunting fish out of the troubled waters of the Dal Lake``. (P-161)

Need For Rehabilitation

``The State is also suffering from constitutional anarchy. There is not a single democratic system, which is operating any longer nor the public men have any say in running the affairs of the State``. (P-162)

Sufferings of People

``It was during that period that mines, industrial land were leased out to the non-State also sold to the outsiders too. The residential places of residents. The marble mines of Kupwara and diamonds of paddar were Maharaja Hari Singh in Bombay were sold at throw away prices without the consent of the assembly for the sake of commissions. The people of Jammu continued to suffer but were obliged to keep quiet in the name of nationalism and unity of the State. These volcanoes are at the exploding point!. In 1950, so called Assembly was constituted under the seal of the ``Regent,`` Yuvraj Karan Singh without holding elections in a single constituency. This was the first fraud on the people of Jammu and Kashmir``. (P-201)

``The government, is indifferent to public issues, whereas the Centre does not want to interfere with the state government. Almost every family has been affected one way or the other. According to official figures, till January 1, 1997, over 16,898 people were killed during militancy, which included 7,727 civilians and 1,31 security personnel. The injured numbered more than 12,000. The unofficial figures are much higher. Nearly 5,000 youth are still in prison. Some 3,00,000 Kashmiris, both Muslims and Hindus, are living outside the Valley as migrants and need immediate rehabilitation. Instead, the government, to divert the attention of the people from the real issues, has chosen to browbeat the Centre and exploit innocent Kashmiris by raising the bogey of the so Called ``greater autonomy`` which has no taker except some retired drawing room leaders and intellectuals in Delhi``. (P-212)

I personally dont agree with a lot of what Chomsky has to say... but I think he is on the dot on few of the points... for example I havent understood satisfactorily enough as why the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a blow for humanity .... or why the operation enduring freedom is now using `Daisy cutters`?

The formerly de-humanized WTC mass murderers are beginning to look human.

-YLH

tell you what Gowardhan, everytime you put up an article of hate against Pakistan, I will put up a newsstory from Kashmir, and about the violence against christians dalits and muslims in mainstream India.. ok?

Here goes ... Are you ready Gowy dear?

Here are some extracts from an article written by James Buchan on Kashmir. James Buchan spent ten years as a foreign correspondent for the Financial Times. He has written five novels, among them ``A Parish of Rich Women,`` which won the Whitbread First Novel Award: ``Heart`s Journey in Winter,`` which won the Guardian Fiction Prize; and most recently ``High Latitudes.``

1. …I am bewildered by novelty: not just the hillsides clear-cut of trees, or the shuttered bazaar in Anantnag and the soldiers and armed police everywhere, or the filthy lake and the crudy hotels along the Boulevard with soldiers` underclothes flapping from their balconies, or the streets full of garbage and army checkpoints ; but something about the way the Kashmiris move. The men hurry along with their heads bowed, evidently on some urgent business, though the bazaar and administration have been closed by a general strike. The women are muffled in their burqas, as if relieved to hide their faces (and hence their identities) behind a general, harmless and degraded femininity. They look as if the Indians have knocked the stuffing out of them.

2. On the stern of the boat, in the twenty-watt light, I drink Indian whisky from a teapot. A full moon shivers in the lake. The silence is broken every now and then, by a single or double gunshot, the muezzin hawking into the Hazratbal mosque public address system, or the lake belching methane from its bed of * * * * and silt. There are lights on the other side: the villas of war profiteers. The green bloom on the lake surface is indescribably sickly. I fear the Kashmir I knew ten years ago has no counterpart in this utterly messed-up world;

3. It is not that Srinagar has been destroyed by the fighting, as Beirut was in the 1970s and Kabul in the 1980s. There is no damage from heavy weapons. The rising or ``militancy`` as the Indians call it, was fought with knives, pistols, Chinese and Russian automatic rifles supplied from Pakistan and the weapons bazaars of the Afghan border, grenades and the home-made fused bombs known in the subcontinent as improvised explosive devices. It was put down with clubs, money and standard -issue carbines. The Indian Air Force never deployed an armed helicopter, and the airplanes from Delhi come in low over the valley as if the Stinger missile had never been invented or deployed in Afghanistan. What makes Srinagar unrecognizable is its loss of function.

4. The cricket pitches, houseboats, temples, Mogul gardens, shawl and papier-mâché shops that jolt past the window of the car stand idle or have been converted to military use….The streets and bridges are quite empty but for army patrols and Indian reporters in collapsing Ambassadors, morosely looking for trouble. It is as if the uprising has killed the entire population; or rather has sent the people burrowing into their houses, to sit all day on the floor, smoking and eating too much and trying not to think. Only the houseboat wallahs are out: so sleek and fat on my earlier visits, they have shed their weight and confidence and hang about the ghats, unshaven, poor as rats; or squabble over two European hippies, so closed off in their morphine and daily economies that they have nodded out a civil war.

5. The world I inhabited has vanished: the state government and the political class, the rule of law, almost all the 95,000 Hindu inhabitants of the valley, alcohol, cinemas, cricket matches, picnics by moonlight in the saffron fields, schools, universities, an independent press, tourists - and my chief problem -banks. In this reduction of civilian reality, the sights of Kashmir - the things worth seeing, in guidebook language - are redefined: not the filthy lake and Mogul gardens with their busted fountains, or the storied triumphs of Kashmiri agriculture, handicrafts and cookery, but two entities that confront each other without intermediary: the mosque and the army camp.

6. Waiting in the courtyard, while the worshippers scampered towards the gate, wer4 frisked, slid off their shoes, turned west, spread their rugs and bent to their prayers, I was startled by the good nature of the police around me. Then a word burst from the mosque public address system: azadi. It dissolved in a howl of sound, and as the police ran to the gate , their carbines jingling on their hips , it seemed to me the word had been ripped from the body of the speaker and still traveled through the air, over the lake to beat itself against the mountain wall, over and over again. Moments later a man called Javed Mir, famous in Kashmir, was dragged past me in the courtyard by six plain-clothes coppers, his slippers catching on the stones. Javed`s face had the self-absorption of a man who has been in jail a lot and is going back there, but the rest was comedy; and it occurred to me that when you want to destroy a people`s will you make them and their beliefs, in this case azadi, comical.

7. The rigging of the 1987 election convinced my son and his friends that there was no alternative to armed struggle, which they felt was the only way for Kashmiris to recover their right of an honorable and peaceful existence in an independent state. They were convinced that election and personal politics were no longer a solution. They knew it was impossible to fight India. They were doubly sure of the might of the Indian Republic and their own meager resources, but they were also sure their sacrifices would revive the dead Kashmiri issue in International forums. I am proud that their sacrifices were not wholly in vain.

8. The Garden of the Kashmiri Martyrs , as it is known, is a raised cemetery, planted with dwarf cypresses, gladioli, irises, and roses. There are about 400 graves, with headstones to record the name, place of residence, educational achievements and place of death of the martyr or myrtyress….In these graves, you can read the story of the Kashmiri uprising in a quarter of an hour….there are many women and children, evidence of the ham-fistedness of the Indian response. All around you, the Muslim middle class is being thinned out, individual by individual: surgeons, lawyers, journalists. What begins as a call to arms passes through a fantasy of victory and ends in inconsolable defeat.

9. Colonel Ravi said: ``I would say there are some 2200 militants still active, of which about a thousand are foreigners of some sort or other, Afghans, Sudanese and so on. Bear in mind these fellows aren`t the LTTE [Tamil tigers in northern Sri Lanka] who read army manual, and because soldiers are trained to take cover behind a tree or culvert when fired upon, put the improvised explosive devices in there. I have served in the Nagaland, Mizoram and Punjab; and our experience is that these militancies last about ten years before they exhaust themselves, so this problem still has a year or two to run before the Kashmiris are tired out. The particular problem is the border with Pakistan. It is difficult terrain and thus has to be manned, it can`t be fenced or controlled electronically. We can`t totally seal it off against infiltration.``

10. (Colonel Ravi)…Then he began to speak of his life and work, of the wife he never saw and the children who`d grown up without him, and how in the Mizo Hills, the people walked singing to their fields at dawn and returned singing at dusk. He seemed to me to have given his life to his country, or to an idea of it…..I sensed that he did not want to be remembered only for that freezing morning in early January 1993, when his men burn`t the bazaar in Sopore and killed fifty-four shopkeepers and their families…

11. Noor ul-Hassan, a former forester now active for human rights, ranged over all recorded history to show that the valley had never been ruled by Hindus from Delhi. On better days, those roots go down only as far back as 1846, when the British sold the present State of Jammu and Kashmir, plus some other pieces now occupied by the Pakistanis or the Chinese, to a Hindu soldier called Gulab Singh for 750,000 pounds down, a horse, twelve goats and six pairs of shawls in tribute each year. That a Muslim people had been sold to a Hindu ruler was not at the time considered reprehensible, though the British came, for reasons of strategy and even conscience, to regret it. The British mostly left the valley to be maladministered by its maharajas, content with sport and houseboat honeymoons…non-Kashmiris weren`t permitted to own land or houses in the valley….and with destroying the shawl trade through cheap Glasgow imitations.

12. One can spend so long in 1947 that, stepping outside, you see the place transformed in the autumnal air, and to think to hear the Dakotas rumbling overhead…with just twenty men in each…and see the maharaja`s motorcade, he in the first car, driving, with his Russian jeweller, Victor Rosenthal, beside him, the ladies in several cars behind, winding its bumpy way up over the Banihal Pass…the tunnel wasn`t yet built…towards safety and oblivion. According to Karan Singh, the maharaja was silent all the forty- eight-hour journey till, arriving at the palace at Jammu, and turning to Rosenthal, he said:``We have lost Kashmir.``

13. Thus, for the Kashmiri Muslims, Jammu and Kashmir, the only state in the Indian Union where the Muslims are majority, has been cheated by successive Indian administerations of the self determination promised by the founders of the Constitution…Kashmiri elections have never done Indian democracy proud, and those held in 1996 were unlikely to be exceptions….The village women, shrieking with excitement and rage, said the army had arrived at 6:00 a.m., called the men out of their houses by loudspeaker, and sent them down to the polling station. They had threatened, the women said, to cut off any hand that didn`t display the indelible mark painted by Indian polling officers on the index finger. (I heard the charge often in the course of the day, but never saw such amputation.). Latter, in the Khwaja Bazaar district of Srinagar, a BSF sergeant, carrying a side arm, bawled at group of men: ``Come to the Motherland polling booth. There is nothing to fear. The Motherland will protect you. Now come on, move along, Move!`` Among scores of Kashmiris I met that day, only two elderly men said they voted willingly. That evening, at the J&K Tourism Center, the chief secretary held a press conference. He announced that the turnout in that Srinagar constituency had been twenty-five percent, including postal votes…a blatant fantasy.

14. Indian officials like to talk of the valley as ``alienated`` from Indian rule, a euphemism that does not begin to describe the mental condition of the Kashmiris. They are in shock. They simply cannot believe that between 14,000 and 20,000 people have died just to return the valley to the situation that existed before 1990: to Farooq Abdullah and the professional politicians of the National Conference. They cannot understand why the world has ignored them.

Gowardhan,

Go get a life. If I started posting the stuff I have on India, your friends will start screaming...

Concern yourself with your own country. Why are you so obsessed with Pakistan?

70000 + 2 killed in Kashmir

http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/08/welcome.htm

Grenade kills woman in Kashmir, wounds child: SRINAGAR, Nov 08:

A woman was killed and five others, including a one-year-old child, were wounded today when Mujahideen threw a grenade in a street in Srinagar, police said. No group has claimed responsibility for the attack. (Reuters) (Posted @ 12:45 PST)

Zico: ``Can you tell the difference between allegory and endorsement?``

I think I understand now. This whore allegory seems to be quite popular in India, what with some minister talking about India gyrating her hips to be taken up by the US. So does that make India the whore that never made it.. the whore tempting Big Daddy to put her on the streets because she can do a better job than the other whore. Let me know if I`m getting this allegory right. Who knows if Pakistan the whore doesn`t do a good job, India the whore might get her chane to `work the streets`.

In truth, I think its a crude & rude allegory. But hey, if it helps you understand stuff better- all power to you. A final point since India is bigger than Pakistan does that necessarily make her a better whore ?

Thanks.

TALIBAN ARE OUR CHILDREN - ISI CHIEF

Indians Have Taken Over Makkah Madina

Ylh claims Indians are spoiling Pakistani image by telling the truth about Pakistan.

http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/07/top18.htm

Riyadh recognized Taliban govt on Islamabad`s advice: Prince Turki

By Our Correspondent

RIYADH, Nov 6: Former Saudi intelligence chief Prince Turki Al-Faisal, who remained deeply involved in the Afghanistan issue for almost 25 years, ever since the Soviet invasion, told the local Saudi daily Arab News that Saudi Arabia had recognized the Taliban government in 1997 `` on the advice of our Pakistani brothers.``

In the third part of an exclusive interview jointly conducted by Arab News and the MBC Television, carried on Tuesday, Prince Turki said the former Pakistani interior minister Naseerullah Babar had introduced the Taliban in an interesting way. ``He had said they are my children.``

Recognizing the Taliban regime was a hasty decision, he said. One of the reasons`` why we recognized the Taliban government was the agreement between the Kingdom and Pakistan since the time of President Zia-ul-Haq on consulting and coordinating on all matters concerning Afghanistan. It was a result of this agreement and the advice of our Pakistani brothers that we recognized the Taliban.``

Further, until ``that time the Taliban had not created any controversy. It was controlling 95 per cent of the territory when the Kingdom accorded recognition to the Taliban regime in 1997. It was also providing security and stability in the region. We recognized them several months after they captured Kabul.``

During the interview the prince confirmed that Sudan, at one time, had agreed to hand over Osama Bin Laden to the Kingdom before he returned to Afghanistan in 1996. ``Pesident Bashir (of Sudan) had asked for guarantees that Osama would not be prosecuted.

The prince said Bashir was told that no one was above the law and that`` we could not give any such guarantees.`` He also hinted that, at a point in time, Mulla Omar had also given positive signals to the Saudi demand that Osama be handed over to the Saudi government.

In his first of the two meetings with Mulla Omar, Dr Abdullah Al-Turki, the current secretary general of the Muslim World League, had also accompanied the prince. `` Mulla Omar did not object to Sheikh Al-Turki`s arguments on the extradition of the Al-Qaeda chief to the Kingdom and I thought he agreed with Al-Turki`s arguments on the basis of Shariat. At the second meeting,after the US embassy bombings in Africa, however, Mulla Omar was not in a mood to listen to any one,`` the prince said.

He could not recall Mulla Omar`s exact words, except that he had used an abusive language to criticize the Kingdom`s leadership during the meeting.

Prince Turki pointed out that after the Russian withdrawal, the United States` interest in Afghanistan had dwindled. However, he said, the US wanted to see some sort of stability in the region. It kept monitoring the activities of the oil companies which were working for establishing a gas pipeline from Turkmenistan to the Arabian Sea through Afghanistan and Pakistan, he added.

``There were only three choices: the pipeline could either go through Russia, but the Caucasus mountains and the Chechen crisis obstructed the project; or through Iran to Bandar Abbas. But the American firms were banned by the US administration from operating in Iran. So the only viable option left was through the war-torn Afghanistan.``

The prince hinted (that in order to secure support for the pipeline project) some of the oil companies might have even provided funds to the Taliban regime. `` These (oil) companies had contacted the Taliban and I cannot rule out that they had offered their support to the Taliban. In such cases, the assistance could have been in millions or in the form of a promise,`` he added.

#179

ZICO

``[............A perfect analogy for the relationship between Big Daddy Uncle Sam and the land of the pure right now.

Can you tell the difference between allegory and endorsement?``]



Zico

If you want to ALLEGORISE ``the relation`` as such ,

Soviet Union ,since 50s has been Indias pimp & `lover `from Bul Ganin to PUtin ,only that now Indian are jelous of Pakistan (the insignificant doomed state according to hindians) is getting all the attention.

Indians have performed major `blow job ` for the Russians in Chekoslovakia Invasion in `68 when despite its fake rhetoric of Gandhism,PROSTITUTED ITSELF TO NOT CONDEMN THAT ACT ,Why?

On the topic of whores:

Who was it who made the allegory of India gyrating like a tawaif for the US attention?

`- Did you not know that Pakistan IS Islam? Dont say silly things dude.`

DUDE ... frankly Why is that so, I dont understand that. But you know what I dont have a problem with that.. I am honored..... but what about the Muslims in India... Are they all Pakistanis then? Because they are not! Then are they all Indians? but then Pakistan is Islam and Islam is Pakistan ? so then by your logic Indian Muslims are not Indians.. and since you keep writing `India/Hindus` when I havent once used India/Hindus together, it shows that to your mind India and Hinduism is inseparable, which indeed is the true basis of the Pakistani demand anyway.

It is ironic that we in `Muslim` Pakistan are thinking in terms of Pakistan and India, while you in the official `secular` India are still thinking in terms of `Hindu vs Muslim` ...a conflict which might be valid within India, but is of no major importance to us Pakistanis. Perhaps because no fundamentalist party has ever won power in Pakistan, but in Secular India a Hindu fundamentalist party is ruling.

Your entire argument is muddled, and it is this muddles argument which makes plain why India is a Hindu country and shall remain one forever.

-YLH

Zico

You might be an exception, but what was up with the `fake` hijacking recently. How can be one so confused that rumors of `Two men speaking little English demanding to go to Lahore come up?`

Time to admit your mistakes... I admit ours in Afghanistan...

Indians have been going beserk where they shouldnt have. There was a protest rally against Oprah Winfrey recently... can you believe that.

You people have waged a propaganda war and if you deny that, then I am sorry, you are just denying the truth.

-YLH

Rsaxena

`because they are interchangeable..pakistan was born of the TNT for a bunch of muslims...it is called the ``Islamic Republic of Pakistan``...can`t see the obvious...loser`

Forgive me if I am wrong dear Saxena, but wasnt your premise that TNT is invalid and that is why Pakistan shouldnt be created. Whatever your understanding of the Pakistan Movement (though far from the intellectual truth and based on simplistic biases) you yourself admit that TNT was accepted by only a bunch of Muslims (let us forget that these were former Indian nationalists who had stood alongside the Hindus prior to the rift and that those who were against the TNT were religiously oriented elements which had gained popularity through Khilafat movement.. Let us forget this for a meoment) ... But what about the Muslims in India?

By using Pakistan and Islam interchangeably, arent you alienating them? As for Pakistan being the `Islamic` republic, how much do you think that is true ... even India calls itself secular doesnt it?

My concern is for Pakistan. I dont care one way or the other if Pakistan is interchangeable with Islam, it is a Predominantly Muslim nation and we are certainly proud of that. I am trying to point out the flaw in your argument.. and demonstrating why `TNT` was a fact that was forced on us in the first place.

-YLH

Scout;

{Why do Indians throw hissy fits when they find Pakistan in a positive limelight, or for that matter, any limelight}

You are the only one throwing hissy fits here.

Stick to reading David Duke and ``The Protocols of the Elders of Zion``.

ylh:

{As for Pakistan, you people have done a good job destroying our image}

-ylh, India has done nothing to destroy your image. The whole world has been examining with a magnifying glass the cosy relationship between the Pakistani military and the Taliban. The whole world is listening to Pakistanis posit the theory that the Jews were responsible for September 11th. The media of the western world has put down in black and white print the links between the ISI, Taliban, Harkat-ul-Mujahedeen and Jaish-e-Mohammed. I understand it is a reflexive action for a Pakistani to put his head in the sand and deny these things, but in that respect you are standing naked before the world, there is no point in denying it.

Did India/Hindus make you seek strategic depth in Afghanistan?

Did India/Hindus make you raise the Taliban?

Did India/Hindus cause every woe in Pakistani society?

{We will win the hearts and minds, because unlike you and your kind we are not lying. Our people are honest and sincere}

- Yes, of course you are ;-)

{In any event enjoy your moment of glory while you can}

- It is not a ``moment of glory`` for India. It is a moment or realisation for the whole world.

{1) PAKISTAN will NOT destabilize.}

- I hope and pray it does not. I dont want the psychos with beards replacing the psychos in Khaki. Trust me. We just want your country to stop playing with the Jihad fire. Your nation has spent the last 20 years playing ``bleed India with a thousand cuts`` as a matter of covert state policy. It led to the creation of Taliban, and has radicalised sections of Paki society to the extent that Ismaili doctors are shot in the head in Karachi with depressing regularity.

{it is perfectly clear that India will go as far as to sabotage the entire effort in order to destroy Pakistan}

- No it is not. India will get her pound of flesh, her cut of the cake, as every nation is going to. Dont expect India to blow kisses to Pakistan because of this.

{As for Pakistan and the US, the re vitalization of the Cold war ties, resumption of joint training, and Pakistan`s re-entry into the Western Weapons markets is here}

- ylh, quit looking for a Sugar Daddy. Stand on your own two feet. At the very least have some self dignity. The betrayal of the Taleban and the abandonment of the central plank of your nations foreign policy for the last decade was achieved in the space of one telephone converation. Think how humiliating that is.

{So dream on dreamer, cuz we will persevere, and we will exist till eternity God willing

Long Live Pakistan}

- Pakistan has a long life. I hope so.

{Why do you keep using Islam and Pakistan interchangeably}

- Did you not know that Pakistan IS Islam? Dont say silly things dude.

Karakoram:

{Is that how you treat whores. Whores are people too, ok ? At most you would not pay them if they refuse to oblige.. but slapping is just plain wrong. You are scum.}

Karakoram, calm down. Pimps are misogynistic brutes. They keep their women in line through violence. It is an exploitative relationship between a bully and a weakling with no self esteem. A perfect analogy for the relationship between Big Daddy Uncle Sam and the land of the pure right now.

Can you tell the difference between allegory and endorsement?

Re; ylh

``Why do you keep using Islam and Pakistan interchangeably.``

because they are interchangeable..pakistan was born of the TNT for a bunch of muslims...it is called the ``Islamic Republic of Pakistan``...can`t see the obvious...loser