Whither Democracy?

#330

YLH

Once again, I am sorry to say but I have no faith in Democracy

You just lectured me on democracy when i argued for indegenous modification of western ideology.

How manytimes you change within a day

If you leave the islamic character of Pakistan how will you be different than Phillipines.??

ylh

You might want to qualify your statements a bit more carefully. Not all Pakistani-Americans can be lumped into one generalization. In fact,I would avoid making those as well.

The Pakistani-Americans of my parents generation, family and social groups tend to be quite moderate. They tend to organize on professional and cultural lines. Both my parents belong to a doctors organization, as do my aunties and uncles. My father used to organize qawwalis and mushairas for poets and musical artist from the subcontinent. I have an uncle who was one of the first Pakistani Americans to run for local government. They are les interested in trifling matters as you had pointed out, than in providing an educated, moderate viewpoint. But then, perhaps you were being satirical.

12 head

Have you noticed similarites between your behavior, posts, and the profile of the anthrax loner? I don`t think he`s too concerned about his popularity index, either...

Anyway, if you need legal defense, I can give you the number of my cousin who has been practicing law for several years. However, if she decides to pass your case up, and you need psychiatric help, I have an aunt and a cousin who could help you. They are both women and are well read up on mcps. Then again, if you need a job, perhaps my mother might be able to help you out; you see, she`s the Director of a federal govt. lab, not an employee. But you probably wouldn`t get the job; she has less tolerance for male chauvinists than I. If you do eventually get sued for online harrassment, I have a cousin who could do a documentary on you...in this case a ``he``, but his speciality is horror films, so I think it`d be quite appropo.

McGupta # 325,

Why are your reports and quotes anonymous most of the time?

[Quoting an American scholar of India]

Scholar! who? Arun ``Ron`` McBania?

[``For example, I was told by a leading professor of ``South Asian Studies`` at a major American University``]

Leading professor! who? Harsha ``Hersh`` Mclingum? major American University! which? Vijaywada Univ. of Astrology and Lingum Sciences?

[Amazing isn`t it?]

Amazing my arse. The only thing amazing is your ability to concoct false quotes.

By the way another thing, and this addressed WRT an earlier discussion we had on Education in Pakistan...

The national education document that everyone keeps harping about was NEVER ratified ... or placed as an official document...



Sajida Qureshi brings up these two points:

1) That this document has still not completed

its official protocols to be passed as a National Document for standards of a core curriculum; it is circulating as de facto but nevertheless restricted `private` document.

2) How can a document which has not met with formal scrutiny be seen amended or sections deleted when there is no formal premise for its use? This can be taken up by the Working Committee that is being set up for the Curriculum Reform of all subjects from Class I to XII as also requested by the chief executive.



The document that Hoodbhoy mentions is horrendous, but it is not a publicly enforced according to the otherside of the story... and knowing that Hoodbhoy great as he is suffers from `I-want-to-show-I-am-an-intellectual-too` syndrome ... I would rather take Sajida Qureshi`s word on this one.

-YLH

Grow up Fatimah... We have had enough of American Muslims, and Pakistani Americans already...

What is a Modern woman doing wearing a piece of ugly cloth on her head anyway... whatever her religion! Why are you people still living in the middle ages...

The Pakistani Americans are worse than the ignorant masses of Pakistan.... the ignorant masses of Pakistan dont have a choice but to be ignorant... Pakistani Americans are ignorant by choice ... Bigoted fanatical fools ... I hate you all! Die all of you Die!

A case in point: Pakistani Americans appealed to Karl Inderfurth of the Clinton Administration to stop Maleeha Lodhi`s appointment ... Reason? She is a chain smoker. Idiots,the founder of Pakistan was a chain smoker too, he died of lung cancer ...

Maleeha Lodhi is scary for Pakistani Americans... she breaks their outmoded notions of submissive pious Hijabi Muslim Pakistani woman that they want to instill in their young daughters ...

Bigoted Muslims of North America can go to hell!

-YLH

When I had heard of the Pro-Government faction of the Muslim League (Quaid-e-Azam Group) I had been falsely led into believing that this might be the resuscitation of the Old league... which died with

Jinnah`s resignation on 17th December 1947 ... but I was so mistaken... Muslim League (Quaid-e-Azam) group is made up of thugs and idiots like Ch. Shujaat Hussain, and Ejaz-ul-Haq, son of Zia ul Haq and grandson of one of the most famous leaders of Majlis e Ahrar... the rabidly anti-League and anti-Jinnah party...

Once again, I am sorry to say but I have no faith in Democracy anymore as long as thugs like Ejaz ul Haq and Ch. Shujaat Hussain are let loose... they have no vision, no identity, no future... they are selfish hereditary politicians who have now abandoned their exiled Sugar Daddy Nawaz Sharif..

I hope Musharraf tightens the noose .... and continues this `technocrat` government... which is the best way out of this mess...

-YLH

Faiza/12 Head uloo sahib

You are such a sad little case study that you didn`t understand my post fully...but as usual that didn`t stop you from blabbering about what you don`t know...

Sad little oinker, not only do the men in my immediate and extended family hold doctorates in science, medicine and engineering, but also in art, literature and enviromental policy. THAT INCLUDES ALL THE WOMEN. Ironic, isn`t it? You assumed that only the men had degrees...well to take a line from your standard line of logic, that only men acheive professional excellence. Be careful, 12 head. To take a line of logic you seem to screech at every juncture, ``when you assume something, u make an ass of u`` and YOU, in your particular case. My mother, aunt, sister,and cousins have more worth and intelligence in a strand of their hair than you do in your entire ignorant body. I have been brought up to take no bathimeezi from anyone, which is why I find you to be such a profound piece of waste. I will be enrolled in a doctorate program next year, but why bother with a stooge who can`t read the articles he posts?

Isn`t it time you learned to shut up?

Fatimah # 323

You are deploying shallow strawman arguments. The ``Western Civilizaition`` is not all decadence, nor ``Islamic civilization`` all paragon of virtue; and neither is the case vice-versa. Open your eyes, look around, and use your brains to be a better human being rather than delighting in being a pitiful, nonsense-spitting robot.

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Quoting an American scholar of India :

``For example, I was told by a leading professor of ``South Asian Studies`` at a major American University that I should ``never ever report anything positive about the BJP or Sangh Parivar``. If I did, he warned, I would ``never find a job in American academia.``

In another example, a colleague of mine submitted her manuscript for publication to Oxford University Press, Delhi, and the then editor of OUP informed her that it was a good manuscript but since it had passages that reflected positively on the Sangh Parivar they would not publish it. The editor said if she wanted to remove the passages that considered the Hindu Mahasabha and the BJP favorably, then OUP would consider publishing her book -- otherwise, it was against their policy. Amazing isn`t it?``

Different people, different crusades or jihads.

-Arun Gupta

Re Pakistani military dictator Musharraf`s speech about unresolved political disputes and frustration.

Its like an emperor with new clothes talking of new clothes. Its clear to all except pro-Army Pakistanis, which party has been the primary frustrated party for decades : namely the Pakistani Army. Pakistani Army top brass have been the primary frustrated party whether within Pakistan, in E Pakistan, in Afghanistan or in Kashmir. The Pakistani Army top brass have consistently resisted solutions except on their own terms and have shown they can go to any lengths to do so.

Two opposite types of people have been unfair to women:

1. The Westernized type who want to impose Western traditions, which include decadence and lack of values - especially religious, and deviation from normal nature. In addition to staying away from the rightly guided path, that Allah has sent prophets and holy books to show to the people and call them to abide by.

They want the Muslim woman to follow the habits of Western women, inch by inch and foot by foot as was visualized in the hadith of the prophet: ``Even if she enters the lizard`s hole she follows her even it was twisted and narrow and smelled bad.`` Nevertheless, if the Western woman enters it, the Muslim woman follows suit. Or in other word, a new kind of amicability that some tried to propagate that was known as ``Amicability of the lizard`s hole``.

Those people are not aware of what the Western woman complains of today and the negative repercussions that the `open` mixing of sexes has brought upon her, upon men, the family and the whole society. They shut their ears to the screams of dissatisfaction that filled the horizons of the Western world, as well as the screams of the scientists and literary men, and the fears of intellectuals and the reformists of the whole civilization that was affected as a result of canceling all restrictions on the mixing of sexes.

Those people also forget that every nation has its personality that is formed by its beliefs and visualized it to the universe, life, existence and the God of existence, as well as its values, heritage and customs. It is not right for a society to copy another one.



2. The second half are those who force other traditions on women but they are the traditions of the East not the West. Those traditions are given a religious color. Those people who made those claims made them from their sides; based on something that they understood, or a view that they initiated or preferred because it suits their view on women and their disrespect for her, her religion, her brains or her behavior.

Nevertheless, it is no more than the viewpoint of a human who can make mistakes due to the effect of time or place on him, the effect of his sheikhs and his school. He is opposed by other views that basing their opinions on what is Sahiih in the Glorious Quran, and in the wisdom of the Noble prophet and the stands of the companions.

I would like to state that the word `mixing` in the area of the relationship between men and women is a new word that has entered into our Muslim dictionary. It was never known to our long heritage for the past centuries, and was not known except in this period. Perhaps it was a translation of a `foreign` word that carries this meaning. Its implication is not a comfortable one to the senses of a Muslim person.

It would have been better to use the words meeting, gathering, or women`s participation with men or something .....

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Text of the General`s speech in the UN.

Mr. President

Mr. Secretary General

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I would like to extend to you, Mr. President, my felicitations on your election. I also wish to congratulate your predecessor Mr. Harri Holkeri for his stewardship of the

millennium session of the General Assembly. Deep appreciation is also due to the Secretary General, Mr. Kofi Annan for his untiring efforts to translate the vision of

the Millennium Declaration into policies and actions by the World Community.

Mr. Secretary General, please also accept my heartiest congratulations on the award of the centenary Nobel Peace Prize conferred upon you and your organization

and your election for a second term to your prestigious office.

Last year, at the Millennium Summit, all of us were looking forward to a renaissance in the new Millennium. A renaissance in the hearts and minds of people, for a

better world where peace and justice would prevail. Unfortunately, today we gather against the somber backdrop of the terrorist outrage that the world witnessed in

shock and horror on that fateful day of l l September. In seconds images of fire and death reached all of us. Thousands of innocent lives were lost in minutes. Eighty

nations lost some of their brightest and their best. Pakistan, like the rest of the world mourned the colossal loss of innocent lives. The map of the world changed and the

entire globe descended into a deep crisis. At a time of such great turmoil when there is indeed a need for clear thought and firm action, I come from Pakistan with a

message of determination and resolve as well as a message of peace for all peoples.

The General Assembly this year meets under the shadow of a horrendous act of terror perpetrated against the people of the United States, an act for which no

grievance or cause can ever be a justification, an act that must be condemned unambiguously and in the strongest words. This was an attack on humanity itself, and

we all must therefore, unite to fight this scourge.

Mr. President,

Now that the world has bonded itself to fight against terrorism, it is time for introspection. We owe it to posterity that in this dark hour we shed light on some dangerous

and growing trends, misconceptions and misperceptions which, if not cleared, may lead the world into even greater disorder and disharmony.

The religion of Islam, and Muslims in various parts of the world, are being held responsible for the trials the world is facing. This point of view is totally misplaced. Just

as all religions teach peace and love for fellow beings, so does Islam place upon its adherents the obligation to do good, to be generous, merciful, kind and just to fellow

beings. The Muslim greeting Assalam-o-Allaikm meaning ``Peace be upon you`` symbolizes the very essence of Islamic faith. Islam is a religion of peace, of

compassion and of tolerance.

Terrorism is not a Christian, Buddhist, Jewish or a Muslim belief. It is to be condemned no matter who the perpetrator, be it an individual, a group or a state.

We need to ask ourselves what really causes these extreme acts around the world. To my mind it is the unresolved political disputes the world over: disputes in Bosnia,

Kosovo, Palestine, Kashmir and other places. Unfortunately all these disputes involve Muslims, and more sadly the Muslims happen to be the victims in all which tends

to give a religious tinge to these otherwise political disputes. The lack of progress in resolution of these disputes has created in them a sense of deprivation,

hopelessness and powerlessness. The frustration gets even worse when such disputes like Kashmir and Palestine remain unsettled for decades despite the United

Nations Security Council Resolutions. The question then is, whether it is the people asking for their rights in accordance with UN resolutions who are to be called

terrorists or whether it is the countries refusing to implement the UN resolutions who are perpetrators of state terrorism. In Kashmir, Indian occupation forces have

killed over 75,000 Kashmiris attributing these killings to foreign terrorists. It is time India must stop such deceit. UN Security Council Resolutions on Kashmir must be

implemented.

Media images of the Palestinian child Muhammad Al Durrah were etched on the hearts and minds of people all over the world. It is perverse to regard the rape of

Kashmiri women as a punishment inflicted in the course of war. The images of that moment when the World Trade Centre Tower came down will remain definitive

for all the agony, disbelief and loss that people suffer from acts of terror all over the world. All forms of terror must be condemned, prevented and fought against, but

in so doing the world must not trample upon the genuine rights, aspirations and urges of the people who are fighting for their liberation and are subjected to state

terrorism.

To fight the extremist, deprive him of his motivation. The extremist survives in an environment where millions suffer injustice and indignity. Deprive him of his support

by giving the world peace, security, justice and dignity for all peoples regardless of faith, religion or creed.

A just and honourable solution for the people of Kashmir, an end to the miseries of the people of Palestine are the major burning issues that have to be addressed

vigorously, boldly, imaginatively and urgently. Unless we go to the root causes, cosmetics will only make matters worse. Consider the analogy of a tree. Terrorists are

like so many leaves, you take out some, there will be plenty more and an unending growth. Terrorist networks are branches, you prune a few and there will be others

and more growth. The only way to go, is to go for the roots. Eliminate the roots and there will be no tree. The roots, Mr. President, are the causes, which need to be

addressed, tackled and eliminated, fairly, justly and honourably. Give people back their dignity, their self-respect, their honour.

In essence, therefore, to tackle the issue of terrorism in its entirety, we need to follow a three-pronged strategy of going for individual terrorists, moving against terrorist

organizations and addressing disputes around the world in a just manner.

After the events of l1th September, Pakistan took a deliberate principled decision to join the World Coalition in its fight against terrorism. This decision has catapulted

us, once again, as a front line state in the battle against terrorism. While the people of Pakistan have accepted this new reality, they still suffer from a sense of betrayal

and abandonment, when, they were left in the lurch in 1989 after the Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan. Then also, we were a front line state and what we got in

return was three million refugees, a shattered economy, drugs and Kalashnikov culture, to be faced single handedly through our limited resources. Pakistan only hopes

that the mistakes of the past will not be repeated and Pakistan`s legitimate concerns will be addressed. Our economy again faces a crisis of a fall out of the operations

in Afghanistan. We need financial and commercial support on an urgent basis and hope that this will be forthcoming.

Mr. President,

After 11 September Pakistan had been trying its utmost with the Afghan government ever since Osama Bin Laden and AI-Qaeda became an international issue, till

the last moment, to avert military action in Afghanistan. Regrettably, we did not meet with success and the coalition operation against terrorists in Afghanistan

continues with no immediate end in sight. Sadly enough, the civilian casualties in this action are getting projected more as an open war against the already poor,

suffering and innocent people of Afghanistan. The World in general and Pakistan in particular mourns the loss of these innocent lives and sympathizes with the

bereaved. It is desirable that the military operation be as short and accurately targeted as possible. It is also essential that a fall back political strategy be evolved which

could attain the same objective as being sought through military application.

In its entirety dealing with Afghanistan, involves a three pronged strategy - the Military, Political and Humanitarian cum Rehabilitation Strategies. It must remain the

effort of the coalition to prevent a vacuum, leading to anarchy, after achieving military objectives, through immediate application of political and rehabilitation strategies.

In our view, the political set up in Afghanistan must be homegrown and not imposed, ensuring the unity and territorial integrity of Afghanistan, with a broad based,

multi-ethnic dispensation, representative of the demographic composition of the country.

The people of Afghanistan have been suffering the ravages and devastation of conflicts for over two decades. It is the moral obligation of the World Community to

support them generously. Assistance to Afghanistan should be in two forms. Firstly, the ongoing humanitarian assistance and secondly, the post-military operations,

rehabilitation and reconstruction.

To offset the ill effects of the ongoing military operation, it is imperative that we launch a more coordinated and concerted humanitarian relief effort inside and outside

Afghanistan with a more generous funding. This will go a long way to alleviate the sufferings of the common Afghan.

It is equally important that concurrently we formulate a post operation rehabilitation programme, once peace returns to Afghanistan. This effort would entail, at the

minimum, restoration of water management systems, reviving of agriculture through land development, reconstruction of physical infrastructure (roads, buildings &

utilities) and establishment of institutions.

A stable and peaceful Afghanistan is in the vital interest of the region and in particular of Pakistan. Conditions must be created for more than three million refugees in

Pakistan to return to their country. We propose the establishment of an ``Afghan Trust Fund`` under UN auspices for the rehabilitation and reconstruction process.

Mr. President,

I would now like to focus on the harsh realities in the developing countries which have a relationship with extremism of all forms. Poverty and deprivation lead to

frustration, making the masses vulnerable to exploitation by extremist organizations. It is the collective, moral responsibility of the developed world to address this issue

squarely, through substantive economic uplift, poverty alleviation and social action programmes in the developing countries. Economic imbalances have to be removed

for a just; equitable and harmonious World Order. A major step in this direction would be to reduce, if not eliminate, the debt burden, hanging as a millstone around the

necks of the poor and the under developed. The bigger tragedy of the third world is that their rulers, together with their minions, plunder the country`s wealth and are

afforded easy access and safe havens to stash away the loot in the First World. Since long, restrictions have been imposed on laundering of drug money and recently

money for terrorists is being choked. Why can similar restrictions not be imposed on loot money laundering?

I appeal through this forum to all the developed countries to legislate against deposits of ill-gotten money, to assist in investigation against the looters and to ensure the

early return of the plundered wealth to the countries of their origin. In fact, I would not be far off the mark if I stated that with the return of this looted money, many of

the developing countries may be able to pay back their debts and revive their economies.

Mr. President,

Pakistan is also deeply conscious of the nuclear dimension of the security environment of our region, the danger it poses and the responsibility it places on nuclear

weapon states, particularly the two nuclear states in South Asia. We are ready to discuss how Pakistan and India can create a stable South Asian security mechanism

through a peaceful resolution of disputes, preservation of nuclear and conventional balance, confidence building measures and non-use of force prescribed by the UN

Charter. In this context, we are ready to discuss nuclear and missile restraints as well as nuclear risk reduction measures with India in a structured, comprehensive and

integrated dialogue.

Pakistan is fully alive to the responsibilities of its nuclear status. We have declared a unilateral moratorium on nuclear testing. Pakistan was not the first to initiate

nuclear tests and will not be the first to resume them. We are ready to formalize a bilateral treaty with India for mutual test ban. We have strengthened our export

controls and have established multi-layered custodial controls on our nuclear assets. Let me assure you all, that our strategic assets are well guarded and in very safe

hands. We have constantly upgraded our command and control measures and instituted an elaborate nuclear command control mechanism for iron clad custodial

controls to ensure the safety and security of our assets. Pakistan is opposed to an arms race in South Asia, be it nuclear or conventional. We will maintain deterrence

at the minimum level.

Mr. President,

I would now like to very briefly cover the internal developments in Pakistan. Over the past two years the focus has been on our Economic Revival, Poverty Alleviation,

Improving Governance, Political Restructuring and Introducing Genuine Democracy in the country. We have successfully put in place a sound democratic structure,

based on empowerment of the people at the grass root levels. A revolutionary step has been taken by providing 1/3rd of the seats to women at District level governing

councils.

I want to put on record in this august gathering that Pakistan is proud of this representation and empowerment of women, which is a unique feature in the world. Our

resolve of holding elections to Provincial and National Assemblies and the Senate in October 2002 in accordance with the road map announced last August, will remain

unchanged inspite of the prevailing environment in the region.

Mr. President,

In conclusion and, in keeping with this time of enormous trial and tribulations we are going through, I wish to make an appeal.

An appeal for the sake of mankind, for the sake of our future generations and for the sake of a better world.

Let justice prevail, let no people be wronged, let sufferings be eliminated, let discontent be addressed, let humanity rise as one Nation to eliminate subjugation of the

weak, and let there be PEACE.

Thank you.

Re: Bapu/Shah

``;-)THIS GUY WINKS AT GIRLS!!``

He winks at girls, you wink at boys. What`s the difference?