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November 16, 2001

Terrorist Sponsors: Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, China

by Ted Galen Carpenter

http://www.cato.org/dailys/11-16-01.html

Ted Galen Carpenter is vice president for defense and foreign policy studies at the Cato Institute and is the author or editor of 13 books on international affairs.

The United States has assembled a superficially impressive international coalition against the threat of terrorism. Many countries in that coalition, however, contribute little of significance to the fight. Even worse, the willingness of some members of the coalition to actually combat terrorism is doubtful. Indeed, given their record, some of those countries appear to be part of the problem, not part of the solution. That concern is especially acute with respect to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and China.

Saudi Arabia enlisted in the fight against terrorism only in response to intense pressure from the United States following the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Even then, its cooperation has been minimal and grudging. For example, Riyadh has resisted Washington`s requests to use its bases in Saudi Arabia for military operations against Osama bin Laden`s terrorist facilities in Afghanistan.

Even that belated, tepid participation is an improvement on Saudi Arabia`s previous conduct. The U.S. government has warned that it will treat regimes that harbor or assist terrorist organizations the same way that it treats the organizations themselves. Yet if Washington is serious about that policy, it ought to regard Saudi Arabia as a prime sponsor of international terrorism. Indeed, that country should have been included for years on the U.S. State Department`s annual list of governments guilty of sponsoring terrorism.

The Saudi government has been the principal financial backer of Afghanistan` s odious Taliban movement since at least 1996. It has also channeled funds to Hamas and other groups that have committed terrorist acts in Israel and other portions of the Middle East.

Worst of all, the Saudi monarchy has funded dubious schools and ``charities`` throughout the Islamic world. Those organizations have been hotbeds of anti-Western, and especially, anti-American, indoctrination. The schools, for example, not only indoctrinate students in a virulent and extreme form of Islam, but also teach them to hate secular Western values.

They are also taught that the United States is the center of infidel power in the world and is the enemy of Islam. Graduates of those schools are frequently recruits for Bin Laden`s Al-Qaeda terror network as well as other extremist groups.

Pakistan`s guilt is nearly as great as Saudi Arabia`s. Without the active support of the government in Islamabad, it is doubtful whether the Taliban could ever have come to power in Afghanistan. Pakistani authorities helped fund the militia and equip it with military hardware during the mid-1990s when the Taliban was merely one of several competing factions in Afghanistan`s civil war. Only when the United States exerted enormous diplomatic pressure after the Sept. 11 attacks did Islamabad begin to sever its political and financial ties with the Taliban. Even now it is not certain that key members of Pakistan`s intelligence service have repudiated their Taliban clients.

Afghanistan is not the only place where Pakistani leaders have flirted with terrorist clients. Pakistan has also assisted rebel forces in Kashmir even though those groups have committed terrorist acts against civilians. And it should be noted that a disproportionate number of the extremist madrasas schools funded by the Saudis operate in Pakistan.

China`s offenses have been milder and more indirect than those of Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Nevertheless, Beijing`s actions raise serious questions about whether its professed commitment to the campaign against international terrorism is genuine. For years, China has exported sensitive military technology to countries that have been sponsors of terrorism. Recipients of such sales include Iran, Iraq and Syria.

Even though Chinese leaders now say that they support the U.S.-led effort against terrorism, there is no evidence that Beijing is prepared to end its inappropriate exports. At the recent APEC summit, China`s President Jiang Zemin was notably noncommittal when President Bush sought such a commitment. Whenever the United States has brought up the exports issue, Chinese officials have sought to link a cutoff to a similar cutoff of U.S. military sales to Taiwan -- something that is unacceptable to Washington.

It is time for China, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia to prove by their deeds, not just their words, that they are serious about contributing to the campaign against international terrorism. In China`s case, that means ending all militarily relevant exports to regimes that have sponsored terrorism. In the cases of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, it means defunding terrorist organizations and the extremist ``schools`` that provide them with recruits. It also means severing ties with such terrorist movements as the Taliban and the Kashmiri insurgents. The world is watching the actions of all three countries.

Ref spout #: 222

[I realized that after sharing two posts with him on another board. Maybe he`s the reincarnation of harimau.]

No, Harimau is unique.

How about refuting historical facts posted by me or answering logically my conclusions and opinions? I don`t see you doing that.

Re : Zico reply #120

Ladies and gentlemen Chowkies,

I hereby rest my case, with a strong appeal to the sane onboard to ignore Mr Zico`s moronic attempts at being witty and worldly wise. Clearly he lacks at being both.

Regards

Asim

RE: Reply #: 219 Prem

``Like all of us men with good sexual appetite, the US is always looking for new and better condoms. Both India and Pakistan should keep that fact in mind.``

I concur. Post Sept 11th, I thought that Maharaja Jaswant Singh`s hips would fly off (to use Arundathi Roy`s allegory) as he performed his dance in front of the U.S.. Looks like sanity has returned to South Block with the military activity in Kashmir after the Legislative Assembly bombing putting Americans on notice that, Afghanistan or no Afghanistan, India`s interests will be paramount in it`s dealings with the U.S..

Asim Hayat #209, ``Must a certified lunatic such as Zico be replied to, on every single one of his tantrums and vagaries. I think not! I would rather ignore the innocuous buffoon and just read his posts for their sheer amusement value if not for any factual or informational content. I suggest you do the same! and save your breath for people who can think beyond their own nose.``

I realized that after sharing two posts with him on another board. Maybe he`s the reincarnation of harimau.

ylh;

{That was part of another debate. Your post is based on your own assumptions... and it doesnt stand valid}

- My posts stand as shining pillars in a sea of....well, whatever.

Asim Hayat;

Oh dear, have I upset a poor little Pakistani-wani like you? Good.

{Must a certified lunatic such as Zico be replied to, on every single one of his tantrums and vagaries}

- Stop whinging.

{I would rather ignore the innocuous buffoon}

- Errrr, like just writing about me? That means I am not innocuous, and it makes you the buffoon.

;-)

touche

re: tvarad # 211

Like all of us men with good sexual appetite, the US is always looking for new and better condoms. Both India and Pakistan should keep that fact in mind.

`We are obviously debating at cross wires. Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan is 60 years dead. I am sorry for any unwarranted assumptions I made about your political stance but my posts stay valid. Thanks for the debate.`

That was part of another debate. Your post is based on your own assumptions... and it doesnt stand valid.

For Tvarad:

Political Opportunism, Taliban, Frontier Gandhi, and the Nationalist Ulema:

As for political opportunism, what would one say of Frontier Gandhi who was all about Political opportunism, first in his alliance with Gandhi and then when he saw Congress being defeated he quickly switched over to Militant Pushtun Nationalism....

Had the `frontier Gandhi` the selfless politician, not gone from all inclusive goody goody `we are children of the same god` uh huh humanity love love peace peace Indian Nationalism to extremely exclusive Pushtun Nationalism ... one would say he was honest, but he just wanted political power, as was obvious by his brother`s shameless actions in NWFP legislature when after losing the Majority he still wanted to cling on to the Power...

Taliban are the true inheritors of the legacy `Nationalist` `Selfless` ulema and frontier Gandhi... Taliban are the Deobandis, and Deobandi Conference of India was totally allied with the Congress and against Jinnah, and Taliban are Pushtun Nationalists... just like Frontier Gandhi.... Ironic isnt it that the Dehli Imam, a rabidly anti-Pakistan figure, would now speak so loudly for the Taliban? Ironically enough the JUI of Pakistan also broke off from the same deobandi group the Deobandi Conference and now they are calling for the end of Pakistan and its amalgamation into the Islamic khilafat under the leadership of Amir ul momineen Mullah Umar, and his naib ameer, Ossama Bin laden....

So my very simple question is ...

The world is pitted against two things now in form of the Taliban:

1) Deobandi Fundamentalism

2) Pushtun Nationalism

What is the historic role of these two forces in the history of the subcontinent... both Deobandi Fundamentalism (Nationalist Ulema, Jamiat e Ulema e Hind, Deobandi Conference) and Pushtun Nationalism (The `Selfless` Frontier Gandhi) were allied with the Congress Party and opposed to very creation of Pakistan... Is it any wonder that the Taliban refused to sign treaties in the same room as Jinnah`s picture?

As for Frontier Gandhi`s party, it has opposed everything progressive in Pakistan... from honor killings, to most recently opposition to women`s participation in election process in the districts of Dir and Malakand...

TIME TO GIVE UP SIMPLISTIC NOTIONS, AND TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE COMPLEXITIES OF HISTORY!

PS: BR Ambedkar said in his book Pakistan or Partition of India:

`There is no politician who is more fitting of the title incorruptible than Mr Jinnah in India.`

Similar assessments were made by Gandhi, Beverley Nichols, H V Hodson, Sarat Chanderbose, etc

-YLH

`Maybe they foresaw (as did the Frontier Gandhi who you also allude to) a state built on opportunism rather than idealism, a state built on exclusivity rather than inclusiveness, an illogical state (if it is a homeland for sub-continental Muslims then why are there more of them outside it?). You get the idea.`

Yup and that is why after the creation of Pakistan they came clamoring in, and are now the frontline defenders of what they perceive the Pakistani ideology to be. I dont understand the Indian arguments... they are based too much on simplistic notions of History than truth.

Majlis e Ahrar had tried twice to align themselves with the Muslim League, but Jinnah due to his personal distaste for the fundoos refused to let them in.

In any event your `Idealistic` Islamic fundamentalits put forth the following arguments for their opposition of Pakistan:

1) Jinnah drinks and eats pork.

2) Jinnah married a parsi girl

3) Jinnah and the AIML leaders like Mustapha Kemal.

4) Jinnah and the Muslim League are like Muslim Zionists, they dont want an Islamic state.

As for your opportunistic part, this is a constant theme I suppose of the Indians, but atleast all mature Indian Historians maintain that Jinnah was above opportunism, greed, and personal gain... he was `incorruptible and brave` as your Mahatma said... And almost all of his political opponents had the same views about him ... I can give the proper quotes to you if you want!

-YLH

Great speech by Musharraf at the UN. He said all the right things. My advice to Benazir Bhutto would be to express her support for Musharraf at this critical time in Pakistan`s history.


RE: Reply #: 209 Asim Hayat wrote:

``People! would you stop bickering and concentrate on the business at hand. Those with existensial memories should barely recall that the discussion was revolving around the Benazir-Nama written by Mr Ras. Siddique, Madame`s official spokesperson in the bay area. :)``


Thanks for the promotion Asim. But little do
you know that I have been one of a handful of UNOFFICIAL spokespersons on behalf of PAKISTAN in the Bay Area (and beyond) for several years now.
These days I am somewhat bullish on Musharraf and
would like to see him get all the help that
he can within Pakistan and from Pakistani-Americans.
This is a first for me (supporting the Pakistan
Military, but I believe that The Musharraf Group
in Pakistan has embarked on a damage control mission. I wish them luck, because they
sure need it.

Ras

PS: Let us hope that Pakistani Bay Area Chowkies can try to make it to the first O P E N meeting
in the Bay Area on Tuesday night.

look who`s invited to Washington...amazing...

``US to invite Advani to

discuss terrorism

In a major step forward in bilateral relations, India and the US have decided to intensify cooperation in counter-terrorism moves and expand defence and economic ties.

As part of high-level exchanges, the Bush administration is inviting Home Minister Lal Kishenchand Advani to Washington for discussions on enhanced cooperation in anti-terrorism measures, US Ambassador to India Robert Blackwill told PTI over telephone from Boston.``

RE: Reply #: 205 ylh

``To cut the long story short, if Pakistan and Islam are interchangeable why were the Deobani Ulema (the fore runner of the Taliban movement) against the creation of Pakistan? Why was Majlis e Ahrar allied with the Congress? Why was Jamaat e Islami bitterly opposed to Jinnah? Why did the Ulema call Jinnah `Kafir e Azam` and Pakistan `Kafiristan`?``

Maybe they foresaw (as did the Frontier Gandhi who you also allude to) a state built on opportunism rather than idealism, a state built on exclusivity rather than inclusiveness, an illogical state (if it is a homeland for sub-continental Muslims then why are there more of them outside it?). You get the idea.

And history has proved them right since it`s elite has consistently sacrificed the future of it`s citizenry to satiate it`s gluttony and made the country nothing more than a condom for the United States.

ylh;

We are obviously debating at cross wires. Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan is 60 years dead. I am sorry for any unwarranted assumptions I made about your political stance but my posts stay valid. Thanks for the debate.

;-)

Ylh,

Must a certified lunatic such as Zico be replied to, on every single one of his tantrums and vagaries. I think not! I would rather ignore the innocuous buffoon and just read his posts for their sheer amusement value if not for any factual or informational content. I suggest you do the same! and save your breath for people who can think beyond their own nose.

People! would you stop bickering and concentrate on the business at hand. Those with existensial memories should barely recall that the discussion was revolving around the Benazir-Nama written by Mr Ras. Siddique, Madame`s official spokesperson in the bay area. :)

Mille Grazie,

Asim

````Like the whose eye was taken out by Odysseus, the US is going about like a wounded giant and will not be appeased unless it has had its revenge```` (Ayaz Amir quoed by Zico)

One Cyclop Mulla deserves another Cyclop Polyphemus -- this time this Odorous Odysseus with his companions will be vaporized in their caves.

Bombings WILL continue in Holy Ramadan.

Ayaz Amir should not fret -- it may turn out to be a blessing for the barbarian Afghans -- look what happened to the Japanese Odius Odysseus who tried to poke the Giants`s eye -- in Pearl Harbor!!

And finally this gem:



Zico

ylh;

{but what about the Muslims in India... Are they all Pakistanis then? Because they are not! Then are they all Indians? but then Pakistan is Islam and Islam is Pakistan ? so then by your logic Indian Muslims are not Indians}

-That is right ylh, none of Pakistans foreign policies towards India and the world have been guided by the principles of fighting for Islam, Hindu is not a dirty word in Pakistan.`



Ah Pakistan again... the question was not about Pakistan but Indian Muslims... Again like I have said repeatedly I have no problem if people want to associate Pakistan with Islam.

Ah but poor Pakistan obsessed minds!

-YLH

`Seriously dude, tell that to the people in Peshawar,`

But I thought the people of Peshawar were the staunch followers of Frontier Gandhi and the Congress Party? Again I am confused.

Zico,

I was showing how convoluted your logic was. Custodians of Islam or not, we are not debating that. I am a Pakistani, and I am concerned about Pakistan and Pakistan alone. I have no problem with anyone associating Pakistan with Islam, but I think it is a tad bit hypocritical when it comes from people like you who otherwise lay some lofty claims to secularism.

Whatever your assumptions about our perceptions, the truth is that there is no Pakistani in Pakistan who faults Bangladeshis for breaking away. Similarly there is no effort on the part of Pakistanis to reunify Bangladesh with the Union. The `betrayal of Islam` is in Indian imaginations and a Hindu psyche which saw its victory over Pakistan to be hinduism`s great blow to Islam.

You are absolutely right we view India to be Hindu India and hence a threat to Islam but on the question of Pakistan being the representative of Islam, the opinion is mixed. Our whole premise for breaking away logically is that India is Hindu India... so logically it wouldnt make sense for Pakistan to be Islamic Pakistan, but then `Chamberlainism` that Pakistan`s elite has shown knows no boundaries and hence we have the Islamic republic.

To cut the long story short, if Pakistan and Islam are interchangeable why were the Deobani Ulema (the fore runner of the Taliban movement) against the creation of Pakistan? Why was Majlis e Ahrar allied with the Congress? Why was Jamaat e Islami bitterly opposed to Jinnah? Why did the Ulema call Jinnah `Kafir e Azam` and Pakistan `Kafiristan`?

Isnt it ironic that those who didnot participate in the Pan Islamic Khilafat Movement were in the forefronts of the Pakistan Movement.

Your simplistic notions and naive ideas fall apart Zico.

Here is a gem from Ayaz Amirs latest column in the Dawn. I dont always agree with him, but his erudition and eloquency and prose are superb. Dropping Classical Greek mythological references in, what a guy!

..................................................

``Like the Cyclops Polyphemus whose eye was taken out by Odysseus, the US is going about like a wounded giant and will not be appeased unless it has had its revenge``

..................................................

Superb!

;-)

Karakoram;

{This whore allegory seems to be quite popular in India, what with some minister talking about India gyrating her hips to be taken up by the US}

- It was Arundhati Roy the writer. I think she was right. I agree with her.

{Let me know if I`m getting this allegory right}

-You are getting it wrong. America is a bully and wherever she stations her planes and canons ends up in a mess.

{Who knows if Pakistan the whore doesn`t do a good job, India the whore might get her chane to `work the streets`}

-No, Pakistan is doing a good job for now, and she is getting paid very well. What it means for her long term sexual health....lets see. Not a good record so far. Last encounter you had she left you with Kalashnikov culture and highest heroin addiction rate in Asia, and an instinctively moderate society blighted by fundos.

{A final point since India is bigger than Pakistan does that necessarily make her a better whore ?}

- India is actually just a prick-tease. Richard Nixon called Indira a ``b1tch`` and ``whore`` in 1972 when they sailed the seventh fleet into the Bay of Bengal, huffing and puffing unsuccesfully. The Russians left with just a little foreplay, and no full consummation. You on the other hand paid China to do the dirty with a slice of Kashmir, let the Arabs do it for free, and the Americans, well they roll in whenever they feel horny.

Dont get me wrong, I feel sorry for the predicament Pakistan finds itself in, and it is all detrimental to India in the long run. But what can I say? Ok, theek hai, we are all whores. Hope that blunts your anger.

ylh;

{but what about the Muslims in India... Are they all Pakistanis then? Because they are not! Then are they all Indians? but then Pakistan is Islam and Islam is Pakistan ? so then by your logic Indian Muslims are not Indians}

-That is right ylh, none of Pakistans foreign policies towards India and the world have been guided by the principles of fighting for Islam, Hindu is not a dirty word in Pakistan.

Your convoluted response was quite bewildering, I am sure it had an internal logic, but it escapes me entirely.

Seriously dude, tell that to the people in Peshawar, tell it to the ISI, Musharaff et al, that Pakistan is not Islam. The opinion formers, the Maulvis, the Cambridge intellectuals who hate India, the frustrated Mughals, the whole ``not India (read Hindu) paradigm in Pakistan. I would say that Huntingtons Clash of Civilisations theory has been common currency in Pakistani society for a long time viv-a-vis ``Hindu`` India.

My point was about how Pakistan and its institutions and policies are guided by the perception (self proclaimed) that it is the keeper of the flame of Islam on the sub-continent. This is the reasoning that saw Bangladesh as a betrayal of Islam and an act of apostasy, and fuels your faux concern for the Muslims of India and your el-dorado, Kashmir. In all seriousness, lets not be cute about this?

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Killing American troops is `sawab`

Quoted in Ausaf, Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani of JUP said that all Pakistanis who see American troops anywhere should immediately kill them. If they do so, they will be given sawab (divine reward). He said that this activity of killing the Americans was made farz (duty) by Allah of which he had knowledge. He said in the 12th century AD, Salahuddin Ayubi was Islam`s hero; today it was Osama bin Laden.

Aitchisonians condemn America!

Editor Hamid Mir of Ausaf wrote in his column that CNN reporter Christiane Amanpour was greatly disabused when she interviewed children from Aitchison College Lahore and heard them say that America was unreliable and had eaten up Pakistan`s money which it had paid for the F-16s. They said they condemned the 11 September attack but would condemn Osama bin Laden only when they saw the proof that he had been guilty. The editor asked General Musharraf to add the boys to the 10 percent extremists who oppose him.

Jaish changes name!

According to Ausaf banned organisation Jaish-e-Muhammad led by Osama`s associate Maulana Masood Azhar had changed its name to Tahreekul Furqan. Jaish was created out of Harkat al-Mujahideen which was earlier Harkatul Ansar but was declared terrorist by the United States. Maulana Masood Azhar will be convener of the Tahreekul Furqan while the most powerful Deobandi cleric Mufti Shamzai will be its patron. The change of name was carried out because of the fear that Pakistan would confiscate the accounts of Jaish after Washington declared it terrorist.

Historian gets it wrong!

Famous historian Dr Safdar Mehmood writing in Jang said that an Indian patriot killed the butcher of Jallianwala Bagh, General Dyer, in Britain and was called a terrorist by the British government although for the Indian masses he was a hero. The truth is that Udham Singh did not assassinate General Reginald Dyer in London many years after his killing of hundreds of innocent people in Amritsar. Dyer had meanwhile died as a consequence of high blood pressure. The man Udham Singh killed was Sir Michael O`Dwyer who was governor of Punjab at the time his corps commander Julundhar, Dyer, did his sorry deed in Jallianwala Bagh.

Ads with women not allowed!

According to Khabrain, during a pro-Taliban protest march in Lahore, the processionists blacked out all the women on the hoardings on the city roads with paint and wrote Jehad Jamaat Islami on top to show their anger at the use of women in fuhush (obscene) advertisements.

He is mine!

According to Khabrain, poetess Rukhsana Nazi said that politician Malik Ghulam Mustafa Khar was a charming person who could possess any woman he liked. She said that once when he gave her his calling card another woman started fighting with her saying, `He is mine`.

Bush will leave office!

Daily Khabrain quoted a number of astrologers, including a lady called M.M. Bengalan, as saying that Osama would attack America next year too and that he would not be killed because he is protected with ghaibi taqat (invisible power). He would return to an Arab country after a successful war against America. Astrologer Sheikh Tariq Iqbal said in daily Pakistan that after November 15 the American invasion of Afghanistan will bog down and the decline and fall of President Bush will begin. After the American troops run away from Afghanistan, Bush will leave presidency. According to the astrologer, Mulla Umar will be in great difficulty and might even give way to a new government, but if he survived 2001, then victory would be his in the following years.

New justice in Sindh

According to Juhud-e-Haq monthly one Sardar Sher Muhammad Rind hands down novel verdicts for people living on his land. One Yusuf Rind went to the house of Mirza Rind and tried to rape his wife. Sher Muhammad Rind arranged for Yusuf to walk on fire. Before walking on fire, Yusuf`s feet were covered with blood of goat. After walking on fire, his feet were examined and were found unburnt. Yusuf was let go free because of the miracle. On other occasions, Sardar Sher Muhammad had thrown people into a tank full of crocodiles and if the culprit was not eaten up he was allowed to go free.

Have gun will travel!

According to Juhud-e-Haq, Darra Adam Khel of Pakistan`s Tribal Area had 40,000 families linked to the industry of making guns. Children were either not allowed to go to school or were inducted into manufacture of guns after school hours. After two years, all children became expert gun makers and got Rs 20 per day as salary. The tribes living in Darra Adam Khel are Zughunkhel, Akhurwal, Sheraki, Turchapar and Boshnikhel. Other trades included opium, heroin and alcohol. All boys stopped education after primary school. They also travelled with trucks and sometimes ended up in Karachi.

Sectarian mayhem in Karachi

Monthly Juhud-e-Haq gave the following account of sectarian killings in Karachi in which 14 people were killed in two months, August and September 2001. August 3, Dawat Islami (Barelvi Green Turbans) member Yusuf was killed while hoisting party flag. August 9, a Shia was killed in Eidgah area. August 13, three members of Dawat Islami (Barelvi Green Turban) were gunned down. The same day Qayyum Baba was killed in Orangi. The same day MQM`s Nasiruddin was killed. August 19 Dr Riaz, prominent Shia doctor, was done to death. August 21 Shia Jinn Baba Pir was killed. On August 24 Sikandar Awan was killed in Landhi while on September 10 Altaf Hussain was killed on University Road. On September 3, Allama Ali Hasnain Naqvi was shot near Arshi Cinema. On 12 September Maulana Razi Haider Naqvi was killed on Mehreen Chowk. He and his son were shot. On first September three people were killed the same day. Most of the people killed were Shia.

Mulla Umar will die!

Astrologer Mutiur Rehman speaking to daily Pakistan said that America will conquer Afghanistan and Mulla Umar will become shaheed while Osama bin Laden will escape. A lot of Americans will get killed, but Pakistan will come out of the crisis unharmed. Astrologer Fazal Karim said Osama will also become shaheed betrayed by a close friend with light eyes, black beard and a mole on his face. A girl will also become informer on him.

Masood Azhar flees Bahawalpur

According to Nawa-e-Waqt, chief of Jaish-e-Muhammad, renamed Tahreekul Furqan, Maulana Masood Azhar left his home in Bahawalpur along with his brother for an unknown destination. His militia`s name had already been changed by his patron Mufti Shamzai of Banuri Mosque in Karachi. His brother had participated in the hijacking of an aircraft that had led to Masood Azhar`s release from an Indian jail.

Where did the dollars go?

According to Jang, 60 billion dollars came into Pakistan during the last Afghan war but no one knew how the money was spent. The dollars poured in from the US, Saudi Arabia, the UAE and the rich Arabs to fund the Afghan jehad. The question is what will happen to the money that Pakistan will get this time around for joining the world coalition against terrorism?

Osama is no prophet!

Quoted in Ausaf Allama Tahirul Qadiri said that Osama bin Laden was no prophet that millions should die for him. He said American attack on the cities of Afghanistan was no terrorism, and if the Afghan civilians were dying the fault was Mulla Umar`s. He said it was no jehad to blow up buildings and kill innocent people in America. Ausaf also reported Dr Israr Ahmad from Lahore that after America`s attack on Afghanistan the qital (massacre) of Americans and the British had become farz (obligatory) on the Muslims.

Taliban and royal ladies

Editor Ausaf Hamid Mir wrote in his column that great Pakistani soldier of Islam active in Herat Colonel (Retd) Sultan Amir Imam (once Pakistan`s consul general in Herat but now fighting for Taliban on his own) told him that the ladies of the royal family of Afghanistan resident in Herat told him that while they used the veil in front of all men they did not do so in front of the Taliban boys because they were so pious. They said if the Taliban went away the old mujahideen will return to dishonour them.

Gailani`s infamous commander

Revealed by editor Ausaf in his column, Pir Syed Ahmad Gailani, a leader of the old Afghan jehad was putting together an anti-Taliban moderate leadership in Peshawar. This was understandable because he hated the Taliban because Mulla Umar had put one of his right hand man Gul Agha to death because Gul was found to have married a boy in Kandahar and had spread havoc in the city with his homosexual pursuits.

Moderate plots against Taliban

According to Ausaf, moderate Afghans were busy plotting against the Taliban in the various cities of Pakistan. Pir Gailani and Commander Abdul Haq were active in Peshawar and Gul Shirazi in Quetta were spearheading this conspiracy and were spreading rumours that foreign minister Vakil Ahmad Mutawakkil and Maulvi Abdul Kabir had turned moderate and were joining the anti-Taliban movement.

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RELEASE NAVEED QAMAR NOW ! ! !



From Dawn today


PPP, govt `very close` to finalizing deal


By Rafaqat Ali

ISLAMABAD, Nov 8: The government and PPP are reportedly ``very close`` to finalizing a deal under which Ms Benazir Bhutto will be able to come back to the country without any fear of going to jail and Asif Ali Zardari, imprisoned since 1996, will come out of jail, Dawn has learnt from reliable sources.

Negotiations are still going on to finalize the deal. After PPP team`s meeting with President Pervez Musharraf on Monday, PPP leaders sounded very ``optimistic.``

According to an insider dealing with legal affairs of the party, it has been agreed that Ms Bhutto would not be arrested on her return.

She would file an application in the Accountability Court, Rawalpindi, demanding that her conviction on the charges of non-appearance in the court should be recalled.

The government, the sources said, had given an assurance that the application would be accepted and conviction order passed under section 31 of the NAB Ordinance recalled.

Ms Bhutto, facing four corruption cases, was convicted in April 1999 by an Ehtesab Bench headed by Justice Malik Mohammad Qayyum on the charges of awarding pre-shipment contract to a Swiss firm for personal considerations.

The conviction was not only set aside but also the judge who had handed down the judgement, had to leave the judicial institution after being declared ``biased`` by the SC on the appeals of Ms Bhutto and Asif Ali Zardari.

Mr Zardari, behind the bar since 1996, is carrying no conviction so far. His conviction in pre-shipment case in 1999, was set aside by the Supreme Court and matter was remanded to the competent court.

The accountability court, however, has taken up the case but it is still at ``notice stage``.

There are a total of 12 cases against Mr Zardari. Six pertain to his alleged corruption and six others are criminal cases, including four murder cases.

He has been granted bail by courts in 10 cases so far and the bail application in the 11th case will be taken up on Nov 23.

The chances of his getting bail from the Lahore High Court, Rawalpindi bench, in the 11th case, (Polo ground reference), are also bright.

The other case in which Mr Zardari has not been granted bail is about Narcotics, which is pending in the sessions court, Lahore. The bail application is pending for one year in the case and if the deal is struck Mr Zardari would be given bail in that case also.

In murder cases, Mr Zardari was granted bail in Justice Nizam, Murtaza Bhutto and secretary Alam Baloch`s cases. He is also facing a case of suicide.

Soon after the PPP leaders` meeting with President Pervez Musharraf, Hakim Ali Zardari, father of Asif Ali Zardari, was shifted to his house.

The other beneficiaries of the deal would be Naveed Qamar, former chairman of Privatisation Commission, and Syed Yousaf Raza Gillani, former Speaker of the National Assembly.

Mr Qamar is behind the bar for the last two years, but his case is still nowhere and he would be out of the jail on bail. Similarly, Mr Yousaf Raza Gillani, who held a very important constitutional post, is being prosecuted for misuse of official telephone facility.

ylh

Post whatever you want by * reputed * authors like Bhim Singh and *reputed * columnists like Udaykumar. Your hands and hands of your tinpot military dictators are red with the blood of 70,002 Kashmiri men, women, and children.

shah exclamation marker !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is funny. Pakistanis say whatever silliness talking of Islam but when an Indian says something you begin bleating like bearded bakra about Indian Muslims.

Zico # 179

``Pimps are misogynistic brutes. They keep their women in line through violence. It is an exploitative relationship between a bully and a weakling with no self esteem.``

Sir! you seem to have a great expertise on the subject matter:))

Regards.

Re: ylh

Saying that Pakistan is for Muslims and only Muslims and is an Islamic republic which hates secularism and democracy has little to do with Indian Muslims. The latter chose what they wanted and in doing so, proved the TNT to be bull$hit. Having said that, good riddance that you Mullahs who now occupy Pakistan left...last thing India needed or needs. Good luck to you and your Taliban buddies.

Karakoram and Zico,

Pardon my intrusion, but your exchange reminded me of a discussion that is taking place re: the US and bin laden, Saddam and the Taliban.

I agree that the genderized prostitute trope has been a popular one and it is based on a concept of power and degradation. Another one has developed and it is equally disturbing; that of the Saddam/bin laden/Afghanistan getting ``assaulted`` sexually by the US. Some examples would be the various cartoons, t shirts, illustrations communicating this idea. Someone mentioned a drawn picture distributed thru the Associated Press in which a military worker is working on a missile that has the message ``Hijack this, f/ *s``. Interesting and confusing messages; firstly, that the assertion that the people responsible for the Wtc attack and the Taliban are gay, and gayness is equated with criminality. The second is a bit more confusing; what role does that leave for the ``straight`` US to take when they send these phallic shaped bombs framed in these homophobic words? Apparently, according to one of my professors, several gay rights orgs have been interrogating these metaphors.

regards

OOps gowy here`s another one.

Bhim Singh, a reputed Indian writer feels totally perturbed over the Indian Government’s in human behaviour being meted out to the people of Indian held Kashmir. The excerpts from his book ‘Flames in Kashmir’ reveal the real side of the story.



Mal Administration

``On our way to Sonamarg, hundreds of people gave us bundles of files, letters, applications and memoranda which they had been sending by post or submitting personally to the local officers, police SHO and governor. No acknowledgment and none has taken note of their representations, no matter what merit they carried. Whether it was Anantnag or Sopore or Badgam or Charar-e-Sharief or Kangan, the local residents were complaining about shortage of drinking water, kerosene oil, firewood and ration. 90 per cent people complained about the failure of the administration to supply essential commodities. People in Sopore had every right to be angry against the ``discriminatory and malafide`` attitude of the administration towards them. Hundreds of shops and houses were destroyed in a fire on January 6, 1993 .The government promised to pay them damages through the insurance company. Not a single penny has been paid till date. There are dozens of cases of this nature. All false promises indeed!`` (P-34)

``Several cases were presented to our team regarding those boys who were detained in different jails in J&K and outside. In several cases, the detention period had already expired. Local courts had directed the government to release the detenus on bail. There are more than 500 such cases where the detenus continued to be in ``wrongful confinement`` in one form or the other. Administration did not care for judicial orders. Judiciary also did not care to proceed further. Administration’s writ runs, merit or no merit``. (P-34)

``There is no agency, either private or public, to listen to the grievances of the people. The government under the pretext of putting up a Grievance cell has appointed a police officer to look into the grievances of the public. A mockery of the rule of law. An NGO, the State Legal Aid Committee of Jammu and Kashmir which wanted to set up a Shikayat Markaj (Grievance Centre) was not allowed by the state to function inspite of the clearance of the Union Home Ministry. The goveror vetoed. Vested interest or demonstration of authoritarianism?`` (P-34,35)

``Most refugee camps are the dens of mosquitoes, scorpions and snakes. The Kashmiri Pandits and Dogras in them ( Dogras were settled in the Valley 140 years ago during the reign of Maharaja Ranbir Singh) were all set to return but the governor vetoed the move! The migrants have been dumped in Udhampur, Nagrota and Jammu. Many of them died of snake or scorpion bite. The Union Home Ministry sent a special team to Srinagar asking the State administration to provide facilities to these migrants for their return. The governor, Krishna Rao, who claims to be the closest confident of the Prime Minister again vetoed the proposal. The Hurriyat Conference Leaders I approached had agreed to welcome them back to their homes``. (P-35)

``The residents living in such remote places as Tangdhar, Karnah, Uri, Kupwara have been deprived of essential commodities like kerosene oil, firewood and sugar, Some residents who came with their representations told our team that the administration has been making false announcements in the media about the supply of foodgrains and kerosene oil to farmers. The fact was that sugar, kerosene oil, and other such essential commodities which were to have been supplied through ration cards had not reached these areas at all. Most of these items are sold to traders through government agencies at Jammu itself. False entries are prepared to show their distribution in the destined places. Same in the far-flung areas of paddar, Marwah, Dachan, Kaljugasar in Doda district and Goolgulabgarh and Ramnagar in Udhampur``. (P-35,36)

``Ladakh region suffers from bureaucratic discrimination like any other district in Jammu. Not even 5 per cent of the funds provided for the schemes for the unemployed youth have been implemented in Ladakh region. Not a single industrial project has even undertaken by the state or the Central government. Not even 5 per cent of the unemployed youth have been given the benefit under the Prime Minister’s Employment Schemes. Banks do not care a bit and charge high rates of commission``.

``In July 1985, Wali Mohd, Ittoo, the then Speaker, was physically lifted from the House when he refused to adjourn it. A Congress Member of the Assembly was physically installed in total violation of rules of procedures and the rule of law. The case is still pending before the Bench of the Supreme Court. Jagmohan, then Governor, approved the action of G.M Shah’s Government on the pretext that this was done inside the House and he had no jurisdiction to intervene though all the rules were flouted. The argument was malafide and lacked the support of law. Yet no legal or political pundit could dare speak in the ``National Interest``. (P-58)

Illegal Detention

``One letter was presented to me by the father of a Kashmir detenue who is lodged in one of the Punjab jails. The term of his detention expired six months ago but he continued to be detained illegally in Sangroor Jail of Punjab. Another gentleman has a similar complaint. He has not heard any news of his two sons for the last two years. He did not know which jail they were lodged in. The third person with a long traditional beard makes his way into the crowd and hugs me. With tears rolling down his eyes, he complains about the inhuman behaviour of the security forces stationed on the bridge side. Several people started speaking simultaneously complaining, protesting and praying for justice and human treatment from the administration and security forces``.

Indian Atrocities

According to a group of Human Rights Activits ``Indian Army occupied Kashmir, and ever since ``more than 30,000 Kashmiri women have been raped by Indian security personnel, of whom 6,000 got pregnant and delivered illegitimate babies``. (P-77)

``In Gondon, a Government employee, Abdul Latif, was killed while in custody whereas three people died and nearly 50 suffered serious injuries during an Army crackdown in a village of Bhadharwah Tehsil. These incidents do need a thorough and judicial probe to restore confidence of the local people``. (P-129)

Statement of Home Minister

``Meanwhile, Home Minister Chavan has caused a great deal of confusion by his statement on the floor of the Rajya Sabha on Jun 1, that the government was willing to ascertain the views of the people of Jammu and Kashmir on whether they really want to merge with Pakistan or they want an independent Kashmir``. (P-98)

Elections in IHK

``The present administration has failed to establish its authority in 5 years, Even Class III and IV employees of J&K Government like patwaris, Chowkidars and Police Constables have refused to carry out the Government directives to register voters. Then where are the voters? Nearly 5,000 young people are in jail waiting for their trials in different places, More than 2,000 are on the list of ``Missing persons`` and most of them are rotting in the PoK camps or undergoing arms training somewhere there. Nearly 1,90,000 migrant-voters are spread all over India and are lodging in different refugee camps in Jammu, Udhampur, Delhi and elsewhere``. (P-100)

``The Election Commission’s refusal to provide Identity Cards (ICs) to the voters has also caused doubts in the minds of the people about the real intention to hold free and fair polls in the State``. (P-111)

``Seshan’s announcement that identity cards will be provided in all the states except Jammu and Kashmir has strengthened the belief that the Centre is not interested in holding free and fair polls in Kashmir. One of the main reasons for the rise of militancy in Kashmir was the memories of electoral fraud committed by the government in connivance with the election machinery in the assembly polls in 1987 and then in the parliamentary by-elections from Udhampur in 1988, have not faded``. (P-115)

The Delimitation Commission with Justice K.K. Gupta as its Chairman submitted its final recommendations in June 1992, increasing the Assembly seats from 76 to 87. Two seats were added for Ladakh region whereas five for the region of Jammu and four for Kashmir valley. This order of the Delimitation Commission was rejected by the Chief Election Commissioner, T.N Seshan, as ``a fraud on the statute``. Seshan went further to add that the order of the Delimitation Commission was totally illegal, fraud and non- existent for several reasons``. (P-125)

``The people of Jammu and Kashmir have swallowed bitter lemons for decades. One of the main reasons for the rise of militancy in Jammu and Kashmir was rigging and manipulation in the electoral process in the State. The past memories of electoral frauds committed by the Government in connivance with the election machinery in the Assembly polls 1987 and then in parliamentary bye-elections from Udhampur in 1988, are neither forgettable nor forgivable``. (P-126)

Failure of Civil Administration

``Doda’s people have suffered a lot at the hands of indifferent administrators. No factory, no industry, no roads, no development, no dispensaries, no communication. Eighty per cent of the population is still dependent on river water for their drinking needs and that too 5 to 10 Kms away``. (P-131)

Popular Support

``The Congress and the National Conference, the major political parties which have ruled Jammu and Kashmir since 1950, are not prepared to go for the polls because their popular support is at the lowest level, particularly in the Valley which has 42 Assembly seats out of a total of 76``. (P-134)

Collapse Of Democratic Institutions

``One stark factor is that all democratic institutions in the State of J&K from the panchayat to the Assembly level, have collapsed. Nearly six million people of the State have been denied their basic fundamental rights to choose their representatives for the local bodies, panchayats, Assembly and the parliament``. (P-161)

``Instead of working out a methodology to involve the local population in the running of the local affairs of the State, the centre chose to import the ``viceroys`` from different parts of the country, mostly outdated and unemployed ex-bureaucrats who have been designated as advisors. The post of the advisor was totally foreign to the Constitution of Jammu and Kashmir. Surprisingly, all advisors have also been exercising their powers of a Minister of the Cabinet rank, which is totally illegal and unconstituational. Some of the ordinances which were promulgated by Jagmohan, for example, an ordinance on the security of the border within the meaning of the Constitution. But, such ordinances are still continuing even though they have no legal sanctions at all``. (P-161)

Corruption in Bureaucracy

``There has been no check on the exercise of powers by the bureaucrats. The money which has been flooding from Delhi for developmental works has never been utilised by the bureaucratic government because they are not answerable to anybody. In some districts, the District Development Commissioners (DDCs) were arrested for having swallowed the entire annual budget fixed for the development of the district. Anantnag is a living example in this regard. Corruption has almost been legalised and the ``viceroys`` are busy in hunting fish out of the troubled waters of the Dal Lake``. (P-161)

Need For Rehabilitation

``The State is also suffering from constitutional anarchy. There is not a single democratic system, which is operating any longer nor the public men have any say in running the affairs of the State``. (P-162)

Sufferings of People

``It was during that period that mines, industrial land were leased out to the non-State also sold to the outsiders too. The residential places of residents. The marble mines of Kupwara and diamonds of paddar were Maharaja Hari Singh in Bombay were sold at throw away prices without the consent of the assembly for the sake of commissions. The people of Jammu continued to suffer but were obliged to keep quiet in the name of nationalism and unity of the State. These volcanoes are at the exploding point!. In 1950, so called Assembly was constituted under the seal of the ``Regent,`` Yuvraj Karan Singh without holding elections in a single constituency. This was the first fraud on the people of Jammu and Kashmir``. (P-201)

``The government, is indifferent to public issues, whereas the Centre does not want to interfere with the state government. Almost every family has been affected one way or the other. According to official figures, till January 1, 1997, over 16,898 people were killed during militancy, which included 7,727 civilians and 1,31 security personnel. The injured numbered more than 12,000. The unofficial figures are much higher. Nearly 5,000 youth are still in prison. Some 3,00,000 Kashmiris, both Muslims and Hindus, are living outside the Valley as migrants and need immediate rehabilitation. Instead, the government, to divert the attention of the people from the real issues, has chosen to browbeat the Centre and exploit innocent Kashmiris by raising the bogey of the so Called ``greater autonomy`` which has no taker except some retired drawing room leaders and intellectuals in Delhi``. (P-212)

I personally dont agree with a lot of what Chomsky has to say... but I think he is on the dot on few of the points... for example I havent understood satisfactorily enough as why the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was a blow for humanity .... or why the operation enduring freedom is now using `Daisy cutters`?

The formerly de-humanized WTC mass murderers are beginning to look human.

-YLH

tell you what Gowardhan, everytime you put up an article of hate against Pakistan, I will put up a newsstory from Kashmir, and about the violence against christians dalits and muslims in mainstream India.. ok?

Here goes ... Are you ready Gowy dear?

Here are some extracts from an article written by James Buchan on Kashmir. James Buchan spent ten years as a foreign correspondent for the Financial Times. He has written five novels, among them ``A Parish of Rich Women,`` which won the Whitbread First Novel Award: ``Heart`s Journey in Winter,`` which won the Guardian Fiction Prize; and most recently ``High Latitudes.``

1. …I am bewildered by novelty: not just the hillsides clear-cut of trees, or the shuttered bazaar in Anantnag and the soldiers and armed police everywhere, or the filthy lake and the crudy hotels along the Boulevard with soldiers` underclothes flapping from their balconies, or the streets full of garbage and army checkpoints ; but something about the way the Kashmiris move. The men hurry along with their heads bowed, evidently on some urgent business, though the bazaar and administration have been closed by a general strike. The women are muffled in their burqas, as if relieved to hide their faces (and hence their identities) behind a general, harmless and degraded femininity. They look as if the Indians have knocked the stuffing out of them.

2. On the stern of the boat, in the twenty-watt light, I drink Indian whisky from a teapot. A full moon shivers in the lake. The silence is broken every now and then, by a single or double gunshot, the muezzin hawking into the Hazratbal mosque public address system, or the lake belching methane from its bed of * * * * and silt. There are lights on the other side: the villas of war profiteers. The green bloom on the lake surface is indescribably sickly. I fear the Kashmir I knew ten years ago has no counterpart in this utterly messed-up world;

3. It is not that Srinagar has been destroyed by the fighting, as Beirut was in the 1970s and Kabul in the 1980s. There is no damage from heavy weapons. The rising or ``militancy`` as the Indians call it, was fought with knives, pistols, Chinese and Russian automatic rifles supplied from Pakistan and the weapons bazaars of the Afghan border, grenades and the home-made fused bombs known in the subcontinent as improvised explosive devices. It was put down with clubs, money and standard -issue carbines. The Indian Air Force never deployed an armed helicopter, and the airplanes from Delhi come in low over the valley as if the Stinger missile had never been invented or deployed in Afghanistan. What makes Srinagar unrecognizable is its loss of function.

4. The cricket pitches, houseboats, temples, Mogul gardens, shawl and papier-mâché shops that jolt past the window of the car stand idle or have been converted to military use….The streets and bridges are quite empty but for army patrols and Indian reporters in collapsing Ambassadors, morosely looking for trouble. It is as if the uprising has killed the entire population; or rather has sent the people burrowing into their houses, to sit all day on the floor, smoking and eating too much and trying not to think. Only the houseboat wallahs are out: so sleek and fat on my earlier visits, they have shed their weight and confidence and hang about the ghats, unshaven, poor as rats; or squabble over two European hippies, so closed off in their morphine and daily economies that they have nodded out a civil war.

5. The world I inhabited has vanished: the state government and the political class, the rule of law, almost all the 95,000 Hindu inhabitants of the valley, alcohol, cinemas, cricket matches, picnics by moonlight in the saffron fields, schools, universities, an independent press, tourists - and my chief problem -banks. In this reduction of civilian reality, the sights of Kashmir - the things worth seeing, in guidebook language - are redefined: not the filthy lake and Mogul gardens with their busted fountains, or the storied triumphs of Kashmiri agriculture, handicrafts and cookery, but two entities that confront each other without intermediary: the mosque and the army camp.

6. Waiting in the courtyard, while the worshippers scampered towards the gate, wer4 frisked, slid off their shoes, turned west, spread their rugs and bent to their prayers, I was startled by the good nature of the police around me. Then a word burst from the mosque public address system: azadi. It dissolved in a howl of sound, and as the police ran to the gate , their carbines jingling on their hips , it seemed to me the word had been ripped from the body of the speaker and still traveled through the air, over the lake to beat itself against the mountain wall, over and over again. Moments later a man called Javed Mir, famous in Kashmir, was dragged past me in the courtyard by six plain-clothes coppers, his slippers catching on the stones. Javed`s face had the self-absorption of a man who has been in jail a lot and is going back there, but the rest was comedy; and it occurred to me that when you want to destroy a people`s will you make them and their beliefs, in this case azadi, comical.

7. The rigging of the 1987 election convinced my son and his friends that there was no alternative to armed struggle, which they felt was the only way for Kashmiris to recover their right of an honorable and peaceful existence in an independent state. They were convinced that election and personal politics were no longer a solution. They knew it was impossible to fight India. They were doubly sure of the might of the Indian Republic and their own meager resources, but they were also sure their sacrifices would revive the dead Kashmiri issue in International forums. I am proud that their sacrifices were not wholly in vain.

8. The Garden of the Kashmiri Martyrs , as it is known, is a raised cemetery, planted with dwarf cypresses, gladioli, irises, and roses. There are about 400 graves, with headstones to record the name, place of residence, educational achievements and place of death of the martyr or myrtyress….In these graves, you can read the story of the Kashmiri uprising in a quarter of an hour….there are many women and children, evidence of the ham-fistedness of the Indian response. All around you, the Muslim middle class is being thinned out, individual by individual: surgeons, lawyers, journalists. What begins as a call to arms passes through a fantasy of victory and ends in inconsolable defeat.

9. Colonel Ravi said: ``I would say there are some 2200 militants still active, of which about a thousand are foreigners of some sort or other, Afghans, Sudanese and so on. Bear in mind these fellows aren`t the LTTE [Tamil tigers in northern Sri Lanka] who read army manual, and because soldiers are trained to take cover behind a tree or culvert when fired upon, put the improvised explosive devices in there. I have served in the Nagaland, Mizoram and Punjab; and our experience is that these militancies last about ten years before they exhaust themselves, so this problem still has a year or two to run before the Kashmiris are tired out. The particular problem is the border with Pakistan. It is difficult terrain and thus has to be manned, it can`t be fenced or controlled electronically. We can`t totally seal it off against infiltration.``

10. (Colonel Ravi)…Then he began to speak of his life and work, of the wife he never saw and the children who`d grown up without him, and how in the Mizo Hills, the people walked singing to their fields at dawn and returned singing at dusk. He seemed to me to have given his life to his country, or to an idea of it…..I sensed that he did not want to be remembered only for that freezing morning in early January 1993, when his men burn`t the bazaar in Sopore and killed fifty-four shopkeepers and their families…

11. Noor ul-Hassan, a former forester now active for human rights, ranged over all recorded history to show that the valley had never been ruled by Hindus from Delhi. On better days, those roots go down only as far back as 1846, when the British sold the present State of Jammu and Kashmir, plus some other pieces now occupied by the Pakistanis or the Chinese, to a Hindu soldier called Gulab Singh for 750,000 pounds down, a horse, twelve goats and six pairs of shawls in tribute each year. That a Muslim people had been sold to a Hindu ruler was not at the time considered reprehensible, though the British came, for reasons of strategy and even conscience, to regret it. The British mostly left the valley to be maladministered by its maharajas, content with sport and houseboat honeymoons…non-Kashmiris weren`t permitted to own land or houses in the valley….and with destroying the shawl trade through cheap Glasgow imitations.

12. One can spend so long in 1947 that, stepping outside, you see the place transformed in the autumnal air, and to think to hear the Dakotas rumbling overhead…with just twenty men in each…and see the maharaja`s motorcade, he in the first car, driving, with his Russian jeweller, Victor Rosenthal, beside him, the ladies in several cars behind, winding its bumpy way up over the Banihal Pass…the tunnel wasn`t yet built…towards safety and oblivion. According to Karan Singh, the maharaja was silent all the forty- eight-hour journey till, arriving at the palace at Jammu, and turning to Rosenthal, he said:``We have lost Kashmir.``

13. Thus, for the Kashmiri Muslims, Jammu and Kashmir, the only state in the Indian Union where the Muslims are majority, has been cheated by successive Indian administerations of the self determination promised by the founders of the Constitution…Kashmiri elections have never done Indian democracy proud, and those held in 1996 were unlikely to be exceptions….The village women, shrieking with excitement and rage, said the army had arrived at 6:00 a.m., called the men out of their houses by loudspeaker, and sent them down to the polling station. They had threatened, the women said, to cut off any hand that didn`t display the indelible mark painted by Indian polling officers on the index finger. (I heard the charge often in the course of the day, but never saw such amputation.). Latter, in the Khwaja Bazaar district of Srinagar, a BSF sergeant, carrying a side arm, bawled at group of men: ``Come to the Motherland polling booth. There is nothing to fear. The Motherland will protect you. Now come on, move along, Move!`` Among scores of Kashmiris I met that day, only two elderly men said they voted willingly. That evening, at the J&K Tourism Center, the chief secretary held a press conference. He announced that the turnout in that Srinagar constituency had been twenty-five percent, including postal votes…a blatant fantasy.

14. Indian officials like to talk of the valley as ``alienated`` from Indian rule, a euphemism that does not begin to describe the mental condition of the Kashmiris. They are in shock. They simply cannot believe that between 14,000 and 20,000 people have died just to return the valley to the situation that existed before 1990: to Farooq Abdullah and the professional politicians of the National Conference. They cannot understand why the world has ignored them.

Gowardhan,

Go get a life. If I started posting the stuff I have on India, your friends will start screaming...

Concern yourself with your own country. Why are you so obsessed with Pakistan?

70000 + 2 killed in Kashmir

http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/08/welcome.htm

Grenade kills woman in Kashmir, wounds child: SRINAGAR, Nov 08:

A woman was killed and five others, including a one-year-old child, were wounded today when Mujahideen threw a grenade in a street in Srinagar, police said. No group has claimed responsibility for the attack. (Reuters) (Posted @ 12:45 PST)

Zico: ``Can you tell the difference between allegory and endorsement?``

I think I understand now. This whore allegory seems to be quite popular in India, what with some minister talking about India gyrating her hips to be taken up by the US. So does that make India the whore that never made it.. the whore tempting Big Daddy to put her on the streets because she can do a better job than the other whore. Let me know if I`m getting this allegory right. Who knows if Pakistan the whore doesn`t do a good job, India the whore might get her chane to `work the streets`.

In truth, I think its a crude & rude allegory. But hey, if it helps you understand stuff better- all power to you. A final point since India is bigger than Pakistan does that necessarily make her a better whore ?

Thanks.

TALIBAN ARE OUR CHILDREN - ISI CHIEF

Indians Have Taken Over Makkah Madina

Ylh claims Indians are spoiling Pakistani image by telling the truth about Pakistan.

http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/07/top18.htm

Riyadh recognized Taliban govt on Islamabad`s advice: Prince Turki

By Our Correspondent

RIYADH, Nov 6: Former Saudi intelligence chief Prince Turki Al-Faisal, who remained deeply involved in the Afghanistan issue for almost 25 years, ever since the Soviet invasion, told the local Saudi daily Arab News that Saudi Arabia had recognized the Taliban government in 1997 `` on the advice of our Pakistani brothers.``

In the third part of an exclusive interview jointly conducted by Arab News and the MBC Television, carried on Tuesday, Prince Turki said the former Pakistani interior minister Naseerullah Babar had introduced the Taliban in an interesting way. ``He had said they are my children.``

Recognizing the Taliban regime was a hasty decision, he said. One of the reasons`` why we recognized the Taliban government was the agreement between the Kingdom and Pakistan since the time of President Zia-ul-Haq on consulting and coordinating on all matters concerning Afghanistan. It was a result of this agreement and the advice of our Pakistani brothers that we recognized the Taliban.``

Further, until ``that time the Taliban had not created any controversy. It was controlling 95 per cent of the territory when the Kingdom accorded recognition to the Taliban regime in 1997. It was also providing security and stability in the region. We recognized them several months after they captured Kabul.``

During the interview the prince confirmed that Sudan, at one time, had agreed to hand over Osama Bin Laden to the Kingdom before he returned to Afghanistan in 1996. ``Pesident Bashir (of Sudan) had asked for guarantees that Osama would not be prosecuted.

The prince said Bashir was told that no one was above the law and that`` we could not give any such guarantees.`` He also hinted that, at a point in time, Mulla Omar had also given positive signals to the Saudi demand that Osama be handed over to the Saudi government.

In his first of the two meetings with Mulla Omar, Dr Abdullah Al-Turki, the current secretary general of the Muslim World League, had also accompanied the prince. `` Mulla Omar did not object to Sheikh Al-Turki`s arguments on the extradition of the Al-Qaeda chief to the Kingdom and I thought he agreed with Al-Turki`s arguments on the basis of Shariat. At the second meeting,after the US embassy bombings in Africa, however, Mulla Omar was not in a mood to listen to any one,`` the prince said.

He could not recall Mulla Omar`s exact words, except that he had used an abusive language to criticize the Kingdom`s leadership during the meeting.

Prince Turki pointed out that after the Russian withdrawal, the United States` interest in Afghanistan had dwindled. However, he said, the US wanted to see some sort of stability in the region. It kept monitoring the activities of the oil companies which were working for establishing a gas pipeline from Turkmenistan to the Arabian Sea through Afghanistan and Pakistan, he added.

``There were only three choices: the pipeline could either go through Russia, but the Caucasus mountains and the Chechen crisis obstructed the project; or through Iran to Bandar Abbas. But the American firms were banned by the US administration from operating in Iran. So the only viable option left was through the war-torn Afghanistan.``

The prince hinted (that in order to secure support for the pipeline project) some of the oil companies might have even provided funds to the Taliban regime. `` These (oil) companies had contacted the Taliban and I cannot rule out that they had offered their support to the Taliban. In such cases, the assistance could have been in millions or in the form of a promise,`` he added.

#179

ZICO

``[............A perfect analogy for the relationship between Big Daddy Uncle Sam and the land of the pure right now.

Can you tell the difference between allegory and endorsement?``]



Zico

If you want to ALLEGORISE ``the relation`` as such ,

Soviet Union ,since 50s has been Indias pimp & `lover `from Bul Ganin to PUtin ,only that now Indian are jelous of Pakistan (the insignificant doomed state according to hindians) is getting all the attention.

Indians have performed major `blow job ` for the Russians in Chekoslovakia Invasion in `68 when despite its fake rhetoric of Gandhism,PROSTITUTED ITSELF TO NOT CONDEMN THAT ACT ,Why?

On the topic of whores:

Who was it who made the allegory of India gyrating like a tawaif for the US attention?

`- Did you not know that Pakistan IS Islam? Dont say silly things dude.`

DUDE ... frankly Why is that so, I dont understand that. But you know what I dont have a problem with that.. I am honored..... but what about the Muslims in India... Are they all Pakistanis then? Because they are not! Then are they all Indians? but then Pakistan is Islam and Islam is Pakistan ? so then by your logic Indian Muslims are not Indians.. and since you keep writing `India/Hindus` when I havent once used India/Hindus together, it shows that to your mind India and Hinduism is inseparable, which indeed is the true basis of the Pakistani demand anyway.

It is ironic that we in `Muslim` Pakistan are thinking in terms of Pakistan and India, while you in the official `secular` India are still thinking in terms of `Hindu vs Muslim` ...a conflict which might be valid within India, but is of no major importance to us Pakistanis. Perhaps because no fundamentalist party has ever won power in Pakistan, but in Secular India a Hindu fundamentalist party is ruling.

Your entire argument is muddled, and it is this muddles argument which makes plain why India is a Hindu country and shall remain one forever.

-YLH

Zico

You might be an exception, but what was up with the `fake` hijacking recently. How can be one so confused that rumors of `Two men speaking little English demanding to go to Lahore come up?`

Time to admit your mistakes... I admit ours in Afghanistan...

Indians have been going beserk where they shouldnt have. There was a protest rally against Oprah Winfrey recently... can you believe that.

You people have waged a propaganda war and if you deny that, then I am sorry, you are just denying the truth.

-YLH

Rsaxena

`because they are interchangeable..pakistan was born of the TNT for a bunch of muslims...it is called the ``Islamic Republic of Pakistan``...can`t see the obvious...loser`

Forgive me if I am wrong dear Saxena, but wasnt your premise that TNT is invalid and that is why Pakistan shouldnt be created. Whatever your understanding of the Pakistan Movement (though far from the intellectual truth and based on simplistic biases) you yourself admit that TNT was accepted by only a bunch of Muslims (let us forget that these were former Indian nationalists who had stood alongside the Hindus prior to the rift and that those who were against the TNT were religiously oriented elements which had gained popularity through Khilafat movement.. Let us forget this for a meoment) ... But what about the Muslims in India?

By using Pakistan and Islam interchangeably, arent you alienating them? As for Pakistan being the `Islamic` republic, how much do you think that is true ... even India calls itself secular doesnt it?

My concern is for Pakistan. I dont care one way or the other if Pakistan is interchangeable with Islam, it is a Predominantly Muslim nation and we are certainly proud of that. I am trying to point out the flaw in your argument.. and demonstrating why `TNT` was a fact that was forced on us in the first place.

-YLH

Scout;

{Why do Indians throw hissy fits when they find Pakistan in a positive limelight, or for that matter, any limelight}

You are the only one throwing hissy fits here.

Stick to reading David Duke and ``The Protocols of the Elders of Zion``.

ylh:

{As for Pakistan, you people have done a good job destroying our image}

-ylh, India has done nothing to destroy your image. The whole world has been examining with a magnifying glass the cosy relationship between the Pakistani military and the Taliban. The whole world is listening to Pakistanis posit the theory that the Jews were responsible for September 11th. The media of the western world has put down in black and white print the links between the ISI, Taliban, Harkat-ul-Mujahedeen and Jaish-e-Mohammed. I understand it is a reflexive action for a Pakistani to put his head in the sand and deny these things, but in that respect you are standing naked before the world, there is no point in denying it.

Did India/Hindus make you seek strategic depth in Afghanistan?

Did India/Hindus make you raise the Taliban?

Did India/Hindus cause every woe in Pakistani society?

{We will win the hearts and minds, because unlike you and your kind we are not lying. Our people are honest and sincere}

- Yes, of course you are ;-)

{In any event enjoy your moment of glory while you can}

- It is not a ``moment of glory`` for India. It is a moment or realisation for the whole world.

{1) PAKISTAN will NOT destabilize.}

- I hope and pray it does not. I dont want the psychos with beards replacing the psychos in Khaki. Trust me. We just want your country to stop playing with the Jihad fire. Your nation has spent the last 20 years playing ``bleed India with a thousand cuts`` as a matter of covert state policy. It led to the creation of Taliban, and has radicalised sections of Paki society to the extent that Ismaili doctors are shot in the head in Karachi with depressing regularity.

{it is perfectly clear that India will go as far as to sabotage the entire effort in order to destroy Pakistan}

- No it is not. India will get her pound of flesh, her cut of the cake, as every nation is going to. Dont expect India to blow kisses to Pakistan because of this.

{As for Pakistan and the US, the re vitalization of the Cold war ties, resumption of joint training, and Pakistan`s re-entry into the Western Weapons markets is here}

- ylh, quit looking for a Sugar Daddy. Stand on your own two feet. At the very least have some self dignity. The betrayal of the Taleban and the abandonment of the central plank of your nations foreign policy for the last decade was achieved in the space of one telephone converation. Think how humiliating that is.

{So dream on dreamer, cuz we will persevere, and we will exist till eternity God willing

Long Live Pakistan}

- Pakistan has a long life. I hope so.

{Why do you keep using Islam and Pakistan interchangeably}

- Did you not know that Pakistan IS Islam? Dont say silly things dude.

Karakoram:

{Is that how you treat whores. Whores are people too, ok ? At most you would not pay them if they refuse to oblige.. but slapping is just plain wrong. You are scum.}

Karakoram, calm down. Pimps are misogynistic brutes. They keep their women in line through violence. It is an exploitative relationship between a bully and a weakling with no self esteem. A perfect analogy for the relationship between Big Daddy Uncle Sam and the land of the pure right now.

Can you tell the difference between allegory and endorsement?

Re; ylh

``Why do you keep using Islam and Pakistan interchangeably.``

because they are interchangeable..pakistan was born of the TNT for a bunch of muslims...it is called the ``Islamic Republic of Pakistan``...can`t see the obvious...loser

Re: scout

``first of all, I wasn`t talking to you, but if you insist on getting my attention, it`s ok. I`m flattered.``

look who`s talking...the macchar who kept throwing my name into post after post until i finally took notice and put the smack down...then of course macchar starts throwing hissy fits

Reply Sadna # 167

“Maneka modelled before she became a national d-i-l and commander-in-chief of dispossessed quadripeds. I`ve seen ads with her looking really cute and propa in a DCM? towel, let Ms Lodhi beat THAT…”

Please, life is difficult enough as it is…

RE sadna and Zafar

Maneka was quite pretty then, wasn`t she? But in the end, what matters is not the messenger, but the message. Eye candy works for only so long.

and while we`re on this topic, what about Nargis, Vyjanthimala Bali and Jayalalitha--who both looked kinda nice when they were young--except that Ms Bali and Nargis still had charm when they warmed their chairs in the Rajya Sabha while Ms. Jayalalitha unfortunately has expanded to resemble the cartoon character Obelix in girth.

But if any of the swiss banks wanted models for their discreet banking services, we sure have enough to offer: Sharad Pawar, AR Antulay or Laloo. However, our neighbors have the clear upper hand with BB. Had Rajiv been alive, Mr. Bofors would have easily pipper her to be the spokesmodel for the subcontinent.

Bottom line: all politicians and rulers [including the khaki types over there] are all crooks anyway. Power corrupts as the old saying goes.

Zico:

``It is the alliance between a pimp and his whore. If you dont do what he says you are going to get slapped. ``

Is that how you treat whores. Whores are people too, ok ? At most you would not pay them if they refuse to oblige.. but slapping is just plain wrong.

You are scum.

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I`m going to ask again:

Why do Indians throw hissy fits when they find Pakistan in a positive limelight, or for that matter, any limelight.

Grow up folks. Get your own country in shape instead of wasting mental energy on your neighbor.

Suxena #161,

first of all, I wasn`t talking to you, but if you insist on getting my attention, it`s ok. I`m flattered.

secondly, most of the world is doing exactly what the US wants so you don`t really need to make a special case of Pakistan. by the way, we`re getting something out of this. an opportunity to cleanse ourselves of fundamentalists and the Taleban, and to get our economy back on track.

you can say whatever you want to say, but i think Pakistan is on the right track these days. i know it hurts you to see this, but please calm down. it will be good for india too, indirectly.

Zico #165, ``It is the alliance between a pimp and his whore. If you dont do what he says you are going to get slapped. Simple as that. ``

And you think this alliance is different from India`s alliance to the US. or for that matter, all of the third world countries` alliance to the US.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

Zico

Yup things are perfectly clear. The two men being held in Fort Worth Texas, the would be hijackers are from Andrapradesh and Indian residents.

As for Pakistan, you people have done a good job destroying our image, but the fact remains, that the protests in Pakistan have been 5000 to 10000 people, ... That number is nothing compared to the 140 Million population. We will win the hearts and minds, because unlike you and your kind we are not lying. Our people are honest and sincere. They have been misled but they stand by the United states....

In any event enjoy your moment of glory while you can because

1) PAKISTAN will NOT destabilize.

2) Our Arsenal Will not fall in the wrong hands.

3) US and Israel will not carry out pre emptive strikes. As for India, it will never succeed.

4) Musharraf Government will not fall.

5) Pakistan will emerge a stronger more vibrant nation.

So keep dreaming and hoping, cuz we aint fallin yet or ever Inshallah.

Yup things are perfectly clear Zico. Perhaps Arundati Roy said it best, but I will add my masaala to it... India is gyrating like a tawaif for US`s attention but will not get any. Your shameless attempt to jump in and offer your bases was not even given a second thought. Yup it is perfectly clear that India will go as far as to sabotage the entire effort in order to destroy Pakistan. India`s Hindu fundamentalist face is being exposed albeit slowly.

As for Pakistan and the US, the re vitalization of the Cold war ties, resumption of joint training, and Pakistan`s re-entry into the Western Weapons markets is here.

What is more, is that the state has finally realize the role of the media especially within Pakistan. The changes in the outlook, return to kemalism, after 5 years of talibanization which didnt take root, is imminent.

So dream on dreamer, cuz we will persevere, and we will exist till eternity God willing.

Long Live Pakistan.

YLH

PS Why do you keep using Islam and Pakistan interchangeably. Oh let me guess, your argument against the people caught at Fort Worth is that they are not Indians they are Muslims right?

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Zafar #162
Maneka modelled before she became a national d-i-l and commander-in-chief of dispossessed quadripeds. I`ve seen ads with her looking really cute and propa in a DCM? towel, let Ms Lodhi beat THAT..

RE: Reply #: 163 Asim Hayat

``LAUSANNE, Switzerland (AFP) - A Swiss court has agreed to hand over sensitive information to Pakistan about three frozen bank accounts as part of a probe into former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, judicial sources said Monday.``

That`s heartening to hear. Now if anyone can get the Pakistani army and it`s cohorts to open their books in a similar manner, I will be convinced that justice is at hand rather than a witchhunt.

scout;

{why can`t Indians like yourself handle the alliance between the US and Pakistan?}

Pakistan is a client state for the Gulf Arab republics, China, and now the USA. That is fine, Pakistan has a track record of such status, she is familiar with it (Tariq Alis ``used condom`` phrase summarises it perfectly).

But there is no alliance between the USA and Pakistan, as there is say, between Britain and America. It is the alliance between a pimp and his whore. If you dont do what he says you are going to get slapped. Simple as that. Musharraf has no choice.

One of the best journalists in South Asia, Ayaz Amir of ``The Dawn`` newspaper, puts it in the most exquisite prose. Read it and weep.

and stay off Ku Klux Klan websites.

Re: Asim

Kudos, Sir, on doing a good job by exposing a scoundral, and a pat on the back to all other students who put out flyers illuminating BB`s BS. This is the only way to deal with these kind of crooks. Students and the ``moderate`` educated middle class needs to have this on top of their agenda. Take these thieves down. I salute your efforts.

factoid: In her first term, BB, issued 392 Ordiances that year, if any one remembers...:-)

Our exministers get to have accounts in beautiful places like Lausanne.

Regards

Asim

P.S Aur Haan Ras Sahib, Mushahid Hussain is a parha likha chalta phirta hypocrite par excellence. :) After all the fellow got torn asunder by the veritable Cowasjee in his columns, not once, but numerous times, and rightly so too. His opinions make for a great revolving door! another sign of a lack of character!

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/today/main/top6.htm

LAUSANNE, Switzerland (AFP) - A Swiss court has agreed to hand over sensitive information to Pakistan about three frozen bank accounts as part of a probe into former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto, judicial sources said Monday.

The sources said Switzerland’s highest court in mid-October rejected an appeal filed by three companies, whose accounts have been frozen since 1997, to prevent Pakistan obtaining information about their Swiss-held assets.

The companies, all based in the tax-havens of the British Virgin Islands and Panama, appealed against the release of banking information, citing human rights violations and irregularities in the judicial procedure in Pakistan.

‘We don’t see how they could be concerned by the human rights situation or by procedural irregularities in the country requesting the information,’ the Swiss tribunal said in its October 15 ruling, noting that the companies were not established in Pakistan but in international tax-havens.

The accounts were frozen on October 16, 1997 by an investigating judge in Geneva, following a request for judicial assistance by Pakistan’s general prosecutor in an embezzlement case against Benazir, her husband Asif Ali Zardari, and her mother Nusrat Bhutto.

At the time, Swiss authorities started a parallel investigation into the matters.

In 1998 Swiss Judge Daniel Devaud asked for the indictment of Benazir and her husband for money-laundering in connection with financial transactions they carried out with two Swiss companies, the Societe Generale de Surveillance (SGS) and its subsidiary Cotecna.

In April 1999, a Lahore court sentenced the Bhuttos to a five-year prison term after they were found guilty of accepting a multi-million-dollar bribe from Swiss companies in exchange for awarding an export-control contract.

The Bhuttos were also ordered to each pay an 8.6 million dollar (9.5 million Euro) fine.

But the Pakistani Supreme Court overturned the verdict in April this year, saying it had been politically motivated.

In June a Pakistani judge again sentenced the former Prime Minister in absentia to three years in jail.

Re: my old friend macchar

``alliance between the US and Pakistan?``

umm...don`t know if when one country tells another to ``SHUT UP AND DO THIS OR ELSE`` it qualifies as an alliance or a majboori...

November 15, 2001

A Tribute to New York: Junoon performs at the Tribeca Performing Arts Center, at a college which lost a building in the 9/11 attacks. For tickets and more info, contact samad_wazir@hotmail.com

Venue: Tribeca Performing Arts Center , Borough of

Manhattan Community College 199 Chambers street NY NY

Subway lines: A,C,1,2,3,9,4,5,6,N,R

Organizers: Pakistan Student Association with the help of Student Goverment, Borough of Manhattan Community College Ticket : $15 general entry... limited seating (only 900 seats and no standing allowed)

Zico #154, ``And you are being played along like suckers by Big daddy USA again.``

hmmmmm, it`s funny but last time i checked, the indian government was quite busy kissing the US`s as$ and was bending over backwards to get the United States to throw them a political bone.

why can`t Indians like yourself handle the alliance between the US and Pakistan?

by the way, when a country like Pakistan has no choice in a matter of political importance such as this, it`s not called ``being played along like suckers.`` it`s called doing the right thing and that`s exactly what president musharraf is doing.

i suggest you quit whining about Pakistan. get over your own insecurities before asking others to.

For the Indians making fun of Maleeha Lodhi`s hair:

you guys are just jealous that our politicians are better looking than yours. benazir bhutto, imran khan, maleeha lodhi all take good care of their images, and even president musharraf is good looking if you squint hard enough. better than the shriveled little yellow vested/dhoti clad/pot bellied/oily hair kind east of the border.

Re: Zico

``Beehive Lodhi``

hey, you pay me royalties before you use that expression

Is Farrukh Dhondhi the guy who wrote the screenplay for Movie Jinnah?

Anyway, that was a great article, as a matter of fact both of them. I`ve often said, people like Muhammad Junaid, born and bred in the US are more attracted to a fanatical version of Islam than anyone else.

ylh

{We understand quite well, that the negative propaganda you people have spread around was easier to spread than to clean up, but we are winning people one by one by one by one}

-I understand how beleagured people like you must take pleasures in small packages.

Mister, I am not a bigot or a fanatic, just an Indian patriot, and if those terms apply to me, they do so to you too. The USA and the whole world sees real bigotry and fanaticism beamed in live from Bahawalpur and Peshawar everyday. Beehive Lodhi is more transparent than a pane of glass. As for lies and false assertions, dude, your compatriots went live on a BBC discussion programme afew weeks ago broadcast on BBC world and said defintively it was Mossad, and the old ``4000 Jews were not at their desks`` canard. How the carefully assembled audience of Americans in the New York studio replied had to be seen to be believed. And Fareed Zakaria single handedly dismantling the obfuscations of those Pakistani ostriches, a representative panel of ``educated`` Paki opinion was almost painful to watch. Trust me dude, you Pakistanis are your own worst enemies. Even you cling to the ``whole world is against us`` persecution complex.

Check this out:

http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/Sunday-Times/frontpage.html?999

``FEARS of fundamentalist upheaval in Pakistan have aroused concerns in Washington that part or all of Islamabad`s arsenal of nuclear weapons may have to be moved to China for safekeeping from foreign attack

Pakistan`s military establishment was said last week to have been shaken by reports that America, India or Israel might be planning pre-emptive strikes on nuclear sites to prevent weapons falling into fundamentalist hands. ``The generals are panic-stricken,`` said one Pakistani source``

Try and read last weeks cover story in ``The New Yorker`` by Seymour Hersh as well. The rigour and veracity of American journalism is alive and well.

Sadly the image of Islam in the west will never recover from the battering its image has taken since September 11th. And you are being played along like suckers by Big daddy USA again.

Now, have you been racially profiled yet like your compatriots from Coney Island? I feel sad about it, I really do, as Indians are being tainted with the Paki brush. But at least some things now, are perfectly clear.

Take care

AAmir:

I dont understand a word you said

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Sounds like our pal urstruly here:

http://nypost.com/news/regionalnews/33342.htm

A fascinating article by Farrukh Dhondy

http://www.city-journal.org/html/11_4_our_islamic.html

Opinion from another person who received encouragement here on CHOWK from me (which
was not too well received by some readers either) at:

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/today/editor/opi1.htm

Ras

How Oprah became a fundamentalist in India:

http://pub6.ezboard.com/fhinduunityhinduismhottopics.showMessage?topicID=4659.topic

Aamir,

Excellent point there about Oprah getting Hate mail ....

A case in point

http://www.hinduunity.org

Damn I really should be working.

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Chohti chohti Khushian:

Zico says:

`Keep smiling, I certainly am when I watch Pakis squirm in the full glare of Western media spotlight, and their fallacies and whinging makes good comedy for us.`

Haan beta khush ho jaaa. I wonder why your government was gyrating like a tawaif from Lucknow to get the US attention to counter Pakistan.

We understand quite well, that the negative propaganda you people have spread around was easier to spread than to clean up, but we are winning people one by one by one by one. I for one am really happy with Maleeha Lodhi`s performance as the Pakistani ambassador. Millions of middle class women who watch Oprah for example know now that Pakistani women are upright bold and strong.

Similarly everytime Maleeha Lodhi, Salman Ahmed, Benazir Bhutto or Musharraf appear on TV, we get an exposure far better than all the negative nonsense you people cherish.

Waisay other than Fox News (Fox, Star and Zee are part of an international conglomerate from what I understand, though I am not too sure of Zee) none of the channels have portrayed a particularly bad impression of Pakistan... as for Fox News, like one of my friends from my fraternity said `three redneck garbagemen in Midwest watch Fox News.`

In any event, hope bigots and fanatics like yourself will give up this site and go away.

ylh:

Dude, even someone like me who has no sympathy for Pakistanians has been wincing at the verbal batterings and cultural examinations of Pakistan and Islam that is taking place in the western media right now. It must hurt alot to see all your warts diplayed unequivocally by non Hindus. Keep smiling, I certainly am when I watch Pakis squirm in the full glare of Western media spotlight, and their fallacies and whinging makes good comedy for us.

;-)

Stuka,

Thanks for the explanation. I did mean Javed Nasir`s attempt to set up the PGPC as a focus for disaffected Sikhs. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Ras #131,

I agree. Who`s asking Salman to run for office anyway? He`s a musician, not a politician.

It`s nice to see talented young Pakistanis getting the international limelight they deserve.

Ras Siddiqui #114, ``Did you get a chance to see Salman Ahmad of Junoon on Politically Incorrect?``

No, unfortunately, I was traveling at that time. But I did get to read the transcripts of the show.

Contrary to what MFarooqi thinks, I think Salman did a great job at expressing his opinions about various ideas harped upon by Maher. Junoon has come a long way. Good for them.

If anyone`s interested, the transcript can be found at:

http://abc.go.com/primetime/politicallyincorrect/episodes/2001-02/1.html

eklavya #118, ``Anybody who has beautiful eyelashes and pretty feet already has a headstart in my book.``

sexist pee-eye-gee

Reply anNy, Semipreciousme # 120

[“when i met benazir, she was dressed uuugly..real uugly and her shoes were even uglier...”

“….i swear….i’ve never seen a woman with such baaaad taste….i mean polka dots and puffed sleeves???…blech….”]

While I myself would, of course, never dare to have an opinion on such things I recall a (true) incident which confirms your very severe judgements.

Aunty One: “Are dekho, yeh Nusrat ki ladki ki thasveer aaee akhbaar men…”

Aunty Two: “Haiiiiiii! saatin ki soot pehen ke phirthi hai…”

Aunty One: “Bechari…”

Reply Sarwari # 129

“Lets face it, Chowk started off as a Pakistani site, and it was gradually and subtly taken over by Indian agendas.”

Banias 2, Taliban zero.

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#: 122

Eklavya

Guys, quit fighting over whether this is a Pakistani site or not. Yes, it is. No, it is not. What difference does it make



EK,STUKA,BANJARA

On the same note,just like CHOWK,dont fight whether im Pakistani ,or Indian.Only i can say what i am NOT .and that is ,you all know Hindian.

I have birth certificate from Bhawalpur ,& a expired Pakistan Passport to prove im Pakistani.I also have a POI card which allows me to travel freely any where in India life long.

And ,im permanent resident of U.S.A.

Ras,

You are right. In my self righteousness coupled with my dislike for the Bibi and everything that she stands for, I have called you several names. This was indeed uncalled for; and I withdraw those comments, most regretfully. However, the gist of my interactions stands.

I understood your comment about ``roughneck``, and instead decided to take the higher ground using your comment to take a jab at your inability to see through the facade of Ms Bhutto. Rest assured I have no personal squabbles with you. I have the utmost respect for you as a journalist and a decent fellow. Its just this issue of your blind support for Ms BB that i can perhaps never agree with you about. In your enthusiasm , I feel you sometimes elevate the most mortal of people such as BB to unprecendented levels of godliness. But i guess we all have our weaknesses.

You write,.``As a person who has been away from Pakistan for over a quarter century now, I cannot accurately comment on her periods of rule``. Therein lies the problem. Let us agree to disagree about the role of Ms Bhutto in the future of Pakistan.

Regards

Asim

you sound so star struck, its sad.

how one for objectivity mr reporter?

rizvi.

RE: Reply #: 124

Asim Hayat wrote:

``Re : Ras Saddiqui and naivete

Ras, You accuse me of this ``roughneck mentality``, as if it were a bad thing. Au contraire! I am rather proud of this inherent ability to fearlessly call a spade a spade. I like to think of it as most character building. You know you ought to try it sometime. However, unlike yourself, at the very least I am not a psychophantic dupatta-carrier of an aging, dareisay ``hag``; not to mention the fact that I have adequate conscience and integrity to not live in a fool`s utopia, willing to gloss over history in a futile bid to aid and abet a known criminal fugitive form Pakistani justice(is that any oxymoron?)``

Asim, it was supposed to be a private joke between people who have been in the Oil business
and who know and can appreciate the wisdom of roughnecks. I spent 5 years with these guys in the Midwest on drilling rigs, and appreciated some of their views , which happen to be fixated on the drill bit and the pipe/casing that they are
running at the time.
But off the handle you went calling me a variety
of things because you do not agree with me.

Big deal!

I`m glad that you can call a spade a spade but I go beyond that and can say that I am worried deeply about and am watching the whole ``Khait``/field these days.
I would suggest that Pakistanis of every hue stick together now. The Bull is in the China Shop and the immediate future is very uncertain/disturbing.
BB is certainly a controversial person I know and can easily gather from the other replies thus far. But do not ever count her out now and do not question my integrity in future.

Ras

(Alumni of Karachi Grammar School)

RE: Reply #: 121 MFarooqui

MFarooqui,
I do agree with you that Salman had a rough time.
But he did come across as the decent person that
he is. At this time we have to take what we can get. Under the circumstances, I do not believe that he did too badly.

Ras

Bhadave 123

Mind your own business. Your own daugthers dont listen to you that you are giving bhashan here?

Lets face it, Chowk started off as a Pakistani site, and it was gradually and subtly taken over by Indian agendas. There was a time Chowk hardly had anything that was even a little antagonistic to Indian causes. It didn`t sell. But that changed, Chowk became really balanced. I think it still is. Though I wish that silly and useless, ``unemotional discovery of India`` blah blah would be taken off.

That`s my opinion, take eno if necesseary.

Aisha F Sarwari

Sameerjb,

I agree with your sentiment. Ultimately we need institutions. However, let us not forget that it was the `democratic` leadership of Nawaz Sharif which undermined the institutions, starting with the Supreme Court, the Presidency, the Press, and finally he tried to mess with the Army.

Undoubtedly we have seen too many of Alexandars, and Napoleons, and we need strong institutions. But the fact remains, ultimately it has to be a strong personality which will have to make institutions sacred. Had Jinnah lived, he probably would have managed to create the sacred tradition of constitutionalism, but he died in the middle of trying hold Pakistan together in wake of problems created by partition. Liaqat Ali Khan could have succeeded had he been a stronger personality, but you will have to agree that the destruction of Pakistan`s democracy starts with Ghulam Muhammad, and it was Ayub Khan who put the final nail in coffin.

My assertion is that if Musharraf guides the nation out of the current mess, holds fresh elections, and then gets elected as President after retiring from the Army, and occupies that position for say two terms as constitutionally elected head of the state, he might just give the the tradition of Democracy that sacred spirit which has so far been lacking.

Let us see the example of other nations... Had Washington not presided over the Union with Alexandar Hamilton on his side, Democracy wouldnt have flourished in the US. Had there been no De Gaulle, there would be no Democratic France.

-YLH

Hasan Sharif,

Whatever the case, Benazir is better than your daddy Nawaz Sharif anyday.

Perhaps Leghari put it the best at the first meeting of the `Millat` party in 1998 at Mr Rao Amjad Ali`s front lawn:

`The difference between the PPP, and the PML(N) is that whereas PPP atleast has an agenda and a sense of direction, PML(N) is without it, devoid of it, Nawaz Sharif is a man without intelligence. `

-YLH

Eklavya,

re: post on BB

To some extent I agree with you. There seems to be a dynamic/syndrome in developing countries(Pakistan, the Phillipines, Indonesia, Guyana) in which a daughter or wife becomes a leader of the country that her husband or father was. There seems to be an aspect of retributive justice in the daughter/wife being elected to that leadership position. Of course, a platform based on that concept is not enough, especially in countries that are perpetually destabilized by the religious fanatics, military leaders(sorry guys), drug runners and extremely weak infrastructures. Add a blighted economy and you have pretty much the same disasters that take place under any leader. IMHO, the case with these women leaders is public perception. They are no better or worse than the guy before or after them. The fact that they were women elected on a tie to their male relative gives their regimes a particular aspect. Of course in BB`s case her husband was an esp. destabilizing presence, from what I have heard, in several disturbing ways.

regards

tvarad:

The point is totally lost on people like you.

The fact remains that Indians like you are obsessed with your hatred for Pakistan, and there is no explaining why... We dont see any Pakistanis on Indian sites, whereas your kind of Indians come to chowk to provoke Pakistanis....

Again, I want the INDIANS to come to Chowk but to exchange views... I love people like Eklavya, Shammi, Stuka, Dost Mittar, Zafar Al talib etc who are Indians and who have taught me a lot.. but when Indians like you come on with hate filled rhetoric against Pakistan, I wonder why you are here, if you hate us so much.

So you see no one is trying to make this site his or her own `fiefdom`... the fact is that anyone who comes to chowk is well aware that this is a site where you will come across Pakistanis... if you hate us so much, dont come. If you do come, then try to control the venomous snakes of hate.

-YLH

Re : Ras Saddiqui and naivete

Ras, You accuse me of this ``roughneck mentality``, as if it were a bad thing. Au contraire! I am rather proud of this inherent ability to fearlessly call a spade a spade. I like to think of it as most character building. You know you ought to try it sometime. However, unlike yourself, at the very least I am not a psychophantic dupatta-carrier of an aging, dareisay ``hag``; not to mention the fact that I have adequate conscience and integrity to not live in a fool`s utopia, willing to gloss over history in a futile bid to aid and abet a known criminal fugitive form Pakistani justice(is that any oxymoron?)

I feel, we at Stanford achieved something positive by exposing this liar of many faces. You should have been there to see the Americans all curious to see why the Pakistanis were asking her the toughest questions and why she was having to squirm and squeal. She curtailed the Q&A session after she decided to cut her losses and make a qucik exit. So much for her charcater and integrity and that of her supporters.

Nations deserve their leaders. With sentimental, albeit educated fools like you asking her back, for a third time, what hope in hell does Pakistan have. Surely none!

Yours amusedly,

Asim

Reply #: 120

semipreciousme

anNy:

“when i met benazir, she was dressed uuugly..real uugly and her shoes were even uglier...”

….i swear….i’ve never seen a woman with such baaaad taste….i mean polka dots and puffed sleeves???…blech….

ps ….and that ubiquitous red/pink lipstick and those horn-rimmed glasses do NOT help matters….

pps…..end of Fashion 101, for now…:)



SPM,

In the absence of any Miss World beuty queen in Pakistan,why are you trying to look for fashion pointers in Benazir ,the most famous pakistani woman.She is not famous b/c of her looks but a politician etc.

AnNy drools over her feet ,you criticize her lipstick choice ,how many ways you want to split her .As a statement of Pakistani fashion,beuty,women lib,women politician,famous daughter & only womanP.M. Give her a break!!

Guys, quit fighting over whether this is a Pakistani site or not. Yes, it is. No, it is not. What difference does it make?

Ras, thanks for the heads up on Salman Ahmad`s appearance on ``Politically Incorrect``. I watched it and had to squirm I`m afraid. Let me say up front that I really like Junoon. Poor Salman tried his best but got mauled, is the way I saw it. Not because he was wrong in his answers, but my feeling was that he was not prepared to answer what seemed to be real meaty questions that he should have jumped on: Why are the Muslims not standing up to the extremists, and could not answer the purely ``Ramboesque`` approaches put forth by Gene Simmons and Bill Maher. To be fair, the approach of the panelists is to go hammer and tongs, and not a diplomatic debate, but still ...

anNy:

“when i met benazir, she was dressed uuugly..real uugly and her shoes were even uglier...”

….i swear….i’ve never seen a woman with such baaaad taste….i mean polka dots and puffed sleeves???…blech….

ps ….and that ubiquitous red/pink lipstick and those horn-rimmed glasses do NOT help matters….



pps…..end of Fashion 101, for now…:)

anNy:

“when i met benazir, she was dressed uuugly..real uugly and her shoes were even uglier...”

….i swear….i’ve never seen a woman with such baaaad taste….i mean polka dots and puffed sleeves???…blech….

ps ….and that ubiquitous red/pink lipstick and those horn-rimmed glasses do NOT help matters….



pps…..end of Fashion 101, for now…:)

Let me go out on a limb here, on subject that is mostly mystery to me.

I agree that Benazir was probably quite corrupt, or at least did not come in the way of her husband`s extremely corrupt practices. However, on a number of occasions she has claimed that many of her government`s policies, both internal and external, were thrust upon her. She was given no choice. Now, I know that weakness is no excuse in anybody, least of all in those of aspiring to be leaders. Combine weakness with corruption, and you are disaster on your hands. But could it be that she gets dumped on more because she is a woman?

P.S. Anybody who has beautiful eyelashes and pretty feet already has a headstart in my book.

RE: Reply #: 109 ylh

``Some Indians are going to jump up and say that `No this is not a Pakistani site` well thats not what the media is saying ..``

Quote: www.chowk.com, an internet magazine which devotes itself to Pakistani affairs.``

If you look at the main page you will see at least two articles devoted to India, written by Indians. Do get your facts straight before you spout off. Here`s a quote from the Chowk official editorial welcome page:

``Chowk is a community with unstinted interaction on every article, survey, section, topic. Besides the utter rejection of the obviously intolerable (hate rhetoric, racism, personal slander/abuse), only one consideration governs all interaction on Chowk. It also helps define the term Chowkwala (Chowk dweller). A Chowkwala is anyone who understands and accepts that all are welcome to read, write and think as Chowkwalas. A Chowkwala who deliberately and maliciously makes others unwelcome, does not exist. Neither shall his/her interaction.``

Try to aspire to the higher purpose of this valuable site rather than trying to make it your personal fiefdom.

Stuka,

I am of the impression that you are of the sikh faith. If so, you are most welcome to stay with me in Pakistan if you want to visit the holy sites.

-YLH

Freesoul # 2 + # 47

“The Taliban policy of the ISI and Pakistan Army formed in her 2nd rule with no opposition from the PPP”

Quite correct. It takes a person of above average IQ to understand the nuances of political necessity and survival during the changing winds. Maybe that time has come for Pakistanis?


Romair #3

Can’t say that I was surprised in reading your reply. Good luck to all Pakistanis these
days, especially your the people in uniform (they sure will need it).

hamidm #4

You do care whether you admit it or not. Yours are amongst the few interacts on CHOWK that I read with a great deal of interest.

Ali1 #5

The whole Bay Area was stinking because of the weather. Sacramento had a beautiful clear, crisp day when Benazir was here.

Kafir k khan # 6

“she is on the payroll”…
Yes, she did make a bit of money speaking at two places in one day. Please report it to NAB. This kind of CORRUPTION has to stop.

Ferozk # 7

BB will have to change too Feroz. And where do we differ on Kashmir?

Veeresh # 8

We are all continuing to learn a great deal in South Asia. Maybe in a few more
Years we will have it right and I can come to Delhi and try your fine kababs.

afaruqui # 9

Hope to see some more of your writing soon. You did not get the opportunity to witness the response that 2000+ American women at this convention in Sacramento gave her.
I guess that they do not read Stanley Wolpert or Burki…

Hobbyty # 12
You did make a strong point here

Scout # 13

Did you get a chance to see Salman Ahmad of Junoon on Politically Incorrect?

Waheed # 14

I should know as a journalist not to praise Benazir? I praised her here because I care
about Pakistan period.

Ordinary # 15

I would not be as pessimistic as you are. You take the easy way out in your reply.

Mohajir # 16.

The king of the cut and paste on CHOWK still rules. I disliked Indira then and still do.

YLH # 17 and MANY other replies

How does one comment on YLH? Like the energizer battery he keeps going and ….

Tvarad # 20

Agree with some of what you wrote.


AI # 22 and #23

The world has not changed but appears to be in the process of change. Benazir has to learn to adapt. I think that just maybe she is trying..

Tahmed321 #25, # 59 wrote

“Benazir belongs in the dustbin of history” .
Many Indian opinion writers say the same about Pakistan. We cannot accept this notion.
In # 59 I agree with you.

Shammi # 26

Good point.

Syed Ahmed # 27

You have made some valid observations here, but you cannot blame Benazir for the carnage in Karachi.

Urstruly # 28

Still trying to recover from “the day when Pinky broke my heart”?

Sarwari # 31

Thanks. I feel like a kid in the barn for writing this report, but I will continue to stand
Behind it. Pakistan is important enough for some to take such heat on a unpopular subject.

Hasan #32

You seem to have summed up the reasons for justifying your stand. But do think of the environment in which this report was written.

SameerJB # 37 wrote:

“Her party’s decent showing in the LB polls was more of an anti-Musharraf vote than anything else”

You’re clutching at straws here JB. An Murtaza’s murder is yet to be solved.

AnNy # 39

I did see her eyelashes.

Sac # 41

We have not been hearing much from you lately on CHOWK.

You wrote “in the meantime, the country slips slowly into an abyss”.
That is one reason why I wrote this report. I fear for Pakistan at the
moment..

hamzad afaqui # 60

Please find something longer to cut and paste. Maybe the entire English
Dictionary.

Nameless # 70

Ever heard of the Ganga incident?

Lajwanti #75

At least learn HOW to cut and paste.


Asim Hayat various replies..

Beyond hope. Roughneck mentality when it comes to BB or KGS.

Zico # 83

Humor = 0

anNY #105 ``id personally love to see her fry ``

Or at least given the Heimlich maneuver until she coughs out what she knows about her husband`s money making schemes.

Zico,

Man look whose talking... Indians are the ones who are still jumping up and down trying to pin Lies and nonsense on Pakistan... Hope you will try facing the truth, when you come out from the facade of secular democracy that your Hindu fundamentalist government has put on the world.

-YLH

Conservatism will whither away :

The touching story of Shakeela Rasheed,

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/review/review5.htm

This woman has a lot in common with my mother. When my mother topped the Rawalpindi Board Matriculation examinations, her conservative shia family from Jauharabad started looking for a nice women`s college in Lahore. So when after FSc my mother got admission in King Edward Medical College Lahore, my grandfather refused to let her enroll putting her instead in the Lahore College of Women. But conspiring with her brother who went to School at Government College and then Punjab University, my mother managed to enroll into King Edward Medical College secretly. It must have been quite a site, my mother Burqah Clad in an unfamiliar city in the top elite institution of Pakistan.

The burqah went soon enough, under the influence of her class mates, my mom discarded that mostrosity in few months, with a fierce independence so much so, that when the Iranian revolution came and my mother was on deputation there, she took on the Mullahs refusing to clad herself in Hijab.

-YLH

RE: Reply #: 104 AeishA

``Instead of just 500(a pathetic measley number in a country of 1 bn.)we wiil gladly feel relieved by your absence among ppl of MUSLIM FAITH.``

It is vermin like you who are the arch-enemies of the glorious Muslim culture of the sub-continent which has now been reduced to such a pathetic state. Those kids who are being spoon-fed illiterate nonsense in Madrassas and encouraged to spit out bile and venom at all kinds of imaginary enemies just like you could have been the doctors, engineers and future leaders of Pakistan; yet they are being robbed of their future to feed the voracious appetite of the elitist leeches who have sucked the country dry.

Well, the chickens are coming home to roost. The storm created by your compatriots is soon going to swallow people like you too.

tvrad,

assumptions assumptions huh...I am an urbanite through and through... My mother is a doctor, and my father is a businessman.

As for oppressing the haris, oh you mean the `City of Joy` style? The way in Calcutta money lenders do?

I have never been to Indian message boards, and I never felt the need to. As for the net being my grandfather`s property, I wonder what gave you that impression... I was merely suggesting something which is obvious... you are on a Pakistani site...

Some Indians are going to jump up and say that `No this is not a Pakistani site` well thats not what the media is saying ..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_477000/477539.stm

Quote: www.chowk.com, an internet magazine which devotes itself to Pakistani affairs.

http://www.indian-express.com/ie/daily/19991017/ige17012.html

Quote: Chowk, Pakistan`s premier Internet magazine

So dont get me wrong... you are most welsocme here... but to accuse Pakistan of obsession with India is not fair... atleast to people like me who can give a rats rearside what happens to India ...

Learn some respect, some manners.. avoid attributing your own shortcomings to us.

Bong-Dongs:

``I remember Mr Hamdani having some doubts about the Javed Nasir - SGPC link. The following from the latest TFT might help:``

Javed Nasir had no connection with SGPC(Shiromani Gurudwara Prabandhak Commitee). He was made President of PGPC (Pakistan Gurudwara Prabandhak Commitee)This whole idea of PGPC came from one crook called GS Dhillon who lives in Washington DC. There has been some progress though in co-ordination with SGPC in recent past, hopefully improving the situation for Sikh pilgrims.

Sameer:

, I would grant you, stuka, shankar and at least 500 other intelligent Indians honorary citizenship of Pakistan and kick out 500mullahs to Afghanistan.

The feeling is very much mutual janaab, about you and and many others.

THIS WHAT YOUR NEIGHBOURS THINK OF YOU PAKIS & MUSLIM-iSLAM IN PARTICULAR.

SWEET TALK MAY TEMPORARILY MAY PUT YOU TO SLEEP,BUT YOU MAY NOT WAKE UP ALIVE .TRY TO LISTEN TO SOME UNPALATABLE ,HARSH,HURTFULL NOISE SOMETIME ,IT MAY KNOCK YOU TO YOUR SENSES



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[] Religion and civilisation - II Hindu



INDEPENDENCE BROUGHT some relief, but the age-old issues have yet to be resolved in this era of globalisation. A tradition-bound society, with its multi-faceted personality, is still struggling to reconcile tradition with modernity. True, India adopted a democratic and secular Co...

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Sat, Nov 03, 2001





[] Arab Muhameed? on Religion and civilisation - II [] Lal Salaam on Religion and civilisation - II [] INDEPENDEN CE BROUGHT? on Religion and civilisation - II [] peter_repeater on Religion and civilisation - II [] Only Koran on Religion and civilisation - II [] Tricky Arab Muslim on Religion and civilisation - II [] Sonic on Religion and civilisation - II [] iluvindia on Religion and civilisation - II [] Aditya on Religion and civilisation - II [] why? on Religion and civilisation - II

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Sat, Nov 03, 2001





[] Arab Muhameed? comments on Religion and civilisation - II (Hindu)

Muslims lie! Muslim cheat. Muslims invade some one else country & kill people of that land but they want to keep Mecca as pure muslim land!

Pakistan - pure land of Arab islam!

Hasan the muslim from Arab Mecca lies, cheats, and forgets history of India. As a muslim he can think only Baber - holy Baber. For him history of India starts from a muslim. Hassan is a sleek jhiadi blames only Hindus. Indirectly what he says is submit to Mecca islam & muslim.

He blames Hindus for all the trubles in India - typical muslim invader lier. He should not blame Hindus for every thing. Hindus are not the one going to Mecca and claiming as Hindu holy land saying jhiad. .

Hasan the sleek muslim lier wants to twist the history of India as a typical muslim who lies saying Allha is the only God anf Mecca Prophet is the only prophet and Koran is the only book!

Intolerent imperialist racist muslim invader terrorists terrorized India for 900 years.

.

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[] Lal Salaam comments on Religion and civilisation - II (Hindu)

create what the historian Romila Thapar characterises as `syndicated, semitised Hinduism`

Sounds like she is talking about the commie pinko pseudo secularism that she espouses.

Hasan carefully skips over the first Indian holocaust, the Islamic invasion of the subcontinent. The numbers of lives decimated and the wide spread destruction of the Hindu cultural heritage in the North is unparalleled. The second holocaust before and after partition pales in comparison.

It speaks volumes to the resilency of the Hindu civilization that it managed to survive the initial millennium-long onslaught, unlike other classic civilizations like the Persians or the Egyptians or Babylonian/fertile crescent civilizations.

Hasan needs to take a long hard look at Pakistan and Bangladesh to understand why the secularism he clings to has nothing to do with Muslims or a ``syncretic`` society, but everything to do with the Hindu culture and civilization being dominant in India.

There is an unfortunate backlash among many Hindus because of the unceasing hostility of Muslim Pakistan, and the belligerent uncompromising attitude of many Indian Muslims. Add to this unsavory mix ``Hindu`` pseudo-seculars who are only happy to shrilly condemn any minor Hindu infraction, while sticking their heads in the sand at Muslim (and in many cases, Christian) anti-secular behaviour. Post Your Response | View Responses | Coffeehouse| Forward





[] INDEPENDEN CE BROUGHT? comments on Religion and civilisation - II (Hindu)

INDEPENDENCE BROUGHT what? Freedom for muslim Pakistan to form islamic republic Jhiadi state , Hindu cleansing in Pakistan area, later in Bengladash, then in Kashmir! India got struck with islamic civil law, jhiadis who can order Indians what movies to watch, where to go, what book to read, tell Indians where ever Mecca invader Baber walked becomes Mecca holy place and watch Pakistan flags fly in mini Pakistan! Last one Arab Mecca muslim telling Indians how to think and how to obey Arab Mecca.

Muslim Pakistan wants again islamic conquest of India and part of new muslim empire! Pakistan the new Baber!

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[] peter_repeater comments on Religion and civilisation - II (Hindu)

oracle: the use of the handle ``Mushirul Hassan`` does not prove that the author is blowing his own horn. Moreover, the author spells his name as `Hasan` and not `Hassan`.Post Your Response | View Responses | Coffeehouse| Forward





[] Only Koran comments on Religion and civilisation - II (Hindu)

Muslims in India - `` A tradition-bound society`` obey only Arab Mecca Koran not Indian constitution.

Only Arab Mecca Muhameed and Baber can tell us what muslims can do.

- A tradition-bound society

Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and Taliban have - A tradition-bound society & multi-faceted personality,

Muslims are - A tradition-bound society - only islam only Allha.

``era of globalisation`` Koran belives in it.. Mecca, Pakistan and muslims in India belives in it.

That is why muslims in India hack Hindu priests head in Hindu Temples of Kashmir!

That is the reason muslim Pakistani killed millions of Hindus in Bengladash before the war . - holy war

Globalization of Allha is good for all - jhiad - holy war.

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[] Tricky Arab Muslim comments on Religion and civilisation - II (Hindu)

``India`s agony over religion is not yet over. The sacred rivers flow from their sources up in the Himalayas, but their water is contaminated by the bodies killed in caste and Hindu-Muslim violence. The road to the sacred sites is wide open, but it is fouled by the casteist and communal publicists. The bell rings in the temples and the mosques, but the

politics of hate has reached their precincts. ``

Arab muslims in India never do any thing wrong.

All the evil in India are due to Hindus of India.

There is no blood flow in Pakistan! because ? Arab Islamic state of Pakistan! They killed Hindus & kicked out Hindus and no Hindus are in Pakistan. Pakistan is a islamic republic.

So get rid of all Indian Hindus from India. & make it as Arab Mecca Islamic state of India..Arab Mecca Islam is secular & only muslim man is a secular person.

Only Baber from Mecca. Only Arab Allha! Only Arab Muhameed India only for muslims like Pakistan! That is real path to modern secularism.

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[] Sonic comments on Religion and civilisation - II (Hindu)

Mr. Why

are you serious ?

India was, is and will be secular.

We gave

so much understanding and patience to

all religions and people - only problem

is this is not a one-way-street dude.

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[] iluvindia from west columbia, SC comments on Religion and civilisation - II (Hindu)

i second what Aditya said..and also we want true ``secularism`` not just lip service..tell me why are Muslims first to oppose Uniform Civil code. why don`t they realize Country comes first. religion should be within the four walls of their home.

Learn to love country. One should be proud of being an Indian first and then Muslim /hIndu etc etc

Jai Hind !!Post Your Response| View Responses| Coffeehouse| Forward





[] Aditya from West Lafayette IN comments on Religion and civilisation - II (Hindu)

Mr. Why

You should read well before you comment. Nobody here is against secularism. We are pointing to the distortion of historical facts. Shame on you dude.Post Your Response| View Responses| Coffeehouse| Forward





[] why? from themoon comments on Religion and civilisation - II (Hindu)

Can`t see anything wrong with Mushirul Hasan`s well-written article. Guess the Sangh parivar has so succesfully brain-washed Hindus into this feeling of insecurity in their own country that they can`t stand anything but the most right-wing Muslim bashing stuff.

Shame on these guys! Secularism is India`s weapon against Pakistan. Use it well instead of breeding revolt in India by continually blaming Muslims for everything.Post Your Response| View Responses| Coffeehouse| Forward





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[] Religion and civilisation - II Hindu



INDEPENDENCE BROUGHT some relief, but the age-old issues have yet to be resolved in this era of globalisation. A tradition-bound society, with its multi-faceted personality, is still struggling to reconcile tradition with modernity. True, India adopted a democratic and secular Co...

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Reader Comments



Fri, Nov 02, 2001





[] Aditya on Religion and civilisation - II [] anti-Hindu newspaper on Religion and civilisation - II [] oracle on Religion and civilisation - II [] TrueIndia! on Religion and civilisation - II

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[] Aditya from West Lafayette IN comments on Religion and civilisation - II (Hindu)

Ah! That reads like a passage straight from the history textbooks written by the despicable marxistsPost Your Response| View Responses| Coffeehouse| Forward





[] anti-Hindu newspaper comments on Religion and civilisation - II (Hindu)

i am not surprised that this crappy article has appeared in the anti-hindu Hindu newspaper....it has commie editor like N.Ram...why bother reading it??Post Your Response | View Responses | Coffeehouse| Forward





[] oracle comments on Religion and civilisation - II (Hindu)

What a complete sanitization of Muslim atrocities against Hindus during Mughal rule! Why does the author not mention forced conversion and massacres of Hindus and widespeard temple destruction during this time period?

If Islam was ``quick to adapt itself to the local cultural and social milieu`` than why did they commit these atrocities? Islam never adapted or contributed to Hindu civilization, its goal was to wipe out all remmants of non-Islamic culture, as described by VS Naipal in his book ``Excursions among the converted peoples``

Furthermore, this article is a perfect example of Huntington`s ``clash of civilations``. How appropriate that an article written by a muslim living in India seeks to distort Indian history by leaving out any fact which would cast Islam in a bad light. I suggest that the author read Rushdie`s essay in the NY Times and encourage introspection among muslims rather than recreating Indian history.

Incidentally, I love how the author toots his own horn by posting his own articles on Sulekha.

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[] TrueIndia! comments on Religion and civilisation - II (Hindu)

True India adopted terrorist Mecca Allha Muhameed Koran in Indian constitution. Mecca Arab Allha and Muhameed only ! India is a slave of Arab civilization and land of cowards!

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[]

[]

tahmedsaab

even dressed ugly she came across as impressive with her now humble and friendly now im something attitude..also she spoke very propah..clipped accent..charming see thee...but ure right about her being a bad leader...sad no, how with everything on her side, she still screwed us over so bad when she could have made such a big difference? id personally love to see her fry (stay away soyaoil)

Reply #: 10 Zico

``[Sorry dyslexic one, thats where you just showed your backside to everybody, because I wrote it all myself, which makes you pathetic and a fool.``]]



Zico .

JUST ZIPP IT, ZICO or ZIPPO

I can sue according to American with Disability Act1991 you moron

And Dyslexic Happen to be your President ,idiot

Some Talented Dyslexics

Inventors/Engineers/

Scientists: Albert Einstein

Thomas Edison

Alexander Graham Bell



Artists: Leonardo da Vinci

Walt Disney



Military/Political

Strategists: General George Patton

Winston Churchill

Woodrow Wilson

Performers: Cher

Whoopi Goldberg

Danny Glover



Athletes: Greg Louganis

Bruce Jenner

Jackie Stewart

Having dyslexia won`t make every dyslexic a genius

Re; ylh

blah blah blah...more if-and-but arguments

ylh;

No need to apologise. Pakistanis are having some trouble facing the truth these days. Its just a little fun, anyway. You have got to have a sense of humour, surely, being a Paki in the USA today?

Bhardwaj (illiterate)#

``But you plagarised it from posting in SULEKHA ,which would have been alright ,if you had given the due credit of copy rigt or acknowledgement``

Sorry dyslexic one, thats where you just showed your backside to everybody, because I wrote it all myself, which makes you pathetic and a fool.

just kidding Pakistanis

Too bad! We are still obsessed with hero worship, waiting for our hero coming on a horseback and delivering us from our miseries. Today he is Ataturk wannabe, tomorrow a feudal queen. We should support institutions of people power rather than individuals.

Shammi: Sometime I wish you were a Pakistani. Your posts make lot more sense than utopian dreamers of my homeland. If I had a way, I would grant you, stuka, shankar and at least 500 other intelligent Indians honorary citizenship of Pakistan and kick out 500mullahs to Afghanistan.

Re: Asim Hayat:

``...IRONIC THAT SHE HERSEFL WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ``TALIBAN``...``

I do not believe that any civilian PM of Pakistan has ever had control over the ISI or Pakistan`s nuclear/Kashmir policies. You can blame Bhutto for a lot of the things, but perhaps not the Taleban. Even Musharraf seems not to have full control over the ISI -- did you read the Washington Times` story?

I remember Mr Hamdani having some doubts about the Javed Nasir - SGPC link. The following from the latest TFT might help:

``General Javed Nasir is out of Auqaf after a disastrous tenure and an abortive gamble with the setting up of Pakistan`s own Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee.``

Re : Ras Siddiqui

Ms Benazir Bhutto has many duppata - carriers, in the many Pakistani men who admire her and support her. You, Sir are simply one of them despite having been duped, tricked, deceived, robbed of your dignity and honour by an embezzler par excellence. and that too a woman. Granted she is much smarter than her supporters, but then again someone has to support her, someone has to lavish her unmerited praise by writing exaggerated tributes, someone has to ask her to come back and take a crap all over them. Better them than me, Sir!

That is the reason that the Pakistanis at Stanford for a chnage became organised enough to arrange for a ``lifting of the veil behind the monstraous face``. I think the Stanford american community went away with a better persepective of our first Islamic national swindler(ess?). Thye certainly felt curious as to why there was a barrage of questions being directed against the duppata clad (ex-miniskirts wearing fashion chic of the 70`s in Ney York), and those too by Pakistanis.

ON TOP OF ALL HER SHAMELESS SELF GLORIFICATION AND DENIGRATION OF MY COUNTRY AS AN EVIL PLACE GOOD FOR NOTHING BUT FOR HARBOURING TERRORISTS SHE HAD THE UNMITIGATING TEMERITY TO SUGGEST THAT SHE HERSELF WAS THE TARGET OF TWO ASSASINATION ATTEMPTS BY THE TALIBANS. IRONIC THAT SHE HERSEFL WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ``TALIBAN``. IRONIC THAT SHE MANAGES TO DUCK HER QUESTIONS OF HER INEPTITUDE IN REFORMING THE COUNTRY FOR THE BETTER TWO TIMES, NOT ONCE. IRONIC THAT EDUCATED FOOLS LIKE YOU STILL WOULD LOVE TO LOOK UP TO THIS, THIS DEMAGOGUE TO WREAK HAVOC ON THE REMNANT WEALTH WITHIN PAKISTANI EXCHEQUER, IRONIC THAT YOU WOULD LET HER LOOSE IN ARRANGING FOR GENOCIDE OF A PEOPLE, WHO ARE NOT AS FORTUNATE ENOUGH TO BE ENCONSED IN A COMFORTBALE LIFESTYLE MILES AWAY IN SAN JOSE. IRONIC THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE A SAY IN HOW THE COUNTRY SHOULD BE RUN, FROM THE COMFORTS OF YOUR LIVING ROOM. IRONIC THAT YOU CAN STILL PRAISE HER AFTER ALL THE EVIDENCE IN SWITZERLAND, AND HER MILLION DOLLAR PURCHASES OF DIAMOND NECKLACES FROM HARRODS. SHE IS NO DIFFERENT THAN YOUR LOHAR MIAN. ALL THESE CROOKS NEED TO BE PURGED, from the country.

PAKISTAN WOULD RATHER HAVE A KEMAL ATA TURK WANNABE AT ITS HELM THAN FEUDAL DYNASTY ``LOSER``.

Sincerely,

Asim

P.S How did you benefit from Bhutto`s rule! I know we all suffered during her times, despite my elevated expectations as a young man that i attributed to this notorious ``daughter of the East``.

RE: Reply #: 90 ylh

``If you really think we Pakistanis are obsessed with you guys and not the other way around, what are you doing on this board... and why is it that there are Indians on every Pakistani site, but very few pakistanis ever go to Indian sites?

There is only one nation in the subcontinent which is obsessed with the other, and that aint Pakistan.``

Believe me, I was out of all boards on the net until Kargil which brings me back to my contention that you guys have to stop biting when we Indians are not looking. It`s not nice. ;-).

It seems to me that your feudal mentality of wanting to own everything around you will not go away even with education. The net isn`t your grandfather`s property. Why don`t you go back to your village or wherever you come from in Pakistan and ply your penchant for ownership on the Haris or whatever. It ain`t gonna work on the net.

YLH:

Have you read the analysis in the Friday Times, the one by Khalid Ahmed, specifically where he talks about the ISI brigadier involved in the Bombay bomb blasts, and the resultant current residence of Dawood Ibrahim in Karachi.

Would you care to refute that analysis with facts that you may have. You can take the easy way out and give me 10 gaalis, but I am talking about a specific article, in a Pakistani magazine. If you like, I can post the relevant portion on Chowk, or need be the whole article.

Re: YLH

These are confusing times. Two years ago, when the crisis was not grave, I criticized Musharraf`s takeover. Now, that that crisis HAS become grave, and in large part due to unaccountable ISI`s meddling in Afghanistan , Musharraf is indeed the lesser of two evils - dictatorship vs. fundamentalist takeover. But, make no mistake, it was a lack of democracy that brought Pakistan to the current impasse, in the first place.

Today, there was an article in the Washington Times that the White House knows about the help that the certain agencies of the Govt. of Pakistan still continue to give Taleban. (http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20011102-22061210.htm)

That is the reason why Musharraf has no choice -- he HAS to kow-tow to the US, or else make Pakistan a US target. This is the end result of bankrupt foreign policy authored by those in uniform. They have mortgaged Pakistan`s sovereignty for the promise of an unreliable, stubborn ally. A democratic regime would have not punched above its weight, and would have kept Pakistan`s national interest in consideration, not some rogue agency`s. Today, Pakistan is at an abyss. It is Musharraf or ?. There are no institutions as a fall back option. That is why, even though the person of Musharraf may be good, the Office of President (former CE) is is in disrepute. What may appear to be expedient now, may very well sow the seeds for a disaster tomorrow. That is why I am so uncompromising on basic representative democracy. ONCE THIS CRISIS IS OVER, THE US MUST PRESSURE MUSHARRAF TO RESTORE DEMOCRACY. HE SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO BACK OUT OF HIS OCTOBER 2002 COMMITMENTS.

Arrested Psycho,

Even before you can see inside anyone else, you have revealed to us all what lies inside you - absolute filth.

You give psychos a bad name. The only explanation you need offering is one for your nauseating existence. Spare us your ``expertise.`` There might be a collective puke on Chowk.

Does anyone else read this mans column in Indian Express ?

http://www.indian-express.com/columnists/mush/index.html

anNY #84 The one-time I had the chance to see her up close (4 seats away, around a square conference table) when she met some of us Pakis in the US, BB did strike an attractive figure. She came in late to the meeting, by herself, apologizing profusely, and reminded me of a college student coming late for class. But her clever answers to questions posed by us (most of them quite blunt, in the same vein as some of the posts about her on this board) assured me that the private person was the same as the public person - uncaring for Pakistan, and eager to somehow get a third chance. Citizen BB may be OK, but Prime Minister BB has had 2 chances and that is one chance more than enough for any person, even BB.

Zico

Sorry, the Sarwari post still stands valid.. as for your post, it is a bunch of crap (read fertile Indian imagination).

-YLH

tvrad,

If you really think we Pakistanis are obsessed with you guys and not the other way around, what are you doing on this board... and why is it that there are Indians on every Pakistani site, but very few pakistanis ever go to Indian sites?

There is only one nation in the subcontinent which is obsessed with the other, and that aint Pakistan.

Please dear Shammi, and idiot saxena,

Do not think that for a moment I commend the Military takeover, but I know that the Military takeover was the lesser of the two evils. Given the option between a Democratically elected Nawaz Sharif planning on becoming the `Amirulmomineen` of Pakistan, and a Kemalist General-dictator, I think I would choose Kemalist general anyday.

Democracy is dear to me, but its not a priority especially when our people in Pakistan have not yet achieved that political culture... nor do I think the continuation of democracy unchecked would create that political culture, because we see in India that Democracy has only moved the country from bad to worse when it comes to the issues of human rights etc.

My only assertion was that since Musharraf has sought legitimacy from the Supreme Court, it is only fair to assume that the `fundamental rights` chapter of the Pakistan constitution stands despite the `suspension`.

-YLH

Re: Arrested Dev

``5/ahaan--once i came across a whole porno site devoted to feet FETISH``

so this is a regular ritual for you?

Zico # 83

;-)

...........................................................................

Just kidding Pakistanis. Just a little fun.



ZICO,

if you were just kidding ,it would be not as pathetic.

But you plagarised it from posting in SULEKHA ,which would have been alright ,if you had given the due credit of copy rigt or acknowledgement.

PATHETIC

dear arrested development

you are saying that as a man youve never noticed pretty feet in women? u are a very sad case then....theres nothing as feminine as nice, well kept feet or a pretty ankle...when i met benazir, she was dressed uuugly..real uugly and her shoes were even uglier...but since it was an informal dinner party she soon removed the shoes and while evryone was drooling over her solitaire, i couldnt stop looking at her feet..flawless, creamy, pedicured feet with nice light silverish pink nail colour..alright?

please keep me away from your porno thoughts next time...ask for an explaination if you dont understand something

Top Ten Tips For Ambitious Pakistani Generals

10. Colonise Afghanistan for ten years, be complicit in massacre of 10,000 Hazara Shias in Mazar-e-Sharif. This is the price of ``strategic depth``.

9. Allow your country to be used by Arab militants.

8. Explode afew bombs in Kashmir, kill afew Hindu sheperds.

7. Sit back while your friends blow up Buddhist staues.

6. Persecute Ahmedhis/Christians/Hindus.

5. Massacre Christians in church and blame it on India.

4. Label everyone who disagrees with you a ``Zionist`` or “Hindu” .

3. Proclaim the greatness of your state and its inviolability.

2. 5h1t in your pants like a cowardly little scarecrow when you receive a midnight call from Texas saying ``Let us use you like a condom again or we blast you to pieces``

1. Betray your whole Ummah like an Uncle Tom and blame the Hindus for everything afflicting Pakistan from their constipation to September 11 itself (which was a Jewish conspiracy to defame Islam, of course)

;-)

...........................................................................

Just kidding Pakistanis. Just a little fun.

Arrested and Kafir (#71, #72)

Come off it, guys! It was just a bloody innocuous comment. If it isn`t something up your alley, let it go, move on.

Check out Benazir`s article on

http://slate.msn.com/code/ThisJustIn/ThisJustIn.asp?Show=9/21/2001&idMessage

=8335

A Loser in Waiting - a critique on Ms. Bhutto by Asim Hayat



I had the distinct displeasure of perusing through the article written by

our notorious daughter of the East, the first Muslimah swindler par

excellence of Pakistan! I feel like asking myself what is the incremental

value that i gained by reading this claptrap, that i did not know before.

what is that esoteric explanation that the good lady gives here that made a

difference in my comprehension of the players and the issues at hand. Sadly,

I cant come up with a single bit of information that added to my perception

of her antics or to the crisis at hand!

Notwithstanding my earlier assessment of her personality traits, Miss Bhutto

managed to reaffirm my hypothesis that she is a conniving, self centred, and

despicable human being! Her half baked rhetoric, her ``bought`` foreign

education, her pleas of having been misunderstood by the illiterate awaam,

coupled with her paltry intelligence makes her armed and dangerous. Her

sheer inability to focus on issues at hand as opposed to attempting to fit

in her myopic agenda is so transparent in this write-up. This article is

based partly on some well known facts and mostly on self serving rhetoric.

What amazes me the most is how craftily she manages to divert the attention

of the reader away from the central raison de etre of her dismissals, (her

avaricious nature to hold on to power and the resources of Pakistan as her

God given inalienable right). But she paints a picture of a helpless damsel

in distress, one who was supposed to have been the target of two

assassinations. Pretty Pathetic! and that the Taliban toppled her

government. She also flamboyantly waves her magic wand of ``Get rid of the

military rule in Pakistan, or else there will be hell``. Not that anyone is

listening to her. Thank God/Allah/Dios/Bhagwan/Khuda for that!

What an absolute waste of all that ``Pakistani revenue``, which went into

procuring a suitable ``foreign`` education at Harvard and Oxford! Just goes to

show that one can take a mule to the edge of the water, but one can not

necessarily make it drink. I sincerely wish, someone with some ``guts`` raise

this article as an issue of discussion at the upcoming talk on Thursday

about her naiveté, in terms of dealing with an international crises. Perhaps

an ``O`` levels student could have done a better job of this superficial

analysis, by possibly having given more thought to developing his ideas

before putting pen to paper.

Ms Bhutto is not a leader by virtue of her words, her character, her

integrity, and her wit, even though she might have severest delusions of

grandeur of being a divinely appointed Prime Minister of Pakistan!

Re: Asim Hayat

I was waiting for you to show up here..

Yes, Musharraf and Pakistanis have no more worries. Asim is right behind them during Pakistan`s current crisis.

Ras

Another perspective on the Bhutto speech at Stanford, for the gullible amongst us!

Salam,

I don`t know if the rest of you thought so but it seemed to me that this

is how part of Benazir`s talk went (if I recall correctly):

She was talking about the madrassahs in Pakistan and the terrorist

mentality they bred, and how they were responsible for toppling her

government twice, and suddenly went on to claim that these very same

terrorists were responsible for US embassy bombings and WTC plane crashes

and everything bad thats happened in the world. Basically what she seemed

to be saying was that everyone in Pakistan except for her and her party

were terrorists and Pakistan was THE breeding ground for them who have

brought so much harm not just to her but to the entire world.

I think that was the one thing that really gave me offence: she accused,

convicted and sentenced Pakistan as the breeding ground for terrorism. I

really hope that that is not what the audience took away from her talk,

and that the flyers we distributed, the questions we asked, and her

consistent self-portrayal as a victim helped undermine the credibility of

her assertions.

All that said, I think Benazir did a good job commenting on what the US

foreign policy in the Middle East and Kashmir should be. She also did an

excellent job of totally stripping the Pakistan judiciary of any

credibility whatsoever. I believe the Hudood laws question was asked not

by a Pakistani but by one of our friendly neighbors. And her answer as to

why she is not in Pakistan facing the corruption charges against her?

Simple: She has 3 kids and a mother to take care of while her husband

languishes in prison.

I heard a lot of people talking about the flyers we distributed. One

person wanted to know where he could get more of the information listed in

the flyers. Others were discussing how they had had no prior knowledge

about a lot of the facts that we presented. After the talk some others

said they were confused by the political facts about her tenures and

Pakistani politics in general : which means we should have included more

political and chronological details to paint a whole picture rather than

having simply concentrated on the negative aspects of her political

career.

All in all, the Americans were there to learn more about the Taliban and

how it all went wrong. The Pakistanis were there to expose Bhutto as a

corrupt politician and a convicted felon. I got the impression that a lot

of people in the audience were irked by the questions dwelling upon the

nitty gritty of Pakistani politics: people would have preferred it if she

had just stuck to the Afghanistan-Pakistan-USA love triangle. The

ruin-Benazir`s-credibility campaign we ran perhaps was information

overdose for quite a few. To be fair, she was the one who started

glorifying her governments` achievements and blaming everyone else for

everything that went wrong in Pakistan and Afghanistan during her talk

(apparently she had warned the US about what would happen in Afghanistan

if they left it in the state they did eventually leave it in)-- and I am

really glad we did not sit tight during Q & A and let her get away with

it.

A friend of mine pointed out that we should not have given Bhutto a chance

to defend herself against the charges during Q & A since she evidently did

a good job of sidestepping the accusations. However, her main defences

were the `innocent until proven guilty` rhetoric and `ruin the

opposition`s credibility` strategy and not a flat out `I did not do so and

so and I will defend myself in any court in the world` assertion, which

the audience hopefully saw through. To sum it up, I think one comment I

overheard says it all: ``They should not have had a talk, they should just

have had the questions and answers session.`` At least it left the audience

thinking.

a concerned student

PS: The following is the list of facts Sheba and I compiled which were

handed out as flyers before the talk.

I am also listing the questions that we came up with, of which questions

1,2 and 4 were asked by our friends in the audience.



BENAZIR BHUTTO: FACTS UNVEILED



* Contrary to her campaign promises, Bhutto did not pass legislation to

repeal any of the severe restrictions of the previous military regime

against women. (Human Rights Watch, August 1999)



* Over 2000 people were killed during her second tenure, from 1993 to

1996, amid charges of extra-judicial killings of her political opponents.

(The Times, London, February 5, 1997)



* A Swiss judge froze Swiss bank accounts in 1997, reportedly containing

$14 million belonging to Benazir Bhutto, her spouse Asif Zardari and her

mother Nusrat Bhutto. (Agence France Presse, December 21, 1997)



* A Swiss judge formally demanded the indictment of Benazir Bhutto in

1998, on money-laundering charges related to alleged kickbacks from two

Swiss firms that led to huge financial losses for the Pakistan national

treasury. (The Daily Telegraph, London, August 20, 1998)



* Bhutto and Zardari were charged with illegally accumulating a fortune

worth more than $100 million while Benazir was in power. (New York Times,

January 9, 1998)

* Benazir and Zardari still face another 9 cases relating to alleged

kickbacks and abuse of power. (Sunday Times, London, April 8, 2001)



* London

Yet another perspective of another attendee of Bhutto`s talk at Stanford.

Here are a few excerpts from her speeches as I remember them as well as some

public comments.

1. ``Luckily, I wasn`t a Prime Minister when Pakistan carried out the N-tests``.

2. ``Pakistan`s International Image worsened from their interference in Kargil``

3. ``Her father from the death cell sent her his last letter quoting some

words from Robert Kennedy!...`` (seemed like he had a lot of time in his last

letter since she read Kennedy`s words in front of American public which was

a longish quote) :)

4. ``Give me constitutional majority and not just legislation majority so

that I can change such controversial laws`` (In response to a question as why

she failed to amend the Hudood ordinance which violates women rights)

5. ``My mother is suffering from Alzheimer, her assets have been confiscated

:( my daughter was 3 when her father went to jail :((, my husband was framed

in a suicide attempt, where in fact his neck and tongue was cut :(((, my

father was hanged :(((((((, I correct you there are about 32 cases against

our family and not just 9 as mentioned by someone in the crowd, ... I was

made to attend cases in Karachi, Lahore, Rawalpindi etc, so I had to travel

every day for it, judges used to listen to myself even after court times

were over since law was more equal for me, I`ve appealed to UN about such

court conduct against myself and have asked them to visit the situation

themselves, your govt found $1500 counterfeit notes from some blah blah

person (she linked that person to her cases i don`t remember how), a colonel

is sitting in the case hearing, normal judges are paid Rs. 22000,

accountability judges were paid Rs 80000 with cars and houses and half a

million worth of other things etc etc... judiciary is bribed blah blah.....

`` (in response to as why she is reluctant to answer when people ask her that

there are 9 cases against her. Here she sought to emotional appeal by almost

crying before telling her tale of misery)

6. ``I support General Musharaf on his decision to support the US``

7. ``Its dictatorship that has led to the creation of terrorists in Pakistan

so it should be ensured that Pakistan returns to democracy``

8. ``I`ve increased literacy by one-third by opening 30000 (wow) schools

funded by the world bank``

My memory fails me from reproducing her quotes verbatim therefore I`ll

summarise some of the other points. She did defend Islam in a positive way

by stating that there is no room for such terrorism and violence as was

witnessed by Sept 11 attacks. She also blamed the Anti-Soviet Coalition for

leaving them alone against terrorists that they themselves created to fight

against the Soviets by brain washing them to fight in the name of Jihaad.

She said that Milatry is responsible for every bad thing happened to

Pakistan and Democracy is badly needed to change things. People should be

allowed to choose what they want.

I heard some American at my back saying ``She speaks well``. Another friend of

that person replied, ``Yeah, she is a politician``. The initial response after

her speech was quite overwhelming by the American public. They got impressed

by her oratory. However, as people started to ask controversial questions

the intensity of clapped increased on questions and lessend on her answered.

In the end, people got out quite unsure as to what she is. Does she really

mean what she says. Why is that most of the pinching questions were asked by

the Pakistanis themselves. I`d leave someone else to complete the picture

here as I am sure the experience of everyone else about this would be quite

different.

An EXECUTIVE SUMMARY of Benazir`s speech earlier at Stanford, by an attendee.

1. Yes there were placards both before and after the speech. Many Stanford

students

saw these placards. We had also distributed flyers titled ``Benazir unveiled``

before the

speech and in fact one person handed it over to Benazir during the Q&A

session.

However, Benazir sneaked in from the backdoor (as usual). So she never saw

the placards.

I think there were some ``dupatta carriers`` who actually drove Benazir from

her hotel to

Stanford.

2. Of course, no BB speech is without self-glorification -- I handed over

Ramzi Yusuf to

US authorities. I had a hotline telephone with Rajiv Gandhi during tensions

between India

and Pakistan. (I wonder if Zardari knew about this? Just kidding.) blah blah

blah.

However, she also made it clear to the American students that Islam is

against any form

of terrorism and that these terrorists do no represent the true values of

Islamic faith.

However, I must say this that BB is a very good speaker. She speaks at a

slow pace emphasizing

each and every word. It also helps her to gather her thoughts when

responding to questions.

I guess those days with debating clubs at Harvard and Oxford did not go

waste after all.

3. Yes, people asked her some critical questions such as Sheba asked her

about

Swiss judges charging her with embezzlement of funds from the National

Treasury

and her 26 bank accounts and 14 properties. Another person asked her about

the 2000 people

that were killed during clashes in Karachi which was kind of a

state-sponsored terrorism

where she was killing her political opponents and innocent civilians. The

Pakistani audience

started clapping during these questions even before she started her

response.

Benazir`s defense was that ``I have opponents just like any other politician``

and that ``I am innocent until proven guilty``

which is bullshit because she has already been proven guilty by both Swiss

and

British judges. Looks like she was unsuccessful in bribing these judges. In

fact,

in her case, it should be ``guilty unless proven innocent.``

Another person asked her about doing nothing to suppress the feudal system

in Pakistan.

Another person asked her about the Hudood Ordinance describing in elaborate

details

that Islam requires 4 witnesses for rape, blah blah blah.

(I don`t understand why every time some Pakistani out of the blue has to

embarrass us

by asking some silly question before the American audience. It happens every

time. Believe me.)

There were two long lines of questioners and when Benazir realized that she

should not expect

many words of praise from this audience, she wrapped up the Q&A after 6,7

questions.

4. I talked to an ABC newsperson as well as a couple of Stanford students

after the speech.

I told them that Benazir is a very smooth talker and that they should not be

deceived by her

speech. I told them that Pakistanis gave her not one, but two chances by

electing her twice

and on both occasions, she let them down miserably. All, she cared about was

how to grow

her personal wealth, power, and property.

I also told them that the US should not worry about there being no democracy

in Pakistan

because Musharraf is already helping the US

by providing them intelligence, airbases, and logistic support against the

terrorists.

So the US doesn`t need to bring Benazir back to power to fight terrorism in

the region.

In fact, it would make things worse.

All of the Americans that I talked to told me that Musharraf seems to be a

sensible person and

that in fact, he is risking assassination by siding with the US. They asked

me if Pakistanis felt

frustrated with US attitude of trying to control Pakistan`s policies by

imposing economic sanctions

whenever it wants and then lifting them when the US has an interest in

Pakistan. They said that even if

US gives aid to Pakistan, the US should not control Pakistan`s policies. US

should

let Pakistani people decide their own destiny. Whether they want democracy

or military rule,

it should be the decision of the Pakistani people, not the US. According to

them, the US should not

repeat the same mistakes it made in Central America.

The ABC newsperson also thought that she was ``pretty.`` So I said, ``Yes,

pretty wicked.``

I also checked out the Stanford Daily that was published on Thursday.

Although the daily had

presented Benazir in a pretty positive manner by putting her picture on the

front page as well

as an ad on the 3rd page, Sheba`s editorial and our own counter-ad on the

5th or 7th page (can`t

remember which page exactly) pretty much exposed Benazir`s corrupt

background. In fact, the daily had changed

Sheba`s article`s heading from ``Beneath the charm`` to ``Benazir has a poor

legacy`` something

and that too not in bold letters. So it was a good thing that we posted a

counter-ad in the daily.

It really brought forward her corrupt background to the readers.

I think we should write more letters to the Stanford Daily exposing

Benazir`s true nature

and emphasizing that although she can charm audience through her speeches

and words, deep down, she is a

very corrupt politician and I would even say that Benazir has a personal

vendetta against

Pakistan because she believes that Pakistanis were responsible for the

execution of her father

and not just Ziaul Haq.

Hope this is a good bed-time reading for you.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The above was in response to my note below.

Notwithstanding the tremendous brouhaha that happened here prior to BiBi`s

address at Stanford, I was kind of expecting that at the very least that

some kind soul might have at the very least given an executive summary of

what actually transpired. So I waited patiently last night. I waited this

morning! I am afraid, I am not a very patient man. This deafening silence at

Pas needs to be reversed.

The writeup does not have to be existential. Something along the lines of

the following inquiry!

1. So what did actually happen? Did the placard guys show up? What was her

reaction and that of her ``supporting`` clique of ``dupatta carriers``?

2. What did she have to say in the speech? Was it as I expect empty rhetoric

coupled with shameless self glorification, given the experience of knowing

the Bibi as we do? Or was there any meat on the bones?

3. Did anyone address any ``in your face`` questions to this demagogue?

4. What did she have to say about those questions?

Bonus Question : What do u think the American audience took away from the

speech?

Or was it all simply a case of much ado about nothing!

Yours curiously,

Asim

The following note was addressed to the Pakistanis at Stanford, within the context of a protest demonstration against this eastern lady-crook. In fact the Pakistanis students at Stanford carried out an much needed information camapaign against the devious Ms Bhutto, by carrying out fdull page ads entitled ``Benazir Beneath the charm``, in the Stanford daily, and alos wrote many articles denouncing her claims of innocence.

When Oedipus realized that he had killed his father unknowingly and also the

fact that he had been sleeping with his mother, the gravity of his crimes

hit him so hard that he could not bear to see his own face. He felt

responsible for his acts and hence decided to punish himself. He plucked his

own two eyes, from his sockets, and left his native Rome. He could have

claimed his innocence given the facts, but he did not choose to do so. Or so

the Roman mythology would have one believe. (The unbearable Lightness of

being, by Milan Kundera)

Benazir Bhutto crimes are far more of a debacle than Oedipus`s. She ended up

screwing royally too, however with two notable difference. Benazir was fully

aware of her faculties when she successfully raped and pillaged this

moribund country of ours. Furthermore, unlike the mythical but noble Oedipus

she is still desperately trying to convince herself and many others around

her that she did what she did unknowingly and that she was a victim of

circumstances. Indeed morality has changed for the worse since the times of

Oedipus.

When we talk of letting things be as they are, we too are victims of the

same apathy and complacency that we see in the erstwhile dishonourable Ms

Bhutto. It is most ironic to see pleas of understanding in maintaining a

status quo in Pakistan. To let things be as they are, to look the other way,

to ignore, to not get involved, to forgive hyenas such as Benazir, to let

her get away with murder, literally! To think twice about voicing concerns

over the wrong doing of a criminal fugitive from justice, to having to

distance ourselves from the fray lest the good name of Pakistan come under

further scrutiny. That is the ultimate demise of our conscience of our

nation. Yet all those who propose to not accost Ms Bhutto and hold her

accountable for her past crimes, in view of the fact that we might further

denigrate Pakistan`s good name, I have but only sympathy. Good people, Stop

being deluded about your Pakistan. Pakistan`s name was besmirched when the

armed forces of West Pakistan conducted a systematic search and destroy

mission in the name of ethnic superiority against the innocent, and unarmed

``dark`` rice-eating Bengalis in 1971; on the command of the father of this

woman whom we are so trying to shield and whom we are letting speak on her

behalf. Pakistan`s name was spoiled the day the government made it their

business to meddle in the people`s religion, contrary to our Quaid secular

stance,`` State has nothing to do with the religion``. I could go on but you

hopefully get the picture.

For those of us, who still have delusions of the honour associated with the

word ``Pakistan`` and the rest of the world, let me tell you again, contrary

to the teachings of the public, grammar, and international schools within

Pakistan,``We are not the masters of the universe as some of us might have

been led to believe``. Having learnt that painful truth, could one move on

and make decisions which could help us all as a nation. Guys, You are the

creme de la creme of Pakistan, the ones armed with the western education and

a conscience, hopefully! Look around you. In a country of 140 million

people, there are a total of 41 students on Pas (Pakistanis at Stanford) list. What does that tell

you. That if you are not willing to take a stand, Mohd Feeqah from down the

road in inner Lahore certainly does not have a chance in hell in confronting

this evil and slandering excuse of a Pakistani woman .

You want to know about apathy of our lot. On pAS`S voting for the

confrontation with BB only 26 people replied. 36.5 persons did not bother to

reply. ``Chaddo gee kon is rolay which painda chaundha haini``(Oh forget it

who the devil wants to get embroiled in this nonsense``. My point is that if

not us, who are in this country on the basis of our own intellect and have

an opportunity to clear our conscience to set the records straight about Ms

Gargoyle, who will take the stance on fighting the evil that has festered in

the system back home. Sheba, I wanted to specially thank you for having

taken the time and the effort to at least the confront the ``rot`` of our

society, single-handedly and with so much vitality. Such unselfish and

conscientious acts go a long way in building a stronger morale for us all.

Some of us pointed out that the Indians would disparage us and make fun of

us. I say to hell with the Indians. Its time we found our own identity as

opposed to looking at the complexed Indians for moral support. Why must we

always be caught in the trap of comparing us with Indians on such ``paltry``

issues, and forget to look up to them when it comes to education, scientific

achievement. I recall that last year some 200 chappal wearing Indians

arrived at Stanford, compared to the 9 people from Pakistan. Even adjusting

for the population parity, this phenomenon can not be explained., except

that they beat us to it. And no not all of them are ``burgers``!

Lastly we call ourselves Muslims. What sort of Muslims are we that we can

not call a spade a spade. Where is our Iman (faith), which asks us to

condemn a wrong by first fighting against it; if we can not fight it to at

least condemn it by speaking about it, if we are so afraid to not even

speak, then to at least condemn it within our heart of hearts. Sadly, I am

unable to attend this meeting! I hope some noble people will make sure that

this Lady is made to answer some difficult questions, and to let the

American community at Stanford know that she is nothing but a self serving,

avaricious con artist, who has nothing more dearer to her heart than her own

good self.

To feel responsible for oneself and for one`s actions needs to be our

watchwords. The same should hold true of our expectations of our leaders. As

far as Benazir and her optimism for a third term in office as the divinely

appointed PM of Pakistan, I have just this much to say,`` Deceive me once,

shame on you! Deceive me twice shame on us``

Sincerely

Asim

Nuggets from the Urdu press



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America`s `baira` will be `gharaq`

Famous warrior and chief of Lashkar-e-Tayba Hafiz Saeed told Nawa-e-Waqt that there will be baira gharaq (shipwreck) of America at the hands of Allah. He said it was the religious duty of all Pakistanis to come to the defence of the Islamic government of Afghanistan. He said the crusades were on and the Christians would come to grief. He asked General Musharraf why he agreed with the American bombing of airports and power stations in Afghanistan since they were not hideouts for the terrorists. Mufti Shamzai of Banuri mosque in Karachi ruled that the government which supports the Americans should be toppled.

Mulla Umar is nuts

According to daily Din, Mulla Umar the caliph of Afghanistan was mentally sick and was given to bouts of madness during which he screamed like a child. It was his routine to lock himself inside a room which his followers thought was a kind of maraqba (spiritual vigil) but in fact he tried to hide his madness.

Journalist who ate five times a day!

According to Khabrain British journalist Yvonne Ridley writing about her arrest at the hands of the Taliban intelligence agency said that the statement of the Afghan spokesman that she was given five meals a day `because she was used to eating all the time` was false because she was not given any food and that she was on hunger strike during her captivity and had eaten only after being released. She added that she was made to walk 80 miles.

Mulla Umar`s teacher held

According to Khabrain, Mullah Umar`s teacher, 67 year old Maulana Ghulam Sarwar, was picked up in Quetta and held in custody by the Pakistani police. The teacher, after being arrested, immediately declared jehad on America. The arrest was made hours after the beginning of the American attack on Afghanistan.

Dr Israr`s pearls of wisdom

Quoted in daily Din, Lahore`s famous cleric Dr Israr Ahmad said that the attacks in New York and Washington on September 11 were carried out by the Jews. Next, the Jews will destroy Masjid-e-Aqsa in occupied Jerusalem. He said Israel will finally be conquered by the combined power of the mujahideen from Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Gul sways lawyers

According to daily Pakistan, ex-ISI chief General Hamid Gul told the Lahore High Court bar that the terrorism in America was actually the work of Americans and Jews. He said America wanted to end the power of China and Pakistan. After Afghanistan, America would end Pakistan. After his speech, the lawyers became extremely emotional and shouted that he should lead their procession against the government, but the office bearers of the bar succeeded in containing the fiery passions of the true Muslim lawyers.

Astrologers on Taliban crisis

According to Khabrain, a handful of astrologers in Lahore expressed conflicting views on the future of the on-going American attacks on Afghanistan. Almost all of them said that America will fail and that the Taliban will win and the Muslim world would unite, but disagreed in detail. One said that Pakistan will emerge from its own crisis in 2002, and another said that Osama bin Laden would leave Afghanistan but Mulla Umar would lose power in 2001.

A bungalow for Mulla Umar

Famous columnist Nazeer Naji wrote in Jang that Osama bin Laden came to Afghanistan and took control of it and in return built a bungalow for Mulla Umar. After that he got rid of Mulla Umar`s Afghan guards and appointed a new guard comprising the Bengali warriors of his organisation, Al-Qaeda. These were salaried men who had learned to hate Pakistan.

Jesus writes to Christians!

Columnist Ismail Qureshi wrote in Nawa-e-Waqt a letter from Jesus to his Christian followers wherein Christianity was accused of having imposed crusades on Muslims and then exploited the Muslim world in the 20th century, building its World Trade Center with the usury extracted from poor Muslim states. Then Christ sent ghaibi (invisible) power which destroyed the World Trade Center, after which Christianity declared war on poor Muslims. Jesus said that he could not remain quiet on this injustice and asked Christians to reform themselves and do penance.

The name of Osama bin Laden

Daily Nawa-e-Waqt wrote in its Sare Rahe column that Pakistan foreign minister Abdul Sattar returned from Doha and held a press conference at Lahore State Guest House but carefully avoided naming Osama bin Laden while the world was talking about him and President Bush was waking up at night crying Osama, Osama! The column called on the Taliban ambassador in Islamabad Mulla Zaeef to rename himself Mulla Qavi (powerful) because that was what was needed against the Americans. His name Zaeef means weak.

Gen Aslam Beg speaks again

Quoted in Khabrain, ex-COAS General Mirza Aslam Beg said that if the Americans sent land troops in Afghanistan tau oos kay hosh thikanay ajayen gai (will be brought to its senses). The last time he said this during the Gulf war, the Americans landed and Saddam Hussein was quickly defeated. But the genius of General Beg has remained undimmed in the service of Pakistan. Ex-ISI chief, General Hameed Gul said in Khabrain that America will never send land troops into Afghanistan. He said OIC was murda (dead). Maj-Gen (Retd) Tajamul Hussain Malik said not so originally that America wanted to take hold of Pakistan`s nuclear weapons and give them away to some other country. He said the war against the Taliban would be a long one and the Americans would run away after seeing dead bodies.

Praising great actresses

Film producer Khwaja Pervez wrote in Khabrain that a statement by actress Reema, Mira, Resham and Saima that they would die for Pakistan was a great gesture of self-sacrifice for the country even though the statement was the work of a destitute journalist sitting at his desk. He said Reema had made Pakistan famous by doing colossal shopping in America, thus picking up its economy and making it beholden to Pakistan. He said the debt of the tawaef (courtesans) was great on Pakistan since they sang all the TV songs. They should now be sent to America to persuade it not to kill the Afghans.

India will remember its `nani`

Quoted in Khabrain, General (Retd) K.M. Arif said that if India attacked Pakistan it will be made to remember its nani (grandmother). He said the Americans had superiority in the air but if they sent land forces into Afghanistan, then the Taliban will have superiority over them. Two superpowers (Britain and the USSR) have had themselves already defeated in Afghanistan. General Hameed Gul said that the Americans will soon learn the rates of atta and daal in Afghanistan.

Parachinar refuses asylum to Afghans

According to Khabrain, the tribal people of Parachinar in the Kurram Agency refused to offer asylum to the Afghan refugee fleeing their country `because the last we did that the Russians attacked us and killed 12 of us`. Seeing this, the political agent set up three refugee camps in the lower part of the Kurram Agency.

Osama like Napoleon and Quaid

Astrologer Abdul Wahab told Khabrain that the thumb of Osama bin Laden was like the thumbs of Napoleon and the Quaid-e-Azam. He said Osama was under threat till November 4, after which he will be safe. According to his lines, Osama was incapable of attacking America but he had a personality that attracted human beings like honey attracted bees. Osama did not bow in front of anyone and was a man of great determination, but he would meet a sad end.

`Reema lao!`

According to Khabrain a local theatre in Lahore was nearly put on fire by an angry crowd after film actress Reema failed to turn up in a show arranged in her name. After Reema failed to appear, the crowd shouted Reema Lao (bring Reema) and began to damage the property of the theatre. The administration said that though the show was dedicated to Reema there was no pledge by them to bring her to the theatre. After this the crowd tried to set fire to the theatre.

Americans eat sleeping pills

Great columnist Muzaffar Bukhari wrote in daily Din that America was worth pitying because 20 percent of the Americans were clinically mad and the rest took sleeping pills to go to sleep. He wrote that the Americans should read the following line of Allama Iqbal: tu agar mera nahin banta nan ban apna tau ban (if you can`t be mine be your own person).

Hekmatyar joins whom?

According to daily Insaf great Afghan leader and former ISI favourite Glubuddin Hekmatyar joined the Taliban with his men and all the weapons he had got from Pakistan`s ISI during the Afghan war. He was keeping the weapons as buried cache somewhere in Afghanistan. Other reports said that Hekmatyar had joined the Northern Alliance.

Mulla Umar`s family killed

According to Ausaf, the wife of Mulla Umar, one daughter and two sons, got killed during the American air attacks. The sons were injured on the first day of the attack. His close relatives were also either injured a or were killed by the American bombs falling on Kandahar.

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Re: ylh

``In any event, the word `abeyance` has a different meaning from the word `suspended`. In any event the constitution might be in abeyance, but Part 1 Chap 2 stands valid as Pakistan`s expression on guaranteed human rights. ``

If there ever was any doubt about you being full of $hit, this removes it. A country throws out its elected government, a military dictator squeezes the necks of its puppet judges to give him laughable legitmacy, and you present some obtuse logic to defend it all.

Re: YLH #65

From Xinhua (Chinese news agency):

``Pakistan Appoints New Supreme Court Chief Justice``

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200001/26/eng20000126W121.html

Note, the former chief justice refused to break allegiance to the suspended constitution, and had to go. Musharraf REQUIRED all judges to swear allegiance to the PCO.

Shammi #6 Mona #113

Yes but WHO can they pick to replace Sonia ... the congress has not had any popular leader since Rajeev was assasinated ...

I really wish some successful Indians who have already had a great career would come forward to serve their country in politics.

For example I`d vote for Narayan Murthy (INFOSYS) in a heartbeat or Kiran Bedi - why is politics largely confined only to criminals, hard core ideologues and political dynasties? Don`t you think people like Abdul Kalam (is he being considered for President), Azim Premji and Dr Yusuf Hamedi (CIPLA Chairman and an Indian Muslim-Jew, go figure!) could help provide some political (or other) leadership to Indian Muslims?

if any one reads YLH`s posts they will think the pakistanis are all honey and faithful and true. Indeed if you read his juvenile sophomrish rant on paknews.com you will be convinced the whole world is against pakistan, and he is the white knight on the horse....

but I guess this little pipsqueak will ignore Friday times, and Khalid when he says the follwoign (note: this is jus a small snippet from the article - where Khalid shows the paki origins of the kargil heros)

quote

That`s what happened in 1993 when a certain Brigadier Kamal Alam that India would simply collapse after the Bombay mayhem. In the event, it turned out to be another Pearl Harbour, a act-of-anger operation that gained Pakistan nothing, except that General Javed Nasir got the sack soon after the Nawaz Sharif government fell. The man who fronted the operation, Indian underworld king Dawood Ibrahim, was bequeathed to Pakistan by the agency as the most negative fallout of the ill-conceived operation. In 2001, he is perhaps the most powerful man in Karachi owning large estates and keeping army and police personnel on his payroll.

http://www.thefridaytimes.com/news9.htm

read about the Dawood your General said didnot exist. Read about the paki hand behind the Bombay bombs. Generally , Khalid seems to be accepting that Pakistan has a very big hand behind the terrorism in India. So the phrase Pakistan the Terrorist State stands, the *hit sticks. YLH think you better hide that face in shame, and for once stop and think before you post extrarodinary junk in the hope of catching the eys of the pwers that be in pakistan.

As they say what goes round will come round. Now Al-bin-laden is going to take over the country - witness his latest fax to Al-jeezera station.

Boy, oh boy.

RE: EST Reply #: 36 ylh

``tvarad,

Have you ever been to Pakistan? You say `there is something fundamentally wrong with Pakistan` when your own country`s living standard albiet Bangalore and Bombay is far worse than Pakistan could ever be. Is this `fundamental` problem that Pakistan has a military Government? Really?

Isnt a Military Government better than a democratically elected government elected in our `secular` neighbor on the promise of `nukes, destruction of Pakistan, and Hindu fundamentalism```

I have no illusions about the crooks that run India and the bogeys they raise to get elected as alluded to in my previous post. But at least they have the fear that every five years they will be judged by the people and modify their predatory behavior at least a little and focus on the needs of the common man. That is better than the zero attention Pakistani leaders focus on her social problems, mainly because the vested interests are so obsessed with self-aggrandizement. Whatever BB`s and NS`s faults were (and they were monumental), at least they were entrusted with the sacred public trust as opposed to interlopers like Ayub, Yahya, Zia and now Mushy (I know, I know the people are with him) and the ISI`s version of how Pakistan`s security should be looked after.

And believe me, it is the neurotic obsession of Pakistani leaders to match India no matter what that has caused it to teeter on the verge of banktrupcy and nothing India has done so far.

``Have some shame. Leave Pakistan alone, you Pakistan obsessed Scounderels!``

We really would like to leave you alone. But you guys have a habit of biting when we aren`t looking :-).

Top Ten Tips For Ambitious Indian Prime Ministers

By Ayeda

Thefridaytimes.com

10. Hijack your own airplanes when American airplanes get hijacked

9. Bomb your own buildings when American buildings get bombed

8. Spread Anthrax scare in your own country when Americans get Anthrax

7. Start vandalizing national Islamic architecture when mosques in America attacked

6. Conjure up domestic crises and declare them “acts of war”

5. Label everyone who disagrees with you a “terrorist”

4. Start beating up on own Muslim citizens when America does so

3. Start beating up on Muslim countries when America does so

2. Beg America to use your bases

1. When it doesn’t, shell your neighbors when visited by senior American officials

Re hamzad afaqui 61

YIPEEEEE!!!!!

This ought to have been the headline of the New York Times, Wash Post, the Times of London and other newspapers, but because of that vast and evil jewish-hindu conspiracy, we the people were robbed of this important fact. Now all of us can sleep better at night because of what this archpriest [what the dickens is an archpriest anyway?] has done.

The good thing for the fortunate man is that being a former Russian Orthodox priest, he really didn`t have to wait one second to grow a beard. And he can accumulate 4 wives on earth now and is entitled to 72 more if he chooses to be a human bomb.

But really, who gives a flying you know what to an individual`s personal choice. Religion is one`s private business and leave it at that.

Another aside: What is so sexual about religion that one has to embrace it? Isn`t convert the right term anyway?

I think a false image has been propagated. I have not settled in New Jersey. See I came on an F1 Visa... which the last time I checked is a `Student` Visa...I have an OPT ... which is called `Optional Practical Training`, which I am utilizing to pay my parents back some of what they spent on my education. My OPT which is for all you educated in the `time of Nehru` is OPTIONAL PRACTICAL TRAINING.. will expire next October... So I will go back to Pakistan and settle down there.

I am neither a resident of New Jersey legally nor a US citizen. I am a Pakistani citizen with an F1 Visa...which let me repeat again for the benefit of those who were educated in the `time of Nehru`, is a STUDENT visa... and unlike those who were educated `in the time of Nehru` I dont plan to illegally stay on in this country.

Shammi,

I am not sure about that please refresh my memory.

-Yasser

`Too bad. Even Bangladesh is willig to follow a parliamentary democracy along the Westminster model like India.`

Ah ,,, pagal pagal hee rahe gaa... dear Idiot who made this statement, Westminister Model of Democracy is NOT an Indian concept. Yes Indian `Lok Sabha` follows the British Westminister Model, undoubtedly and the years that we`ve had Democracy in Pakistan we too have followed the westminister model and indeed it is the model to follow...

However, when we talk of India as a Model, westminister is the last thing we have in mind. Give me a break alright.... your ruling party`s manifesto speaks of Nuclear explosions.,..and of crushing Pakistan and building Hindu temples on former Mosque sites.. these are the `democratic` issues your ruling party uses to get elected in India... this is the model we dont need in Pakistan. We need a democracy rooted in real issues, and real concerns not emotionalism.

Thank God Pakistan was not a Democracy these days... someone told Musharraf `Sir you should defy America and be a Hero`, Musharraf said `I`d rather be an anti-hero and save Pakistan`... had there been Democracy in Pakistan especially like that of our `democratic secular` neighbor, our democratically elected leader would have defied america and would have been a hero.

When laloo prasads and other such corrupt leaders get elected again and again, and when the coalition government of the `secular` state is one with 4 Hindu fundamentalist and terrorist parties ... I doubt that it can be called `Westminister` style Democracy.

Danton once said `People are like Robespierre` .. time to understand what that means Dear Harimau.

Harimau,

Time and again, you have shown yourself to be inferior to me in logic, knowledge and education, so old man dont try to start a new one. Bigots like you are not worth my time.

Two of the greatest facts of the 20th century are that Pakistan and Israel exist and will exist till eternity. Time the Indians and Arabs came to terms with it.

YLH

Yaar I really do hate liberals. I have given my reasons several times. and here it is once again:

http://www.chowk.com/bin/showr.cgi?f=phoodbhoy_mar0301&n=230#reply1

I really do hate such liberals and liberalism.

very funny

When those who are fortunate to be born muslims can learn a lot from those who embraced Islam.As T.Ahmad rightly points out every one must be able to read,learn,and understand the faith and practice it accordingly.Our misfortune is that the so-called leaders cannot even be Imams & lead a prayer congregation & perform funeral ritulas themselves.They themselves pray behind an ``imam``---a profession rather than a calling---and thus de-facto recognising the elevated status of the ``imam``.

Being a muslim is not a part-time,shift-work,or week-end affair.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Let us say what the Soviet Deputy and former ArchPriest of Orthodox Church has to say about his recently embracing Islam.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Russian Archpriest Viacheslav Polosin Converts to Islam

Nezavisimaia gazeta--religii, 2 June 1999

Taken from http://www.stetson.edu/

I will say this about BB - her behavior during the current crisis has been reasonable: She has not tried to use the PPP to create a racket in the streets. And her statements have generally been towards bringing people together, within Pakistan and witht the rest of the civilized world. So as ``Citizen BB`` she is fine. Still doesnt mean that she is also competent to be ``Prime Minister BB`` ever again.

The religious parties of Pakistan on the other hand have condemned themselves before the ``silent majority`` in Pakistan, and before the world as well. They have proved themselves unfit to be considered ``Citizen Mullah`` either, and as such should be treated like the common criminals they are (at least their power hungry leaders, the rank and file probably just need to be sent to a proper school so they become fit to earn a living by means other than taking in funds to create mischief for Pakistan and its neighbors).

#39 quarterlane

``ofcourse i agree that she deserves to be hung by her eyelashes for all that she did``

Is this a new hair-removal technique or what?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Ref ylh #: 36

[Really give me a break... in order to have true Democracy in both Pakistan and India, you need to start with educating them.... Democracy and tyranny of the Majority are NOT the same!]

YLH, you are likely to pop an artery when you realize that the literacy rate in India is around 62%. So, we ARE educating our people.

As for the tyranny of the majority, unlike England and like the US, the Indian Constitution provides for judicial challenges to laws enacted by the Parliament. In particular, the Supreme Court of India has already held that the fundamental rights enumerated in the Indian Consitution is not subject to amendments. So, the majority cannot pass laws to deprive minorities of their constitutional rights.

[There is a saying in Sindh `You cant purify the water until you take out the dog from the well.`]

Is that why you left Pakistan and settled in New Jersey?

[Believe me if we want Democracy in Pakistan, India will be the last model, we will like to follow.]

Too bad. Even Bangladesh is willig to follow a parliamentary democracy along the Westminster model like India.

[We are not blinded by lofty ideals without any roots in reality.]

What was the demand for Pakistan rooted on? Reality? Don`t make me laugh.

[That sir is hypocrisy.. and you chaps have too much of it!]

No. We have an excess of pious sanctimony. It actually irritates other countries. Even the USA.

Are scum like BB really worth anything?Of course!only to those lefties/liberal(In US you dare not call yourself socialist/communist for obvious reasons)who saw Commie-Russia humiliated & finished off forever.It bothers them no end to see that the revival of the faithfuls of ALL religions is on the up & up...even in Russia!

Over 15%of Russia(not former soviet) is Muslim and the mosques are again brimming.A new shiny blue mosque recently completed near Kremlin.An Archbishop recently embraced Islam & still heads an important ministry.

Cosumerism and capitalism are the remaining idols to be smashed.

New Chapters are being written.Old books are obsolete.Do not be caught stuck in the past century.Be Modern!

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

It is ALWAYS worthwhile to know from those who write for non-commercial(without greed and fame) reasons.



American Journalists set the record Straight

(This article was before Sept 11th)

In a break with the status quo, a number of American journalists have begun to speak about Afghanistan in an open and unbiased manner. The journalists, most of whom have made extended visits to the country, are refuting the misinformation that is regularly spread by the international media. They include Mike Hoover, a producer for the CBS television network, and Cindy Law, a freelance female reporter who recently took a month-long trip to Afghanistan. Both are working on documentary films and gave interviews to the Voice of America`s Pashto language service.

Hoover has been fascinated with Afghanistan for years and made frequent visits there during the Jihâd against the Soviets, described his dismay when the factional fighting began in Kabul after the collapse of the Communist regime. Then, when the Taliban took power and peace was restored, the Western press quickly turned against Afghanistan and the smear campaign against the Taliban started. Hoover started to find out more, but, as he said:

``I could never find anything where the Taliban tell us what their thoughts are and what they are really doing. It was just other people talking about them without them ever speaking out. After talking to a couple of people who were over there and had exactly the opposite opinion of the Taliban, it seemed to me that it might be good for CBS to go over there to see for itself, to hear from Taliban about who they are and what they are trying to do, and to observe whether their goals are implemented or are just political talk.``

The journalists says that before going to Afghanistan, he half-suspected that the reports that permeate the Western media might be true. But those suspicions were forgotten upon his arrival on Afghan soil. The first thing that he noticed and was surprised by was that there were no weapons and no armed men.

Hoover spent a month in the country, traveling from Kandahar to Kabul. He refuted the Western image of the Taliban as being ignorant. He saw them as being fully aware of both Afghan and world politics.

``When you speak to them on any subject, you realize how bright these guys are. It was surprising….you would learn that the guy you were talking to was only 26 years old when you thought you were talking to someone with the wisdom of a fifty year-old. I was very impressed.`` Hoover added.

He said that all those that he met there during his trip, whether young or old, were extremely happy about the security situation.

``People were happy that there was security, that there was no rocketing, that there was safety, that you didn`t have any worries about crime as you did before.``

When asked about the Taliban`s harshness, he said, ``On certain things, the Taliban are very strict…..I think it is fair. If you commit a crime, you will be punished for it. The punishment is, in my view, fair and swift.``

Hoover was surprised by the fact that there is no formality, no red tape in Afghanistan-any one can see the ministers to hand in his petition or idea, and it will be acted upon swiftly. He said that the ministers that he saw didn`t even look like ministers. They were dressed in the same way as the average person, and some even wore old clothes and well-worn shoes.

One thing that Hoover saw everywhere and was bothered by was the poverty and hardship, which has been compounded by UN sanctions. He deplored the twisted logic of the sanctions, saying:

``They destroyed their own country fighting the Soviets. They fought bravely. And now, instead of helping them or at least leaving them alone to rebuild, the world is imposing sanctions on them.``

Hoover said that he hopes that other journalists and officials travel to Afghanistan with open minds to see the reality and analyze the situation themselves. People must not let themselves be deceived by biased second-hand information, he stated. If the truth was revealed, he said, then he is certain that the sanctions will be dropped and that, instead of confrontation with the Taliban, the world would help them. Hoover`s comments are echoed by Law, who said that she had heard all sorts of things about Afghanistan, especially about the Taliban`s treatment of women, so she decided go to the country to see for herself. Law spent more than a week in Kandahar and three weeks in Kabul, speaking to women from all walks of life, including female doctors and nurses. She said that while they had many concerns, the burqa (veil) was not one of them.

``Their major concerns, I would have to say, were the sanctions and war. All Afghans pleaded for the United States and the United Nations to end the sanctions and help rebuild their country. They also asked for medical, food, and financial aid.``

Afghan women told Law that their first need, after economic assistance, is education for their children. In regards to female education, Law said that she saw some school for girls in homes, especially in Kandahar, and girls studying in mosques.

``Taliban officials assured Law that once the war is over, they would turn their attention to the many issues facing the nation, including women`s education and employment. She said that she saw work already beginning on some girl`s schools in Kandahar.``

Scoffing at the misconception held by many that Afghan women are prisoners in their homes, Law stated,

``There are many women working in the hospitals and health care, and they comprise most of the women that I talked to. And I saw women walking around in the markets.``

Law said that the world must realize that Afghanistan has been devastated by two decades of war, and that its infrastructure has been destroyed. She added that the international concern about the plight of Afghan women is to be appreciated, but,

``I think the best way to help the women of Afghanistan is to encourage the removal of sanctions. They are hurting the Afghan people, especially the women. And more humanitarian aid should be provided- medical, economic, etc.``

Other American media outlets are also challenging the propaganda campaign that is being waged against the Islâmic Emirate. The San Jose (California) Mercury, a daily newspaper, published comments made by a female Muslim student leader, Sara Azad, who said:

``The fact is, women in Afghanistan are now protected and their rights are guaranteed. Because no right comes before the right to life, and today they have that right.``

Azad added that she receives letters from her grandmother in Afghanistan, who writes that Afghan women have never felt safer than they do now.

Re: YLH #35

``...since the Supreme Court, as the supreme judicial body and the law of the land, derives its legitimacy from the constitution....``

Wrong! The Supreme Court now derives its legitimacy from the Provisional Constitution Order (#2?). If you recall, all Supreme Court judges were forced to swear allegiance to the PCO. Those who refused (including the Chief Justice, I think) were politely shown the door. All govt. activities in Pakistan (including judicial) are carried out in the name of the PCO -- all new appointees have to swear allegiance to the PCO, not to the `suspended` constitution.

Every visit to chowk bears a witness to dull and staid debates going. I think chowk has lived out its age. Either there should be some new blood or it should be closed for sometime. People have grinded one thing so many times that now it all seems f *&

Pray, what kind of a bird is a jiyala?

Studebaker # 48

What a sad, moving story that was....Such a reminder that if there is one thing we seek in another, it is loyalty...The rest matters as much as the morning dew...It glistens for while and then disappears under the warmth of the sun...

Blessed were these two, and may they find peace together...

From DAWN via PAKISTAN PUNCH


BENAZIR`S `ARTEFACTS`

In an unimpressive show, the National Accountability Bureau on Sep.3, put on display a total of 11 artefacts reportedly belonging to former prime minister Benazir Bhutto and her spouse Asif Ali Zardari. The items shown to the press for about 10 minutes even included a portrait of Benazir Bhutto herself along with her daughter.
No documentary evidence was, however, shown to establish that these artefacts belonged to the former first couple or brought from London or had anything to do with corruption or any other wrongdoing. The mediamen raised a number of questions about the authenticity of the items put on display but a whole lot of NAB civil and uniformed officials present on the occasion refused to disclose anything except a brief general statement by an assistant director of federal investigation agency. At least no one at the show was impressed that so much talked about and widely publicized corruption case involved a couple of friezes, a tea set and a portrait of Benazir Bhutto which could not be called an antique.

(DAWN)

Ras:

Your reaction is so predictable. You and ROmair are the 2 faces of the same coin. Jialas like you see in BB a reincarnation of their love for ZAB forgetting her dismal performance while in power. ROmair`s thinking about BB and the PPP represents probably 99% of the army officers(serving as well retired) refusing to forget the slights they suffered at the hands of ZAB. In the meantime, the country slips slowly but surely into an abyss.

later

-sac

nasah

re: 11

Nicely done. Among some of B`s unwise moves, it seems that B. Bhutto`s husband was a political and personal liability. I was among those who had serious expectations of her. One recurring theme began to emerge; her husband`s abusive and corrupt behavior. I also began to wonder how any politician could attempt to reform certain aspects of policy and law in a game where the religious factions in an effort to destabilize B`s regime, constantly threw out (and continue to) wild cards. Very difficult, esp. when these combatative spheres tended to really ``genderize`` B`s regime.

In another vein, I am curious about whether any self defined Islamic state can live with a woman in a leadership role. All evidence points to the contrary.

Also, Urstruly, you seem to have a bone to pick re: liberalism. I`d like to hear some legitimate reasons for your position on liberalism.

regards

regards

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

(Reply #: 30 Ras Siddiqui)

``It was not my intent to scare anyone via this writing so please, before anyone busts a blood vessel please think of General Zia and calm down.``

It needs a child to understand that Gen Zia was dangerous for the ppl of Pakistan. It needs a mature and above-avg IQ person to understand that BB is dangerous to the paki ppl.

Pakis living in USA can kiss the ass of ppl like Gulbadin Hikatyar if he is respected by idiot Americans. And once they did!!!!

`the Pakistanis who are neither inside the dustbin nor lying squashed underneath it...these are some of the bravest, finest people on this planet - the human rights activists, the health service providers, the volunteer school organizers, the expatriate professionals, and even one general who seems to have a brain.`

Hear Hear!

American Terror Alert:

6 Israelis with Nuke Pics Sought

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Updated on 2001-10-31 11:41:30







SAN FRANCISCO (PNS) October 31, 2001 - Justice Department has issued a new alert in response sources claiming `major terror incident` to take place within days.

Knight Rider news service is reporting Federal Beauru of Investigations is seeking six Israeli citizens who were stopped by Highway Patrol Police but despite having suspicious items described as `photographs of Nuclear sites and Alaska Oil pipeline` and `box cutters` similar to the ones used by hijackers of Sept 11 terrorist attack on Pentagon

and WTC.

State Department is reportedly `furious` at INS for allowing all six Israeli citizens go without notification and approval from the FBI.

In response to this new terror threat, security has been beefed up at Nuclear facilities.

The End.

tvarad `yet India has 40 billion in the bank` vooooohoooooooo... Wowwwwwwwwwwwww.... so India has atleast half of what Bill Gates has after a decade of `unparalleled` progress? Wowwwwwwwwww! Well done... 1 billion people equal to half of Bill Gates...

No one is denying Pakistan`s failings especially in the last decade when its Economy has been mismanaged, but when Indians of all people get up to tell us how their country is sooooooooooooo much better off, I cant help but laugh. So yes Pakistan has only close to a 3 Billion in reserves and this is a recent phenomenon, especially keeping in mind all the unrest.. I agree... but people in Pakistan dont die of hunger on the streets like they do in the `first world` country with 40 billions ... whole 40 Billions in reserves.

It is pathetic that a country of 1 billion people is so obsessed with a much smaller country with a population 1/9th of its own, that even its progress is relative to Pakistan...

`Oh so what if we dont have half as much as Microsoft, atleast we have so much more than Pakistan`

I say there is something `Fundamentally` wrong with a country of 1 billion people, 1/5th of the world`s population, when it has only a `paltry` 40 billion in reserves .... when the representatives of 1/5th of humanity cant win more than a single Bronze medal at the Olympics, when their total share in world trade is too insignificant to be counted.

My advice to Pakistan obsessed scounderels on Chowk... forget Pakistan, leave us to our fate, think of yourself... think of your India, ... think of your own problems.... we definitely need no lectures from a nation whose only claim to progress is a misplaced superiority complex over a currently bogged-down nation like Pakistan, which ironically still has a higher GDP/capita than India...

-YLH

PS By the way, an estimate of reserves held by Pakistanis overseas: 80 Billion.

Do you do this on purpose Urstruly? I mean I know that you are a liberal Moderate yourself, but why put this front?

What are you trying to prove?

When will the ``educated`` ``civilised`` ``modern`` CNN & bbc types and their Paki lapdogs learn to tell the truth.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Webfiles: ``The Taliban Are Well Liked``

A Japanese doctor`s up-close observations contradict overseas reports

By MUTSUKO MURAKAMI

Monday, October 29, 2001

Web posted at 03:50 p.m. Hong Kong time, 03:50 a.m. GMT

Japanese doctor Tetsu Nakamura works with leprosy patients and refugees in Afghanistan and Pakistan. It`s a job that keeps him in touch with the raw reality of life in that troubled country. And he says that from what he has seen, the Taliban are being wrongly portrayed internationally. ``There`s something wrong with the media reports,`` he says. ``This talk of the Taliban being vicious and disliked doesn`t fit with reality.`` Nakamura says the fundamentalists have wide support from the population, particularly in rural areas. ``Otherwise, how can they rule 95% of the country with only 15,000 soldiers?``

Villagers around Nakamura`s Peshawar base hospital and 10 clinics in both northwestern Pakistan and eastern Afghanistan were pleased to see peace established under Taliban rule, he says. The Pushtun people, who make up two-thirds of the Afghan population, can accept strict Muslim codes because they have lived by them all their lives, he says. Women are not deprived of education or jobs, as far as he can see. In fact, half the local doctors at his clinics are women.

So why are the people of the capital, Kabul, reportedly hoping to see the Taliban overthrown? ``The Taliban may act differently there,`` he told me when we met recently in Tokyo. ``They`re obliged to fix the corrupt urban life. The people most vocal in criticizing the Taliban are upper-class Afghans who have been deprived of their privileges.`` Nakamura`s words reminded me of news footage I have seen several times since the attacks on New York and Washington. Shot by French journalists in Afghanistan, it showed Afghan women speaking critically of the Taliban. Significantly, they are dressed in shiny silk-like costumes, with large rings on their fingers.

Nakamura, 55, says the anti-Taliban Northern Alliance are not the freedom fighters some journalists describe them as. Villagers are frightened of them because they are more violent and cruel than the Taliban, he says. They execute innocent people in horrific ways, though not in public as the Taliban do as a warning to others.

Nakamura works for Peshawar – kai Medical Services, a Japanese aid agency based in Fukuoka City that has been operating in the Peshawar district for 17 years. He first visited the area as an alpinist when he was still a medical school student in Fukuoka. Shocked by the lack of medical care in the area, particularly for leprosy patients, he volunteered to work at a local hospital in l984. He says: ``I spent most of my time not in straight medical work but in trying to understand my patients, their lifestyles and values -- what makes them weep or what matters most for them. ``Luckily, I can eat anything and sleep anywhere,`` he grins.

Nakamura has seen foreigners visiting Afghanistan and returning home to criticize the Muslim culture -- from a Western perspective. These people may be ``heroes or heroines in London or New York,`` he says, ``but they contribute nothing to the welfare of Afghans.`` As for suggestions the Taliban have cut the country off from the world, Nakamura says the Afghans are perhaps better informed than the Japanese, as they listen daily to BBC radio in their own language.

The doctor`s greatest concern is the fate of millions of starving refugees in and around Afghanistan. Over one million of them are suffering from hunger, he says, while up to 40% are bordering on starvation. He thinks 10% could die during the winter. Nakamura and his staff stopped focusing exclusively on leprosy in the l980s as they had so many refugees to deal with, many suffering from malaria, diarrhea, infections and fever. Severe draught in recent years created hundreds of thousands of refugees. And now the American bombing and the fear of an invasion has brought more. His aid agency helps to dig wells not only to provide water but also for irrigation for farms, so that the refugees can return to their villages.

Back home in Japan temporarily and thinking of his base area in Pakistan and Afghanistan, Nakamura says: ``It`s all like a mirage far off in the desert.`` He fondly recalls the red-brown soil of Afghanistan fields, the villagers sharing their joy about water from newly dug wells, and the friendly faces of Taliban soldiers helping villagers. ``I have one simple question,`` he says. ``What are the big powers trying to defend by attacking this ailing, tiny country?`` It`s a good question.

Write to Asiaweek at mail@web.asiaweek.com

An interesting perspective by a well-respected scholar....Maulana(Dr)Israr Ahmed.

According to America and its allies every fundamentalist Muslim is seen as a terrorist and every Muslim who believes Islam to be a Deen (a complete code of life) is a fundamentalist. Hence, the present war is in fact being waged against Islam itself under the cloak of terrorism. This was stated by Dr. Israr Ahmed at Bagh-e-Jinnah Lahore during his Friday sermon. He said that no matter how much America and its allies assure us that the present was is not against Islam but against terrorism, however, given the fact that fundamental Islam is equated with terrorism, this war is indeed against Islam. He informed that presently there is no agreed-upon definition of terrorism and cited, as an example, the recently held meeting of General Assembly of UNO that failed to agree upon a definition of terrorism. He said that terrorism is a relative term due to the fact that what seems to be a terrorist activity to one, may be a freedom struggle to another.

Ameer of Tanzeem-e-Islami explained that the Islamic viewpoint on the matter is that an attack may be launched by Muslims, without any ultimatum, against an enemy with whom the Muslims are not bound by a treaty. Whereas upon a nation with which Muslims have signed a treaty, it is not allowed to attack them without an ultimatum (in case they violate the terms of the treaty first). He said that Guerilla war is also condoned in Islam in a situation in which either a people are pushed against a wall and have no other means to raise their voices or where the enemy is overwhelmingly strong and cannot be otherwise defeated. He said that in an attack in which civilians are killed is very much disliked in Islam, nonetheless, the oppressed and the persecuted have the right to retaliate terror with terror.

Dr. Israr mentioned that Usama bin Ladin`s involvement in them is highly unlikely. This is due to the fact that he has outright denied any role in this tragedy, whereas, this was not the case regarding the US embassy bombings in Tenzania and Kenya. Dr. Israr Ahmed said that America today is intoxicated by its power and might and as such considers itself above all principles of common sense, justice and fair play. He stated that due to the unjust American endorsement, Israel is continues to commit heinous injustice and cruelty against the Muslims of Palestine. Such endorsements are the reason behind the Muslims` hatred and rage against America and the West. Westerners ignore the fact that America and its allies have directly or indirectly condoned the injustices and oppression that have taken place against the Muslims worldwide.

Dr. Israr observed that it is a sign of Allah`s (swt) power and succor that today the strongest nation in the world has been rendered ineffective at the hands of the world`s weakest nation. The admittance of American Secretary of Defense of the fact that they ``cannot catch Usama`` and ``may never be able to catch him`` bears the implications of American defeat.

Ameer of Tanzeem-e-Islami said that President Musharraf cuts a sorry figure, as it pertains to the present Afghan-American conflict, for all of the President`s guarantees have been negated by the Americans. Likewise, by wishful dreaming of debt relief the country is now sunk even deeper in debt, which has amounted to $41 billion. If even now our government does not open its eyes to the realities on ground then the time may come soon when the government may have to regret its present policies.

Please Visit frequently www.tanzeem.org

crook or no crook, benazir has the loveliest feet in the whole world

ofcourse i agree that she deserves to be hung by her eyelashes for all that she did

Ref YLH #: 19

[This is a bit of a tangent but I would like to bring everyone`s attention to Pakistan`s constitution`s Part 2 Chap1

QUOTE:

`20. Subject to law, public order and morality:-

(a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practise and propagate his religion; and

(b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions.`]

Of course, the minute a Muslim accuses a Christian or Hindu of blasphemy, public order is threatened immediately because an Islamic mob will collect and demand death to the blasphemers. To assure public order, the police will arrest the persons accused of blasphemy on the say-so of a single Muslim and the death sentence will be automatically pronounced by a Muslim judge who will receive threats at his home if the infidels are not hanged.

That is the truth about the law in Pakistan, YLH. Think about it and weep for your minorities, not for the Kashmiris, Chechens or Bosnians.

I concur with everything Syed Ahmed has said about Ms. Bhutto and her rule. With respect to Murtaza Bhutto`s murder, I suspect, her hand in it too, directly or indirectly. She had problems with her brother over the distribution of elder Bhutto`s properties.

She has managed to survive the fate of Marcos and Moboto through remaining active on lecture circuits and newspaper articles. This, in itself, is a victory and reason enough for her activation, though no chance for becoming PM again. Her party`s decent showing in LB polls was more of an anti-Musharraf vote than anything else. She was never present in Balochistan, in NWFP, PPP is 1/3 of total vote bank and in Punjab, PPP is no match for PML (in any name). The next civilian government-if and when-be controlled by the same PML group as previously minus NS, with or without MQM and ANP.

tvarad,

Have you ever been to Pakistan? You say `there is something fundamentally wrong with Pakistan` when your own country`s living standard albiet Bangalore and Bombay is far worse than Pakistan could ever be. Is this `fundamental` problem that Pakistan has a military Government? Really?

Isnt a Military Government better than a democratically elected government elected in our `secular` neighbor on the promise of `nukes, destruction of Pakistan, and Hindu fundamentalism`.... Really give me a break... in order to have true Democracy in both Pakistan and India, you need to start with educating them.... Democracy and tyranny of the Majority are NOT the same!

There is a saying in Sindh `You cant purify the water until you take out the dog from the well.`

Believe me if we want Democracy in Pakistan, India will be the last model, we will like to follow. We are not blinded by lofty ideals without any roots in reality. That sir is hypocrisy.. and you chaps have too much of it!

Have some shame. Leave Pakistan alone, you Pakistan obsessed Scounderels!

Shammi,

The current constitution of Pakistan is the 1973 constitution which is more or less the same as the 1956 constitution, with the difference that the 1973 constitution specified Islam as the state religion and the 1956 constitution has no mention of a state religion.

In any event, the word `abeyance` has a different meaning from the word `suspended`. In any event the constitution might be in abeyance, but Part 1 Chap 2 stands valid as Pakistan`s expression on guaranteed human rights.

Furthermore, the Supreme Court`s decision, no matter how much under coercion, to give a ruling in favor of Musharraf`s interim Government till Oct 2002, re affirms the supreme status of the constitution symbolically, since the Supreme Court, as the supreme judicial body and the law of the land, derives its legitimacy from the constitution.

If Musharraf defies the SC and doesnot hold elections in 2002 I will grant you that the constitution is indeed suspended. But I know that Musharraf will hold elections in 2002 and then resign his commission. There will be a coalition Government of PPP, PML (Quaid-e-Azam Group), Pakistan Tehreek e Insaaf, and PML (Like Minded).

PML(N) and the religious parties will make up the opposition. President Musharraf`s current term will be over in 2003 and he will be reelected as a civilian in that year.

Call it democracy, call it king making, but such will be the politics of Pakistan.

I forgot to name ylh.

I forgot to name ylh.

AI and Ras,

people like you are the reason Pakistan is where it is. If you really like BB`s personality so much then maybe there is something wrong with your own personality. Have you ever though about what will happen to your families and your kids if BB and her husband come into power again. They have no interest in Pakistan.

By the way, RAS before you invite her to your house, hide all the kids and women, in case her husband shows up. She has the same old ideology which never worked in Pakistan. She always supported Taliban and was the one who handed our secrets to India. Hopefully she will realize that the best thing she can do for the country and for idiots who admire her and her personbality is to get out of politics. Otherwise the IDIOTS in Pakistan will be admiring the next dacoit of Pakistan Bilawal and will not only be impressed by him but will probably invite him to their house, after they vote fro him. God save Pakistan from idiots like you.

First, Thank you for such a good report. Certainly Benazir has a way of representing Pakistan well.

Shammi,

The problem is that Pakistanis have little to fall back on securing their belief system because Islamic supremacy introduced by Zia in our framework nullify all our efforts. That is the reason that India despite its wondrous flirtations with atrocious activities on the weaker; far more than Pakistan, gets away with it. And Pakistan is scrutinized for it, as it rightly should be. However, it is necessary that instead of bragging about your superficial morality, you address the problems as they are.

Aisha Fayyazi Sarwari.

A verrrrry Happy Halloween to the people
who have people that have replied to this news item thus far.

It was not my intent to scare anyone via this writing so please, before anyone busts a blood vessel please think of General Zia and calm down.

But I will stand behind what I have written here.

Rest later.

Got to take the kids around the neighborhood to
get some candy...

Trick or Treat?

Ras

Just read other posts.

Waheed: very good

Hobbyty: Excellent

Syed Ahmad: The best sum up.

I am too disgusted to write anything about this two faced Gorgon. She is the reason incarnate what is wrong with liberalism in Paksitan. And she is the reason why we should keep Paksitan from the scourge of fascist liberalism. As much as I hate the spineless squids the current rulers who have sold the country to the neo-colonialist I would prefer them over this curse of Paksitan.

Citizen Bhutto should be commended for supporting Pakistan and Islam in times such as these. Her god oratorial skills and public charisma enhances her standing as well as that of her country.

PM Bhutto on other hand has been a disgraceful individual. She has neither the strengths of her convictions - which vacillate with the prevailling winds - nor the intellect of her father - whose legacy she hawks like a street side madame.


Ms Bhutto the democrat - stumps for democracy...
yet her own People`s Party has no regular elections - she has annointed her self Chairman for life...-


MS Bhutto - the libertarian - talks of civil liberties yet presides over a feudal empire that practices Indentured servitude and bonded labor throughout her family lands in Sindh.

Ms Bhutto rejects extremism yet she presided over State sponsored terrorism and extra-judicial and custodial killings in Karachi - where opponents claim that anywhere from 15000 -25000 casualties of political opponents.


Ms Bhutto rejects the Taliban - yet it was her Interior Minister Mr ( retd Maj Gen) Naserrulah
Babar who initiated the Pakistani support for the Taliban....

Ms Bhutto talks of accountability via democracy yet despite her wealthy background She and her husband looted the country of millions of dollars
through kickbacks and left a trail from the Bahamas to the Swiss Accounts to properties all over Britain and France.

In the ongoing debate on ``why the US is hated across the MIddle East ???`` - Ms bhutto stands as a stellar example of Machiavallian leader supported by Western democracies and the misery and death that she has wrought on her own people. _ The West Admires Ms bhutto because she can relate with them - she can speak their lingo - and get her libertarian virtues across - yet at the same time in Rural Pakistan she stumps with some local mullah inciting the masses for her own gain.- Ms Bhutto represents the worst of what Pakistan has to offer - demagogery with a fascade of civility...

As so many other learned posters have already pointed out - Insitutions are what hold the key libertarian reform - not individuals... yet Pakistani intelligensia ( if that isnt an oxymoron) seeks the next messiah whilst blaming the illiterate masses for their own follies for the last two generations....

Benazir belongs in the dustbin of Pakistan history. Trouble is the dustbin is already full of mullahs-turned-generals, businessmen-turned-khalifahs, mullahs-turned-politicians, cricketers-turned-sociopoliticians, waderas-turned-populists, selfappointed-fieldmarshals, selfserving-publicservants, mba-type-militarymen. And, the dustbin rests on something else - crushed flat as pancakes, are two generations of Pakistanis under the dustbin - with sad eyes as they subconsciously dream of how things might have been. If somehow this dustbin had not been there. If years and decades had not flown while these generations sat motionless under the dustbin, unable to fly with the wind.

And yet...the winds of change themselves are growing stronger everyday...they will shake the dustbin loose...and the crushed generations will stand up...and take their rightful place in the march of human civilization...

Till then, let us count not on the contents of the dustbin but on what we have outside the dustbin...the Pakistanis who are neither inside the dustbin nor lying squashed underneath it...these are some of the bravest, finest people on this planet - the human rights activists, the health service providers, the volunteer school organizers, the expatriate professionals, and even one general who seems to have a brain.

Re: YLH

``...This is a bit of a tangent but I would like to bring everyone`s attention to Pakistan`s constitution`s Part 2 Chap1...``

Which constitution? -- you forgot to give us the version number. 1973? Earlier? The one currently suspended one?

Well for all you BB haters, let me tell you something, if I had a choice between BB and Nawaz Sharif, I would choose BB 24 hours a day 7 days a week to run Pakistan.

Benazir`s Government with all its drawbacks had a direction to it... she knew what was required. Her government was re-introducing Joint electorates, and doing a lot of things she claims to have done against obscurantists...

With Prez Mush to keep a check on BB and slap her into line, I think BB will make a fine Prime Minister!

-YLH

I agree with you Mr. Siddiqui, she does make Pakistan look good, when she speaks to the Western media. Although, I think she`s no better than the jahil politicians of our country, when it comes to her policies and their implementation in general, but one has to admit, she`s very eloquent.

Having said that, I hope though, she never comes back to power, her revenge-stricken ways are a cancer for not only herself but for Pakistan as well. If only Harvard and Oxford could have taught her better lessons.

A good report.

Regards,

Kiran

They say that behind every successful MAN there is a WOMAN.

Benazir reminds us that behind every failed WOMAN there is a MAN.

Benazir should also have the courage to talk about the role of `agencies` in Pakistan - namely the ISI. After all they are suspected to have murdered her brother Murtaza Bhutto. With every passing day we are beginning to see how dangerously close to destruction the military and its intelligence apparatus has brought Pakistan.

Come on BB...the world has changed and you are beginning to look like a political manikin about to land up in some stores dumpster. You senselessly stole money with you knave of a husband assisting you. Your loot in power projects alone bankrupted the energy sector of the country. Even your closest allies like Aitzaz Ahsan have expressed surprise and outrage at the greed and kleptomania of your stays in office. Shame on you and shame on the people who want you back in there....

Kafir Khan,

You have spoken the language of `jiyalas` and nothing more, ... I admire Zulfikar Ali Bhutto in many ways, but I am no longer a jiyala.... and I can see how what you have written is nothing but a joke.

Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was removed from office because he was playing a geo-strategic game which would have thrown Pakistan`s lot in with the Soviet Union, and then we would have three Pseudo Socialist regimes running three countries in the region... Afghanistan, Pakistan and India.... or so America thought... I think Bhutto was just increasing the weightage of Pakistan as part of the great game...

America, especially in the 1970s, could have cared less about the Islamic conference or a third world conference... infact an Islamic conference and possibly a Pan-Islamic confederation would have been welcomed by the United States in those days against the Soviet Union....

But for god`s sake for the last time, listen to Musharraf... we have to proactive to the world environment in the sense, that we have to discern the trends and move accordingly ... what Bhutto did in the 1970s was necessary according to that time, ... if Bhutto had been alive today, his foreign policy wouldnt be much different from Musharraf,... had Bhutto been alive and followed the `Pan-Islamic Pan-Socialist` rhetoric today he would not be the brilliant strategist that I think he is.

Ferozk,

The problem with Pakistan IMHO is that there are many centers of power which are capable of destabilizing a democratically elected government if their interests are threatened. It was proven that such a deliberate attempt by elements within the army resulted in her ouster the last time. Note also that Nawaz Sharif was kept in the dark by and large about the Kargil operation.

Now I am not saying both of them are angels but when the will of the people as represented by an elected government is thwarted by subversive elements then there is not much hope. And laying the whole blame at the feet of BB and NS doesn`t help.

As far as corruption goes, there are junior ministers in India whose greed would put BB to shame. Rajiv Gandhi, Sukh Ram, Lalloo Prasad of Bihar to name a few have sipohoned off billions of dollars yet India has $40 billion plus in the bank. There is something more fundamentally wrong with Pakistan than corrupt politicians.

This is a bit of a tangent but I would like to bring everyone`s attention to Pakistan`s constitution`s Part 2 Chap1

QUOTE:

`20. Subject to law, public order and morality:-

(a) every citizen shall have the right to profess, practise and propagate his religion; and

(b) every religious denomination and every sect thereof shall have the right to establish, maintain and manage its religious institutions.`

I agree with you Mr. Siddiqui, she does make Pakistan look good, when she speaks to the Western media. Although, I think she`s no better than the jahil politicians of our country, when it comes to her policies and their implementation in general, but one has to admit, she`s very eloquent.

Having said that, I hope though, she never comes back to power, her revenge-stricken ways are a cancer for not only herself but for Pakistan as well. If only Harvard and Oxford could have taught her better lessons.

A good report.

Regards,

Kiran

Jiye Bhutto

Remembering another great lady of Pakistan`s neighboring country on her 17th death anniversary. She was killed on October 31, 1984

Former Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi missed

Seventeen years after her assassination, former Indian prime minister Indira Gandhi is still remembered as one of the most powerful leaders of the world`s largest democracy.

Many people may have forgotten her death anniversary on Wednesday, but Gandhi`s monolithic memory remains etched in public fancy.

Gandhi, who ruled India for 16 years over two spells, was gunned down by two security guards at her residence in New Delhi on October 31, 1984. This followed her order to the Indian Army to storm Sikhdom`s holiest monument, the Golden Temple in Amritsar, to quell a separatist campaign.

In the past few years, whenever governments fell and prime ministers dithered over pressing issues, it would be a rare occasion when people did not recall Indira Gandhi`s stern, even arrogant demeanour and iron-handed rule, marred only by the ``Emergency rule`` of 1975-77 when she jailed thousands of critics.

India misses her, say a cross-section of citizens who voted her the best prime minister the country ever had in an opinion poll published in August.

Chosen by Congress bosses in 1966 as a prime minister they thought they could easily manipulate, Jawaharlal Nehru`s daughter stunned everyone by quickly building a mass following, splitting the century-old party, and establishing herself as the unquestioned leader - the only ``man`` in her Cabinet as some said.

Nothing that she accomplished is remembered more vividly than the way she led India to a decisive military victory over arch foe Pakistan in 1971, breaking up that country`s eastern wing, which became an independent Bangladesh.

That came barely two years after she brought about radical changes in politics, injecting large doses of socialism, and went on to turn India from a food deficit to a self-sufficient economy, and took the country closer to the Soviet Union.

Domestically, however, she scored poorly.

She deftly - and often brusquely -- handled party leaders who ranged from noisy rebels to greasy sycophants. Gandhi proved vulnerable only when it came to her younger son Sanjay Gandhi, whom she tried to groom until he died tragically in a plane accident in June 1980.

There was a strong mind under the head of close-cropped hair with the signature silver streak, concede admirers and detractors alike.

Asked by India Today news magazine who they thought was India`s best prime minister, 41 percent of the readers gave the mother of two the highest points, piping her father and independent India`s first prime minister Jawaharlal Nehru (13 percent), present Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee (11 percent) and Lal Bahadur Shastri (9 percent), at the post.

``It is hard to come by a leader like that. If only she were alive today,`` remarked Anil Joshi, an executive with an international bank who claims he is politically neutral.

Had she been alive she would have been 84, but he told Indo-Asian News Service that he found it hard to imagine that even a decrepit Gandhi could not run the government as she did till 1984.

Even Jagdish Prasad Mathur, a leader of the Bharatiya Janata Party, attributed some of the after sheen of the Indira persona to the canonisation of the dead.

``Past leaders are always remembered. She is also being remembered as a good leader,`` said Mathur, one of the founder members of the Jana Sangh that was born as an alternative to the Congress in 1951.

Mathur admitted that she was an effective prime minister.

``She was daring and decisive -- such as is needed in any good leader.`` The flipside, however, was her hunger for power.

To many minds, nothing compares to the audacity of the Emergency rule. Gandhi took this drastic step when her election to the Lok Sabha was challenged and a court unseated her.

Says Khushwant Singh, a noted writer-historian and a family friend of the Gandhis: ``She was dynamic but she also destroyed all institutions of democracy.``

There were two different facets to the same person. She was decisive, yet she put loyalty to her person above loyalty to the party and the country, sometimes at a great cost, Singh opined.

``Today`s leaders are namby-pamby. They cannot make up their minds and always pander to their supporters,`` he observed. ``I think what India needs today is a leader like Indira Gandhi but one who has learnt the lessons from her mistakes.``

Over the years, Gandhi`s charismatic personality seems to have prevailed over her dictatorial ways. She was named ``Woman of the Millennium`` in a BBC poll in 1999. She upstaged even Queen Elizabeth II.

Former prime minister Inder Kumar Gujral does not like comparisons but says: ``There may have been faults in her policy, but viewed as a whole, she served the country to the best of her capacity. She had courage.``

its a sad story for a country which can only produce these kind of leaders. with no shame left she is back yearning for the Chair again. What nauseating feeling...I`ve read the TFT editorial and just confused and sad what choice do the poor pakis have. Leave the scoundrel and not elect them and then face the bearded Jackals eating u.

What dilema we are facing. of 140 million, not a single person with atleast some good and honest leadership!

Why are we are blaming our stars! then

RE: RAS Siddiqui

Dear Mr. Siddiqui, Benazir Bhutto is a crook, being a journalist you should know better than ordinary folks like me. Like Romair said, ``she is doesn`t make Pakistan look good.`` All she does is lie, lie, steal, lie, steal some more and lie some more. Is this something to be proud of? that our leaders are shameless liers and thieves?

A while back she came to my city on a speaking engagement and I knew the local professor who arranged her engagement. What was funny, shocking, and sad at the same time was the fact that this guy would diss her in private meetings in front of us locals, but in his introduction to this Lady in waiting he compared her to Joan of Arc, I almost puked! So much so for the integrity of an educated man. This guy held nothing back, it was very tragic seeing him tumbling over for a photo op...:-).

Her father reduced the country to half her size and she and her husband looted it blind. Do you want to add anything else to it. I think the most appropriate thing for us expats to do is to boycott these ``so called leaders`` meetings here, and make it very public. No one should even acknowledge them in the hope that they will shut up one day.

A message from Salman Ahmad of Junoon:

Please donate to the Afghan Refugee Fund, a way Pakistanis around the world can help these poor people out.

UNITED FOR PEACE FUND

muslim commercial bank,

zamzama branch 1443

karachi,pakistan

US$ account # 105-1

The swift code(routing number for the mcb branch)

is: MUCBPKKAA

intermediate bank: CITIBANK N.A.

111,wall street,new york 10043 usa

1096-0607 USD

swift code CITIUS33

Dear Mr. Siddiqui:

Ms. Bhutto makes no one other than herself look good. The truth about her is absolutely ugly and Pakistanis are left deeply disappionted, betrayed. Educated in universities we could not hope to afford, promoting ideals, the harsh reality of our lives would only allow in moments of weakness. The Pakistani nation trusted her twice to deliver. Only her husband and her croonies became million and billionaires. She herself is reputed be a Billionaire; Shame. One day, Pakistanis, in the hundreds and thousands, will be among the ranks of those who create wealth, instead of misappropriate it.

Lets face an uncomfortable fact, Pakistanis and Americans have a distance between them. This distance is one of Freedom, Reason, Prosperity, Education, Empowerment, economic and gender, Enablement (if there is such a word) of the soul.

I don`t mean to belittle the sentiment you expressed; every person, especially minorities, want to be seen as exemplry, emotionally and in real terms, they need the approval of the majority.

For Pakistanis, while the distance between us and Americans or anybody else for that matter, will remain, the struggle must be to project the postive about ourselves as people, our ambitions our ideals, and how close we have come to our own ideals. If we are to influence and effect the perceptions of others, Winning our self respect, is the most important step we can take. We say we believe in enabling and empowering Pakistani citizens, we say we see the freedom of conscience as a societal value, we say that as a Muslim, freedom is the need of the soul and poverty is the work all that is negative, unholy in the world. Well, as soon as we begin to make real our ideals and be the persons of our ideal, whether American or whatever or whoever, will see that we are the kinds of people who make themselves worthy. Ms Bhutto will not be among these.

What the CNN & bbc do not report.

A muslim is a muslim.Not a shia,not a sunni,not whatever,not a liberal/moderate kind of flimflam...these are merely `Excuse-me muslims`.It is sad that secular society is so oppressive that muslims have to go into these `excuse-me` taqqayaas.These are just survival devices in an oppressive climate.Mr.Asif Naqshbandi & other puritans of his kind must display empathy & understanding towards those who are subjected to the cultural,economic,and political oppression & do not have the courage to confront `modern` society without compromising some outward manifestations.

Deep Deep inside one is ALWAYS a muslim.It is common knowledge that it is extremely difficult for a muslim to give up his/her faith....At most he becomes a `humanist` but still does not renounce Islam.

Unless one declares that he or his sect is non-muslim he must be considered a muslim if he claims to be one...and I mean EVERYONE,including you-know-who.

Mr.Naqshbandi!what do you say?



I`m trying to decide whether to fight in Afghanistan



ALL ALI KHAN`S DIARIES

Ali Khan Yusufzai, 25, is a former officer in the Pakistani Navy who`s now thinking about resuming his studies in marketing. He lives in Islamabad.

;;;;;;;;;;;;;



Tuesday 23 October 2001

I am a Yousafzai Pathan by caste. I was born in Abbottabad, which is in North West Frontier Province of Pakistan. My father is a contractor and my two brothers work in Islamabad, one is working in a financial institution and the other with an internet service provider.

I joined Pakistan Navy in 1992 and resigned after serving for 8-1/2 years. The whole tenure of my naval service was in Karachi. Now I have moved back to Islamabad. Since I am back into a more free life, I get in touch with people from various walks of life unlike the navy when I had to see the same people over and over again.

After September 11th, there has been a great deal of change in the attitude of people I know. They knew that day that life is not going to be the same again and they knew that they would be affected if America attacked Afghanistan. How can we not be affected by the attacks on a neighboring when events in our country or city or even down the street influence us? It`s not only the people in the big cities, but far off villages who have all eyes turned to events in Afghanistan.







I had a chance of visiting my village, a few hours drive from Islamabad tucked in mountains of Hazara division to the north, just a few days before the American air raids began. I remember it was a Friday and there was a nationwide strike call by the religious parties. My village was part of the strike. Most of my villagers are against America. They don`t consider America as our friend but as an opportunist.

I personally share the same view. I think America when in need is a friend, otherwise it is least concerned about us. In Pakistan, every one supports the Taliban`s point of view as far as the handing over of Osama bin Laden is concerned. Most people I talked to in my village think that Taliban are justified in asking for evidence before handing over Osama.

Now that America has been bombing Afghanistan for the last 14 days, people are praying for the safety of the Taliban regime and the Afghan people. I go to the mosque almost every Friday. The sermons at the mosques are usually reflective of the way people think, though many would not go public with their true feelings.

I have been to several mosques after the attacks. I feel that these attacks and the killing of civilians have only helped the people to be more sympathetic with the Taliban. Even those who are of the view that Taliban are very strict and disagree with their brand of Islam are against the attacks on Afghanistan. While many just sit quiet, some do express their anger at roadside discussions or even at protests being held every day under the auspices of religious parties, which are opposing the Pakistani military governments cooperation with the United States.

But I know a number of people back in my village and even in Islamabad who are either volunteering for Jihad against American forces or giving donations in cash and kind for Jihad.

At one point, I myself was seriously thinking of going to Afghanistan to fight against the foreign forces. I even got in touch with a few people in this regard who I knew were mobilizing people for Jihad. But I was astonished to learn that there are thousands waiting to proceed for the same purpose. I was way down the list. I even shared my intention with my father and mother, who did not have any hesitation in giving me their blessings. I am still trying to make up my mind whether I should go or not. I will not be going for Jihad purely on religious reasons, but being a Pathan it is my responsibility to stand alongside my fellow brethren when need my help. My brothers also think that Taliban are too strict in implementing Islamic rules but at the same time they would not like to see the Afghan people suffering. And Taliban are the Afghan people.

But many other people I know want to Jihad purely on religious grounds. My cousins in village are willing to sacrifice their lives because they like most of Muslims think that America has Attacked Islam and not Afghanistan. This concept is getting stronger everyday and especially when people hear that Americans are killing of the innocent civilians in Afghanistan.

A few days back I had a chance to meet a police constable who was going back to his home after duty. I asked him would you open fire on those who are demonstrating against America? He said, NO. I asked him why not and he replied, I think these protestors are right and the government is wrong in supporting America.

I wonder what is going to happen. But I do think that the situation is getting worse and people are becoming impatient. I just pray for Afghan people, because they are the victims of a situation they have not created. I think they need help, my help and your help!

OCTOBER 2001

With all due respect to Ras, I disagree that Ms. Bhutto makes Pakistan or Pakistanis look good in American eyes.

Her failures, hypocrisy and corruption have been documented in numerous scholarly works, written by people as diverse as Stanley Wolpert of UCLA, Shahid Javed Burki of the World Bank and Hasan Askari Rizvi of Punjab University.

Twice the people of Pakistan elected her to high office, and twice she failed them. Nawaz Sharif`s failures may be attributed to his lack of education, or perhaps to his lack of native intelligence.

That cannot be said of Ms. Bhutto, since she has both in ample measure. Add to that a silver tongue and striking demeanor, and you have all the elements of a successful leader. Unfortunately, she lacks character and integrity, and that explains why her performance in Pakistan has been nothing short of tragic.

I used to be a great admirer of her father, and like countless others was deeply disappointed at his performance once in office. A more ruthless, cunning and vindictive person has never governed Pakistan.

She grew up admiring him, and adopted his ways when she came to power. She will never admit that he did any wrongs, just like she will never admit that she has ever done any wrongs.

How can such a person improve Pakistan`s image, in the US or anywhere else?

Yeah, I know how it feels . . .corrupt is fine (she is like us only . . . no?) as long as there is a semblance of relative competence. And if our ``democratically elected`` rulers can give shades of royalty at fawning courtiers, then so much the better for the PR guys, right?

When will we, Pakistan or India, ever learn?

Re: Ras

Yaar, it is easy to say living in the United States that you would like to see Benazir Bhutto to rule Pakistan again, specially when you will not be living under her rule.

Ras, ever asked BB why she uses the royal pronoun ``we`` in talking about herself? Did you ever really listen to her...``my people...my government...my party...and the list goes on...``

How can BB, who is the PPP`s chairman for life and does not allow anyone to share the spot light with her, be democratic?

How can one who only thinks of herself think of others in Pakistan?

Ras, I respect your interact posts and I enjoy reading your articles, and my disagreement with you is on two issues: BB and Kashmir. You seem to be mentally strait jacketed on these two issues.

Ciao

``But all I can write here is that Benazir Bhutto makes Pakistan and Pakistanis look good in this America (that is quite a feat by itself). For that she has my support and admiration. And if someone believes that she cannot return to lead Pakistan again, they should read Najam Sethi’s editorial in The Friday Times this week. President Musharraf can use all the support he can get from Pakistan’s politicians. And according to an old Bob Dylan song (one can hope) “the times, they are a changing”.``

I feel pity for any country that looks towards people like BB as their saviour. And I feel sorry for anyone who attempts to portray people like BB, as such.

This is part of our slave mentality. We follow people who are or were in power, just because they had/have power. Just because a person can portray themselves as a liberal, should we follow them? Wake up and smell the chai. This person and her husband have robbed the country silly, not once, but twice. Both of them are on the cover sheet of every handout that Transparency International, mails to its members. Every newspaper from Dawn to NY Times to tehelka.com has highlighted her corruption. Mansions in Surrey, off-shore companies (not one, but many) in the Virgin islands, swiss bank accounts. None of which she admits to, until the evidence is overwhelming. If she were a US govt. servant, she would have been locked away, a long time ago. She would be one of the most hated people in the US.

I don`t think BB makes Pakistan look good. I think she makes Pakistanis the laughing stock of the world. There are 140 million people in Pakistan. Is she the only one we have available for a leadership position? She has never even held an entry level job in the govt. or private company. She is the chief of the feudals. She doesn`t hold elections in her own party, yet wants democracy in Pakistan. She appointed her husband as the Minister of Investment.

If a surgeon kills a patient twice, will he/she be allowed to operate on patients a third time? I am far more scared of people like BB than I am of any religious extremists. Primarily because, there are no educated people left in Pakistan who are stupid enough to follow the religious extremists. But there are still educated people left in Pakistan who are stupid enough to continue following BB.

If one uses the argument applied in this article, then Pakistanis like BB, due to their, ``liberal image`` are much better representatives of Pakistan, despite the fact they have destroyed the country (oh wait, it was the ISI that forced BB and Zardari into corruption) than people like Edhi, who don`t have a, ``liberal image,`` but have spent their whole lives building Pakistan.

The next elections will be won by PPP and PML, because Pakistan is still a feudal society, and these feudals will win regardless of which party they belong to. However, There are far more talented, honest and patriotic people than BB, who can come to the top, once people like BB, take their millions, and call it a day in Surrey. I hope the well-known rascals like BB are kept out of power, and the few relatively capable and honest PPP and PML people are allowed to come to the top.

If BB makes it back, Pakistan is doomed for disaster again, regardless of how friendly the US and Saudi Arabia gets with us. Then again, there is no shortage of people in Pakistan who believe, ``“the times, they are a changing”.

God save Pakistan from such people, and from people like Benazir Bhutto.

The whole bayarea was stinking. Smelt like dead fish. Now I know why.

[``And keeping this in mind, one has to admire her ability to make our country of origin look good in the West, especially in the United States.``]

pipliyas die hard, don`t they? This was true pre 9/11, not now.

.....bob dylan also said

Things have changed

People are crazy and times are strange

I used to care, but things have changed

Some things are too hot to touch