The Laying to Waste of the World: a Memory of I.H Burney

Shankar, to answer your question directly: yes it seems like sheer lunacy to invest in a pipeline through Afghanistan. Nevertheless, events indicate otherwise. During the Cold War the ring of US allies against the Soviet Union were Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Pakistan among others. Today another kind of realigning is taking place, this time based on the Caspian oilfields. The access and control of oil reflects directly on the economic and military strength of a nation.When Hitler tried to get to the Caspian oilfields, they were a tempting target - but now the recent discoveries have skyrocketed its potential reserves: the numbers place it second only to the Middle East. When you translate these numbers into todays (and future) dollars, the amounts are staggering:

Total oil reserves (not counting the natural gas reserves) of the Caspian Sea region:

- More than 200 billion barrels (exceeds Western Europe and/or the United States -110 BBL)

- Second only to the Middle East (700 BBL).

World demand for crude oil : up 30% by year 2010.

US demands: up to 70% by 2010 (from 50% today)

Asian demand for oil is forecast to almost double (up to 31.7 million b/d by 2010).

This is making VIPs of people like Adzer President, Galdar Aliev and Niyazov, President of Turkmenistan, accomodated at Blair House, across the street from the White House, an honor reserved for true VIPs. Who really heard of Galdar Aliev or Niazov before? These barons of the Caspian nations had Cabinet members hosting dinners for them, and now motor about in their nations in armored Mercedes-Benzes, with troops of bodyguards at their heels. The regional wars now take on another meaning in the Armenia - Azarbaijan struggle, in Nogorno-Karabagh, Chechneya, Georgia etc - these are wars being fought for control of regions that are sitting on oil - oil which is useless, unless shipped out.

- One route is over Azerbaijan - Georgia - Turkey to Ceyhan. But the Armenia-Azerbaijan war make this uncertain. There were three assassination attempts, against the Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze - he suggested these were related to his country`s attempt to be part of a pipeline route transporting Caspian Sea oil to the Black Sea.

- The separatists of Nagorno-Karabakh have blocked the Azeri pipeline westward toward the Mediterranean, bypassing the other foe, Iran.

- Iran, in turn, is blocking the bypassing pipeline by supporting both the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh against the Azeris (the western path toward Ceyhan) and the Chechens against Russia (the northern path toward Novorossisk.). Iran can provide a direct overland route to the Persian gulf - but Iran is an enemy of the US, still viewed with suspicion (notwithstanding the recent overtures from Iran, interestingly) and the US will not trust the security of a pipeline there.

- Russia wants most of the Caspian oil to go via its territories, from Baku-Novorossisk pipeline. But this goes through Chechnya, and it is for this reason that Russia has jumped on the terrorist bandwagon - it wants to eliminate the Chechen obstacle.

- The US, however, would like to bypass Russia, and prefers going through the Caucasus. Once the oil reaches the Black Sea, however, the problem is how to remove it. The most viable option would be the Bosphorus but this would pose a potential disaster environmentally because the Bosphorus is dead water.

- The US wants to see as many different pipeline routes as possible to prevent any one country from developing a stranglehold over the flow of oil from the region and this is one reason why the Afghanistan/Pakistan pipeline has taken on an increased importance.

Just look at a few of the quotes from State Department officials:

Secretary of State James Baker told the New York Times in typical James Baker fashion (within days of the Iraqi occupation of Kuwait): ``We are talking about oil. Got it? Oil, vital American interests.``

A US State Department report from the then Clinton administration said:

``The Caspian region could become the most important new player in world oil markets over the next decade. The US has critical foreign policy issues at stake - the increase and diversification of world energy supplies, the independence and sovereignty of the NIS [Newly Independent States] - and isolation of Iran.``

Bill Richardson hinted at the determination of Washington to prevent the pipeline from running through either Iran or Russia, so as to limit the political influence of both in the region:

``This is about America`s energy security, which depends on diversifying our sources of oil and gas worldwide. It`s also about preventing strategic inroads by those who don`t share our values. We`re trying to move these newly independent countries toward the West. We would like to see them reliant on Western commercial and political interests rather than going another way. We`ve made a substantial political investment in the Caspian, and it`s very important to us that both the pipeline map and the politics come out right.``

George Monbiot wrote in the Guardian: ``In 1998 the chief executive of a major oil services company, remarked: ``I cannot think of a time when we have had a region emerge as suddenly to become as strategically significant as the Caspian.`` But the oil and gas there is worthless until it is moved. The only route which makes both political and economic sense is through Afghanistan.

That chief executive was Dick Cheney, who is now US vice-president.

In this light Afghanistan has become as indispensable to the regional control and transport of oil in central Asia as Egypt was in the Middle East. While I see the rationale behind Pakistan`s ``strategic depth`` concept, and why it supported the Taliban, it is also true that other players in Pakistan saw the main issue as the pipeline through Afghanistan, and that this is why the Taliban were supported. Unocal started negotiating to build oil and gas pipelines from Turkmenistan, through Afghanistan and into Pakistani ports. All they required was an administrative force in Afghanistan, which would guarantee the safety of the pipeline. Unocal invited some of the leaders of the Taliban to Houston, where they were given the VIP treatment. For the first year of Taliban rule, US policy towards the regime seems to have been determined by Unocal. Ahmad Rashid writes that in 1997 he was told by a US diplomat that ``the Taliban will probably develop like the Saudis did. There will be Aramco pipelines, an emir, no parliament and lots of Sharia law. We can live with that.``

Pipeline security is the issue, considering the volatility in the region. For the pipeline through Afghanistan to become a reality, Pakistan`s participation is critical and a stable Afghanistan and Pakistan are necessary. This is why the US will remain engaged here for the long term and why Pakistan is important for the economies of the region. It is possible that everyone will lose in the region and this is likely to occur if there is further instability in the region. And that is likely, unless two things happen: The resolution of Kashmir and the economic development of the region, which should go hand in hand with the extraction of its resources. It is no longer possible to treat the regions as pawns. This is why the present approach has make sure that it is to the benefit of all the players involved. Most parts of the region can ignite into war anytime.

THE PLAYERS:

The six independent states that emerged here out of the breakup of the Soviet Unionare: Azerbaijan, Armenia and Georgia (west side of the Caspian Sea), and Kazakstan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan (east side).

RUSSIA:

Russia has 30% of Caspian Sea shores (although only holds 2.5% of the total Caspian oil reserves) but is trying to have as many pipelines as possible to cross its territory to enforce its influence. All existing oil pipelines run through Russia and terminate at Novorossisk on the Black Sea where the oil is shipped to the world markets.

IRAN:

Iran is definitely the second most important player, after Russia, in this New Great Game in the Caspian Region. However, its enmity with the U.S. is significantly hurting its ability to use its geopolitical advantages to gain more power in the region.

IRAQ:

Iraq is going to be the next target on the war on terrorism. Aside from its obvious support for terrorists, exploiting the Caspian oil means a more direct military and political presence in Iraq is necessary for the US. Iraq`s geographic position says that whoever controls the north of Iraq would be in a position, for example, to protect a pipeline through southern Turkey, or launch military strikes against a pipeline through Iran. And Saddam Hussain remains an intolerable obstacle for the pipeline plans.

PAKISTAN - AFGHANISTAN:

Uzbekistan is significant for this because from here the proposed pipelines will run east toward China and south toward Pakistan and then to India. Turkmenistan has two pipelines to Turkey via Iran and to Pakistan via Afganistan, thus allowing no Russian control whatsoever.

The reason the focus of the US shifted from piping the oil through the eastern european states to Afghanistan can be understood in just two words: China and India. It is the growth of these two economies that is going to provide the impetus for the market for the oil. The countries around the Caspian sea may be sitting on the oilfields, but it is the US companies that own exploration and exploitation rights to them. They stand to make not millions or billions, but trillions in revenue.

And everone is manuevering for a piece of it.

Bapu, I really don`t know what are you talking about. Does not matter any way.

sherdil,

There is one question that nags me--& I`m hoping you would throw some light on it--as to whether I`m wrong &/or just prejudiced.

Here goes, for what its worth:

Isnt it assinine to dream that an oil pipeline could run through Afghanistan & bring prosperity to the whole area?

Afghanistan is the LAST place in the world any country or business would/could invest money in to build a pipeline. Not just today; but even 50 years down the road.

The problem is the mentality of the people in Afghanistan. It has (& always will be, IMO) the only ``wild West`` region of the world. Throughout history, people have tried to conquer it--only to abandon it in frustration. Its like trying to domesticate a wolf & make it a pet dog--will never happen--its not in their nature.

The events in the recent past has only strengthened my ``prejudice``. When you come down to the nitty-gritty, the word ``Afghan`` is a very loose term to describe the people of that region. There are a multitude of tribes who have fought each other for centuries. The only time they band together is if they have a common enemy to fight against. It is a land where warlords, ultimately, rule the roost. Their loyalities are very fickle & usually self centered.

Ofcourse, there is an unwritten, elaborate set of ``manners`` that come into play when dealing with them. You dont change a warlord`s allegiance by plopping a huge wad of banknotes at his feet---he`ll find that kind of behavior ``insolent`` & ``ill-mannered``. One has to go through an elaborate set of gyrations, using a lot of intermediaries, & ``proper language & manners`` & massage his ego; THEN graciously offer him money. And then MAYBE he will give you his allegiance; until someone else gives him a better deal. The conception of a ``legal contract`` just does`nt apply.

Even the MASTERS of diplomacy & intrigue (the British) tried to rule them; but failed. At the sametime, the British used those tactics very successfully to rule the Indians for several centuries.

How the HELL do you expect a multi-billion dollar pipeline to run through that country?! You CANNOT satisfy each & every warlord & tribe at the same time. Even if you get 99% of the tribes to make peace; that 1% of tribes will bomb the pipeline in the middle of the night. I DO NOT believe they look at the greater good of the whole country--they would rather cut their nose to spite their face.

Dunno about any of you; but I wont invest a cent in the ``Afghan pipeline fund``.

(Also being posted to ``The Price`` board - as this may soon go off the front page of Chowk)

Regardless of the governing parties that will come in Afghanistan, Pakistan needs to make sure that it now follows a policy that has the welfare and security of Afghans in mind, and maintains ties with the men who come into power - men such as Abdul Qadir, who, as Stuka mentioned, is now governor of Jalalabad.

Abdul Qadir was a previous commander in Nangahar and governor of Jalalabad. He is also the brother of Abdul Haq. This is a man that Pakistan is working with and will do very well with him. He too has the welfare of the Afghans at heart, as his brother did, and is well respected by the Afghanis. He has proved himself in the war with the Soviets. Both Abdul Haq and Abdul Qadir were commanders under Maulvi Yunis Khalis, who will be playing a major role in the new government of Afghanistan. Maulvi Yunis Khalis is no extremist, but some have called him a `moderate fundamentalist`. It looks like the Northern Alliance have made their claim to being part of the coming government - how much power they get is largely dependent on the tribal chiefs on the other side (other than Yunis Khalis, who is not a tribal chief, despite his influence).

If the oil pipeline goes through Pakistan (as the US wants) then the Alliance is going to make some conciliatory noises - under the surface, anyway. We must take them up on it. This means close relationships have to be kept up with all the leaders in Afghanistan and to that end Pakistan has made good progress with Iran (who is a strong backer of Ismail Khan) and the others already mentioned.

On the international front, one country we can build strong ties with is Britain, much more so than the US. Although the new relationship with the US is going to continue, we need to also look at Britain for some genuine opportunities that have recently come up in the textile manufacturing areas. The British have a much better rapport with us and they are far more committed to a longer term solution in this region. In return Pakistan may be just the right partner for them, in textiles, manufacturing, as well as pharmaceuticals. The relationship could take the form of the one presently between Chinese manufacturing and Japanese companies, which is a model that could bring Japan out of its recent recession.

I have always emphasized Pakistan`s approach should be its own economic well-being and stability, but we need to remain aware of other developments as well - like the Indian overtures to the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan which has a few Pakistanis worried - but perhaps overly so. The thought is that an Indian-backed Northern Alliance will create a hostile Afghanistan on our western border. In some respects, this is similar to pre -1971 years, when Pakistan was East and West Pakistan. At that time we also had two hostile fronts: West Pakistan and the large (East Pakistan) border with a hostile India, which presented a larger problem because of the distance between East and West Pakistan. At this present time, with a hostile Afghanistan and a hostile India sandwiching us, it seems to me that this is a easier situation than defending two borders 1000 miles apart. Speaking with a tribal mentality, fighting it out standing back to back has definite advantages. Others who are more experienced than I, may be able to point out flaws in my thinking - I would be interested in all views. One more important consideration is that there is a large ethnic Pushtun population that has no love for the Northern Alliance, and this population is poised right at the Northern Aliance`s heart.

Given all this, I think Pakistan needs to:

1. Remain alert, but pursue its programme of stability and economic revival with singlemindedness.

2. Bring educational minded individuals into positions where they can rebuild the educational institutes with an agenda that also eliminates the separations now present with our ``deeni madrassahs``, our government schools and the private institutions.

3. Keep engaged with the western media in all its aspects and present the image of the real Pakistan - which is ``dynamic, moderate and creative``, as the reporters from Hi-te Bild and De Telegraaf (from Holland) told me.

4. Keep engaged with India, with the purpose of resolving the Kashmir conflict.

saminashah #597

Wish you the best of peace, health and enjoyment during this season too :)

``Although many of us have ambivalent feelings about this holiday``

And hope to hear more about this ambivalence, esp after the recent events..

temporal #125 Is this the panjabistan that you are inviting all your chowk buddies to join? Sounds more like a hedonistic mass orgy club to me. Though far be it for me to knock hedonism, given the mess the world is in anyway.

nasah #595 ``and a very large contingent of ``others````

I believe these ``others`` as you call them are being referred to in the press as ``Pakistanis``. As a next step in your path to coming to terms with 1947, here is a little exercise: Stand before a mirror every day and say:

Day 1: ``Pa``. Repeat 5 times.

Day 2: ``Pak``. Repeat.

Day 3: ``Pakistan``. (This may hurt the tongue a bit, but you must be brave and learn to say it).

Day 4: ``Pakistanis``. Repeat 10 times.

By jove, he`s got it!!!! Congratulations.

Humzadji, what are you trying to prove by posting all those numbers? People whose opinion should matter to you already believe that Islam is a great religion and do not need to read all your posts. People who won`t believe that in spite of zillions of your such posting should not matter to you at all.. So why such redundance?

There are plenty of good books available on Hinduism, if you are serious, I would suggest you first read Swami Vivekananda`s complete work or Dr. Radhakrshnan. I heard people at BHU from other disciplines than Philosophy used to gather to listen to Dr. Radhakrishnan. Internet probably will not be a good medium to get into such heavy matters. Regards

Bapu/Bijli....

Please bring back your saner personalities, please, pleeeze. I thought you got better as you were talking some sense through Fatimah. What happened? And please do not assume any more new identity, every time I come to Chowk, I find some more new handles with same writing style. When one can easily detect an imposter, then where is the fun of faking? If you have substance you will come across like ``Bijli`` all the time no matter whether you are ``Bharadwaj`` or ``Lajwanti``. No mudslinging please.....it hurts.

scout,

{{As if their current and historical plight wasn`t torture enough. The Afghanis now can look forward to a new kind of slow, painful, torture offered by Indian movies.}}

True...but you are forgetting the ONE INCREDIBLE TRUTH ABOUT FREEDOM.

Freedom means an Afghani can now see an Indian movie if he/she wants to & NOT watch it if he/she DOES NOT want to. Today, no holier-than-thou mullah will whip their behind if they choose to watch an Indian movie...even if they get tortured slowly & painfully in the process. That decision will be left to the individual Afghani--NOT leaders who decide what is ``morally appropriate`` & what is not--& force it on the general population.

The Govt Of Pakistan may do well to heed that advice as well. Indian movies are banned in Pakistan...er for what reason...``cultural contamination?!!``. So what does a freedom loving Pakistani man or woman do? Rent Indian movies or watch them on cable! For some strange reason the GoP knows that its going on, but pretends not to notice. I wont be surprised if the all the Generals` wives & kids watch Indian movies--what with all those video stores on military bases.

Lets translate that principle to Chowk. Zahra, a normally intelligent lady, got livid about some comments that the 12 headed monster made. Then, in a fit of rage, she threatens to SUE Chowk! Gimme a break! What does she expect Chowk staff to do? become ``manners`` or ``moral`` police?!

Lets assume she files the case in an American court. Also, lets assume she gets a blunt, straight talking person like Judge Judy:) This is what she will say to Zahra:

``listen Zahra! did someone put a gun to your head & made you go to that website?! Do yourself a favour & dont ever go there! And while youre at it; kindly install a net nanny on your computer so your kids dont go there.

And above all STOP WASTING THIS COURT`S TIME! CASE CLOSED--NEXT CASE!``

Thats the BEST definition of FREEDOM I can think of.

www.progressive.org

http://salon.com/news/wire/2001/11/21/wtc_casualties/index.html

Missing, dead at WTC drops below 3,900

- - - - - - - - - - - -

By Richard Pyle

Nov. 21, 2001 | NEW YORK (AP) --

The city`s official estimate of the number of people killed in the Sept. 11 terrorist assault on the World Trade Center has dropped below 3,900 -- far lower than the most conservative projections just after the disaster.

And Mayor Rudolph Giuliani said Wednesday the tally would likely drop further, perhaps by hundreds, as police detectives continue to pore over the missing-person list to eliminate errors and duplications.

The tally stood Wednesday at 3,899, which includes people whose deaths have been confirmed and those still missing. The total includes people on the ground and on the two hijacked airliners that crashed into the twin towers.

The figure represents a sharp decline from the city`s peak estimate of 6,789 dead and missing, which came on Sept. 24.

The main reasons for the drop, city officials say, are the elimination of people reported missing but later found to be alive and multiple missing-person reports on the same individual, sometimes with different name spellings.

As death certificates are issued, Giuliani said Wednesday, ``you find out you`re resolving the situation for three different people.``

He said reports from foreign consulates, some of which overestimated the number of missing foreign nationals by hundreds, also inflated the city`s tally.

As the death toll is adjusted, the figure is entering a realm of comparison with two other events in U.S. history that killed massive numbers in a single day: the Civil War battle of Antietam in 1862 and the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941. According to historians and the National Park Service, the Antietam battle on Sept. 17, 1862, was the bloodiest single day on American soil, with some 3,650 soldiers killed. The Dec. 7, 1941, attack on Pearl Harbor, Hawaii -- then a U.S. territory -- took the lives of 2,388 people.

In New York, in the first days after the twin towers collapsed, unofficial death estimates ranged as high as 7,000 to 10,000. But it soon became evident that the hijacked jets had struck early enough in the day that the trade center was far from full. The towers had 40,000 employees and 150,000 daily visitors. Independent casualty counts by news organizations have been lower than the city`s official figures. An Associated Press tally of confirmed dead and reported dead or missing stood at 2,772 on Wednesday.

AP`s figure is based on data from the medical examiner, courts, funeral homes, places of worship, death notices, employers, public agencies, families and AP`s foreign bureaus.

Giuliani said Wednesday that the city has issued nearly 2,300 death certificates. Some were issued by the city medical examiner`s office after it reached a positive identification, but more than 1,800 were issued without a body. The city and state set up an expedited procedure to obtain a death certificate without a body so that families could quickly get life insurance and other benefits.

Stuka

``P.S. You like the Red Skins? Did you go to school in Washington? My boss is a major Red Skins fan.``

....went to school in va....my dad and bro are major skins fans....and i guess that`s how i got into it...even though i was pretty young then, i still remember the last time the skins won the superbowl...(91?)...we all trudged out in the cold to welcome them back....since then its been all downhill....:(

Re: 12-head retard

..is your little boyfriend from the madrassah not performing?...what`s the source of your sexual frustration?...gives you a teeny, weeny little tent in your pant to see any male-female interaction on Chowk...

Bijli #587 (Read this after you have read my post below) ``Punjab is not by even any means in the highest literacy state just ask the driver sikhs on g.t. roads dufus`` And dont go around spreading untruths about sikhs. Sikhs are my blood brothers, I am assured by Scholar Ali1.

Bijli #587 ``Trouble is you are soooo smart that you have no depth!!``

I`m smarter than you kiddo. That does not make me sooooo smart. That just makes me smarter than a log of wood. (I`ll go back and read the rest of your post now).

Bijli #590 ``i will give you 10$ go live in SECULAR india to show how nice you are ``

10$?? Is that all you have to offer?? You should be ashamed of yourself. Instead of calling yourself Bijli, Bapu and Bhardwaj you should be calling yourself, ``Cheap``, ``Miser``, and ``Scrooge``.

And I said I met fine people, I didnt say I was a nice guy. Even not-so-nice guys can run into fine people.

It is 3 AM in Mazare Sharif -- negotiations are going on between Talibans and Northern Alliance for the surrender of the Kunduz Talibani and the mercenaries forces -- Taliban commanders have agreed to surrendur -- American bombing against Kunduz Talibans has been halted.

Afghans will be allowed to defect and go free -- but not the mercenaries -- US is dead against letting the Arabs, the Chechens -- and a very big contingent of ``others`` go free -- neither to their countries of origin -- nor to the heaven -- ie no executions.

So tomorrow Kunduz -- day after -- Kandhar

WOMEN MARCH FOR RIGHTS;

DEMAND HEAVY FOR TV SETS

By

MORTROSENBLUM

TheAssoclated Press

KABUL, Afghanistan — Scores of women shed their burqas and marched through the streets of Kabul to demand new rights Tuesday. Then, dutiful Afghan wives, they covered up again and hurried home.

“Change will take a little time,” said Soriya Parlika, the protest organizer who headed Afghanistan’s Red Crescent Society before the Tailban forced women to leave their jobs, “but this a start.”

The sudden collapse of harsh Taliban rule has lightened the mood for men and women in this tradition-bound capital of ancient ways.

In some places, such as the little cluster of electronics shops downtown, shopkeepers are ebullient.

Mirza Mohammed has sold 100 of the TV sets he kept hidden for years, and more are on the way from Paid-stan. A shop next door features digital videodiscs of Indian films in boxes adorned by busty beauties with bare shoulders.

“We have freedom now,” he said, over the heads of customers crowding around him. “No one will miss the Taliban.”

A few doors down, a 17-year-old shop owner who calls himself only Abrash does a brisk business in homemade satellite dishes cut from tin cans. Fancier factory models can capture U.S. and European channels. His father smuggles TV sets, which sell faster than he can supply them.

Asked if he was getting rich, Ahrash laughed. “I’m already rich,” he said. “Now I’m also free.”

His friend, Mohammed Daoud, added, “If I catch any Taliban, I will kill them, whatever penalty I’d have to pay.” Religious police smashed and burned his stock of banned televisions last year and jailed him for weeks.

In another part of downtown, bright yellow and green letters announce a new beauty parlor. It is decorated inside with photos of women in glamorous hairstyles and elaborate makeup.

The bakery next door sells 80 percent more of the sticky sweets and cookies Afghans buy for entertaining than it did before the Taliban left. “People go out now to visit Mends,” said Abdul Wahed, 25, at the counter. “They have their lives back.”

Chowkies,

Although many of us have ambivalent feelings about this holiday, my best to my friends at Chowk. I hope that it is, as well as Diwali and Ramadan, a time of peace, health and introspection.

12 head:

Its becoming very clear that you are probably a village idiot. How come you dont have a normally functioning brain in any one of those 12 heads? Madrassah education--I bet.

Very interesting case though. Normally the personalities in Multiple Personality Disorder are quite varied. Youre the only case I know where each one of the personalities is a dope!

re scout

``Are Afghani women running around in silk saris and miniskirts...``

Good things take time!

How Allah spreads the faith even through those who do not intend to do so.

..................(Masjid Picture Here)

.........The central Islamic mosque in Seoul.

( GIF )

The first Koreans in modern times to be introduced to Islam lived in Manchuria, where they had moved between 1895 and 1928 under Japanese colonial policy. After World War II, many Koreans returned to the peninsula from Manchuria and among them were converts to Islam. They were not organized, however, and had no place of worship until the Korean War when Turkish troops came to Korea as part of the 16 nation United Nations Command and brought with them an Imam as chaplain. Korean Muslims were granted permission to worship with the Turkish troops and the Islamic faith grew.

Major recent water-shed events which brought Islam to those who had never heard about it.

1)Korean War...returning soldiers,middle east jobs

2)VietNam war...dissillusioned soldiers,Ali,X

3)Iranian Revolution--TV coverage,search for truth

4)Rushdie affair-----Media frenzy

5)Gulf War---returning soldiers.

6)Afghanistan......

FACT:Over 85% of muslims are Non-Arab.Over 55% are Chinese ethnic group.

Now there goes the stereo-type in the english-educated mind.

anNY------582

Come to think of it!Explaining this to Indians who wrote the book on ``Mayaa kaa JaaL``(The trappings of materialism``).

How incrementally ignorant,of their own rich heritage,the ``educated`` ones are becoming,is simply horrendous.

Is it because now it has become ``Sarmaayaa kaa Jaal``(The mesh-net of Capitalism``)?---and therefore has some merit?...Loot & Plunder under the guise of economic `philosophy` & political legitimacy?

Stuka #555, ``Mr Karia elaborated, Pakistan and Afghanistan have massive audiences for Hindi moives but Hindi films are banned in the theaters of Pakistan. `` Afghanistan is a huge market for Bollywood films since they relate to the films as it has a familiar cultural background``.``

Familiar cultural background? Are Afghani women running around in silk saris and miniskirts singing stupid songs around equally stupid men?

As if their current and historical plight wasn`t torture enough. The Afghanis now can look forward to a new kind of slow, painful, torture offered by Indian movies.

Dear AAmir:



A 1000 mile journey begins with the FIRST step.

Something routine for the world -- an extraordinary moment for the Women of Afghanistan.

The scourge of Talibani Jahilans stands destroyed for the Women of Afghanistan -- thanks to Mr. Bush -- Northern Alliance -- and Pushtuns like Mr. Abdul Qadeer of Jalalabad.

cheers

semipreciousme:

BC is nice, though it depends on the major, and if you`re applying for undergrad or grad school. It`s in a really nice part of the city though. Chestnut Hill is close to downtown, but it also retains a campus like charm.

P.S. You like the Red Skins? Did you go to school in Washington? My boss is a major Red Skins fan.

AAmir #579

``Look at harlem & down town Detroit ,America has 100% literacy so they say .Why is there poverty & ghetoes among spanish, Latinos,Blacks & non whites mostly others.``

America does not have a 100% literacy rate in any meaningful sense, a fact that is frequently pointed out by US educators. And investment in education and income levels are highly correlated, according to many studies.

``Kerala & other states in India which have higher % of literacy are not the most economically strong states either.`` I think I saw a map of India some time back where Kerala and some other South Indian states, as well as Panjab in the north, were shown as much higher income levels than other parts of India.

``Without chance to improve the quality of life ,Education only leads to dashed hopes.``

Agreed. This conclusion of course does not follow from your premises, as quoted above. But since your premises are wrong that doesnt matter.

Please think harder when you write on chowk.

Semipreciousme:

``….um…..come again?…``

Semi, hamzad is referring to a saying of Maula Ali`s that my ma is forever telling me to pay heed to..not loving the world here is not refering to not liking your fellow men or hibernating in a little dabba away from the evil world...from what i make of it, it refers to not letting the world and its luxuries n all that intoxicate you to the point that that is all you see....forgetting God and the Hereafter, the central beliefs of muslims as a result of excessive love for what the world has to offer is the `folly` here

..the problem with people like Fatimah is that they believe the representatives of Indian Muslims should be the uneducated and hateful Mullahs...they discount what MJ Akbar, Shabana Azmi or any other educated and intelligent Indian Muslim has to say...these are the people who should be leaders of the Indian Muslim community and perhaps even India at large...

````HIndus stil cant live with muslims..``(Fatimah)

Fatimah -- such a beautiful name -- with suh a poison pen -- like a Poison Ivy?

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re: semipreciousme

``...don`t forget the men in tights part:)...but gotta admit, i love football....still try to follow it...hail to the redskins....``

the men in tight pants is the irony...that sport is only marginally more civilized than rugby...what next?...men in animal skin chasing each other with clubs for pieces of dinner meat?

This is interesting, a Bangladeshi border incident in Jammu. I am guessing we will next have a Chinese border incident in Kutch or somewhere. Pakistani defence is bravely shouldering so many onerous responsibilities all over the region, poor guys.

http://www.expressindia.com/kashmir/kashmirlive/kl20011121a.html

``...While Pakistani defence officials in Islamabad accused India of having killed 12 ``innocent`` and ``unharmed`` Bangladeshis in unprovoked firing, senior BSF officials said they suspected that the sneaking in Bangladeshi nationals were also trying to mark the security installations on this side of the border...``

JALALABAD, Afghanistan — The laughter of little girls will break a silence of five years when schools open today, beginning a five-day registration period for both boys and girls less than a week after Taliban officials were driven from this tribal area.

``We don`t have books, chairs or desks, but even with a pen and some paper, children will be sitting on the ground ready to study,`` said Abdul Ghani Hidayat, 50, the new education minister for Jalalabad and its surrounding province.

With the Taliban driven from the province by its traditional Pashtun tribal leaders, local people are planning to resume the life they knew before the hard-line Muslim regime took over. The first steps toward normality, still tentative, are being taken by the most vulnerable people in Afghan society.

Officials today begin a vigorous five-day school registration drive to coax male and female students back into a conventional school system dismantled by the Taliban. The call to return to school will be heard from radio, loudspeaker trucks and even in mosques.

Education for boys was permitted but neglected under the Taliban. There was only one class: religion. Conventional teaching of many subjects gave way to rote memorizing of the Koran and the instruction of Muslim clerics.

As with most aspects of life under the Taliban, the suffering of women was even more acute. Few young girls in this area have even seen the inside of a classroom. The Taliban prohibited the education of women, banned sports, music and even jumping rope.

``The Taliban just didn`t care about schools,`` said Mr. Hidayat, who returned from exile on Thursday, one day after local tribal leaders pushed the Taliban from the city.

Mr. Hidayat looks the part of a stern schoolmaster. But speaking about the children, his voice softens and his eyes light up.

``Children are like roses. When you take care of them, they blossom. When you don`t, they just dry up and scatter in the wind,`` he said.

Officials like Mr. Hidayat, who served in the government before the Taliban took over in 1996, hope for a turnout of 80 percent of eligible boys and girls during this week`s registration.

Ultimately, they would like to see the renewal of a system that had 62,000 girls enrolled when the Taliban shut down the schools.

For all the current problems — armed outlaws running loose, private armies roaming through the city and a treasury looted by the departing Taliban — the province`s new rulers have made education a high priority.

The new governor, Abdul Qadeer, stopped yesterday at the Education Ministry, where he announced the school registration and the reopening of schools for girls.

``As of tomorrow, we will see how many girls come to school,`` said Mr. Qadeer, who was governor before the Taliban took power. ``Islam says that education is for both men and women.``



In a dusty lot outside, 9-year-old Sahar, a future student, was playing with other girls from the neighborhood. ``We want to become doctors and engineers in the future. That`s why we want to go to school,`` she said.

Mr. Hidayat said that even if teachers return, restoring the school system means overcoming other obstacles.

``We have some textbooks, but we will have to print others,`` he said.

Schools for girls, abandoned for five years, will have to be rebuilt, but Mr. Hidayat is wasting no time in planning the new curriculum. ``We will have sports coaches at school. Girls will be able to play handball, basketball and tennis.``



For some, the new government`s enthusiasm for education means little until people feel safe, both from lawless bandits or from the Taliban itself.

``I need to feel safe, and I need to be sure that the Taliban will not return before I go back to the classroom,`` said one female teacher who asked not to be named.



For some parents, the reopening of girls schools was like waking up after a bad nightmare.

``According to Islam, our religion, gaining knowledge is the duty of every Muslim, men and women,`` said 32-year-old Attaullah, who goes by one name, the father of a 12-year-old girl.



``Why shouldn`t girls go to school?`` asked Wafiullah Miankhel, principal of Nangarhar High School. ``Our country has been destroyed and we need to rebuild.``(WT)

Fatimah #554 ``HIndus stil cant live with muslims ,just visit hinu net & sulekha .`` Or chowk with specimen like jay.

Also, please dont generalize. I have had the privilege of knowing many fine people who happen to be hindus (as I have had the privilege or knowing many fine people who happen to be muslims or christians or jews or sikhs). Dont allow a few hate-filled vermin to lower you to their level. They may make loud noises on the internet, just as the mullahs in Pakistan make loud noises on the streets, but they do not represent the majority of the people from the community they think they represent. They represent only themselves and their low-class upbringing.

EST Reply #: 560

sadna

tvarad #538

I liked this `retort` to Thomas Friedman`s article in the Deccan Herald :

http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/nov21/isharma.htm

``...He informed them that more Muslims live in India than in Pakistan or Bangladesh.

http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/nov21/sharma.htm



hindus of india ,

``...But the fact is, the Indian Constitution is secular and provides a real opportunity for the economic advancement of any community that can offer talent. That`s why a growing Muslim middle class here is moving up and, generally, doesn`t manifest the strands of deep anger you find in many non-democratic Muslim states.``

In the million times posted article by the Israeli Freidman (also American i know so are all isrealis)quoted MJ Akbar

You can say that again ,pseudo muslims hinduized bollywood version of haji ali singing non namazi muslims of erstwhile muslim forefathers.

Why is Simin locked in jail & Banned! IF THERE IS NO ANGER IN INDIAN MUSLIMS.THE SLAVES NEVER HAD ANGER ,DOES THAT MEAN ALL MUSLIMS SHOULD BE SLAVES

Hypocrites !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kafir K Khan

#549

Whoah! That was a very provocative, though very boldly written post. It may inflame some passions from both sides of the fence. I`m also betting that if ylh is his usual bakra self, he may take this bait & start his verbal masterbation.

My personal feeling is that this whole Partition business should be laid to rest--once & for all. What has happened has happened. Nobody can go back in time & change it. The generation that went through the Partition has either died or quickly getting senile.

The generation that is in power right now is either too young to remember, first hand, what actually happened or was born after the Partition. Our mutual grudges are the product of what has been passed on to us by our parents or history books. Historians are human beings; & its impossible for humans to be completely neutral or balanced in their opinions. Even if they were, passions run so deep that there will be no meeting of the mind between India & Pakistan.

There are certain things that Indians & Pakistanis will NEVER agree on. Case in point is Kashmir. Pakistanis believe that it is Partition`s unfinished business. Indians believe Partition is over & they dont want to go down that road again. Right, wrong or indifferent, both sides will stubbornly stick to their guns. Even ex-Indians like me who believe that the GoI`s behaviour was & is very wrong in Kashmir; believe that GoP`s behaviour is part of the problem, not part of the solution. Feelings about this issue run so deep that even a 3rd party intervention will not solve anything. Alas, when there is NO meeting of the mind--might IS right.

The rest of the world; even other Islamic countries, dont want to touch this issue with a ten foot pole. Forget about the only power that REALLY matters in today`s world--the US. In more ways than one, the US has politely indicated that it would rather not be involved. They stuck their neck out with the Palestinian peace process, only to alienate both sides in that quagmire. At the very most, Pakistan gets polite murmurs of sympathy from that toothless organisation called OIC. Then they turn around & give India a nod & a wink. Without a superpower twisting India`s arm, the Kashmiris have no hope for independance.

This is something my friend, Romair, ought to consider. Being part Kashmiri, I feel he is too personally involved in this Kashmir business to be objective. Also, he spins his arguments so ``convincingly``, that he`s actually believing some of the ``crap`` he`s saying:)--no offense, Umairr.

(( A personal mention to Umairr, who`s views I respect, but dont agree with.

Stand on any moral pedestal you want, Umairr, Indians believe only God will judge this--not Pakistan--or any other country in the world. Bottom line--India is not going to budge. You can delude yourself into believing Pakistan is going to get stronger & will get ``more bargaining strenght`` in the future. The fact is that India has never budged on this issue even when Pakistan was America`s ``most allied ally`` or during Nixon`s ``tilt`` towards Pakistan. The ``Masada complex`` that Feroz talked about applies even to India--where Kashmir is concerned. This is NOT India`s Vietnam--believing that is deluding yourself.

Part of the problem is that you think only like a military ``expert``. Your military`s foreign policy strategies have invariably failed miserably. Be it Operation Gibralter, E.Pakistan, Kargil or post Soviet Afghanistan. Its because they feel wars are primarily won or lost on the battlefield. A military, I feel, is incapable of thinking ``outside the box``.))

India & Pakistan are two separate & distinct countries. The only issue that the majority of Indians & Pakistanis agree on is that they definitely DO NOT WANT reunification. Too much has happened this 50+ years. It would be like joining an apple to an orange.

As much as I have a new found respect for Mushy, as long as he sticks to the only ``core`` issue--India/Pakistan relationship isnt going to budge.

RE Fartimah 554

``HIndus stil cant live with muslims ,just visit hinu net & sulekha .``

Oh smelly Fart, your prescription is just the same as someone directing a muslim to some extremest islamist site such as themodernreligion [and there are so many stinky sites like that].

hamzad afaqui

{The Sayings of Hadrat Ali:

Of all the follies, the greatest is to love the world.}

….um…..come again?…

RSaxena

{Re: Stuka

``I go to Bentley College, but support BC for football. Live pretty close to it and have some friends there. You know people in BC?``

you watch that barbarism where men jump on each and ram into each other...then they run up and down a field with an oblong thingie clutched under their arms, much like a happy dog with a bone....where one fellow was called ``refrigerator perry``...you delhiwallahs are really kookoo...}

...don`t forget the men in tights part:)...but gotta admit, i love football....still try to follow it...hail to the redskins....

Stuka

``semipreciousme:

I go to Bentley College, but support BC for football. Live pretty close to it and have some friends there. You know people in BC?``

....yeah, a couple of seniors from school went there...one of my friends was applying there and i was just checking out the prospectus...seems like a really nice place...

Reply Binifer, RSaxena #: 553

``(you watch that barbarism where men jump on each and ram into each other...then they run up and down a field with an oblong *thingie * clutched under their arms, much like a happy dog with a bone....)``

Put that way it sounds like a leather dance party more than a competitive sport...

Typical moraL CORRUPSCON IN HINDIA. and degenracy.









Eunuch to contest UP elections

Sharat Pradhan in Lucknow

A year after a eunuch was elected mayor of Uttar Pradesh, another member of the ``third gender`` has decided to run for office.

Payal, a 26-year-old eunuch who stands six feet tall, will be in the running in a constituency in state capital Lucknow when UP elects a new assembly in early 2002.

She has pitted her fortunes against the state`s Minister for Housing and Urban Development, Lalji Tandon, who is responsible for nursing Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee`s parliamentary constituency Lucknow.

Payal will be the official candidate of a new outfit called the Nationalist Communist Party, floated by a little known social worker with political ambitions. The Election Commission is yet to grant the party formal recognition.

Nevertheless, Payal has got down to mustering support by shooting off letters to her peers like Gorakhpur mayor Asha Devi and Shabnam Mausi, India`s first eunuch legislator in Madhya Pradesh.

``I am confident that they will come down to Lucknow to extend their full support to my campaign,`` said Payal.

``I have taken the decision (to contest elections) only after consulting members of my clan, who number at least 2,500-odd in and around Lucknow,`` said Payal, who has studied up to middle school.

Asked what she was hoping to achieve through politics, she said: ``My sole objective is to combat corruption at all levels in the government, for which today`s politicians alone are responsible.``

Virtually echoing the campaign spiel of Asha Devi and Shabnam Mausi, Payal said: ``Unlike these politicians, whose sole objective is to fill their coffers, we eunuchs do not have families or children for whom we would crave to collect money.

``Therefore, surely, we are in a better position to serve the masses selflessly,`` she argued.

But why did she decide to take on a senior politician like Lalji Tandon?

``Well, my war is against corruption and I see that man as the epitome of the vice,`` she charged. ``And then he is the key representative of the prime minister in Lucknow.``

The young eunuch has equal contempt for other leading political lights of Uttar Pradesh, be it Samajwadi Party chief Mulayam Singh Yadav, Bahujan Samaj Party leader Mayawati or top members of the Congress.

``They are all one and the same. It is time for eunuchs to rise and teach all of them a lesson,`` asserted Payal.

Re: ylh

``Spoken like an American.. let us ignore the world.. but then the reality hits home... US, Pakistan, India, everyone has a responsibility. You and I have a responsibility as the citizens of this world, and I dont want to spell that out.``

...i am an American, so why should I should be afraid of sounding like one...anyway, we all have responsibilities as citizens of the world, but that responsibility includes the safety of the land we live in and that of its people...right now, that land happens to be america, both in your case and in mine....the more we interfere in other people`s affairs, the more enemies we create...the children of the taliban are the osamas of tomorrow...this time we had little choice but to go bomb them...but if not necessary, do we really want to be creating the next osamas?...

...the swedes and finns have just as high a standard of living as americans, but because they know where not to stick their heads they live in relative safety and peace...while you and i live in fear of the next terrorist attack, despite being in the most powerful nation on earth...

PS: Americans can be such idiots :(

tvarad #538
I liked this `retort` to Thomas Friedman`s article in the Deccan Herald :
http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/nov21/isharma.htm

``...He informed them that more Muslims live in India than in Pakistan or Bangladesh.

Had this fact been known to President George Bush just the previous evening, he would not have failed to invite the Indian envoy to the first-ever Iftar party held in the White House... ``

Ofcourse maybe it was a good thing finally because elsewhere in the Deccan Herald the same writer says:
http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/nov21/sharma.htm

``The halal food menu was not made available and the mediapersons from Muslim countries invited to do their job, had to return hungry from the White House.``

tvarad #538 The article makes good points. In case of Pakistan, democracy would not only be good for Pakistanis, but for the rest of the world as well. We have an excellent beginning with the Local Governments replacing bureaucrats. Next step is to make these governments a success by establishing benchmarks for good governance and rewarding the winner with special grants and recognition.

Ladies and gentlemen of chowk,

Allow me to say that despite our disagreements and everything else... I really admire you all!

May this would be news to many here.

The Nexus of the Three....

Jawahar Lal was Delhi`s erstwhile Kotwal Gangadhar`s grandson; and the son of Moti Lal, a resident of the Mirganj district of Allahabad. Jawahar was also a descendant of Raj Kaul, the recipient of the famous land in Delhi where still exists the famous `Nehr` or nullah that bestowed the `Nehru` name to the clan. The award of the land was made by Farrukhsiyar, a grandson of Aurangzeb as a token of gratitude of the Moghuls to Raj Kaul for having betrayed Guru Gobind Singh, which betrayal finally caused the Guru`s loss of life in the hands of two Pathan assassins at Nanded.

``Sanoon Nehr vaalay puul tey bulaakey

``-------````--

tey khorray mahee?

.....................`kinnooooooon dey gayaa``

Some questions were raised on this thred about the Afghan-Kashmir link. Here goes:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1617000/1617541.stm

``Harkat-ul-Mujahideen, for one, normally operates in Kashmir, and links between Afghanistan and armed groups in Kashmir date back to the early 1980s, before the Taleban emerged.

Prominent Kashmiri militants such as Mohammad Abdullah Bangroo, alias Khalid-ul-Islam, fought alongside the Afghan mujahideen against the Soviet occupation.

Likewise, an Afghan militant in the Hizbul Mujahideen group, Akber Bhai, became a household name in north Kashmir in 1992.

Afghan militants who fight in Kashmir are only one foreign contingent among many but for those involved - be they from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey or Chechnya - Kashmir and the Afghan cause are strongly linked as common Islamic causes.

If casualty figures are any indication, foreigners comprise about 30% of the militants operating in Kashmir, most of them Pakistanis or from Pakistan-ruled Kashmir. They are followed by the Afghans.

It has to be said that before the 11 September attacks on America, there was no clear indication of links between Kashmiri militants and the Taleban or Osama Bin Laden`s al-Qaeda militant group.

But since the US strikes in Afghanistan, Bin Laden has become a hero to ordinary Muslims in Kashmir. There he is seen as a symbol of Islamic resistance to a United States which is involved in conflicts between Muslims and non-Muslims such as the Middle East.``

KK Khan 545,

Here we go again, partition was wrong, what it could have been, would have been crap. Pakistan is there for you all to do something with. Find out what can be done, identify some elements of progress.

Here is a list for you, if you are half serious.

1) Create a hero, a symbol of modernity and progress. Abdus Salam. If you are bold enough, write an article, send it to chowk, i know they wont publish it, at least post that in bits on chowk interacts.

If you can do that you have challenged the essence of pakistan today, blasphemy laws that target non- muslims and ahmedia, you have introduced an alien value that kafirs can be heros, you have established that non-koranic education can be of value and can create heros.

The above values will make the young of pakistan like YLH and anNy shake in their limbs. These are the misguided lots, the true children of TNT, who believe that writing about a long dead sher sha suri and food habits are great contributions. Follow the TNt trail, sher sha suri, irrelevance, name calling of jay.

Interesting News:

Yeh Dil Aashikana, first Hindi film in Afghanistan



ARCHANA SHARMA

TIMES NEWS NETWORK



UMBAI: The opening of cinema theatres in Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban regime could bring good business for Bollywood. In fact, Aruna Irani`s, Yeh Dil Aashikana is set to be the first Hindi film to be released in Afghanistan after a six-year ban.

When the Taliban took over Afghanistan, it was the third largest overseas market for Bollywood films, after the United Kingdom and United States.

Aruna Irani has struck a chord with the Afghans ever since Caravan, the `70s film starring her and Jeetendra, was a smash hit in that country. She played a gypsy in that film. In Yeh Dil Ashikana, she plays the hero`s mother.

Director of the film, Kuku Kohli, said negotiations with distributors were through but a few formalities were yet to be completed. He said that he would not like to reveal the names of the distributors of the Afghan territory until a clear picture of government formation emerges.

``We want to donate the film and not sell it. The profits of the film would go for the benefit of Afghani children affected by the war,`` said Mr Kohli.

Film trade analyst Komal Nahta sees the opening of the market in Afghanistan as a Diwali gift. ``Bollywood movies are popular in most Asian countries and Afghanistan is no exception. It may turn out to be a huge market``.

Mr Nahta said it was too early to say how much money would be inolved, but ``it will definitely bring happy tidings to the producers.``

Mr Kohli expects his film to be widely viewed by the Afghan people as it has a scene in which the plane carrying the heroine is hijacked. The film stars newcomers Karan Nath and Jividha.

`` The plane is hijacked for the release of a terrorist who even resembles Osama bin Laden. In the film it is shown that the Afghan people have supported the Indian cause,`` explained Mr Kohli.

Though Mr Kohli admits that the storyline is inspired by the hijacking of IC-814 in 1999 to Kandahar, he said that it was fiction. It is believed that the running of films will improve the state of the theatres which are in a dilapidated condition.

Public Relations Officer, Raju Karia said that as people start going to theatres, its quality would improve and the distributors will make some money, this would augur good trade with Bollywood. ``At present, Ramzan month is on, as soon as it is over, people would celebrate Id by watching Hindi movies.``

Mr Karia elaborated, Pakistan and Afghanistan have massive audiences for Hindi moives but Hindi films are banned in the theaters of Pakistan. `` Afghanistan is a huge market for Bollywood films since they relate to the films as it has a familiar cultural background``.

The film will be released as part of its world premiere. The music is scored by Nadeem-Shravan.

Saxena

(you watch that barbarism where men jump on each and ram into each other...then they run up and down a field with an oblong *thingie * clutched under their arms, much like a happy dog with a bone....)

and your preference is ballet?

`frankly, i`d just leave Afghans to settle their issues and figure out what they want...had they not coddled `

Spoken like an American.. let us ignore the world.. but then the reality hits home... US, Pakistan, India, everyone has a responsibility. You and I have a responsibility as the citizens of this world, and I dont want to spell that out.

I believe in self interest and `live and let live` policies, but eventually the treatment of women in Afghanistan is going to hit home.. as it has to us.. for Pakistan was apathetic to the conditions of the women in Afghanistan, after helping the monsters there... and now where has that taken us?

I can speak for myself... I have done whatever little I could have for the brave afghan women.. even before 9/11 and I will continue to do so in the future... I have nothing but rabid hatred for Afghan men and the vices they brought to Pakistan.. but I think women really know what they are talking about.

-YLH

tvarad

`You are right. The bundle of contradictions that is Pakistan doesn`t need anyone to bring it down. It`s own leadership is doing such a good job of it.`

Keep dreamin` son!

Re: ally

``Pakistani army has very large gonads, complete with the ducts. Thats why they have conquered Pakistan 4 times over.``

that`s about all they are good for...ghar ki billi...why don`t they come and take Kashmir from India?...why did 90,000 of them surrender to the Indian Army in 1971?

your other analogies fall apart because no one other than Pakistan has taken issue with India over Kashmir...there is no international body of support for Pakistan`s stance...every SOB who even mutters something negative about India`s stance over Kashmir wastes no time backtracking...including Powell who had to mince words in Delhi to not offend them...

and you forget that nukes didn`t exist in the past...anyone could attack anyone...not anymore....no one is going to make a nuclear armed India do anything it doesn`t want...and there are a billion Indians who will not give up Kashmir...

http://www.ndh.net/home/bleimann/overview.htm
Chronicle of Events in Afghanistan
Chronological Overview
1990 - 1996

(its a day-by-day month-by-month description )

http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry112001.shtml

Re Gulbuddin Hekmatyar and the Pakistani Army`s principled policies:

``.. He was Pakistan`s favorite mujahedeen leader during the war against the Soviets, because he was a Pashtun and an Islamic extremist - sort of a Taliban before the Taliban existed. Hekmatyar`s faction in the 1970s became famous for throwing acid on women who dressed in Western clothes. The Pakistanis made a point of funneling U.S. aid to him even though - or, more like it, because - he was virulently anti-American.

When the Communist government fell in 1992, Hekmatyar decided that he would wage a campaign to oust the other mujahedeen factions from Kabul. This he proceed to attempt with artillery barrages that reduced Kabul to rubble and killed thousands of civilians.

And the Pakistanis backed him throughout, even when the civil war harmed their economic interests by making trade routes in Afghanistan impassable.

Ahmed Rashid explains in his book, Taliban:
Pakistan`s policymakers were thus faced with a strategic dilemma. Either Pakistan could carry on backing Hekmatyar in a bid to bring a Pashtun group to power in Kabul which would be Pakistan-friendly, or it could change direction and urge for a power-sharing agreement between all the Afghan factions at whatever the price for the Pashtuns, so that a stable government could open roads to Central Asia. The Pakistani military was convinced that other ethnic groups would not do their bidding and continued to back Hekmatyar...``


``...The Pakistanis eventually dropped Hekmatyar, not because he was killing people, but because he was killing them ineffectually. He was losing the war. The Pakistanis picked up the Taliban instead, who could kill AND degrade women and actually take over the Afghan government.

Now, we get news that Hekmatyar is petitioning Pakistan to let him into Peshawar as a way station to reentering Afghanistan.

Talk of a country ``exorcising its demons`` is usually metaphorical, but Hekmatyar is an actual, living demon. The U.S. should demand that Pakistan keep him out of Peshawar, and do all it can to keep him out of Afghanistan, since he is the one who did so much to wreck Kabul the first time around....``

nasah #533 Why does Chowk have the ``Enter`` page t begin with - why not get down to business with the article listings right away? (As a chowk junkie, I have put the second page in the Favorites list, to avoid having to go through the Enter).

PS: Any bets on when they get Osama (or if they get him)? And whether they will get him dead or alive? Personally, I give it a 70% chance they`ll get him in the next two weeks. And probably as a dead man.

RE: Reply #: 535 ylh

``Wait and see.... these are Afghans. As for me being cornered... India and Northern Alliance even if together cant do sh-t to Pakistan, not that Northern Alliance will join up with India that is.``

You are right. The bundle of contradictions that is Pakistan doesn`t need anyone to bring it down. It`s own leadership is doing such a good job of it.

Reply # 511 RSaxena

[If Pakistani army had gonads, it would come and take Kashmir]

Pakistani army has very large gonads, complete with the ducts. Thats why they have conquered Pakistan 4 times over.

I was talking about the Kashmiris who scare the chickenshit out of the khatri chicken in Indian army.

[Kashmir is still in India...has been for 50 years...and will continue to be.]

Bangladesh was part of Pakistan, Pakistan was part of India, East Timor was part of Indonesia, US was part of Britain...... sexana, when people want freedom, they get it. Just because Mountbatten gave you a piece of land and people to lord over does not mean that they will accept the overlordship for all times.

Stuka..

Rutgers` Football team su-cks... and su-cks bad. I used to go to all their games, but now I abstain from doing so. Though Rutgers has a great stadium and the games are more of a major party than anything else.. I go there to reminisce my Gaddafi Stadium days.

-YLH

Layman

Brilliant:

`In fact, it may benefit Pakistan because the NA, being non-Pashtuns, have no affinity for Pathans on the other side of the border, and may actually respect the Durand line - can someone more knowledgeable comment on this?`

I have been harping this tune for the last 5 years. It was extremely stupid of Pakistan to support the taliban for strategic reasons. Clearly Pakistan`s strategic objectives could have been better achieved if we had helped the Tajiks, Uzbeks and the Hazaras.

There can be two calculations drawn from it

1) Pakistan`s ISI is unconcerned about Pakistan`s well being.

2) Russians got to the N.Alliance first after the war was over, forcing Pakistan and the US to take evasive action.

Clearly Pakistan`s real fault lies in allying itself with the US in the Cold war.

-YLH

Re: binifer

i`m flattered...of the hundreds of posts on this and other boards, you and your owner (that prude) read and respond to only my posts...

re: ylh

you talk big about India and NA not being able to ``do $hit`` to Pakistan...forget 1971? ... i`d say helping slice your country in half would qualify as ``doing $hit`` to Pakistan ... and exploding nukes in 1998, knowing that you would follow and get reamed by sanctions which would collapse your economy also qualifies ... no?

``Still the point remains ... Northern Alliance are ideologically a mirror image of the Taliban... let us not accept them in Kabul.. Not for Pakistan`s sake, but for the sake of women of Afghanistan.``

frankly, i`d just leave Afghans to settle their issues and figure out what they want...had they not coddled uncle osama, the world would have let them be...

For all the India bashers out there, here`s some food for thought. This is what I have always maintained - the reason for insurrection in Islamic countries is not due to perceived injustices in places like Palestine, Yugoslavia or Kashmir, rather it is due to unrepresentative governments in almost all states where Muslim are a majority.

New York Times, November 20, 2001

FOREIGN AFFAIRS

Today`s News Quiz

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN



NEW DELHI -- So, class, time for a news quiz: Name the second-largest Muslim community in the world. Iran? Wrong. Pakistan? Wrong. Saudi Arabia? Wrong. Time`s up — you lose.

Answer: India. That`s right: India, with nearly 150 million Muslims, is believed to have more Muslim citizens than Pakistan or Bangladesh, and is second only to Indonesia. Which brings up another question that I`ve been asking here in New Delhi: Why is it you don`t hear about Indian Muslims — who are a minority in this vast Hindu-dominated land — blaming America for all their problems or wanting to fly suicide planes into the Indian Parliament?

Answer: Multi-ethnic, pluralistic, free-market democracy. To be sure, Indian Muslims have their frustrations, and have squared off over the years in violent clashes with Hindus, as has every other minority in India. But they live in a noisy, messy democracy, where opportunities and a political voice are open to them, and that makes a huge difference.

``I`ll give you a quiz question: Which is the only large Muslim community to enjoy sustained democracy for the last 50 years? The Muslims of India,`` remarked M. J. Akbar, the Muslim editor of Asian Age, a national Indian English-language daily funded by non-Muslim Indians. ``I am not going to exaggerate Muslim good fortune in India. There are tensions, economic discrimination and provocations, like the destruction of the mosque at Ayodhya. But the fact is, the Indian Constitution is secular and provides a real opportunity for the economic advancement of any community that can offer talent. That`s why a growing Muslim middle class here is moving up and, generally, doesn`t manifest the strands of deep anger you find in many non-democratic Muslim states.``

In other words, for all the talk about Islam and Islamic rage, the real issue is: Islam in what context? Where Islam is imbedded in authoritarian societies it tends to become the vehicle of angry protest, because religion and the mosque are the only places people can organize against autocratic leaders. And when those leaders are seen as being propped up by America, America also becomes the target of Muslim rage.

But where Islam is imbedded in a pluralistic, democratic society, it thrives like any other religion. Two of India`s presidents have been Muslims; a Muslim woman sits on India`s supreme court. The architect of India`s missile program, A. P. J. Abdul Kalam, is a Muslim. Indian Muslims, including women, have been governors of many Indian states, and the wealthiest man in India, the info-tech whiz Azim Premji, is a Muslim. The other day the Indian Muslim film star and parliamentarian Shabana Azmi lashed out at the imam of New Delhi`s biggest mosque. She criticized him for putting Islam in a bad light and suggested he go join the Taliban in Kandahar. In a democracy, liberal Muslims, particularly women, are not afraid to take on rigid mullahs.

Followed Bangladesh lately? It has almost as many Muslims as Pakistan. Over the last 10 years, though, without the world noticing, Bangladesh has had three democratic transfers of power, in two of which — are you ready? — Muslim women were elected prime ministers. Result: All the economic and social indicators in Bangladesh have been pointing upward lately, and Bangladeshis are not preoccupied hating America. Meanwhile in Pakistan, trapped in the circle of bin Ladenism — military dictatorship, poverty and anti-modernist Islamic schools, all reinforcing each other — the social indicators are all pointing down and hostility to America is rife.

Hello? Hello? There`s a message here: It`s democracy, stupid! Those who argue that we needn`t press for democracy in Arab-Muslim states, and can rely on repressive regimes, have it all wrong. If we cut off every other avenue for non-revolutionary social change, pressure for change will burst out anyway — as Muslim rage and anti-Americanism.

If America wants to break the bin Laden circles across the Arab-Muslim world, then, ``it needs to find role models that are succeeding as pluralistic, democratic, modernizing societies, like India — which is constantly being challenged by religious extremists of all hues — and support them,`` argues Raja Mohan, strategic affairs editor of The Hindu newspaper.

So true. For Muslim societies to achieve their full potential today, democracy may not be sufficient, but it sure is necessary. And we, and they, fool ourselves to think otherwise.

Dear Chowk staff:

I must tell you this.

Looking at your ``ENTER`` logo picture -- it just reminded me of -- Kabul -- after liberation by Northern Alliance - kite flying -- a woman without burqa -- playing with her kid on the street -- eerie -- isn`t it!

Dear hamzad:

“”If conscience,as a commodity,be sold/traded/bargained to do evil or then it also be expended to give charity in return for place in heaven.what would you/anyone choose?”(hamzad afaqui)

NOW -- one can understand the Jihadi’s argument for killing innocent people and getting killed willingly – it is just SELLING their “conscience as a commodity” for a CHARITY like September 11 – “in return for a place in heaven”.

Still – I don’t believe Hazrat Ali would propose -– to say the least -- such a dubious idea. Are you sure you aren’t making it up as you go?

Anyway, thanks for explaining, my friend.

Re: Sigalph

``... the politics of `azad` Kashmir where EVERY candidate for office has to sign a declaration of supporting J&K`s accession to Pakistan...``

You might also add the woes of the Northern Areas -- which have no representative government whatsoever. In `94 an elected legislative council of 26 members was established, but the only rights it has is to receive dignitaries. The Northern Areas are governed by the Frontier Crimes Regulation (harking back from the late 19th century), under which (i) villagers have to report to the local police station every month, and (ii) movement/settlement between villages is not allowed without prior police notificaiton

Rsaxena,

Wait and see.... these are Afghans. As for me being cornered... India and Northern Alliance even if together cant do sh-t to Pakistan, not that Northern Alliance will join up with India that is.

Still the point remains ... Northern Alliance are ideologically a mirror image of the Taliban... let us not accept them in Kabul.. Not for Pakistan`s sake, but for the sake of women of Afghanistan.

-YLH

Re: Stuka

``I go to Bentley College, but support BC for football. Live pretty close to it and have some friends there. You know people in BC?``

you watch that barbarism where men jump on each and ram into eac