The Laying to Waste of the World: a Memory of I.H Burney

Re: binifer

i`m flattered...of the hundreds of posts on this and other boards, you and your owner (that prude) read and respond to only my posts...

re: ylh

you talk big about India and NA not being able to ``do $hit`` to Pakistan...forget 1971? ... i`d say helping slice your country in half would qualify as ``doing $hit`` to Pakistan ... and exploding nukes in 1998, knowing that you would follow and get reamed by sanctions which would collapse your economy also qualifies ... no?

``Still the point remains ... Northern Alliance are ideologically a mirror image of the Taliban... let us not accept them in Kabul.. Not for Pakistan`s sake, but for the sake of women of Afghanistan.``

frankly, i`d just leave Afghans to settle their issues and figure out what they want...had they not coddled uncle osama, the world would have let them be...

For all the India bashers out there, here`s some food for thought. This is what I have always maintained - the reason for insurrection in Islamic countries is not due to perceived injustices in places like Palestine, Yugoslavia or Kashmir, rather it is due to unrepresentative governments in almost all states where Muslim are a majority.

New York Times, November 20, 2001

FOREIGN AFFAIRS

Today`s News Quiz

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN



NEW DELHI -- So, class, time for a news quiz: Name the second-largest Muslim community in the world. Iran? Wrong. Pakistan? Wrong. Saudi Arabia? Wrong. Time`s up — you lose.

Answer: India. That`s right: India, with nearly 150 million Muslims, is believed to have more Muslim citizens than Pakistan or Bangladesh, and is second only to Indonesia. Which brings up another question that I`ve been asking here in New Delhi: Why is it you don`t hear about Indian Muslims — who are a minority in this vast Hindu-dominated land — blaming America for all their problems or wanting to fly suicide planes into the Indian Parliament?

Answer: Multi-ethnic, pluralistic, free-market democracy. To be sure, Indian Muslims have their frustrations, and have squared off over the years in violent clashes with Hindus, as has every other minority in India. But they live in a noisy, messy democracy, where opportunities and a political voice are open to them, and that makes a huge difference.

``I`ll give you a quiz question: Which is the only large Muslim community to enjoy sustained democracy for the last 50 years? The Muslims of India,`` remarked M. J. Akbar, the Muslim editor of Asian Age, a national Indian English-language daily funded by non-Muslim Indians. ``I am not going to exaggerate Muslim good fortune in India. There are tensions, economic discrimination and provocations, like the destruction of the mosque at Ayodhya. But the fact is, the Indian Constitution is secular and provides a real opportunity for the economic advancement of any community that can offer talent. That`s why a growing Muslim middle class here is moving up and, generally, doesn`t manifest the strands of deep anger you find in many non-democratic Muslim states.``

In other words, for all the talk about Islam and Islamic rage, the real issue is: Islam in what context? Where Islam is imbedded in authoritarian societies it tends to become the vehicle of angry protest, because religion and the mosque are the only places people can organize against autocratic leaders. And when those leaders are seen as being propped up by America, America also becomes the target of Muslim rage.

But where Islam is imbedded in a pluralistic, democratic society, it thrives like any other religion. Two of India`s presidents have been Muslims; a Muslim woman sits on India`s supreme court. The architect of India`s missile program, A. P. J. Abdul Kalam, is a Muslim. Indian Muslims, including women, have been governors of many Indian states, and the wealthiest man in India, the info-tech whiz Azim Premji, is a Muslim. The other day the Indian Muslim film star and parliamentarian Shabana Azmi lashed out at the imam of New Delhi`s biggest mosque. She criticized him for putting Islam in a bad light and suggested he go join the Taliban in Kandahar. In a democracy, liberal Muslims, particularly women, are not afraid to take on rigid mullahs.

Followed Bangladesh lately? It has almost as many Muslims as Pakistan. Over the last 10 years, though, without the world noticing, Bangladesh has had three democratic transfers of power, in two of which — are you ready? — Muslim women were elected prime ministers. Result: All the economic and social indicators in Bangladesh have been pointing upward lately, and Bangladeshis are not preoccupied hating America. Meanwhile in Pakistan, trapped in the circle of bin Ladenism — military dictatorship, poverty and anti-modernist Islamic schools, all reinforcing each other — the social indicators are all pointing down and hostility to America is rife.

Hello? Hello? There`s a message here: It`s democracy, stupid! Those who argue that we needn`t press for democracy in Arab-Muslim states, and can rely on repressive regimes, have it all wrong. If we cut off every other avenue for non-revolutionary social change, pressure for change will burst out anyway — as Muslim rage and anti-Americanism.

If America wants to break the bin Laden circles across the Arab-Muslim world, then, ``it needs to find role models that are succeeding as pluralistic, democratic, modernizing societies, like India — which is constantly being challenged by religious extremists of all hues — and support them,`` argues Raja Mohan, strategic affairs editor of The Hindu newspaper.

So true. For Muslim societies to achieve their full potential today, democracy may not be sufficient, but it sure is necessary. And we, and they, fool ourselves to think otherwise.

Dear Chowk staff:

I must tell you this.

Looking at your ``ENTER`` logo picture -- it just reminded me of -- Kabul -- after liberation by Northern Alliance - kite flying -- a woman without burqa -- playing with her kid on the street -- eerie -- isn`t it!

Dear hamzad:

“”If conscience,as a commodity,be sold/traded/bargained to do evil or then it also be expended to give charity in return for place in heaven.what would you/anyone choose?”(hamzad afaqui)

NOW -- one can understand the Jihadi’s argument for killing innocent people and getting killed willingly – it is just SELLING their “conscience as a commodity” for a CHARITY like September 11 – “in return for a place in heaven”.

Still – I don’t believe Hazrat Ali would propose -– to say the least -- such a dubious idea. Are you sure you aren’t making it up as you go?

Anyway, thanks for explaining, my friend.

Re: Sigalph

``... the politics of `azad` Kashmir where EVERY candidate for office has to sign a declaration of supporting J&K`s accession to Pakistan...``

You might also add the woes of the Northern Areas -- which have no representative government whatsoever. In `94 an elected legislative council of 26 members was established, but the only rights it has is to receive dignitaries. The Northern Areas are governed by the Frontier Crimes Regulation (harking back from the late 19th century), under which (i) villagers have to report to the local police station every month, and (ii) movement/settlement between villages is not allowed without prior police notificaiton

Rsaxena,

Wait and see.... these are Afghans. As for me being cornered... India and Northern Alliance even if together cant do sh-t to Pakistan, not that Northern Alliance will join up with India that is.

Still the point remains ... Northern Alliance are ideologically a mirror image of the Taliban... let us not accept them in Kabul.. Not for Pakistan`s sake, but for the sake of women of Afghanistan.

-YLH

Re: Stuka

``I go to Bentley College, but support BC for football. Live pretty close to it and have some friends there. You know people in BC?``

you watch that barbarism where men jump on each and ram into each other...then they run up and down a field with an oblong thingie clutched under their arms, much like a happy dog with a bone....where one fellow was called ``refrigerator perry``...you delhiwallahs are really kookoo...

ylh #501:

``For those of you who think that the Northern Alliance (evil as it is) will become a pawn in India`s game once it controls Afghanistan, are mistaken.

``Mark my words. Pakistan has absolutely nothing to fear when it comes to the Northern Alliance.``

I agree with ylh. NA was dependent on Russia and to some extent India for arms and material, but their focus now will be to consolidate their hold on Afghanistan, implement some measure of order, finish off the Taliban remnants, extract as much aid from the West as possible etc. There is no gain for them from antagonising Pakistan - though the NA may not love Pakistan dearly.

In fact, it may benefit Pakistan because the NA, being non-Pashtuns, have no affinity for Pathans on the other side of the border, and may actually respect the Durand line - can someone more knowledgeable comment on this?

On the other hand, Pakistan may have more to fear from the remnants of the Taliban, the Arabs, Chechens and other `foreign` fighters who may be pushed out of Afghanistan and into Pakistan. If they land up in India (in J&K), Pakistan will face an image problem as they could have entered only through Pak. If they stay within Pakistan, they can cause more trouble domestically.

One must admit - the framers of Pak policies have displayed a consistent lack of strategic thinking in their foreign endeavours.

The following is from dawn of today. The author of this letter is as much a lotus eater as YLh and anNy of the chowk, cannot accept that pakistan is an islamic country and the head of state who has too be a muslim cannot send greetings to non-muslims. same with abdus salam, no pakistami can write an article in praise of a ahmadia, tarnished by the constitution.

Festivals of minority communities

In many countries the heads of state or others in important public positions as well as the newspapers send greeting messages to the minority communities on the occasion of their religious festivals. This creates a feeling of goodwill among the members of the minority communities and strengthens their sense of belonging to that country.

Unfortunately in our country, only a few English newspapers regularly send greetings on such occasions to various minority communities living in Pakistan.

I have never come across any such message from the head of the state or from the head of any province on any festival of the Hindus, Christians or Parsis.

TARIQUE KHAN

Karachi

saxena:

(Kashmir is still in India...has been for 50 years...and will continue to be.)

deluded lil twit

AGREEING WITH ylh,

...Pakistanis have nothing to fear about northern alliance.....``, that is ylh, and add a small word....`` pakis have nothing to fear about the NA for long...``

YLH, that is what happened to 2000 pakistanis in mirz e sheriff town in afgh. They were there in a school apparently, an were afraid of NA for ten minutes, after that they were with the houris.

In kunduz in afgh another set of pakistanis are hoping that they also need not be afraid for long.

I like when ylh talks truth with so much of self confidence, but with no self assurance. YLH think of the difference.

Reply IMPOSTER POSING AS FATIMAH # 520

``You are trying to pollute true muslims with unislamic thaughts``

Very clever, whoever you are, but you gave yourself away by not using semicolons (among other things)!

Who are you and what have you done with Fatimah?

“President General Pervez Musharraf on Monday said Pakistan’s decision to cooperate with the international coalition had strengthened its position on Kashmir issue besides ensuring security of nuclear assets.

“This decision was motivated by country’s core interests. Our priority was to safeguard country’s core interest of Kashmir and nuclear programme,”(Nation)

So what Mr. Musharraf is saying that by joining the US war against terrorism – he SAVED Kashmir -- btw from whom?– and he SAVED Pakistan’s nuclear weapons -- presumably from being destroyed by the US?

Now it may look like a masterly stroke of genius to “save” two birds with one ``shot``.

However, the distinguished journalist Ayaz Amir doesn’t think so -- and he has a good point. Here is what Ayaz Amir has to say about the “lost irony” on the General’s genius:

“”It is instructive to recall that when justifying Pakistan`s joining the US war effort, among the four reasons General Musharraf cited, two related to protecting the Kashmir cause and our `nuclear assets`, the irony no doubt being lost on him that supposedly our greatest strength (nuclear weapons) had turned in a moment of danger into our biggest weakness.””(Dawn)

Now what all this mishmash says -- that it`s time for Musharraf to quit playing Lone Ranger.

It’s high time to bring in the mainstream parties into the government – and their input -- into the formulations of -- some of these far reaching policies – on both domestic and foreign fronts.

There is nothing Koranic about October 2002.

Mr. Musharraf should feel by now secure enough --he can still ``remain the President`` and seek consensus from the political parties -- instead of indulging in a tiresome ``monologue`` -- with an equally -- inarticulate and semantically challenged --FM -- as his sidekick.

Reply Fuzair # 447

“Indians: If the Kashmiris (or the Sikhs or the Nagas or the whatnots) truly wish to be independent, why won`t the Indian government allow it? Isn`t that the whole point of being the World`s Largest Democracy? Or are you like the US--once in, you can never get out again? So democracy is a good thing only up to a point? You are free to do whatever you like as long as it is the same as what we want you to do?”

Fuzair

In my opinion at least two reasons most Indians won’t buy this one:

1 There is a deeply held belief among most educated Indians that India should not be divided again. Indians perceive Partition as a failure, not as the birth of their nation.

2 Related to the first point: Partition was a messy, bloody business. All partitions of areas which are “mixed” are bound to be. (And most areas are mixed according to somebody - religiously, ethnically, class-wise... ) At the end of the day you still have minorities, and the essential issue of minorities’ rights remains unresolved unless it is directly addressed.

Democracy DOES limit the right of the individual, based on the rights of other people. Anybody else’s democratic right to swing their fist ends where my face begins. Secession is India’s nose.

Best wishes

Zafar

to all the kashmir afficiandos

No doubt that Kashmir`s fate can, morally, be only decided by a free plebiscite promised to that principality over two generations ago by the UN and Pandit Nehru. On that India`s official position since Nehru`s death is simply outrageous.

That said, such criticism of India sounds genuine only when coming from the world community at large, not from Pakistan or the `ummah`. I would venture a small wager that had Pakistan itself been some kind of a representative democracy all these years, the plebiscite in Kashmir would have happened by now. India would have found it hard to be that intransigent about its broken promise when faced with something other than a fearsome military junta.

And before Pakistanis criticize India`s repression in Kashmir, I would love to see some of them talk about the politics of `azad` Kashmir where EVERY candidate for office has to sign a declaration of supporting J&K`s accession to Pakistan. Unless he is Ahmadiya, in which case the poor chap probably has to sign a lot of stuff.