The Laying to Waste of the World: a Memory of I.H Burney

dost-mittar #485
`` More importantly, he is the first Pakistani leader who does not harp on the U.N. resolution and is prepared to deal with the ground realities.``

dost-mittar, he is the first Pakistani leader who harps on the UN resolution as policy and not as rhetoric. There are many statements from himself and the members of his government on this. He mentioned the UN resolution even in his recent UN General Assembly speech:
http://www.un.int/pakistan/120011110.html
``...The frustration gets even worse when disputes like Kashmir and Palestine, remain unsettled for decades despite the United Nations Security Council resolutions. The question then is, whether it is the people asking for their rights in accordance with UN resolutions who are to be called terrorists, or whether it is the countries refusing to implement the UN resolutions who are the perpetrators of state terrorism. In Kashmir, Indian occupation forces have killed over 75,000 Kashmiris attributing these killings to foreign terrorists. It is time India must stop such deceits. UN Security Council resolutions on Kashmir must be implemented... ``

The Pakistani Army is primary frustrated party here, IMO and IMO Musharraf thinks that finally he is the first one making Pakistan`s case without a.90,000POWs and a lost war, b. without soldout politicians anxious to do business with India. On the other hand he is totally unrealistic about what he can get from India through exercising indignation, world opinion against conflict and jihad, though.

tahmed #473:

``While it is great that there is democracy in India, do you seriously believe that 1.2 billion Indians speaking zillions of different languages, and suffering from billions of prejudices - linguistic, ethnic, caste, religion, - would in fact not splinter if there was no military force prevent that?``

tahmed, do you think it is the 1 million Indian army that is keeping the 1 billion Indian nation together? Several lakh Indian soldiers are barely coping with preventing the Kashmir valley from `splintering` (as you put it), which has a pop of only 4 million or so. No army can keep together a country as large as India unless its people did not want to stay together in the first place.

rsaxena#411;

{With the Northern Alliance likely to have some sort of role in a new Afghani government, it is time for India to leverage its friendship with them to create an active Western front for Pakistan...a little action to give Pakistan a taste of its own medicine viz-a-viz Kashmir.}

- I agree completely. Brilliant idea. Musharaffs haemmoroids are gonna explode.

hamidm#410;

{but one one issue you are right - most pakis, including rabid mullahs and equally rabid apostates, agree that india is an implacable enemy who doesn`t need an excuse to try and harm pakistan ..... it is the nature of the beast }

- Swap it around and that is the exact same reason why Indians hate Pakis. Long may it continue.

ali1 470

[The perpetrators of `93 Bombay riots have been isolated now.]

Perpetrators of Bombay riots, ISI and their frontman Dawood Ibrahim, live in Pakistan and shoot dirty dogs like you for target practice.

[Which Pakistani newspaper has questioned Shias` allegiance to Pakistan? Samna, Organizer, and Hindu Rashtriya question Muslims allegiance to India everyday.]

You are stupid and also pathetic. Sunni extremists question not only Shia`s allegiance to Pakistan, calling them agents of Iran, they brand Shias Kafirs and kill them. Did any of those 60+doctors shot in Karachi belong to your family? Useless to ask that question because a cabdriving family wont produce doctor good enough to be killed by anyone.

[Which Pakistani Prime Minister has called the destruction of a Shia Imambargah and its conversion to a Sunni Mosque to be the ``national will`` of Pakistan? You know which Indian PM said that about a muslim mosque.]

Ordinary shias are shafted in Paksitan despite having played role in creating (not dividing)Pakistan, despite never having ruled over the majority Sunnis for thousand years, despite not having erected Imambaras over destroyed mosques, despite no Shia ever claiming to have a natural role to rule over Sunnis like cowards like you always do on Chowk. Pakistan does not have Iranians claiming to speak for Pakistani shias, Sunnis do not have an Iran justifying its existence by training Shias and sending them to Pakistan. Shias gave everything to create Pakistan but still are killed because they are shias. I wonder how many Shias will be left alive in Pakistan if Shia majority places began asking for *independence * in collaboration with Iranians.

Indian Muslims and Hindus are working to leave behind huge historical problems thosand years old and leave behind the criminality of creation of monstrosity called Pakistan. Paksitani Shias worked with Pakisani Suunis to create Pakistan and still are shot like dogs. Trying to save pathetic little self respect by ignoring facts singing Pakistan zindabad is the last option for a pathetic man. Even dogs have more self respect than a man like you.

Dhobi ka kutta na ghar ka na ghat ka aur woh bhi ganda kutta.

INDIA SHOULD HELP PAKISTANIS,

Allegedly, there are thousands of pakistanis in kunduz in afghanistan ready to surrender, but are afraid that the NA will slaughter them as it happened in other places. India should help the pakistanis in this hour of need.

If tiger niazi is still around, irrespective if his age shoyld be made incharge of the pakistanis in afgh. He knows the surrender procedure, remove the bullets from the rivolver, hold it one hand etc..the routine taught to all the pak military officers. Jagjit arora is still alive, and the rest is repition of history.

Pakis never learn from hostry and it is the indians privilage to repeat it till they learn.

Fuzair #447 Please do not write in a foreign language. The language you write in is the language of logic and reason. These are foreign to the sub-continent. If Indians and Pakistanis (even some folks on chowk) learnt this language, they would be forced to get serious about things (like cleaning up their stinking neigborhoods).

soysauce #463 You write ``As i see it, without kashmir as an issue, pak army would not be as important.`` Agreed. Let me go further and say that without hostility with India it would be even less important. THOWEVER, the same is true of the Indian militarism too, and so you are not saying very much. Militarists in India and Pakistan are each others best friends, and the worst enemies of the poor and the starving and the jobless millions in both countries. One day the armchair warriors on chowk will get this through their heads, but I wont hold my breath for that day.

You write ``It`s the army that`s holding your country together with all other institutions either having been rubbished or never were allowed to take root in the first place.``

This is a jingoistic but meaningless statement. It is meaningless since this is true for virtually any state other than the handful of most civilized, culturally homogenous (like Sweden) on earth. It is jingoistic since it presumes that this statememt is true also of India, which is not the case. The fact is that India, despite the democratic institutions, is culturally no different from Pakistan in terms of divisions within society. While it is great that there is democracy in India, do you seriously believe that 1.2 billion Indians speaking zillions of different languages, and suffering from billions of prejudices - linguistic, ethnic, caste, religion, - would in fact not splinter if there was no military force prevent that?

You write ``Good intentions alone won`t get you anywhere. You need strong institutions to keep the peace to smooth out differences, etc.`` Agreed. And I will even add what you leave unspoken - that democratic institutions have taken root in India. HOWEVER, the cultural level of civilized debate and tolerance for differences is not any better than in Pakistan though (judging from my experience on chowk, at least, and from what I read in the papers). Nor, I understand, is the Indian bureacracy any more service-oriented and corruption-free than the Pakistani bureacracy. We all hope that things will improve in both countries, but that day has not yet arrive, so hold on to the champagne reserved for celebrating that day.

You write ``What is the emotional issue that keeps pakis together - islam, paki-nationalism or indophobia?`` Nations may be formed by emotional issues, but they are not kept together by emotional issues, but as explained above. Pakistan is here, and the sooner the jingoists in India learn to accept that reality and stop confirming the worst fears of the Pakistani militarists by harping about ``Pakistan-India same-same``, the sooner the two countries will learn to live like civilized neighbors. And the sooner we learn some humility rather than this childish crowing about whose country is better, the sooner will the two nations become part of the solution rather than part of the world`s problems (will hundreds of millions of poverty stricken people who quickly become jingoists when they are no longer poverty stricken).

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm

Zero-sum games people play

By Irfan Husain

I often get e-mails from Indian readers complaining of what they perceive as a preoccupation with India in the Pakistani press. ``Why can`t your papers get over your anti-India fixation?`` they ask.

Having just returned after a stimulating week in Delhi, I can safely inform them that this Pakistani hang-up is mirrored in India. Regular readers of this column will know that I have no axe to grind, no line to peddle; above all, I am not rabidly against things Indian. However, I was struck by how much space is devoted to Pakistan, and, considering how little coverage was given to world affairs by even serious papers like The Times of India and The Hindu, the imbalance was even more surprising.

In particular, the concern about Pakistan cashing in on the Afghan crisis while India was left out verged on the hysterical. Although The Times of India carried an excellent editorial questioning the Indian governments` ardent desire to jump on to the anti-terrorist bandwagon, the news slant made it clear that the Pakistani edge in the current situation does not sit well with thinking Indians. Many Indian journalists contrast what they perceive as General Musharaf`s brilliant footwork in capitalizing financially and diplomatically on Pakistan`s proximity to Afghanistan during his trip to America with Mr Vajpayee`s wooden performance there.

Above all, it is Kashmir that is the touchstone by which diplomatic success or failure is measured. During my week in India, each word uttered by Bush and Blair was analysed carefully for any pro-Pakistan tilt. By the time Musharraf returned to Islamabad, there was an almost audible sigh of relief that, while the Pakistani leader might have brought back pledges of over a billion dollars with the possibility of more to follow, he had not managed to budge the American president on his hands-off policy on Kashmir.

On Afghanistan, there was a palpable air of self-congratulation over Pakistan`s isolation in its efforts to induct `moderate Taliban` in the new government in Kabul. I personally feel this attempt is doomed to failure, given that the taliban are now history (the Lord be thanked!). In any case, a `moderate Taliban` is a contradiction in terms. But the glee evident in the Indian press over Pakistan`s desperate efforts to have a major say in the post-Taliban dispensation was slightly nauseating.

For our part, we are certainly no better: every Indian reversal in any field is welcomed in our papers, while any success is met with ill-concealed envy. But it must be said that Pakistan has greater justification (if such puerile behaviour can be justified) for this fixation than India. After all, as the far smaller and weaker nation, we can perhaps be forgiven for our paranoia and our insecurity. But what excuse does India have? In my many discussions with Indian journalists and politicians, I made the point that, given their preponderance in just about every field, they could have afforded to take unilateral steps aimed at removing Pakistani suspicions and doubts.

Indeed, Indian pressure from 1948 onwards is partly to blame for the militarization of Pakistan, as the nascent state depended on western aid and our army to shield us from perceived Indian belligerence. The perception that the armed forces were our ultimate saviours made it possible for our generals to intervene at will, thus warping and deforming political development in Pakistan.

As a result of this mindless rivalry, we are now locked in a zero-sum game in which both countries are forever trying to score points off each other, as the rest of the world races ahead, sniggering quietly while we indulge in schoolboy scraps. One nation`s gain translates automatically into the other`s loss and vice versa. In this unending rivalry, the only losers are the people on both sides, while their leaders use each other as scapegoats for their own failures. Indeed, had Kashmir not divided us, we would have probably invented some other cause to squabble over because, given the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of the leadership in New Delhi and Islamabad, we can be pretty sure they would have been unable to solve the many pressing problems that beset both nations. Leaders on both sides need a convenient excuse to deflect criticism for their ineptitude.

But if our leaders display their immaturity and their lack of vision and imagination, why does the press pander to them? As journalists, surely our job is to deflate them and hold up a mirror to their many imperfections. However, during my all-too-brief sojourn in Delhi, I was struck and disturbed by the solid consensus in the press behind core government policies and positions. While I had noticed this phenomenon on private Indian TV channels, I was taken aback to see it on display in the mainstream newspapers as well. Whatever my Indian readers might say about the Pakistani preoccupation with India, these columns (as well as those in other newspapers here) are full of articles and editorials that question and criticize many fundamental government positions ranging from Kashmir to the nuclear programme.

When General Musharraf expressed his annoyance at criticism in the Pakistani press, saying that this did not happen to the same extent in India, I thought he was exaggerating. But after my week-long scrutiny of Indian newspapers, I fear that he was not wide of the mark. When I discussed my perceptions with like-minded Indian journalists, they ascribed this malaise in the Indian print media to the price-war that has forced owners and editors to focus primarily on the bottom line: for instance, comment on the op-ed pages has been curtailed for reasons of ads. In Pakistan, there are mercifully no commercial announcements on these pages in this or any other paper. As a result, The Times of India sells for Rs 1.50. But this low price has meant that there is no editor of the paper, and nor are there any book reviews as the owners feel that the space could be put to more productive use by selling it to advertisers.

Despite the commercialization of many venerable Indian newspapers, many bright and talented journalists are fighting to preserve their integrity. Unfortunately, the policy of preventing Indian papers and periodicals from selling in Pakistan and vice versa has deprived us of gaining an insight into each other`s thinking. Although the Internet has made it possible to bridge this gap, most journalists on both sides do not log on as often as they ought to. Meanwhile, our leaders continue to let us and themselves down through their futile rivalry.

saminashah

“Semiprecious, the NY Times picture was lovely; I haven`t seen the one Tahmed was describing. Did either of you see the Peter Jennings report when a few Afghani professional women were going back to their jobs? One of these women was a radio journalist who had been forbidden to broadcast her voice. She was shown taking her seat behind a microphone, and replacing her heavy dark chador with a rose dupatta. The next moment we saw and heard an Afghani musician man singing, (such a beautiful sound) while the newscaster intoned that music was restored to the radio station after several years. Can you imagine not hearing the sound of a woman`s thoughts or a man singing for several years? My mother and I watched, choking up.”

….i saw the same report on bbc….just today they were showing kabul tv going on air for the first time in 5 years….and the journalists were, you guessed it, women…they were then interviewed by the bbc wallah, and i must say, 5 years hasn’t done anything to dampen their spunk….

Sigalph-466

[Of course I don`t expect you to understand the concepts of representative democracy or parliaments or accountability. But, as I said, just for giggles.]

The great upholder of democracy was none other than your great hero Gen.Ziaur Rahman,the first Chief Martial Law Administrator of the newly independant Bangladesh.He has the honour of killing the nascant democracy in your nation and you have the gall to tell me about democracy... very funny.He went on to reward the killers of the ``Father of Nation`` by appointing them to ambassadorial posts.And till date your great democratic party BNP refuses to accept Sh.

Mujib as the father of nation.But then the descendants of Meer Jaffar always choose the winning side..don`t they?

sadna,

#448

Good point. I wondered if you watched ``This WeeK`` on ABC. The US does not want to try OBL or Taleban in the US court system. Bush & Ashcroft are proposing the setup of military tribunals. More importantly, its no secret now that they`d rather have OBL & Al-Qeeda operatives dead; rather than be captured alive.

Fuzair,

{{So let me propose again that we accept the LOC as the international border and each side firmly squashes any separatist tendencies in its own part. Is it a deal?}}

Thats what the BJP has been implying all along. Seems like youre the only one who has figured out the bania mind. But I suspect Radio Romair will stand on the pedestal & say ``its a matter of principal``...critical mass..do the right thing..& all that good stuff.

Re: Romair #464

``...There should then be open trade, a common currency perhaps, open borders etc., with independent govts. The Sub Continent begs for a European Union type solution...``

I think that that is the best proposal that I have ever heard come from a Pakistani. I am fully with you on that.

``...India will be able to attack the Kashmiris...``

The best indicator of such `attacks` is the number of Kashmiris who have left India for Paksitan. How many Kashmiri refugees have moved to Pakistan in the last decade? I would be surprised if the number even reached 10,000 total. On the other hand, 200,000 pundits have left the Valley for other parts of India. In `71, Bangladeshi refugess exceeded 300,000 (some say 8 million) in less than 10 months. Afghan refugess reached several million in a decade of war.

Reply # 466 sigalph235

[``this what Ronald Reagan said about the martyred Ziaur Rahman, founder of the BNP:``]

You have impressed us miskeen Pakistanis. Now I suggest that all GOP gora saabs of Bangladeshi origin get this farman-e-reagan framed and hang it around their necks. That would shut up the democrat voting Pakistani and Indians for good.

Reply # 398 dost-mittar

[``There are two ways of dealing with the sick elements in a society, any society - either isolate them or condemn a whole community based on the action of a few.``]

Oh I see. The perpetrators of `93 Bombay riots have been isolated now.

I would say that they have been richly rewarded by the Hindus of Maharashtra. They have ruled most of the time since `93. Samna is a widely read publication and Bal Thackray wields enormous influence over the Maharashtra establishment even in opposition.... apart from being the most sought after social animal in Bombay. Some isolation.

[``It`s time you realise that what applies to Shia-Sunni in a muslim context can also apply to Hindu-Muslim in an Indain context.``]

This is a pathetic lie.

Which Pakistani newspaper has questioned Shias` allegiance to Pakistan? Samna, Organizer, and Hindu Rashtriya question Muslims allegiance to India everyday.

Which Pakistani Prime Minister has called the destruction of a Shia Imambargah and its conversion to a Sunni Mosque to be the ``national will`` of Pakistan? You know which Indian PM said that about a muslim mosque.

Which Pakistani police officer has been recorded by international media saying ``Maro salay Shiaon ko, bach ke na jaeN`` on his official transmitter?

Do you think the murderers of Shias (Lashkar Jhangvi etc.) will be elected to rule Pakistan by the people of Pakistan? We all know that the instigators, organizers and executors of the worst kind of violence against muslims rule India today.