Here Are the Muslim Feminist Voices, Mr. Rushdie!

I have not come in here to discuss the valid problems some Chowkies have with the 12-headed one; I would have then had to cut to size many others who abuse with far greater shrewdness, which some may call sophistication. You may or may not need my support, Samina, but I am with you for what you have been through because I know how it feels.

However, there is one mischievous post here...

Drumz (#352):

[Samina: I think ive solved the 12 headed mystery. Follow me now, temporal leaves for like a month and some 12 headed guy appears...]

This 12-headed guy has been around longer. And please remember that any insinuations about temporal will not be tolerated by me and many of us here. He is the last person to indulge in this sort of nonsense, do you understand? Get to know the poeple before you jump to rash comclusions about them...and then all your talk about godlessness and god will mean something :)

Thank you.

Farzana

scout,aicha

Re the lure of diamonds, well perhaps this is blasphemy, but I think its all nothing but a deeprooted DeBeers conspiracy in association with WE and daytime TV. I mean so much fuss about so little, diamonds look REALLY good mostly in large quantities, and when you are willing to spend so much, you have the option of feeding a whole hungry municipality for one year instead. OK, I`m exaggerating, but only a bit. And like our forbearing forbears, I too think gold will come in handy to sell when the world goes bust(there will always be some desi interested in buying).

OK peace, I enjoy jewellery once its bought :). Is Ruby in NJ?

Ref scout #: 296

[you can hate Muslims all you want, it just shows your upbringing. i won`t insult Hinduism, if that`s what you are expecting from me, in retaliation.]

Oh, YOU couldn`t take a joke this time, could you?

I initially wrote that I could get the equivalent of a lobotomy by marrying you. But since that was a bit more personal, I said instead I would become a Muslim. Maybe I should have said that I would apply for and get Pakistani citizenship. Would that have been politically more correct?

Harpreet: I have the ``life Goes on`` (my favourite track!!) single in in one hand, some reefer in the other. Its a private memorial. RIP George!!!!!

Samina: I think ive solved the 12 headed mystery. Follow me now, temporal leaves for like a month and some 12 headed guy appears...

re: prem

``To a man all those sparklers - diamonds, platinum, pearls et al. - are pretty useless unless they are, ofcourse, sparkling on his woman :)``

...how naive ...one day you will learn...save your money and buy yourself a sparkling new Porsche...if you must buy diamonds for women, buy em for your mother, probably the only woman who will love you unconditionally, and hence deserve them...just my two cents...

aicha #336,

hmmmmm, the reason men spend all those bucks on diamonds is because they are know women are worth it. if they were worth just as much, we`d do it too.

RAGE #340,

he can`t do anything to me. i just ignore the freak or read his posts as pure entertainment :)

http://www.msnbc.com/news/664935.asp

The ‘airlift of evil’



Why did we let Pakistan pull ‘volunteers’ out of Kunduz?



A convoy of several hundred Taliban soldiers evacuate their northern foothold of Kunduz to surrender to opposing Northern Alliance forces earlier this week.



By Michael Moran

MSNBC



NEW YORK, Nov. 29 — The United States took the unprecedented step this week of demanding that foreign airlines provide information on passengers boarding planes for America. Yet in the past week, a half dozen or more Pakistani air force cargo planes landed in the Taliban-held city of Kunduz and evacuated to Pakistan hundreds of non-Afghan soldiers who fought alongside the Taliban and even al-Qaida against the United States. What’s wrong with this picture?



THE PENTAGON, whose satellites and drones are able to detect sleeping guerrillas in subterranean caverns, claims it knows nothing of these flights. When asked about the mysterious airlift at a recent Pentagon briefing, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, denied knowledge of such flights. Myers backpedaled a bit, saying that, given the severe geography of the country, it might be possible to duck in and out of mountain valleys and conduct such an airlift undetected.

But Rumsfeld intervened. With his talent for being blunt and ambiguous at the same time, he said: “I have received absolutely no information that would verify or validate statements about airplanes moving in or out. I doubt them.”





Western reporters actually in Kunduz in the days after it fell this week found much to dispel that doubt. Reports first appeared in the Indian press, quoting intelligence sources who cited unusual radar contacts and an airlift of Pakistani troops out of the city. Their presence among the “enemy” may shock some readers, but not those who have paid attention to Afghanistan. Pakistan had hundreds of military advisers in Afghanistan before Sept. 11 helping the Taliban fight the Northern Alliance. Hundreds more former soldiers actively joined Taliban regiments, and many Pakistani volunteers were among the non-Afghan legions of al-Qaida.

Last Saturday, The New York Times picked up the scent, quoting Northern Alliance soldiers in a Page 1 story describing a two-day airlift by Pakistani aircraft, complete with witnesses describing groups of armed men awaiting evacuation at the airfield, then still in Taliban hands.

Another report, this in the Times of London, quotes an alliance soldier angrily denouncing the flights, which he reasonably assumed were conducted with America’s blessing.

“We had decided to kill all of them, and we are not happy with America for letting the planes come,” said the soldier, Mahmud Shah.



IN DENIAL



The credibility gap between these reports from the field and the “no comments” from the U.S. administration are large enough to drive a Marine Expeditionary Unit through. Calls by MSNBC.com and NBC News to U.S. military and intelligence officials shed no light on the evacuation reports, though they clearly were a hot topic of conversation. “Oh, you mean ‘Operation Evil Airlift’?” one military source joked. “Look, I can’t confirm anything about those reports. As far as I know, they just aren’t happening.” Three other military and defense sources simply denied any knowledge.

Something is up. It certainly appears to any reasonable observer that aircraft of some kind or another were taking off and landing in Kunduz’s final hours in Taliban hands. Among the many questions that grow out of this reality:

Was the passenger manifest on these aircraft limited to Pakistani military and intelligence men, or did it include some of the more prominent zealots Pakistan contributed to the ranks of the Taliban and al-Qaida?

What kind of deal was struck between the United States and Pakistan to allow this?

What safeguards did the United States demand to ensure the evacuated Pakistanis did not include men who will come back to haunt us?

What was done with the civilian volunteers once they arrived home in Pakistan? Where they arrested? Debriefed? Taken to safe houses? Or a state banquet?



WHY NOT ADMIT IT

The answers remain elusive. If the passengers were simply Pakistani military and intelligence men, and not civilian extremists, what possible motive is there for concealing the truth about their evacuation? Pakistan may believe that no one has noticed the warmth of its intelligence ties to the Taliban and even al-Qaida, but surely the Pentagon isn’t operating under this illusion, is it? This news organization has quoted U.S. intelligence sources as far back as 1997 as saying that ties between Pakistan’s intelligence service and al-Qaida, and links to the Taliban — a movement nurtured by Pakistan — are undeniable.









Furthermore, the United States can easily explain why it would have allowed a military ruler under intense pressure at home to adopt an unpopular pro-American stance in this war to evacuate some elite intelligence and military forces from a chaotic battlefield. But only if, in fact, the planes were limited to evacuating those people.



The lack of a forthright answer to this question suggests otherwise, and that is a great shame. The history of American policy in Southwest Asia, from the shah of Iran to Saddam Hussein to Afghanistan and Pakistan, is marred by one example after another of short-term decisions that stored up enormous trouble for later. We failed for decades to find common ground with the world’s largest democracy, India. We failed to temper the shah’s domestic abuses in Iran in the name of anti-communism and wound up with the ayatollahs. We decided not to rile our Gulf War coalition allies by pushing onto to Baghdad and find ourselves a decade later wondering how to deal with Saddam Hussein. We pumped Afghanistan and Pakistan with billions of dollars worth of weapons and military know-how to fight the Soviet invasion, but then adopted the Pontius Pilate approach in victory, washing our hands of these struggling nations as soon as Moscow withdrew.

Now, are we careening down the same road with a nuclear-armed Pakistan? Are we allowing an army of anti-American zealots to live and fight another day for the sake of our convenient marriage with Pakistan’s current dictator? I wish I could quote Rumsfeld. I wish I could say “I doubt it.” I can’t.

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hamidm #337 What people take seriously (at least in Pakistan) is their understanding of religion. Their understanding of religion is no better than their understanding of how to (and I am not referring to the majority of Pakistanis but to the religious nuts and to the corrupt ``secular`` elite like NS BB`s husband, and so on) live a good life. A good life means seeking education, being honest, being merciful, respecting all cultures and faiths, and so on. I have said this before on chowk, but find it worth repeating since these are the things that are CENTRAL to the Quran, not peripheral. What is peripheral are rituals - the Quran does call for prayers five times a day, but does not specify how. And indeed, enjoying this life as well (within limits set by common sense) is also something that finds mention in the Quran.

The reason religion is so screwed by is (I mentioned this to some folks before on chowk and would be interested in their take on it): Islamic theology, which should begin and end with the Quran, has been extended beyond the scriptures to include (a) anthropology (thus, the hijab), and (b) history (thus, deification of the Prophet via the sunnah, the glorification of the caliphs). Add to this the mess created by men seeking to gain power by dragging religion into (c) politics, and you have the tragic story of Pakistan and Afghanistan in recent years. Add to that (d) science (Islamic science, as in ``we shall harness jinn power``, as a supposed bearded nuclear scientist in Pakistan proclaimed, or as in ``Everything the west is now learning is in the Quran``, as another chap on chowk assured me last week) and the tragedy becomes almost a comedy.

At the end of this tragi-comedy: We have mad mullahs and a characterless ``elite``, and this is Pakistan circa 2001.

Time to get our heads clear on these things.

http://www.indian-express.com/ie20011130/nat2.html
RS angry with Imam for Shabana remark

PRADEEP KAUSHAL

NEW DELHI, NOVEMBER 29: Rajya Sabha members today strongly condemned the Jama Masjid Shahi Imam Ahmed Bukhari for his ??outrageous?? remark regarding Shabana Azmi, a member of the House, during a television programme last month.

Senior Congress leader Arjun Singh, who raised the issue through a special mention, drew the House?s attention to Bukhari?s description of Shabana as a nautch girl. He also pointed out that Bukahri, having made the remark during a television debate, refused to apologise for it, even when the anchor demanded that he do so.

Bukhari made the remark when Shabana, in the course of the debate on Afghanistan, stated that if he was so concerned about the US bombing on Taliban, he should get himself air-dropped at Kandahar and should join the struggle from there, which would be good for him as well for ??us??. To this, Bukhari responded by saying that he did not wish to contest the issue with a nautch girl.

Bukhari?s remark, Arjun Singh pointed out, was an insult to an artiste of repute who also happened to be a Rajya Sabha member. ??This is a very serious matter and the entire House should condemn it in the strongest possible terms,?? he said.

Several members from the Congress, the Samajwadi Party, the Rashtriya Janata Dal and Left parties as well as BJP condemned Bukhari. BJP MP S.S. Ahluwalia demanded the House summon Bukhari. Shabana, who was present in the House, remained quiet.

Chairman Krishan Kant said the House unanimously condemned Bukhari?s remarks but sidestepped the demand to summon him.

Hobbyty,

Adaab arz! I have a feeling it was one of my posts that might have given a misleading impression.

re: Serrano, Offini, etc. While I personally do not create art that deals with religion in the way that some artists do, I cannot deny them their opinions. I know that some of these art works have caused some people pain, and in extreme cases of group manipulation (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh over S.V.), lives. It was not my intention to bring these examples to hurt or offend anyone, but instead, to point out that a noble goal is to ensure societies that value and protect free expression, esp. in the interrogations of institutions. These institutions will not dissolve, if they are sound.

On the other hand, if these institutions (religious, political, social, economic, cultural) must force adherence or silence, then these institutions will create a vacuum of fear, stagnation, repression and will ultimately fail the people they purport to represent.

Many of the works of art we take for granted, challenged older assumptions and became integral components of a greater dialogue of this society. Art, in itself, is an institution, a culture, a society that has as diverse values as any other culture.

regards

nasah #318 ``Sufi Mohammad is back from `Jihad-i-Afghanistan` and has walked straight into Dera Ismail Khan jail.`` So this is the pied piper, as you say, who led hundreds of pakistani youth into afghanistan then quietly slipped back into Pakistan when things got hotter then he had expected, leaving hundreds of young men stranded or dead in afghanistan. I agree with you that it is time for the pipers of Pakistan (the mullahs who scream like madmen on Fridays, the generals who supported this export of violence to neigboring countries) to pay (to twist the phrase). But who will bell the cat, or rather hang the pipers? Hopefully the current government, or maybe an international court, or maybe they will be simply recognized by the people of pakistan for what they are and live out the rest of their days in shame and misery. Amen.

Shah 296,

First you messed around with Zahra. Now you think you can do the same with Scout. Man/woman, what you made of.

re: aicha # 336

``But I dont know how men do it - part with all their $$$ to get those sparklers for their women. I wouldnt do that for no man !!``

Therein lies the basic difference.

To a man all those sparklers - diamonds, platinum, pearls et al. - are pretty useless unless they are, ofcourse, sparkling on his woman :)