Whither Democracy?

Kashmir

``don`t you get tired of arguing the ``facts`` ? ......... now here is a fact for you - posession is 99% of the law ....... do i have a suggestion...no``(hamidm)

I have one -- leave Kashmir as it is -- neemey durooN -- neemey burooN -- but both in the hands of Kashmiris -- minus the mujahideen terrorists --minus the Indian army tyrants -- and live happily everafter -- aur bhi ghum haiN zamaney meiN Kashmir ke sawa -- (with aopology to Faiz for breaking one leg of his couplet).

MAZARE SHARIF MAZARE SHARIF MAZARE SHARIF

LIBERATED LIBERATED LIBERATED

BEGINNING OF THE END OF SCOURGE CALLED TALIBANS

Thank you George Bush!!

Thank you Northern Alliance!!!

Thank you our American Pilots!!!!

For liberating the WOMEN OF MAZARE SHARIF.

GOD BLESS AMERICA

RE: Reply #: 256 lajwanti

``Aitchisonians condemn America!

Editor Hamid Mir of Ausaf wrote in his column that CNN reporter Christiane Amanpour was greatly disabused when she interviewed children from Aitchison College Lahore and heard them say that America was unreliable and had eaten up Pakistan`s money which it had paid for the F-16s. They said they condemned the 11 September attack but would condemn Osama bin Laden only when they saw the proof that he had been guilty. The editor asked General Musharraf to add the boys to the 10 percent extremists who oppose him.``

I wonder how many of these characters will be making a beeline out of Pakistan to the U.S. when they finish their local studies.

From the friday times

Qazi Hussain Ahmed is convinced that by putting Pakistan itself at stake he stands a chance of becoming the Amir-ul-Momineen (Leader of the Faithful). For Qazi Sahib that is a fair bet. President Musharraf tied a knot with the Americans and his government’s future now has a direct correlation with the success or failure of the American campaign in Afghanistan. For Musharraf, it was the greater national interest that drove him to tie that knot.

Jama’at-i-Islami Pakistan has now forged an alliance with Jamiate-Ulema-e-Islam (Samiul Haq), Jamiat-e-Ulema-e-Islam (Fazl), Markazi Jamiat Ahle Hadith, Jamiat-e-Ulema-e-Pakistan and Tehreek-e-Ja’fria Pakistan (TJP). Ordinarily, every one of the above-mentioned parties hates the other more than it actually hates the West. These, however, happen to be extraordinary times and the clerics are bent on drawing maximum political capital out of chaos.

In the 1997 general elections, the JUI(F) won 2 seats and a total of 327,683 votes or 1.83% of the total valid votes polled. In the 1993 general elections, Islami Jamhoori Mahaz (IJM) obtained 483,007 votes or 2.36% of the total vote. In the 1990 elections, the JUI(F) got 62,214 votes or 0.29% of the total while the Jama’at Ahl-e-Sunnat (JAS) managed 1,992 votes. In the 1988 elections, the JUI(F) polled 360,526 votes or 1.84% of the total and Tehreek-e-Nafaz-e-Fiqah-e-Jafria (TNFJ), now TJP, got 42,216 or 0.22% of the total. As a matter of record, some of the non-Muslim parties have been able to poll more votes.

On September 11, President Musharraf pledged “unstinted cooperation” and later claimed that an overwhelming majority of Pakistanis were with him. It is my perception that the President was right back then. On October 7, the Americans began bombing Afghanistan and have since dropped a million tons of bombs. That translates to 40 kilos of bombs for every man, woman and child in Afghanistan. Since that day in October, there has actually been a perpetual tug-of-war between the Pakistani mind and Pakistani heart (to use Khaled Ahmed’s phrase). It is true that there is very little common between an average Pakistani and the Taliban. It is also true that there are 26 million Afghanis and a mere 50,000 Taliban. Pakistani mind captures those distinctions but more and more Pakistani hearts have since been flowing towards the innocent Afghani lives that are being lost.

It is my feeling that Pakistanis motivated enough to come out onto the streets against the American campaign have already shown their faces (whether the Americans continue bombing during Ramadan or not). That, however, does not mean that the sentiment of the ‘silent majority’ has been static. I sense a significant shift in favor of Afghanistan and against the American-led undertaking. This ‘silent majority’ may not ever come out on the streets (and may never vote for the Islami jama’ats) but the presidential claim made right after September 11 no longer holds true.

If the Americans continue the bombing during Ramadan, the country in real trouble may actually be Saudi Arabia. To be certain, the Saudi monarchy is America’s favorite ally in the region.

Musharraf has no choice but to continue supporting the alliance. Time continues to be of essence. If America fails to achieve its objective in the following weeks then our religio-political entities may be able to stir up more trouble than the military government can handle. The president’s appetite to form some sort of a partnership with a political entity is, therefore, dependent on how much action can the Jama’atis generate. If a political partnership is to be sought the potential partner must fulfill at least two prerequisites. First, it must have proven grass-root public support. Second, it must be ideologically aligned with the military mind-set. The only political party that meets both those criteria is the Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP).

If America succeeds, then Musharraf can also count on sunny days ahead. General Loepoldo Galtieri of Argentina lost the Falklands War and had to vacate the presidency.

#266 bong_dongs

I haven`t been following the Chomsky-Hitchens debate. I like them both and Sep 11th has polarized the left even as it has apparently united everyone else. Altho i do keep hearing alternate voices, not Chomsky fans, not the greeenies, but your average Joe who is unsure if what`s going on will make anything right.

I don`t know what you mean by Chomsky ``milking his thesis``. The issues he has been talking about are very much alive and now, more than ever, there`s a greater need to debate issues even as the Feds are tightening their grip on civil liberties.

Chomsky is a self-hating jew to the zionists. The zionists are very much active and so must the self-hating jew be to counter them..

Re: Gowardhan #243

`Please tell me how you can be friends with this country...``

Friendship between individuals is not the same as friendship between countries. If the poor girl in Baluchistan is ill-treated, your animosity should be towards her tormentors. To use that as an example and direct your anger with a broad brush towards all in Pakistan is wrong. Do all people in Pakistan share the opinion of her tormentors? No, Asma Jehangir does not. Do all people remain silent spectators and do nothing. Perhaps (but, again Asma Jehangir does not). Does the State remain a mute spectator? Perhaps. So, then your anger should be directed towards the State, not the country (which is more than just the State).

Re: Stuka

``... point is that those Hindus could have moved in 1947, but they let themselves remain under an Islamic dispensation. They don`t deserve any better...``

You are assuming that all Hindus in Pakistan (or all Muslims who remained in India) had free choice of migrating. Many simply did not have the financial means to move. Chances are that many who stayed behind fell in that category. That said, `they don`t deserver any better` is outright cruel, cold and lacks any compassion.

Gowardhan,

DO YOU HAVE THE GUTTS TO DO THE RIGHT THING? READ THIS POST COMPLETELY! Make a difference in India.... India needs you more than Pakistan... For god`s sake concentrate on your OWN country! Leave us, we have Asma Jehangir, we have Hoodbhoy, we have many... you only have Arunduti Roy... Help her out. As usual Gowy is going to run away now.



Human Rights Watch says:

`Some 160 million people in India live a precarious existence, shunned by much of society because of their rank as ``untouchables`` or Dalits—literally meaning ``broken`` people—at the bottom of India`s caste system. Dalits are discriminated against, denied access to land, forced to work in degrading conditions, and routinely abused, even killed, at the hands of the police and of higher-caste groups that enjoy the state`s protection. Dalit women are frequent victims of sexual abuse. In what has been called India`s ``hidden apartheid,`` entire villages in many Indian states remain completely segregated by caste. National legislation and constitutional protections serve only to mask the social realities of discrimination and violence.`

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/hrwpubs/brokpeopap19.html



A List of reports:

`There have been numerous incidents of human rights violations in Assam and Northeast India during the past twenty or more years. India, although lauded as the largest democracy in the world, has a consistently poor record in terms of human rights violations. Places where people have been tortured, maimed and killed by the Indian army, paramilitary forces, and the police on numerous occasions are primarily in Kashmir, Punjab, Assam, and the Northeast India`

http://piglet.uccs.edu/

Bong Dongs,

Admittedly I havent been following the Hitchens/Chomsky debate, but I do feel that Mr. Hitchens is a bit of a loose spark plug. I mean, do you remember how Hitchens wrote this awful profile of Mother Theresa? Was it entirely necessary? I don`t know how reliable I find him. Can you write a bit more about this Chomsky/Hitchens dialogue?

Chomsky`s analysis is pretty solid, he`s been out in the world for a while, and there are still people who refuse to admit the linkages he makes are legitimate. Well, as they say `Denial is not just a river`... Do you have any suggestions on theorists who have been contributing new perspectives?

regards

Zico

re: Naipaul

Three decent books The Enigma of Arrival being the best...nothing Nobel worthy since...disturbing subtexts in several of his books that generally deal focus on African Americans...someone who hasn`t transcended amy limitations in examining movements in a fresh light...nothing personal, but the past Nobel prize winners had an undeniable commitment to progressive frameworks.

regards

RSaxena:

``as for dinner at ylh`s, i had offered to take the guy out on the town (drinks on me) and help him find a hottie (iranian, paki, turkish...whatever) so he forgets jinnah and kashmir for a bit...but i guess he wasn`t interested``

What the...YLH gives you galis, and you invite him for drinks. Even I have made lame Delhi wala jokes, but I get no invite to drinking and partying?? Esp since you know that I`m from Delhi, and there is shortage of happening places. :(

Gowardhan,

There are many people who are pointing out problems like that in Pakistan, but you have multitude of problems in India.. Austrian priests get burned, mosques get destructed etc ... I can start quoting Amnesty International etc and you will not be able to run....

I am going to ask you the last time... Let Asma Jehangir and other such brave Pakistanis handle Pakistan`s problems, you should concentrate on Problems in India which are in many cases much more severe.

-YLH

Rsaxena,

I was not aware of your invitation. I`ll accept if you invite me again.... :)

Ahmed Madni,

Gowardhan you are funny funny person... We know you are Ahmed Madni... let me tell you something else, Most of the `Madnis` stayed behind in India, because the famous religious fanatic Maulana Madni supported Gandhi.

In any event, Asma Jehangir is a great Pakistani patriot and we need more like her in Pakistan.

Gowardhan continued:

Ironic isnt it that Arundati Roy according to you people is the result of India`s free society and Asma Jehangir is the result of Pakistan`s oppression.

In any event, now you are quoting her, but a few years ago when she was in India bashing Indian policy on Kashmir, you people were calling her an `Islamic fundamentalist.`

Stuka to Gowardhan:

`You seem to make this anger very personal, whereas the situation itself is not. You are imagining one uniform entity like Pakistan. Imagine people instead. Individuals. Visualize Binifer`s wedding and all the stuff that she has to make decisions on. Visualize TAhmed on vacation in Lahore, picking up cassettes of Noor Jehan. Imagine People, in their day to day lives, enjoying the simple pleasures of life, and you will see that individuals are not that objective. Yes, it`s all easy to visualize the bearded red eyed hate filled Mulla (UrsTruly in five years), but evil exists every where. I can just as easily visualize scores of Dalits being hacked to death.`

Thankyou :).

-YLH

Dear tahmed, YLH and hamidm:

could any of you three -- or all three of you explain to me -- what Salat Ordinance is -- that musharraf has just approved -- -- and what is its significance?



Thanks

ms. Asma Jehangir is comunist and not serious thought person, wears lipstick and immodest behaviour,oover educatel fool, more foren type anti muslim, goes to india often,i do ot take serous such person, is ngo type. thaks/ this will clarify ok . bye

Gowardhan:

``Dont just tell me I hate Pakistan. Tell me how anyone can tolerate these facts. ``

Gowardhan, I can personally tell you many horror stories of india also, specifically Kashmir. But that is not the point. The point is that those Hindus could have moved in 1947, but they let themselves remain under an Islamic dispensation. They don`t deserve any better. Same goes for Hindus of Bangladesh, who infact got 2 choices. They made their bed, let them lie in it.

Of course, if the Pakis come marching down to lecture us on Human Rights in Kashmir, then from a pragmatic viewpoint, we must have a million such references, so as to ridicule their moral pretensions, and rub their faces in dirt.

You have now, because of your hatred, wasted an excellent story. This story could have been brought out the next time UrsTruly lectured us on Human Right violations in Kashmir.

You seem to make this anger very personal, whereas the situation itself is not. You are imagining one uniform entity like Pakistan. Imagine people instead. Individuals. Visualize Binifer`s wedding and all the stuff that she has to make decisions on. Visualize TAhmed on vacation in Lahore, picking up cassettes of Noor Jehan. Imagine People, in their day to day lives, enjoying the simple pleasures of life, and you will see that individuals are not that objective. Yes, it`s all easy to visualize the bearded red eyed hate filled Mulla (UrsTruly in five years), but evil exists every where. I can just as easily visualize scores of Dalits being hacked to death.

So let`s just keep things in perspective ;)